Hay,

I'm sure you all get sick of us Christians attacking your beliefs (who wouldn't) so I'm inviting you all to attack Christian belief. Please choose only one argument/reason each, regarding why Christian belief is wrong (make it your best one). Also please don't send me a 25 page essay on how Christianity is false. I can't eat an elephant whole, just give me pieces I can actually chew and reply to. - I'm not ignorant of evolutionary belief and some terms it uses, but please don't assume that I know everything about science, as I only have a basic knowledge for such things. However any argument based on religious belief or logic or atheistic belief is welcome no matter how complex.

Thanks :D

CyA's

A simple one.

There is no single fact that you can show that demonstrates the existence of God. Why then continue to believe that a God exists? Isn't this simply irrational?

Faith demonstrates the existence of God, and you can only realise the existence of God through Faith.

Greetings answers. Thank you for this excellent thread. My questions are not an attack on Christian, but I would like to learn more about Christianity since there are a lot of stuff I don't agree with it. Thanks.

1. Why is it that you send thousands of missionaries throughout the world and Islam sends none, yet Islam is the fastest growing religion?

2. If man was created after God's image and man is a sinner, would that mean God is a sinner too?

3. Why are women considered spirtually and physically inferior? Well, I know the answer to that, but I would like your opinion on it?

4. Why must you say that Jesus is the only way into heaven? There are other quotes in the Bible which say that there are other ways to get to heaven. Someone told me that it was like that until Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice and then now there was only one way.

5. In addition to question 4, does that mean that God changes his mind?

6. You say that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as his savior will go to hell. Well, that is unreasonable to anyone who is not Christian. What is your opinion on that?

7. Why do you say Jesus is God when Jesus himself prayed to God for help?

Originally posted by Vienna
Faith demonstrates the existence of God, ...
To blather inane absurdities such as this does little to promote respect for theism. Faith in God demonstrates the existence of God no more than faith in the efficacy of witch-burning demonstrates the existence of witches.

Originally posted by Pakman
1. Why is it that you send thousands of missionaries throughout the world and Islam sends none, yet Islam is the fastest growing religion? Was it alsays so? Note: the current superior rate of growth of Islam is no more a confirmation of Islam than was the past superior rate of growth of Christianity a confirmation of Christianity. Religion aside, it saddens me that you are apparently too ignorant to understand this. I suspect that this remarkable ignorance goes a long way to explain your naive religious zeal.

I am not offering up any challenges right now.
I am just posting to say that if you are doing this in an effort to challenge and question your faith and the validity of your beliefs under scrutiny by other points of view, then I commend you (for whatever that may be worth).

I have to say, that many (if not most) of the Christians I have come into contact with, not only do not do this as a general rule, they outright refuse to even consider it because they "know the truth" :rolleyes: and don't need to question their faith in God.
That is one of my biggest complaints about Christians in general.

Originally posted by Pakman


1. Why is it that you send thousands of missionaries throughout the world and Islam sends none, yet Islam is the fastest growing religion?
I believe it is because other religions are dying faster than Islam is growing, this is only my opinion.

2. If man was created after God's image and man is a sinner, would that mean God is a sinner too?
No - sin was created by a fallen angel, it's a long story.. lol! Perhaps someone else could explain this one better than I can

3. Why are women considered spirtually and physically inferior? Well, I know the answer to that, but I would like your opinion on it?
In my opinion this was mankind at work altering the Bible to a means, I believe in sexual equality regardless what is written in the Bible.

4. Why must you say that Jesus is the only way into heaven? There are other quotes in the Bible which say that there are other ways to get to heaven. Someone told me that it was like that until Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice and then now there was only one way.
This goes back to the sin question, Jesus took away all our sins so that we may enter Heaven

5. In addition to question 4, does that mean that God changes his mind?
It would be impossible for God to change his mind, for if he did then he would be a liar, which he cannot be.

6. You say that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as his savior will go to hell. Well, that is unreasonable to anyone who is not Christian. What is your opinion on that?
If you know of Jesus yet do not accept him as your Saviour, then yes, this is the case.

7. Why do you say Jesus is God when Jesus himself prayed to God for help?
God is the Father, God is the Son, God is the Spirit, Three in One. Jesus is part of the Trinity.

Sorry Pakman, I know my answers are rushed and pretty short, I am turning the computer off soon and I know that there are others on these boards who can give you much better answers.

:)

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Was it alsays so? Note: the current superior rate of growth of Islam is no more a confirmation of Islam than was the past superior rate of growth of Christianity a confirmation of Christianity. Religion aside, it saddens me that you are apparently too ignorant to understand this. I suspect that this remarkable ignorance goes a long way to explain your naive religious zeal.

Islam was not spread by force. Today, people pick up the Quran and convert. Muslim people don't go to other people's houses and pass out Qurans and so. Nor do they enslave people saying their religion is superior. But I digress.

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
To blather inane absurdities such as this does little to promote respect for theism. Faith in God demonstrates the existence of God no more than faith in the efficacy of witch-burning demonstrates the existence of witches.
This may suprise you but I understand what you mean.

Take a child who has wholeheartedly believed in Santa Claus, then comes the fateful day when he/she realises the truth, that Santa doesn't really exist.

The tearful child is then comforted by the parents saying "There, there"

The child then says "But what about God, doesn't he exist either?"

And the parents say "Of course he exists".

Absurd isn't it?

Thank you Vienna. I like to ask another question.

Originally posted by Vienna
In my opinion this was mankind at work altering the Bible to a means, I believe in sexual equality regardless what is written in the Bible.

So do you acknowledge that the Bible was changed?

If I attack vienna's religion, he might convert to atheism. ;)

Originally posted by Pakman
Thank you Vienna. I like to ask another question.
So do you acknowledge that the Bible was changed?
It is only my opinion, but yes I do believe the book has been changed by mankind along it's journey to the present day, especially about sexual ineqaulities. There are too many discrepencies in the Bible too, not forgetting that the Bible is not just one book but many books written by many people, Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Bible is untrue because the truth is there to be found.

Please don't claim that the books of Qur'an are infallible too, for although the truth for yourself is in Qur'an, it is without doubt words will have been changed and manipulated in that too.

I don't mean intend to offend you, but this is what I firmly believe.

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
To blather inane absurdities such as this does little to promote respect for theism. Faith in God demonstrates the existence of God no more than faith in the efficacy of witch-burning demonstrates the existence of witches.

:confused:

Statements like this make me wonder if you understand what a witch is, exactly? Would it make sense to say, "Faith in God demonstrates the existence of God no more than faith in the efficacy of persecuting Mormons demonstrates the existence of Mormons"? Or Catholics, or Protestants, or Buddhists, or [insert religion of choice here].

Originally posted by Vienna
In my opinion this was mankind at work altering the Bible to a means, I believe in sexual equality regardless what is written in the Bible.

It would be impossible for God to change his mind, for if he did then he would be a liar, which he cannot be.

These answers strike me as curious...

If you say that the Bible has been altered with by mankind, and you believe what you believe regardless of what the Bible says, how do you know what was and what was not tampered with?

You say it is impossible for God to be a liar, but how do you know this?
From what the Bible says?
But you said the Bible was tampered with...:confused: :bugeye:

See what I mean?

In Genesis, the Bible says that God mandated for mankind to not eat the meat of animals:
Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Yet in Leviticus 11 God says (among other things) that it is OK to eat meat providing that it is prepared following strict Kosher practices:
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.

3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is cloven-footed, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.

4 Nevertheless, these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

Then in Matthew 15 and Mark 7 Jesus (who you said is God, although the Bible does not) says that Mosaic law no longer applies:
Matthew15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20 these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written,
This people honoreth me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10 For Moses said,
Honor thy father and thy mother; and,
Whoso curseth father or mother,
let him die the death:

11 but ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

12 And ye suffer him no more to do aught for his father or his mother;

13 making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:

15 there is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

19 because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Yet you say that if God changes his mind, that makes him a liar.
I don't understand.

Originally posted by Vienna
It is only my opinion, but yes I do believe the book has been changed by mankind along it's journey to the present day, especially about sexual ineqaulities. There are too many discrepencies in the Bible too...

So the question I ask (and wonder if you have honestly asked yourself) is:

Are your beliefs, decisions and lifestyle results of your faith in the Bible...
or
Is your faith in the Bible contingent upon your beliefs, decisions and lifestyle?

Why would a "god", particularly one that sets himself up in "holy doctrine" as a parental figure not reveal himself to his "children", and then sentance them all to eternal damnation for not believing?

Don't tell me that it's necessary for one to "prove their faith" by believing in an invisible god in order to be "saved" and delivered into his kingdom. That's irrational and stupid. If I recieved letters from an organization claiming to represent a biological father I had never met (and who is supposedly perfect) that said that I would recieve a great inheritence if I swore to believe in him and follow his written commandments, and moreover, that I would die painfully if I did not believe and obey and surrender my freedom...well, I'd tell 'em to stick it. This "god" and his "bible" are no more preposterous or offensive in nature.

Originally posted by answers
Please choose only one argument/reason each, regarding why Christian belief is wrong (make it your best one).

Only one, huh? What to choose, what to choose? Well, I guess I would have to give a brief outline of the kind of person Jesus was, based on the things he allegedly said and did (as recorded by his biographers):

Jesus demonstrated no love or respect for his own family, and he demanded that his would-be followers hate their families. He was smart-mouthed to his mother, and he lied to his brothers. He stated that his mission on earth was to cause division within families, and he couldn't wait to get started on it. He destroyed a fig tree for the purpose of impressing his disciples with his mysterious powers. When trying to prove he was the fulfillment of OT prophecy, he had his disciples steal an ass and her foal. Jesus said that the sickness that caused Lazarus to die was all for the purpose of glorifying him (Jesus). Jesus told his disciples to prepare for his arrest by arming themselves with swords (obviously he must have had some reason for this - yes?), but when the time came and one of his disciples actually used his sword to cut off the ear of the priest's servant, Jesus chastised him, saying he must drink from the cup his Father has given him, and he healed the man's ear (again - this was all for show - why the swords if he didn't expect them to use them???).

These are just a few things I have problems with, and I have to ask myself - why would a man who is supposed to be God, and/or the "only begotton Son of God," or even a Messiah, for that matter, do such things? Obviously, he wouldn't.

Vienna,

Faith demonstrates the existence of God, How? What facts do you have to support this claim?

Since faith requires no evidence or proof your claim is equal in value to these statements –

Faith demonstrates the existence of fairies.
Faith demonstrates the existence of the wizard of Oz.
Faith demonstrates the existence of flying pigs.
Faith demonstrates the existence of leprechauns.
Faith demonstrates the existence of any imaginary fantasy one cares to name.

Without something of substance the claims of faith are as useful as a house made of air.

Re: Come and attack Christian belief please

Being born into a Christian family and having been brought up to respect all faiths by my parents, one of the major gripes I have with Christianity, and other faiths as well, is the notion of superiority. Each think they are better then the rest and each attempts to insult the other. Why can't people just have their beliefs and be happy with that, instead of trying to abuse others for theirs. Does Christianity approve of insulting others for their beliefs? Not that I'm aware of. Does Islam do the same? Having asked many muslim friends and family members, they don't think so either.

Do I believe that there is something out there that is bigger than I am, definitely yes. But that does not give me the right to preach to others about how bad their individual beliefs are. Christians, Jews and Muslims should just learn to butt out of each other's religions and beliefs and learn to respect that they have differing views on certain things. None is superior to the other. All believe in the same God. So why in the hell does everyone think that they are better than the other? Having read these threads under this topic, I have seen Muslims being called the anti-christ and christians being called dirty pigs and infidels. All that proves is that there are some very small minded people out there who have a superiority complex and have failed to see what their religion is truly about. Doesn't God preach that one is meant to be respectful of others, to not be judgemental of other individuals? Remembering back to the religious education that my parents made me take as a child, I do not remember God ever encouraging people to hate each other. In fact wasn't it the other way around? The way that some denigrate the beliefs of others in here, it only goes to prove that they missed the point of God completely and have only let their PERSONAL hate dictate how they see other religious groups in society.



:eek:

Originally posted by one_raven
If you say that the Bible has been altered with by mankind, and you believe what you believe regardless of what the Bible says, how do you know what was and what was not tampered with?
I don't know exactly, but anything which contradicts itself is suspect for sure.

Put it another way, when has mans view of things ever been perfect, when has anything that man has written been pure truth.

If God had written the Bible or Qur'an it would never need to be translated, it would never be in a certain "tongue". I believe it would be available to be read by anyone in the world without the need for translation, or the need for theoligians.

Vienna,

Quote Vienna:
"If God had written the Bible or Qur'an it would never need to be translated, it would never be in a certain "tongue". I believe it would be available to be read by anyone in the world without the need for translation, or the need for theoligians."

This displays a definate anti-christian pov. Groovy, I like it, it makes sense. But then,

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. If man was created after God's image and man is a sinner, would that mean God is a sinner too?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote Vienna:
"No - sin was created by a fallen angel, it's a long story.. lol! Perhaps someone else could explain this one better than I can"

And this displays a christian pov. Where do you stand?

Originally posted by stretched
Vienna,

Quote Vienna:
"If God had written the Bible or Qur'an it would never need to be translated, it would never be in a certain "tongue". I believe it would be available to be read by anyone in the world without the need for translation, or the need for theoligians."

This displays a definate anti-christian pov. Groovy, I like it, it makes sense.
Hello Stretched

I don't intend to preach anything that is anti-Christian, if I have then I apologise. These are only my personal views in some areas of Christianity

Quote Vienna:
"No - sin was created by a fallen angel, it's a long story.. lol! Perhaps someone else could explain this one better than I can"

And this displays a christian pov. Where do you stand?

Where do I stand? Well, thats a fair question.

I used to believe in Jesus Christ and God without any fear of contradiction.

But events happen in ones life when you question your faith, and whether there is a God after all. But even in times of doubt I try not to forget the teachings of Jesus.

There are good standards here to live by, and I still try to keep to them (sometimes not very well) when my faith and belief in God escapes me.

Pakman wrote about 7 questions, after I said to write one, but because I’m just soooooo nice I’m going to answer them all lol. By the way it is 1:35am in the morning right now, so these answers may not make much sense, I may need to correct them when I’m more awake :D


QUESTION 1. Why is it that you send thousands of missionaries throughout the world and Islam sends none, yet Islam is the fastest growing religion?

ANSWER 1: I guess I can only give you my thoughts on this one, but I guess that’s what you’re asking for. Now Christians send missionaries because Jesus said go out to the entire world preaching the good news and making disciples of my people (not exact quote but too tired to look it up). So that’s why missionaries go out, because Jesus tells us too, and when you believe that Jesus went to hell and back for you, then you don’t mind going to China and back for him.

The reasons I think Islam is growing faster are as follows:

1st: Arabic countries have no tolerance for any belief other than Islam, thus with no opposition Islam spreads faster (no tolerance can be shown in many quotes from the Qu’ran, one that comes to mind goes something like ‘deal with those who preach a message other then Islam, as your province demands’ – it is something like that, I can find it for you when I have more time) And it is my impression that the way Islamic provinces deal with anti Islamic preaching, is to kill the preacher – a very effective method I might add :P Now Christianity also puts pressure on people to be Christian, yet they are tolerant of other beliefs, some may disagree but when compared to Islam Christianity is extremely tolerant.

2nd: And this is totally just what I have heard from people, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was wrong, it is an opinion I have come to by my own logic so I hope it is a least partially correct. – Okay Muslims can’t use birth control. Christians can. So Christians end up raising around 2 Christian children, while Muslims raise around 5 or so Muslim children. So the growth of Islam isn’t because it is converting people throughout the entire world like Christianity, it is at least partly due to the fact that Muslims raise so many Muslims. If this has offended anyone because it is wrong, then I’m sorry, I’m definitely up for discussion on this point of view, as I would like to test the truth of it. Thanks.

Sorry I had other reasons in my head only a few minutes ago, but it’s too late at night and they’ve just gone.


QUESTION 2. If man was created after God's image and man is a sinner, would that mean God is a sinner too?

ANSWER 2: Man was created after God’s image, yes he was indeed, and so was woman for that matter. And when they were created they were perfect, absolutely nothing wrong with them. No lies’, no hatred, no dandruff, nothing wrong at all. But you see as history has shown us time and time again, man can take a perfect situation, and turn it into an utter disaster. Why? It’s because we have choice. To choose good or bad. I’m going to discuss epistemology and (that other big word about truth lol) in another post, so I’ll just say something very simplistic here. Good is what God says is good, bad is what God says is bad. Now God said to Adam and Eve, that it’s bad to choose to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (personally I think God was being way too easy here, like I already don’t like fruit, so I don’t see how it could be sooo tempting) But because God didn’t want Adam and Eve to be mindless followers, who had no choice of what they wanted to do or who they followed (as in he didn’t want puppets) he gave them the choice to do what is right (what He says to do) or what is wrong (what He says not to do). And long story short we made the wrong choice.

So God isn’t a sinner at all, He is just someone who always makes the right choice, man is the one that chooses bad. We are in His likeness because we can choose, but our choices are what separate us.


QUESTION 3. Why are women considered spiritually and physically inferior? Well, I know the answer to that, but I would like your opinion on it?

ANSWER 3: Women aren’t spiritually inferior, and I’ve met many a woman who could smash me down, so they aren’t physically inferior either lol. This is such a huge topic that I will just reveal the top of the iceberg on. Jesus said, “Whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, all are made equal in me”. So we are equal. Now we bring up what people think are contradictions to what Jesus said. Such as the husband being the head of the house etc. Some of what the apostle Paul writes on this is based on the culture of the day (e.g. women must not ask a question in church, but ask their husbands later etc…). But some is more deeper then that. Basically throughout both the New and Old Testaments, the way man and woman are meant to work in a relationship is this. They get married; the woman lets the husband lead the way, while she is an example to him. Now this doesn’t make them unequal (wasn’t Jesus sent as an example for us, and he by no means is less then us just because we make the decision to follow His example or not), it just gives them different roles. Logically I can say; if we have two leaders in a relationship, then one will go one way and the other the other way (divorce). Yet the way God has set it up, is that the woman is the example to the husband, as in she shows him how he is supposed to act, and basically influences the husbands decisions. The husband is supposed to listen to his wife, and act accordingly. Now when the wife isn’t a good example, the husband makes bad decisions. This can be seen when Eve eats the forbidden fruit, and then Adam seeing her example, decides to do the same. Eve did the wrong thing, and stuffed it up for Adam because that’s the way a relationship works, they both suffer for the ones decision, because they are both connected in that relationship. Now Adam, because he is the head of the relationship, was held responsible for what they had done wrong, and because they were both connected, both were thrown out of what was heaven on earth, the Garden of Eden. Now this story is very symbolic, but as I have shown you, it has consistent truths within it.


QUESTION 4. Why must you say that Jesus is the only way into heaven? There are other quotes in the Bible, which say that there are other ways to get to heaven. Someone told me that it was like that until Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice and then now there was only one way.


ANSWER 4: Okay we say Jesus is the only way to Heaven, because Jesus said ‘I’m the only way to heaven.’ Well He actually said; “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.” Now the Old Testament is where you’ll get the quotes saying that there are other ways to Heaven. E.g. through obeying the law (basically the Ten Commandments) and when the law isn’t obeyed, you must sacrifice an animal or burn some grain or whatever to pay for your sins (not keeping the law). Now I think God had the foresight to tell that this way couldn’t last. For cultural reasons alone, like imagine a modern day westerner going out into the back yard to fire up the altar. And secondly, that arrangement of following the law was both extremely hard and temporary. That’s where the New Testament comes in. Now God wanted to make a sacrifice on our behalf, so little bah bah black sheep didn’t have to die every time some jerk didn’t follow the law. And also because He loves us lol. Nah God made the sacrifice so we didn’t have to, so that it would be easy for us to get to Heaven, because God does in fact love us, and wants us to be with Him for eternity. Now the sacrifice God was going to make, had to not only be big, it had to be huge, gigantic, and immense :P It had to pay the debt of countless present and future sins that humans make constantly. This payment had to be bigger then just a few sheep, it had to be God’s very own Son. This was the greatest sacrifice possible for God to make; yet He loves us so much that He made that sacrifice for us. And all we have to do to get saved, is to accept what God offers, and God offers us Jesus’ sacrificed on the cross, God offers us the payment for our sin (forgiveness), yes that’s right, God offers us Heaven with him for eternity.

Now God didn’t just make a new way to get saved, he got rid of the old ways to get saved as well. No longer could we get saved from sacrificing little sheep or pigs, or burning grain, or living by the law. No God got rid of that now culturally unacceptable practice, that outdated, and temporary practice, and replaced it with Jesus’ offer of salvation. If you ask me I’m glad that God changed the way we are to be saved.


QUESTION 5. In addition to question 4, does that mean that God changes his mind?

ANSWER 5: Okay now if I want to go down to the shop and buy me a pizza, I make up my mind and say, I’m gonna buy me a pizza. Now if I get in the car to go down there, and discover that the car is broken down, what do I do? I tell you what I do, I’m darn hungry, and I really want that pizza, so I sacrifice my money and get it delivered. Now my money is really important to me, but because I want that pizza so much, I sacrifice my money anyway.

Now did my mind change? At the start I wanted pizza, at the end I wanted pizza. Just because I got it a different way, doesn’t mean my mind changed from what I had decided to get.

We are God’s pizza :P God really wants a relationship with us. God found that to get that relationship He had to get rid of the old broken down car of the Old Testament, and replace it with the sacrifice of His only Son. Yet during this changing of ways to be saved, God didn’t change His mind, His mind was unfalteringly set on saving us.


QUESTION 6. You say that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as his savior will go to hell. Well, that is unreasonable to anyone who is not Christian. What is your opinion on that?

ANSWER 6: Of course it is unreasonable to a person who isn’t saved. It’s like trying to make a blind man comprehend the sky. The Bible goes as far as to say that with man, making someone understand and realize the truth of Jesus Christ, is impossible. But it also goes on to say, that with God all things are possible. Hey if you think that Jesus being the only way to Heaven is unreasonable, then you need God to explain some things to you. And He just so happened to write a very very long explanation called the Bible, maybe you should read it. :D


QUESTION 7. Why do you say Jesus is God when Jesus himself prayed to God for help?

ANSWER 7: God is triune. He is made up of the Holy Spirit, The Father, and The Son. They are God, and if mere humans could comprehend something so complex then it would bring God down to our extremely low level of understanding, a level I would personally not be able to bring myself to worship. Our understanding, not so long ago, told us that the Earth was flat, and everything revolved around it. How can we understand God when we have just now started to understand our very own planet?

But there is one thing I can say that may reveal something of God’s nature to you. And that is that like time, God is one. Time is past, time is present, time is future. But although time is three things, in essence they are all just time. God is the Father, God is the Son, God is the Holy Spirit. But although God is three things, in essence they are all one God.

I hope these answers have been helpful, it is now 3:07am and I really have to be off to bed.

CyA’s

Come and attack Christian belief please.

Ok.

Christians (like most people) are selfish, ass-kissing creatures. They kiss the ass of God soley for self-preservation, yet claim to be doing it in the name of righteousness.

They never care to consider what is wrong about God. They don't care about all those poor souls suffering in hell, because caring would be putting their own ass on the line. This is because when you start to care about these things, you create an uneasy conflict between your own self-interest and the well-being of others. So christians remove themselves from this path to self-enlightenment, and instead spend there time caring about relatively trivial matters such as not judging others, forgiveness, and saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes.

But what about hell? Does any christian honestly believe that any human deserves torturous eternal punishment, simply for not believing in something that really is not very believable? Is the act of having doubt so bad as to warrent this eternal torment? Of course not. So how can Christians overlook this? How can they not care? It's just so inhumane to be so uncaring for your fellow man that way.

If christains "cared" so much for other people, then they would not be christain at all. Because as a truely caring person, it's impossible to divert your attention from such an atrocity.

There's a difference between righteousness and self-righteouness.

Originally posted by matnay
Come and attack Christian belief please.

Ok.

Christians (like most people) are selfish, ass-kissing creatures. They kiss the ass of God soley for self-preservation, yet claim to be doing it in the name of righteousness.

They never care to consider what is wrong about God. They don't care about all those poor souls suffering in hell, because caring would be putting their own ass on the line. This is because when you start to care about these things, you create an uneasy conflict between your own self-interest and the well-being of others. So christians remove themselves from this path to self-enlightenment, and instead spend there time caring about relatively trivial matters such as not judging others, forgiveness, and saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes.

But what about hell? Does any christian honestly believe that any human deserves torturous eternal punishment, simply for not believing in something that really is not very believable? Is the act of having doubt so bad as to warrent this eternal torment? Of course not. So how can Christians overlook this? How can they not care? It's just so inhumane to be so uncaring for your fellow man that way.

If christains "cared" so much for other people, then they would not be christain at all. Because as a truely caring person, it's impossible to divert your attention from such an atrocity.

There's a difference between righteousness and self-righteouness.
----------
M*W: As always, you're a breath of fresh air!

I agree that fear is usually the real motive behind "faith".

Cris Wrote this question

QUESTION: There is no single fact that you can show that demonstrates the existence of God. Why then continue to believe that a God exists? Isn't this simply irrational?

ANSWER: There are thousands of facts. Just none are good enough for athiests. I could write a list sooooooo long of facts. If you really want me to, tell me, but it'll take me hours, so I'll answer the other questions first.

Thanks

ConsequentAtheist wrote this to a person who posted a question in here:

Religion aside, it saddens me that you are apparently too ignorant to understand this. I suspect that this remarkable ignorance goes a long way to explain your naive religious zeal.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------You don't need to burn someone alive for asking a question. Of course the person is ignorant. What kind of person do you think asks a question, it's one that doesn't know the answer. Yes it is one that is ignorant. You go on about how ignorant others are, when you too are ignorant of millions of millions times more then what you could ever know. No human can know everything, so everyone is ignorant of something. Your very agnostic brothers proclaim their ignorance to the world. They we DON'T KNOW if there is a God, because they haven't seen enough evidence. Their lack of evidence, causes them to have a belief of ignorance.

So don't go telling people that they are ignorant and naive for asking a question. You don't have to be a bastard to prove a point, you can prove a point like Jesus did, or you can prove a point like Hitler did. I think the choice is easy.

CyA - by the way I have nothing against the point of your message, I just hate the attitude in which you wrote it.

Trivial can be defined as something one can live without. And guess what? Gods and religions fit this definition well.

one_raven wrote the following:

I am not offering up any challenges right now.
I am just posting to say that if you are doing this in an effort to challenge and question your faith and the validity of your beliefs under scrutiny by other points of view, then I commend you (for whatever that may be worth).

I have to say, that many (if not most) of the Christians I have come into contact with, not only do not do this as a general rule, they outright refuse to even consider it because they "know the truth" and don't need to question their faith in God.
That is one of my biggest complaints about Christians in general.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MY REPLY: Okay I can honestly say that I get more annoyed with Christians, than many atheists. They're not perfect, but that doesn't excuse their attitude. There are a couple types of Christians I have come across over the 14 or so years I've been a Christian.

1st Type: The HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY alien freak get away from me now before a shoot you type of Christian. My school chaplain fell under this category. This type of Christian simply does not have the brainpower needed to investigate their own beliefs, let alone the beliefs of others.

2nd Type: The ‘I'm a Christian because I've been going to church all my life’ type of Christian. This kind of Christian is too lazy to even become a Christian, because you don't become a Christian from going to church, you become one from giving your life to Christ. Now this type of Christian is too lazy to be what they say they are, let alone investigate what else they could be.

3rd Type: ‘I'm a Christian for social reasons’ type. These Christians leave church early, or stay out back during the service. They aren't interested in their own belief, and couldn't be stuffed finding out about any other beliefs.

THEN THERE IS ME, the 4th Type: We are extremely rare. We listen to sermons at church, and even outside of church on CD. We actually read the Bible. We have learnt about our own belief, and have found great confidence in it. We are so confident in fact that we go out and learn about other beliefs as well, to test our faith. We read about the joke of Mormonism, the stupidity of Jehovah Witness, the arguments of atheism which were proved wrong 25 years ago but are still used, we read about the self defeating belief of agnosticism, the satanic influence on New Age belief, the unlivable philosophies of Buddhism (like who could live their life while thinking that the world was a figment of their imagination). We investigate all these beliefs, and there is one thing we find that all these beliefs have in common. They're all wrong. And there is another thing we find over and over again, it's that every single argument these beliefs have against Christianity can either be convincingly fought against, or totally refuted. And it is when you become this kind of Christian that you become the kind of Christian the Bible tells us to be. The Bible says to have a ready answer for any question people ask you about your faith. But many Christians are happy with ignorance, and don't even have the desire for the wisdom that the Bible says is better then gold and silver. The Christians that don't fall into the fourth category fall away from Christianity and become backsliders, unless they are extremely lucky.

Anyway, hope that has been at least a bit interesting.

CyA's

Vienna, not meaning this in a bad way, but shut up and get out of my thread. Your answers scare me. They are so unbelievably cruddy that my stomach sunk when I read them. This thread is for attacks on Christianity, I'm the one defending and answering, not you. Make your own thread if you want to give out short and erroneous hollow bull crud answers to some very good questions. Please learn about Christianity before you try to preach it.

Hope you listen to this rebuke because you're leading people down a path that isn't Christian.

Thanks.

Originally posted by answers
Vienna, not meaning this in a bad way, but shut up and get out of my thread. Your answers scare me. They are so unbelievably cruddy that my stomach sunk when I read them. This thread is for attacks on Christianity, I'm the one defending and answering, not you. Make your own thread if you want to give out short and erroneous hollow bull crud answers to some very good questions. Please learn about Christianity before you try to preach it.

Hope you listen to this rebuke because you're leading people down a path that isn't Christian.

Thanks.

huh? Ansswers....what are you talking about? Don't be mean to vienna, he is a devout Christian, you shouldn't say anything like that to hurt his feelings.

So, "answers" did any one attack christianity yet? I didn't see any attacks but rather questions. I mean as you thought muslims might attack Christianity but they didn't and I understand that you are honest about the questions and answers, so please do not take my post as a negetive. Thank you.


I do have some questions which I will ask later, since I can't spend all day infront of computer. :)

A true Christian would understand why I was angry at Vienna's posts. People make the mistake of thinking Christianity = nice. No Christianity = truth. Truthfulness is more important than being nice. Especially when things like Vienna's posts take away glory from God. What did Jesus do when people turned God's temple into a market place, taking away God's glory? He went in there yelling at them to get out, and overturned their tables, and chased them away. It's called righteous anger, it’s the only type of anger, which a Christian is allowed (and commanded) to have. If you can sit back and watch someone spit in the face of someone you love, then I doubt you love that person. Similarly if you can sit back and watch someone say false things about God, taking away His glory, while that person says they're a follower, then you're not a true Christian.

Sure I care about Vienna, about his feelings etc. But the truth of God, and His glory is more important than anything else, and I won't sit by being nice, not rebuking someone who takes that truth and glory away.

If I was taking God’s glory away, I would expect a true Christian to rebuke me for it, because my feelings and my pride are worthless when compared to God’s truth and Glory.

If you had a child, who was attending school, and your child was being picked on, and you saw this, you would tell the kids picking on him to shut up and get lost. Why? Because you love your child and don’t want to see him get picked on. But if you went home that night, and started teasing your child as well, not even deliberately, you just saw him do something stupid and you thought you might make some “funny” comments on it. If you truly loved your child, and didn’t want to see him getting teased or picked on, then you would gladly accept your wife or someone else, tell you that you have done what you just that day told others not to do. You see true love for someone is greater then even the love you have for yourself, and true love sacrifices yourself in order to help another. That is the true principle of Christianity, one that I will never abandon.

Sure I said what I said in anger, but that doesn’t mean that I didn’t say it in love as well.

Complicated but it does make sense.

CyA

Questions are the best way to attack a person's beliefs. Jesus asked more questions then He made statements, because He was attacking the beliefs of the Pharisees. Man even a child can attack a belief by using questions. You say the sun rises in the morning, the child replies 'why?' You say because it always has 'why?' the child replies again. You say because it is part of nature 'why?'.......... Questions are the easiest way to attack someones beliefs, and that is why I welcome them. Because I'm confident that my beliefs can stand up to even the hardest attacks.

Anyway it's 2:52pm and I need breakfast :p

CyA's

answers,

There are many...but, my main peeve is how "god" demonstrated brutality... telling them to dash children into pieces before their parents eyes...then there is all the innocent babies and children that died in the flood.

I just can't see how killing children is good or right, yet your god did.

Then there was the time Elisha called a curse down on some children because they made fun of him for being bald. The two bears mauled 42 of the children.

How about when Uzzah tried to stop the ark of god from falling, because an ox stumbled, and "god" killed him because he touched it.

The threat of hell is nothing but a scare tactic- the "Do it my way or burn in hell". I have witnessed the damage christianity can bring because of this. I mean it's one thing to go about your business and believe as you wish..but, to bible thump and scare the living poop out of people is another. Just my two cents.

Originally posted by answers
There are a couple types of Christians I have come across over the 14 or so years I've been a Christian.

You forgot the ultimate.
The ones that do the most to give Christianity a bad name.
The ones that have done more to degrad the value of the organized religion of Christianity even more than people like me.

The Hypochristian, my favorite target, and possibly the most common.

The "Christians" who don't even bother trying to live by Christian values and ideals, but throw them at others like they are hand grenades.

The "Christians" that crucify others by quoting passages from the Bible at them, but are chock full of excuses and justifications why they are justified in ignoring the passages they don't live up to.

The "Christians" that beat their spouses/steal/cheat/lie/etc. only to pray to Jesus for forgiveness that night and continue with the same abhorable behavior the next day.

The "Christians" that ...

Well, I think you get the idea.

One raven: Yep some "Christians" really suck. But most of the "Christians" you described aren't Christians at all. Many people call themselves Christian, they say it with their words, but they don't show it with their actions. The Bible has a whole book dedicated to the subject of acting out what you say, and not just saying empty words. Forget what it is though, it's in the New Testament. Lol I should remember it considering I read a pasage from it in front of my church only a month or so ago. Hmmm...man my memory sucks lol. - It might be James, but I'm not too sure -

But anyway, the Book basically says those who say they are Christian aren't really Christians if they don't also say it with their actions as well. You can't say, I love God and all His creation honestly, if you're planning on cursing His name and bashing your wife later on that night.

However you need to understand that people suck. And Christians are people, they are saved people, but they are still people. I for one can say that I suck probably worse then most athiests. But lucky for me, I have a saviour that has paid for me sucking so much lol. And because I have seen the sacrifice Jesus made, I now try to live a life that shows my graditude to Him. Although I fail every single day. But all Jesus asks you to do is to try your best, even if it is mostly failure. He really has made it easy to be saved, there's no doubt of that.

CyA's

heart - I'm sure I can answer your questions and concerns. But it would be really helpful if you could post the verses which you are refering to. If you can't then I'll try to find them myself, but if that's the case, then you'll have to give me more time to write up the answers.

Thanks heaps

CyA

Vienna,
Thanks for your honesty brother.

Originally posted by answers
However you need to understand that people suck. And Christians are people, they are saved people, but they are still people. I for one can say that I suck probably worse then most athiests.
Isn't that how I sounded to you, and you judged me for it, note the word "Judged"!

Although I fail every single day. But all Jesus asks you to do is to try your best, even if it is mostly failure. He really has made it easy to be saved, there's no doubt of that.
I fail often, but does that make me any less of a Christian than you.
According to you it would appear so.

Here is what you said to me...

Originally posted by answers
Vienna, not meaning this in a bad way, but shut up and get out of my thread. Your answers scare me. They are so unbelievably cruddy that my stomach sunk when I read them. This thread is for attacks on Christianity, I'm the one defending and answering, not you. Make your own thread if you want to give out short and erroneous hollow bull crud answers to some very good questions. Please learn about Christianity before you try to preach it.

Hope you listen to this rebuke because you're leading people down a path that isn't Christian.

Christianity is on the decline (especially here in the UK) and reactions from people like "Answers" doesn't encourage Christianity one bit. If this is what a fellow Christian brother can think of me, then Christianity can go and get truly stuffed.

I will have more questions for you later "Answers", OK!

....many questions.

Originally posted by answers
It's called righteous anger, it’s the only type of anger, which a Christian is allowed (and commanded) to have.
And there I was thinking Christianity was all about love and peace. Who commanded and gave Christians the right to be angry, and why be angry at anyone for their choice, didn't God give mankind freewill?

If you can sit back and watch someone spit in the face of someone you love, then I doubt you love that person. Similarly if you can sit back and watch someone say false things about God, taking away His glory, while that person says they're a follower, then you're not a true Christian.
I feel that you are talking about the answers I gave. I was honest and gave truthful answers, isn't that Christian-like, if I'm wrong then tell me. I was also using the freewill that God gave me, am I wrong to use that gift, tell me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Vienna


I fail often, but does that make me any less of a Christian than you.
According to you it would appear so.




i saw in some post you said you are not christian? so what is it? please celar.

Originally posted by 567
i saw in some post you said you are not christian? so what is it? please celar.

I have posted this explanation a few times, here you are:

"Where do I stand? Well, thats a fair question.

I used to believe in Jesus Christ and God without any fear of contradiction.

But events happen in ones life when you question your faith, and whether there is a God after all. But even in times of doubt I try not to forget the teachings of Jesus.

There are good standards here to live by, and I still try to keep to them (sometimes not very well) when my faith and belief in God escapes me."

I'm a Christian who is questioning his faith.

People like Answers repel me from Christianity

And I want to see some answers to my questions from Answers!!!

MY REPLY: Okay I can honestly say that I get more annoyed with Christians, than many atheists. They're not perfect, but that doesn't excuse their attitude. There are a couple types of Christians I have come across over the 14 or so years I've been a Christian.

1st Type: The HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY alien freak get away from me now before a shoot you type of Christian. My school chaplain fell under this category. This type of Christian simply does not have the brainpower needed to investigate their own beliefs, let alone the beliefs of others.

2nd Type: The ‘I'm a Christian because I've been going to church all my life’ type of Christian. This kind of Christian is too lazy to even become a Christian, because you don't become a Christian from going to church, you become one from giving your life to Christ. Now this type of Christian is too lazy to be what they say they are, let alone investigate what else they could be.

3rd Type: ‘I'm a Christian for social reasons’ type. These Christians leave church early, or stay out back during the service. They aren't interested in their own belief, and couldn't be stuffed finding out about any other beliefs.

THEN THERE IS ME, the 4th Type: We are extremely rare. We listen to sermons at church, and even outside of church on CD. We actually read the Bible. We have learnt about our own belief, and have found great confidence in it. We are so confident in fact that we go out and learn about other beliefs as well, to test our faith. We read about the joke of Mormonism, the stupidity of Jehovah Witness, the arguments of atheism which were proved wrong 25 years ago but are still used, we read about the self defeating belief of agnosticism, the satanic influence on New Age belief, the unlivable philosophies of Buddhism (like who could live their life while thinking that the world was a figment of their imagination). We investigate all these beliefs, and there is one thing we find that all these beliefs have in common. They're all wrong. And there is another thing we find over and over again, it's that every single argument these beliefs have against Christianity can either be convincingly fought against, or totally refuted. And it is when you become this kind of Christian that you become the kind of Christian the Bible tells us to be. The Bible says to have a ready answer for any question people ask you about your faith. But many Christians are happy with ignorance, and don't even have the desire for the wisdom that the Bible says is better then gold and silver. The Christians that don't fall into the fourth category fall away from Christianity and become backsliders, unless they are extremely lucky.

Anyway, hope that has been at least a bit interesting.

CyA's [/B]

OOOOOKKKK...

You say you've been a Christian for ONLY 14 years yet you claim to be such a wise and knowable member?

We are so confident in fact that we go out and learn about other beliefs as well, to test our faith. We read about the joke of Mormonism, the stupidity of Jehovah Witness, the arguments of atheism which were proved wrong 25 years ago but are still used, we read about the self defeating belief of agnosticism, the satanic influence on New Age belief, the unlivable philosophies of Buddhism (like who could live their life while thinking that the world was a figment of their imagination). We investigate all these beliefs, and there is one thing we find that all these beliefs have in common. They're all wrong.

Pray tell, how do you test your faith? Do you sit there and compare their belief to yours? How do you know you are correct when you deem these other beliefs to be 'wrong'? Don't you think you're being judgemental in stating that all these other beliefs are wrong? Isn't God the one meant to judge and not the individual person?

You've even gone so far as stating that you're a better Christian then your school chaplain? Scarily interesting. So in the 14 years you see yourself as better than a priest in understanding the religion?

We are extremely rare. We listen to sermons at church, and even outside of church on CD.

You are rare because you are what catholic priests refer to as a church rat. Do you run eagerly to the priest to shake his hand after mass and praise him on how he's interpreted the bible just so, or do you critique him on how his sermon did not have enough zeal or praise god enough?

But anyway, the Book basically says those who say they are Christian aren't really Christians if they don't also say it with their actions as well.

So your actions is to judge others by YOUR standards and interpretation of what is in the bible or what YOU think God said? Who gave you the right to judge?

Similarly if you can sit back and watch someone say false things about God, taking away His glory, while that person says they're a follower, then you're not a true Christian.

I think I'm watching a self righteous someone do that right now... but then I guess I'm not a Christian.. I'm what Christians fear most. An agnostic:D. You know the people who question things. But then I've been a Christian for 32 years now and I matured and realised that the notion of the all saving and all conquering God and the notion that no matter what I do I shall be saved because I'm a Christian, was a fallacy... and I came to this realisation when I was around 3 or 4. But I was one of those children who always asked why... So that means that by your standards, I'm not a good christian... wooohoooooo!! Because I know that if I were to become a christian like you, even my mother (who is a strict follower of the church) would shoot me. She detests Christians who deem themselves worthy to to judge the beliefs of others to be wrong and unchristian like. But then hey, she's only been a strict Christian for more than 65 years or so now, what could she possibly know.

Originally posted by Markx
So, "answers" did any one attack christianity yet?

I think answers has done all the attacking him/herself.

Originally posted by Vienna
People like Answers repel me from Christianity

Nooooo I'm being forced to agree with Vienna on something again. I'm scared... hold me...

Originally posted by Answers
Vienna, not meaning this in a bad way, but shut up and get out of my thread. Your answers scare me. They are so unbelievably cruddy that my stomach sunk when I read them. This thread is for attacks on Christianity, I'm the one defending and answering, not you. Make your own thread if you want to give out short and erroneous hollow bull crud answers to some very good questions. Please learn about Christianity before you try to preach it.

Sheesh who died and made you God? And I'd suggest you relearn about christianity before you try and preach it answers. Take your own advice. You were wrong about there only being 4 types of Christians. There is a 5th type. The 5th type of Christian is one who thinks he is better than all others and therefore erroneously thinks himself superior to others. This 5th type of Christian gives himself the right to judge others, even though the bible and God has said that thou shall not judge others and the book and God have said that the only one to judge will be God himself. Now this 5th type of Christian has taken it upon himself to assume that he knows better than all and therefore is in a place to judge those who's beliefs differ from his own. This 5th type is not a Christian but a Christian wannabe. Answers, guess which one you really are?


:eek:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bells
[B]OOOOOKKKK...

You say you've been a Christian for ONLY 14 years yet you claim to be such a wise and knowable member?

Pray tell, how do you test your faith? Do you sit there and compare their belief to yours? How do you know you are correct when you deem these other beliefs to be 'wrong'? Don't you think you're being judgemental in stating that all these other beliefs are wrong? Isn't God the one meant to judge and not the individual person?

You've even gone so far as stating that you're a better Christian then your school chaplain? Scarily interesting. So in the 14 years you see yourself as better than a priest in understanding the religion?

You are rare because you are what catholic priests refer to as a church rat. Do you run eagerly to the priest to shake his hand after mass and praise him on how he's interpreted the bible just so, or do you critique him on how his sermon did not have enough zeal or praise god enough?

So your actions is to judge others by YOUR standards and interpretation of what is in the bible or what YOU think God said? Who gave you the right to judge?

I think I'm watching a self righteous someone do that right now... but then I guess I'm not a Christian.. I'm what Christians fear most. An agnostic:D. You know the people who question things. But then I've been a Christian for 32 years now and I matured and realised that the notion of the all saving and all conquering God and the notion that no matter what I do I shall be saved because I'm a Christian, was a fallacy... and I came to this realisation when I was around 3 or 4. But I was one of those children who always asked why... So that means that by your standards, I'm not a good christian... wooohoooooo!! Because I know that if I were to become a christian like you, even my mother (who is a strict follower of the church) would shoot me. She detests Christians who deem themselves worthy to to judge the beliefs of others to be wrong and unchristian like. But then hey, she's only been a strict Christian for more than 65 years or so now, what could she possibly know.

I think answers has done all the attacking him/herself.

Nooooo I'm being forced to agree with Vienna on something again. I'm scared... hold me...

Sheesh who died and made you God? And I'd suggest you relearn about christianity before you try and preach it answers. Take your own advice. You were wrong about there only being 4 types of Christians. There is a 5th type. The 5th type of Christian is one who thinks he is better than all others and therefore erroneously thinks himself superior to others. This 5th type of Christian gives himself the right to judge others, even though the bible and God has said that thou shall not judge others and the book and God have said that the only one to judge will be God himself. Now this 5th type of Christian has taken it upon himself to assume that he knows better than all and therefore is in a place to judge those who's beliefs differ from his own. This 5th type is not a Christian but a Christian wannabe. Answers, guess which one you really are? :eek:

O.K., Every culture has a mythology about their place in the world and it's creation. Yet so many of them are radically different and contradictory. Isn't creating a religion just an artifact of culture? -An attempt to explain things before the tool of science was developed?

Hey Answers...

You say that there are "Sooooo many" factual pieces of evidence regarding God's existance, yet you didn't list a single one. So please, do us all a favor, and list one fact. One single, solitary fact concerning the existance of God.

Factual. Evidence. Please.

JD

answers,

Here are the scripture references below:

Isa. 13:16
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Gen. 7:23 (the flood)
Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

2 Kings 2:24 (Elisha cursing the children)
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

2 Sam 6:6,7
And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth [his hand] to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook [it].
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for [his] error; and there he died by the ark of God.

If Noah and friends were the only ones left after the flood, then people all over the world would not share genetic markers showing an african origin. Then the story of Noah is either false or an allegory, in which case Christianity is false. Discuss.

spidergoat, please elaborate. The comment is a bit confusing. If Adam and eve were the first two and then after the flood there were a handful, what would be the difference? You still have a small group populating or repopulating the earth right?

One thing that always gets me, and I am a christian, is the fact that we as humans are self-preserving selfish people. Christians and nons alike. Like, if you give $5 to the homeless or you don't, it seems selfish either way. Let me explain... Motive. If giving the $5 to him will make me feel better about myself, then my giving equals selfishness. If I don't give to him because I want to hoard my money, then that is selfish. Can we really as humans ever make a neutral decision.

We are self preserving because, well that is the nature, if you need me to explain or give example then I will.


Here is another question. A selfish one.

Why do you think God would create a universe so huge and put us in it, but we will live and die and not ever see most everything in it. Would it make more sense just to have our galaxy with the sun and everything rather than a near infinite universe? I often wonder why the universe is so big. I would hope that another race does exist out there to enjoy other parts of the universe that we don't.
I guess it is like having a huge house right, and you only use 1 room in a huge mansion. Lets say you have a museum of great stuff in your house, but you are unable to go in any other rooms. Maybe you get a glimpse here and there of what may be in them, but not get to walk in them and enjoy and use the rooms. Well if this were the case, I would hope that somebody would get to use them since I can't. Make sense?

I don't know if you are catholic...but what is with the whole incense thing? That stuff smells like ass!

I am not catholic, but I really like the paintings and stainglass and stuff that the old cathedrals have in them.

Yeah, the incense is weird and smells. I am not sure why they use incense. Maybe it is supposed to smell like burning carcass.

And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat

If then the region around Ararat was where people came from, why does genetic information show that the most original people are actually the bushmen of Africa?

I realize, if you accept the validity of science and genetics, then there is alot of proof that bible stories are false. Obviously, Noah did not have access to polar bears, or keep alive all the millions of species of the Amazon in his arc.

Well, it depends if you believe that the ark had to have one of every kind of animal or not. Like did it have to have a shitzu and a bulldog or just 2 doglike things... Microevolution I think it is.

I don't know a whole lot about genetics and the research done in that area.

Originally posted by Quigly
Well, it depends if you believe that the ark had to have one of every kind of animal or not. Like did it have to have a shitzu and a bulldog or just 2 doglike things... Microevolution I think it is.

I don't know a whole lot about genetics and the research done in that area. You have the idea wrong. Difference kinds of dogs are still dogs, just one specie. Spidergoat is talking about different species, and that's over millions already. After you can pack every species into the Ark, don't forget to put in one month of foods, too.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by daktaklakpak
[B]You have the idea wrong. Difference kinds of dogs are still dogs, just one specie. Spidergoat is talking about different species, and that's over millions already. After you can pack every species into the Ark, don't forget to put in one month of foods, too.
----------
M*W: If the vast species were DNA in microtubules, they'd all fit. If the polar bear, black bear and grizzly bear end up on different areas of the planet, they would have adapted to their climate and environment, but they're still a bear.

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
If the vast species were DNA in microtubules, they'd all fit. If the polar bear, black bear and grizzly bear end up on different areas of the planet, they would have adapted to their climate and environment, but they're still a bear. If DNA labs and cloning facilities were inside the Ark, I rest my case.

What a jerk "Answers" is.

He says "Come and attack Christian belief please."

Then he does a Houdini trick and disappears.

Where has the little fakir gone? :D

I think it is a fallacy to think christian beliefs are even based on facts, they are based on faith. If the story of creation and Noah, etc. are taken as allegory, or as an echo of something that really did happen, I can see the value of it. It does not put down christianity in the least that the literal meaning of parables can be disproven. At the very least, they form a metaphorical language that all people knowing these stories can relate too. Jesus said many things that people thought was sacreligious and contradictory to the old testament. There might one day be a new, new testament, so keep an open mind.

Originally posted by Vienna
What a jerk "Answers" is.

He says "Come and attack Christian belief please."

Then he does a Houdini trick and disappears.

Where has the little fakir gone? :D

Give him a chance - according to the timestamp displayed on my screen, he last posted 11-25-03 at 10:32 PM - less than 24 hours ago. It's entirely possible that he may actually have a life outside of this place. :)

Originally posted by Nehushta
Give him a chance - according to the timestamp displayed on my screen, he last posted 11-25-03 at 10:32 PM - less than 24 hours ago. It's entirely possible that he may actually have a life outside of this place. :)
Point taken.

Or maybe he's trying to get one. :D

Or he's out listening to mass on cd:rolleyes:



:eek:

Maybe he just really wants to see the Christian belief attacked :) God knows it's vulnerable enough...er, so to speak.

Vienna, to answer your question I think Bells sat him down on a pupil and tought him a lesson here with this:Quote Bells

( I think I'm watching a self righteous someone do that right now... but then I guess I'm not a Christian.. I'm what Christians fear most. An agnostic. You know the people who question things. But then I've been a Christian for 32 years now and I matured and realised that the notion of the all saving and all conquering God and the notion that no matter what I do I shall be saved because I'm a Christian, was a fallacy... and I came to this realisation when I was around 3 or 4. But I was one of those children who always asked why... So that means that by your standards, I'm not a good christian... wooohoooooo!! Because I know that if I were to become a christian like you, even my mother (who is a strict follower of the church) would shoot me. She detests Christians who deem themselves worthy to to judge the beliefs of others to be wrong and unchristian like. But then hey, she's only been a strict Christian for more than 65 years or so now, what could she possibly know.)

Ya!! this one is got him listening to those CD's driving around in a car, or listening audiously to find himself again. LOL.

Anyhow;

Answers, has answered nothing, only the same rhetorical apolegetic answers we've heard over and over from self proclaimed rightous Christians. I wonder if those fourteen years is actually his age?. It seems to be with the smart ass attitudes he has shown here. Teens think they know it all!!

So here are my rebutals against Christianity;

1: If there was Addam and Eve, and then had two sons Cain & Able, Cain kills Able, Cain gets in trouble, (BTW, Why would an all knowing omnipotent god ask Cain were his brother was?. wouldn't he know that Cain has killed him?) gets thrown out of Eden yet finds a wife?. By my understanding there's only 3 people left in the world after Cain killed Abble right?.

2: If God created man from his own image and man is not perfect, wouldn't this make god inperfect?

3: If God is the Alpha & Omega, what created it?

4: If man has "free will" and man does. This is contradiction of God's omnipotence. http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/goddeniesfreewill.html


Godless

Originally posted by Godless
Vienna, to answer your question I think Bells sat him down on a pupil and tought him a lesson here with this:Quote Bells

( I think I'm watching a self righteous someone do that right now... but then I guess I'm not a Christian.. I'm what Christians fear most. An agnostic. You know the people who question things. But then I've been a Christian for 32 years now and I matured and realised that the notion of the all saving and all conquering God and the notion that no matter what I do I shall be saved because I'm a Christian, was a fallacy... and I came to this realisation when I was around 3 or 4. But I was one of those children who always asked why... So that means that by your standards, I'm not a good christian... wooohoooooo!! Because I know that if I were to become a christian like you, even my mother (who is a strict follower of the church) would shoot me. She detests Christians who deem themselves worthy to to judge the beliefs of others to be wrong and unchristian like. But then hey, she's only been a strict Christian for more than 65 years or so now, what could she possibly know.)
Godless

Ya!! this one is got him listening to those CD's driving around in a car, or listening audiously to find himself again. LOL.

I'm not quite sure that Bells reply was altogether the reason why the upstart disappeared. If you look at "Answers" previous posts he has done the same before ie, started a Christian challenge thread and left it unfinished. He describes himself as a 16 year old who can answer any questrions - ha! crap.


So here are my rebutals against Christianity;

1: If there was Addam and Eve, and then had two sons Cain & Able, Cain kills Able, Cain gets in trouble, (BTW, Why would an all knowing omnipotent god ask Cain were his brother was?. wouldn't he know that Cain has killed him?) gets thrown out of Eden yet finds a wife?. By my understanding there's only 3 people left in the world after Cain killed Abble right?.

2: If God created man from his own image and man is not perfect, wouldn't this make god inperfect?

3: If God is the Alpha & Omega, what created it?

4: If man has "free will" and man does. This is contradiction of God's omnipotence.
I don't know the answers and right now I couldn't care less, good questions though.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/goddeniesfreewill.html
Godless
Now, why bother with links to opinions on Christianity. They only lead to more opinions on Christianity, and whether the opinions are positive or negative - thats all they are.

:)

It talked how omnipotence contradicts "FREE WILL"

Originally posted by Godless
It talked how omnipotence contradicts "FREE WILL"
It contradicts the subject very well. But I would like to know whereabouts in the Bible does it mention freewill existing with an omniscient god?

I believe it can't be found, so where does the idea come from in the first place?

ok, I'm not a christian, but I'll defend it for them, they must be off praying or something.

1: If there was Addam and Eve, and then had two sons Cain & Able, Cain kills Able, Cain gets in trouble, (BTW, Why would an all knowing omnipotent god ask Cain were his brother was?. wouldn't he know that Cain has killed him?) gets thrown out of Eden yet finds a wife?. By my understanding there's only 3 people left in the world after Cain killed Abble right?.

Well, as you may not know Cain took an albino baboon as a wife, that's where really hairy people come from. (p.s. god knew where Abel was, he just wanted to trap Cain in a lie, like Judge Judy)


2: If God created man from his own image and man is not perfect, wouldn't this make god inperfect?

Not really, there is something about imperfection that strengthens us. We are in the image, but not exact replicas. We are on the way to perfection, and it is the road we take that is most important.

3: If God is the Alpha & Omega, what created it?

A trans-dimentional vortex, like a whirlpool, outside of time and space.


4: If man has "free will" and man does. This is contradiction of God's omnipotence.

God can control our will, but chooses not to. Controlling our will is like cheating at cards, it can give you a certain outcome, but you won't find out who the best players are.


Hey, that wasn't so hard, it's kind of fun to be christian!

Originally posted by Godless
I wonder if those fourteen years is actually his age?.

IQ maybe?






:eek:

Hmmmm...maybe he's not coming back after all. Damn - he never got to my comments! :(

Well, hell, you sure know your stuff man!!

LOL,

Bells, you'r giving too much credit!!

Nehusta;
His CD on the scriptures is skipping, give him some time, it is too soon to tell. The stereo, may fix the problem. Or his nose is buried in the bible and he can't dig himself out!!.

Godless.

Originally posted by Godless
Well, hell, you sure know your stuff man!!

LOL,

Bells, you'r giving too much credit!!

Nehusta;
His CD on the scriptures is skipping, give him some time, it is too soon to tell. The stereo, may fix the problem. Or his nose is buried in the bible and he can't dig himself out!!.

Godless.

LOL!!!

Did someone say he was 16 or something? Maybe his mummy wont let him use the computer until he finishes his homework or cleans his room. Or he's still reading his bible and looking at all the purdy pictures... kiddy bibles have a tendency to have pictures...




:eek:

Originally posted by answers
I'm sure you all get sick of us Christians attacking your beliefs (who wouldn't) so I'm inviting you all to attack Christian belief. Please choose only one argument/reason each, regarding why Christian belief is wrong [/B]
your religion teaches LIES,
starting with flat earth and the Sun revolving around earth,(remember Galileo?)
man being created from dust,etc,
I wont qoute all the nonsense and contradictions your bable book preaches,theres not enough time and room here.
do some reading and more important THINKING
at
www.atheists.org
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/
www.infidels.org/index.shtml
and maybe you will actualy wake up and EVOLVE and realize how stupid your religion (and all others ) are.

btw I have no beliefs,so theres not much you can attack:p

Originally posted by Pakman
3. Why are women considered spirtually and physically inferior? Well, I know the answer to that, but I would like your opinion on it?

I have a question for you, Pakman - why are women considered inferior according to Islam? More specifically, why is a rape victim considered a "criminal" worthy of being stoned to death when a rape occurs (unless, of course, there happened to be present four male Muslims of upright character who witnessed the rape and are willing to testify against the rapist)?

For your reference, here is a story of a woman in Pakistan who was raped by her brother-in-law, and is imprisoned on death-row for "her" crime: In Pakistan, Rape Victims Are the 'Criminals' (http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html). This is disgusting beyond belief.

I will create a separate thread to discuss this, so as not to sidetrack this discussion.

Sweet now things are heating up a bit. I expected a lot more cursing etc... from you people, I've gotta say you've let me down a bit. lol.

Nah it's all sweet, you can attack me like you've been doing, and attack Christianity at the same time, I really don't mind that much.

But it'll be helpful if I give you some background info on myself before we keep going. - Oh by the way I haven't been on this forum for about 2 days or so because I needed a break, staying up to 2am in the morning every night isn't too good - But anyway, my background.

I'm from about 5 different church backgrounds :p My family moved around a lot, so we've changed churches a lot. Right now I'm at a Baptist church. But my denomination is pretty much the Bible. If it's in there, then that's where I get my beliefs. I'm not self-righteous. I have criticized the chaplain, Christians, Christians attitudes, etc... plus vienna and all that. But I haven't judged them, nor have I put myself above them. You see, what I do, is what the Bible tells me to do, let God be the judge, let God criticize. Now the book God wrote all his judgments and criticisms in, is the Bible. I have not once in this post, done anything but simply inform people of what the Bible says about certain things. I write that vienna should stop answering questions because her answers are wrong. Why did I write this, it's because the Bible criticized people just like vienna. Jesus said that it is better for a person to never be born, then to lead another down the wrong path. Was it me saying this, or was it me just passing on a message. It was me just passing on a message. You're attacking Christianity, why would I defend by using my own thoughts? I defend by using Christianity, the very thing that you are fighting with. I don't get how you not only say that I'm self righteous but also judgmental, for giving you exactly what you asked for, a fight with Christianity? Did you think Christianity when attacked, wouldn’t fight back? I know you’re too smart to think that Christianity is a toothless lion, considering the fact that it was started by one man, and has now converted millions, and has lasted for 2003 years.

But right now, lets get something straight; I'm no better then anyone else. Luckily enough I'm not judging others, God is, and He is judging them by His standards, that's why they're so high. If I were defending Christianity, using my own righteousness, then I would fail completely.

One of the things I hate most, are self-righteous people. So to prove to you that I'm not one of these, I'll be very honest with you all and tell you some of my less then righteous moments. By the way I'm not just honest to people on the internet who I'm never going to see in real life, I tell people around me the same things, for the same reason I'm telling you all, to show you that I'm nothing special.

Okay here are my stuff ups: Last weekend I drank 3/4 of a bottle of spirits, and it was so much that I passed out three times in my friends front garden bed (graduation celebrations). When I'm around certain people I swear heaps, and heaps. I put more effort into my car then I do into learning about God. For every good thing I do, I do 5 times more bad things. How's this, the other weekend, to pay back my friend's brother for buying me alcohol, I drove him around to dealers houses so that he could get some pot. Hmmm...what other crap things have I done? There's just too many to list. Now this is me at my worst of worst times, I also do good things. Such as raise $180 for cancer research, help out volunteering at the Christian bookshop, dedicate my time to answering your questions, spend time helping my friends quite drugs, and drug dealing, sponsor a child in poverty. I’m not really an alcoholic, I’ve only gotten drunk twice, but even though I do good things as well, I'm still not a great person, really not the type of person you can get self righteous with. I'm 17 years old, I've just graduated from high school, and I've got a heart for non-Christians. Put it this way, if you were a Christian, and you believed people were going to hell, would you wait until you were older and more Christ like before you tried to help people get saved? Or would a person’s very soul be more important to you, then your own little reasons. If you really cared for people who were not saved, would you let something like age, or imperfection, really get in your way? Honestly think about where I'm coming from, before you yourself judge and hate me, that's all I ask.

By the way, be patient with the answers. I'm going to answer every single attack, and question. I'll probably spend one whole day doing it this week.

And also don't try to use the Bible to attack me with and then gloat over it. Like someone said, God's the only judge, therefore you shouldn't get up vienna. Then you think, I've used his own religious text against him, and I won, man I'm just so good, what an idiot Christian this guy is. - This just simply doesn't work. Sure attack using scripture, but wait for my reply before you start gloating over beating me with my own sword. Because I haven't found a single hard question yet, so don't get too carried away. Now I'm not saying that I'm super religious and I know everything. Anything good that I know, I know because God told me. Anything good that I do, I do because God used me. Anything good I say, I say because God spoke through me. Basically the glory goes to God, I'm just a servant, God's the one with the wisdom, with the mercy, grace, and goodness. So never give me credit, if you want to thank someone, thank God. However occasionally I stuff things up and don't serve properly. If this is the case, then don't hold a grudge against God, God is perfect, but unfortunately his servants aren't, and looking at my description of myself, I’m sure you’ll agree with me (and I’m sure you’ll mercilessly give me heaps about it, but what can ya do? But I do just ask for the same courtesy and manners that you demand of me, while condescending to me in the same breath, then making sarcastic comments, etc.) I know it’s almost impossible to be what you want others to be, but I do ask that you at least have the desire to practice what you preach. That’s all Jesus asks from me, that I try and desire to be perfect like Him, so all I’ll ask from you is to desire to be like the person you think I should be.

Anyway, that'll at least give you more to give me heaps about. lol

CyA's

WHAT VIENNA WAS WRONG ABOUT:

1: quote “no - sin was created by a fallen angel,”
This is wrong because sin wasn’t created by a fallen angle, sin is only a choice. You can either do what God says (not sinning), or don’t do what God says (sinning). Sin means to miss the mark, it is missing the mark that God has set for us, and told us not to miss. This mark is His words, His law. The first law He made was don’t eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We broke that humans broke that law and suffer the punishment for breaking the law. Since then God has written many laws in the Bible for us to follow. There are ten main commandments, and then many other laws. We have all failed to keep the commandments, thus we are punished for it. Sin was not created by a fallen angel, Satan simply encouraged Adam and Eve to choose to do what God told them not to do.

2: A person asked me the following question: Why are women considered spiritually and physically inferior? Well, I know the answer to that, but I would like your opinion on it?

Vienna decided to answer this question himself: quote “In my opinion this was mankind at work altering the Bible to a means, I believe in sexual equality regardless what is written in the Bible.”
Firstly Vienna if you have beliefs, regardless of what is written in the Bible, then you are picking and choosing which pieces of the Bible you’ll listen to, and which ones you’ll ignore. So you might agree that you shouldn’t steal, but disagree with the Bible, ignore what it says, and have the belief that adultery isn’t bad.
Jesus condemned people like you who abandon what the Bible teaches to follow their own teachings.
QUOTE:

Matthew 15:3
Jesus answered:
Why do you disobey God and follow your own teaching? 4 Didn’t God command you to respect your father and mother? Didn’t he tell you to put to death all who curse their parents? 5 But you let people get by without helping their parents when they should. You let them say that what they have has been offered to God. 6 Is this any way to show respect to your parents? You ignore God’s commands in order to follow your own teaching. 7 And you are nothing but show-offs! Isaiah the prophet was right when he wrote that God had said,
8 “All of you praise me
with your words,
but you never really
think about me.
9 It is useless for you
to worship me,
when you teach rules
made up by humans.”

---The Contemporary English [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995 by the American Bible Society.---

3: Question asked to Vienna: “Thank you Vienna. I like to ask another question.
So do you acknowledge that the Bible was changed?”

Vienna’s answer: “It is only my opinion, but yes I do believe the book has been changed by mankind along it's journey to the present day, especially about sexual inequalities. There are too many discrepancies in the Bible too, not forgetting that the Bible is not just one book but many books written by many people, Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Bible is untrue because the truth is there to be found.

Please don't claim that the books of Qur'an are infallible too, for although the truth for yourself is in Qur'an, it is without doubt words will have been changed and manipulated in that too.

I don't mean intend to offend you, but this is what I firmly believe.”

WHY SHE WAS WRONG: Vienna believes that the Bible has been changed. Vienna believes that there are many discrepancies in the Bible too. Yet these are anti-Christian beliefs. To believe that the Bible has been changed, is to believe that the very foundation of Christianity is badly constructed.

I will now back up my statements by using a small part of the argument, which was used by Josh McDowell.

Here is why I say the Bible has not been changed:

BIBLE IS HISTORICALLY RELIABLE:

I’m going to use the argument based on the bibliographical test, to prove that the Bible has not been changed by man. I’m using Josh McDowell’s apologetic book, The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict.

Text taken from pages 33 to 35:

The bibliographical test is an examination of the textual transmission by which documents reach us. In other words, since we do not have the original documents, how reliable are the copies we have in regard to the number of manuscripts (MSS) and the time interval between the original and extant copies? (Monotgomery, HC, 26)

The Number of Manuscripts and Their Closeness to the Original:

F. E. Peters states that “on the basis of manuscript tradition alone, the works that made up the Christians’ New Testament were the most frequently copied and widely circulated books of antiquity.” (Peters, HH, 50) As a result, the fidelity of the New Testament text rests on a multitude of manuscript evidence. Counting Greek copies alone, the New Testament is preserved in some 5,656 partial and complete manuscript portions that were copied by hand from the second through the fifteenth centuries. (Geisler, GIB, 385)
There are now more than 5,686 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Add over 10,000 Latin Vulgate and at least 9,300 other early versions (MSS), and we have close to, if not more than, 25,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today. No other document of antiquity even begins to approach such numbers and attestation. In comparison, Homer’s Iliad is second, with only 643 manuscripts that still survive. The first complete preserved text of Homer dates from the thirteenth century. (Leach, OB, 145)
The importance of the sheer number of manuscript copies cannot be overstated. As with other documents of ancient literature, there are no known extant original manuscripts of the Bible. Fortunately, however, the abundance of manuscript copies makes it possible to reconstruct the original with virtually complete accuracy. (Geisler, GIB, 386)
John Warwick Montgomery says that “to be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament.” (Montgomery, HC, 29)
Sir Frederic G. Kenyon, who was the director and principal librarian of the British Museum and second to none in authority for issuing statements about MSS, states that
“besides number, the manuscripts of the New Testament differ from those of the classical authors…In no other case is the interval of time between the composition of the book and the date of the earliest extant manuscripts so short as in that of the New Testament. The books of the New Testament were written in the latter part of the first century; the earliest are of the fourth century – say from 250 to 300 years later. This may sound a considerable interval, but it is nothing to that which parts most of the great classical authors from their earliest manuscripts. We believe that we have in all essentials an accurate text of the seven extant plays of Sophocles: yet the earliest substantial manuscript upon which it is based was written more than 1400 years after the poet’s death. (Kenyon, HTCNT, 4)
Kenyon continues in ‘The Bible and Archaeology’: “The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.” (Kenyon, BA, 288)
Dockery, Mathews, and Sloan have recently written, “For most of the biblical text a single reading has been transmitted. Elimination of scribal errors and intentional changes leaves only a small percentage of the text about which any questions occur.” (Dockery, FBI, 176) They conclude:
It must be said that the amount of time between the original composition and the next surviving manuscript is far less for the New Testament than for any other work in Greek literature…Although there are certainly differences in many of the New Testament manuscripts, not one fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading. (Dockery, FBI, 182)
F. J. A. Hort rightfully adds that “in the variety and fullness of the evidence on which it rests the text of the New Testament stands absolutely and unapproachably alone among ancient prose writings.” (Hort, NTOG, 561)

Now to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts, with those of other ancient books: (the setting out is, author – book - no. of copies)

Homer - Iliad – 646 manuscript copies. Herodotus – History – 8 manuscript copies. Thucydides – History – 8 manuscript copies. Plato - 7 manuscript copies. Demosthenes - 200 manuscript copies. Caesar – Gallic Wars – 10 manuscript copies. Livy – History of Rome – 1 partial and 19 manuscript copies. Tacitus – Annals – 20 manuscript copies. Pliny Secundus – Natural History – 7 manuscript copies. New Testament – 5366 manuscript copies.
Now to say that the Bible is not reliable because man has copied it down over centuries, and ‘must’ have changed it, is to say that every other piece of historical information is even more so unreliable and false for the same reason.
Vienna wrote: “There are too many discrepancies in the Bible too” Please write down the specific discrepancies you are referring to and I will answer them. However if you don’t specify them, I will just write another explanation like the one I did above, which will take me much longer then if you could be more specific in your attack on Christianity. Thanks.

4: One raven wrote to Vienna: “If you say that the Bible has been altered with by mankind, and you believe what you believe regardless of what the Bible says, how do you know what was and what was not tampered with?”

-Note one raven’s question/statement is spot on. You can’t pick and choose, you’ve either got to believe it all, or disbelieve it all.-

Okay now vienna’s reply was: “I don't know exactly, but anything which contradicts itself is suspect for sure.

Put it another way, when has mans view of things ever been perfect, when has anything that man has written been pure truth.

If God had written the Bible or Qur'an it would never need to be translated, it would never be in a certain "tongue". I believe it would be available to be read by anyone in the world without the need for translation, or the need for theologians.”
WHY VIENNA WAS WRONG: Firstly the Bible doesn’t contradict itself. Give me what you think is a contradiction and I’ll show you that it isn’t.

“when has mans view of things ever been perfect” – Luckily enough the Bible isn’t man’s view of things, it’s God’s.

You say the bible is false because it needs translating. Now why does it need translating? Is it because God is limited in power, and can’t create a book that everyone can understand without needing translation, or is it because we ourselves are limited? It is our limitation of not having a universal language that makes God unable to communicate to us in a universal language. You are right to say that in a perfect world we would all have the same language and be able to understand just one Bible. This is because God made us originally perfect, and with only one language. It wasn’t until people started to make the huge tower of Babel, which created within them pride and sin, that God changed our languages so that the people could no longer combine and make something which took Glory away from God. You say that the Bible isn’t perfect, but you use the reason that was caused by our own imperfection. Who is really to blame, the Bible or humans?

ANSWERS TO VIENNA’S RESPONSES TO MY CRITICISMS:

1: I said: However you need to understand that people suck. And Christians are people, they are saved people, but they are still people. I for one can say that I suck probably worse then most atheists.


VIENNA RESPONDED: Isn't that how I sounded to you, and you judged me for it, note the word "Judged"!

Okay Vienna, Christianity was created because people are failures. Now Jesus died on the cross so that we don’t have to pay for our failure. Christians accept Jesus as their savior, acknowledging that we are failures. YET Christians then strive to be like Jesus. God commands us to at least have the desire to be like Jesus, to be perfect. However when I tell you where you are going wrong, where you are not perfect, you respond with astonished indignation. You sound as if you haven’t yet truly realized that you are not perfect. Either that or you haven’t yet realized that God commands you to strive for perfection. If you had realized both of these things, then you would take criticism from the Bible, and correct your actions, if only to show your gratitude to Christ for dying for your sins. Christ asks you to be like Him, yet you think it is alright not to even take another Christian’s criticisms, which are from the Bible, and change yourself so that you are more like Christ. All I did was pass on the message of the Bible, I never “Judged”! you. I had my youth pastor tell me to stop going into so much depth when teaching younger people, because they aren’t as interested as older people, and I don’t have to complicate things for them. He was criticizing the way I tell people about God. How did I respond to him, I agreed with him and said thank you for the criticism. Not only that but now a try to simplify my teachings. One time I was talking to my friends while my pastor was talking to the youth, and he turned around and told me to shut up. I didn’t say anything back; I thought damn what a mean ‘you know what’, at the time I thought this. Yet now when I look back, I see that he was right to get up me. He was spreading the good news, and I was talking and disrupting it, taking away glory from God. I would never criticize or rebuke you, if I didn’t see any Biblical and Godly reason for it. Just like I expect any other Christian on this forum to rebuke me, if I say anything that takes away Glory from God. Don’t you get it Vienna? If you truly believe in, and love God, then you won’t care about your pride, you’ll only care about pleasing God!

2: I said: Although I fail every single day. But all Jesus asks you to do is to try your best, even if it is mostly failure. He really has made it easy to be saved, there's no doubt of that.


Vienna responded: I fail often, but does that make me any less of a Christian than you.
According to you it would appear so.

MY ANSWER: sorry Vienna I should have been clearer on this. It seems to me that you are ‘just’ a Christian. Let’s look at it. You don’t believe that everything in the Bible is true. You think the Bible has been changed; you don’t put any confidence in the word of God. I just seriously don’t understand how you could doubt so much, and then have absolute faith in the fact that Jesus died for you, and that God exists.

I never said you are less a Christian then me. You just fail in different areas, areas I criticized and which you should now try to fix up. I fail in many areas as well, areas that I expect you to criticize, with righteous anger if they have taken glory away from God, and then I will try to fix up those areas as well.

My main problem, as I just mentioned above, is that I simply don’t understand how you could have faith in one page of the Bible where it says Jesus died for you, and yet doubt the rest of the 1000 or so pages of the Bible. I don’t know, I really can’t relate to this, I just simply don’t understand???

3: I wrote: It's called righteous anger, it’s the only type of anger, which a Christian is allowed (and commanded) to have.


Vienna responded: And there I was thinking Christianity was all about love and peace. Who commanded and gave Christians the right to be angry, and why be angry at anyone for their choice, didn't God give mankind freewill?

My answer: Who commanded and gave Christians the right to be angry? This question is easy to answer, God did, and if it’s alright by Him why are you so upset?

Ephesians 4:25 – 26

25Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26“Be angry, and do not sin (The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.)

I spoke truth with you, and because my anger was righteous anger, I was angry and did not sin.

Now in the same chapter it says this:

32And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.

Now I was angry with you, and rebuked you, do you think I still hold a grudge against you now? No! Anger is an emotion, and emotion subsides over time. In fact verse 26 continues and says: “do not let the sun go down on your wrath”. God realizes that we have emotion, but He says forgive before the sun goes down. Emotion strikes us because we aren’t robots. God says righteous anger is an acceptable emotion. Yet don’t have it for more then a day, because we should forgive and love one another.

Now in reference to your comment that basically said that God gave us freewill therefore our choices shouldn’t be punished (your exact words “…why be angry at anyone for their choice, didn't God give mankind freewill”). I just simply don’t understand the logic behind this. It is so flawed. – God gave us freewill so that we could either choose to do what He says to do, or choose to do what He says not to do. God didn’t make us into choice less puppets, what’s the point of that; it is worthless and meaningless obedience when you don’t have a choice. Now I’ve just got to ask you: why did Jesus die on the cross for us? It was because we made and still make the wrong choices all the time and God, because He is just and demands justice, says that we are to be punished for our evil (not doing what God says). I don’t see how you could accept Jesus’ sacrifice and be a Christian; yet not understand even why He made the sacrifice in the first place? Because if you don’t understand that God demands payment for your debt of sin, that God demands punishment for wrongdoings, then you simply don’t understand the very foundation of Christianity.

4. I wrote: If you can sit back and watch someone spit in the face of someone you love, then I doubt you love that person. Similarly if you can sit back and watch someone say false things about God, taking away His glory, while that pe