And so my quest continues in search of a self defence weapon usable in forests and fields.
I'm a martial artist, so I've got short range covered.
I know my way around with a staff, so I've got mid range covered.
I need something for long range takedown.

I know a handgun would be more practical, and am aware now that there is no use of a gas pistol, but I still somehow don't want a firearm, so what about going medieval and using a crossbow?

The drawback of course is that there is only one shot that has to hit the target,
and also it's bulkier and heavier than a hand gun,
but are there any other drawbacks?

It would sure be fun to practice with!

Please tell of your experience with the crossbow?
Thanks!

http://dsp.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p3538947p275w.jpg

And so my quest continues in search of a self defence weapon usable in forests and fields.
I'm a martial artist, so I've got short range covered.
I know my way around with a staff, so I've got mid range covered.
I need something for long range takedown.

I don't know where you live or what your lifestyle is like, but is there really a significant chance that someone will shoot at you from long ranges in a forest?

No, I'm more concerned about teeth and horns that travel at a great speed towards me, particulary wild dogs and boars.
The stuff that troubles me most are rabid animals.

I have plans for a crossbow from an old 50's popular mechanics. You can make one from an old (lightweight) car spring.

Its far more accurate than a bow, because the bolt flies in a straight line to the target, losing altitude.

The arrow from a bow flies in a arc, rising slightly after release.

In ancient times a good archer could get off six arrows for every one from a crossbow. They take time to load.

The drawback of course is that there is only one shot that has to hit the target, and also it's bulkier and heavier than a hand gun.
Dont want something bulky?

Use an arrowslinger!
http://www.oddwing.com/op4_002.htm

40lb max pull?! Surely you jest! 150lb pull is minimum for an animal of any considerable size,
but I bet not enough for a tank boar. And I bet range and accuracy for that thing sucks too.

For rabid animals, I wouldn't trust anything but a shotgun, maybe a large caliber handgun. I also go hiking alot, and I'm concerned about security. I'm frankly more worried about dumb rednecks than animals.

Long range, huh? Hmm...have you considered a throwing weapon? Shuriken, perhaps? Throwing knives? A handgun is definitely the most practical solution, though.

How about a bullwhip?

but I still somehow don't want a firearm
Out of curiousity, why not? It seems that if you feel the desire to go to such lengths to ensure your preparedness for an encounter requiring deadly force, you would be willing to go to whatever length necessary to ensure you were equipped with the best possible means.

I foresee a future for you that resembles the scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark, where Indiana Jones is confronted by a master swordsman, only to pull his .38 and pop him with a quickness. Seriously, when it comes to ranged weapons, firearms are where it's at and I wouldn't ever put myself in such a place where I was forced to rely on an inferior alternative at the expense of my own life.

If your worried about a Boar, it still comes down to a fire arm, or a boar spear.

A rabid animal a gun.

To effectively stop any large animal, requires a lot of penetration, and a large wound track.

Heavy caliber, 12 gauge slug, or as you say you good with a staff, a boar spear, but getting that close to a wild boar will be exciting.

One problem though, when I have hunted Boar they seem to come in packs, and they are very social and don't take kindly to loosing one of their own, I have been up a few trees avoiding them after I made the kill, and I have seen what they can do to a dog, great incentive to climb a tree.

Out of curiousity, why not? It seems that if you feel the desire to go to such lengths to ensure your preparedness for an encounter requiring deadly force, you would be willing to go to whatever length necessary to ensure you were equipped with the best possible means.

I foresee a future for you that resembles the scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark, where Indiana Jones is confronted by a master swordsman, only to pull his .38 and pop him with a quickness. Seriously, when it comes to ranged weapons, firearms are where it's at and I wouldn't ever put myself in such a place where I was forced to rely on an inferior alternative at the expense of my own life.

Indy use a S&W model 24, 44 cal.

One problem though, when I have hunted Boar they seem to come in packs, and they are very social and don't take kindly to loosing one of their own, I have been up a few trees avoiding them after I made the kill, and I have seen what they can do to a dog, great incentive to climb a tree.
I and my friend have the same experience - saved by a tree. Wasn't a pack though, but a mother in cub season. With my friend it was a close one.

p.s. I do not hunt.

Oh, and yeah, I might end up with a revolver, but I like to check out all alternatives first, because getting a licence for a gun in my country is a long process that requires I pass several instructional courses, two tests and various medical check ups, as well as have to have a good motive to own a gun. The last I have and I wouldn't have much problems with others, but it's still a bitch to go through.

40lb max pull?! Surely you jest!
I had a 35lb bow when I was a kid, and could put an arrow through a telephone book...as long as it had a hunting tip.

Lighter bows are more accurate....however theres also the question of velocity and reaction time.

If you watch videos of deer hunting on youtube you'll notice that the animal jumps as soon as the release is heard, so having a fast arrow can be important.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:meiv8fxW_dQJ:www.huntingfortomorrow .com/women_files/You%27re%2520hunting%2520with%2520THAT.doc+bowhunt ing+40+lbs&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

You’re hunting with THAT?

"How would you feel if someone told you that you’d never be able to hunt elk with a traditional bow? That you’re incapable of killing a bull moose, or a wild boar and that an African kudu is beyond your abilities?

From magazine articles, archery shop advice, and friendly opinions many women hear “You can’t kill an elk with THAT.” “THAT” is a woman hunter’s recurve or longbow. It usually pulls between 40 and 50 pounds at 23 to 26 inches of draw. It’s usually of insufficient weight to legally hunt moose or elk in Alaska and Wyoming, to satisfy modern bowhunters who like to see heavy bows shooting light arrows or to join the Professional Bowhunters Society as a regular member. But with proper set-up and careful shot choice, it’s capable of killing a big animal more effectively than a 60-pound compound shooting light arrows and mechanical broadheads.

Vic Berkampas, 61, believes in light bows. He’s been bowhunting with traditional equipment since 1959 and has owned Vic’s Archery in Grandeville, Michigan for 30 years. He likes to hunt with the lightest bow he can—ideally 45 pounds—because he’s more accurate. And Berkampas has found that lighter bows can be effective.

Since most states and provinces have legal bow weight minimums of 40 pounds to hunt big game (although some are less), Berkampas and his wife Linda, 51, have tried their equipment at game farms to provide solid evidence of light bow performance.

“We’ve done a lot of testing on wild boar ranges where you’re not held so much to game laws and you can actually experiment with light poundage,” says Berkampas. “I was down to a 32-pound bow and still shot through them…I shot [a boar] with a large 3-bladed broadhead (to try to minimize penetration). I hit ribs going in and out and it wasn’t any problem.”

Berkampas has also killed cow elk with 45-pound and 40-pound bows. He has a 29-inch draw, which gives him a longer power stroke than most women have, and therefore more force when his arrow hits. His wife, Linda has a 26-inch draw. Four years ago, she shot through a 325-pound wild boar with a 33-pound Black Widow recurve. Berkampas recalls that other hunters on the same hunt, shooting 65-pound and 70-pound compounds, weren’t getting even half way through a boar."

To kill an animal with a usual bow you have to do the sneaking up and be very precise on the area you shoot - neck, eye, hearth. It's not very practical and can only enrage the animal even more.
And I don't want to wound animal to cause unneccessary pain, I just want to take it out if it attacks me. Boars are a problem, because they require big force (like 200lb pull), but I'm willing to remain with that risk, because I won't lug a hunting rifle or a huge bow with me.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/3835/Chinese-Repeating-Crossbow

How about a bullwhip?

Haha, that's some BDSM shit.

Out of curiousity, why not? It seems that if you feel the desire to go to such lengths to ensure your preparedness for an encounter requiring deadly force, you would be willing to go to whatever length necessary to ensure you were equipped with the best possible means.

I foresee a future for you that resembles the scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark, where Indiana Jones is confronted by a master swordsman, only to pull his .38 and pop him with a quickness. Seriously, when it comes to ranged weapons, firearms are where it's at and I wouldn't ever put myself in such a place where I was forced to rely on an inferior alternative at the expense of my own life.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/CoolFire1227/indianajonesknifeLOL.gif

I and my friend have the same experience - saved by a tree. Wasn't a pack though, but a mother in cub season. With my friend it was a close one.

p.s. I do not hunt.

Oh, and yeah, I might end up with a revolver, but I like to check out all alternatives first, because getting a licence for a gun in my country is a long process that requires I pass several instructional courses, two tests and various medical check ups, as well as have to have a good motive to own a gun. The last I have and I wouldn't have much problems with others, but it's still a bitch to go through.

Which country do you live in, sir? Why are you so hesitant to equip yourself with a firearm?

1. Latvia. 2. It's serious, can get into trouble with it if I use it not according to law, which is quite strict. Every shot done outside of practice has to be reported to the police.

p.s. Oh, and you have to pass mental health tests too. :D They're fun. I've studied psychiatry at uni a bit.

;1715856']Haha, that's some BDSM shit

Yes and no. A friend of mine is a Hapkido teacher, and his latest favorite weapon is the bullwhip. It has greater range than kicks, it's easy to carry and reliable.

Just roll this around with you while walking in the forest

http://www.backtowild.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/costa-rica.jpg

So, ummm, anyone has an experience with crossbows?
How long does it take to arm a 150lb recurve crossbow?

Yes and no. A friend of mine is a Hapkido teacher, and his latest favorite weapon is the bullwhip. It has greater range than kicks, it's easy to carry and reliable.

I've never used a bullwhip in HKD...Sounds fun. But my fighting style is really, really aggressive. I fight to protect the things I hold dear to me, I don't care about getting hurt. But yeah, I didn't mean to go off topic.


Avatar:

Latvia, eh? How do you like it up there? Why is gun control so strict there?

So, ummm, anyone has an experience with crossbows?
How long does it take to arm a 150lb recurve crossbow?


About 6 seconds.

Walking around with a crossbow cock isn't a easy thing, it is more bulky that a rifle, even when it isn't at full cock it is a pain in the ass to carry.

It get caught on everything when you move through the woods.

Your talking about a thing that is 1 1/2 meters long and 1 meters wide, with catch corners where the string attaches to the Prod, that hang up on every branch unless you are very careful.

If your problem is wild animals, you should just go with an organic solution. Get yourself an Anatolian Guardian dog. They weigh about 120 lbs (55 kg) and for thousands of years have been used to protect livestock from jackals, boars, wolves, hyenas, bears and now in the USA, cougars ("mountain lions"). In Wyoming a few years ago, a baby Anatolian fought a wild boar for an hour and killed it to protect his goats. Lately they've been breeding them somewhat larger (150 lbs) and sending them to Africa. Two of them will keep a whole herd of cattle safe from lions. Perfect solution, nobody kills the lions so the environmentalists are happy, and nobody kills the cows so the Africans are happy.

We had one for ten years to protect the small dogs we breed and we're the only people out where we live who never had a bear break into our house. The cougars gave her a wide berth. She even scanned the skies and ran off hawks that looked like they were coming after our parrots. Sweet as pie, unfailingly gentle with humans. Bred in a Muslim land (Anatolia is eastern Turkey), you can be sure these dogs would never even hurt a bandit. But people don't know that and they'll treat you with a lot of respect.

Get yourself an Anatolian and you won't ever have to worry about wild animals or wild people again, and you won't need a gun or a crossbow.

Geeze dude, if I were walking through the forest and came upon somebody carrying a crossbow, I'd think you were one of the bad guys!

Avatar, how are the laws in Latvia on black powder firearms? Here in the US, one can order them through the mail and they require no registration or special license.

For protection against a wild boar, get the most powerful handgun you can get. I would consider nothing any smaller than a .44 magnum in cartridge revolvers, and a .45 calibre steel-framed black powder revolver. I specified steel-framed because a heavier load of powder can be used in them compared to brass-framed revolvers. Black powder revolvers are slow to load, but you will have several shots before reloading is necessary. Maybe the muzzle blast alone could scare off some predators, if necessary. A head shot at close range would probably be required for a quick kill on a charging boar, but at least you would have some protection if a tree isn't handy. Those types of revolvers would also work well for other types of 'predators', both animal and human.

Ruger makes one of the highest quality black powder revolvers that I am aware of. Something like a Smith & Wesson model 629 .44 magnum would be my choice for protection in the types of encounters you are concerned with, but it may be much less of a hassle for you to legally purchase and own a black powder weapon. And they are fun to practice with, but a pain to clean throughly. Stainless steel is, of course, less corrosive. Is Pyrodex or some other black power substitute available in your country? True black powder is hazardous and very expensive to ship. Most gun stores don't even carry true black powder for sale, but modern alternatives such as Pyrodex are readily available here in the states.

It get caught on everything when you move through the woods.

Your talking about a thing that is 1 1/2 meters long and 1 meters wide, with catch corners where the string attaches to the Prod, that hang up on every branch unless you are very careful.

Okay, that's a very good point and this could seriously bother me. I like to do sort of survival running through the woods.

If your problem is wild animals, you should just go with an organic solution. Get yourself an Anatolian Guardian dog.
Good advice, but I live in the city these days, and go outside of it whenever I can. I wouldn't want to restrict an Anatolian to an apartment when I'm at work or at uni.

Avatar, how are the laws in Latvia on black powder firearms? Here in the US, one can order them through the mail and they require no registration or special license.
If it can shoot, you need a license. Even if it's a 17th century family rifle.

;1715977']
Latvia, eh? How do you like it up there? Why is gun control so strict there?
I like it quite much!
It's a tradition imposed by conquerors since the middle ages. The latest tightening goes from the USSR days. Since in the beginning of 90s there was lots of gun crime, the laws are generally unchanged, even a bit better, because now you don't need a license for a gas pistol.

A short throwing spear (or two) and - this is the key - an atlatl to get some drive to it. No less convenient than a short sword on your belt, accurate to fifty yards easy, and hard hitting.

A grad student in anthropology (not a profession known for athleticism) down in Arizona put a few weekends in practicing, and drove a stone point spear through a one inch of oak board at a hundred meters. The old Reds killed bison with them, hunting on foot in a landscape of wolves and bears and no trees.

They kill boar, and you don't need to be studly: http://www.flight-toys.com/atlatl/atlatl_hunt.html The one pictured is I think long range - yours would be shorter, more convenient.

Plus you might like the sophistication of them, from a martial arts point of view - they're complex, rather than complicated.

Thanks, good idea!
I had the thought of rigging a detachable spear head to my bo staff, but a short throwing spear sounds really interesting!

Thanks, good idea!
I had the thought of rigging a detachable spear head to my bo staff, but a short throwing spear sounds really interesting!


This is that solution;

http://www.thompsonoutdoors.com/-p-151.html

Cold Steel Bushman knife. Hollow handle, and you could modify the end of your staff to fit it perfectly. A few neodymium magnets sunk and epoxied along the staff would hold it pretty well.

Oh, and have you considered a pneumatic speargun, instead of a crossbow?

And so my quest continues in search of a self defence weapon usable in forests and fields.
I'm a martial artist, so I've got short range covered.
I know my way around with a staff, so I've got mid range covered.
I need something for long range takedown.


Tell me this: are you just looking for something to plug orcs and goblins with, or are we talking ogres and up?

What an odd place Latvia must be.

Just roll this around with you while walking in the forest

http://www.backtowild.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/costa-rica.jpg

Don't be silly! He'd need a hill or something to use it properly.

This qualifies as the most insane thread of the day, as far as I can tell.

Good day.

Tell me this: are you just looking for something to plug orcs and goblins with, or are we talking ogres and up?

What an odd place Latvia must be.

I'd like to be prepared for an odd giant or a werewolf.

Remote gypsy tabors, oil smugglers, narcotic labs and crazy farmers are rare, but more frequent.
Wild dogs are frequent and wild boars are all around, but rarely come into view.
Rabid dogs and foxes are scary.
Wolves are a problem during winter, but I don't hike often then.

Oh, and have you considered a pneumatic speargun, instead of a crossbow?

No. hmmm....
I'm still thinking about two light throwing spears by the backpack. They sound optimal. Portable, fast to apply, ranged. The range and power is smaller, but will do for a dog or a enemy human.

What about protection? I reccomend breathable covert body armour (http://www.stoppa.co.uk/acatalog/comboLIGHT.jpg).

I hike in a leather biker jacket anyway. Good against rain, sharp edges and branches.

I'd like to be prepared for an odd giant or a werewolf.

Then you definitely want to go with crossbow bolts that hae impact-detonated sticks of dynamite attached.

haha :D

I'd like to be prepared for an odd giant or a werewolf.

Remote gypsy tabors, oil smugglers, narcotic labs and crazy farmers are rare, but more frequent.
Wild dogs are frequent and wild boars are all around, but rarely come into view.
Rabid dogs and foxes are scary.
Wolves are a problem during winter, but I don't hike often then.

Avatar, you'll never find one weapons system to cover that full range of mythical and unlikely threats. A giant you could deal with using an RPG or some other portable rocket launcher, sure, but it's going to be useless against a werewolf unless you pack it with silver fragmentation particles. That might be your best bet on those two fronts, besides covering more mundate, everyday threats like packs of wolves howling for your blood as they chase your sled (although I understand from Peter and the Wolf that you should just keep shooting the lead wolf) or drug-manufacturing gypsies throwing rabid foxes. An RPG beats a rabid fox every time.

Now that might seem to cover all your angles, but - let's be frank - being that it's Latvia you probably encounter your fair bit of vampires and ghouls also, right? Right. So you're probably going to want something incendiary to throw at them besides a frivolous lawsuit - which, incidentally, would actually be fairly effective against corporate CEOs and other lawyers, so you may want to pack a pen and an attractive law student with you.

But what I'm thinking is an incendiary round for your anti-giant rocket launcher, or maybe something with holy water in a canister. I've no idea if they actually make those, but it is the 21st century after all and military technology is making leaps and bounds in a number of areas.

Regrettably, serious inquiry is apparently not.

No. hmmm....
I'm still thinking about two light throwing spears by the backpack. They sound optimal. Portable, fast to apply, ranged. The range and power is smaller, but will do for a dog or a enemy human.


Avatar, you might want to check out:

museumreplicas.com

The sell battle ready weapons,

http://www.museumreplicas.com/museumreplicas/images/600036i/600036-1-M.jpg

The Greek Spearhead was the integral part of the principal weapon of the Hoplite- a heavily armed foot soldier whose principal weapon was “the long shadowed spear.” It was a weapon that varied in length from 6 to 18 feet, and could be used both as spear and pike. Shorter versions were used as throwing weapons. The earlier versions were made of bronze, but iron, once it was available, became the material of choice for the Greek spearhead. Made by Windlass Steelcrafts®. Overall-16" Blade-11" long, 23/4" wide Wt.-1 lbs. 4 oz.
$45.00

With the size of the spear head it can be used a a short sword or attached to your boa, and used it as a spear.
__________________________________________________ ____________

Although we do not know the exact form and shape of the Viking hewing spear, we do know that they were used. This is a spear that would thrust effectively, and yet have the power to cut decisively. High carbon steel blade. Slim and attractive, it is just a spear to carry on your next medieval outing. Pole not included with hewing spear. Made by Windlass Steelcrafts. #600444…Reg. $45…Catalog Special $39 Overall-25" Blade-16" long, 2 1⁄4" wide

__________________________________________________ ______________

http://www.museumreplicas.com/museumreplicas/images/0600592_d_000.jpg

$39.00

One of the more deadly weapons used by the Vikings was the halberd, or bill as it was sometimes referred to. It is generally agreed that the actual viking term was -mail piercer. Sadly there are none known to exist, so this reconstruction is based on details of the various sagas, and on a few axes that are known to have blades "like a halberd". This weapon was a favorite of Gunnar of Hlidesrend, Throlf Skallagrimson, Egil Skallagrimson, and many other Viking warriors. In one battle Thorolf loses his temper, takes his halberd in both hands, and starts cutting down the enemy. He fights his way to the standard, cuts down the standard bearer, cuts the standard pole in half, then stabs the Earl through the body, lifts him up by the blade, and jams the staff into the ground so that the Earl dies for all to see. Made by Windlass Steelcrafts® from high carbon steel. This is a must for any of those interested in the viking warriors of the North.
$120.00

;1715977']I've never used a bullwhip in HKD...Sounds fun. But my fighting style is really, really aggressive. I fight to protect the things I hold dear to me, I don't care about getting hurt. But yeah, I didn't mean to go off topic.


Avatar:

Latvia, eh? How do you like it up there? Why is gun control so strict there?

The idea is that you use it in combination with kicks and everything else, allowing you to keep your opponent at a distance, at least for a few seconds. And it sounds exactly like small-caliber gunfire.

Avatar, is it any easier to get a permit for a carbine or short rifle than for a pistol?

If you're considering carrying a crossbow, surely a pistol caliber carbine - or even a small bolt action rifle (like the CZ) in 7.62x39mm would be no less convenient. I would feel much more secure around wild boars with a carbine than a crossbow or atlatl. But then I'm a rifle sort of guy.

Otherwise, I'd go with the boar spear with the cross bar so Mr. Pig can't crawl up the shaft and get you. I would combine that with my walking staff.

Avatar, is it any easier to get a permit for a carbine or short rifle than for a pistol?
Even harder - you have to be a registered hunter.

Even harder - you have to be a registered hunter.Interesting. In the U.S. our constitutional "right to bear arms" has been consistently interpreted to mean guns that could be useful in combat without actually giving us the ability to hold back a despotic government. Rifles and semiautomatic rifles, but not fully automatic rifles and not rocket launchers. The government's position on handguns is that they're not terribly useful in combat but they're very useful in crime and also in escalating a domestic quarrel into a murder of passion. So you generally need a license for a handgun but not a hunting rifle--although you may be denied that if you're a convicted felon or insane. Shotguns are also not highly regulated just because they're not very useful as offensive weapons.

Because of these regulations even criminals often have home-made firearms. There are some very praised weapons smiths in the criminal circles here, who make even automatic firearms from scratch.
Then a lot of illegal weapons are said to come in from Russia.

What this has done is that there are no problems for big/serious criminals to have a gun, but it's harder for the mobsters and small time freaks on the street to get one, they basically don't have those.

Anyways, I'm still considering a firearm, maybe a Ruger revolver. I have a year 1912 small caliber Winchester, but it's registered on my father, a gift from grandfather.

I still think a crossbow would be fun, but I'll probably get a spear made.

Anyways, I'm still considering a firearm, maybe a Ruger revolver.

I used to shoot a 4" .38 Ruger revolver. Very pointable, manageable recoil, accepts a .357 magnum cartridge, so versatile.

For your purposes though, a 2" hammerless .357 would be great. Compact, easy to draw, and enough to stop a rabid dog.

Taurus stuff is cheaper, if available to you, and they make a .410 5rnd shotshell pistol, that would also suit your requirements.

I guess you need to go pick a few up and have a play.

If you just want to fend off various types of threats like dogs, wild boar, criminals....without killing them, why not use some type of laser device directed at the eyes.

You can even make one yourself using a powerful compact flashlight and a CD laser:

http://lifehacker.com/software/diy/turn-a-flashlight-into-a-handheld-burning-laser-287252.php

Such devices need a licence too. Besides try directing a beam perfectly in the eyes of a charging boar. :D hahahahahaha

Its far more accurate than a bow, because the bolt flies in a straight line to the target, losing altitude.

The arrow from a bow flies in a arc, rising slightly after release.

In ancient times a good archer could get off six arrows for every one from a crossbow. They take time to load.

How can it be said to fly in a straight line if it's losing altitude. Besides, I think you will find that the bolt describes an arc just like a bullet from a rifle.

How can it be said to fly in a straight line if it's losing altitude. Besides, I think you will find that the bolt describes an arc just like a bullet from a rifle.Scientific American did an article on the physics of the crossbow many years ago (1985).

I remember reading it because I was using a bow at the time. It specifically described the difference in trajectory path as being straight from release to the target in that the bolt does not rise in an arc like an arrow that must be compensated for. But no, its not a straight line like you would draw with a ruler.

...the difference in trajectory path as being straight from release to the target in that the bolt does not rise in an arc like an arrow that must be compensated for. But no, its not a straight line like you would draw with a ruler.

It just depends on the range. Archers often shot volleys, whereas crossbows were never really used as long range weapons, so fired 'point blank' (and I mean the strict, not corrupted definition), hence no volleys.

At short range, or shooting downhill, the arrow has no need to rise.

Scientific American did an article on the physics of the crossbow many years ago (1985).

I remember reading it because I was using a bow at the time. It specifically described the difference in trajectory path as being straight from release to the target in that the bolt does not rise in an arc like an arrow that must be compensated for. But no, its not a straight line like you would draw with a ruler.

I was kidding about the straight line but I am interested in what you say about the bolt. A rifle bullet, as you know, travels in an arc, so I am at a loss to understand why a bolt does not.

The recoil from a rifle tends to lift the barrel above the horizontal which could explain the arc. But a bolt pointed straight at the centre of a target would not not hit it owing to the downward force of gravity. This suggests that the crossbow must be aimed at a point above the centre of the target. thus causing it to describe an arc.

I would love to read the explanation you saw in SA but , in any event, I shall do a bit of research, as I am intrigued

I was kidding about the straight line but I am interested in what you say about the bolt. A rifle bullet, as you know, travels in an arc, so I am at a loss to understand why a bolt does not.
If you fired a rifle held exactly parallel to the earth, and there was no recoil, the bullet would not rise in its trajectory path but would lose altitude gradually towards the target.

Same with a crossbow.

An arrow from a bow however, even if released exactly parallel to the earth will rise slightly in altitude before falling, and this has to be compensated for by the archer.

The SciAm article had two pictures describing the difference, and also had a technical explanation for a bow's weird mechanics in this regard, but I cant remember what it was.

If you fired a rifle held exactly parallel to the earth, and there was no recoil, the bullet would not rise in its trajectory path but would lose altitude gradually towards the target.

Same with a crossbow.

An arrow from a bow however, even if released exactly parallel to the earth will rise slightly in altitude before falling, and this has to be compensated for by the archer.

The SciAm article had two pictures describing the difference, and also had a technical explanation for a bow's weird mechanics in this regard, but I cant remember what it was.

Well, if it rises and falls it describes an arc, albeit a shallow one.

If you fired a rifle held exactly parallel to the earth, and there was no recoil, the bullet would not rise in its trajectory path but would lose altitude gradually towards the target.

Same with a crossbow.

An arrow from a bow however, even if released exactly parallel to the earth will rise slightly in altitude before falling, and this has to be compensated for by the archer.

The SciAm article had two pictures describing the difference, and also had a technical explanation for a bow's weird mechanics in this regard, but I cant remember what it was.

Hi, I have just come across the following on a BBC site. You can find it if you google "longbow trajectory"

" The stock of a crossbow was slightly angled upwards to compensate.....
If it was aimed in a flat trajectory at a man's head it would hit him no lower than the chin"

You must have misunderstood what you read in SA

for self defense against animals, why don't you just get a shotgun?

Bekauz I'm not in ze Amerika. Yū trai buyz a šotgun hīr.

oo... right = )

You must have misunderstood what you read in SA
That some crossbows may be angled doesnt discount any of what I explained about the article.

That some crossbows may be angled doesnt discount any of what I explained about the article.

My uderstanding is that angling it upwards like a rifle would cause the bolt to describe an arc. I may be wrong.

Why not google " crossbow trajectory", look at the BBC site and tell me what you think ?

Bekauz I'm not in ze Amerika. Yū trai buyz a šotgun hīr.

Haf u no black market where you lif ? Vare is dat ?

You must have misunderstood what you read in SA


For sure he did, I used to shoot rifles and do archery, and whether the projectile travels up first, or begins falling, depends solely on the inclination of the weapon, and nothing else.

With rifles, if you are standing up, and you want to hit a man sized target in the head at some distance, the rifle must be angled up so the bullet can rise and fall. You perhaps don't even realise you are doing this, but that's what the elevation correction on the sights do; they alter the tilt at which do discharge the weapon.

With a crossbow, the sights are the same, so you'd angle upwards. (unless shooting downhill, of course!)

Now, with a bow, I used to shoot 'bare bow' ie, no sights, counterweights or aids of any sort, you have to come up with some way of judging the angle for a shot, and there are various methods, depending on your archery style, and where you pull the arrow. I prefered to pull the knock to under my eye, and sight along the arrow, allowing for offset (being right handed, the arrow would be on the left side of the bow) and drop, using my knuckles as elevation markers, and comparing relative distances against my hand size too.(works up to about 60m, after that, you need a bigger drop). At my best I could hit a 4" target at 25metres (we used to use Digestive biscuits, they were cheap, and shattered when you hit them) from varying elevations.

Of course, if you are shooting at any other angle other than flat level, the amount of drop you allow for is less, whether you are shooting upwards, or downwards. You would always calibrate your sights for level shooting therefore, knowing that at whatever range you have them dialled in for, the drop will be less if the shot is angled.

Of course, rifle sights can be set for two ranges, as the sights look in a straight line, and the bullet an arc, unless you have the sights dialled in to lie across the tangent of the arc (this depends on range) they line of sight will intersect the arc twice, one at closer range, and once again as the bullet drops significantly more. Perhaps not much use to full bore shooters, but lots of use to folks that shoot air rifles, being low power, these two intersects are at workable ranges, and using a parallax adjustable scope, you can use the focus bell to determine the range, and know which intersect you are closest to, and work out how much over or under you are. A quicker method is to use a laser mounted above the scope, to spot your target at your dialled in range. If you are closer, the spot will be above the target, further away, lower, and you can gauge drop using this method. (this is more use to full bore shooters)

Anyway, that's enough ballistic geekdom for now.

For sure he did, I used to shoot rifles and do archery, and whether the projectile travels up first, or begins falling, depends solely on the inclination of the weapon, and nothing else.

With rifles, if you are standing up, and you want to hit a man sized target in the head at some distance, the rifle must be angled up so the bullet can rise and fall. You perhaps don't even realise you are doing this, but that's what the elevation correction on the sights do; they alter the tilt at which do discharge the weapon.

With a crossbow, the sights are the same, so you'd angle upwards. (unless shooting downhill, of course!)

Now, with a bow, I used to shoot 'bare bow' ie, no sights, counterweights or aids of any sort, you have to come up with some way of judging the angle for a shot, and there are various methods, depending on your archery style, and where you pull the arrow. I prefered to pull the knock to under my eye, and sight along the arrow, allowing for offset (being right handed, the arrow would be on the left side of the bow) and drop, using my knuckles as elevation markers, and comparing relative distances against my hand size too.(works up to about 60m, after that, you need a bigger drop). At my best I could hit a 4" target at 25metres (we used to use Digestive biscuits, they were cheap, and shattered when you hit them) from varying elevations.

Of course, if you are shooting at any other angle other than flat level, the amount of drop you allow for is less, whether you are shooting upwards, or downwards. You would always calibrate your sights for level shooting therefore, knowing that at whatever range you have them dialled in for, the drop will be less if the shot is angled.

Of course, rifle sights can be set for two ranges, as the sights look in a straight line, and the bullet an arc, unless you have the sights dialled in to lie across the tangent of the arc (this depends on range) they line of sight will intersect the arc twice, one at closer range, and once again as the bullet drops significantly more. Perhaps not much use to full bore shooters, but lots of use to folks that shoot air rifles, being low power, these two intersects are at workable ranges, and using a parallax adjustable scope, you can use the focus bell to determine the range, and know which intersect you are closest to, and work out how much over or under you are. A quicker method is to use a laser mounted above the scope, to spot your target at your dialled in range. If you are closer, the spot will be above the target, further away, lower, and you can gauge drop using this method. (this is more use to full bore shooters)

Anyway, that's enough ballistic geekdom for now.

Agreed. It's all about the projectile falling under the force of gravity. As the distance fallen is proportional to the square of the time. it can be shown that the trajectory is an arc, even if one assumes that the projectile travels at a constant speed.

I have never used a gun.

I have never used a gun.

Well, to be honest, there's nearly as much fun to had with an airsoft, or air gun, as a full bore gun, except the first two are much, much cheaper to shoot, and far safer!

In fact, shooting old fashioned spring powered airguns is pretty good practice for moving up to real guns, a spring powered airgun will have more recoil than a 0.22 rim fire, so if you have good technique with an air rifle, moving onto rim fire target rifles will be a breeze.

If you do get interested in shooting, first check out the legalities, and make sure you observe them, 2nd, get instruction- learn by other's mistakes, not your own, 3rd observe safety, and 4th, more safety. It's only fun while everyone is safe.

All fery interesting, yes, but vhat vill he use against Gypsies, hah? Maybe he gets mirror to shoot backwards in so not have to look them in the eyes.

Have you seen the paper crossbow (http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/52325/MythBusters_Paper_Crossbow.html?rh=33537) they made on MythBusters?

Adam and Jamie unleash a deadly myth from a supermax prison, attempting to make a deadly weapon out of newspaper and underwear.

Have you seen the paper crossbow (http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/52325/MythBusters_Paper_Crossbow.html?rh=33537) they made on MythBusters?

Adam and Jamie unleash a deadly myth from a supermax prison, attempting to make a deadly weapon out of newspaper and underwear.

Paper and UNDERWEAR. Why do you bring sex into everything. Go and have a cold shower, you sinner.

That picture of the Canadian turkey you sent me is disgusting. The more I looked at it , the more disgusting it became. After 2 hours I couldn't take any more. I shall have another look today to make sure I am right. I'm a greater believer in being fair.

oh Myles you crack me up. LOL.
Uh-oh, and where is a crack....my perversions have gotten out of control!!!

So, is the Canadian pic still disgusting?

this is what i think, if you want a effective way of defending yourself in "the wild" i'd go for a rifle, a bolt-action rifle will do fine. the problem i see is that animals have a much greater sense of awareness and percieve things much better then we do so if it comes to closequater combat you'll definatly have difficulties even with advanced martial arts skills. there for you the animal must be dealt with before it reaches you. now comparing a crossbow and a firearm is easy: the firearm has a bigger range, higher rate of fire and is less affected by wind...

as i said before i would get a bolt-action rifle, it's easier to get a permit compared to a handgun or a semi-auto rifle and its easier to shoot. many people people shoot rilfes as a sport and requires koordination of breathing, aiming and triggercontrol. best you contact your nearest shooting range and ask if you can come by and try it out. i advise the same thing with the crossbow, you will quickly realise what will suit you...

as i said before i would get a bolt-action rifle, it's easier to get a permit compared to a handgun or a semi-auto rifle
Not in Latvia, actually it's harder to get a rifle - you have to be a registered hunter besides passing all the other tests and checks. You can get a hunter permit only after you have passed hunter tests (including practical participation in hunting), and I've no intention in doing that, because I don't eat meat and find hunting bad.

I have lots of experience with firearms, including machine guns, hunting rifles and pistols. A rifle would be good, but too big, heavy and noticable.


I've settled for a spear in addition to my pepper-spray, and maybe a ruger revolver, or a s&w model 10.

oh Myles you crack me up. LOL.
Uh-oh, and where is a crack....my perversions have gotten out of control!!!

So, is the Canadian pic still disgusting?

As I said, I am fair; I do not make snap judgements. I shall need to spend several more hours a day over the next month before deciding.

Can I interest you in my recent self-help book ? It's called:

How to live without sex for one hour a week

A short throwing spear (or two) and - this is the key - an atlatl to get some drive to it. No less convenient than a short sword on your belt, accurate to fifty yards easy, and hard hitting.

A grad student in anthropology (not a profession known for athleticism) down in Arizona put a few weekends in practicing, and drove a stone point spear through a one inch of oak board at a hundred meters. The old Reds killed bison with them, hunting on foot in a landscape of wolves and bears and no trees.

This is what I was going to recommend. My favorite anecdote about the atalatal is that when the Spanish conquistadors arrived in the Americas, they were horrified to discover that the atal bolts could easily pass through the metal armer they wore. Plus, the atalatal launching arm can double as a club for hand to hand combat.

Very powerful, yet simple, devices.

Plus, if you have a single long shaft and a dozen tips (the point plus another 6" of shaft), you can re-use the longer shafts for multiple throws - the impact bounces the shaft off of the tip; you can then walk over and pick it up off the ground at your leisure. Much easier than carrying a dozen full spears.

Not in Latvia, actually it's harder to get a rifle - you have to be a registered hunter besides passing all the other tests and checks. You can get a hunter permit only after you have passed hunter tests (including practical participation in hunting), and I've no intention in doing that, because I don't eat meat and find hunting bad.

I have lots of experience with firearms, including machine guns, hunting rifles and pistols. A rifle would be good, but too big, heavy and noticable.


I've settled for a spear in addition to my pepper-spray, and maybe a ruger revolver, or a s&w model 10.

A decent suit of mail and ring barding for your warhorse would probably go a long way towards reducing injury also.

It's very heavy. A friend of mine makes ring mail armor for medieval fighting clubs - not the stuff to hike in.

It's very heavy. A friend of mine makes ring mail armor for medieval fighting clubs - not the stuff to hike in.

I have a chainmail vest, used to do re-enactment and LARP. My vest is made out of quite thick wire, but is only short, and weighs 20lbs. Moving in it is OK, stopping or turning quickly a very different matter. Hiking would be awful.

I once got quite drunk at a banquet, and slept in it. My shoulders ached like hell the next day!

i guess a crossbow would be the most effective, heavy, but effective. also, i think self defence is worth a bit of troble with the law:D

No, it isn't. Especially if you are working for the law.

I have a crossbow which has pulleys on the ends of the prod. It allows a shorter bow to have similar propulsion characteristics as a longer one. It also has a pivoting stock lever which makes cocking easier and a little faster.