I am currently reading the novel "The Great Gatsby" by F.Scott Fitzgerald. The idea of the novel is that there is a great amount of class warfare within it. The evoultion of the American dream from the revolution has been the "pursuit of happiness", and the pursuit of capitalistic profit. The American dream has been one that has been valiantly protrayed by the Ameican media, and has been linked to the American spirit. But the question becomes "what is really the end goal of the American dream?". As shown in the great gatsby the rich obtain wealth because they are inheirted. Tom uses "lower class" ppl as sex objects i.e. Mrytle. Tom uses racism as a leverage against the other "negros". Like the American dream itself what is reguarded as the epitome of this dream, 1920's an 50's were eras of rash racism. Is this the American dream? What is the American dream itself? Is it even real? Tom shows us the example of the ruthless captalist, isn't that the dream? Sexism, is male dominance also part of the dream? Is the American dream really just defeatism for those who are not WASP's? White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant's, or for real America?

Times change and if you look around you today there's more people of many ethnic backgrounds running government positions, on the TV, owning movie studios, music studios, owning vast amounts of land and wealth as ever before. If you cannpt see this change happening around you then you must not live in America. The past is still lingering and greed isn't only for the WASP's but now is withing everyones grasp. Changes are occuring as each day passes and more diversity is moving along with it. It can't change fast enough for some but for others it is like a boulder rolling down a mountain and they are in its path. Look at sports, the olympics, the arts all are changeing right before your eyes, just open them up to what's really going on.

It will continue to change but not as fast as many want it to. Patientice is still asked for as the wheels of time continue ever forward.

Is there really such a thing as this collective "American Dream" which you, nico, so vehemently ridicule?

Do I? Was anything there written out of spite, and/or based on lies? No... so what are u saying?

collective "American Dream"

All and out lie, your telling me that 290 million Americans have one unified dream... sounds pretty communistic to me. ;)

. . . yeah . . . you're the one you seems to despise Western capitalism in all its forms and that is either attempting to vindicate this dislike or affront any conservative windbags that might be lurking about . . .

. . . just saying . . . Fitzgerald wasn't catering to your hatred or defaming this nonexistent American Dream. . . he was writing a wonderful romantic tragedy.

Ahh so now I see the American dream is nothing more then captialism... yet in a VERY communistic tone all 290 million americans are following the same road to...???? I don't despise western capitalism of course not, I think if it used right then it's ok. But with globalization et all...capitalism has reached beyond her limits. And evidently so has the American dream, the US is too small so let's export forcibly to other "non-dreaming" states, i.e. Iraq.

There is no "American Dream," nico.

Capitalism is only the best viable socio-economic arrangement. It is nothing more than such, nico.

Well as long as we all realize that the American dream is nothing more then a media mechination. I am happy. :D

what the FUCK is the American Dream
there are so many versions of the American Dream

For Chrissakes, bud, did I not just state that it doesn't exist?

Learn to fucking read.
~Xev~

Well if you're enjoying "The Great Gadsby" I highly reccomend renting "American Beauty" which to me seems like a Great Gadsby for the 90's. It's got more of that great dissilusionism that you're trying to put into words in this thread, only in a more recent time frame. Oddly enough it ends in pretty much the same was as Gadsby, as well, I'll have to rent the DVD and see if maybe that was intentional.

Well I think this is kinda mute, since most of the people on this forum appear to be american, and from the poll, most people don't believe this to be anything more then a myth.

Nico:

When you finally come to realize that your existence is as worthless as it truly is, do your family a favor and slice your wrists in the bathtub. This way they can simply wash you down the drain and save themselves the trouble of having to clean you up off of the upholstry like most morons so inconsiderately would choose as their place of death. "God knows" you've been more than enough of a burden on them for the past 16 years... :)

Well . . . that was uncalled for, now wasn't it?

of course there is an american dream...havent read death of a salesman?

its a stereotype for sure but its there...as part of a unique idiosincrasy of usa

and im afraid nico might be right:p

Originally posted by nico
with globalization et all...capitalism has reached beyond her limits.


What limit do you think it should have? America's interests are that of Capitalism with a touch of socialism. It will use its considerable power to ensure its interests are protected. That is the function OF ANY GOVERNMENT. I don't think there is a defined limit. The limits set themselves in terms of resistance and limited sphere of influence. Technically it's America's job to ensure that the rest of the world plays in a way that makes America stronger. The beauty of capitalism is that if America do that, the world benefits just as much.
Originally posted by nico

And evidently so has the American dream, the US is too small so let's export forcibly to other "non-dreaming" states, i.e. Iraq.


I happend to watch Collin Quinn's show on comedy central the other night when he had some intellectual type of fellow on his panel for a change. He was some english author type. He has been in Iraq sine the war and spent a hell of a lot of time in the region. His comment (as with most soldiers I've heard comment on the same) was that the people of Iraq by and large were incredibly please that we invaded.

That said, SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT YOUR IMPERIALISTIC CHARGES ALREADY. It's fucking tiresome. (not to pick on you in particular nico, it's just that it's OVER already, we invaded, Iraq is better off for it, get over it people).

You're right that Bush lied to the world about their reasons for going to war. He had to because people simply don't understand the struggle for global domination. I think he's perfectly justified in doing so. He didn't make shit up, he merely made a case from evidence they had. I'm not sure if he knew it was weak or if it even was at the time. Sadaam spent the months before the invasion moving all of his bullshit to Syria or wherever because that was his best hope in making Bush look bad. It worked and is now in the process of tearing into this country and Sadaam sits bad and laughs and laughs and laughs because a bunch of overly optimistic people expect honesty from politicians.

I think it's easy to see that if you expect honesty from politicians you're FAR too optimistic.

Originally posted by nico
Well as long as we all realize that the American dream is nothing more then a media mechination. I am happy. :D

It's both true and untrue.

In America, it's up to you. You have a chance to get rich. There is a chance you can live a decent life either way.

You are thinking of the bullshit. The american dream isn't bullshit, it's just twisted by people who don't understand it and want to make it appear however blah blah blah.

The TRUE American Dream is this: You are responsible for your own degree of success and there is no top end. Fabulous riches await the incredibly motivated. That's why capitalism works - it's a motivator.

Communism and socialism don't motivate shit besides totalitarianism and fear and death. Sure doesn't motivate a person to go be productive. Unless people as a whole are productive - we die. Capitalism will win.

I hope you choke on shit. Considering that it seems you been eating it since you were born.

wesmorris

Aww.. how cute, are in the biz of reality supression to?

The beauty of capitalism is that if America do that, the world benefits just as much.


That is such a bold faced lie, I cannot believe you can type that down with a straight face! Your telling me that the slave workers in Central America or Indonesia, etc are benefiting from America's prosperity? I think not they are living on $1 a day, if not less. So you can have your Nike shoes be payed a ridiculously high price considering the wages and the price of the shoes. That is American capitalism man, don't supress the obvious.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT YOUR IMPERIALISTIC CHARGES ALREADY.

Sorry, you should have said the same thing to the Nazi's back in the 40's because you Americans sound no different. When the USSR invaded Afghanistan in the 80's oh u couldn't stop hearing about Soviet imperialism. Yet now the tables have turned and the US is doing worse then the Soviets ever did. The charges are warranted and they are real. The only thing that isn't real (I hope) is American gullibilty shown by this.

Iraq is better off for it

Of course which again.. "a lie.. yes a lie."(Mr.Humphries Are you being served) *lol* Iraq is not better off at all. At the very least all three factions of Iraq were pacified under Saddam, at least there was some assembalance of security. Now what? Al Qaeda had to be established in Iraq... funny that.

It worked and is now in the process of tearing into this country and Sadaam sits bad and laughs and laughs and laughs because a bunch of overly optimistic people expect honesty from politicians.


I laugh how anyone could be so laissez affairs with this issue of WAR. Clinton was impeached for lying about a fucking Blow job! The world laughs at the US again.

Communism and socialism don't motivate shit besides totalitarianism and fear and death

Please don't talk out of ur ass man. Socialism nor communism say anything about totalitarianism, or all the lies you promote. The Soviet experiance did, yes. But they were NOT communist. SO please don't abuse a valid theory.

/Aww.. how cute, are in the biz of reality supression to?

That's chilidish.

/That is such a bold faced lie, I cannot believe you can type that down with a straight face!

No it is an opinion contrary to your. If you think because I hold a different opinion from you, you set us up as enemies. Is that your desire? That's pretty fucked up nico.

/Your telling me that the slave workers in Central America or Indonesia, etc are benefiting from America's prosperity?

Okay Nico: How about if the US doesn't buy their stuff? Do you think all of the sudden their economies will pick right up? Those countries are fucked because of corruption and poor leadership. I don't like it but that doesn't change it.

/I think not they are living on $1 a day, if not less. So you can have your Nike shoes be payed a ridiculously high price considering the wages and the price of the shoes.

That is a very simplistic notion of the situation. How about if Nike doesn't give them the $1 per day and they starve to death quicker? Personally I think they should stop it because the country should be reinvesting in itself but there are a lot of business men who only see the bottom line as the bottom line, when in fact money is not everything. Greed is the culprit and it's unavoidable. Fact is that capitalism accounts for it, whereas other systems try to pretend it's not happening. Bad idea. On the other hand, it's important to regulate to an extent so people don't get to be huge theives.

/That is American capitalism man, don't supress the obvious.

Didn't.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT YOUR IMPERIALISTIC CHARGES ALREADY.

/Sorry, you should have said the same thing to the Nazi's back in the 40's because you Americans sound no different.

That's a stupid assertion and not at issue. Nazis? Please.

/When the USSR invaded Afghanistan in the 80's oh u couldn't stop hearing about Soviet imperialism.

That's not at issue.

/Yet now the tables have turned and the US is doing worse then the Soviets ever did.

You can't back that up. The soviets invaded and encompassed. We invade, change shit around and give it back to the people. We will not be taking taxes or ruples from Iraqis.

You know what nico? Your debate style is ridiculous. You just call everything a lie and spew your leftist propaganda. I refuse to debate if that's all you have. You sound like a whining 12 year old.

Is it? Or is your ridiculously inept worldview making you say this?

No it is an opinion contrary to your. If you think because I hold a different opinion from you, you set us up as enemies. Is that your desire? That's pretty fucked up nico.

It would be a opinion if the UN didn't say that 85 countries are worse off since 1990. What is pretty fucked up is the simplistic nature of your arguments. Yes/No, childish/please, those are ur arguments.

Okay Nico: How about if the US doesn't buy their stuff? Do you think all of the sudden their economies will pick right up? Those countries are fucked because of corruption and poor leadership. I don't like it but that doesn't change it.

Excuse me man, but who is benefiting from those economies growth? Most likely not the ppl who live in them. The government officials and the corporate head office in New York, or London or where ever. Globalization and capitalism thrive on individuality and ineqity. There must be a poor under class to prop up the upper classes.

How about if Nike doesn't give them the $1 per day and they starve to death quicker?

That is a worse death then, a slow, emotionally painful one I should say. The end result is the same isn't it? Death, death of the individual and of society at large. Also that is the same mentality of the Soviet gulag, let them work until they die.

On the other hand, it's important to regulate to an extent so people don't get to be huge theives.


Then we aren't talking capitalism here my friend. We are talking pseduo-capitalism.

That's a stupid assertion and not at issue. Nazis? Please.


Why is it a stupid assertion? Can you ppl explain not just refute because it sounds bad. You and the Nazi's, the NK's, the Soviets, etc. All had the same worldview, my way is better and i know it. And i am going to enforce it.

That's not at issue.


Of course it is, not only are u showing your hypocracy. Your showing your utter ineptitute on international relations.

You can't back that up. The soviets invaded and encompassed. We invade, change shit around and give it back to the people. We will not be taking taxes or ruples from Iraqis.


And who was able to keep the Afghan's down? The Soviets much better then you Americans. 1 million dead Afghani's kept the USSR in there for 10 years, the US can't stay in for more then 4 i'd bet.

You know what nico? Your debate style is ridiculous.

Moi!!! Ok, Mr. reality supression.

You sound like a whining 12 year old.

Keep ur subjective stupidity to yourself please.

/Is it? Or is your ridiculously inept worldview making you say this?

Logical fallacy. You have called it inept but shown no evidence as such.

/Excuse me man, but who is benefiting from those economies growth?

The US and the corrupt members of the governments in question.

/Most likely not the ppl who live in them.

True but that's no the fault of the US.

/The government officials and the corporate head office in New York, or London or where ever. Globalization and capitalism thrive on individuality and ineqity. There must be a poor under class to prop up the upper classes.

There are always strong and weak. If you deny this your are sticking your head in the sand.

/That is a worse death then, a slow, emotionally painful one I should say.

Yes, pretty bad. I don't like it.

/The end result is the same isn't it? Death, death of the individual and of society at large.

It is inevitable for all of both.

/Also that is the same mentality of the Soviet gulag, let them work until they die.

That is not the fault of the US.

/Then we aren't talking capitalism here my friend. We are talking pseduo-capitalism.

Pardon, I assumed that implied.

/Why is it a stupid assertion? Can you ppl explain not just refute because it sounds bad.

It seemed ridiculous enough not to bother. It still does.

/You and the Nazi's, the NK's, the Soviets, etc.

That's silly, you don't know exactly what my worldview is apparently. It's kind of complicated. See that thread I started a while back called 'the international struggle for world domination' or whatever.

/All had the same worldview, my way is better and i know it. And i am going to enforce it.

That's debatable but I'm short on time.

Originally posted by wesmorris
America's interests are that of Capitalism with a touch of socialism.

Clearly that touch of socialism is less of a touch in compare to all the other touches along the capitalist interests in the first world .

Socialism in Amerikan context is of little value if we compare them with their other "socialist" friends .

Naturally perhaps , Amerika stands on top if we measure it on capitalism .

It will use its considerable power to ensure its interests are protected. That is the function OF ANY GOVERNMENT.

That is indisputable , however the problem would rather deal with the exact issues themselves considered of Amerikan interest . Ofcourse I am aware it is considered only natural for a nation to put its own interests first , however regarding egoist desires equal to ones first interests is a logical error . This error relies on misidentifying a nation as an individual . There cannot be national egoism , the national that is to be egoist has no real existance . Your massive identity of 280 million cannot experience as a whole , its is imaginary through patriotism based on a flag and a song .

Technically it's America's job to ensure that the rest of the world plays in a way that makes America stronger. The beauty of capitalism is that if America do that, the world benefits just as much.

Complete bullshit . By making the world play in a way that makes Amerika stronger , has in no way the necesarry (or common) result that world benefits , and when there is any benefit anywhere it clearly is not as much . Capitalism is based in its core in in-equality regarding benefit of various parties , that is the exact dynamic that makes it profitable to to any business .

soapbox

Your soapbox should be shot . Why ? Because :

the people of Iraq by and large were incredibly please that wel
invaded.

Iraq is better off for it

I do not hope wesmorris that this is what you actually believe . It would be simply to ignorant for you . And that is what would really piss me off , if you actually indeed assert these issues as facts , is that you consciously lie about peoples misery and horror .

That would be completely disgusting .

No tell me that you did not assert those issues as facts or tell me you have no idea what you are talking about and just rambling shit .

As for the rest of the bullshit in your soapbox :

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT YOUR IMPERIALISTIC CHARGES ALREADY

You would say the same if you were a killer and charged for murder would you not ? That would be the logical thing to do if you would maintain this position .

Stop being imperialist , and these charges you are crying about will be dropped .

I think he's perfectly justified in doing so

How is global domination justified . Bring in the ethics please . Since I can I will foretell : Ayn rand , correct ? Just say yes and make your case please . Statements of moral disprovements in themselves are worthless you surely know this .

He didn't make shit up, he merely made a case from evidence they had.

He concluded unlogical from his evidence . The results of these conclusions were at a sufficient distance from reality to be called MAKING SHIT UP .

Sadaam spent the months before the invasion moving all of his bullshit to Syria or wherever

Or wherever indeed , maybe he stuffed it up in his ass huh ? Now , again , please tell me that you are completely ignorant on Syrian-Iraqi politics and that you ramble because your theory requires such .

because that was his best hope in making Bush look bad.

Clearly . He doenst care to loose weapons (assuming he has) he can kick zionist ass with , he cares to make monkey boy from texas look like a fool .

Im affraid idiot governments can only be found in democracy wesmorris , where idiots put them there . In survival of the fittest countries (ones you ought to like) things are rather different .

There is a chance you can live a decent life either way.


So is in Sudan or Somalia . Your point ? That its a good chance ? Depends on how you are born , doesnt it ?

The american dream isn't bullshit

Its equivalent to Juche

The TRUE American Dream is this: You are responsible for your own degree of success and there is no top end. Fabulous riches await the incredibly motivated.

This goes everywhere where capitalism exists . Perhaps you didnt hear of globalization either . Your amerikan dream is no different from the Belgian or German dream .

What I really love about your juche , is that you are free to fill it in for yourselves . Ofcourse you all function differently according to your position in society , but you all get justify this functioning by having a dream you can pick it out to justify it with .

Yes Im on crack now , but only in Amerika I may rehabilitate some day as overcoming your troubles is the true Amerikan dream .

http://216.40.249.192/s/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif

Communism and socialism don't motivate shit besides totalitarianism and fear and death.

In many countries who depend on the globalist world economy you love to lead , capitalist motivation deals with starvation . Fear of death is humanity's motive to live , that has nothing to do with socialist or totalitarian motivation per-see , it deals with human motivation in its basics .

Clearly that shows how capitalism motivates through fear and death just as easy , sure not when in your Amerika no ........
:rolleyes:

Capitalism will win.

Not if the relevant capitalists change their "natural" paths . Imagine what I would do with an Amerikan defence-budget Wes :D

Do you think all of the sudden their economies will pick right up? Those countries are fucked because of corruption and poor leadership.

You profit from that bad leadership , this results in taking away the chance for improvement . Improvement mostly deals with a certain demcratic element , your interest lies in dictatorships to exist .

How about if Nike doesn't give them the $1 per day and they starve to death quicker?

Do u think they stay there to die ? Do you think they're like : Oh well no nike now we all die big deal ?

They will start and find somethinmg else to survive through because their nature commands them so , with nike this change would not have taken place because of every-day normality and acceptance since the very first essential level of survival is dealt with and they rest in their fate . Get nike out and they wont .

You dont allow change . And thats logical because you base yourself in self-interest and self-interest is not being served when things change .

The soviets invaded and encompassed. We invade, change shit around and give it back to the people. We will not be taking taxes or ruples from Iraqis.

U dont have to take taz when u can take many other benefiscious things as for instance oil , companies that would deal with Iraq profit from this obviously .

And no , you dont give anything back to the peoples you give it to another government that does serve your interests regardless of any democratic aspects .

This isnt nothing new either .

Iraq is not better now then before is that enough? :rolleyes:

The US and the corrupt members of the governments in question.


Thus you concede that the US makes the profit not the country in question? It is only obvious that it's true like that. The American dream per se is exemplified by Stalin in a sense, he was ruthless, he got what he wanted and he killed 31 million ppl to get it. See the US installed dictators or supported some in Asia espeically to invest in a "stable" nation, great example of capitalist rape would be Indonesia. Suharto, was a ass.Yet under his rule FDI grew, if not exploded. Millions died under his watch, yet more investment because he was stable. Same with the Shah, and even Saddam. Your "friends" can quickly become ur worst enemies. And funny enough all nations I mentioned, Indonesia, Iran and Iraq all have anti-US tilts because of this. Al Qaeda thrives on this idoitcy which the US exemplifies so well.

True but that's no the fault of the US.

Now I agree here, i don't blame the US government, but US corps surely.

There are always strong and weak. If you deny this your are sticking your head in the sand.


So you are accepting 35,000 deaths from starvation, for your new MP3 player? That is paramount to 12.7 million deaths a year u support, and u thought Stalin was a bad boy? Stalin 25 years: 31 milion, you 25 years: 319 million.

Yes, pretty bad. I don't like it.

Yet I can tell by your demeanor that you are willing to accept it.

It seemed ridiculous enough not to bother. It still does.


Maybe because ur in denial.

That's silly, you don't know exactly what my worldview is apparently. It's kind of complicated. See that thread I started a while back called 'the international struggle for world domination' or whatever.


I can so easily tell ur worldview from this thread.

i) Capitalism
ii) Democracy (lol)
iii) Americanization

All three are being spread by force now, like Nazism, socialism. Get a clue on this man.


That's debatable but I'm short on time

No it's not debatable, because if it were I wouldn;t have brought up the above mentioned reply. The US invaded Iraq for "democracy, and freedom" the Nazi's invaded Poland for "Lebansruam, and freedom". :rolleyes:

I'm thinking nico is more than a little miffed that he is not an American... so he whines about Americans and America.. Acute Boredom I suppose... What-Everr! Gezz, Get a Life Dude! You'll most likely Never understand, nor will you know what We are or what is the true aspect of Being an American.. Pity that. Shallowness abounds Globally me-thinks! The Measure of the Spirit is Not on a scale.

Typical American, inconsistant irrelevant stupidty, no wonder you always score so low on education! If any nation I am jealous of,it's China. The most advanced civilization on earth, sucking all of your jobs, and becoming the world's foremost hegemon, leaving you in the dust. The American dream is a faux notion and you know it as well as I do.

/Iraq is not better now then before is that enough? :rolleyes:

Nico, how exactly do you know? Do you think you can believe the press? Tell me Nico, what statistics will you quote from your social studies book to convince me? What if your statistics are wrong? What if it's all a pack of lies and the only real way to know is to BE there? What if even THAT is not good enough because you don't know what is better to abdul or sharik or hassan? To the man who's child died by US bombs, life is far worse. To the man who's child died at the hands of Sadaam, life is much better no?

It is my understanding that the general populous is please with the lack of Sadaam. Wouldn't you be? Well, I've never lived there but I'd think his absence to be a good thing in general.

So quick to roll your eyes. I admire your zeal, but detest your apparent disrespect for people of opinion's contrary to your own. If you think you are right, do you think accusing people of "stupidity" or "reality suppression" in any way supports your argument?

/Thus you concede that the US makes the profit not the country in question?

No, I concede that the scenario is mutually beneficial to those who perpetuate it.

/It is only obvious that it's true like that.

So you say with no reasoning or evidence to back it up. Quite convincing. What I've said is correct or there would be no deal.

/The American dream per se is exemplified by Stalin in a sense, he was ruthless, he got what he wanted and he killed 31 million ppl to get it.

LOL. So you think that to attempt to succeed in a capitalistic environment is equivalent to abandoning all ethics? You accuse ME of "reality suppresion"? Sick. Nico, FYI, I'm in the business of "reality discovery". Please, catch me in a lie before accusing me of one. Oh, and get a fucking clue. Equating the two is simply shoddy thinking. It takes a Stalin to be a Stalin, that doesn't have much to do with "the american dream" which you seem to desire to poop on. I'm basically indifferent. The idea seems noble but eh, americans like you trash it.

/So you are accepting 35,000 deaths from starvation, for your new MP3 player? That is paramount to 12.7 million deaths a year u support, and u thought Stalin was a bad boy? Stalin 25 years: 31 milion, you 25 years: 319 million.

They starve from because of the corruption in their governments. I do not like it. I have no choice but to accept it as it seems this is the way things are for now. Later, things will be different. I hope less people starve then.

/Yet I can tell by your demeanor that you are willing to accept it.

I accept it because that it apparently reality. I don't condone it but neither do I blame the US. Blame is a waste of time. There are serious problems in the world that will not be resolved until conditions allow human nature to change. I don't think that time is near but what do I know. I'd hope it to be so in some ways, but it's perplexing sometimes. "good" and "bad" are so intimately interconnected that it's VERY difficult to determine which leads to which.

It is my understanding that plenty of aid is sent to starving nations where it is scarfed up by warlord/mafia types who buy guns with it. I don't know how much truth there is to all that.

/I can so easily tell ur worldview from this thread.

/i) Capitalism
/ii) Democracy (lol)
/iii) Americanization

/All three are being spread by force now, like Nazism, socialism. Get a clue on this man.

Dude, it's not that simple. Get a clue on this, child.

Please forgive my disrespect oh mighty Nico. I hope someday to have something of substance to contribute to enlightened debate of this intellectual magnitude.

/No it's not debatable, because if it were I wouldn;t have brought up the above mentioned reply.

That is an idiotic, arrogant assertion that you are somehow superior. I think that might be representative of some sort of disorder. Consider treatment.

/The US invaded Iraq for "democracy, and freedom" the Nazi's invaded Poland for "Lebansruam, and freedom". :rolleyes:

LOL. Why do you think that the US did that for 'democracy and freedom'? ROFMAO. Wow and you claim that I'M stupid? *giggle*

Wow man, uh.. yeah. Stop being a dick. Is it necessary to attempt to demean your opponents? What are you compensating for?

Shall we attempt to get along or do you just want to sling shit?

Firstly are u incapable of [ ]- [ / ]?

Nico, how exactly do you know? Do you think you can believe the press? Tell me Nico, what statistics will you quote from your social studies book to convince me? What if your statistics are wrong? What if it's all a pack of lies and the only real way to know is to BE there? What if even THAT is not good enough because you don't know what is better to abdul or sharik or hassan?

Man don't be so intelluctually desperate that you have to revert metaphysics to claim any political knowledge.

To the man who's child died by US bombs, life is far worse. To the man who's child died at the hands of Sadaam, life is much better no?

Their lives were mush better off before the sanctions of 1991 I can tell you that. Why did Iraq have the best social programs in teh 80's in all of the Middle East? Why did Iraq have the best healthcare system under Saddam before the sanctions. The US bombs are insignificant compared to the 1 million dead as a result of the sanctions. Who maintained one of the world's best food programs? it was Saddam's Iraq! :eek: My, my was Iraq better off? Let's see today's Iraq, a lawless, government devoid of any legitmacy, a American occupation force, terrorism rampant on the streets of Iraq, verge of civil war, and no WMD. Now wait a sec. the reason for invading Iraq was not to free the Iraqi ppl, I can name many states that need the same treatment... no it was WMD and her threat to the US. Obviously the American administration was lying about connections and ignoring the obvious.

It is my understanding that the general populous is please with the lack of Sadaam. Wouldn't you be?

There is such thing is Iraq as a general populous because there is no general unity btwn them. But I shouldn't have to tell you or explain since you should know this before making such comments.

If you think you are right, do you think accusing people of "stupidity" or "reality suppression" in any way supports your argument?


Obviously not to the eyes of the attacked.

No, I concede that the scenario is mutually beneficial to those who perpetuate it.


Mutually!?! My ass, Iraq is going to lose control of it's oil , the first batch of oil went to the good ole USA.

So you say with no reasoning or evidence to back it up. Quite convincing. What I've said is correct or there would be no deal.


If were to actually read what was mentioned afterwards that question would be answered.

So you think that to attempt to succeed in a capitalistic environment is equivalent to abandoning all ethics?

Of course it is, there is no ethics in capitalism. Captialisms ethic is profit at any cost, anything else is socialism.

It takes a Stalin to be a Stalin, that doesn't have much to do with "the american dream" which you seem to desire to poop on. I'm basically indifferent. The idea seems noble but eh, americans like you trash it.


Firstly this shows your ignorance, I am not a american I have said numerous times, which shows you don;t read my posts. Secondly Stalin is never ending reality here, his cult of the personality is in existance today in the capitalistic west, we see famous ppl's faces on billboards selling us Bull shit we don't need. The we have the comparison I made btwn the US and NK:

They starve from because of the corruption in their governments. I do not like it. I have no choice but to accept it as it seems this is the way things are for now. Later, things will be different. I hope less people starve then.


Socialism legally no one would be allowed to starve, your system makes them suffer by not helping them. Yes you do support the mass murder of 319 million ppl's, you and your kind are worse then Stalin, Mao, and Hitler put together.

I accept it because that it apparently reality. I don't condone it but neither do I blame the US.

I am not blaming the US, I am blaming capitalism.

but what do I know.

I am also pondering that as well.

It is my understanding that plenty of aid is sent to starving nations where it is scarfed up by warlord/mafia types who buy guns with it. I don't know how much truth there is to all that.


You support aid, yet your a capitalist! :confused: truly amazing.


Dude, it's not that simple. Get a clue on this, child.


It being world politics isn't your right... but you are indeed this simplisitic.

Please forgive my disrespect oh mighty Nico. I hope someday to have something of substance to contribute to enlightened debate of this intellectual magnitude.


For you are forgiven.

That is an idiotic, arrogant assertion that you are somehow superior. I think that might be representative of some sort of disorder. Consider treatment.


I am superior to you in the realm of international affairs, bar none. You are a all round intelluctual which essentially means you know nothing. Get a clue and concentrate on things you know.

LOL. Why do you think that the US did that for 'democracy and freedom'? ROFMAO. Wow and you claim that I'M stupid? *giggle*


NO i don't think the US did that for 'democracy and freedom' that is why I put it in quotations. :rolleyes:

Shall we attempt to get along or do you just want to sling shit?

I get along fine with ppl's who know their place.

Their lives were mush better off before the sanctions of 1991 I can tell you that. Why did Iraq have the best social programs in teh 80's in all of the Middle East? Why did Iraq have the best healthcare system under Saddam before the sanctions.

Iraq had the best social programs in all of the middle east? Or do you mean the arab nations? Link, please.

I can' t be sure, but Israel had and still has some very formidable social programs. Cutting edge healthcare(for the time and place), good schools, care for the elderly.

All of this without the bloody oil money. Had Saddam cooperated and funneled money away from his personal castles, there would have been plenty left over for healthcare and schooling.

/Firstly are u incapable of [ ]- [ / ]?

Yes, I'm incapable.

/Man don't be so intelluctually desperate that you have to revert metaphysics to claim any political knowledge.

You call that desperation? I thought it just a fact of life. I find it somewhat disturbing but I don't believe anyone regarding the stuff because everyone seems to have an agenda.

/Their lives were mush better off before the sanctions of 1991 I can tell you that.

For sure. My comments were directed at the removal of Sadaam.

/Why did Iraq have the best social programs in teh 80's in all of the Middle East? Why did Iraq have the best healthcare system under Saddam before the sanctions. The US bombs are insignificant compared to the 1 million dead as a result of the sanctions.

Weird when there are how many palaces? Dude had cash and only had to play ball. Sucks to be under the thumb of the US but to save those people, he should have excercised diplomacy. He didn't, they died. Everyone plays their part. It's the nature of the game.

/Who maintained one of the world's best food programs? it was Saddam's Iraq! :eek: My, my was Iraq better off? Let's see today's Iraq, a lawless, government devoid of any legitmacy, a American occupation force, terrorism rampant on the streets of Iraq, verge of civil war, and no WMD.

The sanctions were easily avoided Nico. You seem to forget that. I'm not saying it's fair but you know what? Yes I think you do. It sucks, but that doesn't change things. One is much stronger if one realizes and accepts that weak and strong are inevitable.

/Now wait a sec. the reason for invading Iraq was not to free the Iraqi ppl, I can name many states that need the same treatment... no it was WMD and her threat to the US. Obviously the American administration was lying about connections and ignoring the obvious.

It's not obvious. What is obvious is that the people were not informed of the real reason to do it because they probably wouldn't have supported it. It's a political move to save face, but not at all illegal, immoral or unethical IMO from the perspective of the task at the hand for the parties involved. I don't blame the fucks for taking down the towers, I don't blame Sadaam for building palaces, killing his own or invading Kuwait. They're simply doing their thing, as we must do ours. We have to kill them or stop them from being able to kill us before they get a changed to try, or die trying. The invasion was for a percieved opportunity for long-term strategic advantage in the middle east.

/There is such thing is Iraq as a general populous because there is no general unity btwn them. But I shouldn't have to tell you or explain since you should know this before making such comments.

LOL, then you could have thought for a second? I just meant "most of them", poor choice of words. Keen of you to point it out. :rolleyes:

/Obviously not to the eyes of the attacked.

It's just that your attack has no point but to make you look like a jackass. I've done the same thing so I'm very aware.

/Mutually!?! My ass, Iraq is going to lose control of it's oil , the first batch of oil went to the good ole USA.

The point revolved around the fact that the corrupt dictator benefits and the US benefits. If the corrupt dictator benefits less, his people could benefit more. If we remove him you throw a hissy. I'm sure you'd rather the US dissolved. That's fine, you've chosen your team. Go team.

/Of course it is, there is no ethics in capitalism. Captialisms ethic is profit at any cost, anything else is socialism.

Ah Nico, here is where I think you are short-sighted. Economics is about the distribution of resources. Certainly in the general sense it is used strictly in the context of goods, services and profits. This is silly though. There are a great many more resources than coffee, oil or the internet. We have what you call "people". IMO, an objective look at capitolism includes all aspects of recource allocation, including my thoughts, needs, emotions, etc.

Further, when defining "profit" one must be careful not to fall into the pathetic trapping of the bottom line as the only indicator of a successul endeavor. Nico, it is people who employ capitolism, even in the highest ranking of a huge corporation. If those people are devoid of ethics, their policies will reflect it. If those companies shirk responsibilities to the local economy and the general welfare of humanity then those companies have inadequately defined their profit function. POINT: In order for capitalism to sustain itself it must ensure the ability of its members to participate in the economy. Otherwise there is no one to make a profit from.

/Firstly this shows your ignorance, I am not a american I have said numerous times, which shows you don;t read my posts.

Incorrect Nico, I'm quite aware you're not american. That doesn't exclude a lot of americans from being just like you. You think you understand international politics and blah blah blah. You are armed with a sizable brain and a lot of information. YOU STILL LACK A LOT OF WISDOM. It will come if you let it, but your apparent attitude at this point may preclude you from eligibility. :D

/Secondly Stalin is never ending reality here, his cult of the personality is in existance today in the capitalistic west,

Here where? Of course, there are stalinists everywhere. Do you have a point?

/we see famous ppl's faces on billboards selling us Bull shit we don't need.

That is called consumerism Nico. While it does have its annoying components, if you are stupid enough to buy stuff you don't need because of a famous person's face on a billboard, you get what you deserve. Additionally, it is of prime motivation for one to seek reward from one's endeavor - such as return of investment.

/Socialism legally no one would be allowed to starve, your system makes them suffer by not helping them.


LOL. I'm sorry but a guy with your knowledge saying something like that? HEHEHE. Uhm... I know you know that no form of economics if feasible in a pure manner, it's basically a theoretical limit as far as I can see it, so "pure socialism" is a farce. Also, as in comparison woe-fully information shy regarding details of who did what and where and why hasn't this gone terribly wrong in countries that thought they were implementing socialism? I suppose that's an entirely different debate that I believe we've had before.

/Yes you do support the mass murder of 319 million ppl's, you and your kind are worse then Stalin, Mao, and Hitler put together.

LOL. Quick to point the finger eh? No Nico, I don't support murder. I know you really wish I did but I don't - sorry. By the same standards Nico, can you say you don't support any murders? Are you sure? Please no lying.

/I am not blaming the US, I am blaming capitalism.

And I think your view of it is jacked (along with the majority of people). I think the principle is horribly beautiful in that it is directly analagous to evolution. I also think that's why it's the only thing (as the major principle anyway, technically it can only be psuedo-capitolism) that can actually work.

/You support aid, yet your a capitalist! :confused: truly amazing.

Do you get it now?

/It being world politics isn't your right... but you are indeed this simplisitic.

That is not a sentence and as such is somewhat confusing. Re-iterate if you deem it necessary please.

/I am superior to you in the realm of international affairs, bar none.

No Nico, you THINK you are. You DO know a lot more bits of information and history than I for sure, but that does not render my commentary irrelevant. As a matter of fact, I believe what I have to offer on the topic is exactly what you LACK. Seems we might be complementary in more ways that one.

/You are a all round intelluctual which essentially means you know nothing. Get a clue and concentrate on things you know.

Hehe, didn't you just say "you're an all around intellectual" and the "focus on what you know"? So to translate: "you're just smart but you don't know anything, focus on that"? LOL. Nico, I think I've got some interesting things to say. If you don't want to talk, ignore me you bastard.

/NO i don't think the US did that for 'democracy and freedom' that is why I put it in quotations. :rolleyes:

I overlooked the quotes for convenience on my part. Pardon.

/I get along fine with ppl's who know their place.

Funny that a seemingly staunch advocate of socialism would first engage in elistist behavior. Bring on the hypocracy baby! How fruitfull to you find this behavior? Does is get you wood or something to think of yourself as better than others or to think people should "stay in their place". Fascist bitch.

I can' t be sure, but Israel had and still has some very formidable social programs.

I dont see how there would be any relevancy to compare a colonized country to a country that is practicing colonialism .

Israel has no geopolitical identity/history as its surroundings .

All of this without the bloody oil money.

Instead with bloody land .

Had Saddam cooperated and funneled money away from his personal castles, there would have been plenty left over for healthcare and schooling

Had Saddam not be fed war-hysteria against Iran maybe the entire middle-class would not have fled and there would be any basis for economical organization & structure within society so that there was something to work around when speaking of healthcare & schooling .

See the problem with your entire argument is that it based on nothing of substance. The argument you present is irrelevent to the actual thread. The thing about the "American Dream" is that it dosen't exist because it's a western-capitalist ideals, translated into layman's terms so that everyone can fall under the "spell" that is your percieve as the "American dream". Your assertion that Iraq is better off today without Saddam is based on western media assumptions. Yes Saddam was bad, for those he didn't like but for many in Iraq were better off then prior. Remember it was Saddam who modernized the country in the 80's at a great expense. Most of the infrastructure was built under his aspecies, and most of that was destroyed the "allies" and sanctions you seemed to have supported. You mentioned Agenda's, which you have are the archetypical example as such . Making un-educated claims on things you generally don't have knowledge of. Surely you are more wise then me, (I hope you don't think age has anything to do with it). But it's of no concern because when one pushes his boundaries of knowledge to the point where he makes no points or relevance your wisdom is obviously shotty. The US has no right to invade anynation for her own percieved norms and mores. The USSR was the same yet, she was villianized for doing the same actions the US is doing today. The US is repeating history, the UK went to Iraq to set up "democractic society" the white man's burdeon, it failed. I don't see a reason why this won't. I remember in 1983 Raygun said some pretty interesting words "evil empire" for the actions the USSR had taken, well I guess role reversal has hit the US like a brick.

may preclude you from eligibility.

Of what do you speak of?

/See the problem with your entire argument is that it based on nothing of substance.

LOL. (maybe a little too much substance? over your head nico?)

/The argument you present is irrelevent to the actual thread.

Bullshit, it's refutation of your refutation of my original claims. It's entirely related.

/The thing about the "American Dream" is that it dosen't exist because it's a western-capitalist ideals, translated into layman's terms so that everyone can fall under the "spell" that is your percieve as the "American dream".

No, that's just what you're saying Nico. Just because you say it's true doesn't make it so. I don't know where you come up with idea of "falling under the spell of the american dream" but it sounds like anti-capitalistic tripe, completely lacking substance - basically propaganda. As I've demonstrated, your analysis is shallow.

/Your assertion that Iraq is better off today without Saddam is based on western media assumptions.

It's just an opinion. As I've mentioned, I don't trust "western media" or any other media for that matter as they all have an agenda.

/Yes Saddam was bad, for those he didn't like but for many in Iraq were better off then prior. Remember it was Saddam who modernized the country in the 80's at a great expense. Most of the infrastructure was built under his aspecies, and most of that was destroyed the "allies" and sanctions you seemed to have supported.

LOL, you ignore my argument to spew your tripe. That is not wise. Address the points I mentioned or admit defeat! Hehe.

/You mentioned Agenda's, which you have are the archetypical example as such.

As is every comment you make Nico. My only agenda is understanding. What is yours? Seems to be shallow analysis.

/Making un-educated claims on things you generally don't have knowledge of.

Nico, you haven't demonstrated the flaw in my argument, you're merely labelling it wrong. That's not very convincing.

/Surely you are more wise then me, (I hope you don't think age has anything to do with it).

Actually it does. If you care, you get wiser as you age. I am wiser that I used to be and I was wise to begin with. I don't think that just because I'm older I'm wiser. I do happen to be both. *shrug* I'm trying to make you think Nico. I don't even claim to know everything as you seem to. I just think I have some points that a man of your knowledge should seriously contemplate before writing off entire cultures/countries etc.

/But it's of no concern because when one pushes his boundaries of knowledge to the point where he makes no points or relevance your wisdom is obviously shotty.

LOL. But Nico you're just talking shit. Where is your refutation? You merely say "that's not relevant" with no reason as to why? It's merely responses to your short-sighted assertions - how is that unrelated?

/The US has no right to invade anynation for her own percieved norms and mores.

LOL. Rights? Sure the US can invade whomever they want, as with any other country. It's a matter of being willing to bear the consequences. When it is percieved that the potential good outweighs the potential bad, any country invades. Generally, the bad outweighs the good (as in international retaliation).

/The USSR was the same yet, she was villianized for doing the same actions the US is doing today.

And the US isn't being villanized? LOL.

/The US is repeating history, the UK went to Iraq to set up "democractic society" the white man's burdeon, it failed.

Sure. The US effort might fail as well. I think the timing was right to try though.

/I don't see a reason why this won't.

There's that postive outlook! Hehe, you're probably right but success has many measures Nico.

/I remember in 1983 Raygun

LOL.. I like that.

/said some pretty interesting words "evil empire" for the actions the USSR had taken

Geez, so the coach tries to motivate his troops in a language he thinks they'll understand. Go figure.

/well I guess role reversal has hit the US like a brick.

LOL. Uhm, Nico - that's just silly. "evil empire" is stuff used by coaches to motivate the masses. You're having a hard time seeing through that eh? Everyone is on a team. The smart players understand this and can talk to each other about it on the sidelines. You having a problem seeing through the propaganda? "evil empire" is a propaganda piece of shit regardless of who is asserting it.

/ may preclude you from eligibility.

I was observing that your elitist/childish attitude may preclude you from eventually becoming wise.

Well I am not going to answer it all, half was red herrings and ad homs. But I will say this, I am not anti-capitalist at all, if you were to see I have socialist leanings but I don't believe in government control of the economy you can see this at this thread my argument with Jagger:

Le debate (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28930)

Clearly I see capitalism as a way out for nations but mostly it is a dead end.But the perversions of it and the toll it has on society is killing 35,000 per day, is that fair? The American dream is that translated to laymans terms. Remember the Evil Empire bull shit as you so said, well same with the American Dream. It is for the ignorant masses to believe and so they should. They remain ignorant and learn their place in society... (one can only wish for platonic world) :( But I was looking at something very interesting I was reviewing my logical fallacies to revamp them, and a stalwart value of the "American dream" being democracy is in essence a fallacy:

Appeal to Popularity (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html)

Which you Wes (I know your too smart to fall into it) have it seems bought it though. Contradiction! Yes but it's not my mind that is contradicting itself. The American dream is dependant on the fallacy for it's very existance. Which IMO makes the American dream false. :D

/Well I am not going to answer it all, half was red herrings and ad homs.

It's okay if you don't have the strength but I might ask "who is in the business of reality suppresion?". Are you sure it isn't YOU Nico? You should re-read your logical fallacy page. Writing my commentary off as "red herrings" and "ad homs" with no supporting argument is probably on that page somewhere don't you think?

/Clearly I see capitalism as a way out for nations but mostly it is a dead end.But the perversions of it and the toll it has on society is killing 35,000 per day, is that fair?

What have we learned about "fair" Nico? The real question is "is this the best we can do?" Unfortunately for now the answer is "yes". More pertinently, you cannot blame capitolism for perverting itself. That takes PEOPLE. Nico, the problem is evil bastards. There are a lot of them. Worse, "evil" is really a farce. It really only expresses a relative grievance. So now you have to ask: What are the options? Well, that brings up a world of shit as nothing can overcome the evil bastards. I'd say "evil" is really "short-sighted". IMO, absolute selfishness is the key to enlightenment. It's when you learn to YOU isn't really just about YOU that you start to see clearly. From there selfishness becomes beautiful.

/The American dream is that translated to laymans terms. Remember the Evil Empire bull shit as you so said, well same with the American Dream. It is for the ignorant masses to believe and so they should. They remain ignorant and learn their place in society... (one can only wish for platonic world) :

Agreed that the term "American Dream" is as much bullshit propaganda as "evil empire". My point regarding the former was that there is some truth behind the bullshit. I can be a highly ethical sumbitch and get bloody stinking rich in the US if I'm lucky and work hard and blah blah. So while the term itself can be used to promote a fallacy, there is definately truth behind it if you dig a little deeper. You'll note that this was basically what I said to start with when you decided to label me as "reality suppressor" and "stupid" and whatever else it was you called me. Though I've called you a few things as well, like "immature" and "childish".. the labels I used FIT .

/( But I was looking at something very interesting I was reviewing my logical fallacies to revamp them, and a stalwart value of the "American dream" being democracy is in essence a fallacy:

I think you are right: The "hype" of the american dream IS fallacy.

I think you are wrong: There is truth to its essence. It is easy to bastardize truth.

I didn't call you entire morass of a post red herrings or ad homs, I just thought many of the things you were talking about were about me, not the thread in question. So why would I waste my time?

The real question is "is this the best we can do?"

The answer is so relative that we will never know.

More pertinently, you cannot blame capitolism for perverting itself.

A theory can't pervert itself, your right. But once it is perverted by others we get the nuveau capitalism, which is the capitalist world you support.

What are the options?

A purge.

IMO, absolute selfishness is the key to enlightenment. It's when you learn to YOU isn't really just about YOU that you start to see clearly. From there selfishness becomes beautiful.


Well of course that thankfully is your opinion otherwise we would have a world of starving people. Oh WE DO!

My point regarding the former was that there is some truth behind the bullshit.

Can u prove it? American dream ---> 43 million Americans in poverty.

So while the term itself can be used to promote a fallacy, there is definately truth behind it if you dig a little deeper.

No, in capitalism there is. The American dream is moralist B.S and it confuses the lines of reality, for it is not purely a monetary want or need. The White picket comes to mind.

I used FIT .

Will you ever stop being so subjective? And you cannot seem to prove that statement... hmm maybe because it is a fallacy! Appeal to Ridicule. ;)

I think you are right: The "hype" of the american dream IS fallacy.

I think you are wrong: There is truth to its essence. It is easy to bastardize truth.

Well which one is it? I mean I think your getting worse and worse your contradictions.

/A purge.

But Nico... is that FAIR? Hehe.

/Well of course that thankfully is your opinion otherwise we would have a world of starving people. Oh WE DO!

Are you starving? Am I? There are many starving people in the world, but it is not "full of them".

And further, you obviously missed my point if you saw what I said as leading to "a world of starving people". If I am super selfish, am I not retarded to let you starve? Who is going to talk shit to me? How will I be entertained? I'll have to endure the thought of your suffering, that would suck.

There are a world of downsides to short-sighted selfish bastards.

/Can u prove it? American dream ---> 43 million Americans in poverty.

In a sense I am proof. My parents have no education and didn't have a means of providing one for me. I now make more money than either of them because I'm lucky enough to be intelligent and that allowed me the opportunity to get a degree which allowed me the opportunity to make a decent wage. I have a wonderful family, nice house... blah blah blah. Love my job, like the people I work with and in general I'm pleased. I want to make a lot MORE money and sincerely believe I will have the opportunity. I further believe in a realistic possibility of significant success to the point of negating any financial concerns I might have. Blah blah blah. I know a lot of americans who "live in poverty". They do so in general because they simply don't understand things. They don't understand how to compete. They are too lazy or unfortunate to get a degree (yes I owe a shitload of student loans). Some just don't give a shit about money. That sucks when their kids suffer as a result, but such in the nasty way of the world. Mother nature is a cruel bitch - government is actually much kinder if you consider the alternative. Anarchy anyone? It would be nice if people could regulate themselve.

/Well which one is it? I mean I think your getting worse and worse your contradictions.

You seriously can't see how it can be both?

Of course it is, those are people are the core of the problem, a nice purge, and a gulag to accompany it is more then fair. At least now they can finally be productive members of society.

Are you starving? Am I? There are many starving people in the world, but it is not "full of them".


In this world there are 1 billion of us (westernized) and 5 billion of them. Millions of Americans go hungry everyday, and here as well. 319 million people dying in 25 years is too much to bare. I would imagine if you and your family, or even state was starving to death, and your government spends more on defence then on anything else you would be pissed. Well welcome to 43 million American lives.

And further, you obviously missed my point if you saw what I said as leading to "a world of starving people". If I am super selfish, am I not retarded to let you starve? Who is going to talk shit to me? How will I be entertained? I'll have to endure the thought of your suffering, that would suck.


I think you need to re-phrease that question it was just akward.

There are a world of downsides to short-sighted selfish bastards.

And as I said a pruge is more then nessecary, it's about time.

They do so in general because they simply don't understand things. They don't understand how to compete. They are too lazy or unfortunate to get a degree (yes I owe a shitload of student loans).

I think that you are ignoring the obvious, many of them can't because they are poor and have to support a family, and thus jeopordizing their future prospects. Your massive ASSUMPTION! was too much to bare, millions of Americans can't get out of the cycle and the Soviet States of America isn't helping.

Anarchy anyone?

With anarchy at least we aren't denying our sick humanistic drives. In other words at least we wouldn't be fake.

You seriously can't see how it can be both?

I can see, but really i want a answer to the question. Does the American dream even exist?

/I think that you are ignoring the obvious, many of them can't because they are poor and have to support a family, and thus jeopordizing their future prospects.

Sorry Nico, not doing that. I'm not talking in general here. I'm talking direct personal experience. I've grown up around people like this and continued to be around them all my life. They are where they are due to shitty decision making. Hell man my own mother is considered "poverty level" but she's not starving. She made her bed, now she lies in it. Responsibility is a bitch. Learn the game or die. It sucks, but basically that's what it comes down to. The game is actually pretty simple, but it's in a lot of short-sighted idiots best interest to ensure that you don't know the rules.

/Your massive ASSUMPTION! was too much to bare, millions of Americans can't get out of the cycle and the Soviet States of America isn't helping.

While there are a lot of people in jacked up situations, not everyone can be successful ya know? I agree no one should starve but I honestly can't see how you could in the US if you have the motivation to seek food. Pride can be the death of you.

/With anarchy at least we aren't denying our sick humanistic drives. In other words at least we wouldn't be fake.

True, but I don't think many would be alive to be fake.

/I can see, but really i want a answer to the question. Does the American dream even exist?

But that's you answer bro. It exists as more than one thing. It is both the most noble if ideals and the most hideous of propagandic trappings.

They are where they are due to shitty decision making. Hell man my own mother is considered "poverty level" but she's not starving. She made her bed, now she lies in it. Responsibility is a bitch. Learn the game or die.

http://216.40.249.192/s/otn/shocked/Wow.gifYes that was the ideology of cannibalism, yes let's let our own family destroy itself... HURRAH! It's that ideology that made Stalin so damned popular, see I loved his solution for people's like you:

Hi Wes (http://www.cronologia.it/mondo24s.jpg)

While there are a lot of people in jacked up situations, not everyone can be successful ya know? I agree no one should starve but I honestly can't see how you could in the US if you have the motivation to seek food. Pride can be the death of you.


No one would starve if we had a egalitarian society, one that you Americans are threatened by. You won't even have public medical system, and even better 60% of your budget is geared to the military-industrial complex. Lovely, war is peace I guess.

True, but I don't think many would be alive to be fake.


Hey as Martha said, "It's a good thing" at least we would have a real society.

But that's you answer bro. It exists as more than one thing. It is both the most noble if ideals and the most hideous of propagandic trappings.

Propaganda = truth too? 1984 logics here or what!:eek:

/Yes that was the ideology of cannibalism, yes let's let our own family destroy itself... HURRAH! It's that ideology that made Stalin so damned popular, see I loved his solution for people's like you:

Hehe, yeah poor choice of words on my part so your dig is accepted. I don't think you should die because you're slow or stupid.

/Propaganda = truth too? 1984 logics here or what!:eek:

No. It's about perspective.

http://mindscraps.com/s/contrib/blackeye/drooling3.gif I guess we agree the American dream is faux.

Originally posted by nico
http://mindscraps.com/s/contrib/blackeye/drooling3.gif I guess we agree the American dream is faux.

We partially agree, yes.

There is more than one usage of the phrase. If a politician is using it, I would say it's probably a faux as you put it. If my neighbor is using it, it's not.

I don't think you should die because you're slow or stupid.


No Wes you would go to Gulag if someone acted like you, that is why I linked HI WES!

There is more than one usage of the phrase. If a politician is using it, I would say it's probably a faux as you put it. If my neighbor is using it, it's not.

Really makes no sense, how can it apply to some but not all?

/Really makes no sense, how can it apply to some but not all?

You have to use your brain as more than an encyclopedia Nico. Try real hard.

Well sure if what was said made any assemble of sense. It is impossible for it to apply to one and not another because:

i) Dosen't exist
ii) It's all relative.

Originally posted by wesmorris
Nico, how exactly do you know? Do you think you can believe the press? Tell me Nico, what statistics will you quote from your social studies book to convince me? What if your statistics are wrong? What if it's all a pack of lies and the only real way to know is to BE there? What if even THAT is not good enough because you don't know what is better to abdul or sharik or hassan?

Thank you for ignoring my post , I see the appreciation of the arguments back in your eternal denial of reality .

Nothing good happened in Iraq . Peoples lived their lives , poor , shitty , but they had lives . Amerika destroyed those lives , it destroyd the order and security that every human being needs , and it brought military occupation within anarchy in its place .

First you claim they have it better . Then u claim there is no sufficient knowledge of their situation .

It is pathetic . Face reality for once and stop hiding behind intelligence-insulting excuses that somehow create justification for your filthy war , regarding the benefit for the Iraqi peoples .

If there is one thing worse then being bombed , it is being bombed for your own good . http://www.freeadpower.org/~mrsmiles/contrib/edoom/throwup.gif

To the man who's child died by US bombs, life is far worse. To the man who's child died at the hands of Sadaam, life is much better no?

To the man that had an average Iraqi life getting by , as were most Iraqi trying to do , life has worsened . To some pathetic traumatized egoistic pig who doesnt care shit for his peoples but only cares to see his enemy Saddam chased away , it has bettered .

U hope you are starting to get the point for once .

It is my understanding that the general populous is please with the lack of Sadaam. Wouldn't you be? Well, I've never lived there but I'd think his absence to be a good thing in general.

Removal of Saddam is not the only thing that has occured , things have come in place . This deal was a bad deal . Nobody wanted this deal , no Iraqi asked for bombs on their heads and anarchy where u cant even go safe down the streets because bullits fly by .

Yes Saddam is better than to live under military occupation . You probably dont know because you probably know abslute shit about how life was in Iraq for the average Iraqi . Peoples had lives just like you man , just like you .

No, I concede that the scenario is mutually beneficial to those who perpetuate it.

Which is the foreign power and a select native group of peoples . Not the peoples of Iraq .

They starve from because of the corruption in their governments. I do not like it. I have no choice but to accept it as it seems this is the way things are for now. Later, things will be different. I hope less people starve then.

Their governmental situation is not created by themselves , it is imposed on them by foreign powers who came first to plunder them to colonize them and to enslave them , and then played them out against eachother fully armed .

Thats what resulted in todays governmental situation you so simplistically look at .

Blame is a waste of time. There are serious problems in the world that will not be resolved until conditions allow human nature to change. I don't think that time is near but what do I know. I'd hope it to be so in some ways, but it's perplexing sometimes. "good" and "bad" are so intimately interconnected that it's VERY difficult to determine which leads to which.


Total bullshit , fucking apologetics beyond amazement here . How then is there capability for your enrichment ? get out of here man .

It is my understanding that plenty of aid is sent to starving nations where it is scarfed up by warlord/mafia types who buy guns with it.

Those mafia warlords made their own arms right ? They made their own political conflict right ? Dont send aid disarm rebels and organize states that belong to the peoples .

Do you have any idea what possibilties exist with 380 Billion ?

Dont excuse your egoism .

Weird when there are how many palaces? Dude had cash and only had to play ball. Sucks to be under the thumb of the US but to save those people, he should have excercised diplomacy. He didn't, they died. Everyone plays their part. It's the nature of the game.

Your game is sick . Gulag is where your games ought to be played .

order for capitalism to sustain itself it must ensure the ability of its members to participate in the economy. Otherwise there is no one to make a profit from.

The problem however is the extreme difference in the position of participation regarding their capital result .

Are you starving? Am I? There are many starving people in the world, but it is not "full of them".

You and Nico represent a minority , can you not even understand this ? 35.000 every single day of which 85% children , die from only starvation .

You dont give a shit either way , just acknoweldge reality and acknwledge your non-caring egoist position .

Ghassan

You probably dont know because you probably know abslute shit about how life was in Iraq for the average Iraqi

That's rather hypocritical of you considering you don't know either.

Nobody knows anything ever , as wesmorris so nicely showed .

Since we have awareness of this , other matters are to be questioned like accurate premisses and superior logics .

Nobody knows , one just knows better/more than the other .

Regarding the situation during Saddam in Iraq , I have the favour .

/Thank you for ignoring my post , I see the appreciation of the
arguments back in your eternal denial of reality .

That is significantly offensive considering the number of MY posts you've ignored during our history. It's okay when it's convenient for you, but I'm in denial when I didn't feel like fucking with your post? I thought you were an intelligent adult. My mistake. Should I address you as a child?

/Nothing good happened in Iraq. Peoples lived their lives , poor , shitty , but they had lives . Amerika destroyed those lives , it destroyd the order and security that every human being needs , and it brought military occupation within anarchy in its place.

While you are certainly correct to a degree, you are also not much more than a propagandist if you ignore that there are reports coming out of there to both extremes. Some say Iraqis are pleased as punch in general, some say Iraqis are filled with more hate than ever. Of course it has to be the latter huh? Otherwise you're just full of shit? Yeah. You're full of shit. The truth is always somewhere in between.

I am not full of shit in admitting that I'm not sure what the hell is happening in Iraq in terms of who is happy and who is sad. You're a liar if you say you know better.

/First you claim they have it better. Then u claim there is no sufficient knowledge of their situation.

That is because the only thing I'm SURE of is that the fucking monster we let loose on that country is gone now. I claim there is no knowledge for sure either way but that it seems that at least in that aspect, life is better.

/It is pathetic.

Yes, it's pathetic that someone claiming to be as intellectually gifted as yourself can't understand what I just clarified without me having to clarify.

/Face reality for once and stop hiding behind intelligence-insulting excuses that somehow create justification for your filthy war , regarding the benefit for the Iraqi peoples .

NO, I have never claimed that and you know it. Show me where I said this war was for the benefit of the Iraqis. What the hell is wrong with you man? Classes got you overwhelmed? Is your wallet too heavy, giving you a cramp? Why is it that you accuse me of bullshit you know is false. Maybe your intelligence is LACKING or you wouldn't be so easily insulted by your own LIES.

/If there is one thing worse then being bombed , it is being bombed for your own good . http://www.freeadpower.org/~mrsmiles/contrib/edoom/throwup.gif

More bullshit that I NEVER CLAIMED.

/To the man that had an average Iraqi life getting by , as were most Iraqi trying to do , life has worsened. To some pathetic traumatized egoistic pig who doesnt care shit for his peoples but only cares to see his enemy Saddam chased away , it has bettered.

Right. What about the pathetic egoist pig missing his brother and wife because of him? You don't know what you're talking about any more than I do. My example was merely to illustrate the relativity of value. You completely ignore that there is another side of the story. You're too busy tending to your bleeding heart to see the smiles on the faces of those who were re-united from this. From every tragidy arises the potential for more tragedy and some unity. You ignore this because it doesn't suit your taste. I don't give a shit about your altruistic denial. There is good and bad to every situation. Blah blah, no I don't want people bombing ME no, I'm sorry they got bombed too but it's too late for apologies and I STILL think that in this case the timing was right for the US to jack Sadaam.

/U hope you are starting to get the point for once .

So now you imply I'm SLOW? hehe. Ad Homs? Wow Ghassan, impressive stupidity. I used to think you were one of the brightest people here. Maybe you're just having a bad day. Okay, I'll write it off as a bad day on your part.

/Removal of Saddam is not the only thing that has occured , things have come in place . This deal was a bad deal . Nobody wanted this deal , no Iraqi asked for bombs on their heads and anarchy where u cant even go safe down the streets because bullits fly by.

Did you ask all of them? You're talking out your ass. You know what, if Sadaam was in charge here I'd probably ask for the bombs. Then I'd go somewhere else for a while and come back when the bombs were gone. Maybe have to start over, but it'd be worth it.

I'm no big fan of war Ghassan, but in this case I think it was the right call and not just because of sadaam. From the perspective of the US government there was a big nasty situation. Someone was going to lose. Better you than me. I wish it weren't that way, but if the two of us were standing together and one had to die, would you choose yourself? That's the way it's seen from the top. Control or be controlled. This shit sucks but that doesn't mean that regardless of your scenario the same rules apply. Control or be controlled. I feel lucky not to be at the top to have to play that game because I don't think I could bear the responsibility. It's a wicked deal to have to choose between a possible 100,000 deaths and for sure about 5000 in some other country. Tell me, what's the right answer? There isn't one. You make the best decision at the time and you live with it.

/Yes Saddam is better than to live under military occupation . You probably dont know because you probably know abslute shit about how life was in Iraq for the average Iraqi . Peoples had lives just like you man , just like you .

No shit? Wow I never realized that other people have lives too. Thanks for the enlightening speech. Man you're just messed up today.

Did you know that the military occupation is TEMPORARY?????? :rolleyes:

/Which is the foreign power and a select native group of peoples . Not the peoples of Iraq .

Wasn't talking about iraq but if you insist: The deals the US makes are going to be in the interest of the US agenda. The deals that the representatives of other countries make are going to be in the best interest of their agenda. Corruption means that their agenda is just their agenda. Screw the country they represent, they get rich instead. Is that so hard to understand? Do you think that the US will do underhanded shit to ensure they get the best deal? What is in their percieved best interest? What is so difficult to comprehend about it? You can come up with happy ideas that will eradicate that type of behavior but UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE NATURE OF MAN YOUR STUPID SOLUTIONS WILL NOT BE EFFECTIVE. Greed will contaminate the system regardless of your socio-economic system. The reason I think the US system is superior is that being mostly capitalistic, the system accounts for the natural tendency of human corruption. You then modify laws to attempt to minimize it and you get the most efficient system possible considerint the corrupt nature of man.

/Their governmental situation is not created by themselves , it is imposed on them by foreign powers who came first to plunder them to colonize them and to enslave them , and then played them out against eachother fully armed . Thats what resulted in todays governmental situation you so simplistically look at .

Then the people should revolt. It is my understanding that the people will be given their government to destroy on their own soon enough. Given the muslim on muslim hatred in that country, do you see any potential alternative outcome? Oh are you going to tell me how it's all a ruse? *shrug* Maybe so. I don't know.

/Total bullshit , fucking apologetics beyond amazement here . How then is there capability for your enrichment ? get out of here man .

Incorrect. I was not apologizing for anything. My capability for enrichment? Well, I might luck out and get an idea of mine into production or go out on a limb and start a business. Either way I'm a good problem solver and can always lend my serivices to an organization who needs a good brain. Alternatively my 'enrichment' can be gained through my ability to manipulate my perspective into finding the subjective good in almost any scenario.

My point was that uhm. Well the oppression of religious idiots in england several hundred years ago lead to my very existence hundred of years later. IMO, that's a good thing. That illustrates how "good" can come from that which seems bad.

/Those mafia warlords made their own arms right?

Why would they need to? Can you say globalization? You think the mulsims who killed all the people in Iraq before it was Iraq made their own swords? That entire AREA of the world.. has been conquered by how many different groups? You act as if the "people of Iraq" aren't there because THEY conquered the place back in the.. when was that again?

/They made their own political conflict right?

As if political conflict has to be manufactured, especially considering the sect hatred and inter-faith hatred. Please man, get out of here.

/Dont send aid disarm rebels and organize states that belong to the peoples.

Okay I won't.

/Do you have any idea what possibilties exist with 380 Billion?

Not really, but I'm sure if I put my mind to it I could come up with something.

/Dont excuse your egoism.

I don't even know what "egoism" is so I'm obviously not making excuses for it. You are apparently ill-equipped to recognize that I'm not making any excuses at all. I'm merely pointing out what I think to be real.

/Your game is sick . Gulag is where your games ought to be played .

It's not my game, it's the game I've become aware of. Yes it's sick but people are sick so it's kind of unavoidable.

/The problem however is the extreme difference in the position of participation regarding their capital result .

Are you saying the rich are too rich? Yeah maybe. Why don't you send me half your money so as to even it out a little.

/You and Nico represent a minority , can you not even understand this?

That is ridiculous. The minority is starving. I don't like that they are but considering what I think to be reality I don't see a way to change it at the moment. I hope that changes.

/35.000 every single day of which 85% children , die from only starvation.

Yes you seem to like to throw that statistic around. If it bothers you so much, shut up and go feed someone.

/You dont give a shit either way

And you only claim to, liar.

/just acknoweldge reality

Tell me where I didn't. Did I say "hey no one is starving you liar!"? no. did I deny your statistic? no. I stated (in other words) that in any economy there are inherent innefficiences that likely result in tragedy. In this case, the human shortcoming of corruption (on the part of the people who steal aid for profit) creates an inneficiency that kills people from starvation. That is some sick shit. Problem is you kill those guys and someone else steps up and does what they were doing. Again and again and again.

Hypothesize for a moment that Iraq was invaded only for relieving the starving. With the santions in place, Sadaam had been stealing aid to make palaces and who knows what else and letting his people starve. You cannot even THINK it can you. (mind you I don't mean it's try, I just want you to contemplate the reaction of the world to the same scenario that just played out, but done for different reasons). You would be saying the same shit you're saying now. So who needs a lesson in reality? Who is it that cares? Oh it can only be sufi's eh? Only the deen allows truth? You are pathetic.

Your problem is that you think the reality you see is the only reality there is. There is perspective Ghassan, and mine is more centered.

/and acknwledge your non-caring egoist position.

I have acknowledged exactly the position I have on the topic. It is neither "non-caring" nor "egoist". I am in the business of ensuring that I do not find myself in the situation of those who starve. I care and act on it in my own way. I'm still not sure exactly what you mean by egoist. I'm guessing you mean "you only care about you". In that case I'd say you're wrong and simply cannot understand what I've been telling you this whole time. Note that my position has very little to do with me excepting the aspect where I realize and acknowledge on which "team" I find myself. Team selection is somewhat arbitrary and I've chosen to stick with mine for lack of a more appealing option.

Originally posted by wesmorris
/Thank you for ignoring my post , I see the appreciation of the
arguments back in your eternal denial of reality .

That is significantly offensive considering the number of MY posts you've ignored during our history. It's okay when it's convenient for you, but I'm in denial when I didn't feel like fucking with your post? I thought you were an intelligent adult. My mistake. Should I address you as a child?

First of all let me note your dicovery of relevancy of quantity . Congratulations , perhaps you can use it when you contemplate these issues revolving the peoples of Iraq .

Now you are right , the quantity is on your side as I have ignored more than you have . However there is also a difference in quality that you are neglecting . I never ignored the person posting it , you , but the subject the post/thread was about . You however did not ignore the subject but my post regarding it . I think there is a difference in this , dont you ?

Regardles I think you are right on my part , however I believe I am still right on yours . Can they co-exist ?

While you are certainly correct to a degree, you are also not much more than a propagandist if you ignore that there are reports coming out of there to both extremes. Some say Iraqis are pleased as punch in general, some say Iraqis are filled with more hate than ever. Of course it has to be the latter huh? Otherwise you're just full of shit? Yeah. You're full of shit. The truth is always somewhere in between.

I am not full of shit in admitting that I'm not sure what the hell is happening in Iraq in terms of who is happy and who is sad. You're a liar if you say you know better.

Im sorry but I think I have a slight cultural advantage regarding the psyche of the Iraqi peoples . My advantage is also social , as I am pretty sure that you have no family-ties to Iraq , Iraqi friends or even Iraqi aquintences . Im also pretty sure that you have no sociological picture of Iraqi's in their various socio-political identity's .

No all you have is some shitty media that presents matters to you exactly as is most convenient to your psychology , comforting and controlling . You dont have any acces to shit outside of that and Im damn sure you havent used your communication possibilities to the maximum of learning about the Iraqi peoples and their lives , to compensate for your disadvantages .

Authority , thats what its about . Or should I start "speculating" on how your fellow Amerikans from Misouri feel about Bush because the whole socalled world is hating his ass .

And I would probably skecth a more accurate picture than the fucking lies you spread around the peoples of Iraq .

That is because the only thing I'm SURE of is that the fucking monster we let loose on that country is gone now. I claim there is no knowledge for sure either way but that it seems that at least in that aspect, life is better.

Do you know what a monster is man ? Can you put the term monster into perspective ? The whole world has these monsters , the Arab world is filled with them . Are they all better off when they are first bombed and then under some military occupation ?

Can you imagine your everyday life under military occupation ? To fear u might gonna die if u go out in the streets to get a damn job ? That is 10000x times worse then Saddam , because Saddam ment shit in most Iraqis everyday life other than the usual worldwide dictatorial circumstances and impoverishment .

Do you think the freedom to yell out "fuck saddam" is more valuable than the freedom to walk on a street an live ?

Nobody cares about a singular aspect , life comes with mopre aspects than political leadership , and even on that front you dont acknowledge the alternative which is worse . Can you not coprehend this ?

NO, I have never claimed that and you know it. Show me where I said this war was for the benefit of the Iraqis. What the hell is wrong with you man? Classes got you overwhelmed? Is your wallet too heavy, giving you a cramp? Why is it that you accuse me of bullshit you know is false. Maybe your intelligence is LACKING or you wouldn't be so easily insulted by your own LIES.


And where did I claim that you claimed the reason for this war to be the benefit of Iraq ? I claim that you are trying to claim justification for this war on moral grounds by showing that Iraqi peoples have benefit .

Dont turn my words around man .

More bullshit that I NEVER CLAIMED.

Did you or did you not claim that Iraqi peoples were better of now ? You then tried to squeeze your lying ways out by isolated the mere - of Saddam , what the hell is that crap man ? And then the rest is unknown ?

Complete bullshit every person that has a brain can see that life under military occupation sux . Your unknown crap is only for yourself because you dont want to know , you dont care for any damn truth you only care for what is convenient for yourself .

Right. What about the pathetic egoist pig missing his brother and wife because of him? You don't know what you're talking about any more than I do. My example was merely to illustrate the relativity of value. You completely ignore that there is another side of the story. You're too busy tending to your bleeding heart to see the smiles on the faces of those who were re-united from this. From every tragidy arises the potential for more tragedy and some unity. You ignore this because it doesn't suit your taste. I don't give a shit about your altruistic denial. There is good and bad to every situation. Blah blah, no I don't want people bombing ME no, I'm sorry they got bombed too but it's too late for apologies and I STILL think that in this case the timing was right for the US to jack Sadaam.

The other side has nothing in compare regarding quantity to this side . Cant you understand the difference between a few happy peoples and masses of unhappy peoples ? Why do these masses who have done nothing , have to suffer for the happyness of these few fucks ?

There are millions of bleeding hearts and thousands of smiles , can you not understand this difference ?

You STILL think it was right because you STILL argue from your EGOIST perspective not caring for any peoples that have to suffer for your political games .

At least be honest . Dont hide behind supposed benefits and crap rhetoric about necesity and whatever .

No again Im not accusing you of claiming it was of any reason , but this is how you are trying to morally justify , by attemptiong to trick into positive conclusins drawn from an isolated perspective on merely the fall of Saddam Hussain .

So now you imply I'm SLOW? hehe. Ad Homs? Wow Ghassan, impressive stupidity. I used to think you were one of the brightest people here. Maybe you're just having a bad day. Okay, I'll write it off as a bad day on your part.

Lmfao you are actually accusing me of ad-homs ? No this isnt any bad day , you cant shove shit off like that fuck man you fucking pussy .

Did you ask all of them? You're talking out your ass.

Do I need to ask all of them is this the pathetic low level you have managed to get on ? PATHETIC .

From now on let it be known . To have any knowledge of what a peoples think about a subject , you are supposed to ask every single one of them otherwise the argument fails on wesmorris logics .

And my ass knows more than you do on this issue .

From the perspective of the US government there was a big nasty situation. Someone was going to lose. Better you than me. I wish it weren't that way, but if the two of us were standing together and one had to die, would you choose yourself?

This was not the fucking situation how damn indoctrinated are you man ? No one in Iraq stood against USA , this war has absolutely nothing to do with any threat for your Amerikan existance .

No shit? Wow I never realized that other people have lives too. Thanks for the enlightening speech. Man you're just messed up today.

You didnt man , dont bullshit me your phony realizations you have never in your life looked at things from a perspective of a regular Iraqi person . If you indeed have , and are still and this point I must say that I have been mistaken about you .

I consider this very ignorant of my part .

Did you know that the military occupation is TEMPORARY??????

Did you know LIFE is TEMPORARY as well ?

Wasn't talking about iraq but if you insist: The deals the US makes are going to be in the interest of the US agenda. The deals that the representatives of other countries make are going to be in the best interest of their agenda. Corruption means that their agenda is just their agenda. Screw the country they represent, they get rich instead. Is that so hard to understand? Do you think that the US will do underhanded shit to ensure they get the best deal? What is in their percieved best interest? What is so difficult to comprehend about it? You can come up with happy ideas that will eradicate that type of behavior but UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE NATURE OF MAN YOUR STUPID SOLUTIONS WILL NOT BE EFFECTIVE. Greed will contaminate the system regardless of your socio-economic system. The reason I think the US system is superior is that being mostly capitalistic, the system accounts for the natural tendency of human corruption. You then modify laws to attempt to minimize it and you get the most efficient system possible considerint the corrupt nature of man.

BULLSHIT . You and your absolutist crap , how will there not be an effect , if there is difference within political positions and systems ? That difference implies possibility of effect caused by political measures , nobody here is arguing you on the cause of the problems , but due to life's complexity this core is not fixed and steady everywhere .

Nobody denies there will bne contamination , but do you have any capability to relativate ? The contamination and the position this contimantion has today can be improved , as it can be worsened as well . Do you understand this ?

Then the people should revolt. It is my understanding that the people will be given their government to destroy on their own soon enough. Given the muslim on muslim hatred in that country, do you see any potential alternative outcome? Oh are you going to tell me how it's all a ruse? *shrug* Maybe so. I don't know.

There is no "Muslim on Muslim" hatred shows again unless you conclude this from the simply fact that they're Muslims and they have conflict (independant of their causes) and mention it as such , you're totally ignorant on the ethnic/political issues regarding Iraq .

Its not a damn coincidence that Tariq Aziz was a Christian , Saddam Hussain a Sunni and Muhammad Al Sahaf a Shia .

They wont be given any government to their own disposal but ofcourse in order to releave yourself from any blame of the outcome , you need to create a pre-existing understanding of some inevitable happening , one that is not your fault .

They should revolt ............ :bugeye:

My point was that uhm. Well the oppression of religious idiots in england several hundred years ago lead to my very existence hundred of years later. IMO, that's a good thing. That illustrates how "good" can come from that which seems bad.


Can you try and deduce this same value out of your birth indirectly caused by oppression , from a perspective other than of yourself and those few peoples that care ?

Why would they need to? Can you say globalization?

Man dont give me your crap they were armed to their teath by 2 competing entity's , USSR and USA . That was the point .

You think the mulsims who killed all the people in Iraq before it was Iraq made their own swords? That entire AREA of the world.. has been conquered by how many different groups? You act as if the "people of Iraq" aren't there because THEY conquered the place back in the.. when was that again?

So ? Whats your point ? Your point is that historical events are justification to carry on the shit in modern times ? I rather learn from the passed instead of repeating it like an ass .

And its the culture that conquered , not the peopels . Unlike your conquestadores and other ilk they didnt holocausted the region .

As if political conflict has to be manufactured, especially considering the sect hatred and inter-faith hatred. Please man, get out of here.

If tehre is such a sect hatred , how come the mainstream hasnbt crushed them all ? You talk out of your ass man , you clearly show you have absolutely no idea how the relations are between various islamic sect , how exactly their problems developped and who had advantage in this development .

Fucking Brittish even invented terms like wahhabis to dissect muslims , created socalled Islamic authoritarian positions like the Mufti to have controll over the peopels .

Spare me your ignorant bullshit man

Okay I won't.

Ha Ha

I'm merely pointing out what I think to be real..

Ur thinking has no logical basis in this case .

It's not my game, it's the game I've become aware of. Yes it's sick but people are sick so it's kind of unavoidable.


Im sorry I dont wish to consider myself part of those peoples you are regarding as sick .

Are you saying the rich are too rich? Yeah maybe. Why don't you send me half your money so as to even it out a little.


Im sorry it has other destinations .

That is ridiculous. The minority is starving. I don't like that they are but considering what I think to be reality I don't see a way to change it at the moment. I hope that changes.


Your empty hopes are worthless .

Yes you seem to like to throw that statistic around. If it bothers you so much, shut up and go feed someone.


Why should I do that ? I might be a sick fucker who enjoyes the starvation of all those peoples . My point is your acknowledgement of the situation and your national role in it as the greatest capitalist nation , as well as due to direct ties to the starving reasons .

And you only claim to, liar.

Show me where ?

Tell me where I didn't. Did I say "hey no one is starving you liar!"? no. did I deny your statistic? no. I stated (in other words) that in any economy there are inherent innefficiences that likely result in tragedy. In this case, the human shortcoming of corruption (on the part of the people who steal aid for profit) creates an inneficiency that kills people from starvation. That is some sick shit. Problem is you kill those guys and someone else steps up and does what they were doing. Again and again and again.

Listen , I dont mind the causes they are human . I mind the inequal opportunity to do different . Some peoples dont get the chance to be greedy .

Your reality repression lies in the direct political responsibilities for these situations as how they developped . Blaiming shit on some human urge is just pathetic , because the human urge does have no chance to develop itself equal everywhere . Its just you who gets this chance , man if you would only use it respectably I could live with it .

But you dont , your wealth becomes a big fat HOG that sits on the sofa all day watching damn television .

Its disgusting .

Hypothesize for a moment that Iraq was invaded only for relieving the starving. With the santions in place, Sadaam had been stealing aid to make palaces and who knows what else and letting his people starve. You cannot even THINK it can you. (mind you I don't mean it's try, I just want you to contemplate the reaction of the world to the same scenario that just played out, but done for different reasons). You would be saying the same shit you're saying now.

Thats because the damn invader is the cause of the sanctions , ofcourse i would say the exact same thing , that is becaus ethe situation would been exactly the same .

Can you imagine what I would say if USA would have had no responsibility of the situation Iraq got in ? No CIA coup for Saddam ? No using Iraq as a wartoy against Iran ?No pimping of Kuweit ?

Can you imagine that I have problems with your shitty ways because of your shitty ways and not because of your shitty identity ?

Your perspective is not centred , its centric .

you only care about you

You and your direct surroundings .

Team selection is somewhat arbitrary and I've chosen to stick with mine for lack of a more appealing option.

Thats the difference , Im not on any team , I have issues with all of you pigs .

/First of all let me note your dicovery of relevancy of quantity. Congratulations, perhaps you can use it when you contemplate these issues revolving the peoples of Iraq.

Your condescension is amusing, ass.

/Now you are right , the quantity is on your side as I have ignored more than you have . However there is also a difference in quality that you are neglecting . I never ignored the person posting it, you, but the subject the post/thread was about.

Generally they are the same. You claim cannot be refuted nor denied without more effort than is worth to do so.

/You however did not ignore the subject but my post regarding it . I think there is a difference in this , dont you?

There is certainly a difference, but I sincerly doubt your credibility on the issue. Plenty of times you've left my posts hanging permanently. With that in mind, the difference dissipates.

/Regardles I think you are right on my part , however I believe I am still right on yours . Can they co-exist?

Sure, I skimmed your post and didn't feel like fucking with it basically due to volume. You've done the same to me. Now you whine about it.

/Im sorry but I think I have a slight cultural advantage regarding the psyche of the Iraqi peoples . My advantage is also social , as I am pretty sure that you have no family-ties to Iraq , Iraqi friends or even Iraqi aquintences . Im also pretty sure that you have no sociological picture of Iraqi's in their various socio-political identity's.

I'd say that's more of a source of bias than advantage actually. I don't care though because you'll be shown that this is completely irrelavent.

/No all you have is some shitty media that presents matters to you exactly as is most convenient to your psychology , comforting and controlling .

How is that fair given the number of times I've stated throughout this thread that I don't trust what I get from the media. Telling me that you think they suck and that you think I don't know what I'm talking about doesn't really help to illustrate your point.

/You dont have any acces to shit outside of that and Im damn sure you havent used your communication possibilities to the maximum of learning about the Iraqi peoples and their lives , to compensate for your disadvantages.

What if what I were to say that most of what I've inferred about Iraq, etc. comes from a conglomeration of inputs including sciforums? You are not debating points, you're attacking ME aren't you? I believe you've read too much into what I've said and will try to illustrate it below.

/Authority, thats what its about.

In what manner? You mean you think that I'm buying into some authoritative dictation? If that's what you think, there is no point in discussion.

/Or should I start "speculating" on how your fellow Amerikans from Misouri feel about Bush because the whole socalled world is hating his ass.

LOL, funny that a socialistic lennonist type would presume to speak for the world. There are certainly people who hate him, but the whole world? LOL. Do you want to get into this? I mean, what if the average dumbass taxi-driver in country x hates bush for the reason that he saw him pick his nose or some random reason, while that hate is genuine and counts as opinion is it justifiable? So you mean "of those who comprehend this stuff well enough, most of them hate bush"? I'll say "well exactly who qualifies as 'comprehending' this shit well enough. IMO, if you don't get my point as established in "international struggle for world domination" then you really don't comprehend what's going on and thusly would be excluded from your intended grouping. Who then exactly hates him? Oh yes, YOU and the people you think you relate to. This is fine. That is your team. Doesn't matter if you didn't pick it.

Let me ask: If it is a fact that the whole world hates him - does that in and of itself mean his choices were wrong? So far your argument is as of little substance as you accuse mine of being.

/And I would probably skecth a more accurate picture than the fucking lies you spread around the peoples of Iraq .

I'd ask that you demonstrate ONE TIME where I have ever lied. I think you will be hard pressed to do so. As a matter of fact, you cannot. I don't lie. Of course I am occasionally just wrong.

/Do you know what a monster is man?

Yes I've met a few.

/The whole world has these monsters , the Arab world is filled with them.

Certainly, the whole world is filled with them. It's just that not all of them end up in a position diametrically opposed to the US where the US actually percieves them as a threat to it's stability. The US generally attempts to manipulate them out of the way before they cause trouble. Taking advantage of corruption is an excellent way to do that. It's disgusting but it works. *shrug* This particular monster decided to go renegade and well, he was in the wrong dictatorship at the wrong time and had to go down in an effort for the US to gain long-term geo-political advantage and stability internal to the US. It was a pretty big gamble.

/Are they all better off when they are first bombed and then under some military occupation?

Depends on your perspective. Are you thinking of 50 years from now? You cannot know. I cannot know. I HOPE they'll be better off as with everyone else. You purport to KNOW they are not. This only exposes your horrific bias. Your opinion is grounded in more evidence than mine, but evidence is somewhat secondary regarding the potential long-term impact of the war. Hence your self-proclaimed "social and cultural advantage" is minimized to the point of irrelevance. Even the ten year time-frame doesn't really allow you advantage that I can see. I sure you feel differently.

/Can you imagine your everyday life under military occupation?

I can imagine it.

/To fear u might gonna die if u go out in the streets to get a damn job?

Who is the source of the fear? You think US troops are a threat to the average citizen of Iraq? Only in battling with those who would kill them. Our troops are there to police things now - if they get shot at what do you expect? You would shoot back?

/That is 10000x times worse then Saddam , because Saddam ment shit in most Iraqis everyday life other than the usual worldwide dictatorial circumstances and impoverishment.

That is simply bullshit. You're exagerating your shit to make it seem like armageddan. I will agree that it sucks and I hope for a swift return to prosperity in Iraq, as it has been too long. Military occupation is necessary until the proper infrastructure can be established / repaired. I'm pretty sure it beats complete anarchy. I doubt it lasts more than another year max, though who knows about US attempts to build military bases there.

/Do you think the freedom to yell out "fuck saddam" is more valuable than the freedom to walk on a street an live?

I think they are basically equal, and it's more than just "fuck sadaam". This is in principle. In practice, the character of the individual or 'stay of conviction' plays into the value of either.

/Nobody car