Heres mine ..

When I was 18 I earnt very good money but I had no sense whatsoever. I had also started getting into class A drugs and could easily afford to buy whatever I wanted. As time went on I went down the path of many abusers and got thoroughly depressed, anxious, paranoid, extreme highs, extreme lows etc. I had to quit my job and get help. Psychiatrists did my head in as they all seemed intellectually inferior to me.
My parents were beside themselves. They knew I was smoking herb and accepted that but they didnt know about the acid, E's etc. My behaviour was very strange most of the time but it was the crippling depression that upset my parents most.

Now me mum worked with a woman who belonged to a Christian Worship Group and this woman had become a bit of a shoulder to cry on. This woman suggested that two of the male members who had gone through drug problems and associated depression, came to visit me in my home. Well you can imagine how I felt about that!!!! I was like ' Well thats just what I fucking need isnt it. A bunch of God Botherers telling me I need Jesus etc. Fucking A-Holes!!!'
My mum said they were due to turn up anytime and would I at least be polite. I agreed. I had been brought up not to cause your parents shame and so I went along with it.
So these two lads turn up, well not really lads - in their 30's. They introduced themselves and asked questions about me.... 'What was going on?', 'Was I paranoid? etc'.
I answered honestly for the most part I think. Then one of them started telling me about his life. Major mushroom head, travelled to Afghanistan, India etc in a bus just getting wired and living it up - I could tell he wasnt bullshitting either. The other lad was a major alcholic and talked about his miserable wretched little life on the booze.
They both claimed that 'Jesus' had pulled them back from the brink and 'walked' with them daily helping them in their lives. In my mind I'm thinking 'OK lads you had credibility up till that point ... now why dont you fuck off and leave me to my spliff and techno tunes!'
Then one says 'Hey theres a meeting on tonight. Why dont you come?? We will take you and bring you back!'
The penny dropped! Arggg they had come to fucking convert me!

I was already to make an excuse about why I couldnt go right there and then when I actually looked into this blokes eyes for the first time. How many people look you in the eye when they are talking to you? Check it out, not many do look you str8 in the eye!' Anyway .. I was a bit taken aback because the guy was genuine. He wasnt bullshitting me. Trust me I am very discerning and if this guy didnt look like he was being str8 up with me, I coulda pulled an excuse outta nowhere in a hot flash.
So I went. The car journey to the 'meeting place' was boring but it actually made a change from staring at my bedroom walls, just broke up the day. This was how I justified going along with this madness anyway.
We got there ... big church hall, lots of old people outside. A few young uns, looked a bit like geeks to me. My heart sank. This was gonna be two hours of fucking dull dull dullo with god botherin weirdos - oh joy!
I smiled politely (musnt cause the parents shame) and said hello to people as they said hello to me. We shuffled into this hall and to my horror there were rows of chairs all very regimental. People made their way to a chair, sat down and stared at the stage. Some musicians came on ( well at least I could mock the guitarist who was bound to be crap ) and people scrambled to their feet and they started playing some 'jesus yeah!' tune. Everyone was clapping and singing and I felt a bit like a jew at a pig roast to be honest.
I started praying it would be over in a cynical way.
Eventually it did end after some 'speakers' had rabbited on about something I was probably oblivious to in my mind-numbed state and more of those good old 'jesus yeah!' tunes had been sung ...
The two guys who had brought me to the place greeted me afterwards and asked me what I thought.

Me Politely ( of course ): 'Yeah it was OK. People seemed to enjoy themselves.'
Them: 'But did you enjoy it?'
Me: 'Yeah it was OK.'
Them: 'Shall we get a coffee?' <pointing to v long queue for coffee>
Me:
<Mind thought='are you fucking kidding?????' />
Yeah that would be great!

So we stand in this queue. The coffee is being poured by two very old ladies in only a way that snails could follow with any kind of precision.

It is painful standing there. Awkward. Sensing my awkwardness, one of them says 'I really feel that Jesus wants us to pray with you!'. The other guy chips in 'Yeah its sooo strong isnt it. I really feel it too.'
I'm starting to feel like a trapped animal and have to keep reminding myself that this will end, has to end. I will be back in my bedroom smoking a fatty and listening to tunes and this will be over.
I look at them , feverishly searching for signs of fanaticism and a little crazyness in their eyes but I see none of this. They just look like two excited boys who have just been asked to help Dad hold some wood he is about to cut. I couldnt say no! I looked at the coffee queue, it hadnt moved. I figured if I indulged in their mission to pray with me, perhaps they would be satisfied and take me home. What did I have to lose ( apart from any street cred I had ever obtained) ?
I said 'OK' and shrugged. In my mind I was convinced they were gonna say 'Dear Father, please save this wretched soul from drug addiction etc etc'. Oh fuck it I could live with that as long as I get home soon cos I was feeling pretty paranoid and a little out of my depth now.
They led me over to a quiet corner where people had finished stacking chairs up and flanked me to the left and right. One said ' Jesus is a gentleman, he doesnt just barge into your life and force himself upon you. Rather he wants you to hear his knocking and when you hear it he wants you to invite him into your life.'
[My Mind]Oh for fucks sake ... anything else before I can go!!!![/My Mind]
I stood there while they shut their eyes and put their outstretched palms near me but not touching me. I was expecting the 'Dear Father ...' monologue and just braced myself hoping that when they had finished I could pull off a polite 'Oh I do feel a bit better thanks. Mmm something to think about.' speech. Humour them, get shot of them, job done!
There was no Dear Fathers, In fact I only caught a few words of English like 'Thank you Lord, Praise you Lord', the rest of their 'words' were not in any tongue I had ever heard. It was a little weird but when you had taken as many trips as I had in my time, very little phases you out completely. They didnt stop. No chance to pull out the 'I'm better now, you can feel like youve done a good job lads' speech.

To be continued ...

I found myself standing their completely alone. 'Alone' is probably a bit melodramatic. I knew people were there of course but I had kind of shut them out. I had pretty much shut everything out including the two blokes 'praying' with me. I looked up at the roof / sky and mused how strange it was that I was 'actually' 'messed up' and yet all the things I had seen that evening were just as equally messed up and it was all a question of perception. As I looked skyward I said in my mind to 'Jesus' ... 'Come on then if you are there. Here I am .. I dont believe in all this but I reckon if your as great as everyone makes out you will show me that you are not just a bunch of myths and rubbish.'
If you read the following and think I am making it up I wouldnt blame you. If I were you I would think 'Yeah interesting anecdote .. next...', however the following is my own testimony of what happened.
Something fell on me. Not really fell on me but more like floated down. Not a solid object of any kind but more like a very soft warm invisible cloak. As this cloak settled on and through me I felt the most incredible peace. I got a bit scared and tried to fight it. A little like if you have ever tried to fight the anaesthetic before an operation. I fell backwards. At this point no one had touched me. The two guys either side of me ceased to exist for all intents and purposes except I could still hear them softly. Falling caused no fear in me at all. The thing I was enveloped in was the very essence of trust and 'love' and there was no way that any darkness or fear in me could hide from it. It was exposed and literally 'fled' from me.
The two guys had caught me and had laid me down gently on the floor still praying while they did. My eyes were open whilst this happened. I was not unconscious although the sheer depth of understanding I was receiving from this 'power' was extreme and the world before my eyes seemed very distant but only because it was 'mortal' and 'finite'. This invisible cloak that had wrapped itself around me caused me to feel very strongly that I was being cleansed by blood. Not blood as I guess most would understand it but a river of blood that washed away the badness that had allowed the darkness to get a foothold. I understood how precious that blood was as it surged through me, how costly it was. Understand I am not religous. My parents didnt take me to church and I had no understanding of Christian theology or anything more than this bloke Jesus died on a Cross and he had just told people to love God. That was his crime. I kind of thought that the drama of Christ was a bit like an anecdote - like the 'love thy neighbour' stuff.
If you are even a little bit messed in the head at the moment you will know what I mean when I say that it feels 'grim'. It kind of hangs around you that 'messed' feeling almost haunting at times. All of that disappeared and I felt like I could 'see' again for the first time.
I felt soooo clean. Right through my inner being, the very core of me had been cleansed.
Even as I write this and recollect the day, the hour, the moment, I realise it must sound very fantastical. I looked up at the two guys who were still praying over me. They were at peace and thanking God for his greatness. All sincerity. I was shaken to my roots and yet so overjoyed to be back to my old self. The depression had been lifted. The impatience, the cynicism all gone. I smiled at the blokes and said thanks to them. I was bursting with questions to ask them but all I could blurt out was [sic] 'Iiiiii've bbbbbeen washed in blood'. They seemed to understand perfectly what I was saying like it was nothing out of the ordinary and they told me ' I was very blessed' and the Lord had told them that He had revealed His nature to me.
After that I read loads of the bible and delved into theology and sought out that 'nature'. The books dissapeared after a while. But seeking out that divine nature, such a powerful life giving thing has never left me. I see it everywhere. I see it knocking on doors all the time.
I dont go to church. I dont preach to people. I think Easter is a commercial hype as I do Christmas. I swear, I laugh, I grow cannabis. I get upset and I bleed. I've been through terrible times since that day and I have had great times too. I've done some excellent things and I've made dumb mistakes. I have no regrets. That invisible cloak stays with me in subtle ways and not so subtle ways. It is a mysterious thing. It is refered to in the Bible as the Holy Spirit and was said to be the gift given to believers. Pentecost - appearing as flames over the heads of those being baptised. It is also refered to as the 'Helper'. I can testify that I am helped in soooooo many ways.
Like I say, this is my personal testimony. It is true as I am alive. For me God is real. He is also quiet spirited and humble. A deep peace.

I can tell you I have had some similar experiences, though not quite so fantastic, which led me to becoming a Christian. I do go to Church, but I look at it as more of a support system than a duty. I pray, but not in a prescribed format, mostly long conversations with God. My allegiance is not to a particular church, although I am a practising Catholic, but to the teachings of the New Testament. I don't bother with conversations about proving God or God's existence or anything like that because I think it is a conversation that will ultimately satisfy no one and bears little relevance to my own private faith.

I agree that God's love is quiet and peaceful, but it is available. We also have to make ourselves available to receive it.

C20,

Pretty typical Christian anecdote. Nice exaggeration of how bad you were and then the required exaggeration of a miraculous conversion, which is the usual style of such sickening testimonies.

The more likely truth is that they did a good relentless selling job on you on their home turf, and you were already so confused that you simply gave up and buckled under their pressure. And then of course once you had shown signs of weakness then you would have lost face to back out and had to go all the way – now of course you are simply living under a delusion that something is protecting you.

A good con and you’ve been well and truly conned, and mainly by your own actions.

Kat

Katazia,

This thread was aimed at Christians. Bye now.

Im not Christian,so cant offer you any religious experiences,
however Ive never needed any,since I get high on life.
born and raised atheist I get high on
things such as work,exercise,physical fitness,s&m,traveling,driving fast cars,and good food. :cool:

used to get drunk and party hardy when I was young and stupid,mostly b/c all my friends did also.

tried weed once and hated it, feel best when straight and sober.

and since I learned very early that when you need a helping hand you will find one at the end of your arm,have never cared nor needed for some imaginary skyfairy and all the related crap Jesus loves you etc.

if it works for yous though go 4 it

Paula,

This thread was aimed at Christians. Bye now. This isn't a Christian forum. If all you want to do is share sickening religious fantasies with each other then you should go to one of the many Christain forums that cater specifically to the self deluded.

This is a debate and discussion forum and I have no doubt I have a valid point. That you might not agree with my viewpoint is your problem but you can't exclude me from stating it.

Kat

Yes, this isn't a Christian-only forum, but the thread mainly is. No need to rain on their parade as much as you may disagree with them. There are many threads in these forums and it's not hard to skip over this one.

There's a time and a place to voice your differing opinion, but this needn't seem like the one.

- notta christian

Neildo: Non-Christians have just as much right to post here as anyone else, regardless of the topic.

Katazia: Christians can post on the forums as much as they like...even if their stories are hokey.

But Neildo: I think Kat is right in that you probably won't get as much response as you might about this kind of thing here as you would on some other forum. At least, not the kind you want.

Hi,

Its a free thread. Its no problem to hear other views. I understand peoples cynicism because I was no different. I was pretty awful to other people who tried to talk to me about their faith once upon a time.
I dont mind being called an exagerrator. Its only words. I think people like to believe that people with stories like mine fit them around a common pattern. The truth is though that what I wrote is probably under-exagerrated because it is hard to find words that will make sense to people and fairly hard to type it all out :). I had no faith, no intention of having faith and yet I was healed. How could I make up a full 'healing' ???
I can only speak of what I see and hear.

I would say this though - What invokes the emotion in you Kat that says

...usual style of such sickening testimonies
If all you want to do is share sickening religious fantasies...

I can understand you sitting there with your unbelief, writing it off as 'same ol same ol stories' but why would you then feel compelled to spit venom into a thread. Are the quotes above not melodramatic?

peace

c20

Neildo: Non-Christians have just as much right to post here as anyone else, regardless of the topic.

Yes, but for anti-Christians to post something against them every single time and in every single thread is nothing short of being an ass. The same for the skeptics in the pseudoscience forums.

It's one thing to do anti-whatever rantings in threads made for that, but c'mon, when someone is trying to make a peaceful thread, chill out a bit and let them have their fun. It's called R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

- N

I think a lot of us get edgy, or even downright aggressive, becaue so many people try mass evangelism tactics or preach hate on the forums. I don't know you, neildo, so I won't make any crass assumptions. But perfectly reasonable people get subjected to a lot of crap here on SciForums, largely in the name of God.

I think a lot of us get edgy, or even downright aggressive, becaue so many people try mass evangelism tactics or preach hate on the forums. I don't know you, neildo, so I won't make any crass assumptions. But perfectly reasonable people get subjected to a lot of crap here on SciForums, largely in the name of God.

I agree that people get spammed by the mass evangelist thing but this thread was intended to allow poeple of all different faiths to gain some insight into another's and particulary why that person came to their faith. It was not intended to be any sort of preaching. i even state that i 'do not preach'.

This could have been a very peaceful thread that allowed peoplle to ask questions about saome 'passive' text if they so wish.
The title of the thread was pretty explicit therefore if people dont want to be mass evangelised then they are probably advised to 'skip over' a thread that has something about Christians in it. Although as i state, I am not trying to convert anybody, I just wanted to post my story up on the net and give others the chance to read and discuss if they so wish.

Kat did not want to discuss, instead she wanted to diminish my testimony in a way that made me out to be a weak person in my actions / experiences and subsequent belief system.

Had Kat positioned herself like this ...

c20, Is it not possible that you were delusional because of the stress you were under ...

I would have been able to reply ...

'I was not delusional but its a good question Kat thank you, I am sure others may think that initially, however ...'

This would be discussion. To rant about what you personally find 'sickening' when no-one is preaching to you is a manifestation of 'ego' and does not really fit into the spirit of the thread.

If you dont want to read about someones experieces just dont read. it really is as simple as that.

peace

c20

Neildo,

Yes, this isn't a Christian-only forum, but the thread mainly is.All threads are inclusive of the forum so no thread can exclude others.

No need to rain on their parade as much as you may disagree with them.Why not if I find the issues debatable and seriously questionable?

There are many threads in these forums and it's not hard to skip over this one.Why would I want to skip an opportunity to voice my views on something that I feel is important?

There's a time and a place to voice your differing opinion, but this needn't seem like the one.On the contrary, this was perfect – proselytizing and preaching is not in the spirit or intention of this forum, and what I have done is introduced critical debate which is entirely appropriate.

Kat

Walker,

Katazia: Christians can post on the forums as much as they like...even if their stories are hokey.I entirely agree, but my point wasn’t that they shouldn’t post here but that they have no right to use the forum as Christian support group meeting and not expect any debate or criticism.

Kat

All I can say is religion is good if it helps you become a caring, tolerant, and law abiding citizen.

So good for you, c20.

Neildo,

Yes, but for anti-Christians to post something against them every single time and in every single thread is nothing short of being an ass.I don’t see your point. If Christians want to debate and share testimonies among themselves without criticism then they must go to another forum where dissenters are not permitted.

The objective here is debate and discussion, heated or otherwise, it is not meant to be a mutual appreciation society for nice people who always agree with each other. If you are tired of a relentless onslaught against religious beliefs then you are probably in the wrong forum.

It's one thing to do anti-whatever rantings in threads made for that, but c'mon, when someone is trying to make a peaceful thread, chill out a bit and let them have their fun. Why? I find anything that provides support or encourages religious beliefs to be objectionable and an opportunity to interject those objections and make the opposing case in the spirit of this forum.

It's called R-E-S-P-E-C-T.Nonsense, what you are requesting is surrender or a truce, and I don’t see that religionists deserve any such leeway.

If you want to post pro-religion issues only then you must go somewhere other than sciforums.

Kat

DoctorNo,

All I can say is religion is good if it helps you become a caring, tolerant, and law abiding citizen.

So good for you, c20. Do you realize that a strong belief in Disney’s Mickey Mouse who also espouses those values would be of equal or superior value to Christianity?

My point is that religion is not needed and we achieve the same result through rational morality rather than illogical superstitions.

Kat

Kat: Yeah, exclusivism pisses me off, too.

Err...
I had a couple of dudes turn up on my doorstep a few months ago. I open the door and there's two fella's dressed like MIB's Black suit white shirt y'know the type. They tell me they're conducting a survey so I sez shoot away. The first few questions are pretty harmless. "How long have you lived here?" "Do you consider yourself community minded?" and so on. They seemed keen to come into my house and chat about it but I held my ground and kept control of the doorway. Then BAM they hit me with something like "Has Jesus a place in your heart?" At that point the gloves come off and I tell them that Cuthulu lord of eternal night holds my heart in thrall and would they like to come to the coven and hear his words of power? Of course Cuthulu is a work of fiction but the MIB's education obviously never got as far as Lovecraft.
You should have seen those boys faces drop:)
I asked them in so we could discuss their devotion to the false prophet and start them on the true path.
I was almost disapointed when they declined and ran for the front gate.

Now I 'aint no christian but I guess those boys were.
It's just a shame there not on the board to post that particular testimony I'd just love to hear their side of the story;)

Thats what we need, interesting stuff I'm tired of all this "Jesus groped me with his hand of peace" nonsense
Lets have something meaty!
Any offers?
Dee Cee

C20,

I had no faith, no intention of having faith and yet I was healed. How could I make up a full 'healing' ???And a placebo pill can do the same thing – it is all entirely in your mind. You healed yourself. There was and is no external supernatural force only environment conditions and pressure from others, and your internal desire for some form of change – an epiphany if you like.

But also realize that there is nothing magical about faith, it is simply the epitome of illogical thought. It has no value and certainly should not be admired or encouraged.

I can only speak of what I see and hear.I understand, in which case have you seen or heard God? You have only been told about him and have been conditioned to interpret your feelings as if they have a supernatural cause, but there is no basis for that. God is merely a concept with no basis in reality. I understand that your feelings and experience may well be real but you have no basis to attribute the cause to anything other than your mind and your emotional state and the indoctrination you have received. The effects are no different to those from a placebo.

I would say this though - What invokes the emotion in you Kat that says
“ ...usual style of such sickening testimonies ”
“ If all you want to do is share sickening religious fantasies... ”

I can understand you sitting there with your unbelief, writing it off as 'same ol same ol stories' but why would you then feel compelled to spit venom into a thread. Are the quotes above not melodramatic?Would a polite criticism have evoked the same degree of debate? But I have seen so many make the same mistake especially at Billy Graham style rallies where so many would ‘come on down’ and give their testimonies, and then later see their lives destroyed with the confusion. The process is simply sickening and I feel powerless to prevent such a disease from spreading further. And no I never went forward in any of those rallies; my path through Christianity was quite different, but many of my friends did and when I see them now it is a subject that is to be carefully avoided – they were hurt very deeply.

Kat

DeeCee,

Brilliant.

Kat

Do you realize that a strong belief in Disney’s Mickey Mouse who also espouses those values would be of equal or superior value to Christianity?

I honestly doubt it.


My point is that religion is not needed and we achieve the same result through rational morality rather than illogical superstitions.


Athiesm & Agnosticism isnt for everybody. Many people still need religion. Whether true or false, religion serves to remove or inhibit fear & insecurity about human mortality.

We should be happy for people who became better individuals because of religion. I hate Islam but Im still happy for a few people I know who became better individuals because of their faith in Allah.

I am fond of Christianity so I am even happier for c20. :)

Would a polite criticism have evoked the same degree of debate?

I'll guess we will never know ;) I have nothing to debate. Just wanted to share a story.

C20,

…this thread was intended to allow poeple of all different faiths to gain some insight into another's and particulary why that person came to their faith. It was not intended to be any sort of preaching. i even state that i 'do not preach'.Giving Christian style testimonies is proselytizing and preaching. It is an attempt to convince others that your intense experience attributed to an alleged supernatural is a factual truth and hence hope that others will be convinced and convert to your beliefs.

It has limited if any effect on anyone analytical and skeptical but within a group of like minded people it acts as a support mechanism and encourages and strengthens their already irrational conclusions. If that wasn’t your intention then it could only have been to placate your ego, e.g. “look what I have found, aren’t I good”, etc. otherwise, had your experience been a truly personal experience with your imaginary friend then you would have stayed silent.

This could have been a very peaceful thread that allowed peoplle to ask questions about saome 'passive' text if they so wish.Then you need a pro-religion forum and not sciforums.

The title of the thread was pretty explicit therefore if people dont want to be mass evangelised then they are probably advised to 'skip over' a thread that has something about Christians in it. I fully realize your attempt to illegally exclude criticism and others.

Although as i state, I am not trying to convert anybody, I just wanted to post my story up on the net and give others the chance to read and discuss if they so wish.That’s fine and isn’t that what I have done? It was just that my response was negative and not supportive. What you really expected was Christian support group.

Kat did not want to discuss, instead she wanted to diminish my testimony in a way that made me out to be a weak person in my actions / experiences and subsequent belief system.Almost, but I didn’t intend to be personal. I see you as an unprepared victim and there have been many millions like you. Christians have had many centuries to perfect their indoctrination and propaganda techniques and you were extremely vulnerable and quite unprepared.

'I was not delusional but its a good question Kat thank you, I am sure others may think that initially, The only way you can show that you are not deluded is to demonstrate factual evidence for your imaginary friend and you can’t do that – so what is the basis of your claim that you are not deluded? How do you distinguish between a supernatural cause and the placebo effect?

To rant about what you personally find 'sickening' when no-one is preaching to you is a manifestation of 'ego' and does not really fit into the spirit of the thread. the spirit of the thread was to exclude criticism that you almost certainly do not want to hear.

If you dont want to read about someones experieces just dont read. it really is as simple as that.But I do want to read about such experiences so I can criticize them. What was your point?

Kat

C20,

I'll guess we will never know I have nothing to debate. Just wanted to share a story.Aye, OK – take care kiddo.

Kat

Giving Christian style testimonies is proselytizing and preaching. It is an attempt to convince others that your intense experience attributed to an alleged supernatural is a factual truth and hence hope that others will be convinced and convert to your beliefs.

It was an article of interest. Its intention was to provide a bit of an introduction about myself and my standpoint in other threads that I contribute to. Since the Forum is called Religion, it seemed an entirely appropriate place to place it.



It has limited if any effect on anyone analytical and skeptical but within a group of like minded people it acts as a support mechanism and encourages and strengthens their already irrational conclusions. If that wasn’t your intention then it could only have been to placate your ego, e.g. “look what I have found, aren’t I good”, etc. otherwise, had your experience been a truly personal experience with your imaginary friend then you would have stayed silent.

Your belief is that it is an irrational conclusion. I am happy to disagree politely with you on that matter.

Then you need a pro-religion forum and not sciforums.

Err... this Forum is called Religion? If my post was innapropriate please use the 'Report Post' link at the top of the thread.

I fully realize your attempt to illegally exclude criticism and others.

I have always said its an open thread.

That’s fine and isn’t that what I have done? It was just that my response was negative and not supportive. What you really expected was Christian support group.

Nope I expected my story to provoke interest. I am happy for people to question any element of it but please do it politely and constructively.

Almost, but I didn’t intend to be personal. I see you as an unprepared victim and there have been many millions like you. Christians have had many centuries to perfect their indoctrination and propaganda techniques and you were extremely vulnerable and quite unprepared.

Thank you for your patronisation. :rolleyes:

The only way you can show that you are not deluded is to demonstrate factual evidence for your imaginary friend and you can’t do that – so what is the basis of your claim that you are not deluded? How do you distinguish between a supernatural cause and the placebo effect?

It is called 'faith' - I am sure you know what this means.

the spirit of the thread was to exclude criticism that you almost certainly do not want to hear.

Supposition. Criticism should be constructive. I see nothing constructive in what you have said.

But I do want to read about such experiences so I can criticize them. What was your point?

I think you criticise them because Christianity and Religion in general hurt you or at least your friends emotionally. Perhaps you are bitter that it didnt work out for you and this is why you feel you must negatively criticise somebody who it did work out for. You would be better advised to explain why Christianity or Religion became bad for you. I would then be in a position to understand where you are coming from

DeeCee,

Brilliant.

Kat

Are you happy now that YOU have a supporter???

Irony :cool:

C20,I have a question for you. I don't mean to critisize, I was just wondering. If there are thousands of religions in the world, how do you know for certain that you found the right one because obviously they all can't be right.

C20,I have a question for you. I don't mean to critisize, I was just wondering. If there are thousands of religions in the world, how do you know for certain that you found the right one because obviously they all can't be right.

Hi,

Thank you for asking politely :)

Err ... The truth is I dont know very much about 'religion' . I proved this when I took Proud Muslims Islam test. I certainly knew nothing of Christianity before the experience described at the top of this thread.
In my original post I said that the 'books dissapeared' meaning that I stopped reading the bible and other such christian texts. The reason for this is because they were not simplistic enough for me. The bible is rather confusing in places and I am a fairly 'simple' individual. I know that in my life I sense that the greatest 'power' in the Universe is Love. We can have all the religous dogma in the world but without love we have nothing. Everything Jesus did he quite clearly did in the name of Love with His sacrifice being the greatest love of all. When I heard the voice telling me that 'I was being washed in blood' and I felt a healing surge rush through me, I could not deny what I had heard and felt. I had no knowledge of the 'Blood of Christ' being anything significant so this kind of discounts the 'placebo' effect which has been mentioned as a probable cause of my experience.
I am happier since that day than before that day therefore there is no need for me to seek alternate answers from alternate religions.

Peace

c20

C20, again I honestly don't mean to critisize in a negative way, I just have another question. If you don't trust the Bible, then how do you know what you know about God/Jesus?

C20, again I honestly don't mean to critisize in a negative way, I just have another question. If you don't trust the Bible, then how do you know what you know about God/Jesus?

You are not being negative. You are being polite and inquisitive :)

Its not that I dont trust the bible, I just dont understand some of the long 'difficult to read passages'. The gospels are fairly simplistic tho. These I understand. I am particulary fond of the parables because they are clever ways of explaining things to simple heads like me :)

Peace

c20

DoctorNo,

I honestly doubt it. What? You don’t believe in Mickey Mouse, shame on you – but you must have faith. 

Athiesm & Agnosticism isnt for everybody. Many people still need religion. Whether true or false, religion serves to remove or inhibit fear & insecurity about human mortality.Yes, agreed. But the problem is the large numbers that flock to religion because they cannot think for themselves. The only solution here is better education but that will take a while. I can’t see that the human race is likely to survive for long when the leaders and the majority of people run the world based on fantasies.

We should be happy for people who became better individuals because of religion. I disagree; we should be happy for people who realize for themselves the difference between right and wrong and who do not depend on ancient outdated ideas based on primitive superstitions. You are arguing that the ends justify the means and that is extremely risky. Your idea condemns so many to just being mindless puppets and that is a bad sign for the future of the human race.

I would like to see an end to war and I don’t see that happening all the time people believe in an afterlife. I would also like to see greater tolerance for other lifestyles instead of the bigotry and discrimination we see practiced by the major religions.

No, any acceptance of religion based on its good aspects only ignores and implicitly condones its darker side.

I hate Islam but Im still happy for a few people I know who became better individuals because of their faith in Allah. It is a goal of Islam to dominate the world. Your pacifism may have long term disastrous consequences.

Kat

C20, If you believe in God, then wouldn't you also have to trust that if the Bible truly is his word (or his love letter to humans as I've heard some people say), that every thing in it is important, even if it doesn't seem so?

I was a christian.

Drugs saved me.

They helped me realize religions always eventually evolve into a sick form of control.
Fuck 'em. Get high(er) :m:

I was a christian.

Drugs saved me.

They helped me realize religions always eventually evolve into a sick form of control.
Fuck 'em. Get high(er) :m:

From what I understand, I think Jesus would have agreed with you. He certainly didnt approve of the Pharisees religuos control and blatant hypocrisy. He called them a brood of vipers!

I think it is a shame that stuff that is supposed to be sacred like 'eternal life' and 'peace' and 'love' and 'God' have become synonymous with the Pharisean branch of religion i.e. control freaks being hypocrites and using there own brand of religous dogma to bully people to serve their own greedy ends.

In fact all things 'sacred' are so evidently persecuted in the world that it becomes hard to ignore. Jesus often exposed the hypocrites who used religion to their own bloody end. The real evil was religuous types posing as 'God' and assuming His Authority.

PEace

c20 :m:

C20, how do you tell the differance between the hypocrites and the honest people?

C20,

I thought you didn’t want to debate.

Since the Forum is called Religion, it seemed an entirely appropriate place to place it.I totally agree and it provided me an ideal opportunity to air my views on the issue. Thanks.

Your belief is that it is an irrational conclusion. I am happy to disagree politely with you on that matter.Why would you disagree? That religious belief is irrational is factual. If religion was logical you would need empirical evidence and you have none, that is why faith is stressed (the belief in something without evidence). You cannot form a rational and logical argument without a factual basis.

Err... this Forum is called Religion? If my post was innapropriate please use the 'Report Post' link at the top of the thread.Religion doesn’t imply pro-religion views only, both sides are implied.

I expected my story to provoke interest. I am happy for people to question any element of it but please do it politely and constructively.It did provoke my interest, so you succeeded. I chose to be aggressive because it more accurately reflected my observations. And being destructive is a valid debating technique, and I did not have any objective or see a need to be helpful.

Thank you for your patronisation. You are quite welcome but I believe my statements were factually accurate and not patronizing.

It is called 'faith' - I am sure you know what this means.Yes I explained it in another post in this thread – it is the epitome of illogical thought and quite valueless.

So what you are saying is that you have no rational means to demonstrate that your religious conclusions are anything other than delusion, right?

Supposition. Criticism should be constructive. I see nothing constructive in what you have said.Criticism can take both forms. I wasn’t trying to be constructive; that you expect something else is your problem not mine.

I think you criticize them because Christianity and Religion in general hurt you or at least your friends emotionally. Well no, you are fishing and guessing here. I have never been hurt directly by religion but I do feel sorry for my friends that were hurt. But these are not the primary reasons why I criticize religion.

Perhaps you are bitter that it didnt work out for you There was no bitterness at all, just an eventual reasoned conclusion and then total rejection. Quite a pleasant and enlightening experience really.

…and this is why you feel you must negatively criticise somebody who it did work out for. LOL dream on.

You would be better advised to explain why Christianity or Religion became bad for you. I would then be in a position to understand where you are coming from.There are some 40+ years of analysis, observation, and investigation to consider. The final conclusion is very simple, theism has no factual basis - gods are no more than a human generated concept – pure fantasy - pure fiction. And every time I debate and discuss claims like yours the result is always the same – you cannot show anything of any substance to dispute my conclusions – you have absolutely nothing that demonstrates a supernatural source.

Does that help?

Kat

It's called R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Nonsense, what you are requesting is surrender or a truce, and I don’t see that religionists deserve any such leeway.

Surrender or truce? No, trust me, I love to debate with the best of them. Everything you've said in this thread, I've said to Christians in other threads. The difference though is that there's a time and a place to bring up those thoughts and hatred and this doesn't seem like that thread. Rather than be objective about his post, you just unload the nasty comments.

I thought you didn’t want to debate.

I doubt he has a problem with debating. Heck, my posts aren't to say no to debating in this thread either. It's the WAY you just automatically LASHED OUT, and weren't debating, that was the problem and is why I posted what I posted. Go take a look at your first couple posts in this thread, it's insulting and isn't trying to debate but rather pick a fight. Here, let me quote you:

Nice exaggeration of how bad you were

and then the required exaggeration of a miraculous conversion

which is the usual style of such sickening testimonies

now of course you are simply living under a delusion that something is protecting you

A good con and you’ve been well and truly conned, and mainly by your own actions.

If all you want to do is share sickening religious fantasies

Rather than try and have a discussion or debate, you just flat out call the initial poster a liar and an exaggerator. Then you call his story sickening and that he's delusional. And then again, call all people who share stories, sickening religious fantasies again. I mean what kind of bullshit is that? Go ahead and debate, I'll back you 100%, but like I said earlier, don't be an ass about it. Surely you should understand the difference.

- N

C20, how do you tell the differance between the hypocrites and the honest people?


That is a good question, Ill will get around to the other shortly :D

Well a hypocrite by definition is someone who preaches one way and lives another, well certainly in this context anyway.
I guess honest people just speak from the heart and live that way.
I can tell an honest person from a false person by their actions, I guess that is the same for everybody.

Peace

c20 :m:

C20,

I thought you didn’t want to debate.

I totally agree and it provided me an ideal opportunity to air my views on the issue. Thanks.

Why would you disagree? That religious belief is irrational is factual. If religion was logical you would need empirical evidence and you have none, that is why faith is stressed (the belief in something without evidence). You cannot form a rational and logical argument without a factual basis.

Religion doesn’t imply pro-religion views only, both sides are implied.

It did provoke my interest, so you succeeded. I chose to be aggressive because it more accurately reflected my observations. And being destructive is a valid debating technique, and I did not have any objective or see a need to be helpful.

You are quite welcome but I believe my statements were factually accurate and not patronizing.

Yes I explained it in another post in this thread – it is the epitome of illogical thought and quite valueless.

So what you are saying is that you have no rational means to demonstrate that your religious conclusions are anything other than delusion, right?

Criticism can take both forms. I wasn’t trying to be constructive; that you expect something else is your problem not mine.

Well no, you are fishing and guessing here. I have never been hurt directly by religion but I do feel sorry for my friends that were hurt. But these are not the primary reasons why I criticize religion.

There was no bitterness at all, just an eventual reasoned conclusion and then total rejection. Quite a pleasant and enlightening experience really.

LOL dream on.

There are some 40+ years of analysis, observation, and investigation to consider. The final conclusion is very simple, theism has no factual basis - gods are no more than a human generated concept – pure fantasy - pure fiction. And every time I debate and discuss claims like yours the result is always the same – you cannot show anything of any substance to dispute my conclusions – you have absolutely nothing that demonstrates a supernatural source.

Does that help?

Kat


Ok you win! Whatever it is!! You scare me a bit. I am not sure what I am supposed to be defending! I didnt come here to defend anything. If I have misunderstood something about the purpose of these forums then I am sorry too. I didnt mean any harm and I am not sure why you need to be aggressive about what I have written. If you can actually see anywhere where I said - Hey Folks, You All Need God Now! YEah Jesus Yeah! Christianity Rocks ! YEah Jesus YEah! then I will apologize for being a dick.
If I just chatted my stuff in the hope that people may wanna discuss there story or comment on mine, ask questions ya know??? I clearly wasnt prepared for agression. If thats the lesson I take away from this thas :cool:
I am sorry - I guess I didnt get the bit about free speech.

:confused:

peace

c20 :m:

Neildo,

Rather than try and have a discussion or debate, you just flat out call the initial poster a liar and an exaggerator. Pretty close, although I am not sure he was deliberately lying, exaggeration and confused is the more accurate description.

Then you call his story sickening and that he's delusional. And I do find such stories sickening and since gods do not exist then he must be delusional.

And then again, call all people who share stories, sickening religious fantasies again. Same reason as above.

I mean what kind of bullshit is that? My well considered observations of Christianity.

Go ahead and debate, I'll back you 100%, but like I said earlier, don't be an ass about it. Surely you should understand the difference.Such dramatic testimonies never stand up to close scrutiny and the conversion process is usually very emotionally charged, and the claim to hearing a voice has no credibility.

I’ve just heard so many such stories that I see no point any longer to probing them carefully and politely – they are simply bunk. And I hope C20 will eventually come to the same conclusion in the near future - the sooner the better for the sake of his mental health.

I make no apology for my aggressive stance on this.

Kat

Hiya C20,

First off I wish to thank you for sharing your testimony, it is a experience I personally can relate to and fully believe, isn't it amazing?

sciforums generally doesn't promote this type of topic due to the huge amount of atheists out there, but personally I think it is better posting your experience here then at christianty.com, I think some people here aren't robots(Maybe a few Atheist robots, who I won't name).

Thanks again.

Dave

C20,

Ok you win! Whatever it is!! You scare me a bit. I am not sure what I am supposed to be defending! I didnt come here to defend anything. If I have misunderstood something about the purpose of these forums then I am sorry too. I didnt mean any harm and I am not sure why you need to be aggressive about what I have written. If you can actually see anywhere where I said - Hey Folks, You All Need God Now! YEah Jesus Yeah! Christianity Rocks ! YEah Jesus YEah! then I will apologize for being a dick.
If I just chatted my stuff in the hope that people may wanna discuss there story or comment on mine, ask questions ya know??? I clearly wasnt prepared for agression. If thats the lesson I take away from this thas
I am sorry - I guess I didnt get the bit about free speech.Ahh nuts. I really was trying to target the whole Christian testimony thing and it is difficult to separate the originator from the generic issue.

Don’t be put off by my approach today – I have been debating such things for a very long time and for most of that time I have been meek, mild and polite. There are times though when I find the issues so frustratingly irrational that I explode. You were simply caught in the shock wave.

What I look for is some objectivity in any testimony and factual evidence – you had none. I faced many similar experiences when I was much younger, but I am highly analytical and all attempts to convert me in the way you describe simple backfired on my instigators.

Keep asking questions about what you think you have achieved – what independent verification can you discover? Human emotions can be very deceptive.

Please take care
Respectfully
Kat

Human emotions can be very deceptive.


Hiya Kat,

What emotion did you feel when you first read this thread? What triggered your response?

Take care

Dave

Lol. I started off with nothing to defend and now I find myself defending my mental health.

Look lets look at this intelligently ..

You say...

And I do find such stories sickening and since gods do not exist then he must be delusional.

Ok. You find such stories sickening. Unlucky. :( I cant predict a readers reactions.
"Since Gods do not exist" - Ok thats your point of view. Fairy nuff. I get that bit. You are a person who thinks that Gods and Devils is all bunkem. Fine no probs! I U _ N _ D _ E _ R _ S _ T _ A _ N _ D :D
"he must be delusional." - You are claiming to have studied to be a psychiatrist by declaring that I 'must' be delusional. Exactly what professional qualifications do you have to make that very damning diagnosis?
You also claim that I am a liar. How the hell am I supposed to have a dialetical discussion with someone who from the outset is calling me a liar????
How can i prove anything in two dimensional space? In text? You are requiring evidence of me but are providing no vehicle by which I may present evidence? I have never said I have evidence. I have only stated what is true for me.
You fail to quote the more poignant statements in my posts - stuff like ' If i came on here shouting Jesus Yeah! You all need Jesus Yeah! ....' because you know that the spirit in which they are written exposes you to other readers. I am not a bad delusional person who is mentally unstable. I am someone who experienced something pretty cool and its helped me in my life. You dont believe it. So what?

C20,

Ahh nuts. I really was trying to target the whole Christian testimony thing and it is difficult to separate the originator from the generic issue.

Don’t be put off by my approach today – I have been debating such things for a very long time and for most of that time I have been meek, mild and polite. There are times though when I find the issues so frustratingly irrational that I explode. You were simply caught in the shock wave.

What I look for is some objectivity in any testimony and factual evidence – you had none. I faced many similar experiences when I was much younger, but I am highly analytical and all attempts to convert me in the way you describe simple backfired on my instigators.

Keep asking questions about what you think you have achieved – what independent verification can you discover? Human emotions can be very deceptive.

Please take care
Respectfully
Kat

peace

no worries

c20 :m:

Hiya C20,

First off I wish to thank you for sharing your testimony, it is a experience I personally can relate to and fully believe, isn't it amazing?

sciforums generally doesn't promote this type of topic due to the huge amount of atheists out there, but personally I think it is better posting your experience here then at christianty.com, I think some people here aren't robots(Maybe a few Atheist robots, who I won't name).

Thanks again.

Dave

I think people are cool. i dont get to upset. Stretches the brain ya know ;)

I think people are cool

Me Too :)

Dave

“Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails…” The Apostle Paul

Here is the testimony of my Dad's healing. He is well to this day.

On a Sunday morning in the month of December, 1955, my wife, Esther, and I were getting us and our year-old son, Kevin, ready to go to church. Suddenly, with no warning, something happened that was to drastically change my life for several months to follow. And, at the end of that period another event, also unexpected but hoped for, brought an even more drastic change into my life for all the years that have followed.

As I was walking down the hallway toward our bathroom on that Sunday morning, I suddenly sneezed and instantly felt an excruciating pain in my left hip. The pain was so intense that I was unable to stand up straight. I did not know exactly what had happened to my body, but I knew that it was not good-one moment I was fine; the next I had a bad problem.

For several days after the incident Esther and I tried to figure out what had happened and what to do about it. Would the injury (whatever it was) go away by itself? Should I see my doctor about it? I prayed and Esther prayed that the Lord would see fit to deliver me from my suffering. We also asked others to pray for us. Adding to our concern for my condition was the fact that Esther was four months pregnant with our second child.

The days went by and the pain didn't get any better. It was with me day and night. I walked bent over, unable to stand up straight. My doctor gave me some medicine, which he hoped would relieve the pain. It didn't. On January 3, 1956, I made an appointment to see an osteopath, a kindly, elderly gentleman named Dr. H. E. Eustace.

Dr. Eustace told me that apparently when I had that big sneeze back in December, I was off balance and the force of the sneeze had caused injury to my sacroiliac joint. He explained that, since I had gone a couple of weeks or more without treatment, the ligaments which hold the sacrum and ilium together in the pelvis area had been badly stretched and that pressure had been put on my sciatic nerve. That explained the severe pain I was feeling along the back of my thigh and down my leg.

Dr. Eustace's treatment, stretching the leg with traction, put the sacrum and ilium back in place and for the first time in many days, my pain was gone. I could once again stand up straight. He told me I would have to be very careful as I moved around, especially getting in and out of a car, or it could come out of place again. He said I should put a board under our mattress so that I would have a very firm bed to sleep on. I followed his instructions to the letter.

I continued seeing Dr. Eustace for physical therapy treatments: 8 in January, 10 in February, 10 in March and 6 in April. However, it soon became obvious that something was not going right. The ligaments had been stretched so badly that they would not hold the joint in place very long. Some days I would leave the doctor's office feeling fine, get in my car and drive, but before I got home, the bones would slip out of place and the pain would return.

In an attempt to deal with the problem, after Dr. Eustace put the joint in place, he would put a large, wide belt around my hips and cinch it up very tight. That helped, but only for a short time. And even with a board under my mattress, the bed was still too soft. He suggested that I should begin sleeping on the floor to increase the firmness under me (trying to sleep, that is). I followed his suggestion and moved into the living room with a cotton twin-size mattress the doctor loaned me for my bed.

The condition got so bad that Dr. Eustace loaned me one of his special belts and showed me how to put myself back in place at home. But it got even worse. At night I would lie down on the lightweight, cotton mattress on the floor in our living room, put the bones back in place with the belt and sleep on my back all night, trying not to move. In the morning, I would carefully turn over on my right side and try to stand up. The joint would slip apart.

By now, we were into the month of May-nearly 20 weeks since my accident. To add to our anxiety, our baby was due to be born the first week of that month.. The joy of that coming event was intermixed with our increasing concern for my own medical problem.

One evening, Dr. Eustace came out to our home to save me from driving to his office. (Visiting patients at their home was not a common practice by doctors.) He brought along his brother, also an osteopath, who was visiting him for a few days at that time. They examined me and discussed my case. Dr. Eustace said that we had two options left: one, have a surgeon put a pin in the joint to hold the two bones together (this would cause my back to be permanently stiff), or two, try an injection of a certain fluid into the ligaments hoping to cause them to swell and tighten up, thereby holding the bones in place.

At the end of their visit, I was lying on the living room floor, afraid to move. Dr. Eustace knelt down and put the joint back in place again. Then he and his brother left, leaving both Esther and I so frustrated that we were both crying as the two doctors walked out the front door. We knew that Dr. Eustace really cared about us, but he was definitely frustrated too. By that time it was about 10.00 p.m.

I remained on the floor on my back, not daring to move. Esther got ready for bed, came into the living room, knelt down at my side and prayed for me, pouring her heart out to God for help. We both knew for sure that God was our last and only source of help. Outside of Him there was no help-no solution with which we wanted to live. We were desperate!

I don't remember sleeping. Sometime in the middle of the night, I began to realize that something very unusual was happening in my body. It has never been possible for me to describe it to my own satisfaction to another person. It was like nothing else I have ever experienced in my life.

This is my best explanation: Slowly, gently, but firmly, I felt warm fingers, as it were, moving down my back and across the area of my injury. It was not a pressing or a kneading feeling. It was not forceful or rough. I remember thinking, "What is happening to me?" Because this was all so gentle, my mind was not alarmed or troubled. On the contrary, I felt a growing acceptance and peace. Whatever this was, I somehow knew that something wonderful was happening.

I don't know how much time went by during this experience. When it was over, I remained on my back, not moving for a long time, still awake, thinking about what had just happened and trying to figure it out. One thing I knew for sure, it was a supernatural experience. It was something outside of myself. And although I felt gentleness and warmth, I also sensed the application of power.

Gradually, I came to the conviction that I had been touched by the Holy Spirit. Why should I be surprised by that possibility? Why should I have any difficulty coming to that conclusion? It is what we had prayed for, over and over again.

I could hardly wait for Esther to wake up so that I could share this experience with her. When she looked into the living room to check on me (it was still dark outside), I said, in tears, "I believe God has healed me."

"Tell me what happened," she said. And, so I did with great joy. She said that every time she woke up during the night (which was often because of her pregnancy) she would kneel by the side of the bed and pray. We both believed that our loving Savior had heard and answered our prayers.

I was anxious to find out for certain that I really was healed, so I decided to turn over and stand up, hoping that the joint would stay in place. I stood up. It stayed in place. I walked around the house. It stayed in place. All through the day I increased my activities with joy and thanksgiving to the Lord. It stayed in place. There was no pain. Without a doubt, the Lord had healed me.

From that day to this-for nearly half a century-my sacroiliac has never gone out of place, ever. It was a MIRACLE from GOD. There could be no other explanation.

By the way, a few days later, Esther gave birth to a 7 pound 4 ounce baby girl named Mary Ann. She was two weeks late in coming. God's timing was perfect and our joy was complete.

For the record, my issue is not and never has been that people disagree with my Christian views. I have friends of every major religion and non-religious as well.

My issue is that certain non-Christians believe that their beliefs somehow trump ours and is therefore a license to be as rude and demeaning as possible when such behavior would not be tolerated when directed at any other group. If Katazia is incapable of expressing a thought without being insulting it is not my failing, however I see no reason not to speak up for myself. I have attempted to be very respectful to those whose beliefs I do not consider valid.

Here is the testimony of my Dad's healing. He is well to this day.

On a Sunday morning in the month of December, 1955, my wife, Esther, and I were getting us and our year-old son, Kevin, ready to go to church. Suddenly, with no warning, something happened that was to drastically change my life for several months to follow. And, at the end of that period another event, also unexpected but hoped for, brought an even more drastic change into my life for all the years that have followed.

As I was walking down the hallway toward our bathroom on that Sunday morning, I suddenly sneezed and instantly felt an excruciating pain in my left hip. The pain was so intense that I was unable to stand up straight. I did not know exactly what had happened to my body, but I knew that it was not good-one moment I was fine; the next I had a bad problem.

For several days after the incident Esther and I tried to figure out what had happened and what to do about it. Would the injury (whatever it was) go away by itself? Should I see my doctor about it? I prayed and Esther prayed that the Lord would see fit to deliver me from my suffering. We also asked others to pray for us. Adding to our concern for my condition was the fact that Esther was four months pregnant with our second child.

The days went by and the pain didn't get any better. It was with me day and night. I walked bent over, unable to stand up straight. My doctor gave me some medicine, which he hoped would relieve the pain. It didn't. On January 3, 1956, I made an appointment to see an osteopath, a kindly, elderly gentleman named Dr. H. E. Eustace.

Dr. Eustace told me that apparently when I had that big sneeze back in December, I was off balance and the force of the sneeze had caused injury to my sacroiliac joint. He explained that, since I had gone a couple of weeks or more without treatment, the ligaments which hold the sacrum and ilium together in the pelvis area had been badly stretched and that pressure had been put on my sciatic nerve. That explained the severe pain I was feeling along the back of my thigh and down my leg.

Dr. Eustace's treatment, stretching the leg with traction, put the sacrum and ilium back in place and for the first time in many days, my pain was gone. I could once again stand up straight. He told me I would have to be very careful as I moved around, especially getting in and out of a car, or it could come out of place again. He said I should put a board under our mattress so that I would have a very firm bed to sleep on. I followed his instructions to the letter.

I continued seeing Dr. Eustace for physical therapy treatments: 8 in January, 10 in February, 10 in March and 6 in April. However, it soon became obvious that something was not going right. The ligaments had been stretched so badly that they would not hold the joint in place very long. Some days I would leave the doctor's office feeling fine, get in my car and drive, but before I got home, the bones would slip out of place and the pain would return.

In an attempt to deal with the problem, after Dr. Eustace put the joint in place, he would put a large, wide belt around my hips and cinch it up very tight. That helped, but only for a short time. And even with a board under my mattress, the bed was still too soft. He suggested that I should begin sleeping on the floor to increase the firmness under me (trying to sleep, that is). I followed his suggestion and moved into the living room with a cotton twin-size mattress the doctor loaned me for my bed.

The condition got so bad that Dr. Eustace loaned me one of his special belts and showed me how to put myself back in place at home. But it got even worse. At night I would lie down on the lightweight, cotton mattress on the floor in our living room, put the bones back in place with the belt and sleep on my back all night, trying not to move. In the morning, I would carefully turn over on my right side and try to stand up. The joint would slip apart.

By now, we were into the month of May-nearly 20 weeks since my accident. To add to our anxiety, our baby was due to be born the first week of that month.. The joy of that coming event was intermixed with our increasing concern for my own medical problem.

One evening, Dr. Eustace came out to our home to save me from driving to his office. (Visiting patients at their home was not a common practice by doctors.) He brought along his brother, also an osteopath, who was visiting him for a few days at that time. They examined me and discussed my case. Dr. Eustace said that we had two options left: one, have a surgeon put a pin in the joint to hold the two bones together (this would cause my back to be permanently stiff), or two, try an injection of a certain fluid into the ligaments hoping to cause them to swell and tighten up, thereby holding the bones in place.

At the end of their visit, I was lying on the living room floor, afraid to move. Dr. Eustace knelt down and put the joint back in place again. Then he and his brother left, leaving both Esther and I so frustrated that we were both crying as the two doctors walked out the front door. We knew that Dr. Eustace really cared about us, but he was definitely frustrated too. By that time it was about 10.00 p.m.

I remained on the floor on my back, not daring to move. Esther got ready for bed, came into the living room, knelt down at my side and prayed for me, pouring her heart out to God for help. We both knew for sure that God was our last and only source of help. Outside of Him there was no help-no solution with which we wanted to live. We were desperate!

I don't remember sleeping. Sometime in the middle of the night, I began to realize that something very unusual was happening in my body. It has never been possible for me to describe it to my own satisfaction to another person. It was like nothing else I have ever experienced in my life.

This is my best explanation: Slowly, gently, but firmly, I felt warm fingers, as it were, moving down my back and across the area of my injury. It was not a pressing or a kneading feeling. It was not forceful or rough. I remember thinking, "What is happening to me?" Because this was all so gentle, my mind was not alarmed or troubled. On the contrary, I felt a growing acceptance and peace. Whatever this was, I somehow knew that something wonderful was happening.

I don't know how much time went by during this experience. When it was over, I remained on my back, not moving for a long time, still awake, thinking about what had just happened and trying to figure it out. One thing I knew for sure, it was a supernatural experience. It was something outside of myself. And although I felt gentleness and warmth, I also sensed the application of power.

Gradually, I came to the conviction that I had been touched by the Holy Spirit. Why should I be surprised by that possibility? Why should I have any difficulty coming to that conclusion? It is what we had prayed for, over and over again.

I could hardly wait for Esther to wake up so that I could share this experience with her. When she looked into the living room to check on me (it was still dark outside), I said, in tears, "I believe God has healed me."

"Tell me what happened," she said. And, so I did with great joy. She said that every time she woke up during the night (which was often because of her pregnancy) she would kneel by the side of the bed and pray. We both believed that our loving Savior had heard and answered our prayers.

I was anxious to find out for certain that I really was healed, so I decided to turn over and stand up, hoping that the joint would stay in place. I stood up. It stayed in place. I walked around the house. It stayed in place. All through the day I increased my activities with joy and thanksgiving to the Lord. It stayed in place. There was no pain. Without a doubt, the Lord had healed me.

From that day to this-for nearly half a century-my sacroiliac has never gone out of place, ever. It was a MIRACLE from GOD. There could be no other explanation.

By the way, a few days later, Esther gave birth to a 7 pound 4 ounce baby girl named Mary Ann. She was two weeks late in coming. God's timing was perfect and our joy was complete.

Thanks for sharing :) It is so hard to put into words that 'touch'.
peace

c20 :m:

to the critics

underneath the window dressing lies a personal spiritual experience. it would be wise as well as good mannered to afford the topic poster the legitimacy of this experience.

attempting to dispute the experience with mere conjecture and anecdotes of your own is hardy the way to go.

alternatively, you all could, simply fuck off

Hathor,

underneath the window dressing lies a personal spiritual experience. it would be wise as well as good mannered to afford the topic poster the legitimacy of this experience.It is not the experience that I dispute but the claim for the cause that I find objectionable and unjustifiable. To remain silent is to infer acknowledgement and legitimacy to the claim as well as the experience, and that is not acceptable.

To state and describe a deep personal and emotional experience is fine but once that then proceeds to “and God did it” then we are in questionable territory and is essentially proselytizing which is highly objectionable, whether intended or not.

Kat

Paula,

For the record, my issue is not and never has been that people disagree with my Christian views. I have friends of every major religion and non-religious as well.That’s fine and I also have close friends who are Christian.

My issue is that certain non-Christians believe that their beliefs somehow trump ours and is therefore a license to be as rude and demeaning as possible when such behavior would not be tolerated when directed at any other group. If Katazia is incapable of expressing a thought without being insulting it is not my failing, however I see no reason not to speak up for myself. There is perhaps a fine line between factual accuracy and an insult. Someone with an uninformed perspective or irrational criteria will possibly see factual statements as seriously insulting – in which case is there an insult or not.

My comments in this thread, and note I take different approaches elsewhere, comprised primarily of the terms – sickening, fantasies, and delusions. The term sickening described my feelings of certain religious activities, so I’m not sure that you should feel insulted by the way I feel. “Fantasies” refers to all religious beliefs since none have any factual basis or proofs. You can claim this is an insult when you can prove that a god exists, until then religious claims are indistinguishable from fantasy. And “delusions” is the most likely cause for many religious claims where someone claims to see or hear something that doesn’t exist. How else would you describe someone who thinks imaginary objects are real?

I have made no insults but have pointed out harsh truths about religious beliefs, and have presented these truths in an aggressive manner to stir up emotions and debate, to which I have amply succeeded.

I have attempted to be very respectful to those whose beliefs I do not consider valid. And would you be respectful to a rapist about to molest you because he believes that every woman should be raped. At what point does tolerance for others’ beliefs stop and aggressive defense kick in?

I do not see any strong incentive for me to be tolerant of religious ideologies and claims that I believe are a serious threat to the future of mankind and to me personally. I make a distinction between being tolerant of harmless ideas and those where we need to take responsibility and fight against and defeat.

Kat

KAT

very well. carry on then

That’s fine and I also have close friends who are Christian

i suggest you strike now. do it before it is too late

:D

I believe are a serious threat to the future of mankind and to me personally

be honest kat. is it trauma or rational thought that has brought you to this point. can you understand if i note a certain amount of fanaticism in your outlook

In the clear light of day, I think I understand Kat's 'perspective' better.
Like I say I wasnt prepared for 'aggression' but thats not to say that 'agression' is not the correct response for Kat. She has a right to debate the point from a 'fighting' stand point. Apologies for not understanding that fully earlier.

I think this is the discussion...

Kat's stance is justified because she believes that mankind may be in danger if people keep preaching something that Kat 'believes' is a lie. Kat has only ever witnessed 'Christianity' as being a bad thing and wants to attack the stereotypical 'bad drug head finds jesus and all is cool' stories because they are deluded and dont 'realise' the harm they are doing. The testimonies cannot be supported by any evidence and you only have to look around the world today to see all the trouble that 'Religion' causes.

Do you agree with Kat? If so get behind her!

For the sake of interesting debate ( cos this is where the fun is I guess - play along with me people :D ) I will adopt the stance that by damning these stories she is in effect wishing ill on mankind and has been deceived herself. I will try and convince her that Man needs to fellowship with God in order for that man to be saved.

If you want to help Kat and her cronies see that Jesus is not synonymous with Religous hypocrisy but is synonymous with eternal life and salvation, dont forget to say your bit :D

If we debate this professionally I am happy. I kinda walked into it blind before not being familiar with the general 'tone' and purpose of these forums to the majority.

Are you ok with this Kat?

If you want to help Kat and her cronies see that Jesus is not synonymous with Religous hypocrisy but is synonymous with eternal life and salvation, dont forget to say your bit
C20, what exactly makes Jesus differant from religion? Perhaps you could explain.

Hathor,

be honest kat. is it trauma or rational thought that has brought you to this point. can you understand if i note a certain amount of fanaticism in your outlookAre you sure you want to pursue that avenue?

From Webster: Fanatic - marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.

That pretty much accurately describes all active Christians, right?

But can you formulate an argument that attacks the issues rather than me personally? So far I have made no personal abusive attacks.

Kat

C20,

LOL – nice try; and definite value in your approach. I will follow up a little later with some more detail.

Kat

kat

show me your objectivity by outlining the positive impact christianity played in the development of human societies. can you envisage a situation in which these fantasies are not harmful but rather beneficial to the individual?

if you do so in satisfactory manner, i will withdraw the allegation and apologize.

as of now, the "excessive enthusiasm" fits you to a tee.

such sickening testimonies
....sickening religious fantasies
...to the self deluded
...prevent such a disease from spreading further.

these can be construed as abusive attacks. they automatically belittle and devalue any poster that responds to the topic post.

it is the personalities that interest me in this subforum, not the issues. on the one hand, you have the best intellects that sciforums has to offer posting here. on the other, you have the religious retards. a very curious mix.

it seem to me however, that all are on a mission from....(insert here)!

i think attacks merely serve to radicalize. caution is advised.

;)

C20, what exactly makes Jesus differant from religion? Perhaps you could explain.

Ok I will try. I think you have to put 'Religion' into context. Religion covers groups of people who usually share some idea that a higher power influences their existence. There are other types of religion but I think we all know what we are talking about in principal.
Anyway, 'Christianity' is a religion. Some people become Christians for all sorts of different reasons. Some people because they have experiences like I described, some people cos they have grown up with parents who were Christians, some cos they just picked up a bible one day and read the stuff about this guy going round talking about God and love and about how they nailed him to a tree for saying stuff like that. Some 'Christians' beg for money on the tv and internet and they tell you that God will love you more if you give them the money. Theres lots of different 'Christians' because there are lots of different people.
If you look at a body of people who call themselves Christians, you are never going to get a clear picture of Jesus who is the central figure of that particular 'religion'. You just have this 'rabble of Christians' ( can I copyright that collective noun please :D).
Unfortunately 'religion' as a positive thing in the world is barely visible. We see people on the news representing 'Religous' groups all the time. We see the priest getting put in jail for abusing children, we see planes blown out of the sky in the name of Allah (God), we see stumps where childrens limbs were because this man decided God told him to strap 15 lbs of semtex to his chest and walk into a crowded shopping centre cos it had a fricken Mac Donalds in it and everyone knows God hates those burger eating capitalist pig dog Yanks and so he detonated it shouting 'Praise Allah'.
Everyone ends up thinking that this whole Religion thing is full of freaks. If anyone talks about religion the immediate response is to do the mind association thing which goes 'religion' = 'deluded nutters causing mayhem evil and death'.
Strip away the rabble for one moment and focus on 'Johnny'. Johnny is sitting by the river one day and he has just got divorced. He is sad. After their baby daughter died they both fell apart so badly that they could no longer support eachother emotionally. Things went from bad to worse. Johnny blames God for this. He hates God. As he contemplates suicide he has a vision. Johnny has never been religious but now he has an outstretched image of Jesus before his closed eyes and inside him he feels like his inner being is being cleansed and his pain and hurt is lifted. His bitterness leaves him and over time he learns to accept his new circumstances. Each day he wonders about that day when he had the vision. He secretly gives thanks to Jesus every day for helping him back from the brink of despair. If people ask what religion he is, Johnny says I am a Christian. People say 'Why are you a Christian?' and Johnny tells his story.

Johnny knows Jesus personally. Johnny is a Christian. What kind of Christian is Johnny? Can you spot him in the rabble? Can you hear what Jesus actually said in that rabble?

Johnny's story will never hit the News Channel. What is Johnny's story? Oh yeah 'God touched his life and it was good... it HELPED him. Johnny truly believes that :). Johnny calls himself a Christian because he has come to read more about Jesus and he follows His teachings'. What are Jesus' teachings? Did that get lost in the rabble too?

In short Religion is a word whose meaning has become more and more synonymous with bigotry and hatred over time wheras 'Jesus' is a personal Savior to some and the key figure in a Religious Book called The Bible.

Peace

c20 :m:

C20, I grew up in a Christian home and stuff, but right now I'm kind of have an agnostic belife because I'v had thoughts like Johnny's, but instead I wonder why would a loving God let someone experiance this type of torment? Have you? It's is the worst thing a person could go through. You live every day yet you aren't really alive and you can't really die. Your just going through the motions but numb to everything and you just want it to all go away. I understand that with Eden everything went downhill and so "sin" is just allowed by God not endorsed, but still.

C20, I grew up in a Christian home and stuff, but right now I'm kind of have an agnostic belife because I'v had thoughts like Johnny's, but instead I wonder why would a loving God let someone experiance this type of torment? Have you? It's is the worst thing a person could go through. You live every day yet you aren't really alive and you can't really die. Your just going through the motions but numb to everything and you just want it to all go away. I understand that with Eden everything went downhill and so "sin" is just allowed by God not endorsed, but still.

Depression is a terrible thing and I have suffered from it after a divorce with a child involved :(. I had a very hard time with my faith at this time. I had similiar feelings of blaming God for his inactivity when 'He was God for God's sake he could easily sort this out.'.
After nine months of hell and dark depression ( my first wife commited adultery with my good friend btw), I met my partner of now 10 yrs. She is a very kind woman and an excellent mother. She is also an excellent stepmother to the daughter from my first marraige.
All the time that I blamed God for not 'sorting it out' I was aware of the irony. Who was I to tell God when stuff should happen and what should happen? I still maintained some reverence however, my earlier testimony still a powerful reminder of how powerful God really was. I think God watches out for you even if He knows you are not going to be back for a while :)

I still don't understand how you know for certain that you can trust Him?

I have attempted to be very respectful to those whose beliefs I do not consider valid - someone

And would you be respectful to a rapist about to molest you because he believes that every woman should be raped. At what point does tolerance for others’ beliefs stop and aggressive defense kick in? - Kat

Oh c'mon, gimme a break. Using rape is in no way comparable to the "tolerance" of the beliefs people here are sharing. It's one thing where one may not agree with someone's POSITIVE beliefs due to lack of proof and being respectful to it, but that doesn't mean the person is tolerable to ALL beliefs. That's the key thing, people here are sharing POSITIVE experiences, not something such as rape. So since it's POSITIVE, there should be some R-E-S-P-E-C-T given for their beliefs, even if one may not agree with them. If one doesn't give respect for positive beliefs because one doesn't agree with them, that must mean you're the opposite in that you're an evil person. Why else would one not be respectful to ones positive beliefs? Now if someone was talking about evil and other hateful religious stuff that you don't agree with, then go ahead and let that agreesive defense kick in but c'mon, when nobody is trying to cause harm here, STFU. :)

From Webster: Fanatic - marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.

That pretty much accurately describes all active Christians, right?

Uh, no. Taking one word of a definition and applying that to the whole definition is well, a sad and pathetic attempt at trying to make someone look bad. If one is going to bold cetain words to show the meaning of a fanatic, "excessive" and "intense" are the key words. Heck, I'm surprised you didn't just bold "enthusiasm" and "devotion".

But can you formulate an argument that attacks the issues rather than me personally? So far I have made no personal abusive attacks.

Yes, you have. In fact, you were the one to throw the first blows before anything bad was said by anyone else.

Oy, I can't believe I'm defending ya Christians. Save meeee! :p

- N

If all you want to do is share sickening religious fantasies with each other then you should go to one of the many Christain forums that cater specifically to the self deluded.

Sick religious fantasies? When I read that, this came immediately to mind.

I consider myself to be a deep thinker.
When neccessary.
...
This evening, I began to consider the possibility of an existence of a god.

... in this case I challenge you to consider the possibility very intensely.
My intent in this thread is not a debate as to whether or not there is or is not a god, but a question of what if...

My first reaction upon this creative indeavor was...WOW.
A FUCKING GAWD!!!!!!!!!!
How fucking cool that would be.
If there was a GOD!!!!!!
To bad there is so many preconceived ideas of "GOD" for this to be as fun as it could be.
...
Fuck I'm awesome!

Here (http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=35538)

I still don't understand how you know for certain that you can trust Him?

Because whoever is for you cannot be against you. I asked Jesus to show himself to me and he did through His spirit. The spirit healed me and set me on a better path. Lots of people in my life who know me would testify that this was the truth irrespective of their own personal beliefs or non-beliefs.
Jesus became my Ally. You trust your allies?

It takes a long time for me to trust people. It's something that must be earned. Don't you ever feel like you owe him something, I mean, God sent His Son supposedly, so if this is true, and you say that He becomes your friend, then arn't you kind of eternally in debt to him?

It takes a long time for me to trust people. It's something that must be earned. Don't you ever feel like you owe him something, I mean, God sent His Son supposedly, so if this is true, and you say that He becomes your friend, then arn't you kind of eternally in debt to him?

Another good question and it will help me explain the mistake many born again Christians make after receiving God's Spirit in their lives.

The sacrifice that you speak of is pretty mad. I actually find it quiet difficult to take at face value and the theology of it gets quite intricate when you look at it in any detail however if you are a bit of a simpleton like me you just try and find out what your debt is for this massive thing that you dont quite understand. The message Jesus has for us is 'the debt you have is to eachother. love one another.' That kind of makes sense to me :)

The mistake new Christians make is thinking they have to go out and convert everybody just as they have been. They feel this is the debt they have to Christ and immediately want to repay that debt. They are massivly unprepared for the questions and cynicism that follows and end up with the wind taken out of their sails very quickly.
It takes a long time from that point of humility and rejection to realise that the first debt we have to Christ is to just love one another. By our actions we will show people the Love of Christ and because we are Christians we will be an example of our faith in our daily lives. Athiests and agnostics may then be able to see past the religous hypocrisy which cripples faith and 'may' look into the matter further.

peace

c20 :m:

how do you define a born-again Christian? What exactly does that term mean?

Stupid moron.

"Stupid moron" - Verbose or not? Discuss :)

peace

c20 :m:

It takes a long time from that point of humility and rejection to realise that the first debt we have to Christ is to just love one another.
c20, you have the most sober view of Christianity I've come across in a long time. It's refreshing. I get involved in complex theological issues so often that I sometimes forget to appreciate what faith looks like where it matters. I'm learning a lot from you.

Just my testimony on being born again, for what it's worth:

It's the opposite of taking your own life - it's letting the life of God take you. It reminds me of the litany against fear (from Dune):
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
I will face my death and my suffering.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn my spiritual eye to see its path.
Where death and suffering has gone there will be life.
Only eternal life remains.

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."
1 Peter 1:23

c20, you have the most sober view of Christianity I've come across in a long time. It's refreshing. I get involved in complex theological issues so often that I sometimes forget to appreciate what faith looks like where it matters. I'm learning a lot from you.

Wow thats cool to hear, thanks.
I'm amazed anyone can learn anything from me tho - my knowledge of scripture is poor I have to be honest. The Spirit is cool though in bringing stuff to mind when needed even if it comes out in my own muzzy style :D .

Yours in Christ

c20 :m:

C20

Like Jenyar, I was also quite drawn in by your postings & responses to the others who are critical of your testimony and to the ones who have questions about the event that you say has had an effect on your life. At the very least you seem to be showing respect to others who have different viewpoints.

However, my questions to you are these: What do you think (or feel or believe) happened to you that time? What fact can you point to that will support what you think (or feel or believe) happened to you? Have you ever thought another explanation could rationally explain what happened to you at that time other than what you think (or feel or believe)?

c20, you have the most sober view of Christianity I've come across in a long time. It's refreshing. I get involved in complex theological issues so often that I sometimes forget to appreciate what faith looks like where it matters. I'm learning a lot from you.Jen: Amen! c20, you've managed to imrpess someone I've always been impressed by. Thats impressive :)

C20

Like Jenyar, I was also quite drawn in by your postings & responses to the others who are critical of your testimony and to the ones who have questions about the event that you say has had an effect on your life. At the very least you seem to be showing respect to others who have different viewpoints.

However, my questions to you are these: What do you think (or feel or
believe) happened to you that time? What fact can you point to that will support what you think (or feel or believe) happened to you? Have you ever thought another explanation could rationally explain what happened to you at that time other than what you think (or feel or believe)?

Good questions again and I will try and be as objective as possible.
:bugeye:

What do I 'think' happened to me ...
I think that God chose me to receive His spirit.
I could not receive that Spirit and begin my life as a new creation unless I actually invited Jesus into my life. This was something that under normal circumstances I was very very unlikely to do. I was way too caught up in the world and its vices to think about hokey pokey Jesus and his bible bashing fanatics.
When the 'fanatics' came into my house, I could not deny that they were not fanatics but just ordinary people with a story to tell similiar to my own. They were OK, friendly enough but there was nothing about them that made me want to get down and praise the Lord. Frustration took me to that point where I took all my doubts to 'Jesus' and asked him to show me hiself despite my doubts etc. At the time that I did, my pure understanding was that this was utter madness and nothing was gonna happen. I had no expectations at all. Truthfully I expected no miracle, no voice in my mind, no healing nothing. I actually wanted to say 'OK lads I feel better now.' just so they would get me the hell home. I think God poured out his Spirit on me when I took my doubts to Jesus. I gave Him an invitation and He kept His promise and responded. Thats what I think happened. I cannot fully explain the experience either in physical terms or mental / feeling terms because it is just so hard to do. I felt like I had been plucked from the world and had become immersed in a river of blood. The blood washed over me, warm and thick and as it did it penetrated everything that I was both physically and emotionally. I must have lost physical consciousness briefly because I fell backwards but I was not afraid and I was 'awake' in my mind all the time. There was nothing to be afraid of anymore - I felt like this was the end of my life, I was dead and yet there was so much more and the more was better. I remember feeling like such a dick because I had not believed and I remember hearing / feeling that I should not beat myself up about this because God was so happy I had come home.

Heres a whole bunch of Holy Spirit outpouring references from the bible ..

http://www.bibletopics.com/topics/366.htm

Thats what I think happened to me.

What facts can I say point to my being a new creation after being baptised in the Spirit ...

Well...

This may be a little glib but my old self prior to this event would have 'well taken the piss' out of Christians on a SciForums type website. I would have loved to try and kick their feeble religous walking sticks away from them. I just couldnt do that now because of this deep conviction I have of the truth. I probably would have killed the wife who cheated on me along with my cheating friend. I had never been known for my tolerance of people who betrayed me. I could give examples but it would not be appropriate or substantiated. What I am trying to say is my nature changed after that day. Not all in one go but after time as I learned new things about myself and God. I started hating the things I loved to do such as ripping those easy to knock over Christian types and I started to love the things I hated to do such as being 'selfless'. I was very selfish before the event.
I suffered my divorce. Really suffered. I suffered because I was being forcebly seperated from my daughter who had become everything to me. The new love that was in my heart found so much time for my daughter.
Rather than being angry as I would have once been, I wrestled that anger with God. Why build me up to knock me down? I came to understand that my ex wife could do as she pleased and God was there to support me in my pain, not force my ex wife to be faithful to me. When i came to understand that I was able to see my daughter again and be stable for her.
I appreciate these facts are unsubstatiated. Hopefully you will take me at my word :)

And now for the interesting one ...

Have you ever thought another explanation could rationally explain what happened to you at that time other than what you think (or feel or believe)?

Of course!!! Boy I had taken enough psychedelics to make a Shaman sit down and wonder wtf it was all about. My rational mind ( please dont let me be a Christian!) wanted to present a 'flashback' as the most probable cause of the event but this caused major internal conflict. If it was a flashback how had I had a revelation about the blood? How come I felt 'better' after the experience? Why was my mind clearer than it had been in years? Why did I see people in a different light? Those happy clappy Christians no longer looked like disjointed people with nothing better to do on a Sunday, they looked happy and 'United'. My eyes were open to a number of things like that. I had always viewed people like that with a degree of suspicion, in fact I held most people in contempt such was my arrogance. The arrogance had left me. This was not the case on drugs. Drugs fuelled my arrogance typically.
I tried again to rationalise ( Christians are ridiculed for God's sake - please dont let this be true) that how was I to know the effects of drugs on my mind long term? This could be drugs, had to be drugs!! But it wasnt.
I am a changed person. Changed from the inside out. Drugs dont make you a better person and whilst not perfect (no where near lol ) I think I am a better person than I was before my experience. Again close friends would testify to this. Some even offered their lives to Christ as a result of seeing the change in me and as a result are themselves changed.

I hope I answered your questions correctly. If I have missed anything please let me know.
peace

c20 :m:

C20, If God "chose" you, than how does this make Christianity welcome to all people. To me it sounds like it a religion for the elite choosen. May I've misinterpreted something...

Yes I agree this is a tough one and maybe the theologians can help me out a bit?

I kind of think of it like this ...

Imagine you are a new teacher taking your first class. You look around for the troublemakers. Pick them out and make a note of their names. You are a good teacher and believe that these delinquents can be educated because of your skill as a teacher despite the fact that they are flicking bits of chewed up paper at the kid in front of them and apparently have no respect for you and no respect for education.
You have 'chosen' them for intense education.
The good kids will receive their education in the normal way and if they pay attention and dont waste their opportunities they are bound to do well and receive their rewards commensurate with their effort.

The delinquents dont stand a chance without special treatment. Some wont make it of course but that goes for the chosen kids AND the normal kids.
No one is excluded from the class however. Everyone can sit the class.

peace

c20 :m:

But it's like the techer choose to have the trouble makers in his class, because God allows people to come into existance, right?

He didnt choose to have the trouble makers in his class. What Teacher would choose to have trouble makers in the class?
They were just troublemakers.
All those whose names were down for the class attended.

So God didn't make people?

Jen: Amen! c20, you've managed to imrpess someone I've always been impressed by. Thats impressive :)

:o ty

It is actually a real priveledge to be able to share this stuff. I cant take credit for any wisdom there if you know what I mean ;)

So God didn't make people?

Yeah, God made people. He made people so they could learn from Him and be like him and live in peace. Some chose not to or they didnt know that that was what they were supposed to be doing, some didnt care, some did care, some found it really really hard, some easy. God still makes His sun shine on everyone no matter what!
Everyone takes the class!

So, if God makes people and trouble makers are people, than doesn't that mean that he chose to allow them in his class/world? As you can tell, I am very confused.

The thing is you and I may see trouble makers, we may even be troublemakers however God sees people made in His own image and knows the potential every human being has to pass the class so to speak.
If we dont pass the class it would not be fitting to move to higher education.
If your saying did God purpously create the trouble makers as well as those who did not cause trouble then the answer is yes he did 'create' them however he gave everyone 'free will'. Some people liked causing trouble, some had seen no other example set as they grew up and so only ever knew how to cause trouble. God says look, no matter what you are like or what you have done, I love you. He says ' I am no longer angry that you have turned your back on me and cause trouble all the time and never learn anything!'. In the old testament we see God being angry at the sin / trouble in His world and created a flood to destroy all of mankind bar Noah and his Wife ( He shut the school since it was so completly over run with wickedness) He then says ' I make a new deal with you. I will reopen the school and will send my very own Son to teach you. If you listen to Him and follow his teachings, you will pass the class'. When the Teacher first came to the school, some of the troublemakers had kind of gotten used to the fact that the school had been closed and enjoyed their freedom to do what they wanted. When the school reopened and lessons began, they resented even being asked to attend because their troublemaking was profitting them outside of the school gates. Some of the big kids were exploiting the smaller ones and no one seemed to do anything about it. They resented the new Teacher so much that they plotted to kill him. When the newly reopened class was underway everyone received new study books. In their study books it was predicted that the Teacher would be killed by some of the troublemakers among them. Also in the study book was a promise that the Teacher would send another Helper to help them to continue their study after He was killed. Those plotting to kill Him didnt even hear this amazing prediction because they were too busy plotting to even see or hear. Before he was killed the Teacher confirmed that what they saw in the study book was true and although he would be killed, He would be raised from the dead again and would go to Heaven to be with God His Father. When He was there he could then send the Helper to those that wanted to study and eventually join Him in Higher education. Some of those that closely followed His teachings witnessed his murder and burial. They also saw His empty tomb 3 days later and saw their Teacher in His new body and they believed on Him and He was pleased and told them to make His teaching available to as many willling students as possible. They then saw Him ascend to Heaven to be with His Father as predicted. Not long after that they received the Helper ( Holy Spirit) as promised and went out to share their gift with all those who would listen.
Some of the big boys killed those students because they were afraid they would have to give up exploiting people if this new teaching caught on. One of those big boys was struck down by God with blindness and was shown a vision (Saul on the road to Damascus). Saul later 'Paul' became one of the greatest messengers of the teachings of Christ because he repented of his mission to kill Christians. It took a long time for the normal kids to accept that this big time trouble maker had changed but they came to trust him.

peace

c20 :m:

Amen! I especially like how you describe Paul as a bully - he always sounded to me like one, even after his conversion - you could tell he wasn't someone to be messed with, but that just makes the love God proclaimed through him all the more clear.

Being chosen is like receiving a letter saying you have been accepted into Harvard with a full bursary. It doesn't automatically transport you into Harvard, but now you have a legitimate reason to go there, and no excuse not to. Unless you're someone like Van Wilder.

And to those who wonder whether you have to have an experience like c20 or Saul had before you can believe - you don't. While I would love to have had something like it, and sometimes feel my own testimony would be stronger and more convincing with something like it, I have to remind myself it's not true.

What I believe and what c20 experienced comes from the same source. I mean, even while Jesus was performing his miracles an