Let me preface this post by saying I don't hate christianity, just the modern perversion of it that many people worship.

I get so sick and tired of christians. They have strayed so far from the man who preached in Galilee 1,970 years ago, tat it is astonishing to me that they still use his name. Some examples..

Churches have started to build cell phone towers on chruch grounds to raise money. CELL PHONE TOWERS!!! Wasn't it Jesus himself who stormed a synagogue, throwing over tables, screaming and yelling, throwing people out, because they so much as handled money on church property?? (Yes, these people were money changers, but that fact was irrelevant to Jesus. His objection was in the money being there.)

People are against gays being ordinated into the church because of one quote from Deuteronomy claiming homosexuality to be evil, and the implied motive behind the destrcution of Sodom and Gommorah. What hypocrites! They only follow the Jewish law that suits them. It ALSO says in the book of Deuteronomy that Rape victims must marry their rapists!! I wonder how many "Christians" follow that law?

As a christian, you cannot pick and choose which laws to follow. Political correctness does not factor into the bible. All so-called christians out there, read the Jewish laws (contained in Exodus, Deut., Numbers, Leviticus). Then read the part of the sermon on the mount where Jesus says that not an iota will pass from these laws until his second coming.

Try to understand;
CHRISTIANS DO NOT LIVE UNDER THE LAW,
BUT
UNDER GRACE.
When Jesus died, he paid the price for our sins, we live by grace.
Peace


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I am where there is need, I am not where no need exists, I am a staff to lean on, a lamp to light the way, I am shelter from the storm and yet I am the storm that rages around you.
susan mcmanaway

Originally posted by courtjester:
Try to understand;
CHRISTIANS DO NOT LIVE UNDER THE LAW,
BUT
UNDER GRACE.
When Jesus died, he paid the price for our sins, we live by grace.
Peace


Bah!

Yep, he sure did!!! I agree with you one-hundred thousand and a million billion super duper trillion percent!!! He sure did pay for our sins!!! Christians do live under the law of God, and that's the bestest law in the whole wide world.

[This message has been edited by Infinity (edited July 11, 2000).]

Then Jesus was a fool. Look what it got him. Martyred.
He was a man with a good message. But where did it get him? Where did it get humankind?Overall, are we better off?
We live by grace? Whose? You mean to tell me that I'm alive today 'cause of Jesus?
~My apologies if I'm coming off as pissed or bitter, I'm not. :( ~
I am tired of everything being "because it's his will". That's the biggest load of elephant crap (pun intended) I have heard. If it's his will, does that mean that we are all just pre-programmed automatons just going through the motions of "his will"? :confused:
I had better finish now before I get worked up and piss a bunch of you fine people off. (but you know, maybe it's gods will that I'm supposed to piss you off! :D)
Once a Heathen...

Corp. Hudson--

One thing I will not say, here, is, I've been where you are before and let me tell you what I learned ....

They have strayed so far from the man who preached in Galilee 1,970 years ago, tat it is astonishing to me that they still use his name.

Quite correct, on the one hand. A difficulty I have reconciling this idea to notions of individuality is that, during most of those 1970 years, there was only one vessel for the communication of the mission of the Man--the Church. Even the Reformation was largely useless on at least a couple of fronts: to wit--it seems that early Reformation Christians had no real problems with the cruelties of Catholic institutional fury, but rather the logic and motivations justifying those cruelties. By the time the Reformation occurred, fifteen centuries had passed in which the Church--being the exclusive vessel of Christ's name and ideas--had played mere politics, establishing themselves through slander as separate from the Jews; fighting internally over doctrinal creed; developing devices such as the Trinity to simplify the greater intellectual riddles of their faith; persecuting, accusing, and destroying.

Thus, it seems to me that of our posters--I feel safe assuming them all to have been born in the 20th century--indeed, our very societal brethren, have entered the fray long after the intended goal was forgotten.

So while I still feel quite obliged to respect an individual Christian until such time as s/he might revoke that proper respect, I am constantly aware that that there are centuries-old ideas at play which I must deal with whenever I enter a moral arena regarding Christianity. One might advocate all the "right" (a subjective term) Christian ideas with their heart, but what happens if those right ideas are later formulations directly resulting from the two millennia of political considerations weighing on modern religion?

Churches have started to build cell phone towers on chruch grounds to raise money.

I know. Is nothing sacred? ;)

Actually, that's also a relevant point in the Is Christ a Capitalist thread. When I was a kid, if I complained about, say, a newspaper story being sensationally false, my father would dismiss it with a casual, "But a newspaper is a business, and someone's gotta pay for it."

Capitalism--money talks. So do people on celphones. Apparently, someone's gotta pay for church. (This week's sermon is brought to you by Bud Light. Budweiser, Bud Dry, Bud Light ... who will come out of the Circus Beer-Maximus alive ... will Bud Dry get fed to the Glutton? It's the last beer standing, this Sunday on Fox, right after church!)

What hypocrites! They only follow the Jewish law that suits them.

The only thing I have to add here is that my Catholic high school routinely violated portions of Leviticus in which God instructs Moses that the priests should not be disabled (despite the notion that God makes them so) because "they shall not profane what I, the Lord make holy". (Lv. 21.16-ff) One of our priests was deaf (a no-no), one was blind in one eye (a no-no), and one limped (also a no-no). The remainder, quite literally, and with no malice toward Catholics, were flat-out drunk. And that's not a no-no, as far as I can tell.
___________________

In the end, I'm all for interpretive regard for Scripture, but I'm aware that this isn't the best sentiment to bear if one wishes to become Christian. I think a good many of these difficult ideas might find resolution when their source material is interpreted by a subjective eye.

I mean, of all the Jewish Law which seems strange, I remind myself how much of it applies best when one is lost in the desert with the remnants of their nation. But that hardly helps the conditions frustrating the modern soul.

I'm running out of words and my phone's ringing off the hook. I'd tell you it's not as bad as you think and to try to get over it, but to be honest, I'm unsure about both of those aspects. On the one hand, it could possibly as bad as you think, and often it seems worse. To the other, trying to get over it may well be the reason "it"--the collective difficulties of faith--is still an active concern.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Wow, what a title for a post. Now, now, let's not hate....but really, you go Corporal. I agree with what you've said whole-heartedly. It shouldn't be such a shock to us "outsiders" though. I'm a born-again christian, and I don't belong to a religious organization. The Bible even says not to put your faith in such an organization or it's leaders, but in Christ. It seems simple enough of a concept to me....we're all sinners, even people in the church. Intent is key, even in the church. Blind faith is detrimental, even in the church. What are you going to do? Well, you can get to know Jesus, and then use some flippin' judgement. Not everything that comes from organized religion is bad. It's a tool, or a resource, like lots of other resources. It's important. Leave the snake charmers and the fag haters alone...they'll dig their own graves. Forgiveness is mandatory, even in the church. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Wow talk about hostility!!
Let's make some things clear; first of all I am agnostic.
I don't believe in predestination, nor do I believe that we are automans. What I meant and probably should have clarified a bit more, is that ~Christians~ don't get to heaven by works alone, nor by faith alone but by the grace of God.
As for the will of God, all life is the will of God. (as in CREATOR) But the Earthquake that hit Japan was not the "Will of God", nor was the trash slide that killed a bunch recently the "W. O. G." , but rather an act of nature.
peace


------------------
I am where there is need, I am not where no need exists, I am a staff to lean on, a lamp to light the way, I am shelter from the storm and yet I am the storm that rages around you.
susan mcmanaway

Didn't "God" create nature though? Isn't it in "gods" power to stop and control nature? I believe it is in the job description.

yes it certainly is in his power to stop them. (natural laws) But why would he? Out of out greatest struggles and tribulations comes out greatest growths. That which does not kill you, only makes you stronger.
read this somewhere, might not have it right but the basics are here;
Are you healthy or sick?
If you are healthy then no worries,
If you are sick then you have two paths;
Either you get healthy - no worries, or you die.
If you die you have two paths,
If you go to heaven - no worries,
If you go to hell-
you'll be to busy greeting your old friend to have any worries anyway. ;)
Really - I can think of lots of times that at the moment I truly wished for God to intervene and change the outcomes, but in rerospect, I find that I gained in strenght, wisdom or self knowledge. Do I understand why those events happened? NO!! But I have come to realize that understanding why things happen has nothing to do with reality or God. Free choice is the best bet. If we (humans) had never left the Garden, then we would still be walking with God, but we would also never dreamed the dreams we have now. The drive for the future started with disobediance. All children are that way. My own parents told me; NO don't do that, it is bad for you, you will regret it, countless times, and to tell the truth there have only been a few times that they were right. We each much choose the path we walk, then we have to grow up, and take responsibility. I know I'm rambling but...
There may come a day, (Way distant I hope ;)) that I stand before God, and have to say "I was wrong." And ACCEPT his judgement. But I honestly believe that the soul is judged, not by what faith you practice/believe but by the way you live. Anyway, I got carried away to somewhere else...
peace


------------------
I am where there is need, I am not where no need exists, I am a staff to lean on, a lamp to light the way, I am shelter from the storm and yet I am the storm that rages around you.
susan mcmanaway

I think also, when something bad or negative happens to you, there might not be a reason "why" it happened that you will relate to.

How many times in your life have you seen someone else screw up and said to yourself "Woah, gotta remember not to ever do that!" Sometimes, I think you are someone else's cautionary example. You have benefited from other's mistakes, now it is someone else's turn to benefit from yours. This of course follows my karmic beliefs in a natural balance that the universe tends towards.

So there IS a reason "why", but it is removed from you, hence it seems meaningless from your perspective.

courtjester,

I agree that free will is the best way to go, we learn so much from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. Allthough it makes a God a side note and not needed.

If you take your point about how kids rebel against thier parents one step further in the devlopment line you get independence. At some point you become an adult. Not by age, but by your actions, and you become equal to your parents if not better. Not that they are no good. Just that mabye through thier guidence you learn to not make a mistake they made and are better for it. Now the child is own thier own and doesn't "need" thier parents any more.

On a side not this just came to me and I want to through out there to see what everyone thinks.

Mabye this is a cause for religon. As we grow we reilize that we are equal to our parents we look for the same type of all powerfull guidence we once had when we were children. Think about how many years we lived beliving that our parents can do anything and and never suffer any ill. We got comfortable with it and when it is taken away it would only be logical that we would look for something similar. Know at what point do we take the step into unfilmilar ground and reilize that our lives are our choice and is more than a simple yes no equation. There are so many gray areas. Do we really get judge by a God or do we end up judging our seleves? After all we trully know what is right and what is wrong deep down in our minds. Well at least the vast majority does. There are some who suffer from the inability to determine this.

Given the choice I would chose neither going to heaven or to hell. I like it to much right ware I am at. Manny times I find myself asking "why is everyone looking to get into heaven?" I find this to be my heaven. All of it! The good parts and the bad. As a whole it is a great place. To many people look at just the bad and never at the whole picture. The learning, the exploring, the ability to help some else, it goes on and on. If I were to go to heaven it would be a place of perfection. A place of no need, no learning, exploring, nothing but bordom.


Mooncat,

But what about the bad things that happen with out cause. For example a 3 year child is raped and murdered. Now that a pretty heavy price to pay just so that others can learn not to do what this guy did. I find that the karmic laws really make no sense.

If in this life I am to atone for or correct what I did in my last life why am I not allowed to rember it? I can I correct that which I do not know?

666,

I understand your point, and have a hard time seeing it myself all the time. In that example you left, perhaps that child was paying some pretty heavy retribution for wrongs committed in other lifetimes. Maybe that 3 year old was Jeffrey Daumer (sp?) reincarnated specifically to feel the pain he had caused in others, and having done so can now move on to a better lifeline having hopefully learned something... Not that I condone what happened, of course, not by a long shot!

There are still rotten people, too. Perhaps that 3 year old didn't deserve it at all - that would have caused an imbalance that would then need to be repaired. In that child's next life, perhaps they will be a talented artist that manages NOT to kill themselves from heroin because they know "somehow" that pain that seems to make an artist great without having to self-inflict it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe there tends to be a balance, and when it's out of balance it tends to try to achieve balance. At any given moment one side of the scale can be higher than the other, but in the big picture it is mostly even.

As far as not remembering goes...well, do you remember being born? I sure don't. But I do remember srange bits and pieces from my very, very early childhood. I think we do remember previous lives, but write them off in our daily life as daydreams, overactive imaginations, too much pizza before bedtime, just a dream...those nebulous bits and flashes that you are pretty sure you haven't experienced could be things coming back to you from a previous lifetime.

I hope that in the 'between times', when you aren't in an incarnation, you have the benefit of all memories, but I'm not sure of that. But it would fit well into the rest of my beliefs if we did.

666,

Free will and learning from mistakes does NOT make God obsolete. God has given us free will to make mistakes, but the very definition of a mistake is also given to us by God. The question is all about how you go about determining what was a mistake and what wasn't and why. What truth do you bump your intentions and actions up against to determine whether you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing? If there was no God, then there would be no right and no wrong. It would all be extremely relative, and meaningless anyway. There is an inner struggle within all of us between good and evil. Temptations to do wrong that are driven by our natural instincts. Usually to do the right thing, we have to suppress our natural instincts and desires and emotions. Now, you explain that paradox without God and I'll shut up.

And you know guys, that 3 year old could have absolutely nothing to do with his own death in any lifetime. Bad things happen to good people, and yea to innocent children. It's definately a consequence of sin, but not his sin alone, or even his sin at all. You can't sin when you're 3. The cumulative and rippled and compounded effect of sin in this world is everywhere; no one can escape it. But when we see the death of an innocent, we shouldn't just throw up our hands and curse God for injustice. And ask why God, oh why? And then not really try to answer the question, just to say that the world's not fair and there must be no God. How convenient and easy, and what a cop out. So do you think that child rapists and murderers are just born that way? They're just born evil or crazed or with some biological problem of some sort? I don't think so. I know there is disease in this world, but I also know that it's source at some point is sin, and I know that it can be overcome and healed through Christ. I also know that most criminals and predators like that don't have some f'ing disease, they were most likely abused and raped as kids themselves, or have some type of problem realizing who they are and why. They are the barbaric animals that would exist without the influence of the Holy Spirit of God on this earth. They are the animals that we all would be without God. You can't just isolate one action and one consequence and solve this puzzle. You're trying to make it too easy. That child got raped and murdered because there is sin in this world and lots of it, and he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. But you say that the price is too high for the lesson that is learned. I don't agree with you. The lesson IS that the price is high, get it? And that is a profound lesson that we all just don't want to seem to learn. It's too much of a pain in the ass, and it's too humiliating to admit how bad we all have screwed up. How far off the mark we really are. You think that we all didn't learn a huge lesson when Columbine happened? Did we? I did. Do you remember who died and how, so that I could learn the biggest lesson of my life? So that I could be saved? See, that's the thing...not everyone is interested in learning lessons. Not everyone even wants to admit that there are lessons to learn. There are women sitting in waiting rooms in abortion clinics all over the world right now looking bored and slightly annoyed, as if they're waiting to have some dental work done. Are they learning a lesson? Ok, then Mr. Atheist, what lesson are they learning and why?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 13, 2000).]

A couple of musings .... This post is not a specific response but built from specific considerations which piqued my interest for the time being.

So there IS a reason "why", but it is removed from you, hence it seems meaningless from your perspective. (MoonCat; 7/12)

Speculating just a little on the sense of removal of the "reason why", I often find myself wondering if maybe the sense of removal doesn't derive from our inherent sense that all of our living works toward some purpose grander than humanity and the Earth. I think it unsatisfactory to call that grander purpose "God's Will", for the only conclusions which seem satisfactory regarding what, exactly, God's Will is appear to be either "a mystery grander than our puny intelligence" or "a Question We Don't Ask".

Being that every atom in the universe is interrelated through Gravity, we must realize that the processes which physically affect our selves and our environments sometimes have their origins in the farthest reaches of the universe; in this sense, I do not propose some exacting pseudo-measurement similar to astrology. But as a Witch knows there is karma in a raindrop, so might a Witch see karma in a 1000 light-year long lightning flash with a duriation of over a million years that takes place some 200,000 light-years away. Part of what I'm getting at is the inherent subtlety of distant universal events. We recently saw the gamma spectrum from what is being termed the biggest bang since the Big Bang. Pretty cute event, but we are probably unable to measure the effect such a distant event might have on our own earthly ecosystem; largely, we choose not to attempt such measurements because we wouldn't know what to look for. But these subtle effects of the universe are there.

And if we start at that degree of subtlety, and work our way back into what we can see and measure physically, socially, spiritually, or otherwise, we might eventually conclude that the "reasons why" an event happened are either irrelevant or greater than our perspectives. (As a base example, what if everything in God's universe was intended to keep a balance of matter and energy; theoretically, there's not much we could do in the universal sense that would upset that balance, hence our rules from God apply to perpetuating our part in the equation, which is what life, the universe, and everything does, anyway.)

Okay, my other musing ....

You think that we all didn't learn a huge lesson when Columbine happened? Did we? I did. Do you remember who died and how, so that I could learn the biggest lesson of my life? So that I could be saved? See, that's the thing...not everyone is interested in learning lessons. Not everyone even wants to admit that there are lessons to learn. (Lori; 7/13)

Unfortunately, I see myself living in a culture where the majority of people didn't learn a lesson from Columbine. Rather, they made a point of learning the wrong lessons. Bang-bang-bang, and there's lots of death. In the aftermath, I heard several contributing factors: guns (offered, of course, by the gun control lobby), fashion (offered by school counselors and concerned parents who had no desire to look deeper than the outermost physical layers of human presentation), video games (offered by knee-jerk columnists and a couple of religious organizations supporting censorship) ... ad nauseum. On the other hand, I heard several contributing factors discounted: apathetic parents ("Really, we didn't know he had an arsenal in his bedroom; we're too good of parents to pay attention to that"), guns (more guns would have stopped the carnage, apparently), social pressure (those darn whiny kids ... why are they complaining about stupid things like that?), and the words of the shooters themselves (umm ... I wish those stupid whiny kids would have told us why this happened).

It's going to happen again. The whole thing: Children will die and everyone will stand around scratching their heads and wailing, "Why?" while the whole time they simply need to accept that the evidence in front of them is really all there is.

So I'm left asserting that the culture at large has learned nothing. Perhaps we all have learned something, as individuals, but have yet to learn the courage to tell the individual next to us that a certain thing happening in front of the both of them is wrong and needs to be stopped.

But the individuals of our society will create these conditions again, and bad events will happen. And we'll ask, "Why?", and scratch our heads. And then we'll shrug, blame something ... blame anything we can ... and go about our lives until it happens again.

Myself ... I'm not sure what I learned from Columbine. On the sarcastic surface, it's that Jewish parents can no longer sleep safely in the knowledge that they've raised a kid who's smart enough to not advocate Nazi philosophy. To drop the sarcasm and look at the primary factors, in my mind, there's not much to learn at Columbine that we haven't seen over and over and over again.

I'm a firm believer in various karmic ideas, though I'm rarely a fan of "afterlife credits" or other reward systems that encourage proper behavior with a carrot on a string. My own karma sees a whole universe, and a play of light and dark or good and evil--any dualistic metaphor, really--acting out a subtle drama which transcends our broadest conceptions.

But since I'm rambling and merely wandering around a rhetorical desert right now, I'll hush. Thanx for putting up with it--

--Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Ahh, what's the big deal. I think alot of people get ticked off at org relig's cuz they believed the hype at one point and then when they realize they got duped by a business they bash to try and get revenge. But that's god's will or sciences randomness...which do you prefer?
Premature ejacualtion cure at www.OrgasmControl.com (http://www.OrgasmControl.com)

I was raised a Catholic. We went to church every morning before school. I loved that church. I wanted to be a priest so I could stay in such a beautiful place. My mother was a devout catholic, the only time I ever saw my father in a church was at his mother's funeral. As I grew older, into my teen years, I started thinking about my Dad not going to church. I remembered the Nun's and priest's condeming my father openly to the whole class. It made me mad, my father was a good hard working man. He never spoke ill of anyone, except maybe Hitler, Stalin and the like. The nun's condemed me for going to the church of my grandmother's funeral. She talked as if it was the house of the devil. I decided the nun and priest was wrong. All churches are good, if you really believe then you will go to heaven.
When I was in the army and saw people die, I asked a Chaplin why are the good dying along with the bad? "The ways of the Lord are strange". I swore that if another person told me the ways of the Lord are strange, I would kill them. Most of what I was taught by the nun's have proven false to me.
I have taken on the beliefs of an agnostic. I will believe there is a heaven or hell when I see it. I will believe there is a God when I see Him. The Creator ??? Has the Creator been creating these millions, no billions of planets, galaxies and whatever else is out there for these billions of years? No, my imagination cannot handle it.
Right, wrong or indifferent, we all strive to survive. Looking around me, I have survived!

SMILE IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY

I began reading this section, and fully agree with Corporal. But as I continued to read the replies, it seems the message first spoken has gotten diluted in philosophies and opinions...but not truth.

Truth is...

A lot a people are walking around calling themselves Christian and they don't know God.

Just like a lot of people walk around this country calling themselves Americans but don't know Bill Clinton or our founding fathers personally.

Get the point?

It all depends on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Your reservations to eternity are based on WHO you know...not WHAT you did. And if you don't know Jesus, you don't get in.

Just like sitting in McDonald's and calling yourself a BigMac doesn't make you a hamburger.

Or sitting in a donut shop doesn't make you a cop.

God bless each one of you and give you wisdom with regard to this matter...because we are running out of time. I personally would be honored to meet some of you in heaven...so let's get our reservations made, okay?

Will that be smoking or non-smoking? :)

I began reading this section, and fully agree with Corporal. But as I continued to read the replies, it seems the message first spoken has gotten diluted in philosophies and opinions...but not truth.

Truth is...

A lot a people are walking around calling themselves Christian and they don't know God.

Just like a lot of people walk around this country calling themselves Americans but don't know Bill Clinton or our founding fathers personally.

Get the point?

It all depends on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Your reservations to eternity are based on WHO you know...not WHAT you did. And if you don't know Jesus, you don't get in.

Just like sitting in McDonald's and calling yourself a BigMac doesn't make you a hamburger.

Or sitting in a donut shop doesn't make you a cop.

God bless each one of you and give you wisdom with regard to this matter...because we are running out of time. I personally would be honored to meet some of you in heaven...so let's get our reservations made, okay?

Will that be smoking or non-smoking? :)

Hi. I'm a baby. I was born 3 months ago. My Daddy's parents are Christians. I call them Nana and Grand-daddy. They really love me lots. Mommy doesn't like it when Grand-daddy holds me too much. She says I always end up smelling like pipe tobacco and a baby shouldn't smell like pipe tobacco. I don't see Nana and Grand-daddy too much because they are very busy spending time with their parents who are dying. Since my Mommy went back to work a few weeks ago I spend most of my time with my Grandma and Grandpa. Mommy and Daddy thank someone named God for Grandma and Grandpa. They say that they don't know how other people do it - leave their children with strangers when they go to work. Mommy and Daddy say I am very fortunate that people who love me are taking care of me during the day. Is that true?

Grandpa is funny and Grandma is fun. That's good because she takes care of me most of the time and I like to have fun. Grandpa and Grandma love me a whole bunch too. Grandma sings pretty songs to me, reads me books, takes me for walks, exercises on the floor with me and hugs and kisses me lots. Grandpa doesn't like fish or country music. He sings songs to me about "We don't like no stinkin' fish" and "We don't like no stinkin' country music" but Grandma tells him to not to do that. She thinks I should experience life for myself and make up my own mind about such things when I'm able.

What do you think? Should I hate my Nana and Grand-daddy 'cause they're Christian? Are they really bad people? Should I not like fish and country music like Grandpa says or, should I experience life and make up my own mind about things like Grandma says?

I'd ask my parents but, they're at work most of the time while I'm awake. My Mommy and Daddy cry sometimes because they misses me so much while they're at work.

They love me the mostest.



[This message has been edited by Baby (edited July 17, 2000).]

Baby--

Your point is well-taken within its context. What, indeed, should you believe?

I offer the following; if it seems melodramatic, try existing alongside it. What follows is a true story inasmuch as anything about it is true--it's the tale that taught me the purpose of human compassion, and it's a tale that will never finish its telling.


I, too, was a baby, once. My folks called themselves Christians.

When I was 2, I woke up in a nightmare. I coughed and choked until I threw up.

It happened again.

And again.

When I was 4 I told my family about the nightmares. I was told it wasn't right to say those things.

When I was 6, I stayed with my Aunt and Uncle, who were also Christian. I had the same nightmare.

I told people about the nightmare. I was told it was a sin to lie like that.

When I was 10, the nightmare ended. I awoke on the bathroom floor in my own vomit. My body hurt, and I was bleeding.

I cried. I begged for help against the nightmares.

I was told not to tell such lies. It wasn't "Christian" to talk about people that way.

When I was 14, my folks sent me to a Christian school. They told me the reason I'd had nightmares since I was 2 was because I listened to evil music.

When I was 14, I tried to kill myself with speed. When they asked why, I told them about the nightmares, about the horrible dream where my Daddy comes into the room at night ....

They told me it was the Devil. They told me I was lying for the Devil.

When I was 15, I destroyed all of my evil music. But I was still afraid.

When I was 16, I took my Daddy to court, but the doctor, who went to our church, said that I was hurting myself inside with sticks. The judge told me I didn't scream loud enough.

I don't hate Christians. I have learned too much to hold their religion responsible. That it made them cowards is their own business. That they would rather believe a little girl doesn't need help happened to be my problem.

But now the Christians tell me I can never be healed unless I am like them. I can never be healed unless I banish compassion in the same way they have.

What am I supposed to do? Stand on my own two feet? Or lie on my back for Jesus?


Melodramatic? Harsh? I think so. But it paints as stark a contrast of issues as anything else.

It is merely counterpoint.

What is any human being supposed to believe? Only what they're told?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa,

Hi, I must say that your story sounds sad.

I think totally that the way your parents acted was totally out of place of Christian character.

I am now 17, but when I was little probably about 6 or 7 I kept on having this reocurring dream that was a nightmare also.

It was a dream about I was in my living room and the lights would turn off by themselves. I would then try frantically to turn them on, and all these ghosts would come floating towards me. I can still remember the exact vividnous of the dream as I am writing this.

Like you I told my mum(however, I'm not really close to my dad so he wouldn't know a thing, only two months ago he asked me how old I am, and when my birthday is, that was just for an ambulance subscription).

My mother told me that I should pray to God and ask Him (I say Him because that is the way He is reffered to in the bible, remember, God is neither male nor female, there is just no word in the English language to describe neither male nor female, however, I am unsure of ancient Hebrew) to stop the dreams.

As the way it happened I had that dream once more the night I prayed and have never had it since.

Also, my older brother asked one of my cousins how he bacame Christian. Like you he used to have nightmares. These nightmares were about demons in his room. He was three years old. Again, he told his parents about it and they said that Jesus is waiting outside the door. All you have to do is let him in. So he did that, and the dreams have stopped.

I hope I don't offend you by saying that your parents acted totally out of fashion. Noone and I mean absolutely noone should be punished for having the devil attack them. Your parents should have shown faith but instead decided to punish you. To be honest, they could have been more scared than you!

I still sometimes have dreams that there is an evil spirit in our house, even a house that I live in in my dream but I've never seen it before. However, when that dream happens I usually beg mum in my dream to get a minister over to rebuke the demon, it is very scary, especially when my mum refuses in the dream(now all of you probably think I'm a nut :) )

But I know in my heart Christianity is for real. For those that havn't already I plead with you to read the four Gospels of the bible ie. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This will give you more insight into Jesus Christ my Lord and personal Saviour.


Also there was a post earlier on about how homosexual people are being kicked out of churches. Whoever has seen or experienced this I say to you to tell them

John Ch 8 vs 7

This was taken when the Pharisees brought an adulteress ( I think she was a prostitute) to Jesus to have her condemned.

So here's the verse.

John Ch 8 vs 7

"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.'"

This is basically saying that if anyone has sinned than by what right do they have to condemn another person. They have sinned and have therefore fallen short of the glory of God. By what right do those self rightous people have to condemn another sinner? Thats why Jesus had to be without sin.

My brother told me that a women who worked as a prostitute used to go to our church. She was never condemned, you see the difference between So called Christian churches and real Christian churches is that they won't condemn a sinner. We are all sinners whether they like it or not. the difference is that the 'real' Christian churches try to save people form that.

John ch 3 vs 16,17

16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Also, I raise the question.

We know who Jesus' mother is. Its Mary.
Non believers, I want to ask you this.
Jesus was born a virgin birth. We know his mother was Mary but who is his father?

HE MUST BE THE SON OF GOD!

And please remember God loves all of you! That's right, he's just waiting for you to love him. He wants to be your friend. Christianity isn't just about religion. For those who truly believe it's about a relationship!

Deadwood,

I hope I don't offend you by saying that your parents acted totally out of fashion. Noone and I mean absolutely noone should be punished for having the devil attack them. Your parents should have shown faith but instead decided to punish you. To be honest, they could have been more scared than you!

Not to hurt or offend you at all, but you may want to reread Tiassa's story a bit more carefully to see what he was really saying. Don't worry, I don't think it was Tiassa's personal story (although it may have been about a friend of his). It is a very sad one indeed, and unfortunately it does happen in today's society. The brand of Christianity that is usually practiced today doesn't keep such things from happening, either.

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Matthew 18:
1 In that hour came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And he called to him a little child, and set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me:
6 But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh!


Occasions of stumbling will come to us all, occasions to blame God for events that happen. Occasions where the actions or inaction of a person cause a suffering beyond understanding.

For those who cause the act and those who ignore the act it would be better if they had not been born.

God is a God who heals and restores, and as deep as the scares may be only He can heal them.

God is a God who judges justly and in truth and righteousness. For the little one who falls into the hands of a predator and becomes disillusioned and confused about who God is. For these ones God has a measure of grace and understanding that we know little of, let alone take the time to try to understand.

For the one's who do such things, BE WARNED For by the suffering you inflict you will be judged.

The only person who I know that can heal these scares is Jesus, and I know this first hand. For I like many and like the one described by Tiassa was one of these little ones. Perhaps my torment was not as cruel as that suffered by Tiassa's little one, but torment and confusion it was. And as I live, and as my Lord has commanded me to not swear by anything, all I can say is that there is truth in the words that He has spoken.

Mark 5:
41 And taking her by the hand, he said to her, Talitha cumi, which is, My child, I say to you, arise, Get up.
42 And the young girl got up straight away, and was walking about; she being twelve years old. And they were overcome with wonder.


There is healing through faith in Him, Jesus can make us whole again.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Tony--

Perhaps the only merit of the tale is its current chapter, that I wander through these valleys alone, and that she now walks somewhere on the plateau. Suffice it to say that she gets along better in the world than I.

BE WARNED For by the suffering you inflict you will be judged.

Perhaps in the context of one portion of Hudson's topic post, I'm given to wonder on a few things.

We're all individuals--heaven knows the point has come up enough here. As such, we've all got slightly different ideas about what's real and not. Even when it comes to God. To wit (I hope):

When I was 18, my girlfriend wanted me to tag along to a Carman concert. I will forego my review of the evening's performance. One of the things more relevant to my point that I saw that night, and something that occurs to me to watch from time to time; mind you, it does require at least a small assembly of faithful, but I digress with that. As I watched people wandering around the Tacoma Dome waving and greeting each other with "Praise Jesus" and other such declarations, I noticed that the strangest combinations of people came together under this banner.

While this diversity is certainly part of the point, it presents an interesting quandary: are these people praising the same Jesus? For instance, is the choir teacher with her niece praising the same Jesus as Joe the Neo-Nazi, or as the gang-banger with the massive crucifix tattoo on his back?

Do these people believe in the same Jesus?

Do the faithful receive a commission from God? Does that commission manifest itself differently? As a rhetorical point only, to demonstrate the complexity of what comes about ... I'm given that it's dangerous to actually speculate on the answer: How, then, does God regard individual differences in the execution of his Will?

What I'm after there is that some people may spend their entire lives devoted to Jesus while stomping a mudhole of His name. I had to break my last girlfriend of a strange anti-Semitism; her father, an ardent SDA, held a certain set of mild prejudices about Jewish people, and while he would never admit to a bigotry nor allow it to interfere directly with his conduct among Jewish company, the fact is that he still managed to raise a daughter who believed a number of social bigotries about Judaism. This man honestly thought he was giving his daughter life advice. There is an especially unfortunate period of our oft-unfortunate American history in which it was regarded as the proper "Christian" thing to keep African slaves illiterate; it wouldn't be nice to let them get their blood all riled up on controversial, incendiary notions like equality or freedom. What of ... well, we've dealt with medieval history before, so I imagine you get the point there.

The important part of it is the diversity of ideas claiming allegiance to the Christian idea. Now, certes, be warned, as such. But we've seen that people have gotten around the idea of inflicting suffering.

Bottom line ... you've got me thinking about that very diversity, possibly for days. Its application as I've noted in the quote above is the first time I've ever looked at it from that end.

But I've been trying to get more sleep, lately, so I'm going to stop now. I'll be counting Blueberries on a golden vine, so excuse me if I'm melting into the keyboard ....

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Searcher,

I should point you, also, to the first lines of my post to Tony.

At first I was speechless. I rarely make any sense at all when I get like that. Maybe I should be a poet. Or a performance artist. (Ever read the Doonesbury when JJ plans a performance piece that takes three years to execute and involves dying in a prison hunger-strike? Strange that should occur to me now. :D )

thank ye kindly ...
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

We're all individuals--heaven knows the point has come up enough here. As such, we've all got slightly different ideas about what's real and not. Even when it comes to God. To wit (I hope):

While this diversity is certainly part of the point, it presents an interesting quandary: are these people praising the same Jesus? For instance, is the choir teacher with her niece praising the same Jesus as Joe the Neo-Nazi, or as the gang-banger with the massive crucifix tattoo on his back?

Do these people believe in the same Jesus?

Tiassa,

One thing for certes, your musings I find very amusing.

Diversity and individuality are characteristics that reflect aspects of God's character in us, heaven forbid that we all become somma commatose popout drones.

Are we then as individuals all worshiping an individualistic view of Jesus? I would have to say yes to a degree. For as individuals we obviously have individual needs, desires, understanding etc, and so we see God in an individual light. But be careful here, for as individually as we see God, as different as our perspective's may be on occasion it is not a different God, it is our perspective of Him that changes and not He or His immutable character. God remains steadfast, He is unchanging, my Jesus view as opposed to your Jesus view are as completely different as say a Boris Jesus view. Why? Because we choose to see in differing ways. I have chosen to let my heart be Gods, this does not mean that I see Him for all He is. As we have discussed before if that was to happen I would surly perish. But I see God through how He has worked in my heart and changed my life view from one of selfishness and self centeredness to one of servantuide to Him in love. I see my Lord through the words of the Bible, through the records of how He dealt with people and why He dealt with people in certain ways, through the character and nature He has displayed in name and act, through the masterful plan of eternal salvation He haw wrought, through all these things and through the simplest of things such as the dew of the morn. My God is greater than my minds view can contain, for His diversity and majesty are greater than I can behold at any given moment in my present form.

So to answer, yes it is the same Jesus, seen in the wonder of His ability to reach such a diverse spectrum of individuals and inspire them to aspire to His greatest teaching. To love the Lord your God with all your heart.

The outside appearance can confuse and mislead, that's why Jesus deals with the inner man, the heart. He sees beyond the images we place before others, Jesus sees to who we truly are and its that person in us all that He longs to enter into and fellowship with.

So in honest fact, we will all see Him differently for we are all different with differing strengths and differing weaknesses. But we all see Him the same in the light of who He show Himself to be through growing in our relationship with Him.

Its something I wish that I could explain better to you Tiassa, for I know in my heart that you seek to know. This is obvious for name me another who thinks as deeply on these things?

Allcare

Tony H2o

Its something I wish that I could explain better to you Tiassa, for I know in my heart that you seek to know.


Prove it!

LOL at aaaaaaaaaaa. I just got back from vacation, and aaaaaaa might be the most annoying person in the world. But that struck me as funny.

Tony H2O

I totally agree with you!!!! no man can understand the absolute of God's love. even through His judgement there is only love. we sometimes can so quickly relate judgement with condeming, that yes even we his children can be guilty. but, just like a loving father he will bring you to a since of conviction with all purposes of drawing a honest repentance out of us. we however, have the dreaded responsibility of forgiving ourselves and moving on under the blood of Jesus Christ with all intentions to not sin again.(of course we will but thats why we have the blood and a loving father). Yet we always find a way to divert the blame and sometimes even be so bold as to blame God.
I can only be thankful that Jesus Knew what He was saying when He said "Forgive then for they Know not what they do."

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Mooncat,

Sorry it took so long to respond. I lost track of the thread.

I just find the whole multiple lives thing pointless. Do to the fact that if you can only rember small little snips of your past life that it can be past off as a day dream you have no way of knowing what you are paying for. If you are rasing a child and he does somthing wrong but let it go for a year then spank him for it and not tell him why you spanked him he learns nothing. In fact he may gain a complex from it.

You even have to look at the fact that we have learned that memory is physical. It is an accual physical imprint upon the brain. This is why if you take a major hit to the head you loose your memory. When we die we do not take our physical brain with us, and if memoryh is physical how can our non-physical mind take the memory with it? In the end there realy is no balance.

The leasons we learned in the past life are forgoten in the next life and it is hit or miss if we learn them again. If we did not forget the leasons of our past lives everyone would be extreamly wise and know all the answers. It's like painting a work of art, but every time you are done with it it is wiped clean and you have to start over, but you can;t rember what it was you painted. So every time you started over it was different. Beutifull in it's own way but never the same. the point of learn is not wipe the slate clean, but to add to what you have all ready learned. This requires knowing what you learned before. This can never really achive a balance, becuase every time you learn you are put back at the start whith no balance.

666,

I see your point, yet somehow I still have this feeling there's more to it that just this. :)

I like your painting analogy though. If I might point something out...even if you don't remember what exactly it is you painted the other times, each painting is bound to be better than the last - memory might fail you but the experience is still lingering there somewhere.

Blessings,
~MC

666,

The leasons we learned in the past life are forgoten in the next life and it is hit or miss if we learn them again. If we did not forget the leasons of our past lives everyone would be extreamly wise and know all the answers. It's like painting a work of art, but every time you are done with it it is wiped clean and you have to start over, but you can;t rember what it was you painted. So every time you started over it was different. Beutifull in it's own way but never the same. the point of learn is not wipe the slate clean, but to add to what you have all ready learned. This requires knowing what you learned before. This can never really achive a balance, becuase every time you learn you are put back at the start whith no balance.

Perhaps it is more like the difference between dreaming and wakefulness? You can't always consciously remember your dreams once you awaken, but that doesn't mean you don't dream. Nor does it mean that your dreams aren't beneficial to you in some way. Also, while you are asleep and dreaming, you don't normally "remember" a dream you had on some previous night, although parts of a previous dream might be incorporated into your current dream.

I think that just as dreams are beneficial - even necessary - so are multiple lives. I'm guessing that our lifetimes on this earth can be equated to our dream times, and our spiritual existence between physical lifetimes can be equated to our waking times.

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Searcher,

"I'm guessing that our lifetimes on this earth can be equated to our dream times, and our spiritual existence between physical lifetimes can be equated to our waking times. "

Funny, I said something very much like that to my Dad on the phone the other day!

What's that saying...something about great minds... ;)

MoonCat,

Uh, they flock together? ;)

I was trying to explain that concept to my friend the other day, too. She's kind of on the fence on this one. What does your dad think about it?

Considering the length of our lives compared to the span of eternity, and the multitude of experiences available, it doesn't make sense that we only get one shot at it, and one narrow set of life circumstances in which to prove ourselves. It doesn't make sense that if you're "fortunate" enough to die as a small child, you get to go to heaven and be with Jesus for all of eternity. But if you're not so fortunate, you're born into deep poverty and ignorance, with a stepfather who molests you and a mother who sells you to her drunken boyfriends, and you wind up an uneducated drug addict out on the streets at the age of 15 - so off to hell you go. Then there's the Christians who are sitting all smug in their pews at Church, "knowing" that they will go to heaven just because they believe in Jesus.

Okay, maybe I'm going off the deep end here a bit, but this ficticious example illustrates one of the problems I have with the Christian theory on getting into heaven. It's like one person being given a master's degree without ever having stepped foot in a classroom simply because he was born retarded, while another person is denied entrance to college because he lives on the "wrong" side of the tracks, went to the "wrong" schools and doesn't know the "right" people, while still another person goes to college and practically has the degree handed to him on a silver platter because he lives on the "right" side of the tracks, went to the "right" schools and knows all the "right" people. There's something wrong with this picture, if you ask me.

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Here's my understanding on the heaven thing and who gets there.

As Christians we are often rather narrow minded on the idea of who gets to heaven. C.S Lewis in his book Mere Christianity (I tend to follow his thought a lot) proposed the idea that if someone embodies the nature of Christ without ever knowing of his existence then how can we exclude the idea that these people would enter the kingdom of heaven. Not to mention it is not our place to decide who gets into heaven and who doesn't. Gods greatness is bigger than us, this is why all I can really do is offer my understanding and leave the rest up to the big Guy. But for the record I do believe in Satan and hell. Though my ideas on Satan and his place may differ from some Christian ideas.

As for sitting smug in our pews thinking that just coz we believe then we're going to get into heaven....sadly this is true for so many.

But just believing aint enough, the Bible says that faith without works is useless. I could believe but if my life doesn't show it then what good is it, especially when there could be someone somewhere else who never heard the name Jesus yet lives his essence more than some of the "proffesing" Christians who say one thing with their mouths yet live another life. I believe Jesus likened these people to the hypocritical Pharisees.

One question...what does LOL mean? :)

[This message has been edited by Francis Ritchie (edited August 04, 2000).]

Satan never exploded onto the Judeo-Christian scene until Jesus. Jews rarely mentioned him, and wen they did it was as a questioning mind.

Just an interesting fact.

Francis,

LOL means "Laughing Out Loud".

Here is a webpage that will help you out with smilies and acronyms (the acronyms are near the bottom of the page):

http://wellweb.com/behappy/smiley.htm

Enjoy!



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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Thanx heaps, I'll look that up some time.

Corp,

You're pretty much right on the Satan thing.
In the Old Testament Satan is a personality, but he is only reffered to usually as an accuser ie. In Job and Zechariah Chapter 3. Yet as we see things evolve he becomes an adversary to that which is good "the deceiver." Personally I don't believe that all of mans wrongs originate with him, I think he just helps us along and coaxes us into doing the wrong things. Ultimately though we are responsible for all we do. I've seen far to many fellow Christians blame all their wrongs on "Satan" without facing up to their own shortfalls, this was one of the reasons I ignored Christianity untill the last couple of years. I watched people try and drive demons out of my mother while I was very young, when all that was needed was a bit of TLC and in turn because this was what she was taught she did the same in our home whenever my sister or I had a problem. She's balanced out since then and now has a wonderful simple faith and it took me years of searching to begin to understand that this was not a reflection of God, merely the sensationalism of mankind, I now love all that is involed in my Christian identity and the adventure of a life with Jesus.

My point was that Satan never really came about until christianity. His biggest appearance was in Job, where he did Gods bidding.

It just seems funny that God never mentioned Satan before Jesus came along...

That depends on how you take some of the literature in the Bible. A good example is some of the references to the king of Tyre. It's only my understanding, but when you look at these passages it's hard to think they're talking about an earthly king. Metaphorical of Satan maybe? What's your opinion on the king of Tyre? :)