Christians Should Thank The Pilate

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by (Q), Nov 2, 2002.

  1. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Pontius Pilate could just as easily have thrown your savior Jesus into a prison cell to rot. Where would you be today if he did ?

    A further thought... did Jesus go about doing his thing because of the sins of the people in general or was it because of the cruelty of the Romans ? That said, what do think may have occurred if the Romans had not come to power ?
     
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  3. muscleman Banned Banned

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    Jesus allowed it to happen, he said to Peter who cut off one of the soldier's ear in an attempt to save Jesus "Peter, whoever lives with the sword dies with the sword, this is the father's will, otherwise I can send legion of angels to defend me, but I must fulfill my father's will".

    Again God cannot stop your from doing evil or doing good, otherwise God will be breaking His promise by saying "Befree and I give you dominion over all the plants and creatures that inhabits the earth" God said that in Genesis, God doesnt break His own promise. He created us as humans with freewill and judgment, God cannot stop us from doing what we want to do (his image), he didnt create us as robots. Again life is a beautifull gift, though any gifts can be aabused and used improperly.

    So dont thank Pilate, thank God who keeps His promise and DOES things with GREAT LOVE.

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    Again about the roman empire being in power, GOD IS ALL KNOWING, HE KNOWS THE FUTURE, HE KNOWS THE PRESENT, and again to reming your aligator brain, just because God knows it, it doesnt mean HE DID IT, and he cant also stop us from being free and doing what we want to do because we are free, otherwise God will bebreaking his own promise.

    So your "if" thing isnt working, sorry Q but nice try. Hey try again and post your questions, I am interested.

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  5. pumpkinsaren'torange Registered Senior Member

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    the point of it WAS him dieing. if he would have died rotting in a dungeon...then, so be it. he still would have accomplished his purpose.
     
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  7. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    But..but, but, but...he didn't die

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    He was resurrected...apparantly
     
  8. shinobi Junior Member Registered Senior Member

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    An interesting reply muscleman. May I ask a genuine question? Many people have suggested that Pilate's role in the crucifixion was "toned-down", (for want of a better phrase), and the blame switched to the Jews in order to make Christianity more acceptable to the Romans. Given that Pilate's role is not central to the argument of whether Jesus was the Son Of God, do you accept that this may be true or do you view the version in the Gospels as absolute?

    This isn't flame-bait I promise, I'm just interested in your view.
     
  9. yumyum The All Knowing.. I think Registered Senior Member

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    why is every thing spining. anyways jesus died 2000 years ago get over it you cant prove or disprove god is real, so show me tageable evidencd oh you cant o well then sorry then bye bye.


    bye the way im drunk right know.
     
  10. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Mussels

    Jesus allowed it to happen

    Allowed what to happen ? He obviously wasn't in control of his destiny which at that time was in the hands of Pilate.

    So dont thank Pilate, thank God who keeps His promise and DOES things with GREAT LOVE

    This, along with most everything else you've said up to this point, has nothing to do with my question. Quit ranting and stick to the point.

    Again about the roman empire being in power...blah blah blah...

    Again, you've said nothing in regards to the question. Please try paying attention and stop staring at those little shiny things.

    So your "if" thing isnt working, sorry Q but nice try.

    You mean to tell me that your sermon on the mount was supposed to represent some sort of argument ? You typed many a word, but said nothing of value.

    Hey try again and post your questions, I am interested.

    Instead, why don't you just sit in the corner and mumble to yourself. I'm sure you'll have a nice conversation which you alone will understand.

    Pumpykins

    if he would have died rotting in a dungeon...then, so be it. he still would have accomplished his purpose.

    How is that possible ? He would have been tossed in a dark hole somewhere never to see the light of day. Everyone would have forgotten about him after some time and most likely would never hear of his death, which may not have occurred for some years afterwards.

    He could have also been sent to a slave galley ship. Perhaps to row alongside Ben Hur.

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  11. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    shinobi

    Given that Pilate's role is not central to the argument of whether Jesus was the Son Of God, do you accept that this may be true or do you view the version in the Gospels as absolute?

    I think Pilate was the key. The decision to crucify rest solely with him. He was never one to be badgered into anything.

    yumyum

    bye the way im drunk right know

    What are you drinking ? I'm sipping Demerara rum with a slice of lime and using a small stick of cane sugar as a stir stick. Yum-Yum.
     
  12. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Muscleman,

    Ahh what the heck I’ll try yet again.

    So he knows the future right?

    So at the moment of creation he would know every event that will ever take place right up to the end of time, right?

    Now since he created everything and knows with perfect knowledge every detail that is to follow then everything will have been perfectly pre-determined. In short God will be directly responsible for every event that will occur since he made it that way.

    This is exactly the same process that takes place when I write a computer program and start it running. The program has no choice but to do exactly what I programmed, and because I control all the inputs I will have perfect knowledge of exactly what the program will do. This isn’t prediction; this will be certain knowledge.

    If God created the universe and knows with perfect knowledge everything that is going to happen then everything will have been pre-determined from the beginning of time. All beings are committed to follow this pre-determined set of events. Free will cannot exist under such conditions. In this sense all humans would effectively be robotic automatons just following a pre-set program.

    If your god exists and has the properties you describe then human free will is impossible.

    If human free will is true then your god, as defined, simply can’t exist.

    Cris
     
  13. muscleman Banned Banned

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    Cris before answering yur question, first and foremost I feel obligated to say something, I completely understand why peeps are atheist (I was one b4). I can understand and even relate to your reasons. I used to be a immature and take things the way it is givenm to me without researching it more. God is just made up because were bored. People who prays are delusional and hallucinating. We wish of heaven because our life sucks on earth (even though rich and wealthy ppl believes of heaven), christians are brainwashed but atheist arent (LOL), bible is a lie and all miracles as well, they are just "Mythology", founding fathers are atheists, america didnt become succesfull because christians died for this country (lies one after another) etc. etc. I was like this until I experience something different.... called the truth...


    About your answer, your question has been an ongoing questions for centuries, this was a long debate in the christian community, How can God know all things, even the future, for if that was the case, then there is no freewill and He is fully responsible for our actions...

    "Freewill" is according to our actions "Knowledge" is according to God, from present to the future. We adhere to freewill because we have no clue of the event that is to come, so we live according to our judgment, this is called freewill. We will be talking doctrines of the faith, be mature and hold yourself back in saying "your hallucinating", ok?

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    Now before everything else in the doctrine of the faith, there were "spirits". Angels as what they call it, Lucifer being the head of the spirits. When God created Adam and Eve, they were designed to be obedient and serve Him. Now Lucifer's pride grew as God gave him more authority, he was kicked out of "heavens" the name of God's place, as punishment for HIS ACTIONS and his followers went with him. He became a wanderer everywhere not knowing where to go, Lucifer in an attempt to anger God then tried to decieve adam and eve into betraying God. Ever since then Lucifer found this to be effective idea in giving God pain, because He cannot directly defeat God, he found us to be a good tool for revenge, ever since then human suffering came into this world and God shared that with us, the devil started it all (please be mature for a while and stop saying "oh blaim it on the devil delusional guy", LOL).

    Now did God knows all things before it happened? Yes He did, it is silly to say that the spirits of the devil can predict the future but God cant (This isnt really "prediciton" but pure knowledge). However His knowledge of it has nothing to do with its responsibility.

    YOU ARE RIGHT, GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DESIGNING BEINGS WITH JUDGMENT AND FREEWILL, FROM SPIRITS WE CALL "ANGELS" TO HUMANS. WHAT IS THE RESULT OF THIS GOD'S DESIGN? GOOD WORKS AND AT THE SAME TIME BAD WORKS. BUT GOD DIDNT ACT ON THOSE ACTIONS, WE DID, HE ONLY CREATED FREEWILL AND JUDGMENT AND FROM THERE WE TOOK OVER, EVEN THOUGH EVERY ACTIONS IN THE FUTURE GOD KNOWS. GIFTS CAN BE ABUSED OR USED PROPERLY, HALF AND HALF CHANCE. THERE IS INDEED GOOD THINGS THAT COMES OUT OF OUR FREEWILL AND THE ANGEL'S, BUT THERES ALSO BAD ONES, BUT DID GOD DO ALL THESE? NO! BUT WHO DESIGNED THE FREEWILL AND JUDGMENT WHICH RESULTED IN GOOD AND BAD DEEDS? GOD DID...PERIOD..WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION HIM OF HIS DECISIONS? DID YOU WANT GOD TO CREATE ROBOTS AND LOVE HIM BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO CHOICE? SO WHAT IF GOD WANTS TO CREATE BEINGS WITH JUDGMENT WHO LOVES HIM UNCONDITIONALLY BY CHOICE AND NOT BY FORCE, WHO ARE YOU TO TELL HIM WHAT TO DO. YOU CAN EITHER REJECT HIM OR LOVE HIM, HE DOESNT WANT YOU TO REJECT HIM FOR THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU ARE DESIGNED FOR, HE WANTS YOU TO LOVE HIM FOR THAT IS THE REASON WHY YOU AND THE ANGELS ARE DESIGNED FOR. PERIOD.
     
  14. muscleman Banned Banned

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    By the way, dont use the computer program as analogy because unlike God, we have no created computers with its own independent judgment and freewill, thats a bad analogy, we make decisions for ourselves and make our own judgment, computers doesnt.
     
  15. Lady Banned Banned

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    [


    Q,

    ** Pontius found no evil in him yet let him be killed, however, the crucifixion or atonement was the purpose of Christ's birth, with or without Pilate it would have occured


    ** Cruelty is sin?


    what do think may have occurred if the Romans had not come to power


    ** Egyptian rulers
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2002
  16. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Lady

    the crucifixion or atonement was the purpose of Christ's birth, with or without Pilate it would have occured

    Could you please explain how it would have occurred if Pilate did not crucify Christ ? What if he placed him in prison ? What if, by some chance, Pilate let him go ?

    Egyptian rulers

    That's not exactly the answer I was looking for. The question was not intended to find out what other civilizations may have come to power, but instead, what would have happened if the Romans had not come to power ? Would the atonement have been necessary ? Was the reason the atonement allegedly took place because the Romans were in power or was it because of the sins of evildoers in general ?
     
  17. Lady Banned Banned

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    k2iginally posted by (Q) [/i]





    That's not exactly the answer I was looking for. The question was not intended to find out what other civilizations may have come to power, but instead, what would have happened if the Romans had not come to power ? Would the atonement have been necessary ? Was the reason the atonement allegedly took place because the Romans were in power or was it because of the sins of evildoers in general ? [/B][/QUOTE]



    ** . If the Jews had recognized Christ would there being a Crucifixion? Just as we can't control what the next day brings nor could Pilate contol his allotted role in history,nevertheless, the atonement is for evil in general, all seven church ages, all walks of life.

    ** If the sacrifice was durning our era perhaps Hilter would have been Pilate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2002
  18. yumyum The All Knowing.. I think Registered Senior Member

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    wow I dont rem posting here but any way we were drinking crown and coke but its monday now two days later. so...

    If jesus would have died or thrown in jail some one would have come along and made up something simmlar to christanty and we be in the same boat I think religon was going to happen no matter what would have been done people were ignorant back then well most of them anyway but its time to move one now we have a thing called science get used to it. If the romans had not have come to power and all that I think pagan belifes would have stuck around longer. Why did god create us if he knows whats going to happen then he knows whos going to hell before there born so why not just send us all to heaven or hell and skip life. If he created us to worship him well how vain.
     
  19. Firefly Registered Senior Member

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    Interesting thread, I was dying to mention the free will arguement, though Cris did it far more eloquently than I could've.

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    Though ... is it me, or have a whole load of posts be edited or deleted on this thread? (Which later seem to have been quoted??)

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  20. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Lady

    nor could Pilate contol his allotted role in history

    In other words, no free will. I find that hard to believe since it is in each and every one of us, the means to control our own destinies. Pilate was a powerful Roman and was married to the granddaughter of the Emperor Augustus and the illegitimate daughter of Tiberius’ third wife Claudia. He was arrogant, proud, hot-tempered, cruel and obstinate. His character certainly fits the corrupt thugs who were the cronies of Tiberius’ lieutenant. He certainly had control over more than just his destiny.

    the atonement is for evil in general

    So the atonement occurred not because of what was happening in Rome, but because all the evil in the world was culminating to this point in time and needed to be addressed ?

    If the sacrifice was durning our era perhaps Hilter would have been Pilate

    I understand where you're going with this statement however, I don't think Hitler is a good example, nor do I think that the early mid-twentieth century is a plausible timeframe. In other words, its not likely the atonement would pull the wool over everyone's eyes in this day and age. But of course, there are still a lot of gullible people in the world.
     
  21. Lady Banned Banned

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    ** Centuries may have passed but a infinite God can't go anywhere?
     
  22. daktaklakpak God is irrelevant! Registered Senior Member

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    Why would god feel pain? Is that a weakness?

    While one way you admit that you don't know the future so you have free will, but on the other hand, you also admit that you know someone(god) knows the future already. Then why don't you just admit that your free will is pure illusional?

    Just like some american parents said, "I taught my kid good values, but he went out and killed somebody, and that's not my problem. My kid has free will." And why would god want to create something to adore his glory? Loneliness or bored his live?

    If you recieve a threat that your kid will be killed by a car the moment he steps out the house in the next one hour time frame, what you are going to do? Follow god's example by warning him verbosely and watch him die because he has free will? Or confine him for one hour to protect your child like any normal human will do?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2002

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