I have come to two different sources, both people, claiming difference's on the Roman Catholic Church's involvement with Hitler in WW2. Before you tell me to go look it up myself, i tried, and the only stuff I got ... well... some sources contradicted each other. I have no idea which is right and I was hoping one of you very bright individuals could tell me? ;)

The Catholic Church is implicated in both the first and second World Wars. The part played by cardinal Pacelli, later Pope Pius 12th, is well analysed in Hitler’s Pope. Pacelli systematically undermined the powerful catholic Centre Party negotiating them out of political action in accord with Hitler’s wishes.

The Centre Party, which had been important in resisting Bismarck, was thus neutralised. The foolishness was forwarded in particular by Papen, Centre Party deputy and Weimar Chancellor; and by Kaas, who was a priest, Centre Party leader, and a Centre Party representative in the Weimar government.

The first ‘state’ to recognise Hitler’s third Reich was the Vatican

I have come to two different sources, both people, claiming difference's on the Roman Catholic Church's involvement with Hitler in WW2. Before you tell me to go look it up myself, i tried, and the only stuff I got ... well... some sources contradicted each other. I have no idea which is right and I was hoping one of you very bright individuals could tell me? ;)

The catholic church has always played the harlot with the kings of the earth. Why should it be different in Hitler’s case?

At the time they feared the communist more than anything else so they supported the fascists. Just like the USA when it supported Saddam because it feared the Iranian Islamic’s more. The world is full of people playing the dirty game of power. Their game is a game of eternal losers, Jesus will put an end to it one day. Maybe soon.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I have come to two different sources, both people, claiming difference's on the Roman Catholic Church's involvement with Hitler in WW2. Before you tell me to go look it up myself, i tried, and the only stuff I got ... well... some sources contradicted each other. I have no idea which is right and I was hoping one of you very bright individuals could tell me? ;)

Yeah the Pope could have stopped Hitler any time, didnt you know that? ha ha.

The truth is the Catholic church was insignificant to the third reich, they were occult based...that is the truth.

he was(Hitler), in point of fact, latent homosexual and later on became dependant on pharmaceutical speed, which only fostered these desires...although he knew about this the dependance was too strong...thus the battle within. there you have it.

he was(Hitler), in point of fact, latent homosexual and later on became dependant on pharmaceutical speed, which only fostered these desires...although he knew about this the dependance was too strong...thus the battle within. there you have it.

*************
M*W: Well, that's a new one to me. I know about his rampant drug use, and I'm not surprised that he may have been a latent homosexual, but I find a problem in that his drug use would "foster his homosexual desires." I could more easily understand it if his drug use lowered his inhibitions to where he acted on his homosexual desires, but fostered it, I don't think so. His homosexual desires were probably a manifestation of his insatiable hunger for power and control. And Eva was no prize either.

*************
M*W: Well, that's a new one to me. I know about his rampant drug use, and I'm not surprised that he may have been a latent homosexual, but I find a problem in that his drug use would "foster his homosexual desires." I could more easily understand it if his drug use lowered his inhibitions to where he acted on his homosexual desires, but fostered it, I don't think so. His homosexual desires were probably a manifestation of his insatiable hunger for power and control. And Eva was no prize either.

I am certain my post is accurate. The particular drug (type) known to wreak havoc on sexual impulses, not to mentoin rage. Inhibition has noithing to do with it, he could have dealt with it (there nothing wrong with feeling that way) and hid it but that drug was like fuel and it was not so much what he did in that respect or waether he acted on those feelings but the thoughts inside his head. He became consumed with it and this was manifesetd in his feeling of self loathiong and disgust.

Yes, Eva...how do you explain her? Why would she believe in him? I wonder if she killed herself or if someone killed her. I bet she was done in.

Have you seen the John Cusack movie about Hitler being a failed artist? I dont remember the name but it was very good.

I am certain my post is accurate. The particular drug (type) known to wreak havoc on sexual impulses, not to mentoin rage. Inhibition has noithing to do with it, he could have dealt with it (there nothing wrong with feeling that way) and hid it but that drug was like fuel and it was not so much what he did in that respect or waether he acted on those feelings but the thoughts inside his head. He became consumed with it and this was manifesetd in his feeling of self loathiong and disgust.

Yes, Eva...how do you explain her? Why would she believe in him? I wonder if she killed herself or if someone killed her. I bet she was done in.

Have you seen the John Cusack movie about Hitler being a failed artist? I dont remember the name but it was very good.

*************
M*W: No, I haven't seen the movie, but Hitler's failure as an artist and his hypersexual expression seems to go together. All art comes from within the sexual self. Obviously, if he was an artistic failure, he was a sexual failure as well.

I don't think Eva had a choice. If Hitler committed suicide, and as far as I know he did, Eva probably committed suicide, too. However, I guess none of us will ever really know what happened in that bunker except for what we've been told. Didn't they take some drugs before shooting themselves? Perhaps they were unconscious when someone else pulled the triggers. I don't know, but I don't believe they ever came out of that bunker alive.

Hitler had a thing for a young niece whose story goes that she was impregnated by her Uncle Adolf, and she met with her demise at the young age of 15 or so.

Could anyone provide proof of some sorts that Hitler and the church were involved at least in some positive (if you could call it that) way with each other? I'd really enjoy showing it to some of my... rather loud and obnoxious Catholic friends who find everyone else damned automatically.

I love how the conservative asserts that the Nazi Germany regime was athiest...so quick to disassociate his own religion with the horrors of human history.

The Nazi regime was aimed at the creation of a "perfect" society by eliminating the "undesirables".

This is a running theme of atheist dictators.

The Nazi regime was aimed at the creation of a "perfect" society by eliminating the "undesirables".

This is a running theme of atheist dictators.it's the running theme for all dictators. Ida Amin Dada was muslim, Saddam Hussain muslim, Qadhafi muslim, your point is, what.

it's the running theme for all dictators. Ida Amin Dada was muslim, Saddam Hussain muslim, Qadhafi muslim, your point is, what.

The others weren't aiming for a perfect society, only a powerless one.

The others weren't aiming for a perfect society, only a powerless one.

You missed the point. A dictator, is a dictator, is a dictator. They are all aiming for monopolic control.

You missed the point. A dictator, is a dictator, is a dictator. They are all aiming for monopolic control.

That would make every President a dictator.

Atheist dictators otoh, are aiming for a certain type of society and eliminate everyone who does not fulfil their "requirements"

Could anyone provide proof of some sorts that Hitler and the church were involved at least in some positive (if you could call it that) way with each other? I'd really enjoy showing it to some of my... rather loud and obnoxious Catholic friends who find everyone else damned automatically.

*************
M*W: There is much information on this topic. A bibliography is included from this site:

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler's_Pope

Hitler may have been personally atheist, but he used religion as a tool of control.

Hitler may have been personally atheist, but he used religion as a tool of control.

All atheist dictators do that, and even some silly atheistic scientists.;)

That would make every President a dictator.

Atheist dictators otoh, are aiming for a certain type of society and eliminate everyone who does not fulfil their "requirements"
Not exactly. Not that he's being very representative of the job he's supposed to be doing, but our president (the position that is) is not a dictatorial position. He has, count with me, 565 members of Congress and the Judicial branch to keep him in check. Which is what they (Congress) are trying to do now. That's why you see a huge debate between the dems and gop. A true dictator would not have to worry about Congress keeping him in check. If our president was a full blown dictator, as bad as we are off right now, we'd be a lot worse.
Are you from/live in the United States? It doesn't seem like it.

I was under the impression that the nazi regime was founded and forced aryan supremacy with a touch of puritan religion if you will. Hitler et al wished to remove religions that "endangered the german race". Both judaism and the jehovah witness religion were heavily persecuted while protestant and catholic powers by and large looked on in silence. Matter of fact, the nazi regime even had an installed bishop of the protestant persuasion.

Other facets and aspects notwithstanding, religion was clearly a part of the nazi regime; to blatantly plaster atheism over an illogical form of leadership is a clear attempt at demonizing what is conceived as religions' current enemy.

I was under the impression that the nazi regime was founded and forced aryan supremacy with a touch of puritan religion if you will. Hitler et al wished to remove religions that "endangered the german race". Both judaism and the jehovah witness religion were heavily persecuted while protestant and catholic powers by and large looked on in silence. Matter of fact, the nazi regime even had an installed bishop of the protestant persuasion.

Other facets and aspects notwithstanding, religion was clearly a part of the nazi regime; to blatantly plaster atheism over an illogical form of leadership is a clear attempt at demonizing what is conceived as religions' current enemy.

Nothing to do with the perceived inability of Jews to assimilate in "society", then? Or gays? Or handicapped? Tramps? Africans? Untermenschen? Or the 6 million or so Poles who were a "threat" to Nazi ideology of a perfect society? The "scientific" experiments on infants brought up in isolation? The "tests" of racial supremacy and eugenics?

Wait, thats all religion of course.:rolleyes:

The Nazi regime was aimed at the creation of a "perfect" society by eliminating the "undesirables".

This is a running theme of atheist dictators.

To address this spurious and lackluster comment directly; even if you were right that every single nazi subscribed to atheism, where do you get off saying that there is a running theme of athiest dictators? Do you detect a pattern from more than say 3 athiest dictators? (And by athiest dictators I mean anyone on Hitler's level who outspokenly said that they do not believe in any form of god, deity or divinity).

Can you show me a proven 'theme' that 1. there have been a statistically useful set of athiest dictators, and that if so 2. their goal was exactly the same as the nazi regime?

Sam sweetiepie...note that I said I was not considering all the other atrocities for the purposes of this discussion. I said ONE of the aspects was to attack what they percieved as threatening religions. Judaism and JW were two. Catholicism and Protestant(ism) were state approved. The nazis therefore could not be an athiest regime. Finis.

I thought Hitler was a Christian, or did he just claim to be?

I thought Hitler was a Christian, or did he just claim to be?

He was anti-Christianity, then he realised he could get more people on his side if he was pro-Christian.

Basically he was just a nutter.

Whatever Hitler's motivation, the nazi regime supported catholicism. Therefore the regime could not be athiestic.

What's a woo-woo Sam?

To address this spurious and lackluster comment directly; even if you were right that every single nazi subscribed to atheism, where do you get off saying that there is a running theme of athiest dictators? Do you detect a pattern from more than say 3 athiest dictators? (And by athiest dictators I mean anyone on Hitler's level who outspokenly said that they do not believe in any form of god, deity or divinity).

Can you show me a proven 'theme' that 1. there have been a statistically useful set of athiest dictators, and that if so 2. their goal was exactly the same as the nazi regime?

Easy enough to disprove; show me an atheist dictator who did not eliminate people that did not "fit into" his perfect society.

I thought Hitler was a Christian, or did he just claim to be?

*************
M*W: I believe he was raised as a Roman Catholic, however, he had a Jewish grandfather on his mother's side, I think.

Easy enough to disprove; show me an atheist dictator who did not eliminate people that did not "fit into" his perfect society.

Extremely dodgy Sam, you made the claim, now prove it.

My whole point of addressing your statement was to show you that you do not even have a significant sample on which to draw a pattern from. Two or three athiest dictators do not a pattern make.

Let's put it another way. Show me ANY dictator who did not eliminate people that didn't fit into his perfect society. Let's start from christianity's god and move from there shall we?

The Nazi regime was aimed at the creation of a "perfect" society by eliminating the "undesirables".

This is a running theme of atheist dictators.

True. The weird part is the leaders take on a godlike persona.:shrug:

Extremely dodgy Sam, you made the claim, now prove it.

My whole point of addressing your statement was to show you that you do not even have a significant sample on which to draw a pattern from. Two or three athiest dictators do not a pattern make.

Let's put it another way. Show me ANY dictator who did not eliminate people that didn't fit into his perfect society. Let's start from christianity's god and move from there shall we?

Sure take any dictator who was not atheist. :p

Btw, Christianity's god cannot be a dictator, unless you can prove that he is a person.

Pick any atheist dictator. He/she will have killed more people in the name of social perfection than any theist dictator.

I just did...and christianity's god killed everyone who didn't fit into his perfect society. Plus you're still avoiding my initial challenge by reversing the question on me. Very LG of you Sam.

I just did...and christianity's god killed everyone who didn't fit into his perfect society. Plus you're still avoiding my initial challenge by reversing the question on me. Very LG of you Sam.

You could pick any atheist dictator who doesn't fit the paradigm, obviously you cannot find one.:p

I thought no-one watched PBS anymore.

I do :bugeye:

The Nazi regime was aimed at the creation of a "perfect" society by eliminating the "undesirables".

This is a running theme of atheist dictators.

Sorry, but both Hitler, and other dictators that theists love to label as "atheist" were never conclusively proven to be so. I've read many conflicting quotes from both hitler and others, in private and public.

It's entirely unfair, and illogical, to give labels anyway. Many theists have caused massive destruction in the past.

Hitler may have been personally atheist, but he used religion as a tool of control.

No, spider, as I said before. You should google for quotes, in fact I'll give you a few websites:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#hitler
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/murphy_19_2.html

Google for more. The evidence for hitler, as well as many other dictators, is a far cry from conclusive.

I find it sad that the atheists on this thread have so far not even done a simple google to find a conclusive answer. It's your firm held belief that a God doesn't exist, and ye have questioned theist claims time and again. would it not have made sense to apply that same skeptic nature to claims such as these?

You could pick any atheist dictator who doesn't fit the paradigm, obviously you cannot find one.:p

Babes, I haven't even tried. Simply because you reversed my request for supporting evidence. I'm not even going to bother with this until you prove your own assertation.

Babes, I haven't even tried. Simply because you reversed my request for supporting evidence. I'm not even going to bother with this until you prove your own assertation.

I picked them all. 100% is a statistically significant sample. :)

"all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."

I picked them all. 100% is a statistically significant sample. :)

"all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."

I see no source for that quote there. Or any factual evidence other than most likely made-up statistics.

Also, "in the name of atheism"? So someone went around shouting "IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM I KILL YOU!"?

Sorry, but Atheism doesn't go around killing "in the name of Atheism". That's stupid.

The Nazi regime was aimed at the creation of a "perfect" society by eliminating the "undesirables".

This is a running theme of atheist dictators.
Read a freakin' history book. Hitler was an avowed Catholic his entire life. He often talked about how he was doing "the lord's work" in fighting the Jews. His hatred for the Jews was in large part a religious hatred. He made a special point to persecute the Greek Orthodox people in the countries that he conquered because he considered them to be heretics.

You could pick any atheist dictator who doesn't fit the paradigm, obviously you cannot find one.:pthats probably because there aren't any, People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

this is a common mistake made by theists, typically those of the fundy type, they believe atheism is essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, atheism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. How stupid!

the first thing we should note is there is an automatic and almost unconscious assumption made by these theists that their religion is somehow equivalent with captialism.

Communism is not, however, inherently atheistic. It is possible to have communistic or socialistic views while being a theist and it isn't at all wrong to be an atheist while staunchly defending capitalism, which is a combination often found among objectivists and libertarians.
their existence alone demonstrates, that atheism and communism are not the same thing.

is christianity opposed to commuism? No, the opposite, actually. There is nothing in the gospels which even so much as suggests a divine preference for captialism, now is there.

quite a bit of what Jesus said supports many of the of socialism and even communism. He specifically said that that people should give all they could to the poor and that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

basic communism states to hold all property in common rather than privately, is practiced by numerous Christian communities now and throughout history. references to it can be found in Acts:

Acts 4:33-35 "With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. "
The similarity to Marx's principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" should be obvious.

and here again in Acts:

Acts 5:1-11 "But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; with his wife’s knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. "Ananias," Peter asked, "why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!" Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

The young men came and wrapped up his body, then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you and your husband sold the land for such and such a price." And she said, "Yes, that was the price." Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things."

their deaths served as an example to all the others of what would happen if they, too, held back profits for themselves instead of giving everything to the community.
so we can see that this was the first christian commune(ist) society.

so please lets get away from this silly reference to atheism and communism being the same, the bible is basically a communist manifesto.

I picked them all. 100% is a statistically significant sample. :)

"all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."


1. Who's "them all"? And how many are there?
2. Two athiest dictators out of four hundred dictators is statistically useless. Two of anything is statistically useless to derive a pattern.
3. That quote has no backup or shred of truth.


4. Casualties of the Crusades is estimated at 1,500,000 (inclusive of zealots who died stupidly starving or virus ridden in pursuit of a "higher calling"). Estimated casualties of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear strike - 200,000. It seems that nuclear weaponry pales in comparison to religious fervour and drive. Just as a comparison. :shrug:

1. Who's "them all"? And how many are there?
2. Two athiest dictators out of four hundred dictators is statistically useless. Two of anything is statistically useless to derive a pattern.
3. That quote has no backup or shred of truth.


4. Casualties of the Crusades is estimated at 1,500,000 (inclusive of zealots who died stupidly starving or virus ridden in pursuit of a "higher calling"). Estimated casualties of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear strike - 200,000. It seems that nuclear weaponry pales in comparison to religious fervour and drive. Just as a comparison. :shrug:

Its equivalent to the ratio of atheists in the population.

Out of 10-14% atheists, how many would come to power? And out of those who come to power how many would be dictators? Out of those who are dictators, how many would kill for a perfect society? etc.

You have to use standard errors for a disproportionate sample, not a standard deviation and correct the model accordingly.:)

Read a freakin' history book. Hitler was an avowed Catholic his entire life. He often talked about how he was doing "the lord's work" in fighting the Jews. His hatred for the Jews was in large part a religious hatred. He made a special point to persecute the Greek Orthodox people in the countries that he conquered because he considered them to be heretics.

Why don't you read a freaking history book and figure out when he started doing the Gods work? And why? :rolleyes:

Oh btw can you explain why he imprisoned 12,000 German priests and killed over 7,000 of them, many more nuns and protestant pastors, banned listening radio in Germany Vatican under the threat of imprisonment, etc?

Or explain this?

Hitler did make anti-Christian remarks, like his October 10, 1941 claim that "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (Adolph Hitler, "Table Talk," London, Weidenfelt & Nicholson, 1953)

Hmm?

thats probably because there aren't any, ....

There you go, you see having a belief or unbelief says absolutely nothing about motives. Thanks for clearing that up so nicely.:)

I'm sure there were no areligious motives behind any destruction or massacre committed by atheists.

Yes, but Hitler was cool looking.

I'm sure there were no areligious motives behind any destruction or massacre committed by atheists.

Page 2, my links. These massacre's were not committed by atheists. In fact it's entirely inconclusive. Although there is more evidence saying that those massacre's were of religious origin.

It really does not matter. As I know of none of them that were based on those views. They were based on fascism. That is not atheism.

So, uh, guess what? It doesn't matter if he's a free-thinker. Stop with the pointing of the god damn fingers already.

The religiously deluded will always attempt to paint atheism as an evil entity in the same vein as religion that has motivations that are for the sake of atheism. The problem is, atheism isn't a belief system so much as its a lack of a belief system, though, admittedly, there are militant atheists such as myself that seek to actively defend rational thought while criticizing the deluded.

I should think the reason behind the irrational application of "evil atheism" by the religiously deluded is simply because, on some level, they realize the illogical and unreasoned position they've chosen. Moreover, it is very clear that religion, unlike atheism, *is* organized with hierarchies that very often choose to kill and terrorize in the names of their gods. Hitler wasn't an atheist, and his actions were biblical in nature (genocide is a very Old Testament idea, after all -just read the book of Samuel). Other dictators and tyrants (Stalin, Pol Pot) were atheist, but only the seriously deluded would suggest that there actions were in the name of atheism or even because of atheism. The fact of the matter is, there are far more examples of religious nutters killing for their gods than there are atheists killing for [insert reason].

Finally, this thread is about the PBS documentary on atheism. Please, kindly, allow it to go back on topic.

Page 2, my links. These massacre's were not committed by atheists. In fact it's entirely inconclusive. Although there is more evidence saying that those massacre's were of religious origin.

It really does not matter. As I know of none of them that were based on those views. They were based on fascism. That is not atheism.

So, uh, guess what? It doesn't matter if he's a free-thinker. Stop with the pointing of the god damn fingers already.

I hear most al-Qaeda recruits are dissatisfied young men from secular families.

Guess that makes al-Qaeda a secular institution. Like Saddam's governance, mayhaps? :p

there's your belief system (theist = deluded) - unless of course you have peer reviewed empirical evidence that god doesn't exist .....

That's technically not true. Since there remains no evidence for a god, (even if there is a god), they are still deluded - they just got lucky. If a caveman strongly believed that Quark existed, he would still be delusional even as is turned out he had a flukey guess.

I hear most al-Qaeda recruits are dissatisfied young men from secular families.

Guess that makes al-Qaeda a secular institution. Like Saddam's governance, mayhaps? :p

pffft :rolleyes: keep calling the kettle black, no one is going to believe you.
al-qaeda secular?
those dissatisfied men still kill in the name of their religion.

they are the ones who've failed to be raised as secular individuals and have become radical and revolted against rationalism.

read about hitler's christianity here:
http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

that is a myth about hitler.
http://nobeliefs.com/hitler-myths.htm

the others you referred to earlier, pol pot, stalin, mao, killed in the name of communism, not atheism.
pol pot killed people he thought were "intellectuals".

"Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades.

It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history"

• Dinesh D'Souza is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution. His new book, "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11," will be published in January.

Now we all know where the quote came from.

Its equivalent to the ratio of atheists in the population.

Out of 10-14% atheists, how many would come to power? And out of those who come to power how many would be dictators? Out of those who are dictators, how many would kill for a perfect society? etc.

You have to use standard errors for a disproportionate sample, not a standard deviation and correct the model accordingly.:)

Time and again theists and supporters come up with ways to surprise me. How in the hell could you derive a pattern from statistics that have yet to happen? Therefore then your 100% sample is effectively zero.

Until statistics are shown, Dinesh's statement that you've quoted is crock.

I hear most al-Qaeda recruits are dissatisfied young men from secular families.

Guess that makes al-Qaeda a secular institution. Like Saddam's governance, mayhaps? :p

You heard this sam? From where? A line of gossipy housewives in burkas? Or you assume that "most" must be like the few profiled by the news networks?

Why don't you read a freaking history book and figure out when he started doing the Gods work? And why? :rolleyes:
I'm not sure what you are trying to imply here. Hitler was raised Christian, and even his earliest writing and speeches are full of religious rhetoric. He apparently thought he was doing god's work all along.

Oh btw can you explain why he imprisoned 12,000 German priests and killed over 7,000 of them, many more nuns and protestant pastors, banned listening radio in Germany Vatican under the threat of imprisonment, etc?
Since when have christians ever shown any reluctance toward mistreating or killing other christians?

Or explain this?

Hitler did make anti-Christian remarks, like his October 10, 1941 claim that "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (Adolph Hitler, "Table Talk," London, Weidenfelt & Nicholson, 1953)

Hmm?
There are a mountain of quotes from well-documented sources on Hitler, including transcripts of his numerous public speeches, his letters to friends, and even his own book Mein Kampf that all show him to be a christian with a religious hatred of Jews. But you choose to ignore all of those, and pull out a quote from "Table Talk," a second-hand source that few historians take seriously because most of the things in it contradict every other record regarding Hitler. Nice. Of course, if you want to ague that Hitler was an atheist, you would also need to contend with these quotes that come from the very same source as your quote:

An uneducated man, on the other hand, runs the risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the animal)... Table-Talk [p. 59]

As long as we're throwing Hitler quotes around, chew on these. Note that these are from primary sources.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognised these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognise more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice...and if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. "
Speech in Munich (12 April 1922)

I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work. Mein Kampf

Since when have christians ever shown any reluctance toward mistreating or killing other christians?

http://www.norelpref.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/god-v-satan.png

Man, I love that graph. But it's not true, as there are far more than 2 million dead due to God.

See: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html

Huhy,

Is this right?:bugeye:

LOOK at the dates on the images from the misleading site you linked to, the dates are long before the start of WW2. Pictures of a world leader, which Hitler was at the time, with the Pope was common, this was a photo op\formality.... ALL THE IMAGES DATE TO LONG BEFORE THE START OF WW2- I guarantee that ther third reich did not disclose their plans to the catholic church or anyone else for that matter.

Then you need to ask what political power the Catholic church had or even has now, do you think they had any input at all on WW2?

Also the Catholic church is based in ITALY, and Italy was never involved with any anti-Jewish Nazism. They did change sides didnt they?

Also the Catholic church is based in ITALY, and Italy was never involved with any anti-Jewish Nazism. They did change sides didnt they?

*************
M*W: I located the below-notated work of Joshua D. Zimmermann, Jews in Italy under Fascist and Nazi rule, 1922-1945, University of Cambridge Press, 2005. ISBN: 0521841011 9780521841016

A brief introduction is as follows:

"The Jews represent the only population which has never assimilated in Italy because it is made up of racial elements which are not European, differing absolutely from the elements that make up the Italians.

Until recently, the subject of Italian Jewry under Fascist rule received little attention in English-language Holocaust historiography. A combination of factors, including the size of the community and the relatively small number of victims--about 8 out of every 10 Italian Jews survived the war--partly accounted for this neglect in historical literature. With the third highest survival rate after Denmark and Bulgaria, a consensus emerged that Italian Fascist persecution of Jews was not only mild but that Mussolini, the Italian armed forces, Italian civilians, and many church officials consistently protected Jews throughout the war years. Many scholars do not dispute the fact that while Nazi Germany began its genocidal assault on European Jewry in June 1941, Fascist Italy, as long as it remained a sovereign state, became a haven of safety and security not only for Italian Jews but for thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution in both the peninsula as well as the Italian-occupied zones of France, Greece, and Croatia.

Yet when the Germans occupied Italy in September 1943 and placed Mussolini at the head of a puppet Fascist state known as the Republic of Salò, tragedy struck Italian Jewry. In collaboration with Mussolini’s republic, the Nazis implemented their Final Solution on Italian soil. Over the next 20 months, Italian and German authorities hunted down Jewish men, women, and children in German-occupied northern Italy, which led to the arrest of 8,529 Jews of whom an estimated 6,806 were deported to concentration and death camps.

Historians have not until recently drawn attention to the degree of Italian complicity in the implementation of Nazi Jewish policy on Italian soil. Rather, they highlighted the degree to which many officials of the Salò Republic, while outwardly and officially complying with Nazi demands, strove as much as possible to obstruct German roundup and deportation actions by warning Jewish communities in advance of impeding mass arrests. Thus, when comparing Italy with other European countries, historians of the Holocaust often characterized both the Italian government and the Italian people as shining examples of heroic resistance to Nazi barbarism.

The decidedly positive evaluation of Italy during the Holocaust was articulated at a 1986 conference in Boston dedicated to Italian rescue efforts during the Holocaust. One historian maintained, the Holocaust is to a considerable extent a study in the potentialities of human evil and inhumanity. However, within all the horror, there were still sparks of good and hope....Italy was one of these sparks which illuminated human good, compassion, and tolerance....While the evil [of the Holocaust] cannot be forgotten, its darkness all the more serves to contrast with the light of the Italian response."

Also the Catholic church is based in ITALY, and Italy was never involved with any anti-Jewish Nazism. They did change sides didnt they?

Again, all I can say to this is read a freakin' history book. The amount of nonsense being thrown around by the Christians in this thread is beyond belief. It's not like this is esoteric stuff - you should have learned all this is highschool history class.

I have come to two different sources, both people, claiming difference's on the Roman Catholic Church's involvement with Hitler in WW2. Before you tell me to go look it up myself, i tried, and the only stuff I got ... well... some sources contradicted each other. I have no idea which is right and I was hoping one of you very bright individuals could tell me? ;)
here
www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Again, all I can say to this is read a freakin' history book. The amount of nonsense being thrown around by the Christians in this thread is beyond belief. It's not like this is esoteric stuff - you should have learned all this is highschool history class.

what nonsense are you talking about?

what nonsense are you talking about?

Yes John, what nonsense ARE you talking about? :bugeye: :D :cool:

What happened to Mussolini Jeremy? people are lied to all the time, i really dont know what to tell you.

Apologies, but I should've made it clear: I was merely joking. given the context I apologize that I was not more clear that it was a joke. I've little else to say in this discussion other than my prior points, and an interesting history lesson.

So with that, I'll not clutter up this thread with more senseless jokes.

No problem.

what nonsense are you talking about?

I was referring to:

1) samcdkey's claims that Hitler was an atheist
2) Your claims that Italy wasn't involved in anti-Jewish Nazism