Hey people,
what do you think about investments in clean energy sources like solar panels, windmills, and similar non-pollution systems?
It's pretty expensive technology and it's still heavily in development. However I see a positive trend in the industry and if the oil price keep growing it could turn to very profitable business.

Hey people, what do you think about investments in clean energy sources like solar panels, windmills, and similar non-pollution systems?

If you're talking about personal investments, then I'd suggest that you stay away from the energy industry. There are so many interconnecting factors to consider that the average investor just couldn't/can't keep up to it all.

It's pretty expensive technology and it's still heavily in development. However I see a positive trend in the industry and if the oil price keep growing it could turn to very profitable business.

Yeah, "IF" is always the problem, ain't it? "IF" someone discovers a new field of oil, the price might go down and your investment would turn pretty UN-profitable.

If you're seeking a field for personal investments, look into the field of caring for "old people"! It's a vast, growing industry, and there's tons of money being spent trying to keep us ol' farts alive for just one more day! Assisted living; Nursing care; Old Fart Living Facilities; Old Fart Hospitals; Old Fart Faclity Management; Old Fart Facility Cleaning Services; ....anything to do with Old Farts is going to do nothing but grow.

Baron Max

I'm the only one who voted :)

Hey people,
what do you think about investments in clean energy sources like solar panels, windmills, and similar non-pollution systems?
It's pretty expensive technology and it's still heavily in development. However I see a positive trend in the industry and if the oil price keep growing it could turn to very profitable business.

Long term yes, short term no. I'd invest in both big oil and alternatives, with most my money in big oil, because oil is here for the next 20 years. The oither stuff is what, 20 years away at best? I doubt you'll live to see the profits, or at least a lot of people wont.

20 years, is just too long term to put a lot of faith into. I'd wait until I actually see a critical mass, or a change in politics.

It is a fantastic field to get into. Soon the Democrats will be in control, and we might then take the energy problem seriously. There will be many government grants and subsidies in the field. The price of oil is fluctuating, but headed upwards. I think there will be gains in the Railroad industry as well as solar, nuclear, and other alternatives.

I strongly believe that many people will realize that clean energy is not only for the profit. It's a kind of humanity savior. Organic fuel combustion produces high degree of atmospheric pollution with catastrophic consequences.

Of course, it's not a factor of valuation for investors. They will chase the profit without a bit of ethics. But the government should provide more regulation regarding carbon emissions or we will soon experience hell on the earth.

However, when I consider all those factors I came to a conclusion, either we will "live" hell on earth where no money will help anyone or the clean energy will soon become very profitable business.

Of course, it's not a factor of valuation for investors. They will chase the profit without a bit of ethics.

Which is, of course, what the original poster wanted to know. And as an investment at the present, it sucks big time! The payback, if any, will be far into the future ....and it's a major gamble against all odds.

But the government should provide more regulation regarding carbon emissions or we will soon experience hell on the earth.

More government regulations for private citizens and companies, huh? Freedom's just a word that means nothing to us?

If the people, the society, didn't want all that shit pumped into the air, then they'd do something about it. What the people want is cheap energy, and they don't give a shit how they get it.

Everyone claims to want clean air, but they don't want to suffer or to pay for it in terms of higher energy costs. Talk is cheap, ain't it??

Baron Max

Alternative energy costs are only high because it is not readily available, Max. Think supply and demand. The present US government is not very friendyl towards alternative energy because it is biased towards oil. The present government has a lot of investment in oil, which is the main factor influencing their behaviour. This is the good olde agency problem...

In Germany, for instance, alternative energy represents over 50% of all the energy in the country. In Germany, alternative energy is BIG business. Take for instance...

"And it has created a new, multibillion-dollar industry and tens of thousands of new jobs. The German wind industry now employs more people than nuclear power (an industry that provides 30 percent of the nation’s electricity) without a commensurate increase in electricity costs."
http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Germany-Alternative-EnergyJun03.htm

And how did they do?

These initiatives have drawn billions of dollars to the renewable energy industry, while technology standards have reduced risk and created confidence by keeping out substandard machinery. The government has also promoted awareness of renewable technologies and available subsidies through publications and training programs.

""Such rock-solid policies ended uncertainties about whether producers could sell their electricity into the grid and at what price. They also provided investor confidence—attracting investment money and making it easier for even small renewable power producers to obtain bank loans. Germans from diverse backgrounds and income levels have been able to invest in renewable energy projects, leading to a surge in installed capacity and associated jobs, and reinforcing political support.""

Reducing costs and increasing efficiency...
""Increased investment has also driven improvements in technology, advanced learning and experience, and produced economies of scale resulting in dramatic cost reductions. Between 1990 and 2000 the average cost of manufacturing wind turbines in Germany fell by 43 percent. Between 1992 and 2001, PV capacity experienced an average annual growth rate of nearly 49 percent. German PV manufacturers plan to expand their facilities significantly over the coming years to meet rapidly rising demand, a step that will further reduce costs and increase employment.""

And finally...

""On-and-off policies in the US have created market cycles of boom and bust, making it difficult to develop strong domestic industries. As a result, the U.S. is the only country where total wind-generating capacity has actually declined in some years.""


CLEARLY, you are VERY wrong, Baron Max. And as zox said, government policy is a great influence in the market. If the Democrats want renewable energy, it WILL happen.

More government regulations for private citizens and companies, huh? Freedom's just a word that means nothing to us?
Let's live in anarchy then. What do you say about that?
Imagine that all the laws and rules and police and legal courts are removed from a city or town or area of people. Just take a moment to imagine it ...how some people will speed or drink and drive or discriminate or lash out or steal or......

Take a moment to think about how humans act and react. That reality alone should tell you that humans can't live without the force of law and the force of the police.

Humans live in a very large jail cell ......with the bars made of laws, rules, police, courts, customs, regulations,.... But it's a jail, nevertheless. And it can't be anything but.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=60327


Clearly, your opinion changes according to what is more convenient for you, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

I strongly believe that many people will realize that clean energy is not only for the profit. It's a kind of humanity savior. Organic fuel combustion produces high degree of atmospheric pollution with catastrophic consequences.

Of course, it's not a factor of valuation for investors. They will chase the profit without a bit of ethics. But the government should provide more regulation regarding carbon emissions or we will soon experience hell on the earth.

However, when I consider all those factors I came to a conclusion, either we will "live" hell on earth where no money will help anyone or the clean energy will soon become very profitable business.

Cleaner energy will not save humanity. Let me make it clear, clean energy will NOT save humanity.

Clean energy will save everything else. It will keep stupid humans from destroying the entire planet and all the life on it, by reducing the pollution. It's equal to for example, agreeing not to use nuclear weapons because you know that if you use it, it could destroy the earth.

It's not about humans, humans could go extinct and most of the animals except for dogs and cats, wouldnt give a shit, because all we do is extinct them anyway. Currently, humans are the ultimate destroyers of life, unless we decide to become the ultimate protectors of life, cleaner energy is not going to change anything, it's just going to limit our destruction to ourselves a bit. This way when we finally extinct ourselves we don't take every other lifeform with us.

Alternative energy costs are only high because it is not readily available, Max. Think supply and demand.

Prove that the jobs created by altenrative energy companies cannot be outsourced.


The present US government is not very friendyl towards alternative energy because it is biased towards oil. The present government has a lot of investment in oil, which is the main factor influencing their behaviour. This is the good olde agency problem...
Provide proof.

In Germany, for instance, alternative energy represents over 50% of all the energy in the country. In Germany, alternative energy is BIG business. Take for instance...

"And it has created a new, multibillion-dollar industry and tens of thousands of new jobs. The German wind industry now employs more people than nuclear power (an industry that provides 30 percent of the nation’s electricity) without a commensurate increase in electricity costs."
http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Germany-Alternative-EnergyJun03.htm


Prove these jobs can never be outsourced, mechanized, or automated. I think alternative energy is good for investors, I don't think job creation matters much unless it's permanent and not outsourceable. I think otherwise we should look at this as investors, we likely won't keep the energy jobs, they'll likely be outsourced UNLESS, it's advanced enough that it cannot be done anywhere else, like high tech nanowires and nanotubes.


And how did they do?

These initiatives have drawn billions of dollars to the renewable energy industry, while technology standards have reduced risk and created confidence by keeping out substandard machinery. The government has also promoted awareness of renewable technologies and available subsidies through publications and training programs.

Sure, but you are confused about something. Alternative or renewable energy does not guarentee economic progress, it's a good move long term sure, short term no. So yeah because I think long term I think it would be a good long term investment, but I don't think it will be profitable short term.


""Such rock-solid policies ended uncertainties about whether producers could sell their electricity into the grid and at what price. They also provided investor confidence—attracting investment money and making it easier for even small renewable power producers to obtain bank loans. Germans from diverse backgrounds and income levels have been able to invest in renewable energy projects, leading to a surge in installed capacity and associated jobs, and reinforcing political support.""

Investment is good, stocks are good, if the average American can invest and profit from alternative energy thats good. But I think right now, oil is more profitable, invest in that.

[/QUOTE]

How are Democrats going to make it happen? The entire economy is based on oil. Oil is here to stay.

You are right, someday alternative energy will be profitable, SOMEDAY. Today oil is profitable, and if you are smart you'd bet on big oil because big oil just profited in the hundreds of billions last year, when a corporation can make 100 billion in a quarter, thats insane profits. If you don't invest in a company like that you are insane. It's just too profitable to avoid.

You can think long term, but you have to survive in the short term. So unless you are in a position where you are rich beyond rich, I suggest you put your money wherever you can double it.

Prove that the jobs created by altenrative energy companies cannot be outsourced.
This thread has absolutely nothing to do with jobs and outsourcing. :bugeye:

Provide proof.
Where do you live? Mars? Everyone has know that for a looooong time...
http://www.rense.com/general14/bushsformer.htm
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/FTPROOT/presentations/25thann/sld009.htm


Prove these jobs can never be outsourced, mechanized, or automated. I think alternative energy is good for investors, I don't think job creation matters much unless it's permanent and not outsourceable. I think otherwise we should look at this as investors, we likely won't keep the energy jobs, they'll likely be outsourced UNLESS, it's advanced enough that it cannot be done anywhere else, like high tech nanowires and nanotubes.
Doesn't matter. The thread is about investing in alternative energy. I proved that alternative energy is a good investment.

Sure, but you are confused about something. Alternative or renewable energy does not guarentee economic progress, it's a good move long term sure, short term no. So yeah because I think long term I think it would be a good long term investment, but I don't think it will be profitable short term.
Huuummm... yes, you might very well be right on that one.
Still, you can buy stocks for long-term dividends. And if you are young, you can buy them for cheap today and sell it for a lot when you are ready to retire. That beats relying on a bankrupt government system. ;)

Investment is good, stocks are good, if the average American can invest and profit from alternative energy thats good. But I think right now, oil is more profitable, invest in that.
Is it profitable? How much does it cost to buy an oil stock? And for how much can you sell? Don't you think they should be quite overpriced by now?

Stocks are based on perception. The perception in the past few years is that we are running out of oil. Eventually, oil is coming down- it's not going to go up anymore.

How are Democrats going to make it happen? The entire economy is based on oil. Oil is here to stay.
Less the 100 years ago, there were no cars in the streets- they were all chariots. 10 years ago, the internet was at its infancy. Both began with government subsidies. Saying that oil is here to stay is not really that wise of you...

You are right, someday alternative energy will be profitable, SOMEDAY. Today oil is profitable, and if you are smart you'd bet on big oil because big oil just profited in the hundreds of billions last year, when a corporation can make 100 billion in a quarter, thats insane profits. If you don't invest in a company like that you are insane. It's just too profitable to avoid.
How much are their shares?
Do you understand that stock trading is like surfing? You have to catch the wave in the beginning- not the end.

You can think long term, but you have to survive in the short term. So unless you are in a position where you are rich beyond rich, I suggest you put your money wherever you can double it.
Alternative energy has a lot of potential and a lot of room to grow. Those stoks are cheap. Oil stocks are expensive, because everyone wants to buy them. You are not thinking like an enterpreneur- you are going with flow. Go against the flow and you might make big bucks. ;)