In an IRC abortion debate I saw the argument presented that human beings (by the legal definition) are, for want of a better word, “superior” to fetuses because they have the neurological equipment needed to be sentient beings, whereas fetuses do not (at least not before the 7th month of gestation).

The pro-life retort to this argument, as I understand it, is to point out that deep coma victims aren't sentient either. Therefore human beings are “superior” to them. If this is the case, then why do pro-choice supporters condemn fetuses as “inferior” due to their lack of sentience while at the same time doing everything in our power to keep the coma victims alive? Shouldn't they be regarded on precisely the same level if the logic is to be carried through properly, and without contradiction?

Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding one or several aspects of this argument and retort but it seems to me like this pro-life counter argument is fairly unassailable. Therefore, should the pro-choice camp disregard any arguments which center around sentience as being a marker for what constitutes a human person altogether?

Peace.

Ooooh, thats a toughy. A fetus is not "born" so to speak, and a coma victim "is" or already has been. But I understand what your saying goofyfish. Let me think on this one a little more:D

Goofyfish,

It's true that coma victims and fetuses are both not sentient, but this is not the true argument for pro-choice. I believe that the true argument would be that the fetus is nothing more than an organ to its mother, and the mother has a right to do what she wishes to her own organs.

I hope this argument doesn't sound too cold.


Tom

I would say that the usual pro-choice argument is that the foetus hasn't developed the apparatus required for feeling of any kind, which is why the line is often drawn at the first trimester of pregnancy. In contrast, a coma patient has all of the neurological apparatus required to feel pain, to be a distinct mind, etc. etc. Nevertheless, it is a reasonably fine line to draw. Most people don't think twice about turning off the life support of a brain-dead patient. In fact, that is the modern criterion usually used to determine if a person is to be considered dead. A coma patient is not brain dead. There is always a chance that the patient will resume ordinary activity at some stage. Compare the early foetus, which has not developed to the stage where "normal activity" has commenced in the brain (or even to the stage where a true brain exists).

This is as far as the point as could be.

The problem is not if it has been sentient or not! Or if it is, or if it will be.

The problem is what species it is. The best way to determine a species is genetics.

A foetus always had, has, and will always have until terminated, a human genetic code. That genetic code was there from day 1. It is one of a kind. There has never been any like it, nor will there ever be. It is a treasure of life and uniqueness.

It is also a human being.

And according to my standards of 'Ethics, Morality & Justice' since that *is* the forum, you don't kill a human being.

End of story.

I would like to add that in past times men thought it as a token of the superiority of humankind over animalkind that starved animals would sometimes eat their offspring in order to do that and men wouldn't. Now it's become a business.

Leo- while you have every right to your opinions and beliefs, you are not entitled to impose them on anyone else.

I am anti abortion (i will say that now) but i think their are times when it might be necery (if the child is serverly deformed or the pregancy will kill the mother) other than that there are other options and life is sacred i don't belive in Capital punishment and it would be hipocritical of me to say thatabortion is a good thing.

Originally posted by LeoDV
I would like to add that in past times men thought it as a token of the superiority of humankind over animalkind that starved animals would sometimes eat their offspring in order to do that and men wouldn't. Now it's become a business.This little swerve at the end of your post threw me. There are humans in the business of eating their own offspring?

Peace.

LeoDV thanks for pointing out the DNA thing.
(BTW don't think the point of the child eating-business part is to be taken literally).

JoeBlow I do not know what idea people have about what is an organ... but another individual is not an organ.

Io I am entitled to my opinion as well: My opinion is that some people should be imposed superior ideas upon!

Why is it that one of the worst crimes is killing an innocent child that is incapable of defending itself, where it is okay to kill an embrio that even more innocent child that is even less capable of defending itself?
A foetus is a human being is an early stage of development. Is that so hard to realise?!

Merlijn,

Whether you like it or not, a fetus is just an organ. It can't eat or breath. It is COMPLETELY reliant on its mother for food and nutrients just like an organ.

"A foetus is a human being is an early stage of development. Is that so hard to realise?!"

Isn't a fertilized human egg cell an early human being?? What about sperm cells, they contain the complete genetic code of the father??

LeoDV:

It's funny you should mention DNA. How different is the DNA of a human compared to the DNA of a monkey, or even a mouse??

You'll find out that all animal DNA's are far more similiar than you think.

Tom

"Isn't a fertilized human egg cell an early human being?? ..."
* Yes it is. That was exactly the point I was trying to make.

"...What about sperm cells, they contain the complete genetic code of the father?? "
* No a sperm cell (or ovary cell for that matter) is not a human: the genetical make-up make those cells gametes. A gamete is a cell with half the genetic material of the parent that produced it, to be completed with half the genetic material of the other parent by means of conception to form a new organism.

"How different is the DNA of a human compared to the DNA of a monkey, or even a mouse??
You'll find out that all animal DNA's are far more similiar than you think."
* May I speak for LeoDV? I know there is an enourmous amount of overlap between the genetical code of different species on this obscure globe.
But that is beside the point. A not-so-relevant comment I have for you is that different species have different numbers of chromosomes.
Relevant is that all of this does not change the fact that different organisms have different genotypes (except identical twins, at least they still have different phenotypes.... hehehe)

and again: a foetus is not an organ!
Where do you come from? This is planet Earth, not Zwo*rk. :D
The criteria for an object to be an organ or an organism are not those you have mentioned.

Merlijn,

Maybe I was misunderstood about calling a fetus an organ. By organ I mean a part of the body that is completely reliant on the body for nutrition. The fetus acts like an organ until it is born, then it becomes an individual.

So I see that you stated that a sperm cell has only half of the genetic code of the father. How similiar is the missing half of the genetic code compared to the half that is present in the sperm cell?

Tom

Putting DNA and sentience (sp?) aside here's my belief:
You choose to have the fun (a.k.a. sex) you should be prepared to deal with the consequences. Even if you can't afford a child, or even if you don't want it, there is always couple out there who can't have kids and would gladly adopt yours. Why should we waste time arguing over when a fetus is considered a human? The fact is, it becomes a human. Look at it this way,
If your pet dog was pregnant, you wouldn't kill the unborn puppies, you would wait until after she gives birth and you would give the puppies to someone who wants them. If we have this much respect for unborn dogs, why can't we have the same respect for an unborn human???
-Aphrodite

"You choose to have the fun (a.k.a. sex) you should be
prepared to deal with the consequences."

Come off of it! I take it that you've never heard of pregnancies
resulting from incest or rape?

"... even if you don't want it, there is always couple out
there who can't have kids and would gladly adopt yours."

Sure, if it's a white, healthy infant. How about the rest?

Take care :rolleyes:

Now I know why the Goddess of Love was renouned only for her beauty.

Just back to the coma point for a sec'.
Most coma victims are as a result of trauma which causes problems including swelling of the brain.

In many cases the actual coma is man made by the injection of muscle relaxants and sleep inducing drugs. This is to give the brain time to 'settle' and for any swelling to reduce.

Otherwise it's possible for the brain to be pushed thru the hole at the base of the skull causing death instantly.

I used to work on an intensive care unit for brain injury. It was very fascinating.

I'm a bit of a coward and on the fence as far as abortion is concerned. On one hand I see it as a possiblewaste of life on the part of the unborn child.

On the other when I see a 13 year old girl pregnant and I wonder what life the child can look forward to. Or a child born a heroin addict.. There has to be a point where it's better all round for an earlly pregnancy to be terminated. Its just a little realistic and probably cold.

I don't think thqat child can miss a life it never had the cogniscense to appreciate.

Whether I personally think that abortion is right or wrong is beside the point.

Whether I agree with it or not, it doesn't give me the right to choose for anyone else.

The thing is, abortion is going to happen anyway, whether it's legal or illegal. In the olden days when it wasn't available, people would do it themselves with knitting needles and stuff, many people died as a result of this. Abortion will always happen regardless of what people think, I think that if it's inevitable, it might as well be available in a safe and hygenic way.

No one ever wants to have an abortion, I'm sure it's not exactly a pleasant experience. I've had friends who have had to go through it. But as it's unfortuately a necessary evil, it should be made available.

Merlijn- it's just your opinion that it's a superior idea. It happens to be subjective.

Io

IO,

"Merlijn- it's just your opinion that it's a superior idea. It happens to be subjective."

this can be funny :) hehehe No my opinion (which is to your opinion as ture as your own) is that my idea is not that it is better, but that it should be imposed upon others :D hehehe

**Now I know why the Goddess of Love was renouned only for her beauty.**
Yeah I know I'm not that bright...what can I say?

**Come off of it! I take it that you've never heard of pregnancies
resulting from incest or rape? **
Sorry, sorry, a million times sorry- I left out the part about rape. Can you ever forgive me???
In the case of rape, well, I dunno. I'm slightly more understanding of abortion in that case....I don't think I could carry the constant reminder of a rape for 9 months.
But in general, most abortions you hear about aren't because of incest or rape. They are because someone didn't use a rubber, and in those cases I have no pity towards the woman.
-Aphrodire

I don't think I could carry the constant reminder of a rape for 9 months.

You wouldnt carry it for just 9 months, if you decide to keep the child then you would be reminded for the rest of your life that your darling little boy/girl was created out of force and violence, not love and serenity.

I don't know how you do the thing, but I experience no serenity.

I'm reasonably certain I won't have any friggin idea what I believe about this stuff until/unless it happens to me. But then, I'm quite drunk now. :)

Adam, I am starting to believe you are. :)

Where have ethics ever gotten us?

All you morally driven people would kill 10,000 innocent civilians over torturing one man. Personally, I care more about the lives of others than my own personal ethics.

A fetus is potential-human. I am more concerned with the life of the mother than the life of the child. If the mother thinks the best option is abortion, let 'er do it.

A foetus always had, has, and will always have until terminated, a human genetic code. That genetic code was there from day 1. It is one of a kind. There has never been any like it, nor will there ever be. It is a treasure of life and uniqueness.


Well gee, so does every little gamete.....

So, basically, men who masturbate are mass murderers?

*Xev pauses to roll on the floor and howl with laughter*

Oooh the humanity!

Oh yes, and there is a real business of raising children for food. Infants are exceedingly tasty with fava beans and a nice Chianti...:D

Aphrodite: For one with your nick, you are woefully stupid when it comes to sex:
But in general, most abortions you hear about aren't because of incest or rape. They are because someone didn't use a rubber, and in those cases I have no pity towards the woman.

Care to back it up? And, er, you do know that condoms fail, on occasion?

Don't they teach sex ed on Olympus?

How much intervention in a natural life? I'm all for fetal viability; that is, can the fetus survive outside the mother? And here we draw some distinctions:

•*A baby born cannot feed itself. I do not hold this against the baby.
• I have no objections to incubating a newborn against, say, disease.
•*I do however think that at some point the amount of medical science needed to give the fetus a shot outside the mother becomes an issue.

Thus, if the baby cannot survive on its own, as such--that is, if it cannot breathe on its own, if it cannot maintain its own vital functions without extended medical intervention, there is where I call abortion acceptable.

Think of it this way: if the mother were to die, but you could remove the developing fetus ... what would you have to do in order for it to survive? My cousin's child, born at seven months, required incubation and attention to allow it to finish developing its lungs. It did not, however, require any form of forced respiration. I would cast my vote against abortion in that specific circumstance--that is, were it my choice. However, I just saw an ultrasound of a friend's pregnancy and there is, indeed a heartbeat. If she were to die, however, and the fetus removed, I can't quite describe to you what would have to be done to maintain and preserve its life.

Regarding coma patients: Every chance I get I vote for the right of a person to check out. Living will, assisted suicide, and, perhaps euthanasia (per living will).

But what of the parents who have children for the same reason the anti-choice movement accuses people of aborting--e.g. convenience or other personal reasons? For instance, my friend's pregnancy--she is not financially prepared for a child; she is not mentally, spiritually, or intellectually prepared for a child; she is not chemically prepared for a child. She is carrying the pregnancy to term because she honestly believes this is her last chance to reproduce. Now, having also watched her deceive her partner while she calculated a pregnancy he didn't want to be a part of--she did, in fact, lie to him about her reproductive status--I'm starting to wonder if reproducing is really a good idea for this one. Neither one of them believe that putting the child up for adoption would be a good thing--check that ... at least one of them finds it unacceptable, and the other would rather not anyway. Well, that and it hasn't occurred to her to stop smoking an eighth of weed every day while she's pregnant. Ummmm .... This particular pregnancy is idiocy. It should not have been conceived, and one way or the other, is bound to end in tragedy. Either the fetus will miscarry, or the fetus will be born suffering developmental arrests, or else these two are going to parent the child into a pine box. It's all gloom and tears.

But we all have hope, so we all smile and cheer and make them think this is a good thing. (Well, he knows, but she thinks people are being genuine.)

But if we're going to talk about abortion rights, I also demand that people give a moment's thought to how bad an idea carrying a pregnancy to term can be.

I mean, this child is screwed no matter what happens. Absolutely f--king screwed.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool: