I just came accross this and thought I would share....


"A MAN TO EMULATE

Jesus was a religious leader.
Muhammad was religious leader and a military leader.

Jesus never killed anyone.
Muhammad killed an estimated 3,000 people, including beheading 700 Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe in Medina.

Jesus never owned slaves.
Muhammad received a fifth of the prisoners taken in battle, including women. (Sura 8:41)

Jesus never married.
Muhammad had many wives.

Jesus never forced followers to continue believing. After Jesus made a difficult saying, "many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve, 'Will ye also go away?' Then Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.'" (John 6:31-69)

Muhammad forced followers to continue believing, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." (Hadith al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 84, No. 57)

Jesus taught God was our Father (Matthew 6:10).
Muhammad taught it was blasphemy to call Allah your father (Sura 5:18)

Jesus taught man was made in God's image. (Matthew 22:20, ref. Gen. 1:26-27, 9:6)
Muhammad taught Allah has no image. (Sura 42:11, Sura 112:4)

Jesus taught "forgive those who trespass against you." (Matthew 6:10-15)
Muhammad taught to avenge trespasses against your honor, family or religion.

Jesus did not retaliate when violence was committed against him, saying "Father, forgive them." (Luke 23:34)
Muhammad retaliated when violence was committed against him, ordering the death of his enemies.

Following Jesus was voluntary, from the inside out.
Following Muhammad could be coerced, from the outside in.

A martyr in Christian and Jewish thought is one who dies for his faith.
A martyr in Islamic thought is one who dies for his faith while killing infidels.

Christianity teaches God wants a personal relationship with each individual.
Islam teaches individuals cannot have a personal relationship with Allah, as he is transcendent and unknowable.

Jesus' religion is known for forgiveness and love.
Muhammad's religion is known for obedience and fear.

None of Jesus' Apostles led armies. A village did not receive Jesus "and when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did?' But he turned and rebuked them, and said, 'Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'" (Luke 9:52-56)

All of the caliphs who followed Muhammad led armies. (Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Muawiyya, the Umayyads, the Abbasids, etc.)

In the first 300 years of Christianity, there were 10 major Roman persecutions, and Christians were fed to lions in the Colosseum. Never did Christians lead an armed resistance against those who attacked them.

In the first 300 years of Islam, Muslim armies conquered Arabia, Persia, the Holy Land, North Africa, Spain, Southern France, Central Africa, and invaded vast areas of Asia and Asia Minor.

Jesus's teaching on how to treat enemies:

Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them which despitefully use you (Matthew 5:44).
Resist not evil (Matthew 5:39).
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to them the other (Matthew 5:39).
If someone takes your coat, give them your shirt (Matthew 5:40).
If someone make you carry something one mile, carry it two (Matthew 5:41).
Forgive and you shall be forgiven (Matthew 6:14).
Judge not, that ye be not judged (Matthew 7:1).
Blessed are the peacemakers (Matthew 5:9).
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy (Matthew 5:7).
Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not kill, but I say who ever is angry with his brother is in danger of the judgment (Matthew 5:21-22).
Treat others the same way you want them to treat you (Luke 6:27-36).
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, whatever you do to the very least you have done unto me (Matthew 25:40).
Muhammad's teaching on how to treat enemies:

Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE...mp;pageId=57615
"



Is this one-sided, or would you say it is true?

Your thoughts?

World Nut Daily is not a good source of information. :)

Besides, it would appear that even the Christians are following Mohammed. ;)

I mean do you see any Christian on a cross?

Up to my ears in bullshit.

Oh, and I might add, enough isn't known about Jesus to make such assertions on his behalf. Seriously, we even have a small group of people nowadays who think the guy never existed.

:bugeye:

World Nut Daily is not a good source of information. :)

Besides, it would appear that even the Christians are following Mohammed. ;)

I mean do you see any Christian on a cross?

Hey, Sam, didn't Mohammed take a wife that was only 6 years old?

Yeah, there are better examples of religious leaders, that's for sure.

World Nut Daily is not a good source of information. :)

Besides, it would appear that even the Christians are following Mohammed. ;)
It really depends how similar their teachings are. I hought the teachings were similar, but that website claim otherwise. Do you know the verses in the Qu'ran where Muhammad has similar teachings with Jesus? Such as "love thy enemies"?

I mean do you see any Christian on a cross?
Christians are supposed to "carry a cross" in a figurative sense. I do. But in my experience, most christians don't.

Oh, and I might add, enough isn't known about Jesus to make such assertions on his behalf.


It's in the book, chief. He made those assertions.

Up to my ears in bullshit.

Oh, and I might add, enough isn't known about Jesus to make such assertions on his behalf.
It's taken directly from the Bible.

Hey, Sam, didn't Mohammed take a wife that was only 6 years old?

Yeah, there are better examples of religious leaders, that's for sure.

What was the age of Mary when she was married, do you know?:p

Hint: she was pregnant at 12 years of age.

It's taken directly from the Bible.

So then, why is it being presented as a historical fact? Muhammad's list is a mix of supposed historical documentations, Qur'an, and Hadith.

So who was the better hero - Mighty Mouse or Superman ?

So who was the better hero - Mighty Mouse or Superman ?

I like Batman. No superpowers, just hard work and determination. :p

I like Batman. No superpowers, just hard work and determination. :p

Yeah, but he also had a faithful (homosexual) slave. Superman never had a faithful (homosexual) slave!

I personally prefer Austin Powers.

Yeah, but he also had a faithful (homosexual) slave. Superman never had a faithful (homosexual) slave!

He was Superman, he could take care of himself.:p

Christianity teaches God wants a personal relationship with each individual.


Is this one-sided, or would you say it is true?

Your thoughts?

I have this kind of relationship with God, and as far as I can tell, Jesus is who He says He is.

Well Mohamed lit a fire under their asses. In a male dominated society what do you do? You let the men have multiple wives is a good start, you can spend one night with one wife then the next with the other and make your rounds. Naturally they all agreed that five was better than one.

But then he also set the path for the conquests that followed. Who knows why, maybe they ran out of women:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

History

* 1.1 Byzantine-Arab Wars: 634-750
* 1.2 Conquest of Persia: 633-651
* 1.3 Conquest of Transoxiana: 662-709
* 1.4 Conquest of Sindh: 664-712
* 1.5 Conquest of Hispania: 711-718
* 1.6 Conquest of the Caucasus: 711-750
* 1.7 End of the Umayyad conquests: 718-750
* 1.8 Conquest of Nubia: 700-1606
* 1.9 Incursions into Southern Italy: 831-902
* 1.10 Conquest of Anatolia: 1060-1360
* 1.11 Byzantine-Ottoman Wars: 1299-1453
* 1.12 Further conquests: 1200-1800
* 1.13 Decline and collapse: 1800-1924

This set the stage for The Crusades, the first one was - 1095-1099.

http://india_resource.tripod.com/sindh.html

Of course they were given an option- You either die or convert to Islam which essentially is surrender.

Last time I checked, you were allowed to wear tshirts with images of Jesus and have cartoons of Jesus w/o Christians rioting and burning shit down. :shrug:

Exactly. No one stands up for Jesus. :(

http://www.sayagain.co.uk/images/badtaste/jesuslovesyababy.gif

Lets all bang the war drums.

bllblblblblblblblblbll.

[QUOTE=S.A.M.;1780130]Exactly. No one stands up for Jesus. :(

QUOTE]

That's it! I'm starting a riot.

*jumps and shoots into air*
lalalalalalala *Shooting sounds* lalalalalalalalal *shooting sounds*lalalal

That's it! I'm starting a riot.

*jumps and shoots into air*
lalalalalalala *Shooting sounds* lalalalalalalalal *shooting sounds*lalalal

http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2006-04-07.jpg

http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2006-05-23.jpg

http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2005-11-25.jpg

You know when nothing is left to say post a cartoon.

You don't draw well.

You know when nothing is left to say post a cartoon.

You don't draw well.

I don't think anyone disagrees that Jesus was a good man. Even Mohammed said he was his favorite Prophet. :)

Muslims call him Ruh'ullah, or the spirit of God.

You'll never find a Muslim who makes fun of Jesus or says anything bad about him.

If you do, it will have to be a really ignorant Muslim.

Too late now S.A.M.:)

"A MAN TO EMULATE

Buddha was a religious leader.
Mosses was a religious leader.
Jesus was a religious leader.
Bahá'u'lláh was a religious leader.
Muhammad was religious leader and a military leader.
Alexander the Great was a religious leader and a military leader.
Julius Caesar was a religious leader and a military leader.

Buddha never killed anyone.
Mosses never killed anyone. (or did he ... certainly his "God" did do a lot of killing?!?)
Jesus never killed anyone..
Bahá'u'lláh never killed anyone..
Jesus never killed anyone.
Muhammad killed (?? Did Mohammad personally kill someone ?? I have been told yes of course by some Muslims)
Alexander the Great killed
Julius Caesar killed .

Buddha never ordered someone to be killed.
Mosses never ordered someone to be killed.
Jesus never ordered someone to be killed..
Bahá'u'lláh never ordered someone to be killed...
Muhammad did order someone to be killed. (ex: Slave Girl)
Alexander the Great did order someone to be killed.
Julius Caesar did order someone to be killed.


Buddha never owned slaves.
Mosses never owned slaves.
Jesus never owned slaves.
Bahá'u'lláh never owned slaves.
Muhammad did own slaves (although apologists suggest no he didn't really "own" them - they volunteered to become his "slave" - you know metaphorically they were "slaves")
Alexander the Great did own slaves
Julius Caesar did own slaves

Buddha was married (monogamist)
Mosses was married (monogamist)
Bahá'u'lláh was married (polygamist).
Jesus never married. (was probably sexually involved with Mary Magdalene)
Muhammad was married (polygamist).
Alexander the Great was married (monogamist? polygamist? Anyway, Hephaestian was his main lover)
Julius Caesar was married (monogamist but cheated a lot)



Anyway, I thought that was a much more accurate comparison.
Feel free to add to the comparisons.

Michael

I think one of the most important differences between Jesus and Muhammad is that Muhammad appears to have been a real person in history. Jesus appears to be a mythical figure in a faery tale.

Oh, and by the way—

Jesus was a religious leader.
Muhammad was religious leader and a military leader.

—Jesus, if he existed at all, was a political figure.

One more difference.

Mohammed was arguably the most influential man in history

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." --Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST
INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc.,
1978, p. 33.

In the first century the establishment of Islam upon the Arabian peninsula and the subsequent rapid expansion of the Arab Empire during the Muslim conquests, resulted in the formation of an empire surpassed by none before.[6] For the subjects of this new empire, formerly subjects of the vanishing Byzantine and Sassanid Empire, not much changed in practice. The objective of the conquests was more than anything of a practical nature, as fertile land and water were scarce in the Arabian peninsula. A real Islamisation therefore only came about in the subsequent centuries.[7]

For the polytheistic and pagan societies, apart from the religious and spiritual reasons each individual may have had, conversion to Islam "represented the response of a tribal, pastoral population to the need for a larger framework for political and economic integration, a more stable state, and a more imaginative and encompassing moral vision to cope with the problems of a tumultuous society."[8] In contrast, for sedentary and often already monotheistic societies, "Islam was substituted for a Byzantine or Sassanian political identity and for a Christian, Jewish or Zoroastrian religious affiliation."[8] Conversion initially was neither required nor necessarily wished for: "(The Arab conquerors) did not require the conversion as much as the subordination of non-Muslim peoples. At the outset, they were hostile to conversions because new Muslims diluted the economic and status advantages of the Arabs."[8]

Only in subsequent centuries, with the development of the religious doctrine of Islam and with that the understanding of the Muslim ummah, did mass conversion take place. The new understanding by the religious and political leadership in many cases led to a weakening or breakdown of the social and religious structures of parallel religious communities such as Christians and Jews.[8]

The caliphs of the Umayyad dynasty established the first schools inside the empire, called madrasas, which taught the Arabic language and Islamic studies. They furthermore began the ambitious project of building mosques across the empire, many of which remain today as the most magnificent mosques in the Islamic world, such as the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. At the end of the Umayyad period, less than 10% of the people in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia and Spain were Muslim. Only on the Arabian peninsula were there substantially more Muslims among the population.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam

Oh another difference:

George W Bush Jr is a direct descendant of Mohammad not of Jesus :D

:roflmao:

I still get a good laugh out of that one.

RE: Jesus appears to be a mythical figure in a faery tale.

Of course. But that said, Mohammad may be a composite character.

Michael

Actually both Jesus and Mohammed are descended from Abraham, one from each son. Basic knowledge about Muslims and Christians, don't you know?

I just came accross this and thought I would share....

How nice of you. Without doing any background research and all :)

Muhammad was religious leader and a military leader.

As was prophesied in the Bible.

Muhammad killed an estimated 3,000 people, including beheading 700 Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe in Medina.

Can you provide me proof please?

Also, the Banu Qurayza tribe were dealt with according to Jewish Law which they themselves chose. They continously broke treaties and covenants and helped the enemies of Islam who were intent on destroying the Muslims. As a result of this continued treachery they were given a choice to be judged by whomever they wished. They chose a friend of theirs who who asked them wether they wanted to be judged according to Jewish law. They said yes and according to Jewish law they were punished.

Muhammad received a fifth of the prisoners taken in battle, including women. (Sura 8:41)

Nowhere does this verse talk about women :shrug: it says that one fifth of the spoils of war are to be divided among the Prophet, the kindred, the orphans, the needy and the wayfarer.

Jesus never married.

Evidence from research in India shows that theres a whole tribe who call themselves "Descendents of Isa"

Muhammad had many wives.

Just like numerous Christian kings.

Muhammad forced followers to continue believing, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." (Hadith al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 84, No. 57)

As we know, the Hadith is not more authoritative than the Quran in Islam. And the Quran says: There should be no compulsion in religion (2:257).

Muhammad taught it was blasphemy to call Allah your father (Sura 5:18)

Nowhere does the verse say that.

Muhammad taught Allah has no image. (Sura 42:11, Sura 112:4)

Yes, there is nothing in this universe like God. As soon as you start comparing God to humans and give him human qualities he stops being God.

Muhammad taught to avenge trespasses against your honor, family or religion.

Proof?

Muhammad retaliated when violence was committed against him, ordering the death of his enemies.

As prophesied in the Bible, again :eek:

Following Muhammad could be coerced, from the outside in.

Proof?

A martyr in Islamic thought is one who dies for his faith while killing infidels.

Proof?

Islam teaches individuals cannot have a personal relationship with Allah, as he is transcendent and unknowable.

Proof?

Muhammad's religion is known for obedience and fear.

Proof?

All of the caliphs who followed Muhammad led armies. (Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Muawiyya, the Umayyads, the Abbasids, etc.)

As prophesied in the Bible. And didnt any Christian kings lead armies?

In the first 300 years of Islam, Muslim armies conquered Arabia, Persia, the Holy Land, North Africa, Spain, Southern France, Central Africa, and invaded vast areas of Asia and Asia Minor.

These Muslim "conquests", the name given to the spread of Islam in the world, did not go hand in hand with the expansion of the Muslim empire. If you had actually read up on Muslim history you would have seen the hostility towards the Muslim state by the Persians and the Romans, who were subsequently defeated when they started these hostilities. Once again, as porphesied in the Bible.

Muhammad's teaching on how to treat enemies:

Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).

I suggest you read this (http://sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1756109&postcount=208) and if you still have questions about those verses please dont hesitate to ask.

Is this one-sided, or would you say it is true?

Id be surprised if it wasnt written by a Christian tbh

Muhammad did own slaves (although apologists suggest no he didn't really "own" them - they volunteered to become his "slave" - you know metaphorically they were "slaves")
Michael

First of all, please dont refer to me as an apologetic. I really hate that word. I would like to know why you keep referring to me as an apologetic?

Secondly, they didnt volunteer to be slaves. They were people who chose to be with him. You said you would provide proof that he had slaves. Yet you did not deliver. I gave you the hadith regarding many people you would call slaves but whom the Prophet always let decide whatever they wanted to do. Ofcourse, otally forget the fact that the Muslim state got rid of the word slave. Why? Because capturing and enslaving free men and women was not allowed. Weve had this dicussion havent we?

I just came accross this and thought I would share....


"A MAN TO EMULATE

Jesus was a religious leader.
Muhammad was religious leader and a military leader.

Jesus never killed anyone.
Muhammad killed an estimated 3,000 people, including beheading 700 Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe in Medina.

Jesus never owned slaves.
Muhammad received a fifth of the prisoners taken in battle, including women. (Sura 8:41)

Jesus never married.
Muhammad had many wives.

Jesus never forced followers to continue believing. After Jesus made a difficult saying, "many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve, 'Will ye also go away?' Then Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.'" (John 6:31-69)

Muhammad forced followers to continue believing, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." (Hadith al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 84, No. 57)

Jesus taught God was our Father (Matthew 6:10).
Muhammad taught it was blasphemy to call Allah your father (Sura 5:18)

Jesus taught man was made in God's image. (Matthew 22:20, ref. Gen. 1:26-27, 9:6)
Muhammad taught Allah has no image. (Sura 42:11, Sura 112:4)

Jesus taught "forgive those who trespass against you." (Matthew 6:10-15)
Muhammad taught to avenge trespasses against your honor, family or religion.

Jesus did not retaliate when violence was committed against him, saying "Father, forgive them." (Luke 23:34)
Muhammad retaliated when violence was committed against him, ordering the death of his enemies.

Following Jesus was voluntary, from the inside out.
Following Muhammad could be coerced, from the outside in.

A martyr in Christian and Jewish thought is one who dies for his faith.
A martyr in Islamic thought is one who dies for his faith while killing infidels.

Christianity teaches God wants a personal relationship with each individual.
Islam teaches individuals cannot have a personal relationship with Allah, as he is transcendent and unknowable.

Jesus' religion is known for forgiveness and love.
Muhammad's religion is known for obedience and fear.

None of Jesus' Apostles led armies. A village did not receive Jesus "and when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did?' But he turned and rebuked them, and said, 'Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'" (Luke 9:52-56)

All of the caliphs who followed Muhammad led armies. (Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Muawiyya, the Umayyads, the Abbasids, etc.)

In the first 300 years of Christianity, there were 10 major Roman persecutions, and Christians were fed to lions in the Colosseum. Never did Christians lead an armed resistance against those who attacked them.

In the first 300 years of Islam, Muslim armies conquered Arabia, Persia, the Holy Land, North Africa, Spain, Southern France, Central Africa, and invaded vast areas of Asia and Asia Minor.

Jesus's teaching on how to treat enemies:

Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them which despitefully use you (Matthew 5:44).
Resist not evil (Matthew 5:39).
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to them the other (Matthew 5:39).
If someone takes your coat, give them your shirt (Matthew 5:40).
If someone make you carry something one mile, carry it two (Matthew 5:41).
Forgive and you shall be forgiven (Matthew 6:14).
Judge not, that ye be not judged (Matthew 7:1).
Blessed are the peacemakers (Matthew 5:9).
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy (Matthew 5:7).
Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not kill, but I say who ever is angry with his brother is in danger of the judgment (Matthew 5:21-22).
Treat others the same way you want them to treat you (Luke 6:27-36).
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, whatever you do to the very least you have done unto me (Matthew 25:40).
Muhammad's teaching on how to treat enemies:

Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE...mp;pageId=57615
"



Is this one-sided, or would you say it is true?

Your thoughts?

Great one.

And some still think Christians and muslims follow the same God.

How wrong they are. :(



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I don't think anyone disagrees that Jesus was a good man. Even Mohammed said he was his favorite Prophet. :)

Muslims call him Ruh'ullah, or the spirit of God.

You'll never find a Muslim who makes fun of Jesus or says anything bad about him.

If you do, it will have to be a really ignorant Muslim.

Quite right. I always laugh when Westerners think that Muslims dont want the Prophet ridiculed but that the Muslims make fun of Jesus themselves :p:p

Actually both Jesus and Mohammed are descended from Abraham, one from each son. Basic knowledge about Muslims and Christians, don't you know?Hey lets not forget Adam and Eve :p

First of all, please dont refer to me as an apologetic. I really hate that word. I would like to know why you keep referring to me as an apologetic?Arsalan - calling you an Apologist is a compliment. I'm very proud to be an apologist - when I am.

An Apologist is someone who defends the unpopular opinion. A good scientist can be an Apologist.

For most of Islamic history, Muslims have taken it for granted that Mohammad owned slaves - as in property. That's how they were able to justify the vile institution of Slavery for 1.5 thousand years. Unknown numbers of people were bought and sold, raped and mistreated, even castrated and murdered all because people found an excuse in their religion.

Now in the modern era we all agree that Slavery is f*cking sick in the head. So, what's a Good Muslim to do? Well well well - Mohammad never owned a Slave. Done.

Same with Xianity. Xians who were for Slavery recited crap from the OT BUT the Xians who were opposed became Apologists for the idea that the NT supersedes the OT and Jesus ain't no Slave holder! :) and Slavery is evil and sinful.

Theists are commonly called apologists because they change their fiddle to adapt to modern times. Happens all the time. It's the only way theists can move into the modern era and still believe in pixie dust. The ME seems a bit too backwards but that's because the common person hasn't had the means to be a modern apologist. But now they do and they will. Because of people like you, who are able to reinterpret the mythos, Muslims will be brought slowly into the modern age.

Don't be too surprised if you grandkids believe Mohammad was a monogamist

Michael

First of all, please dont refer to me as an apologetic. I really hate that word. I would like to know why you keep referring to me as an apologetic?

Secondly, they didnt volunteer to be slaves. They were people who chose to be with him. You said you would provide proof that he had slaves. Yet you did not deliver. I gave you the hadith regarding many people you would call slaves but whom the Prophet always let decide whatever they wanted to do. Ofcourse, otally forget the fact that the Muslim state got rid of the word slave. Why? Because capturing and enslaving free men and women was not allowed. Weve had this dicussion havent we?

Michael first decides what his opinion is then creates facts to support his opinion.:rolleyes:

Secondly, they didnt volunteer to be slaves. They were people who chose to be with him. You said you would provide proof that he had slaves. Yet you did not deliver. I gave you the hadith regarding many people you would call slaves but whom the Prophet always let decide whatever they wanted to do. Ofcourse, otally forget the fact that the Muslim state got rid of the word slave. Why? Because capturing and enslaving free men and women was not allowed. Weve had this dicussion havent we?
Arsalan, did Muslims buy and sell people during the last 1500 years?

If yes, how could they do it and still be a "good" Muslim? Did they use some Hadith or Qur'anic-entanglement to justify Slavery?


From an Islamic Apologis (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544596)t:
When Islam was reveled to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), slavery was a worldwide common social phenomenon; it was much older than Islam. Slavery was deeply rooted in every society to the extent that it was impossible to imagine a civilized society without slaves. In spite of this social fact, Islam was the first religion to recognize slavery as a social illness that needed to be addressed. Since slavery was deeply rooted in the society, Islam did not abolish it at once. Rather, Islam treated slavery in the same manner it treated other social illnesses.

Michael



See, I often think it's quite remarkable that General Mao was (in about 10 years) able to abolish Slavery AND polygamy. WoW no wonder a billion Chinese revered him as a God and the Communist Manifesto as His Written Word of God - The Last General Mao (PBUH) was able to do what Allah was not able to do; abolish Slavery and polygamy in a few years. Just amazing huh? Wow man - it's like "Scientific Proof" of Mao's Divinity :p


PS: Did you know the GW Bush is a direct descendant of Mohammad? Haaaa! That's so funny :D

Michael first decides what his opinion is then creates facts to support his opinion.:rolleyes:Haa we are talking about invisible Sky Gods, winged magic horses, Xenu (PBUH) and DC10-looking UFOs, Perfect Books, and splitting moons ... are we not my dear?

:p
Michael

OK, lets drop down one more level just to look around:
Bush and Mohammad .. sitting in a tree .. Key Eye Ess Ess Eye En Gee ... 1st comes... :p

I'd also like to note, Slavery was not practiced world-wide. Some societies had already banned Slavery. The Japanese for example.

Anyway: Wiki
Islam and slavery

The major juristic schools of Islam traditionally accepted the institution of slavery.[1] Muhammad and many of his companions bought, sold, freed, and captured slaves. Slaves benefited from Islamic dispensations which improved their situation relative to that in pre-Islamic society.[1][2] At the end of 19th century a shift in Muslim thought and interpretation of the Qur'an occurred, and slavery became seen as opposed to Islamic principles of justice and equality.[3] This interpretation has not been accepted by Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia.[4]

In Islamic law , the topic of Islam and slavery is covered at great length.[1] The Qur'an, the holy book, and the hadith, the sayings of Muhammed, see slavery as an exceptional condition that can be entered into under certain limited circumstances.[4] They also consider manumission of a slave to be one of many meritorious deeds available for the expiation of sins.[5] For a variety of reasons, internal growth of the slave population was not enough to fulfill the demand in Muslim society. This resulted in massive importation, which involved enormous suffering and loss of life from the capture and transportation of slaves from non-Muslim lands.[6] In theory, slavery in Islamic law does not have a racial or color component, although this has not always been the case in practice.[7]

The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa and East Africa. and by the end of the 19th century such activity had reached a low ebb. In the early 20th century (post World War I) slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[4] However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the African republics of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Sudan.[8][9][10]

Bet you wrote that wiki yourself.

Bet you wrote that wiki yourself.

who captured the slaves sold to the US?

Bet you wrote that wiki yourself.
Actually I don't know how to write a wiki BUT after my next paper is published I'm going to learn how to and then write a wiki about it :)

who captured the slaves sold to the US?

The ancestors of the guys who are the dictators and kings today, of course. :rolleyes:

The ancestors of the guys who are the dictators and kings today, of course. :rolleyes:

i thought they are arabs and muslims. silly me.

http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles_ca/2004-4-TheScourgeofSlavery.htm

i thought they are arabs and muslims. silly me.

http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles_ca/2004-4-TheScourgeofSlavery.htm

So are the dictators and kings today. :confused:

So are the dictators and kings today. :confused:

so few?

who captured the slaves sold to the US?

Most of teh African slaves were sold to the US by their own people :(

i thought they are arabs and muslims. silly me.

http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles_ca/2004-4-TheScourgeofSlavery.htm

The irony of a Christian site talking about the "scourge of slavery" in Islam :rolleyes:

I'd also like to note, Slavery was not practiced world-wide. Some societies had already banned Slavery. The Japanese for example.

Anyway: Wiki

I just want to point out that Wiki is not a reliable academic source. It is useful for up to date news on stuff and maybe some figures, but it is not a reliable source. Thats what the tutors at my university keep hammering in as well.

Arsalan - calling you an Apologist is a compliment. I'm very proud to be an apologist - when I am.

An Apologist is someone who defends the unpopular opinion. A good scientist can be an Apologist.

But then youre assuming that what I am saying is not the commong belief among Muslims. And that is where I disagree.

Theists are commonly called apologists because they change their fiddle to adapt to modern times. Happens all the time. It's the only way theists can move into the modern era and still believe in pixie dust. The ME seems a bit too backwards but that's because the common person hasn't had the means to be a modern apologist. But now they do and they will. Because of people like you, who are able to reinterpret the mythos, Muslims will be brought slowly into the modern age.

First of all, I suggest you read up on the Mujaddids and what they did.

Secondly, Id just like you to note that what I believe, has been preached for over 100s of years and indeed by the Prophet as well ;)

Don't be too surprised if you grandkids believe Mohammad was a monogamist

Since I dont see anything wrong with marriages with consent I dont think thats going to happen :shrug:

Arsalan, did Muslims buy and sell people during the last 1500 years?

Not all, just some rogue traders. The same question can be asked to you: do Americans kill each other? Does that mean that its the law? No, these things happen, people take advantage of a situation. The Quran clearly states capturing and imprisoning a free men or woman is never allowed.

See, I often think it's quite remarkable that General Mao was (in about 10 years) able to abolish Slavery AND polygamy. WoW no wonder a billion Chinese revered him as a God and the Communist Manifesto as His Written Word of God - The Last General Mao (PBUH) was able to do what Allah was not able to do; abolish Slavery and polygamy in a few years. Just amazing huh? Wow man - it's like "Scientific Proof" of Mao's Divinity :p

Mao crushed his people and killed well over 40 million who didnt agree with him or his plans. The Prophet was not a dictator like Mao and he never forced anyone to do anything altough it was mostly his enemies forcing stuff on the Muslims. So that is wher your argument has its fundamental flaw.


PS: Did you know the GW Bush is a direct descendant of Mohammad? Haaaa! That's so funny :D

IIRC, someone noted on that other thread that the bloodlines mixed way later than of that Claire (Was that her?) persons bloodline. Dunno :shrug: But the fact is that a lot of people are nowadays his descendent. John Kerry for example. And the Queen. And maybe Bush, I dont know.

u have dark image about islam and quran.
The Historic Context and the Nature of the Holy Quran

It should be emphasized that so many revelations in the Holy Quran came down to provide guidance to Prophet Muhammad and the Muslims based on what they were confronting at that time. Therefore, it is important to understand and know the historic context of the revelations for a proper understanding of these verses.

The Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, was the peace maker of his time. He endured torture, hunger and the killing of his loved ones by his enemies, but he remained a merciful person. In his most startling conquest of Makkah only four people died. In his 23 years of struggle for Islam, the total number of people who lost their lives from all sides was less than 2,000 in wars that were imposed on him and the Muslim community.




How about these verses
mankind! We created you from a single (pair of a) male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (one who is) the most righteous of you.... (Al-Hujurat 49:13)

mankind! Be mindful of your Guardian-Lord Who created you from a single person. Created, of like nature, his mate and from them twain scattered countless men and women. Be mindful of Allah through Whom you demand (your mutual rights), and (be mindful of violating relations based on) the wombs; for Allah ever watches over you. (Al-Nisa 4:1)

An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor has a non-Arab over an Arab. You are all born of Adam, and Adam was made out of clay."

Alif Laam Raa. A book which we have revealed to you (Muhammad) so that you may lead the people from out of the darknesses into the light by their Lord's leave to the path of the All-Mighty, the Praiseworthy." [Qur'an 14:1]

the last gathering with the Ummah (nation) during the Hajj season, the Hajj of Wada' (Farewell) a sermon was delivered by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) at the valley of Arafat about 81 or 82 days before his death. It contained the very fundamentals of Islam.

"O people, lend me and attentive ear, for I know not whether, after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.
O people, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury, therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived.

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hopes that he will be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O people, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in mildness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to commit adultery.

O people, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah (SWT), say your five daily prayers, fast during the month of Ramadhan, and give your wealth in zakat. Perform hajj if you can afford to. You know that every Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. You are all equal. Nobody has superiority over the other except by piety and good deeds.

Remember, one day your will appear before Allah (SWT) and answer for your deeds. So beware, do not go astray from the path of righteousness after my death.

O people, no Prophet or Messenger will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore,

O people, and understand my words, which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my example, the Sunnah, and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness O' Allah, (SWT) that I have conveyed Your message to Your slaves."

The importance of this sermon can be seen from the Prophet's perception that this occasion may be the last one during his lifetime. He felt that this was the right time to summarize the principles of Islam to his fellow brothers and sisters.
By the perfection of this religion, it means that there's no need for humanity, and for the Muslims in particular, to look for another alternative way of life. As long as one holds fast to the two things left behind by the Prophet (the Qur'an and the Sunnah), one will never go astray.

pls read this article about the prophet mohamed
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/asblessing/