It appears to me, from reading the many posts on this site. That Christians and Islamics seem to use this site as a resource for attacking each others faith.

On one hand christians attack islamics for their "brutal" treatment of women, despite the fact the same problems are found in the west. Many christians brand all islamics as dangerous regilious fundamentalists, despite the fact that this is pure fiction.

From reading these posts I have drawn the following conclusions:

Members of a religion find it impossible to promote their religion without either trying to fault another religion to make their own seem more valid. Also the constant referral to ancient texts, that cannot be taken literally, seems to be a tool employed to promote ones religion.

In a perfect world full of open minds the greater solution to this conflict would be simple. If both the members of the Islamic faith and the Christian faith dropped the fables and the stories (Mohammad, Jesus etc...) surrounding the core values of their respective religions...then they would have very similar beliefs. Can Bible bashers and Quranic maniacs please refrain from telling me how bad I am and how much I will suffer for posting this!

interesting comment


if they would like to convince people they then should mention the good aspects of their own religion instead of making negative comments on others?

Except that nobody wants to be convinced to join a religion which is based on the ancient cultural aspect of fear (fear of the almighty god). Life used to be a great uncertainty with many (deadly) suprises. A culture based on fear of life was the logical result. I think we can see this reflected in christianity and islam.

However, nowadays nobody fears life anymore. They (religions) tried to subsitute fear with love for a while, but this message is not really getting through. There are other ways to obtain 'love' in modern society. A religion is not necessarily a requirement. Fear used to be much more powerful.

It's a recent development. We haven't had many Muslim advocates here before. And the acrimony at this site has not always been this pointless, direct, or -ist (racist, ethnicist, supremacist, &c.)

I have a feeling the problem will go away. The site is in a recovery period, with the moderators attempting to salvage what we posters have, in general, made a hideous wreck of. While the current level of faith-based hatred is relatively new, it will hopefully get swept to the side along with the rest of the trash.

If it gets real bad, though, remember that you have an "Ignore" button. I've had to use it before; it suddenly became very easy to follow topics once I accounted for a single problematic poster by ignoring him officially.

Enjoy your time here. Don't give anyone the satisfaction of taking that away from you.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Cheers for your comments:

I totally agree with you spuriousmonkey. I don't think convincing people to join a religion should be an issue. I think that if people have similar values and basic "good - bad" values they should be able to peacefully coexist without the need to declare a new religion, or conform to one already in place.

Can we not get along without everything having to be so defined? Nobody is ever going to give you the perfect spiritual path or answer....

Cheers,

Jus

Originally posted by jusmeig
Also the constant referral to ancient texts, that cannot be taken literally, seems to be a tool employed to promote ones religion.

In a perfect world full of open minds the greater solution to this conflict would be simple. If both the members of the Islamic faith and the Christian faith dropped the fables and the stories (Mohammad, Jesus etc...) surrounding the core values of their respective religions...then they would have very similar beliefs.

why cant they be taken literally? and the religions are based on these texts so when they are talking about their religion they need to use the texts!

in both religions the 'stories' of Mohammad and Jesus and that are not considered stories.........just because you dont believe them doesnt make them fake

Recently I had a conversation about whether the God of christians and muslims is the same God...........we came to the conclusion that it probably is! the real key to these religions is 'who is the messiah?' (the jews are included in that)

I have a feeling that we should all look up some Hindu philosophy sometime soon.

Hey Green, as for your attacks on Xtianity, get this.

"There is one God. Men call him by many names."

Humbling, eh?

If both the members of the Islamic faith and the Christian faith dropped the fables and the stories (Mohammad, Jesus etc...) surrounding the core values of their respective religions...then they would have very similar beliefs

it's the whole Us vs Them thing again. people generalize about other groups to the point of seeing them as a borg like mass. if one musilm is a terrorist then they all are. life is never that simple, but people like to think of it as that way. that's why post 9-11 there was all this anti-muslim backlash as if every muslim in the world was somehow "in on it".


putting another group down always make you feel better. it happens all the time in many different areas. people who do that all the time are just stupid and closed minded. :(

Originally posted by New Life
why cant they be taken literally?

because not a single historian would take any section literally from an historic text. The simple reason for this is that our culture evolves constantly. Any historic text therefore has to be interpreted according to the standards or way of thinking of that particular era.

spiff:
life is never that simple, but people like to think of it as that way. that's why post 9-11 there was all this anti-muslim backlash as if every muslim in the world was somehow "in on it".


that's true, but a large part of the muslim population didn't see anything wrong in the 9-11 attacks, even of those living in western countries. That's disturbing. I just wonder if there is some kind of religious reason for this, or is it just politics. If the reason is religious than the backlash might be warranted.

Hi,

I agree fully with spuriousmonkey. The validity of bible/quran stories is not a matter for disupute in this post. Regardless of their historical significance, or the fact that they did or did not happen......they are irrelevant.

If you want to believe that Samson had the strenght of 100 men, and David killed the GIANT Goliath, well then thats your perogative. I will not attack you for your beliefs. My point is that if you took away these stories, the views of Christianity and Islam are almost the same. So in my opinion if Christians attack Muslims and vice versa, they are attacking their own faith also, as there faith is fundamentally the same.

Jus

but they are NOT the same! The KEY to christianity is that Jesus is the messiah and he died for our sins! even if you took everything out of it and left just that then the two religions still are not the same!

I agree with you completely. I also commend you for being bold enough to say what obviously needs to be said.

Think of all the holidays we could have :D

New Life,

If you had bothered to read my post in full you would see that the difference between Christianity and Islam is not as big as members of these religions would tell you. (Like you)

My point is too remove Jesus, Mohammad, Saints, Prophets stories etc.....and sumerize each book as a set of rules. You will find that they are almost identicle. And this was my point in another post. That these religions are basically systems of moral control, they are not divine. Chrisitans and Islamics are brothers united under the same set of rules....you would think that they would be able to get along........

Jus

My point is too remove Jesus, Mohammad, Saints, Prophets stories etc.....and sumerize each book as a set of rules. You will find that they are almost identicle. And this was my point in another post. That these religions are basically systems of moral control, they are not divine. Chrisitans and Islamics are brothers united under the same set of rules....you would think that they would be able to get along........

well said jus... :)

but they are NOT the same!

new life... do christians recognize that islam is a religion first of all? just curious... i know that muslims do recognize xtianity...

also, jus was talkin bout moral rules advocated in both religions.. now why are they there? why would god give us all this stuff and then tell us not to indulge in them? i think this question is more appropriate to muslims cuz in xtianity ur allowed to drink... but if you have anythin to say about it, id like to hear it... why are there religious laws prohibitin consumption of alcohol, drugs and the bonds of chastity? wouldn't it be better if god didn't make it in the first place and not makin it an issue later... its like showin a lollypop to a kid and then takin it away... sorry, can't have it..

p.s. this reminds of the al pacino monologue in devil's advocate.. :D

Hi,

To any christians or muslims out there my question is simple if somebody came to you today and told you there was a man called Jimmy going around healing people by touching their eyes and curing lepracy with the touch of a hand, don't tell me you wouldn't laugh it off as being some less than credible faith healer.

People of the times where religions came to fruition where promised a better life under these religions and at the time anything would be better than the lives they where currently leading. So it would make perfect sense that they would follow like sheep.

The difference between people in contemporary society and the people of times past is that we have the freedom to choose differently, have our own views and express them through media such as this forum.

That is a great thing and should not be undervalued and it saddens me slightly that with so much freedom at our disposal and the ability to speak our minds so easily, people still bring religious differences into it.

Originally posted by jusmeig
New Life,

If you had bothered to read my post in full you would see that the difference between Christianity and Islam is not as big as members of these religions would tell you. (Like you)

My point is too remove Jesus, Mohammad, Saints, Prophets stories etc.....and sumerize each book as a set of rules. You will find that they are almost identicle. And this was my point in another post. That these religions are basically systems of moral control, they are not divine. Chrisitans and Islamics are brothers united under the same set of rules....you would think that they would be able to get along........

Jus

Jus, I did read your post in full and i still dont agree that they are basically the same.......first because you simply cannot take the people out because the religions are based on these people and to take them out would take away the religion........and second as far as morals go there are still differences, such as how women are treated....

since i seem to be missing your point please explain to me what you mean, using examples of what is the same in the morals.


---new life... do christians recognize that islam is a religion first of all? just curious... i know that muslims do recognize xtianity... ---

yes, christians recognize that there are other religions in the world and islam is a major one.

---also, jus was talkin bout moral rules advocated in both religions.. now why are they there? why would god give us all this stuff and then tell us not to indulge in them?---

what stuff do you mean exactly? if you mean sex, God gave it as a gift to married people so we are allowed ot indulge it, in fact it is encouraged, so long as it is within a marriage (i think i said this in another thread too)


--- i think this question is more appropriate to muslims cuz in xtianity ur allowed to drink... but if you have anythin to say about it, id like to hear it... why are there religious laws prohibitin consumption of alcohol, drugs and the bonds of chastity?----

well we are allowed to drink occassionally, the key is not to be gluttons/drunkards.....one or two drinks is ok (somewhere early in the gosples there is a convo with a king about how a leader should act that includes something to the effect of 'let the drink their wine, you are called to a higher standard' so you could say that those who are not in leadership positions are allowed to have a few and those who are leaders shouldnt b/c they are role models.......drugs are prohibited b/c they are mind altering substances that are not healthy for your body (and the body is supposed to be a temple to the living God)......and chastity is to keep you pure and honouring to yourself, your prospective spouse, and your god, as well as to keep you outta trouble


---wouldn't it be better if god didn't make it in the first place and not makin it an issue later... its like showin a lollypop to a kid and then takin it away... sorry, can't have it..----

God didnt make it an issue, we (as a people) did......when adam and eve took the apple from the snake they introduced sin into the world and suddenly got the idea that maybe sex isnt good at all (which is not right, its good in marriage), the original sin is what made most of this stuff an issue, not God, he meant it as a gift

Hi NewLife,

I will have a go again at explaining myself:

Basically I would argue that religions are not founded on the stories of the prophets, Saints etc.... These tools were employed as a delivery method. Names, places and events were used to deliver messages. Such as:

The 10 commandments. If a member of christianity wants to believe that Moses brougth the tablets down from a mountain....then so be it. All the information contained on the tablets was already well known in Rome 1000 years before.

In Roman culture there was a republic based on rules and similar values..ie Do not murder, do not sleep with your neighbours wife etc....I assure Christianity and Islam have similar rules and values, therefore how can it be divine if it was known 1000 years before.....thought to the Romans by their own gods. Can you see were I am comming from?

Therefore my point is this, the information is not divine. It is by no means divine. The information recieved helps people co-exist peacefully. Islamics live in peace with each other, as do Christians (Usually). The fundamental beliefs they have, which is known as their divine religion...are facts discovered over 3000 years ago. Not by Jesus, god, Budda, Alla or any other such being. They were discovered by man.

Jusmeig. The Mosaic laws preceded Roman law. I post a reference here for interest.(The law museum (http://www.duhaime.org/Law_museum/hist.htm))

1300 BC: The Ten Commandments
According to the Bible, it was in approximately 1300 BC that Moses received a list of ten laws directly from God. These laws were known as the Ten Commandments and were transcribed as part of the Book of Moses, which later became part of the Bible. Many of the Ten Commandments continue in the form of modern laws such as "thou shalt not kill" (modern society severely punishes the crime of murder), "thou shalt not commit adultery" (modern society allows a divorce on this grounds) and "thou shalt not steal" (modern society punishes theft as a crime). The Bible chapter that contains the Ten Commandments (Exodus) follows the recitation of the Commandments with a complete set of legal rules, which are based on the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" legal philosophy of Hammurabi's Code.

450 BC: The Twelve Tables
Ten Roman men were given wide powers to write the laws that were to govern Romans. They came up with ten laws to which two were later added. These laws are considered to form the foundation of all modern public and private law. They promoted the organization of public prosecution of crimes and instituted a system whereby injured parties could seek compensation from their aggressors. More importantly, they protected the lower class (plebes) from the legal abuses of the ruling class (the patricians) especially in the enforcement of debts. From that point on, a basic principle of Roman law is that the law must be written and justice cannot be left in the hands of judges alone to interpret. It also prohibited inter-class marriages, seriously punished theft and gave fathers rights of life or death over his sons. The Twelve Tables also punished the misuse of magic! Written on wood and bronze tablets, the Twelve Tables survived almost 1000 years until destroyed by invading gauls in 390.


Roman laws weren't thought of as "divine". However, it is not necessary to prove or disprove its "divine origins". It is more important to know which laws that are in full accordance to God's will, and practice them. Islam's laws are similar because they also accept the Ten Commandments.

Hi Jenyar,

You are completely incorrect. Rome was founded around 2000bc. About 700 years b4 the Moses fable. The reason we know this is because if you carbon date the ruins under Rome, you will find that they are from around 2000bc.

Can you tell me how old Moses house is?

The Roman republic was then set up shortly after this. In order for a republic to function, it must abide by certain rules. ie

Do not run around killing at random
do not rape or steal etc.....

What is you answer to that. And should you try to say I am lying Let take the Egyptian example: The first Egyptian dynasty reigned from 3000bc to around 2800bc. This is 1000 years b4 Moses. And yes they lived by the rules above. These rules were given to them by their Gods.

you see Jenyar, You should really be worshipping Amon Ra and Seth, as they gave the Egyptians divine knowledge 1000 years B4 Moses was invented. I allow you to retort! :)

New Life

what stuff do you mean exactly? if you mean sex, God gave it as a gift to married people so we are allowed ot indulge it, in fact it is encouraged, so long as it is within a marriage (i think i said this in another thread too)

why? why not outside marriage?

drugs are prohibited b/c they are mind altering substances that are not healthy for your body (and the body is supposed to be a temple to the living God)

how is the body a temple to god?

and chastity is to keep you pure and honouring to yourself, your prospective spouse, and your god, as well as to keep you outta trouble

i think this one takes you back to the first question i asked..

when adam and eve took the apple from the snake they introduced sin

who put the apple there?

jus... i found this info on a different thread in this forum... it explains some of what you were sayin in your last post... this is mainly for jenyar and new life... check it out.. id post a link to this thread but LIGHTBEING has a ton of posts in it and id have to direct you to a particular post.. instead, its copy and paste :D
this is thanks to LIGHTBEING..

Haru “Horus” is symbolic of the Rising Son. Jesus is also symbolic of the rising son. Jesus was the son (sun) who died (set) on the cross by crucifixion and he will resurrect (rise) according to the Christians. When the son came down and apparently sets or dies into the darkness and he raises or resurrects back to life. It is the story of the Christian’s God Jesus.

What religious fanatics don’t realize is that if the sun shuts down that would be the end of life as you know it. This is what Egipt teaches about the sun: If I say I worship the sun, people say oh that’s sun worship. I know that. The reason why I say worship the sun, s-u-n and laugh at you who worship the son, s-o-n is because my sun is an obvious provider. If my sun doesn’t come up in the morning, we can chalk it. Jesus (the son) went to sleep 2,000 years ago, has not gotten up yet, and you all are still doing fine. Yet you are still waiting for your son to rise. If my sun doesn’t rise each day, it’s over for Jesus and you. Now with this reasoning, I can live without your son. Can you live without your son? Can you live without my sun? The answer is simply NO.

If you look throughout Egyptian history, you see that many of the characteristics of Horus existed long before 2,000 years ago, and parallels that of Jesus of 2,000 years ago. For instance it is said:


Jesus performed the miracle of turning five loaves of bread in one case and seven in another to feed the many multitudes of people.
to
This ties in with Horus who makes seven loaves of bread for Osiris to live by.

Yashua is in the desert and being tempted by the Devil, who said to him, “If he was the son of God, turn a stone into bread.”
to
The stone of the desert is symbolic of Set.

As the child Horus comes to the Earth, then enters matter or becomes flesh. He is born as the word of his father who becomes Seb, who consort is Nu whose other name is Meri.
to
Which is the same as Jesus coming down to Earth as the word of God in the flesh having and adopted father of Joseph (Seb) and Mary his mother.

Jesus said “I and the father are one. He that seeth me, seeth him that sent me.”
to
Horus is the father seen in the son.

Jesus claims to be the son in whom the father is revealed.
to
Horus was the light of the world. The light that is represented by the symbolic eye. The son of salvation.

Yashua is called the ‘Good Sheperd’ with the lamb or kid on his shoulder.
to
Horus was the good shepherd who carries the crook upon his shoulder.

Jesus is called the Lamb of God, the bread of life, the truth and the light.
to
Horus is called the Lamb of God, the bread of life, the truth and the light.

Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.
to
Horus is was baptized by Anupp the Baptizer.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the ‘House of Bread.’
to
Horus was born in Annu, the ‘Place of Bread.’

Jesus the Christ.
to
Horus the Krist.

The star in the east that indicated the birthplace of Jesus.
to
The star, as announcer of the child Horus.

The blind man given sight by Jesus.
to
The blind mummy made to see by Horus.

Jesus walking on water.
to
Horus walking on water.

THE LIST GOES ON AND ON. This is just to give you clear overstanding that the Jesus of your bible came from the Egyptian diety of Horus, and Christianity came from the various stories from Egypt. The story was just reiterated as most stories in your bible are. They are stories from old tablets such as the Enuma Elish, and the Giglamesh Epic. The names were just changed, in different cultures. In fact, the names of the bible aren’t even names, they are titles. For example the story of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar in the bible is just the story of ANU, Antum, and Iyd in the Enuma Elish. The story of Cain and Abel in the bible is just the story of Osiris and Set in the Egyptian records.

source: The Body Parts Of God
by Kayti - Sent Hotep known as Shandra Stubbs
student of Egipt


The name Horus is mentioned in the Bible. If you look in Matthew 4:3 where you find the statement “the Son [huios] of God [theos]” referring to Jesus, in the Greek language, you will see Huios Theos. It is not that it is not there. It is just for those who will take the time to research and find it because they want the facts. The Greek word Huios is from the Egyptian word Horus or Haru.

Source: Jesus Found In Egipt


Probably the most obvious is the story of Osiris, Isis, Horus and Set, or at least their final positions, along with some of the surrounding icons. I will not repeat the story itself, but in the end, Osiris becomes the god of the heavens while Set is outcast as the evil lord of the underworld. Isis is the mother of Horus, who in tern becomes a living god in the form of the pharaoh. The associations of Osiris and the Christian supreme being, Isis as the Mother Mary Horus as Jesus and Set as the devil are obvious, and ancient icons depict Isis suckling Horus almost exactly as Mary would later be shown suckling the baby Jesus.


One of the main reasons why I don't believe in Christianity is because they stole ideas and stories from earlier religions and civilizations.

Originally posted by jusmeig
Hi NewLife,

I will have a go again at explaining myself:

Basically I would argue that religions are not founded on the stories of the prophets, Saints etc.... These tools were employed as a delivery method. Names, places and events were used to deliver messages. Such as:

The 10 commandments. If a member of christianity wants to believe that Moses brougth the tablets down from a mountain....then so be it. All the information contained on the tablets was already well known in Rome 1000 years before.

In Roman culture there was a republic based on rules and similar values..ie Do not murder, do not sleep with your neighbours wife etc....I assure Christianity and Islam have similar rules and values, therefore how can it be divine if it was known 1000 years before.....thought to the Romans by their own gods. Can you see were I am comming from?

Therefore my point is this, the information is not divine. It is by no means divine. The information recieved helps people co-exist peacefully. Islamics live in peace with each other, as do Christians (Usually). The fundamental beliefs they have, which is known as their divine religion...are facts discovered over 3000 years ago. Not by Jesus, god, Budda, Alla or any other such being. They were discovered by man.

in regards to where these laws (that are universal to every culture) came from, it is my belief that when God created us He instilled these 'morals' (for lack of a better word) into us, naturally when we started making laws we got them from this inherint sense of right and wrong


New Life



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what stuff do you mean exactly? if you mean sex, God gave it as a gift to married people so we are allowed ot indulge it, in fact it is encouraged, so long as it is within a marriage (i think i said this in another thread too)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



why? why not outside marriage?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
drugs are prohibited b/c they are mind altering substances that are not healthy for your body (and the body is supposed to be a temple to the living God)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



how is the body a temple to god?

*as i understand it, it is b/c He created you so your body and the simple fact that you have life are displays of Gods power and when you become a christian you become 'His child' and 'your body is no longer your own' it is Gods so you need to treat it with respect......also christians are not to be of this world (we're on VISA's here, visting) and so we're kinda renting our bodies till we go home (like a car)


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and chastity is to keep you pure and honouring to yourself, your prospective spouse, and your god, as well as to keep you outta trouble
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



i think this one takes you back to the first question i asked..

*yes


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when adam and eve took the apple from the snake they introduced sin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



who put the apple there?

*God........i believe that everything needs balance and the apple was the balance to His paradise

sycoindian,

Thank you for that excellent post. If that does not make people question the very foundations of religion then nothing wil. I had no idea at all that Egyptian religion was so strikingly similar to Christian/Muslim belief......makes you wonder.

To New Life,

I am going to rap this up, as it appears we have hit an empass. You believe in Jesus as god or our lord etc... I believe that no man or religion can possibly hope to explain who "god" is. I believe that something started it all off, but I know that we will probably never know!

But the point still stands, and many new ones have opened up.....so heres a few to get you all thinking.

I saw this on another post: The beliefs of a religion tend to coincide with the beliefs of its followers. (ie God wants us to invade this country and do what is "right"). Therefore religion can be viewed as dynamic, constantly changing to suit the needs of its followers.

The gods of every religion did not give there followers the great insight of common simple law.......People worked this out themselves. Did god send man to the moon. No, people did. This is the main point I want to stress.

NO RELIGION HAS A PERFECT ANSWER TO THE HUMAN CONDITION, BECAUSE EVERY RELIGION CAN BE EASILY DECONSTRUCTED AS SHOWN ABOVE.

Then why do we have Christianity all over the world, and Egyptian deities such as Horus aren't even worshipped in Egypt anymore? The similarities are interesting, but if they predate Christianity they seem to predict Jesus' life rather than invalidate it - Christianity grew from followers of Jesus, Jews who had Moses and Egypt fresh in their memories. The Israelites who worked as slaves in Egypt for hundreds of years must have had knowledge of the Egyptian gods.

Remember that Moses was also thought to be a god by the Egyptians. Why did he disown his Egyptian upbringing, sided with the slaves, and write down the ten commandments?

jusmeig,

The God of the Bible has His own will and plans. Very frequently His own people did not do what He wanted them to. Therefore your "deconstruction" doesn't hold. The Israelites, Jews and Christians do not serve a God who submits to them, but a God who want them to submit to Him in certain ways. In the Old Testament His people had to fight agsint invading armies and defend themselves, much like America is fighting against terrorism now. Are you saying that if God existed, no wars would have been fought, and we wouldn't have been able to go to the moon? Maybe then those seven astronauts wouldn't have died. Did God send them to the moon? No people did. Why then did they die? You can't blame God and religion for everything that goes wrong or that is unanswerable anymore - those days are over. Now you have to start looking at what happens in the world and ask yourself whether we do not, after all, need salvation from our "human condition".

God created both the sun and the moon. Whether you fly up to them, worship them or merely look at them through telescopes is your own business.

Happy deconstructing.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Then why do we have Christianity all over the world, and Egyptian deities such as Horus aren't even worshipped in Egypt anymore? Constantine?

Originally posted by Jenyar
In the Old Testament His people had to fight agsint invading armies and defend themselves, much like America is fighting against terrorism now. Actually, I think that the story has them pilfering the Egyptians, and then wandering around the area smiting whoever got in their way.

Originally posted by jusmeig
To New Life,

I am going to rap this up, as it appears we have hit an empass. You believe in Jesus as god or our lord etc... I believe that no man or religion can possibly hope to explain who "god" is. I believe that something started it all off, but I know that we will probably never know!

But the point still stands, and many new ones have opened up.....so heres a few to get you all thinking.

I saw this on another post: The beliefs of a religion tend to coincide with the beliefs of its followers. (ie God wants us to invade this country and do what is "right"). Therefore religion can be viewed as dynamic, constantly changing to suit the needs of its followers.

The gods of every religion did not give there followers the great insight of common simple law.......People worked this out themselves. Did god send man to the moon. No, people did. This is the main point I want to stress.

NO RELIGION HAS A PERFECT ANSWER TO THE HUMAN CONDITION, BECAUSE EVERY RELIGION CAN BE EASILY DECONSTRUCTED AS SHOWN ABOVE. [/B]

I agree to disagree with you, however I must comment on your points here....

first, if I think God wants me to go somewhere and do something, that is not a belief of my religion, that is a belief of myself... a belief of my religion would be that Jesus died and rose again......and often times there is something we want to do that isnt 'right' but we justify doing it by saying God wants us to so just b/c someone says they are doing something b/c God wants them to doesnt make it so......especially if it is 'wrong'


second you are correct that no religion has a PERFECT answer, however some are on the right track and just because we (as humans) cannot understand everything doesnt make it false or deconstuctable!

Firstly, I believe Sciforums to be an excellent service. However I would like to see a forum where members of a religion do not refer to ancient, unprovable, irrelevant texts.

Can we all agree on just one point. The bible and the Koran were written a very long time ago. They were written based on apparent eye withness accounts.

Can we all agree as one that man wrote these books, hence the reason they are in material form?

Can we all agree that man is falliable?

Can we therefore conclude that the bible/koran were written by beings that make mistakes, have a tendency to drastically overexagerate and bend truths to suit there own needs?

HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE VICTOR MY FRIENDS. THE STORIES UNDERLYING YOUR religions ARE DRASTICALLY PREVERTED VERSIONS OF THE ORIGINALS. NO PERSON SHOULD DEBATE THIS AS WE HAVE ALL PLAYED CHINESE WISHPERS!

People need to see religion for what it is. A set of guidelines so we can live in peace and avoid conflict. This is not divine.....IT IS COMMON SENSE!

Originally posted by jusmeig
It appears to me, from reading the many posts on this site. That Christians and Islamics seem to use this site as a resource for attacking each others faith.......please refrain from telling me how bad I am and how much I will suffer for posting this! If we were to discuss the good side of each religion, there would be no much of controversy since we will find that there are lots and lots of parallels. Advocacy for love, respect, do not commit murder, do not steal, etc, etc. In fact, on the good side, any religion will do.
The controversy starts when an individual whats to translate his faith in his own terms, avoid and ignore facts, as shameful as they may be or to pretend that one religion is better or above the rest.
….That’s when we begging to have controversy. There’s no winning battle in religion, religion followers and practitioners have committed barbarities and all sorts of abuses for many hundred years, all against the same laws of own religions.
:m:

Justmeig

The manuscripts we use today ARE the originals insofar as they haven't been changed since they were first accepted by the church. The emphasis is on the message and meaning of Christ's life, death and resurrection. No amount of spelling, grammar or textual differences could change this message - or it's application to your life. The different gospels in the Bible are different applications of the same message.

Galatians 1:6-10 (NASB)

1.I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
2.which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
3.But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
4.As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
5.For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

The message was sacred to everybody involved. It would not be changed to follow individual agendas, and there were many safeguards to prevent this from happening. To strengthen the case: The Scrolls found at Qumran were in agreement with the texts already in use. Mere coincidence?

I won't go further into the writing and copying of manuscripts. There are about 24 000 manuscripts to compare, and if you are worried about canonization - the protestant selection is the most conservative one, i.e. you have less chance of missing the point.

If you are interested in the integrity of the Bible, you can go here for an introduction: http://www.gospeloutreach.net/bible.html

Originally posted by Jenyar

The manuscripts we use today ARE the originals insofar as they haven't been changed since they were first accepted by the church. Two quick points: All you've said is that, after 3 centuries if internal clique fights and purges, after 3 centuries of interpretation, harmonization, interpolation, and redaction, the church victors finally settled on a party line. Unfortunately, even this underwhelming assertion is inaccurate. Is your bible based on the Septuagint, the Peshitta, one of the variants of the Massoretic text, or perhaps one of the Targums? Is its New Testament simply a translation of the Codex Vaticanus or Codex Sinaiticus, or does it include later additions/modification?I suggest that you curl up with your favorite copy of the Sophia of Jesus Christ or the Gospel of Mary, and ponder what your Christology would look like if one of those early votes or purges had turned out differently. You might then give some thought to 1 John 5:7-8: Before toV pneu'ma kaiV toV u{dwr kaiV toV ai|ma, the Textus Receptus reads ejn tw'/ oujranw'/, oJ pathvr, oJ lovgo", kaiV toV a{gion pneu'ma, kaiV ou|toi oiJ trei'" e{n eijsi. 5:8 kaiV trei'" eijsin oiJ marturou'nte" ejn th'/ gh'/ (“in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that testify on earth”). This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation.

However, the evidence—both external and internal—is decidedly against its authenticity.

- see Comma Johanneum (http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/1john5-7.htm) - emphasis added

Aah... What could have been - but is not. Why didn't those votes turn out differently? Questioning John 1:1 does not change what the other scriptures say:

Numbers 11:17
I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit that is on you and put the Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so that you will not have to carry it alone.

Numbers 24:2
When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him ...

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
...
15 I, even I, have spoken;
yes, I have called him.
I will bring him,
and he will succeed in his mission.
16 Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[ 8:15 Or adoption] And by him we cry, "Abba,[ 8:15 Aramaic for Father] Father."

Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

Acts 2
32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."


Rev.1
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the sevenfold Spirit 5 before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
6To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
...
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Jesus Himself said:
Mark 12:29
"The most important one [commandment]," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

but Jesus' life was through the Spirit, who was his Father:
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Aah... What could have been - but is not. Why didn't those votes turn out differently? Questioning John 1:1 does not change what the other scriptures say:

Numbers 11:17
I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the ........bla......bla......bla......bla.....en knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

was there a point to this or do you get paid 10 cents for every bible quote you post?

Originally posted by Jenyar
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
You apparently believe that if you splatter your post with snippits of speculation and fiction no one will notice that you've changed the subject. As you wish, but at least be thorough. For example:
Mt 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and: Mt 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. Mt 15:22-24
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." Acts 16:6
Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. BTW, I noticed that you offered no quotes from the Sophia of Jesus Christ or the Gospel of Mary. Too bad ...

Changed the subject? From what? You quoted the comma Johanneum as if it represented the whole Bible. In your context I understood it to be an attack on the dogma of the Trinity, and I showed you where we got it from - and not only from the NT.

I do not own or read the Sophia of Jesus Christ or the Gospel of Mary any more than I read the Gnostic gospels of Nag Hammadi. They are not the Word of God as it came out of Jesus mouth. They might be about Jesus and Mary, but they weren't included in the canon for a reason.

By the way: your last three quotes states the authority God has over the preaching of His message - and that people didn't go out willy-nilly and interpreted His words as they saw fit. They were directed.

Acts 19:10
This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.
Acts 19:26
And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man_made gods are no gods at all.

After the Jews wanted Paul killed, he went on and told them his mission:
21"Then the Lord said to me, 'Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'

Hi,

Just a few points. Putting up huge bible or Koran quotes is a cop out. This is the reason why. Firstly you are not viewing them objectivly, as they are usually the texts of your religion of choice. Secondly, they are over 1000 years old, and have changed since they were written.

To Jenyar,

You are not reading my post correctly. In it I clearly state that the teachings of Christ are good. They teach us basic right wrong values which is a "good" thing. I question Jesus and Moses and all the other names you have fired at me. I believe them to to fictional creations used to deliver these messages. I believe the texts are not divine. Just well written. My belief does not change the meaning at all, I am simply saying that the words are of man and not a divine gOd. There is nothing in any holy book that is not the creation of man. What is more, there is nobody that can prove it otherwise.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE refrain from quoting large bodies of biblical text etc.... As I basically skip it to read your conclusions. IF you need to justify your faith by using 2000 year old books then I think you need to look inside yourself for some answers. I am not attacking your religion Jenyar, I am just presenting it and all other religions in a different context, there is nt right or wrong here....so stop bible bashing me!

Jus

I second that completly!:m:

Originally posted by Jenyar
Changed the subject? From what? You quoted the comma Johanneum as if it represented the whole Bible. In your context I understood it to be an attack on the dogma of the Trinity, and I showed you where we got it from - and not only from the NT. I could care less how you derive your polytheism. I was explicitly responding to your claim: "The manuscripts we use today ARE the originals insofar as they haven't been changed since they were first accepted by the church. " The claim is absurd. You simply haven't a clue what your talking about.
Originally posted by Jenyar
I do not own or read the Sophia of Jesus Christ or the Gospel of Mary any more than I read the Gnostic gospels of Nag Hammadi. They are not the Word of God as it came out of Jesus mouth. You have zero evidence as to what, if anything, "came out of Jesus mouth". What you have is heavily edited 3rd hand hearsay at best, and sloppy fiction at worst. Remember that wonderful admonition in John about casting the first stone? In the earliest extant Bibles, the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, it is nowhere to be found.
Originally posted by Jenyar
They might be about Jesus and Mary, but they weren't included in the canon for a reason. No doubt. :rolleyes:

Aburd why? Show me what evidence you have that they have changed significantly in content or message since they were first introduced? You gave me one quote - one - questioning the authenticity of one verse. I'm not stupid. I know your eventual aim is to question the authenticity of a god, or The God, based on the scripture we follow. Bad news. My belief is not dependent on the Bible, but it confirms it. It is the root that grew from the seed of truth God planted, Jesus watered, and all Christians since have believed. I cannot tell you what I believe without the Bible, because everything I believe is in the Bible. I believe in God, His creation and His plan for salvation.

Polytheism means 'more than one god'. There is only One God. The God of Adam, Abraham and Jesus. Therefore I am a monotheist.

As for casting the first stone... I presume you don't want me to quote other verses from the Bible confirming that message?

maybe these two lovebirds should get their own thread

LOL!

Hi again,

Yes I think Jenyar and ConsequentAtheist should fight it out gladiator style. However I must stress that objective discussion is not possible with a member of a religion. Every post in the religious forum proves it.

If I was a Christian or a Muslim, and needed to put a point across, I could just paste a load of texts proving excatly what I was saying. The problem is you believe this text to be true. (ie you believe in literal translations).

Need I say more, debate not argue. Huge columns of text are not going to do....

Jus

yeh.. i think we've hit rock bottom with this thread..

Well, this was a thread about religion. If it was about science, would you have something against someone who quotes lots of equations to demonstrate his view?

I know I quote a lot, and it isn't meant to prove itself true. But if I defend a religious view or dogma I have to provide proof from the religion in question. Such as when I am accused of being a polytheist when it isn't true, or when I have to correct misconceptions. This thread wasn't about wether God exists or doesn't.

QED?

Jus postulated that both islam and christianity are the same in their core.
Therefore he basically suggested l to take away the details and just look at the essence. A single line in the bible or koran might be considered to be a detail and quoting details to show the core essence might not be what he is looking for.

Hi again,

I thought we had stuck a knife in this post. But sure what the hell:
The post originally stated that the core values of Islam and Christianity are almost identicle. I did this to attempt to show people that the details held within the Koran and the Bible are the same. It is not divine information, but just different sets of rules to live and die by.

As regards the books themselves, I would place The Lord of the Rings as having more spiritual significance for me than these books. At least Tolkien was alive in our life time! I was simply stating: Just because it says in the bible/koran that a certain thing is correct, or happened....does not mean that it DID happen, regardless of your belief. Many of the historical events in these books are not possible, however this is not in dispute in this post. My idea was to strip away the names, places and dates....and you are left with a very similar set of rules at the core of every religion. Let the fables be fables. They are not divine, do not live your life in fear of something that will not reveal itself until you die...this makes no sense!

Jus

You cannot reduce something as complex as the Bible or Koran into a rule-of-the-thumb handbook and say they are the same... then yes, Lord of the Rings might teach the same morals. Tolkien was a Catholic, remember?

When someone can rescue you from drowning, do you fear or love them?

maybe LOTR will grow into a religious text. It already has cult status. Soon the geek boys will turn it into a bible.

Jenyar,

I understand that this is getting off the point a bit, and may infuriate the bible bashers but what the hell........

Explain to me why the Bible or Koran are any more complex than The Lord of the Rings, bearing in mind of course that the bible and koran are based on some histrical evidence that can be proven?

Had the Lord of the Rings been written 1000 years b4 the bible and koran, would the texts within be seen as divine, as it teaches the core moral values that the bible would later teach, and pass over as the word of gOd?

Humans had learned the values thought in the bible and koran 1000's of years before their conception! AM I THE ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET THAT SEES THIS! If you remove the moral teaching of a religion, what is left? NOTHING, but a collection of fables, names and dates that have absolutly no significance or divine influnece!

Originally posted by jusmeig

As regards the books themselves, I would place The Lord of the Rings as having more spiritual significance for me than these books.

To make an inane argument like, it's pretty obvious that you haven't read 'The Silmarillian'. :)

Originally posted by jusmeig


In a perfect world full of open minds the greater solution to this conflict would be simple. If both the members of the Islamic faith and the Christian faith dropped the fables and the stories (Mohammad, Jesus etc...) surrounding the core values of their respective religions...then they would have very similar beliefs. Can Bible bashers and Quranic maniacs please refrain from telling me how bad I am and how much I will suffer for posting this!
Christianity and Islam could never join and we will never have a perfect world. But we could have a more peaceful world without religion.

Originally posted by Vienna
Christianity and Islam could never join and we will never have a perfect world. But we could have a more peaceful world without religion. Bullsh#t. The people who are currently using religion as an excuse to wage war would make a religion out of politics, or soccer, or the length of womens skirts and go to war over that.

Originally posted by Turduckin
Bullsh#t. The people who are currently using religion as an excuse to wage war would make a religion out of politics, or soccer, or the length of womens skirts and go to war over that.


it is easier to start a war over religion than over the length of womens skirts (which is usually religion based).

Lord of the Rings pays homeage to Christian principles. The use of magic is underemphasized in preference to bravery and perseverance, for example.

Apart from that, there is the criteria of whether the book itself claims divine inspiration and purpose, and whether its principles make a difference when applied. Not everybody gets the chance to defend Helm's Deep or Gondor, but wearing God's armour as described in Eph.6 is possible for everybody.

it is easier to start a war over religion than over the length of womens skirts (which is usually religion based).

And why should that be? Are you saying wars are always mindless and started by gullible idiots? If my memory of history is correct, the contrary is more true: the religion always came after the backstabbing, warmongering and political agendas of influential people - as a sort of last-ditch validation. It might be because religious thinking is more common durng periods of fear and adversity, when the non-political everyman struggles to understand the undeserved turmoil he is thown in - such as after 9/11. That is when you get the conspiracy theories and supersticious explanations. It's always war first, God second.

It's not religion that makes war prevalent, it's the law of thelema, the antchrist mentality - hate.

Originally posted by Jenyar


It's not religion that makes war prevalent, it's the law of thelema, the antchrist mentality - hate.

crusades anyone?

Oh come on. Is that the best you can do? That ace has a faded face and folded corners... Rather use the salem witch trials next time as your grounds for blaming all wars on religion. You know what? Without politics, there would be no wars either. Without money or power or territory there would be no wars. Without people there would be no wars.

Let's move on for once. I'm sure we can at least agree on the qualities and actions that cause and accompany war (or any aggressive-destructive behaviour for that matter).

The crusades. Please.

Originally posted by Turduckin
Bullsh#t. The people who are currently using religion as an excuse to wage war would make a religion out of politics, or soccer, or the length of womens skirts and go to war over that.
Turduckin, it is you who speaks bullsh*t, Lets look at the Islam Book shall we.

The Qur'an tells Muslims: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (5:51), "kill the disbelievers wherever they find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (9:5). The Qur'an demands that you fight the unbelievers, and promises "If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them" (8:65).

Very nice, eh?

Originally posted by Jenyar
It's not religion that makes war prevalent, it's the law of thelema, the antchrist mentality - hate.
Christianity is contradictive, hypocritical and very influential. Christianity and Islam are all about power, they strive to capture the minds of people and to control them, and to wipe out the unbelievers of their "God", either by conversion or physically.

Religion is the scourge of civilisation today and it is a tool for war.

Oh surprise surprise, I’ve just heard on the news that Islamic suicide bombers are to hit the UK soon.

Religion is evil itself. The world would be a better place without it.

BTW Jenyar, don't play down the crusades, they were evil. Don't you dare glorify or condone them.

Hi all,

It appears once again that one of my posts is degrading into the old Islam vs Christianity battle, despite the fact I stated at the top that I do not welcome blind believers of a religion, as they cannot argue objectivly.

Turduckin, I have read the 'The Silmarillian'. I read it years before I read the bible. And I found it to be a more coherent read....which says alot.

Vienna, your views are remarkably short sighted. Of course Christianity and Islam will join together. This will occur when we find life on another planet. To believe we are the only beings in our universe is perverse ignorance of the highest order! Both Christianity and Islam have no fail safe written into their texts to account for such an occurance, and with frozen water found on Mars....I would be holding my breath if I was a man of religion.

Can anyone tell me why the most constructive coherent conversation on this website is generated mainly by agnostics and atheists. Well I would argue that people blinded and submerged in their "faith" do not have the ability to view other religions, and therfore other cultures, objectivly.....This is very sad indeed. If this is the result of religion I think you believers should question your faith in a serious way!!!!

Jus

Originally posted by Jenyar
Oh come on. Is that the best you can do? That ace has a faded face and folded corners... Rather use the salem witch trials next time as your grounds for blaming all wars on religion. You know what? Without politics, there would be no wars either. Without money or power or territory there would be no wars. Without people there would be no wars.

Let's move on for once. I'm sure we can at least agree on the qualities and actions that cause and accompany war (or any aggressive-destructive behaviour for that matter).

The crusades. Please.

are you saying wars are not fought based on religion? are you saying people do not hate each other based on religion?

Northern Ireland anyone? Is that too faded also?
the age old battle between protestants and catholics..never heard of that?
the rupture between islam and western countries...is this not based upon religion? There are other countries too that are not treated very well by us. They respond differently than islamic countries. Not religion based? Why do they claim it then?
Are they all wrong and you are right?

spuriousmonkey,

The situation in Northern is a little more complicated theat a simple Catholic Vs Protestant dispute. There is 700 years of history behind the Northern Ireland conflict. Basically it started with an English invasion of Pagan Ireland hundreds of years b4. The sectarian problems are only rampant as the enemy, in this case the british invaders happened to be members of a different religion. It is not fair to use this example as a justification for religions causing wars. The war in northern Ireland was and still is a war of independance.

Jus

Come off it people. Just because I have a religion and believe in God does not make all my views biased, all my arguments invalid, and all my ideas narrow-minded.

The Silmarillion was written by one Christian. The Bible was written by a lot more, and with a lot more historical background. Where do you think Tolkien and CS Lewis got their mythology and inspiration from? Homer's Oddysey or Virgil's Aenid? Justemig, finding the Silmarillion more coherent than the Bible, says more about you than about the books.

Sure, Turduckin and I are Christian, but we aren't Muslim as well. The religions might look (a little) similar on the surface, but as you so nicely pointed out Vienna, Allah cannot be the same God that loves all his creation equally. Wonderful logic: No God=all religions are equally misguided=all religions are equal=Islam=Christianity. Yeah.

PS. If God could create us, He could have created other life as well. What concerns us is our own deprivation and salvation. Aren't angels also extra-terrestial life? If life is discovered on some other planet, it will provide further proof that what we know cannot possibly be complete.


BTW Jenyar, don't play down the crusades, they were evil. Don't you dare glorify or condone them.
Thanks Vienna. I was just about to say that all wars are evil, except the crusades. :bugeye:

"Oh surprise surprise, I’ve just heard on the news that Islamic suicide bombers are to hit the UK soon. "
Vienna, don't play down terrorism, it is evil. Don't you dare glorify or condone it. :m:

Originally posted by Jenyar
Sure, Turduckin and I are Christian, but we aren't Muslim as well. The religions might look (a little) similar on the surface, but as you so nicely pointed out Vienna, Allah cannot be the same God that loves all his creation equally. Wonderful logic: No God=all religions are equally misguided=all religions are equal=Islam=Christianity. Yeah.


What on earth are you barbling on about?????????

Religion is a burden to mankind......period.


Originally posted by Jenyar
"Oh surprise surprise, I’ve just heard on the news that Islamic suicide bombers are to hit the UK soon. "
Vienna, don't play down terrorism, it is evil. Don't you dare glorify or condone it. :m:

I was being sarcastic, asswipe.

You remind me of the Christians I used to worship with, y'know the "Holier than thou", and the "I'm ever so righteous" type.

You worship something you can't see, can't smell, can't touch, and ultimately, can't prove exists. I left christianity whilst I had some sanity left, shame you left it too late.

Originally posted by jusmeig
Vienna, your views are remarkably short sighted. Of course Christianity and Islam will join together. This will occur when we find life on another planet.

Gosh, you are right, I am so short sighted that I didn't see this. President Bush will convert to Islam, and we will all live happily ever after on the planet Zod.

This is very sad indeed. If this is the result of religion I think you believers should question your faith in a serious way!!!!

You are right again, religion should be questioned.

Originally posted by jusmeig

The situation in Northern is a little more complicated theat a simple Catholic Vs Protestant dispute. There is 700 years of history behind the Northern Ireland conflict. Basically it started with an English invasion of Pagan Ireland hundreds of years b4. The sectarian problems are only rampant as the enemy, in this case the british invaders happened to be members of a different religion. It is not fair to use this example as a justification for religions causing wars. The war in northern Ireland was and still is a war of independance.

Jus

I would love to give Northern Ireland independence, I'm all for it.

But do you honestly believe if N.I. gained independence, that the hatred between catholics and protestants will stop..........no it wouldn't.

Originally posted by Vienna
I would love to give Northern Ireland independence, I'm all for it.

But do you honestly believe if N.I. gained independence, that the hatred between catholics and protestants will stop..........no it wouldn't.
not really, it is religion after all...that was my point

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
not really, it is religion after all...that was my point

Hello spuriosmonkey,

You are correct. It is so hypocritical when the religious nuts preach that their faith is all about love and peace, and then they kill each other.

Religion=Hypocrisy+Violence

Originally posted by Vienna
Hello spuriosmonkey,

You are correct. It is so hypocritical when the religious nuts preach that their faith is all about love and peace, and then they kill each other.

Religion=Hypocrisy+Violence

i don't think that christianity is entirely about love and peace...otherwise the bible would be totally about love and peace. Religion breeds hatred because of its nature. It claims to hold the truth and there can only be one truth. This positions can breed boundaries in a society (although not always! But does it really matter that sometimes it actually goes ok).

Vienna,

I am Irish. I do not hate protestants. I have lived and worked protestants for most of my life. I was baptised a catholic but have since declared myself agnostic.

If you want to believe that the hatred in NI is based on religion then so be it, but you are completely incorrect. The sectarian motive is only a front for the political motive which is: Protestants want the British in power, Catholics was the Irish Republic in power. Remove religion from the equation and the fighting will still continue, all religion does in the case of Northern Ireland is give non Irish, like you, a way of putting people into a category. Do not pass judgement on a conflict you have not expierenced first hand. You do not see me commenting on Israel etc.....

And no I will not be leaving for the planet Zod anytime soon, nor will I be departing for heaven and hell. Vienna, in the eyes of Islam I am going to hell. In the eyes of Christianity I am going to hell. How can a follower of any religion have a constructive conversation with me if I go againist everything they believe in. I do not do wrong, and I live my life the best I can......but I am doomed according to most religions? If you believe in religion you CANNOT speak objectivly, as if you were speaking objectivly you would not believe to begin!! Do not attack me, I'm just different to you.

Jus

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
Religion breeds hatred because of its nature.

And the truth is the world will be a better place without it.

Originally posted by jusmeig
Vienna,

If you want to believe that the hatred in NI is based on religion then so be it, but you are completely incorrect.

Protestants want the British in power,

Catholics was the Irish Republic in power.

And it's nothing to do with religion........right.

Answer me one question......what do the atheists in N.I. want?

Vienna, The atheists in northern Ireland have varing political views, as do the agnostics like me. I would like to see a united Ireland, but I understand this is very difficult as a large majority of the population of NI would not have it so. However the trouble in NI can be traced back as far as the first Norman invaders from England, therefore ruling out the old religion coin.

And for your imformation. I would not try and argue about NI with somebody from NI. The reason is simple. I do not have a clue what is happening really...and I am Irish. So for you to be commenting on it is very abusive indeed. It is a very complicated afffair.....that nobody can make idle comments about at the drop of a hat.

Originally posted by jusmeig


And for your imformation.

I would not try and argue about NI with somebody from NI. The reason is simple. I do not have a clue what is happening really...and I am Irish. So for you to be commenting on it is very abusive indeed. It is a very complicated afffair.....that nobody can make idle comments about at the drop of a hat.

And for your information.

I am entitled to my opinions and my thoughts, if you don't like them, then tough.

Sorry Vienna, I did not mean to offend you. I know you are entitled to your opinions and thoughts. I am simply saying that the problems in Northern Ireland are viewed totally different by people who live outside of Ireland.

When I view the problems in Palestine I can simply sum it up by saying "gOd them Jews are always fighting the muslims". This however is incorrect and highly abusive to people from that area, perople who live and breath the troubles every day.

I did not mention NI in my post, nor did I wish to bring it up at all. But the context in which it was refered to (as being a classic example of catholic vs protestant), does not paint it in the best light. There are almost 800 years of opression, with no religious significance, behind the NI saga.

Cheers,

Jus