There is outrage at the identification of modern Israel as a threat to peace. (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1076073,00.html)

Ariel Sharon's government has through policy done as much for the international image of his country as has George W. Bush. It is increasingly understood that the rights of Arab Muslims, Christians, Druze, Jews, and others are suffering from the gross and institutional violation of their human rights. It is increasingly understood that Israel is setting the clock backward in Israeli/Arab relations, and on a course for greater isolation and tension. These are threats to international peace and security. Recognizing this is by no means hateful or racist.

Israel's senior military commander angered Sharon by publicly stating that Israel's repressive policies are backfiring on them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A44374-2003Oct30?language=printer

Pick anyone: Abuse him/her and family mercilessly and long enough and what do you get?

A "terrorist".

How to end "terrorism"?

Easy: Don't piss people off; Have enough collective psychological self-security to know there are no foreigners, no movements, no nations swarming to despoil what's ours, rape our daughters, convert our sons to hell-bound worshippers of evil.

Zionism is poison to all who fall for it. Unfortunately, even more Americans than Israelis have fallen for it, and are operating subconsciously and sometimes overtly as if we are engaged in Holy War on Jihad. It's Holy shit.

Sharon's time in office is limited, the CBC did a 5 minute bit on the Israel economic situation. It seems like a pretty desperate situation, the influence of the intifada, the rampant Israeli spending, the world wide economic slump have all culminated in a "perfect storm" against Mr.Sharon government.

Israeli Ministers and spokesman have also been at pains recently to insist that a definition of modern 'anti-semitism' should include criticism of the way the state of Israel chooses to protect itself, defining that criticism as an overt attack on Israel's survival

I love this bit.

Even Hamas wouldn't critisize Israel like that as the Europeans did , they will call it consistently "Zionist Entity" instead...

You know I am not a big fan of Sharon, but Hamas are also not exactly the friendliest of neighbours, do you think Hamas could bring itselve to the peacetable if a guy stands up with the qualities of the late Yithzak Rabin ???

I mean, given the influence of Hamas , it is rather pointless to attempt a peacedeal without at least a skeptic silent support of Hamas, are there any realistic proposals thinkable for discussion that would convince Hamas a hudna might be worthfull if a change for respectable peace exist, how would that respectable peace look like?

Breathing in the fresh scent of Spring
I had an epiphanal notion.

You can unify and distill anything
into a concentrated potion.

If it is love, it's a strong and delicious drink.
If it is absurdity and hate, it is poison.

Scriptures of the middle east are a mixed drink of both,
which makes it a delicious poison.

They drink their words till drunk on their Sabbaoth
and believe that murder has reason.

nucca puh-leeeeeeeez:rolleyes:

it has nothing to do with religion, scriptures, God, etc etc....

it's oppression, civil liberties, and fundemental human rights.

Israel is a US pawn.
The US wants instability in the Middle-east and Israel plays the part of destabilizer.
The entire Israeli economy is subsidized by US interests, the Israeli armed forces an extensions of US forces, Israel in essence is a US colony.
Israel’s actions are US actions conducted by proxy.
The level of hypocrisy in this area is astounding.
Am I an Arab sympathizer? Not really, I am indifferent to them.
But I do recognize their right to fight for their own interests in any way they see fit, or with any weapon at their disposal.
To do otherwise would be to have a double standard for human conduct.
When I am wronged or threatened I fight back; when I wrong and threaten I expect the other to react in like manner.

Israel’s actions are US actions conducted by proxy


Huh? I thought it was the other way around...

Well that is not entirely true; there is a religious element in the battle for the Levant. The Zionist entity is a sinful one, and as thus religion is involved. The Jews (real ones) don't recognize Israel as a legitimate state, because it goes directly against God's word. For Fundie Christians, well then we have the issue of the coming of Christ. See these Fundies see the Israeli state as their pawn for the second coming. They will support Israel to kingdom come (literally). In order for Jesus to come back the Zionist state must reach it's zenith of power, etc, etc. Basically to kill all the Zionists for betraying god, and the Jews for not converting. I would not be a happy Zionist with friends like those.

But you see Nico, the Zionists side with the fundies because they think the same of them. They feel that these Christians are false and will be punished by God. Just as the Muslims think that both Jews and Christians will be struck down for not accepting Allah.

True, and, but your even assuming that the Zionists even believe in God. They are atheistic people and those practicing Judaism and a Zionist at the same time, is paramount to pissing on a bible or a torah, or a Quran. The utter hypocrisy. Zionists don't care for "God" if anything they reject god and the Torah for keeping them behind for so long... nation less. The Fundies are just scary.. if you want a hearty laugh go here and watch:

A hearty laugh (http://www.thegospel.org/Pages/JVIM.asp)

Originally posted by and2000x
...the Zionists side with the fundies because they think the same of them. They feel that these Christians are false and will be punished by God. Just as the Muslims think that both Jews and Christians will be struck down for not accepting Allah. Which is slightly ironic, as the Christian think it
is the Jews (http://www.chick.com/search/subject.idq?SubjectScope=%2Freading%2Ftracts%2F&Subject=Jews&CiMaxRecordsPerPage=25&TemplateName=Results&CiSort=create%5Bd%5D&HTMLQueryForm=%2Fsearch%2F&Action=Search) and the Muslims (http://www.chick.com/search/subject.idq?SubjectScope=%2Freading%2Ftracts%2F&Subject=Islam&CiMaxRecordsPerPage=25&TemplateName=Results&CiSort=create%5Bd%5D&HTMLQueryForm=%2Fsearch%2F&Action=Search) that will be cast down.

:m: Peace.

:eek: :(

Originally posted by and2000x
Just as the Muslims think that both Jews and Christians will be struck down for not accepting Allah

Yeah that's right total bullshit .

1) From a religious perspective the Christians and Jews who have accepted G-d or Jesus have already submitted to Allah .

2) Submitting to Allah does not depend on one's religion it depends on one's self .

Originally posted by Don Hakman
Scriptures of the middle east

They have little to do with todays situation , as a matter of fact when scriptures did matter the Arabic world was at it's intellectual peak . The problems of today are political . There is no Islamic country that has a greater problem in scriptures than in politics .

Originally posted by Vortexx
a guy stands up with the qualities of the late Yithzak Rabin

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"

"The use of force, including beatings, undoubtedly has brought about the impact we wanted -- strengthening the [occupied] population's fear of the Israeli Defense Forces."

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein
and not with Yasser Arafat."

Yea what lovely qualities , Rabin you could talk with at a cretain level it does not mean he was some Israeli angel .

given the influence of Hamas

And what influence would that be ? They are nothing against the 35.000 strong PLO security forces , they do not represent the Palestinian peoples and the Palestinian peoples do not follow their Fiqh .

Hamas is popular because they fight the zionist most fiercly , because they help the poor and because take responsibility for mosques and schools that they have received from Israel . 700 institutions have been "handed over" to Hamas authority for supposed Islamization of the Palestinian cause so that would grow an alternative for Arafat's PLO .

Everybody who supports Hamas is an enemy of the PLO , weither they are Arab or Zionists , because the PLO is a nationalist movement that strives for a Palestine state first , at least they are more than their alliance in zionist resistance , such as Hamas or Islamic Jihad . Neither have any real influence , they merely have popularity by circumstance and outside stimulans .

If Israel would show itself respectable Hamas would not have the Palestinian support it has today .

True, and, but your even assuming that the Zionists even believe in God.

Of course, Zionists do not represent the Jewish people in any way. They are athiests. They were in Nazi Germany, they were in the Soviet Union. They are traitors to the Jews.


1) From a religious perspective the Christians and Jews who have accepted G-d or Jesus have already submitted to Allah .

Considering you know Islam better than I do, I'll just agree. Still, this sounds like a liberalization of Islam. After all, they worship a GOD, not Allah.

The show was hilarious. Thegospel.com is my new homepage.:D

Is it not simply amazing? I mean it reminds of... hmm what ?

http://www.nti.org/images/iss_br_30_dprk.gif

Ok now imagine Jack, in that pic. And instead of the NK flag the American one. Do we now doubt why these people should not be allowed to vote?

After all, they worship a GOD, not Allah.

Well you see that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same god. Just we don't agree one what he says. :confused:

*Also I suggest you explore that website,

http://www.jvim.org

for instance in the maps section. You will see that the Roman empire spread to the Pakistani border, and Ethiopia

http://www.jvim.com/invasion.htm

Yes I like Rexala, I can't wait for the coming of Jesus :rolleyes:, man these people worship death... I am a catholic and I am scared that these people are in the White House. And remember they claim that the EU is very much a dangerous and dare I say evil thing.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/cavex.jpg

I think we all have to understand that the scriptures are not exactly geared towards death and hatred. Rather it is our inferior human thought process which makes us think and interpret the word of God incorrectly. Now I freely admit that some parts of the bible contradict each other, and that it is nothing but pure interpretation. I personally get agitated at those who don't analyze the scriptures, because they are turned into JVIM's. The vast majorities of the abrahamic peoples are not violent or really even care that much about it. Jihad, Crusade, Exodus (I don't know what Jews do) are supposed to be defense mechanisms and as we have seen all have been perverted for politics not for religion. Also the Biggest problem with religion is that the fact that religious types impose, that personally pisses me off. I am a catholic but I do not impose my mores on others. I let the law do that for me, i guess I am a catholic-legalist! :D

Originally posted by and2000x
But you see Nico, the Zionists side with the fundies because they think the same of them. They feel that these Christians are false and will be punished by God. Just as the Muslims think that both Jews and Christians will be struck down for not accepting Allah.


Your level of ignorance is truly astounding. There is a vast difference between what Muslims may or may not say on the street regarding Islamic principles (for they too may be just as ignorant as you) and actual Islamic principles.

Muslims (or some at least) may believe that Christians/Jews will be struck down, but what is stated in Islamic principles is different.

just 2 stories off the top of my head to illustrate what I am trying to say:

1) This was narated to me by a Muslim friend of mine regarding the Prophet Mohamed. In Medina, a Christian delegation traveled to see Mohamed to discuss various political and theological issues with him. When they arrived, Mohamed let them stay in his own mosque (the Green domed mosque in Medina). Time came for the Priest to pray, and he was un sure at what he should do. Tentatively the priest approached Mohamed and told him of his concern. Mohamed smiled:
"Brother as long as you are my guest my mosque is your mosque, and you are free to pray in it at any time"

2) Another Muslim friend of mine returned from performing Hajj last year. It was his 5th Hajj in sucsession. I went to visit him to congratulate him. Over tea we were talking and I said to him:
"Wow your place in heaven must be safely secured"
He frowned at me, and went slightly serious (shit I thought)
"Why??" he asked
"Well....ermmm I thought it was obvious, you've done Hajj 5 times, and only once is required, you pray 5 times a day, without fail...."
"I do those things out of my own good intention, in the hope that they may be accepted. To think that my passage to heaven is secured already would be arrogant and un true. There is no guarantee of entry into heaven, only one thing determins a person's entry....and that is the discretion of God"

Originally posted by nico
Well that is not entirely true; there is a religious element in the battle for the Levant. The Zionist entity is a sinful one, and as thus religion is involved. The Jews (real ones) don't recognize Israel as a legitimate state, because it goes directly against God's word. For Fundie Christians, well then we have the issue of the coming of Christ. See these Fundies see the Israeli state as their pawn for the second coming. They will support Israel to kingdom come (literally). In order for Jesus to come back the Zionist state must reach it's zenith of power, etc, etc. Basically to kill all the Zionists for betraying god, and the Jews for not converting. I would not be a happy Zionist with friends like those.

nico, what you you say is true, and indee I agree with you. However the essence of what I was trying to say was that in the present day, the current situation regarding Isr/Pal must be considerd within the context of a political/human rights/right to land/civil liberty arena.

Zionism as a movement and concept owes more to nationalism than a theological doctrine. Yes indeed the ortho jews oppose zionism on theological grounds, ie: it goes against the Torah etc. but if Movement X faces theological opposition, whether it be on the basis of thoelogical principles or within a moral/ethical viewpoint, that still doesn't mean that X is inherently religious.
Indeed as you point out, the theological/Political lines are blurred when debating zionism, but when debating the actions of Israel then I strongly believe that it must be done so within a political context.

Furthermore I believe that it is in the intrest of Isr to propegate adn perpetuate the "religious" angle of the current situation. To do so detracts focus away from the real, pertinent issues of oppression/human rights/rights to land/ownership/ etc and the debate gets clouded in religious issues. This suits Isr just fine, because as long as the current situation is being "SOLD" as a religious struggle then Isr can point the finger and say:
"Look at those crazy muslims, fightign their emotional irrational religious war, jihad"
thus undermining the Pal cause on a PR front thus winning the media battle. As long as the current situation is a "Religious" one then this provides the right environment for the labelling of any resistance as "terrorism" and "Islamism" etc....

No we musn't fall into their trap.

Originally posted by and2000x
After all, they worship a GOD, not Allah.


Isn't "god" and "Allah" the same thing?

Anyway, I've always wondered why the West refers to Islam's god as Allah and not God. Bias? (Ghassan...?)

semantics my dear kajoly. "Allah" from Arabic dates back 1400 years plus. There simply was no word "GOD" at that time in that region.
"GOD" is western euro-centirc, not sure as to the exact origin/period of time.

I agree with all assertions made, but I do have one issue. You see me and you and some choice others know the context of the political element that is Israel today. See the issue becomes when your dealing with Juche, can i show you some Juche so you understand why it is ESSENTIAL for us to dis-spell the notion that Israel is a "religious" state:

JUCHE (http://jhm.org/support-israel.asp)

If you read all those quotes they really don't say under which circumstances in which the "Israeli" state could come back. See what I don't understand is if all these assertions were true since 2500 BCE, then why did the Christians oppose the Jews from going to Palestine, and why didn't they go back Long ago? Zionism is the catalyst, and reason d'etre in Israel's case. Why do these fundies all of a sudden support Israel after 20 centuries of repression? :confused: Also by chosen people did God mean the Hebrew Jews (who were a people) or modern Jews (who include the Chinese)? :confused: Israel, these assertions are all in a false context, even look at the side bar, all of them look German. Give me a break; something is wrong when this is used as "propaganda".

indeed.

here is where I think where some of the problem lies:

Everything Christians do should be based upon the Biblical text. Here are seven solid Biblereasons why Christians should support Israel

which text? old test or new test?

try this:

http://www.isaalmasih.net/bible-isa/tawrat-zabur-injil.html

i still need to chk on its accuracy

I think I believe in morality more than I do religion. I consider it immoral not to evaluate and criticize government actions.

To think that my passage to heaven is secured already would be arrogant and un true. There is no guarantee of entry into heaven, only one thing determins a person's entry....and that is the discretion of God"

Sounds like fatalism to me.

"Allah" from Arabic dates back 1400 years plus. There simply was no word "GOD" at that time in that region.

In Judeo-Christian doctrine, GOD is the being that created the universe, the universe is HIS creation, seperate from him. He is more or less the deity that lives in the clouds. ALLAH is more refined, since the universe is Allah and our mortal world is a collection of thoughts within Allah's mind. Allah is essentially everything. That is why Muslims say "There is no God, only Allah"

I think I believe in morality more than I do religion. I consider it immoral not to evaluate and criticize government actions.

Religion is crippling in that people are evaluated by how well they follow a scripture rather than the physical deeds they do. Julius Evola pointed out that things that were considered heroic and brave in the Indo-European tradition were demonized in the Semitic tradition. In Israel a man could go out and take vigilante justice upon a pedophile or a murderer by sword, but he would be damned as a sinner rather than a hero if he disobeyed the theological laws. Such a dogma creates a fear and envy of nature, a cowardice towards confrontation, and a longing for a dream world beyond death.

Perhaps now you see exactly what I what I mean by delicious poison.