Just wondering if anyone could enlighten me about why people cut. It seems that cutting is a fashion nowadays....a bunch of my friends do it, supposedly in a "non-suicidal" kind of way, which makes no sense to me. Any opinions are welcome:)
~Aphrodite~

Well, apparently I'm old, because I have no clue what you mean by "cutting". Enlighten us?

Taking a razorblade or some other sharp object and cutting yourself with it....
Sorry for the confusion:)

I"m sure someone will mention how many cultures have things about ritual scarring and crap like that, but it's nothing more than another trendy cool stunt. Some kids wear backwards baseball caps, or all black clothes and make-up, or ride skateboards. Whatever they can do to be special, to make themselves feel part of some elite group, even if that group is elite only in their own eyes and nobody else's. A misguided and abused need for acceptance. And kinda dumb too.

Originally posted by Adam
Whatever they can do to be special, to make themselves feel part of some elite group, even if that group is elite only in their own eyes and nobody else's. A misguided and abused need for acceptance.I felt this way also, when I first heard about it, but I'm not certain that it should be dismissed casually. Granted, there will be people that are “tag-alongs” for some bizarre reason, but I believe that there are those who will scarify their body for the attention the need. I can't call this misguided, if they feel so outcast, alienated, rejected, whatever. I hit on this slightly in another thread (http://www.sciforums.com/t5640/s/thread.html). If "cutting" is done out of some need for unfulfilled attention, the problem lies also with those who are supposed to be providing the interpersonal relationships with an individual (parents, teachers, friends.)

I watched the movie "28 Days" with a friend who, although well now, abused himself physically as a youth due to being "outcast" and ignored by his parents. There is a scene in the film where Sandra Bullock's roommate inflicts a terrible cut upon herself and says, “It feels better.” When asked what it feels better than, she replies, “Everything.” Under his breath, I heard my friend mutter, “Amen.” There are people in the world for whom physical pain feels better than coping with their emotions.

Peace.

I agree, goofyfish. I had a friend of my sister who cut up the underside of her arm for various reasons, and she did it to alleviate stress and the 'weight of the world,' basically. Her parents took her to a psychiatrist though and she stopped doing it. Given the risk of opening up a large blood vessel or getting that metal disease that escapes my mind right now I'd recommend the psychiatrist before you start cutting up your arm, because chances are something is bothering you and the shrink could probably help you out.

Goofy,
You said it. I used to do this when I was younger and to me... I havent thought about this in a looong time, but Im almost positive it was to take away the mental pain. I used to cut my hands up, and I would concentrate on the pain of my hands that I wouldnt think about the real problem at hand. I used to put cigs out on my hand for the same reason. Physical pain is alot more tolerable than mental for people that have experienced lots of mental anguish. But I do think that when large amounts of people are doing it, its just to get attention and be cool. Like, "Hey look at me, I can take pain, Im cool."

Or maybe Im just getting old:confused:

Groove on:cool:

The thing I find interesting is that, unless I'm mistaken, cutting appears
to be pretty much a female thing, like bulimia.

Anyone aware of the stats?

Take care :(

Chag,
I think girls tend to be more melodramatic and emotional than boys. Plus its a cry for attention and you know girls love attention.

Groove on

*cutting appears to be pretty much a female thing*
Most of the cutters I know are male...hmm... That doesn't surprise me tho...we girls can be pretty big Drama Queens.
~Aphrodite~

Cutting, or self-harm as it''s properly known, is not a cry for help, a fashionable alternatve or a rite of passage. Instead, it can be the only way of coping with what seems like insurmountable stress for people who need a last resort. The reasons people choose to do this are many and varied, but almost all are for purely personal reasons - not related to other people.Rather than a difference in statistics because females are 'drama queens', the statistics are approximately equal. People who self-harm are often secretive, feeling like self-harm is something they should be ashamed of, and unless we learn to understand and accept this coping stretegy, regardless of how anathema it seems to us, this view will be propogated. There are many websites related to this [just type self-harm into a search engine].

Bill

Thanks for the 'self-harm' lead and welcome to Sciforums.

Found the following:Although the results of an informal net survey and the composition of an e-mail support mailing list for self-injurers don't show quite as strong a female bias as Conterio's numbers do (the survey population turned out to be about 85/15 percent female, and the list is closer to 67/34 percent), it is clear that women tend to resort to this behavior more often than men do.Didn't realize that males are pretty heavy into it too.

Take care :)

Originally posted by MutualDesire
The reasons people choose to do this are many and varied, but almost all are for purely personal reasons - not related to other people.Hi, Bill... welcome to SciForums!

I think I would disagree that the reasons are purely personal. Individuals that suffer from "Deliberate Self-Harm Syndrome" often relate that ther was a major change in their life -- parents divorce or death, a history of family violence -- and that they suffer from intense feelings of fear, hurt, anger, rejection or abandonment. While the act of self-mutilation itself is surely personal, the factors that lead up to it would certainly be impacted by those around a person.

As you stated, cutting is a coping strategy. Coping is a behavior, which an individual utilizes to get through stressful times; relief from overwhelming emotions, for example. From what I have read, many people who engage in this behavior see their wounds as a way to see the mental pain they feel inside. That by causing these injuries they are bringing their pain out to be seen and perhaps healed. That would seem to me a "cry for help".

Peace.

Goofyfish,
You took the words right out of my mouth :bugeye:

MutualDesire,
welcome to sciforums!!!:D

~Aphrodite~

Yes, you're right, for some people it would be a stress-related problem. However, back when I was in high school, people were doing it to be trendy and cool and all that crap.

Hello all - it's nice to be here :) . Just trying to reclarify my position:

When I said it was a purely personal thing, I accept that it can be caused by external forces - most overwhelming stress is - the reasons for doing it are not to prove anything to the world, or to appeal to it.

You are correct in saying that people sometimes self-harm to give a physical manifestation of their emotional needs. What little I read suggests 3 main reasons for this:

1. Physical injury releases endorphins which naturally calm the person.
2. Physical injury can be seen as 'fake pain' - while it hurts more, it is easier to deal with than the real emotional pain. I [perhaps wrongly] make the analogy between this and when I get a bee/nettle sting, it actually feels less painful if I pinch the area - because this pain feels less severe.
3. It is easier to nurture physical injury, and being able to take care of yourself can be emotionally rewarding.

It is very rare that people who self-harm will show off their scars while feeling the stress - people who used to self-harm but no longer need it are less secretive - but just because they're making something tangible does not mean that they are doing this in order to show someone.

When I am talking about this, I am not talking about people cutting themselves to be cool - I do not doubt that this exists, but this is different to self-harm, for the reasons I stated above. That type of cutting is stupid and 'folding to peer-pressure', whereas self-harm can be a rational action to take.

On the same subject, I've never heard of it as 'deliberate self-harm syndrome', or seen the people who use this tool as sufferers. Certainly they are under such stress in other places that they feel the need to take this extreme measure to alleviate it, but I don't think that it is an illness. Instead, it's a payoff between stress and pain which people rationally choose, while dreaming of a time when the stress isn't so bad that they have to use this.

Bill

Originally posted by Aphrodite
Just wondering if anyone could enlighten me about why people cut. It seems that cutting is a fashion nowadays....a bunch of my friends do it, supposedly in a "non-suicidal" kind of way, which makes no sense to me. Any opinions are welcome:)
~Aphrodite~

I don't cut myself and I don't know anyone who would.

First time I used quote:D

Originally posted by MutualDesire
...whereas self-harm can be a rational action to take.Could you expand on this thought a bit? I am having trouble getting my brain around it.

Peace.

Hey i asked my girlfriend she used to cut herself and although she's (almost) stopped she said;


"There are all sorts of reasons why people cut themselves. For somepeople its a way of being in control - in so much as "Its my body, My life i can do what i like with it".
Some people feel they deserve it - they feel guilty (often for no particular reason) and its their way of overcoming the difficult times in thei life.
For others its a cry for help - hoping (maybe that some1 will see the scars and ask about them - its NOT attention seeking.

People who cut themselves are deeply upset about something. Its not fashionable and i can't believe anyone would suggest so!!!
Its also NOT for want of being a Drama Queen!!!
You CAN'T call someone who feels the need to hurt themselves by ripping their flesh attention seeking!!

I'm sorry if this arguement is muddled but i feel very strongly about this. And i'm sorry i can't put my piont over clearer.

But here goes

People who cut themselves have NO choice! As crazy as it sounds, it something somepeople feel they need to do. And its not a subject to be approached lightly!!!

Finally, anyone who does feel like this really should tell their GP. Even if it feels like the end of the World there is always somekind of help availible.

Anyone who wants to email me directly about this can do so at SMP279@hotmail.com

Take Care
Suzie x "




Well there you go - does this help?

My second high school, where I saw people doing this, was in quite a wealthy suburb. The people I knew who were doing it did it specifically to be cool (dumb-arses). But I think the majority of people who do it would be doing so out of emotional problems.

Ok goofyfish - I understand that you have trouble getting your head round it. I don't fully understand the reasons (from an empathising point of view), but I have learned enough that there are.

My claim: Self-harm can be a rational action to take.

My justification: In times of stress, there are many different activities you could do to feel better. Many of these are payoffs - >Taking medicine has side-effects and can be expensive.
>Talking to people means risking embarrasment and you need to feel comfortable.
>Playing sports might be something which takes too much time, energy, other people etc... and might increase the stress.

I'm having trouble compiling this list because I can't really think of what I would do if I was stressed. However, some people have found a different activity - self-harm. The payoffs might seem extreme for us, but it can be an EXTREMELY effective method. As you self-harm more, the payoffs actually decrease - one payoff is that you scar, which becomes less of a payoff once you know you're going to scar anyway - and it gets less scary as you become more able to self-harm without risk of major injury.

I personally cannot visualise feeling better through self-harm, but I cannot reject the idea that others would feel this gain enormous.

Either way, it's possible to imagine self-harm as a 'black-box' coping method - the person who self-harms often is generally in exactly the same state after self-harm as before, except that they feel better. Given that, it seems rational.

The question then, is: is it rational to self-harm in the first place?
For the reasons outlined above, I'd say yes, but more extreme - and therefore a harder decision.

Keenan - I'd disagree with your girlfriend. My experience of self-harm is that it is a conscious choice made by people who are in an extreme state. I know that it is possible to exert control over self-harm, and the idea that it has control over its user is just a fallacy made to make doing self-harm seem more palatable to its user. Self-harm is not an illness, it's a decision.

Cheers for paying attention to my ranting...

Bill

Originally posted by MutualDesire
The question then, is: is it rational to self-harm in the first place?It must be the choice of the word “rational”, because the rest of your explanation is clear and thorough. By plugging synonyms into the sentence:* … is it intelligent to self-harm in the first place?

* … is it sensible to self-harm in the first place?

*… is it reasonable to self-harm in the first place?I am forced to answer “no” to each of these. Even from the self-abuser’s point of view, I cannot fathom that they would consider it a rational behavior, even in an extreme state. Is it an “understandable” reaction? I guess so, from their vantage point. A decidedly complex issue, especially as we are just scratching the surface.

Good choice of topics, Aphrodite!

Peace.

I have two female acquaintances that have engaged in “cutting.” One comes from divorced parents, one does not. Both females did this activity between ages 13 and 16. There is a 20+ years difference in the ages between these females. I don’t think cutting as a trend (these days) is a highly significant factor. It’s been going on for a long while.

The similarities between the two females (besides being female--and I do understand that males cut as well) is that both were/are constantly seeking attention; they can never seem to get enough; both have poor self images, though both are attractive or even “pretty” by many people’s standards. Both have exhibited a variety of other symptoms suggesting mental illness (such as ADD); both are very creative, artistic, talented. Both have/had high intelligence--the ability to make good grades in school, quick-witted, sharp sense of humor. Both have trouble accepting criticism of any kind; both feel they have poor self-discipline--no, or little, control over themselves or others. Both had good sources of emotional support from one or more various family members and friends.

However, both have the tendency to undervalue the support offered, and both have exhibited a consistent tendency to be deceptive (lying.) Lying is a way to manipulate and to simulate a sense of control. (And even for those who are intelligent and rational enough to know what they’re doing and why)

I could list several other similarities, but I think if a pattern is what is sought here, then it appears that the source of the desire to cut stems from the individual--and perhaps that individual’s inability to cope due to some type of inherited mental disorder. I can’t agree that an individual who cuts them self is, in all cases, lacking good parental guidance or support.

I do think it’s “cry for help.” And I think it takes the “right” person to help the troubled individual. These individuals want help, they’re begging for it, yet will go out of their way many times to prevent anyone from helping them. It is more satisfying, in their eyes, to commit destructive acts.

Inflicting harm on one’s self may be a way to temporarily relieve some kinds of stress, but inflicting harm equates to threatening one’s survival. Cutting = threat. Whether or not the threat is minor or major is another matter. (Some people do copycat behaviors, decide it’s not for them and move on to the next attention-seeking stunt, or they realize they don‘t want to do that kind of thing after all. (We might say: they grow up and stop behaving that way; they get their act together.) Those who continually cut, leaving scars, requiring medical attention even, and claiming to receive some kind of relief from pain or stress need help.

Either a psychologist or a psychiatrist experienced in dealing with people who have this problem is the source of the best answers to the “why” of this behavior--and whether or not it’s something to really be concerned about.

Food for thought...

~~~

Counterbalance

Before I begin this post, let me make one point clear: I do not condone, approve of, or like self-harm. I am not saying that it is a good stress-release or that it is to be recommended. There are a large number of reasons why self-harm is a short-term delay in stress leading to a long-term suffering, and before anybody considers starting self-harm, they should weigh up all the options - and if they think that self-harm is the only viable one, you haven't thought of enough.

Goofyfish - I see your point. However, I have never been under as much stress as other people have - and unless we can know what it feels like to be in this situation [not just 'having a parent dying', but actually feeling the way people who self-harm do] - I don't think it's possible for us to consider a better alternative to theirs - or judge theirs.

Personally, if I thought that I was under a truly unbearable burden, and mentally I could only conceive of one course of action which would alleviate my suffering overall, and the one way seemed easy enough, I think that it could be said that I was reasonable or sensible in taking it. However, I also think that you could say that not being able to create further alternatives implies something to do with intelligence. Regardless, I think that stress itself makes the sufferer consider fewer options - my stupidest decisions have been made when I was under stress, so we cannot judge the person's intelligence based on whether they SI - merely how much stress they have had to deal with.


Counterbalance - I think you are mistaken when you try to draw a pattern from a sample of 2. I do not know your acquaintances, so I cannot judge your comments on them, but it seems like a lot of your comments seem to be 'looking down on them' - and from a philosophical point of view, do any of us have the right to view ourselves as an authority by which to judge people?

I also disagree with your implication that self-harm is in some sense a childish behaviour - to justify this, you need to show that you have earnt the authority to judge these people, or that they have lost the ability to be judged on the same level on us - and I think you need a better argument :)

Just because someone engages in an activity which seems strange to us does not mean that they are mentally ill, and just because there is one possible explanation for their behaviour does not make it right.

"Inflicting harm equates to threatening one's survival" - what is your justification for this? when I pinch a bee-sting to make it hurt less, how am I threatening my survival as opposed to making it feel better?

Who are you [who are any of us - even the psychologist] to claim that these people need help when all that they are using is the best coping mechanism for the stress they feel. If they choose not to speak to someone, that is a rational decision, and you should accept it. It is rare that forcing treatment on someone is beneficial - and is this ethical?

MutualDesire...

I’ll begin my post by saying:

1. I don’t care what you condone or do not condone. Your approval/disapproval on these matters is of no concern to me whatsoever.

2. My comments were not meant as a reply (as in a specific reply) to anyone else’s comments or opinions on this thread.

3. While you are free to interpret my words any way you wish, I will go ahead and tell you that you appear to have misinterpreted my ‘tone’ and at least part of my ‘view.’ I am not, nor do I ever, look down on people who harm themselves, or who exhibit other symptoms of mental illness. I used the phrase “we might say: they grow up and stop behaving that way; they get their act together,” as an example of how a lot of people tend to view it. “We,” society, have trouble understanding the “whys” of some behavior, and “we” tend to generalize; simplify. I was not speaking of myself or of any specific individual.

4. I have the authority to make judgments with every thought that runs through my head. That’s what thinking is: a process of judging. “Judging,” however, is not the same thing as condemning. I have condemned no one.

5. By drawing a pattern from two examples, my intention was to show that there actually are similarities in some of these cases. I mentioned two acquaintances; I could have mentioned more. It’s simpler to make a comparison of two. At no time did I declare that all who inflict self-harm fit into one specific category--other than that of needing help. Self-mutilation, in my opinion, is indicative of a mental disorder. There are also a large number of psychologists and psychiatrists who would agree. Does that mean we are 100% correct? Not necessarily. All the same, there are indeed behavioral patterns present in such cases; they have been studied, and the findings suggest that mental illness/disorder plays a significant role. Will I provide such findings? No. All who are interested can do their own research. It does not matter to me if I’m believed or not.

6. As for needing a better argument... I’m not here to argue. I have shared something of my own personal observations because I, too, have witnessed these behaviors and know something about what these individuals do, say, think and feel. I signed my post: “food for thought...” I typically do not post with the intention of arguing or debating. I share another viewpoint, for whatever it may be worth to anyone, and the reader may think what they like of my contributions. Occasionally I will add more comment for the sake of clarification.

Just because someone engages in an activity which seems strange to us does not mean that they are mentally ill, and just because there is one possible explanation for their behavior does not make it right.

7. I couldn’t agree with you more. Nonetheless, many who cut themselves do have psychological problems. They may be minor or major. Temporary or incurable. These “problems” are often symptomatic of a mental illness, and there are often other problems/symptoms to support this. Frequently the illness is an inherited disorder. Could there be exceptions? Of course. And yes, a person can suffer from having to deal with stress for a prolonged period--and can become both physically and emotionally imbalanced. They don’t function “normally” by their own standards. The situation may be temporary, or it can continue and snowball into a much more serious “condition” of imbalance.

"Inflicting harm equates to threatening one's survival" - what is your justification for this? when I pinch a bee-sting to make it hurt less, how am I threatening my survival as opposed to making it feel better?

8. Pinching a bee sting is not the same thing as taking a razor blade to one’s body for the sake of alleviating emotional pain--or any kind of psychological discomfort/dis-ease. There is a significant difference. To assume that the behavior of slicing one’s arm open (even a little) with a razor blade because it somehow makes one feel better is a normal behavior is an assumption I’m not willing to make. Nor would a lot of doctors. If I’m wrong, so be it. As I’ve never told anyone to their face that they were mentally ill because they cut themselves, or have ever dragged anyone to a counselor, I don’t suppose I’ve done any harm. Still, I’ve seen this kind of behavior up close and often, and I know what it can lead to. I’ve also seen the “damage” done to friends, family, and supporters of the person who cuts them self. I prefer to not make the wrong assumption, and I’m satisfied that there is enough evidence to support the idea that, by and large, “cutting = threat.” We may just have to agree to disagree on this.

Who are you [who are any of us - even the psychologist] to claim that these people need help when all that they are using is the best coping mechanism for the stress they feel. If they choose not to speak to someone, that is a rational decision, and you should accept it. It is rare that forcing treatment on someone is beneficial - and is this ethical?

Who am I? As I said, I am someone who has seen this behavior demonstrated enough times to know that it should not dismissed as “normal” in all cases--indeed, in most cases. There are better ways to cope that don‘t involve as much risk to life and limb. I see significant benefit in learning better, safer ways to cope.

Who are the psychologists? They are people who have studied human behavior for years, and at least some of them have a clue about what makes us tick and why. Being humans themselves, and dealing with the “human nature” of an individual, they don’t always get it right; they don’t always have all of the right answers for every patient they encounter. Yet to dismiss the knowledge or expertise of these people wholesale is not a rational suggestion, imo.

As for “you should accept it.” Who said anything about not accepting their decision? I may not agree with what they do, or the reasons they give for why they do it, but I accept their right to do as they will--unless they are a child. A child has rights, but a child has much to learn. I submit that a child can learn to cope with his/her stress in ways that do not risk scarring, infection, or even death.

I hope this has helped to clarify my view.

~~~

Counterbalance

If I see someone doing this crap now, regardless of whether they use it to cope with stress or whatever, you can bet your arse I'll stop them doing it. Same as I'd stop them sticking their fingers in the blender.

Perhaps cutting is a very blatant representation of an individual's desire to cope with the ongoing oppressiveness of reality. Cutting literally makes people focus on the pain to the exclusion of other things. But it's only a fix. It's inherently temporary. Just as other fixes are.

What about the morbidly obese? Are these people openly engaging in self-harm? I'm sure many would not go right up to an exceptionally overweight person and ask they stop what they're doing, can't they see what's happening?

Then you have the avid exercisers, that think they have to just get that last pound off their bodies or they will not be able to cope walking down the street. Are these people harming themselves in an admittedly vain attempt at fitting in?

Smokers and hard-core drinkers do harm to their bodies consistently (and sometimes to those around them), but it's definitely a way of coping with existence.

Theists latch onto flotsams and jetsams of dogmatic driftwood to help ease the pain of life. They revel in the supposed beauty and godliness of God, sometimes to the exclusion of others. Their lifestyle can be quite painful to others. But it's a way of handling the stress in life.

Social recluses seal themselves off from their community (unless it's virtual) and bury deeper within their respective shells, emerging only for food and waste desposal. Even loners are loosely connected through a network (no pun intended). It's just their means of dealing.

Readers immerse themselves in worlds where the line is black and white and not necessarily so damn gray all the time. True escapism.

My point is that many of us have several differing ways of coping with what we endure in life. Naturally, I may not have defined all of the above to everyone's liking, but that's also the point. We each have our way of coping with whatever. I'm in at least two of the above and, of course, there are other examples as well.

Cutting is just a very upfront physical means of dealing with what we have difficulty dealing with in our heads. Doesn't necessarily mean that's it's wrong, else we're a world full of escapists (correct term?).

Thanks!

prag

goofyfish
**Good choice of topics, Aphrodite! **
Thanks:D

counterbalance
**I do think it’s “cry for help.” **
With all due respect to your opinions, I have to disagree. Sometimes it is an out right cry for help or attenion, but many other people do it and never tell anyone. I have a friend who used to cut and hid it because she guilty about what she had done. She knew she shouldn't be doing it in the first place, but she couldn't stop. She needed the temporary relief she felt. I don't understand why anyone would want the temporary relief just to be left with results they were guilty of. Why try to always be hiding things? Doesn't that just add stess?
Conversly though, I have a friend who still cuts and he tells everyone about it. He thinks his life sucks so bad that he doesn't care if people know, but I don't believe it is a 'cry for help' He doesn't want anyone's help, pity, or anything else. He wants to deal with it on his own.
Makes me feel so helpless because I can't help him. Therapy and counseling hasn't worked. If the professionals can't help, who can?? Any advice would be welcome.

~Aphrodite~

Aphrodite,

Nothing would please me more than to be able to offer advice on a subject like this; to be able to say something that would actually make a positive difference. Perhaps someone else here believes they can or should offer (serious) advice to strangers, but I resist the temptation because I’m aware of how difficult it can be to find the right help for each person--and of the potential negative aftermath when the “help“ doesn‘t help after all.

It is always possible that help can be found from someone who is not a professional. And usually, finding a way to communicate with someone--in a manner they like and will respond well to--is a starting place. Aphrodite, I could suggest many things but in every case we’re talking about an individual, who, though they may share some similar traits/behaviors with others who cut, is still an individual I know nothing about. I think it’s reasonable to say that such behavior indicates a problem, and unreasonable to jump right in and claim to know what precisely will solve it.

I’ll say this instead: If your friendship with this guy is a healthy friendship--both ways--then continue being a friend. Continue to inform yourself about “cutting” and, if you like, keep an eye out for someone (professional or not) who might be capable and willing to help... and be available to share what you know or have learned if/when an opportunity presents for you to help your friend find a better way.

And I also think it’s possible that the “self” can “cry for help” to the “self.”

~~~

Best wishes,

Counterbalance

Sorry about leaving it so long to reply, but I've tried posting a couple of times + it crashed.

Just a few philosophical points to respond to Counterbalance from earlier:

"Self-mutilation, in my opinion, is indicative of a mental disorder."
I think you want to rethink this sentence. Technically, deliberately bruising yourself is self-harm but not self-mutilation, and piercing ears is self-mutilation without self-harm. As it stands, you are accusing upwards of 30% of the population of having a mental disorder.

"It does not matter to me if I’m believed or not."
I think you're wrong on this too - if you really didn't care, you wouldn't post in the first place. That's the reason forums like this exist - for people to get their points over.

"[Pinching vs. Selfharm]: There is a significant difference."
I must be stupid then, because although I see a difference in some senses, I don't see how you can label any of these significant.

"To assume that the behavior of slicing one’s arm open (even a little) with a razor blade because it somehow makes one feel better is a normal behavior is an assumption I’m not willing to make."
I never claimed it was normal. It is an extreme action taken by extreme people in extreme situations. But I'm saying that it is a natural and rational thing to do in specific circumstances. I'm also saying that we aren't in a position to label it 'wrong'.


"I see significant benefit in learning better, safer ways to cope."
So do I, and so do people who self-harm. They know that they're making a payoff, and if they could avoid the payoff, they would. They just can't think of better / safer ways to cope.

"Yet to dismiss the knowledge or expertise of these people wholesale is not a rational suggestion, imo."
First of all, I don't say we should dismiss it. I think that we should take what data/findings there are - there is little research into self-harm - examine them, and decide for ourselves. I don't believe in taking someone's word for anything if I can help it. Generally, if they can't explain their reasons to me enough to convince me, they don't have good reasons.

As for a more philosophical angle, I refer to by earlier question - at what point does it become ethical to enforce treatment on someone who does not want a particular form of treatment?

"A child has rights, but a child has much to learn."
This isn't an argument against you; I think you've raised a decent point - how do we justify treating a child differently to an adult - and why can we say that there is a specific age where our treatment should be changed? Couldn't we always treat each other like rational beings and have that suffice?

Bill

Yes, I cut - and I just registered here so that I can give you with my reasons. For me, it's the result of a mild mental illness among other things. I have OCD, and while I have been taking the drugs, one of my rituals is cutting - I have to make the lines perfectly straight, perfectly spaced ... the blood has to flow right ... it's really quite a serious thing. I tend to do it more when I'm stressed out about someting - yesterday I had a huge fight with my friend, today I was in the bathroom, cutting perfect incisions around my wrist and lower arm. I'll agree that most of the cutters I know are female - doesn't mean this is a gender thing or anything, but I see is as a way to stay clean, and as a way to relieve stress. My case is probably unique - but I thought you may like a vew from the other side.

Hi Leigh -

Thanks for the share, and welcome to SciForums.

Peace.

Greetings Leigh, and welcome to sciforums. I haven't been here long, but they seem a pretty friendly lot.

I hope any posts I made have not been insulting or misrepresentative - I don't pretend to understand all cases of self-harm. The person I know who self-harms suffers from mild borderline disorder. Would you say that self-harm is a symptom of mental illness, a side-effect, a temporary solution, or a new mental illness in its own right? Interested in more personal opinions from people who self-harm.

Ok, Im new to this, so i dont know what im doing...I just regesterd for the sole perpos of this post....yes, i am a cutter...this is pretty knew to me...i think that people see there friends doing it...and they are stressed aswell, so you try it...you think that it takes the stress away...well, at least for me it dose...and thats how i got doing it...i know that when my family is fighting, i start cutting, and you end up focusing on the cutting, rater then things around you...and all the counsolers say that this is beging to show that you are suicidal...but i do not blive so, ya, ok, i have thought about suicide before, but i never associated it with my cutting....but i also have depression, but when i first started cutting, i was on meds for that, and it was under control...so, ya, thats my oppinion:confused:

Why do people generally start smoking, drink excessively or take illegal drugs?

Do they like the idea of contracting cancer, liver disease or brain damage?

Cutting must be painful, unless they are freezing the area first! I don't think that is the case.

This is another way of gaining acceptance or attention. Cutting makes you part of a group. You are accepted on some ritualistic level.

However, like many other things that we do in life as young people to be accepted and get attention...and I'm assuming that the people you mentioned are at least younger than 25...we realize how foolish they are after the fact. We age and look back at the things that we did to ourselves and cringe. Someone once said that they, "Waste youth and energy on the young, when it is the aged that really appreciate it!"

Unfortunately, no matter how much warning is given about such things...there are those who have to learn it the hard way.

Originally posted by Leigh
Yes, I cut - and I just registered here so that I can give you with my reasons. For me, it's the result of a mild mental illness among other things. I have OCD, and while I have been taking the drugs, one of my rituals is cutting - I have to make the lines perfectly straight, perfectly spaced ... the blood has to flow right ... it's really quite a serious thing. I tend to do it more when I'm stressed out about someting - yesterday I had a huge fight with my friend, today I was in the bathroom, cutting perfect incisions around my wrist and lower arm. I'll agree that most of the cutters I know are female - doesn't mean this is a gender thing or anything, but I see is as a way to stay clean, and as a way to relieve stress. My case is probably unique - but I thought you may like a vew from the other side.

any thoughts of suicide?

I personally used to be a cutter, and it wasn't anything I could control. I would get over whelmed with everything and there was no other outlet. It also stems from child abuse and can be linked to both Anorexia Nervosa and Bulimia
It is usually very ritualistic and has nothing to do with women being "dramatic" or "a call for attention" Most cutters hide it so well you wouldn't know if they were doing it or not.

Nanna

This is, i suppose, kind of a confession.

I am a knife collector, and the first time i ever cut myself as a way of aleviating pain was an accident. I was incredibly angry (yes, this does stem from some mild mental "distrbances") and took to sharpening one of my knives. The knife slipped and cut my finger, at first making me even more angry, but as i concentrated on the pain and the feeling of the flowing blood, all other problems took a backseat to what i was feeling at that moment. I used that method of "coping" for about 2 years before finding a better outlet for my feelings. Namely, poetry. I hold nothing against "cutters", but i do see the potential danger. My advice is to find another way to deal with your emotions.

I have been dealing with severe chronic migranes for several years and through all of it I feel that I have gained a tolerance for pain. I have found several ways to "block it out." But along with that, I have noticed that I have difficulty with anger management. For a while I tried music, but angry music made me more angry and everything else pissed me off because it didn't fit my mood. Then I tried exercising, but I would just keep going until I was in so much pain I would collapse. This led to self-infliction of pain. I have cut myself, burnt my skin with cigarettes/lighters, punched walls, I have even thrown my head into a wall once or twice. The worst part is it usually doesn't even help that much so I don't do it that often. I really need to find a good way to release my anger...any suggestions?

I first 'encountered' cutting when I found out my ex-girlfriend(girlfriend at the time) did it. I tried it a couple times but I have an extremely hard time intentionally inflicting pain on myself. It's much easier to hit brick walls or slam my head against them. Though this can lead to severe headaches. Occasionally I still do these things (cutting, head butting walls), but some of my friends look down on that type of thing so mostly I stopped. I can definately see where MutualDesire's coming from when he describes it as rational however.

Aphrodite
very relavant topic for the state we find ourselfs in, in this civilisation.
#sorry other posters i have not read your posts...
it is a crossectional manafestation of discord between
body and soul!
in other terms...
most people have an inate ability to identify the nature of truth
through actions and materialism in conjunction with capilistic or any other form of societal construct has a huge component of conflicting dualality.
this "state" that is used as a boundery peg for self realisation/self worth/values of self in relation to society...
are forced to render the individual to a point of contradictory
behaviour.
this is one of the founding (flawed) basic moral constructs.
i.e "hi how are you"
most people say this but have no desire to actualy mean what they are saying/asking.
the material hinge(action of group/peer pressure) is forced to place the person in a point of dishonesty.
the person then will attempt to 'flood' (psyche term)
the material while reinforcing the corrupted moral value.

ill leave it there in case i have lost you? :)
pm me if you wish to gain better clarification.

(i can cure this problem but it requires a face to face meeting/s
to found trust and truthfull response)

#####seeking 'genral therapy' is a good start!######

groove on all :)

peace light truth love
the path to that we hold above

Semen contains chemicals (prostaglandins mainly) that are pain-sensitizing and believed to be associated with addiction. These chemicals get absorbed into the digestive system (and thence to the brain) via sodomy. Sodomy is frequently concomitant with physical abuse (torture) and is often forcible. Not infrequently, victims associate the pleasurable and profound feelings caused by sodomy on account of the addictive nature of semen with the physical pain and violence often associated with this abuse. So to understand their (fake and chemically induced) pleasurable and profound feelings, victims try to understand the significance of the pain that generally accompanies these feelings. The victims (vainly) try to find significance in the pain, whereas no significance exists therein. The situation is akin to gambling or other reckless behaviors. Often abusive experiences happen to a victim when she/he is reckless, so the abused person looks in vain for some sort of significance to recklessness. The best approach for an abused individual is to ignore the feelings felt during the abuse, except superficially as is necessary to explain to protectors like parents what happened.

step314
Quote...
These chemicals get absorbed into the digestive system (and thence to the brain) via sodomy.
=======
# ? sodomy = ? (all women) and men through internal absorbsion?
are you saying that the reproductive orgins are completely sheilding the "uptake" of these chemicals?

i am confused with where you draw a line on your theory in relation to a test group
(aside from the obviouse perversive intrusions into the lives of unsuspecting... ?inocents? err to assume (?)... missing children reports of factualy inacurate???

Quote...
Often abusive experiences happen to a victim when she/he is reckless, so the abused person looks in vain for some sort of significance to recklessness.
=======
#how does this marry with authoritative abuse and torture, physical and mental.

i am concerned at the close affiliation to rightwing religouse theory to a self admonishing doctrine of denial for the diversaty of life based on ignorance imposed for self defence, post/pre abusive activity.

your thoughts?

groove on all :)