Man tries to convert lions to Jesus, gets bitten (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6396422/)

46 year old.... geeeezzzz. He should know better.... :eek:
It's sad Christians are so illogical.

Still.... this cracks me up :D :D


"Science without Religion is lame. Religion without Science is blind."
--Albert Einstein

Man tries to convert lions to Jesus, gets bitten (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6396422/)

46 year old.... geeeezzzz. He should know better.... :eek:
It's sad Christians are so illogical.



"Science without Religion is lame. Religion without Science is blind."
--Albert Einstein

Perfectly logical, isn't it? Didn't Jesus say to preach the gospel to every creature? And didn't Paul say that the gospel had been proclaimed to every creature under heaven? A lion is a creature, isn't it? ;) People can think the ending of Mark is not genuine, which some do (and I personally do also), and I do highly doubt animals were meant to be included in the words "every creature", so I'll try to be fair.

Video (http://uk.mediaframe.news.yahoo.com/launch?lid=wmv-56-s.8615399,wmv-100-s.8615400,wmv-300-s.8615402,rnv-56-s.8615403,rnv-100-s.8615404,rnv-300-s.8615405&.small=1&.intl=uk&c=dualpane&dw=http://uk.news.yahoo.com/reutersv/rightpane.html&f=96284754&a=0,30)

You might have to adjust settings to your particular connection.

Perfectly logical, isn't it?
No.

Didn't Jesus say to preach the gospel to every creature?
No.


And didn't Paul say that the gospel had been proclaimed to every creature under heaven?
No.

A lion is a creature, isn't it? ;)
Yes.

People can think the ending of Mark is not genuine, which some do (and I personally do also), and I do highly doubt animals were meant to be included in the words "every creature", so I'll try to be fair.
The end of Mark has nothing to do with preaching Christianity to animals.

No.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Col 1:25 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


The end of Mark has nothing to do with [B]preaching Christianity to animals.

I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that someone could get the idea that "every creature" means just that. That is what the verses say. You can say they actually mean something different than what they appear to say, and I in fact agree with you in that, but that doesn't change what they do appear to say.

So the guy who was trying to preach to the lion didn't get his idea out of thin air, did he?

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:15-16
"15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. "

Two things here:
1) the word is "creation". And I think it depends a lot on the translation. We need to searcj the original greek text.
2) do animals "believe"? :eek:

Col 1:25 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
You got this quote wrong. Here is the right passage:
Col 1:21-23
"21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. "

Animals have faith and free will?

I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that someone could get the idea that "every creature" means just that.
That's why I'm saying Christians need logic. I know what you are saying. I agree with you.

That is what the verses say. You can say they actually mean something different than what they appear to say, and I in fact agree with you in that, but that doesn't change what they do appear to say.
If you read in context there is no problem.

So the guy who was trying to preach to the lion didn't get his idea out of thin air, did he?
He certainly didn't. But if he was logical, he wouldn't have done that.

Btw.... Just some referance for scriptures....:
http://www.biblegateway.com/

You got this quote wrong. Here is the right passage:


I pasted the verse from blueletterbible.com but I put in the verse number and I guess I got it wrong. I agree with you. He wasn't being very logical. Some, not all, allegedly Christian groups don't want to rely on "logic" though.. like people who supposedly handle snakes based on the ending of Mark. Those types of "Christians" give Christianity a bad name in my opinion.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Col 1:25 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;




I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that someone could get the idea that "every creature" means just that. That is what the verses say. You can say they actually mean something different than what they appear to say, and I in fact agree with you in that, but that doesn't change what they do appear to say.

So the guy who was trying to preach to the lion didn't get his idea out of thin air, did he?

He didn't get it from that verse either. He put God to the test. He ran into the lion's den saying "Jesus will save me.". The man was tempting God to save Him. The man was lucky he was not killed. He should thank God he was not killed. It was a silly thing to do. I hope he has learnt his lesson.

peace

c20

c20H25N3o: The man was tempting God to save Him. The man was lucky he was not killed. He should thank God he was not killed. It was a silly thing to do. I hope he has learnt his lesson.
*************
M*W: What about the snake handlers of Appalachia? These folks really believe that if they handle snakes and do not die from a venomous bite, they are saved!

c20H25N3o: The man was tempting God to save Him. The man was lucky he was not killed. He should thank God he was not killed. It was a silly thing to do. I hope he has learnt his lesson.
*************
M*W: What about the snake handlers of Appalachia? These folks really believe that if they handle snakes and do not die from a venomous bite, they are saved!

They should just thank God when they dont die. This is all I say.

peace

c20

Mark 16:17: And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18: they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."
true xians can do this c20, so the man should of had no problem.

you think he was testing your god. if he was testing it, he was clearly wrong about it being with him was'nt he.
deuteronomy 6:16 Do not test the Lord your God as you tested [Him] at Massah.( saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?)so if it was'nt with him, then is it any where else to be found.

M*W: What about the snake handlers of Appalachia? These folks really believe that if they handle snakes and do not die from a venomous bite, they are saved!People will believe any manner of insane things. The "snake handlers" base their practices upon this:

Mark 16:16 - 18 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Which brings to mind an interesting test for anyone claiming to be a "believer".

;)

~Raithere

Sorry F451, you already got it.
I shouldn't have let my post sit so long before sumbitting it.

c2o whats a matter big cat, got your tongue.

c2o whats a matter big cat, got your tongue.

What is it that you would like me to respond to audible?

Thanks

c20

Seriously, Is there really anyone here who doesn't know the last paragraph of Mark (16:9-20) was added later?

Is there anyone here who doesn't know the NT was written in Greek so sometimes the English translation is not quite accurate (preaching to all creatures?!!) The word creature in Col 1:23 is from the Greek word Ktisis (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2937&version=kjv) which literally means all creation or everything. To take this literally would mean that Paul preached to the rocks and to the trees and to the dirt. When I say everyone, I don't mean everything that can be counted by the number one - every tree, every rock - I simply mean all people who could be included. Paul is saying that everyone in their known world had heard (of) the Gospel.

Mark 16:17: And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18: they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."
true xians can do this c20, so the man should of had no problem.

you think he was testing your god. if he was testing it, he was clearly wrong about it being with him was'nt he.
deuteronomy 6:16 Do not test the Lord your God as you tested [Him] at Massah.( saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?)so if it was'nt with him, then is it any where else to be found.
That's his point.

Newspapers said that the lions had been fed earlier in the day, otherwise the man might have been more seriously hurt ... or worse.

Jesus really saved the nut, otherwise the lions would have coverted him into their lunch.

That's his point.

:D hehe

1) the word is "creation". And I think it depends a lot on the translation. We need to searcj the original greek text.

Are lions not a part of 'creation', and thus just as important to preach to? I guess it's time christians started preaching to trees and flowers aswell.

2) do animals "believe"?

Of course they do, although you need to take that with faith. Still, if you can, prove to me that animals don't believe.

This is what you religious types like to spew on a regular basis is it not?

david f
I dont think theres meny people on these forums who did'nt know that.
but what does it matter if it was added later, the Bible is the word of God, as such infallible.
What!, Dont you the believe the Bible?.
then you aren't a True Christian; your a fraud.

"Science without Religion is lame. Religion without Science is blind."
--Albert Einstein

And in context Eistein wasn't referring to every religion but his own spiritual experiences, none of which included the concept of a personal god or childlike ideas like Christianity (taken from his quotes). His spiritual journey revolved around the wonder and magnificance revealed through the natural order of the universe via the laws of physics. From the Christian perspective Einstein was an atheist.

The translation here is that one needs to feel and experience the wonder of the universe that science can reveal, and not that there is any mystical supernatural forces at work anywhere.

C20,

They should just thank God when they dont die. This is all I say.

And what should those do who do die? Should they now thank their god for placing them in paradise or curse him for letting them die?

What does the Christian really want? To be in heaven with their god, or to be alive on Earth? Wouldn't your type of reasoning hope that your god would let you die so you can be with him and wouldn't you curse him if he lets you live?

Science is tinkering. The Creator of the photon smiles at the scientists pride. Really.


The translation here is that one needs to feel and experience the wonder of the universe that science can reveal, and not that there is any mystical supernatural forces at work anywhere.


Science is the discovery of nature by man, that human records may record the intricacies of God's creation in many many volumes of text.

What with nature having derived it's very being from the mouth of God, I find it amusing that you insist on their not being any supernatural forces at work here. Get some ointment for your eyes. They are closed shut. How many stars in the sky? Can you name them all? I tell you now God Himself has named every one! Each a unique name. Be gracious. He calls you 'son'.

peace

c20

And in context Eistein wasn't referring to every religion but his own spiritual experiences, none of which included the concept of a personal god or childlike ideas like Christianity (taken from his quotes). His spiritual journey revolved around the wonder and magnificance revealed through the natural order of the universe via the laws of physics. From the Christian perspective Einstein was an atheist.

The translation here is that one needs to feel and experience the wonder of the universe that science can reveal, and not that there is any mystical supernatural forces at work anywhere.
Wait until someone proves God with science....... :rolleyes: :D

;)


(Btw... I don't think that was really Einstein's idea. But in any case.....)

Wait until someone proves God with science....... :rolleyes: :D

;)


(Btw... I don't think that was really Einstein's idea. But in any case.....)

I can just see it now. Jesus will come back and they will drop their little notebooks and proclaim "Jesus Christ the Lord" and then promptly fall to their knees. Oh how man hates humility now. How man hates the thought that someone might be praised for paying the price for their lives, when man should just take the gift that was offered by God, His son clothed in humility and shame that man may know God's love for them. That man may not doubt an invisible God's love for them. That man may know their True Father and His Nature. The man Jesus who came as a human being, from the line of David to be an offering for sin. The wages of sin is death make no mistake here. And we have all been spared that death. We have died in Christ Jesus. We are also resurrected with Him to Glory. We are saved.

God bless you

c20

David F,
Seriously, Is there really anyone here who doesn't know the last paragraph of Mark (16:9-20) was added later?

Seriously, Is there really anyone here who doesn't know the whole of the new testament was written after living memory of of His life, teaching, and death?

There is so much nuanced discussion from Christians that interperate passages written 1000-1900 years ago. They invariably liken the cultural mores of the ancient world to the modern one. It is like the phrase 'turn the other cheek' which is an insult/challenge but turned into a pacifist expression.

That many can pick and choose passages that support their views is in no way news to those of us dudes that read the good news to see what is true.

Turn the other cheek works well as both a challenge and a prostration. Striking another's cheek in anger is what we must avoid.
But you know this surely? We reap what we sow.

peace

c20

C20,

Science is tinkering. The Creator of the photon smiles at the scientists pride. Really.

Not quite: Science is about discovery whereas religion is apathy and baseless false hope.

Science is the discovery of nature by man, that human records may record the intricacies of God's creation in many many volumes of text.

Science is how we move from ignorance to enlightenment, whereas religion is how we move from fantasy to ignorance.

What with nature having derived it's very being from the mouth of God,

Nature no more depends on the existence of gods than an ant depends on the Internet to find food.

I find it amusing that you insist on their not being any supernatural forces at work here.

So if it is so amusing you can easily demonstrate something supernatural then, right? Please do so.

Get some ointment for your eyes. They are closed shut.

It is not that my eyes are closed but that there is nothing to see. This is infinitely better than your life of deluded fantasy where you see things that are not there.

How many stars in the sky? Can you name them all? I tell you now God Himself has named every one! Each a unique name.

Excellent. Please show me this list. An Internet URL will do fine.

Be gracious.

To something that doesn’t exist? Somewhat pointless I think.

He calls you 'son'.

You should have realised by now that figments of your imagination cannot verbalise.

Truthseeker,

Wait until someone proves God with science.......

What makes you think that could ever occur?

(Btw... I don't think that was really Einstein's idea. But in any case.....)

You imply you have a deeper understanding of Einstein’s religiosity which I know you do not since you quoted him out of context. We know he had no patience for the personal god concepts of the larger religions so what do you think he meant by your quote?

c20: why are you laughing at truthseeker, because he's agreeing with fahrenheit.
whats funny.

I can just see it now. Jesus will come back and they will drop their little notebooks and proclaim "Jesus Christ the Lord" and then promptly fall to their knees.
They would like to do some experiments on him, ask few questions before deciding to fall on their knees, if he comes back.

if he comes back.

Soon!

cris
nice to see you again, you are however are floging a dead horse, if you think you could get though to c20, this person does not answer anything put to him, he thinks we all want saving.
it is easier just, to not give him the time of day, you only have to take a look around everybody has lost interest with his stupidity, we all like to give someone the benefit of the doubt. but he pasted that point a long time ago.
incidently I love your retorts.

incidently I love your retorts.

I love your sycophantic nature :D


Nature no more depends on the existence of gods than an ant depends on the Internet to find food.


Who does the ant depend upon to find food? Now you will say "The ant depends on no one. It is self sufficient" but if it is self sufficient why does it need to find food and why is the food there? It is for the ant of course! Who put it there? Now you will say "Nature of course. Nature put it there for the ant". Now I ask you WHY??????
How much more important are you than an ant!!!

You clever people, scientists and so on, you who despise me and ridicule me and mock me with pathetic names, you are here one minute and gone the next. You say "I am that I am" and then you die having not been able to change the day of your death by one single nanosecond. You are not God, you are man, son of dust and to dust you will return. I hear you say "We love death, we rejoice in death, we crave death" but you will not find it, instead you will find your children with hungry mouths asking their father for a loaf of bread, you will find your wives pleading with you for something new, your whole lives will be a frustration to you. Yes you will pray for death to come upon you to put you out of your misery, so that you do not have to face your families when they ask you for things. Your love for them is nothing without hope of life everlasting with them but you do not ask God for this. You rejoice in death instead, so that you may be seperated from the ones you love. How pleasant.

peace

c20

Musta..

nice to see you again, you are however are floging a dead horse, if you think you could get though to c20, this person does not answer anything put to him, he thinks we all want saving.
it is easier just, to not give him the time of day, you only have to take a look around everybody has lost interest with his stupidity, we all like to give someone the benefit of the doubt. but he pasted that point a long time ago.

Unfortunately such people are a real danger to the world and can and do gain political power, e.g. Bush. So while they are quite frustrating I feel ignoring them could also be a mistake – we must keep trying to make them see reason.

incidently I love your retorts.

Ha ha , just my way to combat stupidity.

Ha ha , just my way to combat stupidity.

And of the ant and it's food o' clever one?

awaiting an answer

c20

C20,

Who does the ant depend upon to find food? Now you will say "The ant depends on no one. It is self sufficient" but if it is self sufficient why does it need to find food and why is the food there? It is for the ant of course! Who put it there? Now you will say "Nature of course. Nature put it there for the ant". Now I ask you WHY??????

Well no I wouldn’t say anything like that. Both the ant and man are a part of nature. Nature is not something that is separate. As to the question of why – why must there be an answer? Once you realize that the question is foolish then you will see that religions that attempt to answer such a question are equally foolish.

How much more important are you than an ant!!!

Doesn’t that depend on the chosen value system?

You clever people, scientists and so on, you who despise me and ridicule me and mock me with pathetic names,

You’ll find I was merely responding to your own attempts to ridicule and despise us. Most religions and especially Christianity are essentially arrogant and condescending. Can you see your own unsavory stance in this?

you are here one minute and gone the next.

And this also applies to you doesn’t it?

You say "I am that I am" and then you die having not been able to change the day of your death by one single nanosecond.

Not quite. Through our search for knowledge and understanding via science we have managed to extend human lifespans by several hundred percent just in these past few millenia. Around 2000 years ago you were lucky if you reached the age of 30, now we expect nearer 3 times that age. Through science and technology I fully expect we will achieve unlimited lifespans within the next few decades.

You are not God, you are man, son of dust and to dust you will return.

Only if we accept the defeatist attitudes of the religionists like yourself. Fortunately there are enough of us who continue to strive to improve the human condition. Praying and depending on fantasy gods doesn’t help and never has achieved anything worthwhile.

I hear you say "We love death, we rejoice in death, we crave death" but you will not find it,

This is the cry of the religionist since they see death as a mystical gateway to paradise – the greatest illusion ever devised by man’s stupidity. As a naturalist I see life as the most precious commodity possible – you appear quite confused.

instead you will find your children with hungry mouths asking their father for a loaf of bread, you will find your wives pleading with you for something new, your whole lives will be a frustration to you.

Sounds like a scene from The Lord of the Rings – doesn’t appear to be relevant to real life.

Yes you will pray for death to come upon you to put you out of your misery, so that you do not have to face your families when they ask you for things.

Praying is a pointless activity and something I would not do. You appear to be trying to paint a dreary picture of life in a futile attempt to justify your defeatist religion. Why not cherish life and try to extend it rather than hope to die so you can meet your fantasy gods?

Your love for them is nothing without hope of life everlasting with them but you do not ask God for this.

Love, even momentary is worthwhile. Love does not depend on infinite life to have meaning. Understanding that death occurs and represents permanent non-existence is to accept reality, even though tragic. Holding the false hope that life continues in a fantasy supernatural realm is irresponsible and a tragic delusion.

You rejoice in death instead, so that you may be seperated from the ones you love. How pleasant.

You appear to have everything reversed and are quite confused. Defeating death is our greatest challenge and something that needs our urgent attention. It is the religionist that welcomes death as they foolishly believe that death is their entry to paradise.

C20,
You appear to have everything reversed and are quite confused. Defeating death is our greatest challenge and something that needs our urgent attention. It is the religionist that welcomes death as they foolishly believe that death is their entry to paradise.

I do not rejoice in death. Please let me state that for the record. I too like you welcome this life for the love that is in the world, the love of my children, the love of my wife. But I am not a fantasist as you would have me be. The human being begins as a seed. There is no need to tinker. You will never understand the code of life. Do you not see that for every thing you discover, it will open up new discoveries? For each unit of the code you discover, you will see that even that code is made up of another code and so on and so forth. As clever as you are you cannot begin to understand the mysteries of the human seed. You are scratching the outer layer of an onion, but if you keep chopping away at the onion you will just start to cry.
Your intellect will not allow you to give up. Pride will not allow you to say "This is too complicated for us. Some greater force must be at work here"
I tell you the truth, man will not discover the code of life for it is not permitted you. You hate the Christian scientist (David F for example) because they say "As amazing as the things are that we know, they all point to the fact that some higher intelligence is at work here"
Come on Cris, I am sure you are an academic genius but even you have to step down from your fantasy at some time. Can even the most prestigous scientist in the world create a butterfly from scratch? Could you have designed the ribosome from scratch? You want to say "But we are a part of Nature and Nature just is" and then you say "We are a part of nature and must change it to make it stronger". But it is a terrible arrogance and I mean that in a non personal sense. We Christians call that arrogance 'The spirit of the world'.
Let's just hypothesise for one moment that you did indeed manage to tinker with the human seed and reversed its will to die. Of course there would become a terrible population problem so you would then need to expand into the Universe. This is your plan. To boldly go etc etc. But what of those who have gone before you? Those lives that did die? Were those peoples lives for nothing? What of all the injustices done in the flesh? Do you just forget their names? Tell them it's unlucky for them? Do you not see that this is arrogance? To write off humans who have walked before you? And let's suppose you do master cold fusion or some other technology to perform space travel so that you can populate the Universe. What of law and order? Or will you change the human seed to produce flesh made from titanium or some other indestructable substance?
I love Star Trek, dont get me wrong but I know it's just a cool TV program for kids developed from fantasy. when the program is over, I have to go and make dinner and get my kids bathed and dressed for bed. I read them a story and kiss their little noses. They say "Gudnight dad" and I kiss them again giving them a little squeeze so they know how much I love them. Love is the greatest thing here Cris. Love is, was and will be. God is love and the spirit of love says "Thou shalt have no other gods but me".

God bless you

c20

Your intellect will not allow you to give up. Pride will not allow you to say "This is too complicated for us. Some greater force must be at work here"

This statement says it all really. The religious man has given up - which you clearly state yourself. Whereas, also according to yourself, intelligence does not give up. While there are 'complicated' things, the intelligent seek to find answer to it, instead of just throwing the towel in and assuming any old answer will do. "god did it" is the religious man's answer to everything, and shows the lack of intelligence that accompanies "giving up".

For millennia the religious have said "god did it", but haven't actually answered anything. In the meantime, intelligence says "I wonder how this happened", and goes about finding an answer to it.

Further to which, something currently being too complicated for us, in no way justifies or implies that the answer must be supernatural. While this was expected from people that did not know the realities to lightning, it is ludicrous to see someone in 2004 acting in the same manner.

c20H25N3o: I do not rejoice in death. Please let me state that for the record. I too like you welcome this life for the love that is in the world, the love of my children, the love of my wife.
*************
M*W: So what? We all strive to love and be loved. Do you think YOU are the only member on sciforums who wants and gives love?
*************
c20: But I am not a fantasist as you would have me be. The human being begins as a seed. There is no need to tinker.
*************
M*W: Don't quit your day job. You have no idea what you are talking about. We now understand biomedical technology enough to perform prenatal ultrasonography, amniocentesis, intrauterine corrective surgical manipulation of the growing fetus, and more.... There is plenty need to 'tinker' when tinkering would
ensure a healthy baby. But that's not all. We know how to use stem cells to rejuvenate damaged heart muscle that is in end-stage congestive heart failure. We can now repair motor and sensory neurons in the brain to cure Parkinson's disease as well as schizophrenia and depression. We can now implant stem cells into the diseased pancreas to cure diabetes. Tinkering with the cells of the human body (and our pets) life is becoming longer, and we are challenging death. Research is currently being done to transplant stem cells into the face and neck to rejuvenate our youthful appearance without going under the knife. I foresee that stem cells will be used to cure arthritis and bone disease without invasive surgeries. The best part of this new biomedicine technology is we don't have to kill embryos to do it. In the USA, scientists who received NIH grant funding are not allowed to use embryonic stem cells. However, private organizations such as GlaxoSmithKline and private hospitals CAN and DO utilize embryonic stem cells. The wonderful thing is that we can grow them right in the lab from scratch utilizing one's own bone marrow for stem cell transplantation. Only the ignorant believe this is a sin. Didn't Jesus promise 'everlasting life?'
*************
c20: You will never understand the code of life. Do you not see that for every thing you discover, it will open up new discoveries? For each unit of the code you discover, you will see that even that code is made up of another code and so on and so forth. As clever as you are you cannot begin to understand the mysteries of the human seed. You are scratching the outer layer of an onion, but if you keep chopping away at the onion you will just start to cry.
*************
M*W: Do you understand the code of life? What's wrong with discovering things that prompt further scientific research? Understanding the mysteries of the 'human seed' is what I do for a living. You only show your ignorance. Science is discovered without using religion. I feel certain that Cris is not just scratching an onion. Your analogy is childish.
*************
c20: Your intellect will not allow you to give up. Pride will not allow you to say "This is too complicated for us. Some greater force must be at work here"
*************
M*W: Our intellect and our pride are two different concepts. The only greater force in science is the intellect. The definition of 'pride' is broad. Some people may be proud they lie and steal from others. Pride in science is honorable.
*************
c20: I tell you the truth, man will not discover the code of life for it is not permitted you.
*************
M*W: Man has already discovered the code of life, and it is definitely permitted to be known by all.
*************
c20: You hate the Christian scientist (David F for example) because they say "As amazing as the things are that we know, they all point to the fact that some higher intelligence is at work here"
*************
M*W: No one hates David F. You are putting words in our mouths. You are an evil person, because you spread hate.
*************
c20: Come on Cris, I am sure you are an academic genius but even you have to step down from your fantasy at some time.
*************
M*W: Scientists never step down from their fantasy, because fantasy becomes reality. Cris is more qualified to discuss such matters, but you simply cannot understand anything beyond your religion. You're still living in the Dark Ages. I pity your children.
*************
c20: Can even the most prestigous scientist in the world create a butterfly from scratch? Could you have designed the ribosome from scratch? You want to say "But we are a part of Nature and Nature just is" and then you say "We are a part of nature and must change it to make it stronger". But it is a terrible arrogance and I mean that in a non personal sense. We Christians call that arrogance 'The spirit of the world'.
*************
M*W: You 'christians' are what's wrong with the world.
*************
c20: Let's just hypothesise for one moment that you did indeed manage to tinker with the human seed and reversed its will to die. Of course there would become a terrible population problem so you would then need to expand into the Universe. This is your plan. To boldly go etc etc. But what of those who have gone before you? Those lives that did die? Were those peoples lives for nothing? What of all the injustices done in the flesh? Do you just forget their names? Tell them it's unlucky for them? Do you not see that this is arrogance? To write off humans who have walked before you? And let's suppose you do master cold fusion or some other technology to perform space travel so that you can populate the Universe. What of law and order? Or will you change the human seed to produce flesh made from titanium or some other indestructable substance?
*************
M*W: Tinkering with the human seed has been done since the beginning of time. It's not just new science. The 'oldest profession' was not prostitution. It was midwifery. When Moses was on the Sinai, the Habiru prevented pregnancies in their camels by inserting a pomegranate pit into the camel's uterus so the camel wouldn't be pregnant in the caravan. In the ancient world contraceptives were used in women and men. Ointments made of olive oil, honey, cedar resin, balsam tree juice, lead, myrtle salve, alum, gums, resins, oil of roses and figs were used to prevent pregnancy. In men, the concoction of the above was rubbed on the tip of the penis as well to kill the sperm upon exit.

Abortions were also common in those days. Ox bile, cow parsnip, myrtle, wallflower, bitter legumes were molded into seeds the size of pomegranate pits and inserted into the vagina. Linseed, fenugreek, mallow, marsh mallow, wormwood, absenthium, pepper, honey and myrrh in a long bath inserting this concoction into the vagina while drinking sour wine and eating pungent foods was sure to expel the fetus from the vagina.

Back in ancient days, women had as many babies as they could to help with growing crops and cultivation of the land. It was expected of them. But, they also had these concoctions the midwives used to prevent pregnancy or induce abortions. In the Dark Ages, European midwives placed twigs into the uterus as an abortificant. They soon discovered that seaweed (kelp) called Laminaria worked best, especially if the fetus was more than 12 weeks of age. Believe it or not, laminaria is still used today! There was no 'overpopulation' then, and there is no 'overpopulation' today. The world is not settled evenly.
*************
c20: I love Star Trek, dont get me wrong but I know it's just a cool TV program for kids developed from fantasy.
*************
M*W: I'm not a Trekkie, but I have seen some of the programs, and they were not made just for kids. The stories have morals, and I know plenty of adults who follow Star Trek.
*************
c20: when the program is over, I have to go and make dinner and get my kids bathed and dressed for bed. I read them a story and kiss their little noses. They say "Gudnight dad" and I kiss them again giving them a little squeeze so they know how much I love them. Love is the greatest thing here Cris. Love is, was and will be. God is love and the spirit of love says "Thou shalt have no other gods but me".
*************
M*W: How arrogantly you think that those of us who are atheists don't have love in our lives nor can give love. That's absurd! And we definitely DON'T have any gods we worship! Christianity teaches arrogance like an adrenaline rush. You're not experiencing the truth, but you're arrogantly trying to convince us that you are the only one who is loved or who can love! Give it up! There is no true love to be found in christianity! christianity requires conditional love. All religions require conditions for love. It's only atheists who give love and receive love genuinely without any conditions. If you think atheists do not deserve the cycle of love, then you are a hypocrite, and a lost one, at that.

Why don't you just stick to the things you know. Christianity is NOT your strong suit. You are less educated in christianity than everybody on this forum.

What makes you think that could ever occur?
A brain.


:D Sorry I couldn't resist..... :D

You imply you have a deeper understanding of Einstein’s religiosity which I know you do not since you quoted him out of context.
How was that out of context?
Besides.... quotes apart, its shown that he was a very intuitive guy, which makes it very likely that he actually believed in God (or a god).

We know he had no patience for the personal god concepts of the larger religions so what do you think he meant by your quote?
I don't think he actually believed in any specific religion, but it does seem he believed in a greater power, even if he couldn't understand it. Which is very close to my case....

... it is ludicrous to see someone in 2004 acting in the same manner.

2004 years since what?

Matthew 18:1-4: Jesus again talked to his disciples, saying "...whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

[Matthew 5:10-12]
"Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

I'm just as happy as a pig in poop ;)

2004 years since what?

Since? Try reading it again.

Matthew 18:1-4: Jesus again talked to his disciples, saying "...whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."


Ah.. the desire of the religious man to become "the greatest". I suppose it stands to reason that a man who happens to find himself low on "the ladder of life", would concoct a 'next life' (c) where he then becomes better than those who were successful in this one.

You know, I have always found this need for fame and recognition quite bizarre. Can people not just be happy being who they are, regardless to how others perceive them? Is it that bad to know you'll be forgotten eventually? Our positions on this ladder can come from many things.. from hard work to getting lucky, but it doesn't change who we are to ourselves, who we are to our loved ones. Those who desire to be greater only do so because they feel lesser within themselves.

I sincerely wish you and your kind the courage and the strength to free yourself from your chains.

[Matthew 5:10-12]
"Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

And again.. It would only be those who have such abjectly miserable lives that would 'create' such a notion. Yes, life sucks for some people.. Instead of hoping it will get better in the next one, or the one after that, or the one after that.. I would sincerely urge people to find the courage within themselves to make their lives more enriched, more successful, and more meaningful.

I'm just as happy as a pig in poop

Although I could question how happy a pig in poop really is, I would prefer to ask you just how happy you really are. All this talk of persecution shows an inner hatred, and sorrow for your life as a human. If there is a 'next life' (c) for you, I hope you do better than you apparently have in this one.

Since? Try reading it again.


What event signified zero before we incremented in earth year cycles to record 2004?

Try reading it again. You get an extra point for giving me the latin and the english meaning for A.D.

Thanks

c20

C20,

I do not rejoice in death.

Why not? Doesn’t death mean entry to paradise for you? Why would you not welcome death?

I too like you welcome this life for the love that is in the world, the love of my children, the love of my wife.

But don’t you believe that that is just a short temporary phase for you? Wouldn’t you all be better dead and living altogether in a spiritual eternal heavenly paradise free of earthy burdens and worries and basking in the glow and glory of your deity?

Why is earthly life so important for you as a Christian? For me it is vitally important because I believe it is all I have.

But I am not a fantasist as you would have me be.

With zero evidence for it the supernatural is entirely a fantasy. Show some real evidence or accept that you are fantasizing.

The human being begins as a seed. There is no need to tinker.

Human life has evolved through a long series of largely random, chaotic and entirely undirected events and processes. The result is an inefficient fragile organism subject to rapid decay with little defence against external dangers, poisons, radiation, bacteria, and many diseases. It is not that we should tinker but more importantly that we should engage in an urgent massive redesign. With current research in genetic engineering, stem cells, anti-aging, mind uploading, and neuro-enhancements, we find we are on the verge of significant changes to the human form that should be openly welcomed, although for many it might seem frightening. The target should be open-ended lifespans with very high quality of life.

You will never understand the code of life.

Only someone who can see the future can have authority to say never. Do you qualify? And what the heck is the code of life?

Do you not see that for every thing you discover, it will open up new discoveries?

Excellent.

For each unit of the code you discover, you will see that even that code is made up of another code and so on and so forth.

What is your evidence to support such an infinite regression?

As clever as you are you cannot begin to understand the mysteries of the human seed.

Why not?

Pride will not allow you to say "This is too complicated for us. Some greater force must be at work here"

It isn’t pride but extensive past evidence of discovery that shows us that if we seek then we discover. You are encouraging the defeatism of religion again – the attitude that your god is the answer to everything and that we are wasting our time trying to improve ourselves.

I tell you the truth, man will not discover the code of life for it is not permitted you.

Why is that truth? What is your evidence? Are you so frightened that we will create life and that that will destroy your fantasies of creator gods?

You hate the Christian scientist (David F for example) because they say "As amazing as the things are that we know, they all point to the fact that some higher intelligence is at work here"

There are no facts that point to a higher intelligence. Do you have an example of such a claim?

Can even the most prestigous scientist in the world create a butterfly from scratch?

Stating what we can’t do now has little to no bearing on what we can do in the future.

Could you have designed the ribosome from scratch?

Can we do it in the future and would we want to? I suspect we can eventually devise something more efficient and superior.

You want to say "But we are a part of Nature and Nature just is" and then you say "We are a part of nature and must change it to make it stronger". But it is a terrible arrogance and I mean that in a non personal sense. We Christians call that arrogance 'The spirit of the world'.

It is not arrogance to change something that doesn’t work very well. It is arrogant to assume that humans are so perfect that they deserve special attention from a super being.

Let's just hypothesise for one moment that you did indeed manage to tinker with the human seed and reversed its will to die.

Biological organisms have no such thing as a will to die. Complex biological organisms tend to decay through wear and tear. Very simple organisms like bacteria do not age and will only die if they cannot find nutrition. Decay in complex organisms is simply the result of inefficient maintenance and repair sub-systems, all of which we should be able to improve through drugs, genetics and advanced technology.

Of course there would become a terrible population problem so you would then need to expand into the Universe.

No not necessarily. We’d need to take responsibility for the limited planetary resources and strictly control breeding rates and hence control population size. But yes, the universe is huge and there should be every reason to move out into it. With unlimited lifespans it would also not be so bad that it will take centuries to reach other star systems.

But what of those who have gone before you? Those lives that did die? Were those peoples lives for nothing? What of all the injustices done in the flesh? Do you just forget their names? Tell them it's unlucky for them? Do you not see that this is arrogance? To write off humans who have walked before you?

What has gone before cannot be undone but that is no reason not to move forward with new developments into the future for those that have survived. Your thinking and claims for arrogance seem somewhat bizarre on this point.

What of law and order?

Doubtless it will be based on some semblance of reason as it is today. Not sure what issue you are raising here.

Or will you change the human seed to produce flesh made from titanium or some other indestructable substance?

Ideally if mind-uploading succeeds then we should be able to dispense entirely with biology. It is our sentient intelligence that needs to survive, i.e. the neural networks that comprise our brain. The storage medium is largely irrelevant.

Love is the greatest thing here Cris. Love is, was and will be.

Love is an emotional state that can be experienced like any emotion. It is pleasant rather than unpleasant but otherwise has no great importance. But without survival love is meaningless.

God is love and the spirit of love says "Thou shalt have no other gods but me".

So God is a collection of specific neural-chemical reactions then? And apparently pompous, selfish, arrogant, and recognizes the existence of other gods. Very curious statements for you to make.

Why not? Doesn’t death mean entry to paradise for you? Why would you not welcome death?
That's a very good point. Unfortunately, most "Christians" seem to forget about that. Most "Christians" are too focused on fear, and they cannot see that their fear has no base whatsoever. It completely contradicts their belief. This is true particularly to Catholicism, because catholicism is based on fear. Other kinds of "Christians" tend to not focus on fear. Definetely not on the same degree.

What event signified zero before we incremented in earth year cycles to record 2004?

Try reading it again. You get an extra point for giving me the latin and the english meaning for A.D.

Thanks


Eh? Lol, what has any of this got to do with what I said? Read it again, and kindly don't reply until you understand it.

I do not rejoice in death. Please let me state that for the record. I too like you welcome this life for the love that is in the world, the love of my children, the love of my wife.
c20

Luke.14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." and so jesus said. so you should rejoice in death.


I love your sycophantic nature
c20

I'm surprised you could even spell sycophantic, but is'nt that what you doing with god/jesus.
have you read the parable of hank.

Luke.14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." and so jesus said. so you should rejoice in death.




I'm surprised you could even spell sycophantic, but is'nt that what you doing with god/jesus.
have you read the parable of hank.

Jesus is worthy because of His actions. His actions speak louder than His words in my book.

c20H25N3o: Jesus is worthy because of His actions. His actions speak louder than His words in my book.
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M*W: Jesus'actions were written by Paul. Jesus' words were written by Paul - OR - you can believe what the Gnostic Gospel writers said, because Jesus actually spoke to them first-hand.

What event signified zero before we incremented in earth year cycles to record 2004?

Try reading it again. You get an extra point for giving me the latin and the english meaning for A.D.

Thanks

c20

Because to people who have knowledge of what "history" records, time was based on Jesus' birth for much of "Western Civilization". If you go to a Muslim country, it's based on an event in Muhammad's life. There are other calendars for other countries.

Christianity basically controlled Europe for 1000 years. It doesn't necessarily mean very much, except that people decided to base a calendar off of Jesus' supposed birth year. Roman time was based on the founding of Rome by Romulus and Remes (or something like that).

To the Jews, time I think is based on the creation of the world, we're supposedly in year 5000 something.

I think it's Anno Domini, with "in the year of our Lord" being its meaning.

My point was simply that people of several thousand years ago, who knew little about the world, had an excuse to make a face out of phenomenon such as lightning. I then went further to state that someone who lives in 2004 does not have that same excuse.

My point was simply that people of several thousand years ago, who knew little about the world, had an excuse to make a face out of phenomenon such as lightning. I then went further to state that someone who lives in 2004 does not have that same excuse.

I know. I was pointing out that the year number signifies something. It is interesting in light of the discussion and most relevant. Why is it so?

Thanks

c20

I know. I was pointing out that the year number signifies something. It is interesting in light of the discussion and most relevant. Why is it so?

Not only does it not have any relevance to the thread topic, but it has no relevance to what I was saying either. If you want to know why we count the years as we do, I'm sure google will provide an answer. However, in either case it still gives no excuse for people who live in this day and age acting like they're as knowledgeless as ancient shepherds.

Not only does it not have any relevance to the thread topic, but it has no relevance to what I was saying either. If you want to know why we count the years as we do, I'm sure google will provide an answer. However, in either case it still gives no excuse for people who live in this day and age acting like they're as knowledgeless as ancient shepherds.

The point was that in my world the 'in the year of our Lord' means something to me. Look the title of this thread is deleberately flaming. Do you blame me for defending my faith here under the banner of Religion? I happen to believe in the bible as do many other followers of this very popular religion. I follow it's teachings. I believe I live by grace. But grace is not something one can buy or trade off. It is an eternal gift. It cannot be bought.I am just a man, I have done good things and bad. I am in no way perfect. But I believe that Jesus died to show me that no matter what I had done, God would give up everything for me. I believe Jesus came as a human being and lived a life in the flesh. I believe He was tortured and put to death in the most excruciating way possible. You cannot believe the pain He must have suffered. He was innocent. He was an innocent. His love is God. He loves God Almighty. The Spirit of God is poured out on believers.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Look.. You stated that some things are too complicated for us, and then - as a result to that - somehow equated it to the answer "god must have done it", because some things are currently too complicated for us to understand in full.

I likened this to ancient people giving a god excuse for lightning, simply because it was too complicated for them at that time.

While I can understand why ancient people did it, the modern day person has no excuse. While you can believe in a god if it is your nature to do so, it's really quite naive to say "god did it" everytime you find something too complicated to understand.

He was tortured and put to death in the most excruciating way possible. You cannot believe the pain He must have suffered. He was innocent. He was an innocent.

Many innocent people die in many painful ways every single day of the week. Shit happens. Of course, god should have known better than to place his son on earth during that particular time. Why not try now? Do you think he would be tortured now? Most likely he'd be given some pills and a nice looking white jacket, but he wouldn't be tortured or killed.

Look.. You stated that some things are too complicated for us, and then - as a result to that - somehow equated it to the answer "god must have done it", because some things are currently too complicated for us to understand in full.

I likened this to ancient people giving a god excuse for lightning, simply because it was too complicated for them at that time.

While I can understand why ancient people did it, the modern day person has no excuse. While you can believe in a god if it is your nature to do so, it's really quite naive to say "god did it" everytime you find something too complicated to understand.



Many innocent people die in many painful ways every single day of the week. Shit happens. Of course, god should have known better than to place his son on earth during that particular time. Why not try now? Do you think he would be tortured now? Most likely he'd be given some pills and a nice looking white jacket, but he wouldn't be tortured or killed.

But if he wasn't put to death and risen from death our faith would be worthless. It is eternal life we seek and we find it in Him. This is our faith.

peace

c20

The point was that in my world the 'in the year of our Lord' means something to me. Look the title of this thread is deleberately flaming.

Are you insinuating that you don't need logic? That is obviously what this says..

But if he wasn't put to death and risen from death our faith would be worthless. It is eternal life we seek and we find it in Him. This is our faith.

And so by your own admission, the whole 'jesus thing' isn't about love but about the prizes?

Further to which, you're almost saying that mankind had absolutely no choice but to kill him - not because that's what they wanted to do, but that's what god thought was required. As such, you liken man to a puppet on a string. As this is the case, we're all naturally innocent anyway, given that we only do what we do due to god's master plan and control.

But if he wasn't put to death and risen from death our faith would be worthless. It is eternal life we seek and we find it in Him. This is our faith.

peace

c20
Why? Do you mean that if Jesus had not supposedly risen from the dead, you would have no faith? Interesting. Especially in light of the fact that people believed in God and Gods prior to the birth of Christ.

One would think that if you believed in God, you wouldn't need a miracle such as one supposedly performed by Jesus to justify your faith.

Why? Do you mean that if Jesus had not supposedly risen from the dead, you would have no faith? Interesting. Especially in light of the fact that people believed in God and Gods prior to the birth of Christ.

One would think that if you believed in God, you wouldn't need a miracle such as one supposedly performed by Jesus to justify your faith.

It is an excellent observation but true nonetheless. If Jesus was not raised from the dead then the bible would be a lie and I would have no faith. I would be dead. No hope. There would be no God. Jesus was innocent. For God to have allowed Him to remain in the grave would have been evil. I would not love God if He rejected Jesus' life. I would have said that Jesus died for nothing.

peace

c20

It is an excellent observation but true nonetheless. If Jesus was not raised from the dead then the bible would be a lie and I would have no faith. I would be dead. No hope. There would be no God. Jesus was innocent. For God to have allowed Him to remain in the grave would have been evil. I would not love God if He rejected Jesus' life. I would have said that Jesus died for nothing.

peace

c20
If Jesus was not raised from the dead, then the bible would tell a different story. It wouldn't mean that you'd have no faith. Your faith in your God would still be the same, would it not?

Why would God have rejected his son if he had remained buried? Don't Christians believe that everyone is a child of God, so if Jesus had remained in the grave, wouldn't he still have been God's son, like everyone else is God's child? Do you reject a parent for leaving their child in a grave after they have died? Do you classify those parents as evil? I don't reject my parents for leaving my sister in her grave, nor do I consider them evil for having done so, so why would you reject God for doing the same?

If Jesus had not been born at all, would there not still be a God? Is Jesus not God's son? So for there to have been a son of God, there would have to have been a God.

One never dies for nothing. One should look at the actions that one took during one's life and not the actions they took after their death to determine whether they have died for something. Had Jesus not risen from the dead, wouldn't his actions during his life still mean something to you?

I find it strange that you would only believe in your God for allowing his son to rise from the dead. God would still be God, whether he had a son or not. He would still be God if he had raised his son from the dead or not. Didn't your God exist before Jesus, and not just after?

Bells: Why? Do you mean that if Jesus had not supposedly risen from the dead, you would have no faith? Interesting. Especially in light of the fact that people believed in God and Gods prior to the birth of Christ.

One would think that if you believed in God, you wouldn't need a miracle such as one supposedly performed by Jesus to justify your faith.
*************
M*W: Without Paul's creation of the Jesus myth, there would be no such religion as christianity. Paul, being the mythological writer that he was known to be, molded his mythological dying demigod savior Jesus according to earlier beliefs in some 16 born of a virgin dying demigod saviors. Paul wouldn't have been able to sell the story of the simple Rabbi Jesus, so he embellished it quite a bit. The dying demigod savior had to rise again to make the myth believeable so the gentiles who knew the earlier pagan myths would simply have a newer god to add to their other household gods they believed in. Had Paul not existed, there would be no christianity. Jesus was a rabbi, not a christian. He was born, lived and died, a Jew. Paul was a myth writer who sold his stories to the Gentiles, because the Jews wouldn't accept his works as anything more than fiction. Why was Paul beheaded in Rome?

Thanks for your post.

If Jesus was not raised from the dead, then the bible would tell a different story. It wouldn't mean that you'd have no faith. Your faith in your God would still be the same, would it not?


No it would not. Too much evil would have gone unchecked. I demand justice


Why would God have rejected his son if he had remained buried? Don't Christians believe that everyone is a child of God, so if Jesus had remained in the grave, wouldn't he still have been God's son, like everyone else is God's child?


Yes, but we also believe in a God of justice. I do not want those who have commited evils to go unpunished. I accept that I too have commited evils and therefore need salvation too. If God had not raised Jesus who was innocent by all accounts then their would be no hope for anybody.


Do you reject a parent for leaving their child in a grave after they have died? Do you classify those parents as evil? I don't reject my parents for leaving my sister in her grave, nor do I consider them evil for having done so, so why would you reject God for doing the same?


Because Jesus' life and ministry would have been a total lie. He would have been whipped, scourged, beaten and nailed to a cross of wood for nothing. His suffering would have gone unnoticed. Another dead man. It would not be me rejecting God had Jesus not been resurrected, it would be God rejecting me.


If Jesus had not been born at all, would there not still be a God? Is Jesus not God's son? So for there to have been a son of God, there would have to have been a God.


Yes, but they would have rejected us that live on earth. There would have been no mercy for us sinners if Jesus had not come. This is why we say it is by grace we are saved. God is love. He was bound to save us. From the beginning He predicted man's victory when He said of the serpent, "You will bite man's heel but he will crush your head". Jesus crushed the curse of the serpent by offering His blood as a payment for us, man. It was acceptable to God as payment for all sin. We humbly claim the blood of Jesus and accept the free gift of eternal life.


One never dies for nothing. One should look at the actions that one took during one's life and not the actions they took after their death to determine whether they have died for something. Had Jesus not risen from the dead, wouldn't his actions during his life still mean something to you?


No, he would have been nothing more than a neat magician.


I find it strange that you would only believe in your God for allowing his son to rise from the dead. God would still be God, whether he had a son or not. He would still be God if he had raised his son from the dead or not. Didn't your God exist before Jesus, and not just after?

It is my belief that the Father and Son are of one purpose. God is love after all. If Jesus had not risen then the law of God would be a falsehood and we would all have to accept that we perish as sinners / free men whatever.

Thank you for asking good questions.

peace

c20 :m:

why do you xians keep saying "god is love" when it clearly is not.
it can only be that you dont know what love is yourselves, if you know what love is, you know god is'nt love.
I assume you have all read you bibles. how can any of you worship such an inherently evil thing.

Let me explain it please.

Human beings have rights. We are born innocent. Children. Beautiful. Born of woman. We enter the world and are placed on a breast. We suck at that breast and receive food to make us live. We begin our lives being loved. It is surely holy? But we die! How can something holy die? Ridiculous! But we do.
We start our lives being loved. Some babies have been shot, others raped and tortured but most of us start off being loved.
But there is evil in the world. We know this yet do not wish to take part in it. We are not killers or rapists or theives or blah blah. We are scholars and artists and musicians and trekkies and blah and blah. Most of us do all right. But it isn't really allright. Cos we die. Why do we die? Cos we all from the same seed. That's why. Same flesh. Same flesh and blood and theirfore ALL have sinned. ALL flesh has sinned. You are guilty by association. You must die. God raised Jesus up to show you His power. He was saying, "I have fulfilled the law, an innocent life for a life. Believe in Jesus and be at peace in your souls. Behold I give the Holy Spirit to those who believe on Him. I am coming soon!"

So be it. Come Lord Jesus.

peace

c20

Let me explain it please. We are born innocent ALL have sinned. You are guilty by association But there is evil in the world. You must die. duh if thats what you call a explaination for saying "god is love" WOW.
incidently I not afraid of dying, as I know it's inevitable, you make life the best for yourself and for all around you.
and I not a sinner, no free thinker is, so not alll have sinned ok.

duh if thats what you call a explaination for saying "god is love" WOW.
incidently I not afraid of dying, as I know it's inevitable, you make life the best for yourself and for all around you.
and I not a sinner, no free thinker is, so not alll have sinned ok.

Incidentally, by that "inspired" theology, we must only conclude that Jesus was born a sinner since He was born at least of a woman. Any arbitrary attempt to reconcile this difficulty can just as well be applied to us.

Incidentally, by that "inspired" theology, we must only conclude that Jesus was born a sinner since He was born at least of a woman. Any arbitrary attempt to reconcile this difficulty can just as well be applied to us.

It is true that Jesus was born with a sinful nature like us through Mary but He Himself did not sin.

Through Mary we are born again through the Holy line of Jesus, the second Adam. His blood, His flesh. "Remember me" He said as you drink this wine and eat this bread. For it is my blood that is spilt out for you and my body that is given unto you.

Whosoever believes. Why is faith important? Because it shows will. With the first Adam came the sinful nature because of disobedience to God (even though we were tricked), through the second Adam whom we know as Jesus came the free gift of eternal life. If you do not believe it then you have made a choice. To be or not to be?, that is the question.

peace

c20

It is true that Jesus was born with a sinful nature like us through Mary but He Himself did not sin.

c20

You obviously missed my implication. Since Jesus was born with a sinful nature then He was obviously not holy, and certainly not perfect. Unless you want to say that God (at one time) had a sinful nature..

P.S. Don't go back and edit your post or try to change the meaning.

You obviously missed my implication. Since Jesus was born with a sinful nature then He was obviously not holy, and certainly not perfect. Unless you want to say that God (at one time) had a sinful nature..

P.S. Don't go back and edit your post or try to change the meaning.

I have no intention of changing any post. The law requires a life for a life. A lamb's blood could never really atone for a man's life. A man's life for a man's life. But that life had to be spotless for the law to be fulfilled. Jesus needed to be tempted just as we are or the law could not be fulfilled. To be tempted one must be able to understand the nature of temptation and overcome it. Jesus did this throughout His whole life so that He could present Himself to God as blemishless. We of the line of The First Adam have all sinned and none of us are blemishless before God. Jesus' blood is our atonement in God's eyes. He waits for us to thank Jesus because He is worthy of our Praise. In yoking ourselves to Jesus we become like Him. He send's us the Holy Spirit who transforms us into His Image by the power of that Blood. The blood of Jesus is the Fire in The Holy Spirit that refines us like gold. Jesus is Lord. I submit to Him. I am a servant of His.

peace

c20

I have no intention of changing any post. The law requires a life for a life. A lamb's blood could never really atone for a man's life. A man's life for a man's life. But that life had to be spotless for the law to be fulfilled. Jesus needed to be tempted just as we are or the law could not be fulfilled. To be tempted one must be able to understand the nature of temptation and overcome it. Jesus did this throughout His whole life so that He could present Himself to God as blemishless. We of the line of The First Adam have all sinned and none of us are blemishless before God. Jesus' blood is our atonement in God's eyes. He waits for us to thank Jesus because He is worthy of our Praise. In yoking ourselves to Jesus we become like Him. He send's us the Holy Spirit who transforms us into His Image by the power of that Blood. The blood of Jesus is the Fire in The Holy Spirit that refines us like gold. Jesus is Lord. I submit to Him. I am a servant of His.

peace

c20

C20, if you are interested in another view, you might want to see how Jews view atonement. The sins which required a blood sacrifice were unintentional sins. Intentional sins were not covered by this means. Also you could use flour or money for atonement. I think prayer might even be referred to as atoning, I'm not sure. If you are interested in this view, I can provide the passages if you like. But since you seem to be strong in your faith, I doubt you are interested, so I guess I won't waste my time. I'm just saying that your view is a Christian view of what the sacrificial system was about, and not the only view.

C20, if you are interested in another view, you might want to see how Jews view atonement. The sins which required a blood sacrifice were unintentional sins. Intentional sins were not covered by this means. Also you could use flour or money for atonement. I think prayer might even be referred to as atoning, I'm not sure. If you are interested in this view, I can provide the passages if you like. But since you seem to be strong in your faith, I doubt you are interested, so I guess I won't waste my time. I'm just saying that your view is a Christian view of what the sacrificial system was about, and not the only view.

Some little ones are caused to sin with eyes open. The blood must cover all who believe for the following to be true "With God all things are possible".
Note Judas is the son of perdition because he betrayed with eyes WIDE OPEN!
He (Judas) is lost. Was bound to be lost.

peace

c20

I have no intention of changing any post. The law requires a life for a life. A lamb's blood could never really atone for a man's life. A man's life for a man's life. But that life had to be spotless for the law to be fulfilled. Jesus needed to be tempted just as we are or the law could not be fulfilled. To be tempted one must be able to understand the nature of temptation and overcome it. Jesus did this throughout His whole life so that He could present Himself to God as blemishless. We of the line of The First Adam have all sinned and none of us are blemishless before God. Jesus' blood is our atonement in God's eyes. He waits for us to thank Jesus because He is worthy of our Praise. In yoking ourselves to Jesus we become like Him. He send's us the Holy Spirit who transforms us into His Image by the power of that Blood. The blood of Jesus is the Fire in The Holy Spirit that refines us like gold. Jesus is Lord. I submit to Him. I am a servant of His.

peace

c20

That still does not address my post about Jesus' sinful nature:

Since Jesus was born with a sinful nature then He was obviously not holy, and certainly not perfect. Unless you want to say that God (at one time) had a sinful nature..

it seems logical to me

sure the guy died, but as far as he believed, death serving God would give him eternal paradise

No it would not. Too much evil would have gone unchecked. I demand justice

There are many more of your God's children who have done more for more people than Jesus and who were killed in probably worse ways and who were not raised from the dead. No justice was served for those people. What justice was served for the people who killed Christ? Were they all struck down dead? Wouldn't that be a greater justice? Wouldn't it be a greater justice to raise all people who were killed and who were innocent?

Yes, but we also believe in a God of justice. I do not want those who have commited evils to go unpunished. I accept that I too have commited evils and therefore need salvation too. If God had not raised Jesus who was innocent by all accounts then their would be no hope for anybody.
And yet all other innocent people remain in their graves. How many innocent people who do so much for others and who do so at their own peril are killed violently remain in their graves?

Because Jesus' life and ministry would have been a total lie. He would have been whipped, scourged, beaten and nailed to a cross of wood for nothing. His suffering would have gone unnoticed. Another dead man. It would not be me rejecting God had Jesus not been resurrected, it would be God rejecting me.
Why would his life and ministry have been a lie? How many men and women died and their lives and ministries are still going strong? Are their lives a lie? They too were killed for nothing, and their suffering has for the most part gone unnoticed. But their memory and the memory of the work they have done has not gone unnoticed. Why wouldn't the same apply to Christ? After all, Christians look at the deeds that he has done. He did not go willingly. He, like all others when faced with death or being murdered, fought to save himself. Did Jesus not say 'father why have thou foresaken me'? So do many others who have done so much for others, and yet they are left to rot.

God is love. He was bound to save us. From the beginning He predicted man's victory when He said of the serpent, "You will bite man's heel but he will crush your head". Jesus crushed the curse of the serpent by offering His blood as a payment for us, man. It was acceptable to God as payment for all sin. We humbly claim the blood of Jesus and accept the free gift of eternal life.
If God was bound to save us, he would not have allowed millions to be slaughtered in genocides since the death of Christ. If God was love, those people would have been saved. Those people were for the most part innocent, many of them children and babies, yet their bodies were left to rot.

One has to ask oneself how God can be 'love' if he can allow his own son to be tortured and killed, but then make it all ok again to raise him from the dead. One has to ask if God was 'love' then how could he sit back and let millions of children be slaughtered at the hands of other men during times of war or just because they were born of the wrong nationality and do nothing to save them. Only for everyone else, no matter how innocent or how terribly they died at the hands of others, there is no God to raise them, as he did with his own son.

If God is love, the love would encompass all people and all people would be saved, and not just his own offspring. If God was love, there would be no preferential treatment.

It is my belief that the Father and Son are of one purpose. God is love after all. If Jesus had not risen then the law of God would be a falsehood and we would all have to accept that we perish as sinners / free men whatever.
We do perish, whether we are sinners, free men or good innocent men. The only exception was Jesus. As I asked you before c20, are we not all meant to be God's children? Why give preferential treatment to one child and not the others? Especially when one looks at a baby or child, who has done no wrong, and are of pure innocent souls, why are they allowed to rot in the ground? If God was love, those innocent children would not have had to suffer and they should have risen, instead of letting them suffer pain that no human being should ever have to suffer. After all, they too are innocent and they too have been killed at the hands of evil.

Bells, It is hard to accept that innocent people suffer. It shows that your heart is right because you lament the suffering of the innocent. I too lament the suffering of the innocent. Jesus was raised at the time so that people of the day who would then go on to spread the good news could be assured that God really did have power over life and death and whats more that the ministry of Jesus would really be the hope that people needed. Not hope in this life which we all know has some terrible aspects to it but rather hope in a new place which does not have all these terrible aspects in it.
People say why does God allow suffering. I say He does because He is patient with those people who do wicked. God does not want even one of them to be lost. Jesus died having said "Whosoever believes in me shall not perish but will receive eternal life."
He was voicing the Word of God. During Jesus' whole ministry if He performed any miracle or healing or anything at all, He would give the Glory to God His Father. Now this God of Jesus, His Father I have come to know through prayer and through the Holy Spirit and yet I feel I only ever see Him through dark glasses.
I was in prayer once, seeking the heart of God and thanking Him for the blessings in my own life, when I started to see the sheer magnificence of the Universe. Every celestial object up in the heavens seemed like one giant piece of creative artwork, something like an extremely talented child may paint. My breathe was taken back a little and I said, "God, I know you to be gentle and mild by your Holy Spirit, but your power seems infinite, your works so great. I want to know your power as well as your humble spirit."
Suddenly I became terribly afraid. i actually felt my size in the universe and I felt God's size in comparison to me. The Holy Spirit was telling me not to be afraid because God was only showing me what I had asked for and I had not asked for anything bad. I became less afraid at the words of the Holy Spirit and did not fight with the incredible power that was bearing down on me. I surrendered and said "God if you do not sustain me, I will die."
The Holy Spirit restored me back to a position of strength and comforted me. My inner being had been shown a great light but I knew that I had been spared because of God's great love for me. The Lord is just that. The Lord. Without His love we would perish immediately. If you have breath, it is because of Him, if you have food it is because of Him, if you have love it is because He has shown you love, we have being because He desired it. But God is just, he gives us a 'person', that we may be like Him and be pleased with the fruits of our own labours. He made us to be His sons. Now you might say "How can one resist the will of God? How can I be blamed? How can I be guilty?" but I tell you this, God is good and you cannot please Him without faith.
Not one of us may say that we are responsible for our own births. Not one. We could turn to our mother and father and say "Here, here are those that brought me into being" but your mother and father whilst proud in you, would have to say "With the Lord's help we have concieved a child."
Human beings are wonderful but they have so many questions. Jesus' disciples knew that Jesus did not need to be asked questions because He already knew the hearts and minds of those that spoke and knew that at the end of the day, the big question is "Why are we here?". Jesus said basically "Develop a loving relationship with God first and then you will know your own worth. Once you know your own worth, you will see how God loves each and every one of you. Then you will not dare to hurt one of these little ones because you will know how precious each and every one is to Our Father. Then out of great respect and reverence you will love your neighbour as yourself in the role of a servant even as I have served you."
People often point to the old testament to show how wicked God was for wiping people out with plagues, war and so on and this bothered me and so I prayed about it.
In my prayer saw myself playing the Sims. I had spent a lot of time building up my neigbourhood. I had worked hard to keep peoples happiness levels up despite all the frustrations they face in the game. I had a happy neighbourhood. Couples were having babies left right and centre and all my sims had good jobs and were increasing their wealth in line with their needs. There were many friendships and lots of love.
Then I saw one of my favorite sims seem to detach itself from the commands I was instructing it with. It took on life of it's own. In my vision the Sim looked at me and said "Mmm, it would be good to be like you and know everything. I do not want you to look after me anymore, I want to go my own way here and do what I want."
I immediately became afraid for the Sim in question and I became afraid for the other Sim's in question. I was the one who had spent so much time building this neighbourhood up. What would this sim do now that he had free will?"
The sim in my vision, decided that he would forget going to work and steal instead. He then thought it might be good to go and muscle in on the other sim's wives. He then thought he would kill people who stood in his way. He then convinced other sims to follow him in his path of destruction. In my vision the whole neighbourhood fell apart and everything I had built up was destroyed. God said to me "Why didn't you intervene?"
I said "What could I do?", He said "Remove the threat to your neighbourhood."
I said "But he was one of my favorite sims. I had spent soooo much time getting him to a state that was happy!"
God Said "Is he happy now?"
I saw the sim again and he had the largest house and had lots of wives and everything material in the game and I said "He seems happy enough" and God said "And everyone else?" and I said "No, no one else is happy. They are afraid of that sim." and God said "How long will you be patient with your favorite sim? Will he repent do you think?", Then God said "Tell him you will delete him if he does not repent." and so in my vision I saw myself saying to the little sim "If you do not stop this wickedness I will have to delete you. You are a bad apple and you have ruined my whole batch of good apples. Give up your wickedness and turn back to me and I will restore you."
The sim looked at me and then made a gesture showing me all that he had gotten for himself through going his own way.
I said to God "He is so proud of all that he has done himself that he will not give it up"
God said "Tell him again that you will delete him if he does not repent of this wickedness!" and so in my vision I turned once more to this wayward sim and said "Why do you persist in this foolishness? I have loved you and always taken care of you and even now I am pained to delete you, but your actions have affected everyone. You have turned others against me and now I have other sims whom I love with nothing at all and they are crying out to me for justice."
The wicked sim did not care and in my vision he said "I can do what I want. I have made this empire for myself and I did it without your help. When I was under your control I had much less than I have now."
Then I said to this sim "I chose your hair colour, I chose your clothes, I chose for you a beautiful wife and I made sure you were all fed. I gave you a house and I taught you to cook and to read and I gave you every good thing even children. I even chose you your name and this is how you repay me?"
The sim looked sad for a moment and said "What must I do to not be deleted by you?"
I said "I have never wanted to delete you but if you persist with this I will have no choice. Now that all the other sims are aware of my presence, they are all crying out for you to be deleted so that their lives may be restored to what they once were."
The sim began to cry and my heart went out to him. The sim said "I give up my own way. I give up my own life. I have sinned against you and all these other sims. I have ruined this neighbourhood and have even killed those that stood in my way. I have taken things that do not belong to me, even other sims wives who I subject to slavery here in a house that was not given me but rather I forced it's occupants out with fear of death.
My heart went out to the sim because of his contrition.
I said to God "My sim is sorry."
God smiled and said "Would you have deleted him if he was not for the sake of the others?"
I said "Yes" then I said "But this neighbourhood is ruined. Everything I loved has been destroyed or corrupted by this sims disobedience."
God said "Destroy the neighbourhood and build another one. Your sims may live in the new neighbourhood that you have built them."
I thanked God for His wisdom and humbly asked him to take control of my life so that I could be thankful for the good things I was given by him. God said "I have already done it" and I wept for joy.

peace

c20

and the new testament to show how wicked jesus/god was.
matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
17: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

as you can see Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament.
like father like son.