http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1545516/Honey-bees-in-US-facing-extinction.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_Collapse_Disorder

climate change ?
over specialisation ?
Crope GE gone too far ?

given the massive loss of pollination in the usa with the continuing colony collapse food prices are set to continue to rise with the cost and availability of pollination going up and up and up.

is there any real government money being invested in finding a solution ?
can the US government afford to not invest millions on this to resolve it (assuming it can be resolved) in time to not just add weight to the sky rocketing food prices.

your thoughts ?
any news of scientific break throughs ?
rumours... ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1545516/Honey-bees-in-US-facing-extinction.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_Collapse_Disorder

climate change ?
over specialisation ?
Crope GE gone too far ?

given the massive loss of pollination in the usa with the continuing colony collapse food prices are set to continue to rise with the cost and availability of pollination going up and up and up.

is there any real government money being invested in finding a solution ?
can the US government afford to not invest millions on this to resolve it (assuming it can be resolved) in time to not just add weight to the sky rocketing food prices.

your thoughts ?
any news of scientific break throughs ?
rumours... ?


Yes. They are seriously working on it. The latest thing I've read is that some entomologists in Israel have isolated a particular virus that they think may be the cause. That was some time back - it hasn't been in the news lately but the problem HAS drawn some serious attention, time and money.

Have they found out where all the worker bees are going?

I guess it would be kinda difficult to put little radio transmitters on them all

Have they found out where all the worker bees are going?

I guess it would be kinda difficult to put little radio transmitters on them all

Do you mean what kind of plants they've been visiting?

No real need because it's happening all over the place and not, for example, restricted to areas where GM crops are now being grown or where some new plant might have been introduced. The problem is equally bad in remote mountainous areas - like the Appalachian - as it is in California or Florida. It's occuring in other countries as well.

I'm guessing ethanol and biofuels are causing this.

I'm guessing ethanol and biofuels are causing this.

Yes, I'd sure call that a guess - and a very bad one at that!

Yes, I'd sure call that a guess - and a very bad one at that!
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN26273329

NEW YORK, Sept 26 (Reuters) - Primate scientist Jane Goodall said on Wednesday the race to grow crops for vehicle fuels is damaging rain forests in Asia, Africa and South America

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN26273329

Just what is it with you???????????????????? You are forever linking to things that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the topic under discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bugeye: :shrug:

Either you have a mental problem or the worst reading comprehension of anyone I've ever seen. It really doesn't matter which - just stay out of threads where you know nothing about the subject being discussed. (Not only will that cut down on the garbage, it would make you look less like a fool.)

NEW YORK, Sept 26 (Reuters) - Primate scientist Jane Goodall said on Wednesday the race to grow crops for vehicle fuels is damaging rain forests in Asia, Africa and South America

Oh, well, that settles that then.

I'm just saying bees are probably dying from ethanol and biofuel.

I'm just saying bees are probably dying from ethanol and biofuel.

"Probably"????? Just what kind of non-thinker are you? How could there possibly be any connection?

It won't be very long before everyone considers you a fruitcake with scrambled eggs for brains (I already do)!

"Probably"????? Just what kind of non-thinker are you? How could there possibly be any connection?

It won't be very long before everyone considers you a fruitcake with scrambled eggs for brains (I already do)!
It's as good as any other hypothesis I've seen lol.

It's as good as any other hypothesis I've seen lol.

That takes us directly back to what I said about your extremely poor reading comprehension.

And that takes us directly to something else. You CLAIM to be a hedge fund operator - if so, you must make TONS of serious mistakes since you cannot read and understand any better than you do!! :eek:

Do you mean what kind of plants they've been visiting?

No real need because it's happening all over the place and not, for example, restricted to areas where GM crops are now being grown or where some new plant might have been introduced. The problem is equally bad in remote mountainous areas - like the Appalachian - as it is in California or Florida. It's occurring in other countries as well.

According to the wiki, the reasons for it are still speculative. I'm assuming they don't have ways of tracking what's going on with all the workers. The main symptom appears to be bees not returning to the hive.
Assuming they were able to collect all the strays (or the corpses), seems like it would have been easier to narrow down the problem. For example -- they could have performed analysis to find the presence of pesticide/fungus/pathogen/mites/etc. Instead, the article simply says the hive is mostly abandoned with insufficient worker bees, unborn brood, and few (if any) dead bees. It's reasonable to hypothesize "the increase of known problems" as likely culprits, but it would be more accurate to directly study the stray workers or the corpses.

CCD is an overblown problem. There are so many things going on contributing to a few beekeepers massive losses (and thats what ccd is doing). Bee collapses go back (google it) for 100 years. Of the few beekeepers I know (small operations) none have seen this ccd occur. Some estimates indicate 5% of beekeepers (all big commercial ops) are the ones feeling this impact. When you look into what these operations do, the thing that is surprising is this hasnt occurred more often.

First, big ops tend to split hives to replace queens. This is genetically doubling up on weak genes. There is also developed resistance to the mite insecticides that have been in use for many years.

Second, your talking massive amounts of bees being trucked around the country and being exposed to many stresses, known and unknown.

Third, if you look into these ops, you find there are real possibilities of neglect weakening the bees. The droughts have had a major impact on the honey industry, not ccd. There have been no significant crop reductions based on decreased pollination. But then, there are many more kinds of pollenators floating around out there than anyone has imagined.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080611135020.htm

Great post milkweed. Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us...=)

read only and milkweed
thanks.
and other contributors.
i watched a program on tv the other day which said that now growers
(the almond growers) were importing bees from other countrys because of the situation.
what occurred to me is that if they have already gone to the step of importing hives from other countrys then maybe the situation is a little more severe than might be readily apparent as there would be loses that may not be accounted for when imported bees are also brought into the figures.

from what they speculated on in the program it gave the impression that they thought initially that maybe crop specialisation might be a cause where it leaves the bees only one source of pollination and thus potentially reducing all the natural defenses that the bees have.

given this possible situation on top of the global food price issue, i wonder how much of the food industry is being propped up by imported hives, thus making imports even more expensive as fuel costs go up.

if indeed the bees are actually abandoning the hives then maybe creating a habitat for wild hives to live might help the situation although it might create a few issues with wild bees creating hives in undesirable locations.

i am not trying to scare monger or any such thing only wondering how this might effect the global situation and what could possibly be done to help combat the issue.

some questions (like above)
-could localised bee colony's bee kept in a localised situation to help keep the bee colonies in a stable environment where instead of soo much movement of the bees, bee keepers develop localised hives and attempt to nurture them with a diverse eco system.
- is it possible to separate the honey gathering aspect from the pollination aspect to help maintain good pollinators ?
obviously this would push up the price of pollination and also honey but if it can be to an established level of sustainability then at least it will create a level pegging and boutique concept of honey.
-are wild bees a viable option for crop pollination ?

i watched a program on tv the other day which said that now growers
(the almond growers) were importing bees from other countrys because of the situation.

All honeybees are imported. They are not native to north america.

what occurred to me is that if they have already gone to the step of importing hives from other countrys then maybe the situation is a little more severe than might be readily apparent as there would be loses that may not be accounted for when imported bees are also brought into the figures.

They import Queen bees. If I remember right, you trigger a hive split by taking out the queen and the worker bees create new queens. The first queen to hatch kills others which have not hatched, simultainous queen hatches cause a death match between the two queens.

As far as almond growers importing new queens, as I understand it, most almond groves hire commercial bee keepers to bring hives to their orchards during flowering to pollinate.

from what they speculated on in the program it gave the impression that they thought initially that maybe crop specialisation might be a cause where it leaves the bees only one source of pollination and thus potentially reducing all the natural defenses that the bees have.

There may be something to this however, I would point out that in nature, a bee finds a high source of pollen/nectar and communicates the location to the hive and the bees congregate on the high food source. I do not know enough about the regional variables, but usually cropland will support multiple food sources. So if there is almond groves, there are probably strawberry fields, lemon trees, apple trees and other food sources the bees are going to in addition to the almonds.

given this possible situation on top of the global food price issue, i wonder how much of the food industry is being propped up by imported hives, thus making imports even more expensive as fuel costs go up.

Depends on the type of food. The grains are mostly wind pollinated and most flowers have some ability to wind pollinate. Some trees provide both male and female flowers for self pollination.

if indeed the bees are actually abandoning the hives then maybe creating a habitat for wild hives to live might help the situation although it might create a few issues with wild bees creating hives in undesirable locations.

Wild (feral) honeybees suffered great losses via the mites. The native bees do not seem to be as sensitive to the mite issue. I have no idea of your location, but if you spend some time wandering around where there are blooms, you may be surprised at the large numbers of natural pollinators. Its not just bees, there are HUGE numbers of flies which pollinate as do butterflies and moths.


some questions (like above)
-could localised bee colony's bee kept in a localised situation to help keep the bee colonies in a stable environment where instead of soo much movement of the bees, bee keepers develop localised hives and attempt to nurture them with a diverse eco system.
- is it possible to separate the honey gathering aspect from the pollination aspect to help maintain good pollinators ?
obviously this would push up the price of pollination and also honey but if it can be to an established level of sustainability then at least it will create a level pegging and boutique concept of honey.
-are wild bees a viable option for crop pollination ?

The only real issue surrounding this is honey production (for some commercial operations). For n. America, most of our native bees are solitary or loosely associated colony type, mostly ground nesting. Nothing I have read so far shows any real crop losses via a lack of pollination, rather its been drought related. Plant pollination occurred in N. America long before white people rowed their boats ashore :)

i believe the bees are exercising their right to die
ja
suicide aka "to hell with this shit"

It appears that almost all bees in question were infected with the Israeli acute paralysis virus (IAPV). Whether this is only a marker or the cause remains to be determined.

I know I have expanded my flower garden to include more bee-attractive flowers. Trying to help out the ones that are left.
is it too little too late? :(

You can't "help" them after they abandon a hive.

To expand a bit on the native bee vs honeybees:

"Dr. Suzanne Batra of the USDA's Bee Research Lab in Beltsville, Maryland, conducted a three-year study to discover the natural mix of bees in a West Virginia forest. (3) She found that, of the 1700 bees trapped in the first year of the study, only 34 were honeybees. This means that pollen bees were performing almost all pollination."

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/nativebee.html

You can't "help" them after they abandon a hive.

I have bumblebees around here. Big fat ones. I hope the flowers help them and keep them around.

milkweed
Re the almond growers association issue.
they said they imported hives and they were flown over to the usa to bring in to pollinate the crop and the price was now close to 20% of costs for just the pollination costs of the bees and had risen from the previous 5%.

you raise another interesting point too with the veroa bee mite issue.
given that it is now a global pandemic it will only take a slight change in the mite to cause massive losses.

as far as they reported and it mentions in the wiki page...
50% of all honey bee hives have disappeared in the usa
which is a MASSIVE loss.
with no real understanding of why and this 50% has been propped up by importing hives into the usa.

we must be talking of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of crops that rely on this pollination, with a potential effect of billions directly effected in food production and then the on flow of related industry of farm and crop servicing.

it seems oddly quiet and somewhat very strange that this issue has not come to light sooner given the world food price crisis issue.

I've heard the African "killer bees" can be domesticated into being just a little nicer. Since they have a strangely higher survival rate, I think its a good choice.

I've heard the African "killer bees" can be domesticated into being just a little nicer. ..."domesticated" is not the right word. They were imported into Brazil and some swarmed into the wild. As they made their way north to America, their genes were mingled with native bees and they became less agressive.

Do you mean what kind of plants they've been visiting?

No real need because it's happening all over the place and not, for example, restricted to areas where GM crops are now being grown or where some new plant might have been introduced. The problem is equally bad in remote mountainous areas - like the Appalachian - as it is in California or Florida. It's occuring in other countries as well.

This does not rule out a GM cause. Viruses can be very good at spreading.

milkweed
Re the almond growers association issue.
they said they imported hives and they were flown over to the usa to bring in to pollinate the crop and the price was now close to 20% of costs for just the pollination costs of the bees and had risen from the previous 5%.


I am unsure where you are getting these numbers from. Cost to rent bees has increased to $150 per hive, but this cost is for multiple factors mostly, increased transportation costs. Typically 2-3 hives per acre, but this is an option. The bloom time is approximately 2 weeks. There is no reason less hives per acre could not be used and when you think about it, this over abundance of hives is probably decreasing the health of the bees in general. Thats just insane numbers of bees in a very small area. Add to this, the fact that last year (2007) was a record almond harvest, during the height of the OMG the bees are dying scare, should make a level head wonder how much of this is over-hyped.

http://www.modbee.com/local/story/226928.html

milkweed
you raise another interesting point too with the veroa bee mite issue.
given that it is now a global pandemic it will only take a slight change in the mite to cause massive losses.

Only when you ignore the natural pollinators that are not connected to managed honeybee populations. The link I posted previously was a study done BEFORE CCD hit and for that study, honeybees represented a miniscule number of the bee population.

Heres another indicating honeybees are virtually useless for cherry tomato pollination. Have you been hearing anything about the collapse of the cherry tomato industry? There is a whole lot more going on out there than just european honeybees:

http://www.xerces.org/Pollinator_Insect_Conservation/Factsheet_Cherry_Tomato_Pollination_by_Native_Bees .PDF


as far as they reported and it mentions in the wiki page...
50% of all honey bee hives have disappeared in the usa
which is a MASSIVE loss.
with no real understanding of why and this 50% has been propped up by importing hives into the usa.

The wiki article does not state 50% of the hives have disappeared.

In a survey of 384 responding beekeepers from 13 states, reporting the number of hives containing few or no bees in spring, only 23.8% met the specified criteria for CCD (that 50% or more of their dead colonies were found without bees and/or with very few dead bees in the hive or apiary).[18] In the US, despite highly variable anecdotal claims appearing in the media, the best documentation indicates that CCD-suffering operations had a total loss of 45% compared to the total loss of 25% of all colonies experienced by non-CCD suffering beekeepers in 2006-2007; it is further noted that non-CCD winter losses as high as 50% have occurred in some years and regions (e.g., 2000-2001 in Pennsylvania), though "normal" winter losses are typically considered to be in the range of 15-25%.

The USDA only tracks commercial bee operations as far as I know. I know the decline of home beekeepers has been around 50% but thats people getting out of raising bees.

The real issue behind imported bees revolved around world trade and barriers (read quarenteen) being lifted so bee exporters could ship bees into the USA with no quality/illness checking. That occurred in 2002 (the paperwork was signed) and is one of the reasons Australia as a source of ccd was investigated. People were questioning the onset of CCD coinciding with this barrier to trade being lifted.

we must be talking of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of crops that rely on this pollination, with a potential effect of billions directly effected in food production and then the on flow of related industry of farm and crop servicing.


I googled for just this info and found no correlation between CCD and crop reduction. At least not to this point in time. Every crop failure was directly related to weather conditions, or reduced planting (especially in the former USSR areas). Last time I checked for info on the 2007 honey harvest, I was unable to find it. But that was back in like march or april.

Look up pictures of almond groves. There is plenty of room for native bee populations if the almond growers themselves want to take some responsibility for pollination of their crops.

I have bumblebees around here. Big fat ones. I hope the flowers help them and keep them around. I have noticed an upsurge in bumblebees - after years of increasing scarcity in both kind and number, coinciding with obvious competition from honeybees (dunno if that's the cause).

The are still not as prevalent as I recall from childhood, by any means, but it's likely the absence of honeybees is good for them.

You know iceaura, I never thought about it but you're right. I remember bumble bees being everywhere when I was a kid. But I haven't seen them much til lately. I saw a few last summer and a bunch this summer.
Would it make sense that fewer honey bees = more bumble bees? How would they compete?