Christianity as the message of love



There is something that has always irked me when it comes to Christianity: its image of being a message of love, a faith of love.

Lovey-dovey, one might think.

But how in all this does God's severe judgement fit in? If God is loving -- why then does He sent some to hell?! How can God be so cruel to let people suffer, starve, murder eachother; how can God let tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, droughts and so on happen -- if He is to be a good God?!
Either there is no God, or God isn't loving at all. Or?

Next, we have the Christian tradition -- the Inquisition, the forceful conversions: Acts of love?



Christians, I challenge you to clear up this "message of love"!
Is Christianity indeed a "message of love and peace" -- or is this some perverted idea -- or how are we to understand such statements?

This might not be new but:

Ironically enough, Christianity would not be around today if it practiced what it preached.

As for God's senseless torture of his "children", we are only given this stroke of comfort by theologians: "We shouldn't dare question God's will and authority"

How convenient.

And for this reason, Christianity does survive the ages.

Suffering exists so that people would learn and become strong enough to stand on their own feet.

Suffering exists so that people would learn and become strong enough to stand on their own feet.
so the poor fuckers who drown in some flood/tsunami become stronger from that HOW? :rolleyes:

so the poor fuckers who drown in some flood/tsunami become stronger from that HOW? :rolleyes:

Those who die don't suffer, but those who lose someone they love, they suffer and become stronger.

My uncle died about two years ago at the age of 53, and my aunt is in the worst shape she has ever been in her life. She got really depressed, couldn't go to work, developed Leukemia, had to go through chemotherapy, and now lives with my cousin. She has luckily moved through the disease and is recovering successfully, but had to sell her house, and she now lives with my cousin. She doesn't work, she is on Welfare, and is basically living off the family's support. Ask her if her suffering has made her stronger.

Christianity as the message of love

There is something that has always irked me when it comes to Christianity: its image of being a message of love, a faith of love.

Lovey-dovey, one might think.

But how in all this does God's severe judgement fit in? If God is loving -- why then does He sent some to hell?! How can God be so cruel to let people suffer, starve, murder eachother; how can God let tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, droughts and so on happen -- if He is to be a good God?!
Either there is no God, or God isn't loving at all. Or?
God loves us, but He is also just. Judgment comes in where there is sin and transgression, which are exposed by laws. God's laws show his nature -- it shows us where we stand with Him, and they are readily accessible through our conscience. This is a relationship, and like any relationship it can be soured or strengthened. God gives us life; without God there is and would be no life. It is that life that we had in God that dies when sin owns us, and without God, we will die with it. Whether by natural causes or by natural causes (is there such a thing as unnatural causes?), violent or peaceful, during wars, famine, or in our sleep; we all die. We could ask why God allows it, but then we must also ask why God allows life. This earth, sometimes hostile and overwhelming as it is to us, nevertheless fostered and sustains biological life. But it is unaware of us; its forces do not act around us. It does what it needs to and gives what is has, but it is not God. We can't have nature and not need God.

There is also little doubt that there is real evil in the world. There are people who choose chaos and destruction as a way of life, and there are people who choose their own will above God's will. Now we come back to God's laws. If God's will that we love Him, and each other, were only a preference, then we could rightfully ask why there are consequences. But God requires it, love and peace requires it; fairness requires justice, and justice requires a judge.

The question is now why God allows people to act against Him, and therefore against other people. The answer is that God also allows people to act for Him, according to His will. To love and to show their character. The world isn't divided into criminals and saints, there are only people. Some voluntarily place themselves under a law, they regulate their own behaviour and have their behaviour regulated, others live according to their own law, or outside the law. What they do show who they are, and God will judge them accordingly. But we shouldn't confuse our justice with God's justice. The existence of evil doesn't mean it is tolerated, only that its final judgment is delayed.

The irony is that God is called "cruel" both for judging evil and for allowing it. People want it both ways. Just enough tolerance for a little evil, enough to allow some freedom of choice -- a quick lie, a spout of unfaithfulness, a little selfishness -- but not enough for something to go horribly wrong, not enough for the consequences to ever become fully realized. With this mentality, people remain pampered little children who know they could not bear the weight of responsibility once their sins have outgrown and overtaken them.

And the consequences for sin is death, and death without God is hell. Hell has become the symbol of everything God cannot tolerate, everything He despises, everything that is not Him and away from Him. The Jews and Christians, like Jesus himself, borrowed from sources around them to describe this state. It is because hell threatens to swallow us alive, because the reality of sin has overtaken us and guilt and fear threatens us, that we need God's love (Ps. 40:11-13), and why Christ answered with it. It is when we confess our sin and admit our need by turning to God ("repenting"), that we face God in humility and see His love clearly -- only then do we accept it, and can we express it and let it be the light of our lives.

Next, we have the Christian tradition -- the Inquisition, the forceful conversions: Acts of love?
Obviously not. Although atrocities committed in the name of Christianity are not automatically more evil than those committed under any other name, they are evidence of the same degeneracy, and the people involved are no doubt subject to the same judgment. The criterium will not be whether one professed to know God, but whether God in fact knows you. They had 1 Corinthians, they knew what it said:
1 Corinthians 8:3
But the man who loves God is known by God.
That those acts of intolerance were motivated by religion in spite of the Christian message makes their condemnation all the more deserved. Aren't those who judge and condemn using pre-Christian and non-Christian arguments effectively ignoring Christ? Drunk with the power of the Roman empire behind them, many Christians committed worse sins than those they professed to have been saved from. They continued the Roman tradition. They were "senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless" (Romans 1:31).

What we should learn from such examples is not to confuse man's application of justice (or lack of it) with God's judgment. That we can judge such crimes with some objectivity is a clue that we rely on a higher justice, but it should also be a clue that we should not rely too much on our own objectivity. It's that "superiority" that would deny that we will be judged by the same measure we use. God has the final word.
Christians, I challenge you to clear up this "message of love"!
Is Christianity indeed a "message of love and peace" -- or is this some perverted idea -- or how are we to understand such statements?
This "message of love" is based on a shallow understanding of the Bible, and more specifically a misunderstanding of Christ himself. The hippies also advocated "love and peace", yet their 'message' was far removed from Christianity.

Jesus did not preach love first, He preached judgment and repentence. He was the answer to the problem posed by the law: are you perfect? He was God's answer to the problem of suffering and injustice. When we suffer, we do not want scientific reasons and philosophical explanations, we want love, care, and healing. The healthy do not need a doctor. If you are perfect, you do not expect punishment or fear justice, but no perfection makes you immune to being a victim of sin or death. It's no coincidence that we feel life at its most glorious and meaningful when experience love, not when our conscience is clearest.

While we focus on the ideal, on "heaven", the contrast of suffering, pain and injustice become shockingly evident and offensive. But without such a backdrop we would not notice it. Even the word "conscience" means "with knowledge". In fact, we are so confident in our ability to discern between right and wrong, that we would even hold God to it if we could. But if we put man up as the ideal, the individual becomes supreme and the law loses, and if we put the law up as the ideal, control and authority becomes supreme and man loses; there is no man just or powerful enough to trust with enforcing the world.

People question God's wisdom for choosing to suffer with us and for us, rather than simply take us out of the world or "fixing" it (us). But instead of admitting defeat -- as if God cannot deal with suffering or imperfection and therefore neither can we -- God came to be with us. In the first place, He became sin for us, satisfying the requirement of perfect law, and He gave us the comfort and hope of knowing that our suffering is not in vain. Now He is not only waiting at the other end of life -- the perfect, righteous and enlightened end -- He also came under us, below us, to the death-end, to patiently support and catch us when we fall. So God is the beginning and the end, encompassing all. Everything from the worst sinner to the angels themselves. This is His love: that He enabled, not disabled us; gave meaning, not sidestepped it; He did not take away the victory from us, and through Christ we never have an excuse to admit defeat...
Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This frees us from whatever we fear, and permits us to love. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment." If we have to be freed at such a terrible cost, then it must mean that what we must be freed from is otherwise very real and threatening.

The law:
Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
The love:
1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Ask her if her suffering has made her stronger.

I'm sure it has made her stronger.

The meaning of suffering is not that it "makes you stronger". That's looking for reasons where there aren't any.

And remember people, if you are bad not only will you be punished - but your children, and your childrens children, and your childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens childrens children. They will be punished for your sins.

So sayeth god.

Jenyar: God loves us, but He is also just.
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M*W: You know, Jenyar, for nearly four years now I have been reading your posts, and it is becoming more and more obvious that you are consumed by your fantasy god. You believe you know how your god feels and what he thinks about humanity. You even appear to have an inside voice of your god's judgment of sin. You've created this image of god to suit your religious addictions. That's sad, because ultimately you are not existing in a state of conscious reality.
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Jenyar: Judgment comes in where there is sin and transgression, which are exposed by laws. God's laws show his nature -- it shows us where we stand with Him. This is a relationship, and like any relationship it can be soured or strengthened. God gives us life; without God there is and would be no life. It is that life that we had in God that dies when sin owns us, and without God, we will die with it. Whether by natural causes or by natural causes (is there such a thing as unnatural causes?), violent or peaceful, during wars, famine, or in our sleep; we all die. We could ask why God allows it, but then we must also ask why God allows life. This earth, sometimes hostile and overwhelming as it is to us, nevertheless fostered and sustains biological life. But it is unaware of us; its forces do not act around us. It does what it needs to and gives what is has, but it is not God. We can't have nature and not need God.
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M*W: You fantasize knowing god's 'nature,' and this is ridiculous. This even goes beyond reality! Please explain to the members of this forum god's 'nature.' We'd all like to know how the insane perceive god.
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Jenyar: There is also little doubt that there is real evil in the world. There are people who choose chaos and destruction as a way of life, and there are people who choose their own will above God's will. Now we come back to God's laws. If God's will that we love Him, and each other, were only a preference, then we could rightfully ask why there are consequences. But God requires it, love and peace requires it; fairness requires justice, and justice requires a judge.
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M*W: I can't help but laugh when I read your posts, and believe me, the only reason I read your posts is for a laugh! You write as if you are god's lawyer. You're explaining how god works! You try to defend god's 'preferences,' even those with 'consequences!' It's ludicrous.
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Jenyar: The question is now why God allows people to act against Him, and therefore against other people. The answer is that God also allows people to act for Him, according to His will.
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M*W: Here, you're speaking for your fantasy god. How the hell do you know who/what god is, and why do you fake your knowledge/perception of a god? You can't even prove a god exists -- but it truly does exist -- in your mind!
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Jenyar: To love and to show their character. The world isn't divided into criminals and saints, there are only people. Some voluntarily place themselves under a law, they regulate their own behaviour and have their behaviour regulated, others live according to their own law, or outside the law. What they do show who they are, and God will judge them accordingly. But we shouldn't confuse our justice with God's justice. The existence of evil doesn't mean it is tolerated, only that its final judgment is delayed.
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M*W: Talk about a waffler! God kills us and makes us suffer, but he loves us, yeah right. What a friggin' idiot you are. Have you ever heard Shakespeare's quote, "s/he doth protest too much." That's what you do. You have appointed yourself in the defense of your god. He's YOUR god -- not ours, and we know he doesn't exist!
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Jenyar: The irony is that God is called "cruel" both for judging evil and for allowing it. People want it both ways. Just enough tolerance for a little evil, enough to allow some freedom of choice -- a quick lie, a spout of unfaithfulness, a little selfishness -- but not enough for something to go horribly wrong, not enough for the consequences to ever become fully realized. With this mentality, people remain pampered little children who know they could not bear the weight of responsibility once their sins have outgrown them.
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M*W: Jenyar, get psychiatric help! You've created this fantasy god in your head, and that's the only place it is! You're imagining what other people do and how/why they sin. Bottom line, I think you have a god-complex! Kinda like the one Norman Bates had with his Mother. This is how I see you and your god. You're a mighty arrogant SOB. If you look like you have a split personality, and you walk like you have a split personality, and you talk like you have a split personality, by dammit, you have a split personality! Get help!!!
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Jenyar: And the consequences for sin is death, and death without God is hell. Hell has become the symbol of everything God cannot tolerate, everything He despises, everything that is not Him and away from Him. The Jews and Christians, like Jesus himself, borrowed from sources around them to describe this state.
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M*W: You really believe you are god! From where do you get your knowledge of god? Did he come to you in a dream? Did you see angels hovering over you? You really are deep into your fantasies.
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Jenyar: Although atrocities committed in the name of Christianity are not automatically more evil than those committed under any other name, they are evidence of the same degeneracy, and the people involved are no doubt subject to the same judgment. The criterium will not be whether one professed to know God, but whether God in fact knows you.
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M*W: So, you're saying that god knows you. Um huh. So please tell us how god knows you and you alone. How easy is that? God knows you. Tell us what god thinks about you, Jenyar, and what he would like to see you do with your life. And, while you're at it, cite some evidence, please.
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Jenyar: What we should learn from such examples is not to confuse man's application of justice (or lack of it) with God's judgment. That we can judge such crimes with some objectivity is a clue that we rely on a higher justice, but it should also be a clue that we should not rely too much on our own objectivity. It's that "superiority" that would deny that we will be judged by the same measure we use. God has the final word.
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M*W: So how will god judge the almighty prophet Jenyar? Seems like Jenyar is the only member of this forum who thinks he knows god personally. Then, that means the rest of us are doomed. After all, this is YOUR god.
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Jenyar: This "message of love" is based on a shallow understanding of the Bible, and more specifically a misunderstanding of Christ himself. The hippies also advocated "love and peace", yet their 'message' was far removed from Christianity.
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M*W: You have no idea what the hippies advocated. You weren't born then. I was there, I wore the beads and headbands. I burned my bra. I went to Woodstock. You are so deeply intrapped in the inner dark recesses of your sick mind, there really is no hope for someone like you. If there was a god, he'd definitely freak out when he saw you!
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Jenyar: Jesus did not preach love first, He preached judgment and repentence. He was the answer to the problem posed by the law: are you perfect? He was God's answer to the problem of suffering and injustice. When we suffer, we do not want scientific reasons and philosophical explanations, we want love, care, and healing. The healthy do not need a doctor. If you are perfect, you do not expect punishment or fear justice, but no perfection makes you immune to being a victim of sin or death. It's no coincidence that we feel life at its most glorious and meaningful when experience love, not when our conscience is clearest.
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M*W: You don't know what Jesus preached! All you know is what Paul wrote. If you want to know what Jesus actually said, read the Gnostic Gospels. Your last sentence says an awful lot about the split in your psyche. It's obvious that you are a lost soul.
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Jenyar: While we focus on the ideal, on "heaven", the contrast of suffering, pain and injustice become shockingly evident and offensive. But without such a backdrop we would not notice it. Even the word "conscience" means "with knowledge". In fact, we are so confident in our ability to discern between right and wrong, that we would even hold God to it if we could. But if we put man up as the ideal, the individual becomes supreme and the law loses, and if we put the law up as the ideal, control and authority becomes supreme and man loses; there is no man just or powerful enough to trust with enforcing the world.
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M*W: You have a lot of mixed messages in this post. You have made an effort to show the polar extremes which is obvious that your consciousness is constantly being torn between your options. You are psychologically being pulled apart by your own guilt and fear of no redemption. That's why you defend it so. You defend your fantasy. That's where you live.
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Jenyar: People question God's wisdom for choosing to suffer with us and for us, rather than simply take us out of the world or "fixing" it (us). But instead of admitting defeat -- as if God cannot deal with suffering or imperfection and therefore neither can we -- God came to be with us. In the first place, He became sin for us, satisfying the requirement of perfect law, and He gave us the comfort and hope of knowing that our suffering is not in vain. Now He is not only waiting at the other end of life -- the perfect, righteous and enlightened end -- He also came under us, below us, to the death-end, to patiently support and catch us when we fall. So God is the beginning and the end, encompassing all. Everything from the worst sinner to the angels themselves. This is His love: that He enabled, not disabled us; gave meaning, not sidestepped it; He did not take away the victory from us, and through Christ we never have an excuse to admit defeat...
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M*W: This is your fantasy -- not ours. It is really offensive when you preach in between the lines of your posts. All you're doing is trying to convince yourself that there really is a god. You protest too much, so you're obviously in conflict with your own mind. Get help!
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Jenyar: This frees us from whatever we fear, and permits us to love. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment." If we have to be freed at such a terrible cost, then it must mean that what we must be freed from is otherwise very real and threatening.
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M*W: Jenyar, you need help. You are propagating your fantasies of a god onto the rest of us. Your god is not who we want to hear about. You've created an entire personality of your god and are trying to sell it online. You've failed miserably. If you want to do some good, prove that a god exists. If a god existed, it wouldn't be yours alone, and we would all understand it. But to create a god in your mind, and then try to rampantly sell your creation is delusional. Seriously delusional. Good typing and sophisticated vocabulary cannot a true god make, and its a waste of the forum's time.

Jenyar,

Where you been, my man? Don't let the trolls bother you, they're on bad dope or something. Sprinkle a little holy water on them and watch the demons come out! Have you ever heard such hateful chatter! :eek:

I think you covered the original question well, though I might ad this, and I discussed it with my wife:

People have a choice to do what is good or evil, God could take away that choice and we would no longer see evil, but on the otherhand there would be no freedom.

"Why would a loving God send people to hell?" has been asked for ages. First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels. God has done everything he can do to keep people out of hell, but they want it their way. He can put up all the road blocks, caution signs, and warnings you could think of but the people just ignore it -- it's just fake they say, sure, sure there is a hell, right Jesus freak, we all just rot in the ground when we die! Wouldn't it be nice if it was so easy and OJ Simpson leaves this world a free man, Adolph Hitler checks out after killing six million jews, yeah live it up while the living's good, there is no price to pay!

If they don't want God in life they are without him in death, Hell is the absense of God, and that is where they go -- a place of perpetual decay, whereas heaven is a place of perpetual life.

As odd as it may seem, God loves everyone in hell including satan, but there is no hope for them, and he is quite perturbed about their choice. This love is only due to pure benevolence on His part.

PS: I think hell is somewhere near London, England. That's where I hear all the screams coming from.

First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels.

That's some very selective reading you're doing buddy.

Hell is the absense of God

Foolish me for thinking He was omnipresent

a place of perpetual decay

17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights..

Contradiction, no?

Hell is where the believers are. All of us.

Woody: Jenyar,

Where you been, my man? Don't let the trolls bother you, they're on bad dope or something. Sprinkle a little holy water on them and watch the demons come out! Have you ever heard such hateful chatter! :eek:
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M*W: So Jenyar is YOUR man? Now we know. You delusionists stick together so you don't have to face reality. Bottom line, there is no salvation through xianity! It's all a big lie. I've had a lot of holy water sprinkled on me, and the demons cowered down -- but so did the priests, but that's another issue. When I was in St. Peter's in Rome, the demons cowered down to me there, and that was my devoted religion!!! You do the math. The truth always comes out. Woody, you are not saved. You are a little stump of a man who hides behind your xian delusion -- just like Jenyar. Too bad you have a wife. You and Jenyar would make a fine couple worshipping your male god. Man, you two are too freaky! Is that why your username is "Woody?" Are you trying to advertise it?
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Woody: I think you covered the original question well, though I might ad this, and I discussed it with my wife:

People have a choice to do what is good or evil, God could take away that choice and we would no longer see evil, but on the otherhand there would be no freedom.

"Why would a loving God send people to hell?" has been asked for ages. First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels. God has done everything he can do to keep people out of hell, but they want it their way. He can put up all the road blocks, caution signs, and warnings you could think of but the people just ignore it -- it's just fake they say, sure, sure there is a hell, right Jesus freak, we all just rot in the ground when we die! Wouldn't it be nice if it was so easy and OJ Simpson leaves this world a free man, Adolph Hitler checks out after killing six million jews, yeah live it up while the living's good, there is no price to pay!
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M*W: Woody, you can't even prove there is a hell -- nor can you prove there's a heaven -- and you most definitely cannot prove there is a god! Your preaching falls on deaf ears. You are delusional, just like Jenyar.
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Woody: If they don't want God in life they are without him in death, Hell is the absense of God, and that is where they go -- a place of perpetual decay, whereas heaven is a place of perpetual life.
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M*W: And while you're at it, prove there is a place of perpetual life. How would you know who experiences the absense of god? You're a phony just like Jenyar. You two have the same delusion, just like 25% of the world's population have -- you're in the MINORITY! But you can't prove shit from shinola. I dare you to try -- try to prove there is a god, a heaven and a hell, and salvation. Have you read the history of xianity. I think not. If you can read, you would know that Jesus didn't die a savior.
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Woody: As odd as it may seem, God loves everyone in hell including satan, but there is no hope for them, and he is quite perturbed about their choice. This love is only due to pure benevolence on His part.
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M*W: God doesn't love anybody, because there is no god that exists! You and Jenyar make up this humanized dying demigod savior who never existed. There is no god. There is no heaven. There is no hell. There is no salvation. You two dumb shits are lost and delusional!
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Woody: PS: I think hell is somewhere near London, England. That's where I hear all the screams coming from.
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M*W: Hell is in South Afrika. That's where Jenyar is. Where are you my wooden fiend?

Ask her if her suffering has made her stronger.

I'm sure it has made her stronger.

Bull. She is now mentally unstable, still extremely depressed, and is living a dull life living off the family's support. She looks like she has aged 20 years in the past couple years. Not all hardship makes you stronger. I have seen it first hand.

PS: I think hell is somewhere near London, England. That's where I hear all the screams coming from.

Thought I was on ignore? Ah well it's not an issue.

But tell me.. What problem did you see with my post exactly? Is it not what god said?

It seems you just prefer to turn this into some personal attack rather than debate the issues or refute them with any substance. That shows weakness of character.

And remember people, if you are bad not only will you be punished - but your children, and your childrens children, and your childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens childrens children. They will be punished for your sins.

So sayeth god.
Jeremiah 31:29-30
"In those days people will no longer say,
'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.'
Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes-his own teeth will be set on edge.

Ezekiel 18:1-4; 29
The word of the LORD came to me: "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?"
In all cases, your objection comes from God's declaration of his love and justice -- the two things I talked about. God shows love to the thousandth (equivalent to the proverbial "n-th") generation, but he is also just, punishing sin -- but not indefinitely, not without hope. Nowhere does it say anyone will go to hell from that punishment, as if that punishment means death or eternal rejection. After all, what use is punishment if it cannot lead to repentance, and what is forgiveness if the punishment has to end in hell? Hell is when there is no repentance left, it comes after someone has rejected God's forgiveness by not admitting your sin, and is in that sense the final punishment. But the warning is always coupled with certainty of forgiveness, which is why we read in Numbers 14:
Numbers 14:17-19
"Now may the Lord's strength be displayed, just as you have declared: 'The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.'In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now."
The issue in that second part must be the sins of the father (who bear the guilt), not of the children, although they inherit the punishment if they persist in their father's sins. The children suffer because they were the parents' responsibility, and their parents' ways become their own. Sin has consequences. But God's forgiveness means children cannot blame their parents for their own sins anymore, because there is always love: they are responsible for their own lives and their own children. Inheritance, consequences, do not have the final say.

The question everyone must ask is, "in which of those two categories do I fall?": If you are suffering for your parents' sins, do not continue in them; if you expect punishment for your own sins, repent from them. Here are all the verses in question (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:4-6;Exodus%2034:6-8;Numbers%2014:17-19;Deuteronomy%205:8-10;&version=31;). Please show me where it suggests that punishment is final.
Isaiah 30:15
This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.

First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels.

That's some very selective reading you're doing buddy.

Hell is the absense of God

Foolish me for thinking He was omnipresent

a place of perpetual decay

17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights..

Contradiction, no?

Hell is where the believers are. All of us.

Southstar said it twice,

“ First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels. ”

That's some very selective reading you're doing buddy.

OH come now, I see I pressed your hot button. Earth was created for man, hence we are here.


“ Hell is the absense of God ”

Foolish me for thinking He was omnipresent

Do you really believe he is omnipresent or is this a come-on statement? I believe God is omnipresent, and he knows what goes on in hell, and he is even present there, but nobody there will ever know it. The psalmist, David, made a statement to that effect. Hell is the total absense of a relationship with God. Nonbelievers are granted their one wish for all eternity -- no God.

“ a place of perpetual decay ”


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights..

Contradiction, no?

Hell is where the believers are. All of us.

No contradiciton here at all. Hell is not a gift, it is a place that somebody works for -- some harder than others.

God also sends plagues in the end times. One of these plagues is wormwood a "star" about 5 miles in diameter (the size of an asteroid that is prophesized to collide with the earth). As a result of the collision about 1/3 of all life on earth will die, and a drastic climatic change will be effected. This is starting to sound like the evolutionary explaination for the death of dinosaurs -- another subject for another day.

The reason I say "wormwood" is probably an asteroid about 5 miles in diameter: there is an asteroid belt in our solar system that poses this eventual threat, there is a group of people in the observatories that constantly monitor this potential threat. A collision with an asteroid this size could conceivably cause the drastic changes mentioned in the bible. In reality it could be a collision with some other heavenly body like a comet, or some other piece of space debris. It's just a matter of time before the earth catchs a big meteor.

That's some very selective reading you're doing buddy.
Then please provide information that says otherwise. We have
Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Do you have evidence that outweighs this?

Foolish me for thinking He was omnipresent
God is not limited to omnipresence. He can keep his presence from some places, and manifest his presence in others. He may visit all places, and see everywhere, but that does not mean He lives there, or as Woody says, that a relationship with Him is possible everywhere.
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights..

Contradiction, no?

Hell is where the believers are. All of us.
Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.

Bull. She is now mentally unstable, still extremely depressed, and is living a dull life living off the family's support. She looks like she has aged 20 years in the past couple years. Not all hardship makes you stronger. I have seen it first hand.

I'm not saying that everyone who loses their life will instantly be stronger, it takes lots of time, several lives.

Jenyar said,

The irony is that God is called "cruel" both for judging evil and for allowing it. People want it both ways. Just enough tolerance for a little evil, enough to allow some freedom of choice -- a quick lie, a spout of unfaithfulness, a little selfishness -- but not enough for something to go horribly wrong, not enough for the consequences to ever become fully realized. With this mentality, people remain pampered little children who know they could not bear the weight of responsibility once their sins have outgrown them.

You are right on target, and it explains my life before I became a christian. I wanted everyone to obey the laws of God, except, I had a little sin I wanted to continue in my own life. Anybody else that had my flaw was ok, but if they wanted to be a murderer, homosexual, a drunkard, a thieve, no-no-no that was wrong! Without a standard, people pick and choose right and wrong, and nobody can agree. Yet the bible says he that offends on one point of the law has broken the law -- no exceptions.

I'm not saying that everyone who loses their life will instantly be stronger, it takes lots of time, several lives.

Several lives, WTF are you talking about? First of all, there is no such thing as multiple lives. Second, even if there were, memory of previous lives would not carry over to other lives.

Several lives, WTF are you talking about? First of all, there is no such thing as multiple lives. Second, even if there were, memory of previous lives would not carry over to other lives.

It doesn't have to do with memory. The body always matches the inside. In your next life, you will gain a body which matches "you" at the end of this life. If a gorilla wants to become a human in its next life, it first has to achieve the highest state as a gorilla. The self is already complete, only the body needs to devolop to realize the self.

OMFG you are out of your mind.

twilight zone again a yorda.

was'nt you beaten senseless by M*W and again by mis-t-highs in regard to your delusions of the self, yorda.
you do clearly need to see a doctor, or a least stop taking the drugs, thay are f**king you up.
was that you I was talking to on the site that misty posted, "we've had AI for 6000yrs"
I think it was.

was'nt you beaten senseless by M*W and again by mis-t-highs in regard to your delusions of the self, yorda.
you do clearly need to see a doctor, or a least stop taking the drugs, thay are f**king you up.
was that you I was talking to on the site that misty posted, "we've had AI for 6000yrs"
I think it was.

as much as i am averse to literalists, and
science people who will have no openess for spiritual experience. i think you are out of order with the abuse you're givin to Yorda, that she needs a doctor, is fucked up, and in need of drugs

THAt attitude is the eptiome of this era and is commensurate with the preceeding era. where the latter tries to pathologize any views not agreed with, the former called any such dissent, hersy and ....you know the rest
Surely you can debate without making such personal attacks on someone. the only on it shows up is you

was'nt you beaten senseless by M*W and again by mis-t-highs in regard to your delusions of the self, yorda.

No

you do clearly need to see a doctor, or a least stop taking the drugs, thay are f**king you up.

lol

was that you I was talking to on the site that misty posted, "we've had AI for 6000yrs"

No

Jenyar, i was eating a hamburger and reading your first reply to this forum and i literaly lost my apetite. it makes me sick how one person can be so diluted by one idea and totaly oblivious to ones surroundings. You stated many things that are completly idiotic. could you explain a few things to me. You state that god gives us life and without god their would be no life. Please explain this to me because i see no reason why this could possibly be true. Obviously you are addicted to authority I'm sure you used to do everything your mother told you, because you were afraid of the concequences. You also state the there people who chose chaos and destruction as a way of life. give me one example of something that is chaotic in this world. What is so horrible about destruction. As a young child i remember building little buildings with blocks and destroying them with a projectile. What is so wrong with that. But i guess the evil your talking about is terrorists that attacked us on 911. but to those terroists they were making an attack on evil. You assume that everone in the world thinks like you do. well i think im going to stop now because no matter what i say it will never change your opinion.

It says in the Bible to "believe by faith, not by sight", so there is no concrete scientific evidence, but even Darwin rejected his own theory and became Christian and Albert Einstein made a case for the Creator. Hell is for the devil and his angels, and for those who choose not to accept that Jesus took their sins from them when he died on the cross. God cannot look upon sin. By accepting Jesus you become sinless in the eyes of God, for your sins were atoned for at the crucifixion. God does not turn his back on you. If you do not repent and instead reject the gift of salvation, you sins are not atoned for and you will be choosing to go to hell, since God cannot look upon sin.

It says in the Bible to "believe by faith, not by sight", so there is no concrete scientific evidence, but even Darwin rejected his own theory and became Christian and Albert Einstein made a case for the Creator. Hell is for the devil and his angels, and for those who choose not to accept that Jesus took their sins from them when he died on the cross. God cannot look upon sin. By accepting Jesus you become sinless in the eyes of God, for your sins were atoned for at the crucifixion. God does not turn his back on you. If you do not repent and instead reject the gift of salvation, you sins are not atoned for and you will be choosing to go to hell, since God cannot look upon sin.
I have just posted on your thread "Big Bang Theory -Foolish-"
please go there and read about darwin and einstein, because you need to, to get your facts straight. this has been said many times but it needs to be said again, there are over 650 bad deeds in the bible done by or because of your god, and just over 50 atributed to the devil and none of the devils ever killed anyone, the devil gets bad press.
please read your bible, and study other information fully, before making an assertion thank you.
also study up on free will there are many threads about these things and more on sciforums.
I have no belief in god/gods devils/demons, I am an atheist.(just so you dont think I'm a satanist)

deundy do you have a thing about the preacher, as I see no more malice in his statement than in musta and aborteds statements

Jenyar, i was eating a hamburger and reading your first reply to this forum and i literaly lost my apetite. it makes me sick how one person can be so diluted by one idea and totaly oblivious to ones surroundings.
If you lose your appetite so easily, you should know better than to eat while reading the religion forum! Maybe I can show you how my beliefs make me see my surroundings.

You stated many things that are completly idiotic. could you explain a few things to me. You state that god gives us life and without god their would be no life. Please explain this to me because i see no reason why this could possibly be true.
God gives us life in more sense than one: He created the world and everything in it -- without Him we would not have existed. That accounts for our biological existence, but there is more to a 'life' than merely being able to breathe. Without God, this life would mean nothing more than that. But we are aware of a spiritual dimension to our lives, something that gives meaning. You can attach this dimension to any created thing, make it your 'god' and serve it (usually implicitly). Or you can attach it to something greater than you (usually explicitly) in the hope that it will help you transcend this life. Only the God who created life can logically do that. Only God can restore your biological life, and therefore sustain your "spiritual" life.

Without Him, you lose the life and meaning He gives... much more than just breathing.

Obviously you are addicted to authority I'm sure you used to do everything your mother told you, because you were afraid of the concequences.
I respect them because I love them. They never once "pulled rank" on me, and I never had anything to be afraid of. Their love enabled me to see what real authority was, more than any punishment they ever gave, and it ultimately helped me to acknowledge Who it belonged to.

You also state the there people who chose chaos and destruction as a way of life. give me one example of something that is chaotic in this world. What is so horrible about destruction. As a young child i remember building little buildings with blocks and destroying them with a projectile. What is so wrong with that. But i guess the evil your talking about is terrorists that attacked us on 911. but to those terrorists they were making an attack on evil. You assume that everone in the world thinks like you do. well i think im going to stop now because no matter what i say it will never change your opinion.
You don't know that nothing you say could ever change my opinion, you presume it.

What's so wrong with destruction? Nothing, as long as it's just bricks and blocks. They can be rebuilt, and something better might even come from it. So the terrorists think America is evil, and America think the terrorists are evil.

The difference is that lives are involved, and therefore there is meaning attached. If people really thought of themselves as mere evolutionary fodder, bricks and blocks of nature -- glorified primordial goo -- then maybe such mutual destruction would have been regarded as meaningless at best, necessary at worst. Mere chaos ordering and disordering itself. But if meaning isn't an illusion, and lives have real worth, then we had better think long and hard before we dip into such chaos, and act like some blind force of nature or some enraged animal for whom mere action equals justice. We had better ask ourselves what being human means. Too many people seem to conclude: "nothing" -- not to us, not to God. Because we feel arbitrary, and have made God arbitrary.
It is hard to have patience with people who say "There is no death" or "Death doesn't matter." There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter. -- CS Lewis

As for God's senseless torture of his "children", we are only given this stroke of comfort by theologians: "We shouldn't dare question God's will and authority"

How convenient.

§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§weeeetie, how many theologians do you know?


* * *


so the poor fuckers who drown in some flood/tsunami become stronger from that HOW?

Would you rather that the whole planet Earth would always have nice calm weather and (more than) enough resources for everyone?

Do you find it injust that weather conditions can be very dangerous and that resources are limited?


* * *


My uncle died about two years ago at the age of 53, and my aunt is in the worst shape she has ever been in her life. She got really depressed, couldn't go to work, developed Leukemia, had to go through chemotherapy, and now lives with my cousin. She has luckily moved through the disease and is recovering successfully, but had to sell her house, and she now lives with my cousin. She doesn't work, she is on Welfare, and is basically living off the family's support. Ask her if her suffering has made her stronger.

I think you are just being angry.
Your aunt's life isn't over yet, and none of us really knows what she is going through, inside.


* * *


And remember people, if you are bad not only will you be punished - but your children, and your childrens children, and your childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens childrens children. They will be punished for your sins.
So sayeth god.

Don't you ever get tired of repeating the same thing over and over again?


* * *


You've created this image of god to suit your religious addictions.

And you can conclusively prove that your image of god isn't something created by you to suit your religious addictions?


M*W: I can't help but laugh when I read your posts, and believe me, the only reason I read your posts is for a laugh!

My dear Shooshoo, you read Jenyar's post because you find a truth in them -- and it is a truth about you. If they would indeed be so completely and utterly ludicrous as you say, you wouldn't even touch them with a ten-foot pole. But I see you, over and over again, answering his posts, paying your attention and time to his posts.

You paying attention and time to his posts says more about you than anything you say here.


M*W: Talk about a waffler! God kills us and makes us suffer, but he loves us, yeah right. What a friggin' idiot you are. Have you ever heard Shakespeare's quote, "s/he doth protest too much." That's what you do.

Thou dost protest too much.


You have appointed yourself in the defense of your god. He's YOUR god -- not ours, and we know he doesn't exist!

And you have appointed yourself in the defense of your god.


If you look like you have a split personality, and you walk like you have a split personality, and you talk like you have a split personality, by dammit, you have a split personality! Get help!!!

Have you ever seen him walk? Have you any empiric evidence for your conclusions?


M*W: So how will god judge the almighty prophet Jenyar? Seems like Jenyar is the only member of this forum who thinks he knows god personally. Then, that means the rest of us are doomed. After all, this is YOUR god.

If, according to you, he is talking about his god anyway, and that god, according to you, has nothing to do with you -- then you are not addressed by Jenyar's post anyway. So why do you keep fussing? Or will you obstruct the right to have an opinion?


You are so deeply intrapped in the inner dark recesses of your sick mind, there really is no hope for someone like you. If there was a god, he'd definitely freak out when he saw you!

Looked into the miror, huh?


M*W: You have a lot of mixed messages in this post. You have made an effort to show the polar extremes which is obvious that your consciousness is constantly being torn between your options. You are psychologically being pulled apart by your own guilt and fear of no redemption. That's why you defend it so. You defend your fantasy. That's where you live.

It takes one to know one ...


M*W: Jenyar, you need help.

Alright, you have told him to get help for -- what, a few hundred times by now? And he still hasn't done anything to please you.

Did it ever occur to you that your method of approaching him is not successful?
That you are showing that you are the mad one, in that you keep repeating the same thing over and over again, and yet you expect a different result?


* * *


Bottom line, there is no salvation through xianity!

And you know this *now*, for a fact, while you are still alive?


M*W: Hell is in South Afrika. That's where Jenyar is. Where are you my wooden fiend?

Hell is round the corner.

Jenyar,

My man, I warned you about sprinkling holy water on those trolls! Have you ever heard such hateful chatter? Why don't you do like me and send them to the phantom zone where they belong? Use your "ignore list" it was given for a pupose. Don't take their comments personally -- consider the source as my mother-in-law says.

I can tell you one thing, I would never let MW see me as a health professional.

When you speak about Christianity she begins frothing like she has rabies. Is she demon possessed? I wonder.

PS: You've shown me a lot more than any of those clowns that get all bent out of shape about the bible -- ohh don't they hate it though? :cool:

Jenyar,
you seem so sure that god created everything. show me evidence of this. o sorry you cant. Your wasting time with your beliefs and you really take your religion too seriously. If you need religion to guide you through life and bieng a decent person ok ill accept that. But you take it to cult status you seriously need help.The funny part is you will never know that you are wrong; that my friend is truly pathetic.

Heretic is in the phantom zone. I don't hear him. too bad. HAR HAR

He prooved something alright -- he has nothing worth listening to.

Dis here is the message of love, Do-Dah Do-Dah -- sing it Jimi! :D

Snicker Snicker

you can run away from the truth all you want. Do really think christianity is gaining members. The fact of the matter is your god is dying and nothing you can do will save him. 50-100 years god is dead and no one will really give a damn.

There is a muffled sound from down below. I think it is heretic.

TheHeretic: you can run away from the truth all you want. Do really think christianity is gaining members. The fact of the matter is your god is dying and nothing you can do will save him. 50-100 years god is dead and no one will really give a damn.
*************
M*W: Welcome, TheHeretic! I'm sure you will find many birds of a feather here! I've always said this will happen in my lifetime, but I'm running out of time! God, how much I want to see xianity die!!!

50-100 years god is dead and no one will really give a damn.

The "Christian" God may be forgotten after some centuries, although it will still exist as a "myth" like the Maya, Sumerian, Egyptian and Greek Gods. Wise people know that all religions talk about the one and the same God. Only the clothes have changed, names have changed. No one says Ptah anymore when they talk about God, but once in Egypt that was as real as Jehova. When we really have found ourselves, the living God inside us, we don't have to talk about it anymore, we will live in truth, and we will be the truth itself.

Old things pass away, then comes the new. The energy is vanishing from the religions of today, but a new teacher will be born, and a new religion will be born. Religions are only a body for the truth, not the truth itself. There is only ONE God, who clothes itself in all forms. The self never dies. Yoga is not a religion, it can't die. In Himalaya there are not spiritual directions, which would be dependant on fashions which come and go. The mission in life is to find oneself.

darlas: It says in the Bible to "believe by faith, not by sight", so there is no concrete scientific evidence, but even Darwin rejected his own theory and became Christian and Albert Einstein made a case for the Creator.
*************
M*W: Do you have evidence for this?
*************
darlas: Hell is for the devil and his angels, and for those who choose not to accept that Jesus took their sins from them when he died on the cross.
*************
M*W: Can you prove Jesus died on the cross. I think not.
*************
darlas: God cannot look upon sin. By accepting Jesus you become sinless in the eyes of God, for your sins were atoned for at the crucifixion.
*************
M*W: This is bullshit!
*************
darlas: God does not turn his back on you. If you do not repent and instead reject the gift of salvation, you sins are not atoned for and you will be choosing to go to hell, since God cannot look upon sin.
*************
M*W: darlas, you are so full of shit. Why, oh why, would you come to this forum to spill this bullshit? Don't you know you are an idiot? There is no god, and there is no savior. You are totally lost. No salvation for you, my friend.

Jenyar;Woody i feel bad for you. Both of you let an imaginary entity control your life. Jenyar i really think your crazy i think you need a perscription for valium or something.

TheHeretic: Jenyar;Woody i feel bad for you. Both of you let an imaginary entity control your life. Jenyar i really think your crazy i think you need a perscription for valium or something.
*************
M*W: So true, so true! Jenyar is totally deranged and Woody, well, Woody is an idiot. What can I say? These two "xians" are lost and godless. I'd like to see them standing before a firing squad. In fact, I'd like to see every xian standing before a firing squad. They deserve it!!!

Yorda. were in a different situation than those ancient religions they failed because there society failed this is cleary a different situation than the current state of christianity. Christianity is being replace by science.

Heretic...

Don't you think science will find "God" too?
What will the science find? Will it only find the universe?
Will it not find the origin of the universe, the human self?
Can't scientists believe in themselves? Can scientists only believe in the universe?

Yorda,

I'll give you credit where it is due -- at least you are kind to people. Unfortunately you don't get the same in return because the golden rule doesn't work with antimatter.

I hope you find God in your search, but I really believe you only have one life to do it in.

take care

Thanks, Woody. It's a good thing to believe that you only have one life, that way you may reach God faster.
I think Matthew 17:10-13 says that John is a reincarnation Elijah. What do you think it means?

Water said about M*W,

you are showing that you are the mad one, in that you keep repeating the same thing over and over again, and yet you expect a different result?

Water, I heard a good quote today:

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result."

Sound familiar? :bugeye:

Yorga said,

Thanks, Woody. It's a good thing to believe that you only have one life, that way you may reach God faster.
I think Matthew 17:10-13 says that John is a reincarnation Elijah. What do you think it means?

Ok, I'll try to answer this one. There are two people in the bible that were fortunate enough to leave this world without dieing: one was Elijah and the other was Enoch.

The bible says that it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgement -- but what about these two?

In the time of Jesus some people supposed that Elijah had returned as John the Baptist, based on Malichi 4:5:

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Jesus said to the effect that John the Baptist was Elijah, so it is possible that Elijah was incarnated into John the Baptist, but remember that Elijah had not died. It is also possible that John the Baptist had the position of Elijah in his ministry, and this was a metaphorical statement by Jesus.

At the mount of transfiguration, both Moses and Elijah were seen by the disciples that were with Jesus. Hence it seems John the Baptist was not Elijah, but of course John the Baptist was already killed by this time.

However, according to the book of the revelation, there will be two witnesses sent from heaven to earth that have walked on this earth before, and many christians believe those two witnesses will be none other than Elijah and Enoch, who have not experienced death yet. Some might argue that Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses, but we know both witnesses will be put to death, hence Moses dies twice.

There will also be a group of people that never experience death, and they will be taken straight to heaven during the great tribulation period.

Woody,

Quote W:
"There will also be a group of people that never experience death, and they will be taken straight to heaven during the great tribulation period.'

I feel sincere sorrow for you Woody. Disappointment is a hardcore emotion.

Allcare.

It's telling -- seeing so much hatred and resentment in response to my post. What could be so offensive about it? If I had to guess...

In the first place, because it requires that God exists, which is by default offensive to many -- whoever and however He might be. Their faith is in science (specifically modern science, coupled with the post-modern worldview), and they would stake everything on it. If one takes the modern (20th century) method for granted, one's first reaction is almost programmed to be outrage and indignation. This initial reaction then colours anything further that might be said. A prejudice against what we cannot see through our looking glass effectively disables one from seeing anything more. This presupposes conflict, as if the modern model should be "common sense" and anything else "madness".

The existence of a loving God would mean all "religious" arguments against God would lose their power. Arguments like SnakeLord's or M*W's, that depend on God being only vengeful and hateful -- such rejection of God relies on God being rejectionable to seem reasonable. A loving God makes that argument very difficult to hold. The Pharisees also had the law, and applied it extremely strictly, but they also didn't account for God's love. This is why Jesus said:
Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices — mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practised the latter, without neglecting the former.
Focussing on the law and neglecting love has the consequence of shutting God out of people's lives, instead of letting Him in when He is most needed.
Matt.23:13-15
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. ... You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Stretched,

I feel sincere sorrow for you Woody. Disappointment is a hardcore emotion.

Stretched, How am I disappointed with Jesus? It hasn't happened yet, though there have been many opportunities.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Jesus said to the effect that John the Baptist was Elijah, so it is possible that Elijah was incarnated into John the Baptist, but remember that Elijah had not died.

It's true that Elijah himself did not die, but what about his earthly body? Will people who come to heaven take their bodies with them?

haha...you mean like as in 'ok, you lot who are coming to heaven. please will you meet in the cafeteria and make suree you have your body to bring wih you"

this is toooo freaky

Yorda science will never prove a god exists. It will never prove that it doesnt exist either because you cant prove something doesnt exist. If i believe in little gnomes that steal my socks at night there is no way anyone can disprove that.

Yorda asked,

It's true that Elijah himself did not die, but what about his earthly body? Will people who come to heaven take their bodies with them?

Good question, and the bible has answers. We can discuss this offline if you wish, and I have a mail box. To get there you can click on my name, (next to my avatar).

The bible says flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God, and that our corruptible bodies can not inherit incorruption. (Ist Corinthians 15:50)

Jesus is the example of immortality. His body was transfigured after he died, and yet it was still a physical body. He sat down and ate a meal with his disciples. Mark16:14, Luke24:41&42, John Chapter 21. He could appear and vanish at will.

In heaven, those who have trusted Jesus will be made like him. They will have a body, a soul, and a spirit incarnate. The spirit and the soul are not the same thing. Every human has a soul, but only those who have accepted God's gift of life within themselves have a spirit. This is referred to as the new birth or being "born again." It is a spiritual birth, and the spirit actually belongs to God himself. I am born again -- I share my body and soul with his spirit, and there is no pretense -- because I want it that way. The spirit within me is what gives me new life, and it is a good, decent, and kind spirit. Without it I was just another person destined for a life without God.

I hope this is answering your question. I am not afraid to testify about my faith to anyone -- regardless of the sneers, remarks, unkind things that are said, because I know those people rejected Jesus before they rejected me. It is not my personal issue -- rather it is their personal issue with the God I believe in. Jesus too was rejected, shouldn't I expect the same?

take care and God bless

Christianity as the message of love



There is something that has always irked me when it comes to Christianity: its image of being a message of love, a faith of love.

Lovey-dovey, one might think.

But how in all this does God's severe judgement fit in? If God is loving -- why then does He sent some to hell?! How can God be so cruel to let people suffer, starve, murder eachother; how can God let tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, droughts and so on happen -- if He is to be a good God?!
Either there is no God, or God isn't loving at all. Or?

Next, we have the Christian tradition -- the Inquisition, the forceful conversions: Acts of love?



Christians, I challenge you to clear up this "message of love"!
Is Christianity indeed a "message of love and peace" -- or is this some perverted idea -- or how are we to understand such statements?

You have never hurt some one you love?

Jenyar: It's telling -- seeing so much hatred and resentment in response to my post. What could be so offensive about it? If I had to guess...
*************
M*W: Your posts are offensive because they are fictional stories from your deluded mind. However, I will credit you with creative writing abilities. Your subject matter is offensive because it is nothing but lies... lies that you believe to be true, that are simply figments of your delusions.
*************
Jenyar: In the first place, because it requires that God exists, which is by default offensive to many -- whoever and however He might be. Their faith is in science (specifically modern science, coupled with the post-modern worldview), and they would stake everything on it.
*************
M*W: You assume a lot, don't you? You think you know god, but you assume the concept -- just like you assume to know the members of sciforums and our personal philosophies. You have created an image of a higher power in your mind, and you've created "Him" (your male god) with feelings, emotions, rationality, judgment, and so on... Your god seems so real to you and the handful of other xian members who share in the delusion.
*************
Jenyar: The existence of a loving God would mean all "religious" arguments against God would lose their power. Arguments like SnakeLord's or M*W's, that depend on God being only vengeful and hateful -- such rejection of God relies on God being rejectionable to seem reasonable.
*************
M*W: There you go again, tap dancing ever faster to give the allusion that you can prove a gods existence. The other atheists and I don't 'reject' a god. We don't believe it exists to reject it. How can one reject something that doesn't exist?
*************
Jenyar: A loving God makes that argument very difficult to hold. The Pharisees also had the law, and applied it extremely strictly, but they also didn't account for God's love. This is why Jesus said:
*************
M*W: Quote deleted. You don't know, in fact, what Jesus might have said. Everything in the NT was written or influenced by Paul.
*************
Jenyar: Focussing on the law and neglecting love has the consequence of shutting God out of people's lives, instead of letting Him in when He is most needed.
*************
M*W: Again, you are assuming or creating these delusions in your mind. Obviously, you've let these storybook characters into your mind, and they've created your delusions. There's a great drug on the market called Seroquel. You need it desperately to get rid of your demons.

Heretic said,

Jenyar;Woody i feel bad for you. Both of you let an imaginary entity control your life. Jenyar i really think your crazy i think you need a perscription for valium or something.

Jenyar, does this person show us he cares about others? Maybe he does, but it just remains to be seen.

People thought Columbus was crazy when he said the earth was round. Nobody could see it hence he was a deluded man according to everyone else.

And lookie, the Flat Earth Society finally died, when was it? the 1970's? According to flat-earthers the moon mission was all a big masquerade. Space photographs were all contrived. Weightlessness in space was a hollywood trick. The landing at the moon was a hollywood set, the spacecraft were all landed safely in a remote location after take off (they really did not go into space). There was a logical explanation for everything they believed, just like people can explain away everything about the bible.

And this dude, named Heretic, is going to tell us the same about our God that we know exists, and call us crazy because he hasn't seen it with his own eyeballs. Then he says he's sorry for us. We're sorry that he doesn't have eternal life. So everybody agrees to be sorry for someone.

At least we have a little bit of common ground to work with.

If i believe in little gnomes that steal my socks at night there is no way anyone can disprove that.

Now come on, you don't believe that, why would a gnome want dirty socks anyway? **Blink **Blink Now I get the connection -- if you give a ridiculous, unrealistic example, then the responder is forced to give a ridiculous unrealistic response, or appear like he can not answer the question directly when it is really just a smokescreen. In Conclusion: an answer is not wanted though a question is asked. So why bother answering it at all?

Webpage of the Flat-Earth Society (http://www.flat-earth.org/)

People knew the Earth was round way before Columbus. Some greek guy even calculated the size of the Earth fairly accurately. But I digress...

Spidergoat,

Now that you mention it.

The earliest known reference I have about a round earth comes from

Isaiah 40:

21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23
That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

You wouldn't happen to have a reference earlier than this one would you?


PS here's a chuckle from the flat-earther's FAQs:

20. Does Idaho exist?

No. The existence of Idaho is a lie, fabricated by a conspiracy of cartographers, as is England (see question 10).

21. What about North Dakota?
That doesn't exist either.

22. Any other places which are believed to exist but really don't?
Yes, Australia. And then there are the cryptogeographica, places such as Kadath, Carcosa, Hobbiton, Narnia, Hy-Brasil, Hell and such whose existence has not been satisfactorily proven.

How about that? England doesn't exist at all and Hell's existence is not completely proven yet. Well at least now we know Hell is more real than England!

This web site doesn't exist because it comes from australia which doesn't exist. What am I doing here? :eek:

Spidergoat,

Now that you mention it.

The earliest known reference I have about a round earth comes from

Isaiah 40:

Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23
That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

You wouldn't happen to have a reference earlier than this one would you?

Oh G-d.

Do I even need to tell you why this popular apologetic is faulty? READ the verse in context. If you still can't get it tell me.

§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§weeeetie, how many theologians do you know?

I know the inspired ones who penned God's Holy Word. If that isn't enough, I've read up on some of the more recent ones who like to 'expand' on the words written by the inspired.

And then I know Christians.

Southstar says "circle" doesn't mean "round." Are you in with the flat earth gang too? (** just kidding of course)

I know the inspired ones who penned God's Holy Word

Good, how about sharing their names.

Southstar says "circle" doesn't mean "round." Are you in with the flat earth gang too? (** just kidding of course)

Daniel, Isaiah, and John recruited me. Let's not forget good ol' John Alexander Dowie.


Good, how about sharing their names.

You might want to check the New Testament.

Then please provide information that says otherwise. We have
Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Do you have evidence that outweighs this?

Funny how you of all people should demand "evidence" for a claim.. :D

I'm not sure if you even read the verse in context, but "you who are cursed" clearly indicates God never wrote their names in the Book of Life.

Unless you have evidence that outweighs this.


God is not limited to omnipresence. He can keep his presence from some places, and manifest his presence in others. He may visit all places, and see everywhere, but that does not mean He lives there, or as Woody says, that a relationship with Him is possible everywhere.

Nothing much to say here. I could swear you made all this up - since you have no evidence to support this.

Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.

Deuteronomy 7:2
"and when the Lord your God gives then [the enemies] over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them..."

Numbers 31:7
They warred against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and slew every male.

Numbers 31:17
[Moses said to them] "... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by lying with him..."


Thank goodness for comfort.

OH come now, I see I pressed your hot button. Earth was created for man, hence we are here.

I thought the Earth was created for God.

Self righteous..


Do you really believe he is omnipresent or is this a come-on statement? I believe God is omnipresent, and he knows what goes on in hell, and he is even present there, but nobody there will ever know it. The psalmist, David, made a statement to that effect. Hell is the total absense of a relationship with God. Nonbelievers are granted their one wish for all eternity -- no God.


If nobody will ever know it, then how do you know any of what you are saying?

And how do you know Hell is the total absence of a relationship with God? I have heard some say Hell is the full presence of God, and this is what tortures the souls of the damned, for they loathe His presence.

So what justification is there for your assumption? None?


No contradiciton here at all. Hell is not a gift, it is a place that somebody works for -- some harder than others.

And you arrived at this assumption how?

God also sends plagues in the end times. One of these plagues is wormwood a "star" about 5 miles in diameter (the size of an asteroid that is prophesized to collide with the earth). As a result of the collision about 1/3 of all life on earth will die, and a drastic climatic change will be effected. This is starting to sound like the evolutionary explaination for the death of dinosaurs -- another subject for another day.

The reason I say "wormwood" is probably an asteroid about 5 miles in diameter: there is an asteroid belt in our solar system that poses this eventual threat, there is a group of people in the observatories that constantly monitor this potential threat. A collision with an asteroid this size could conceivably cause the drastic changes mentioned in the bible. In reality it could be a collision with some other heavenly body like a comet, or some other piece of space debris. It's just a matter of time before the earth catchs a big meteor.

If such a catastrophic event did occur, how will you know it is indeed the one that was prophecied in the book of Revelations? Guess?

Southstar,

You are a self-professed atheist. I read your post about those poor starving people in africa, haiti, of whom I have tried to help support.

You conclude that God, if he did exist, is a very cruel God.

Then I read the psalmist David who said:

Psalm 37:25
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

I'm glad God provides for me, but then again I ask God to provide for me.

The pictures are horrible, but they are pictures of what sin does to everyone -- we all die -- and it is hideous. Those young children, that die before they have a chance to live are in heaven with the father, and they will never suffer again.

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

I would rather be one of those starving children in the pictures, as bad as it looks, than to be an athiest, because at least there is hope for children after they die.

Woody: Southstar, You are a self-professed atheist. I read your post about those poor starving people in africa, haiti, of whom I have tried to help support.

You conclude that God, if he did exist, is a very cruel God.

The pictures are horrible, but they are pictures of what sin does to everyone -- we all die -- and it is hideous.
*************
M*W: Why is death so so hideous to you? I thought the bible said it was a time of joy and celebration.
*************
Woody: Those young children, that die before they have a chance to live are in heaven with the father, and they will never suffer again.
*************
M*W: But this is only a pipe dream. There is absolutely no evidence for it. No one has come back to tell us what its like in heaven or hell.

Southstar said,

No contradiciton here at all. Hell is not a gift, it is a place that somebody works for -- some harder than others. ”

And you arrived at this assumption how?

Rom 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

A person deserves wages for the work they do.

Some earn more wages than others:

Hebrews 10:29

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

John 12:

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This is how I know according to the bible.

Southstar said about wormwood:

If such a catastrophic event did occur, how will you know it is indeed the one that was prophecied in the book of Revelations? Guess?

There will be no mistaking about the great tribulation period:

Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The wormwood "star" is just one episode of many during the great tribulation.

People will wish they were dead but death takes a holiday:


Rev 9:6

And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

And God is super-ticked off:

Rev 6:16

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

There will be no mistaking the great tribulation.

bibles = backup toilet paper

Thread Jack!!

But it does pertain to the title of this thread.

Christianity as the message of love; seems christians have been busy with tsunami rescues, however if villagers want aid, they first must convert; :rolleyes:
Christian love (http://in.news.yahoo.com/050116/139/2j1rp.html)

Ain't that so Christian of them!!. :bugeye:

Godless.

Welcome to the forum Suzukifrog.

I see you brought your own toilet paper, and you'll need it here.

Southstar,

You are a self-professed atheist.

No.


You conclude that God, if he did exist, is a very cruel God.

No.


The pictures are horrible, but they are pictures of what sin does to everyone -- we all die -- and it is hideous. Those young children, that die before they have a chance to live are in heaven with the father, and they will never suffer again.

And you know this how?

I saw a story on the Discovery channel last year that spoke of Darwin's conversion and of Albert Einstein theorizing that there must be a Creator.

I apologize for not providing a written reference.

There is mention in the Bible that God's children are born with a "knowing" in their heart - I interpret this as being a feeling deep inside oneself that "knows" there is a God. I will not criticize or belittle you for feeling the way you do. But I do have a couple of questions:

If we came from apes and fish, why are apes and fish still in existence?

If everything was accidental or random, then where did conscience and emotion (love) and intelligence come from?

What about death bed visions and near death experiences?

What is the purpose for our existence?

A Christian can answer these questions using God's Word. What source do atheist's use to find possible answers for these questions?

God Bless You All. :)

If we came from apes and fish, why are apes and fish still in existence?


If we came from our parents, why are they still in existence?

I mean why are they not continuing to evolve?

Because the environment they specifically find themselves in creates no selection pressures on them, and/or there ancestors did not have the mutations that led, progressively to a new species/genera/ family etc.

I saw a story on the Discovery channel last year that spoke of Darwin's conversion and of Albert Einstein theorizing that there must be a Creator.
I apologize for not providing a written reference.and you still have'nt, please provide reference material, if you make a claim " I watched a tv program does not surfice.

There is mention in the Bible that God's children are born with a "knowing" in their heart - I interpret this as being a feeling deep inside oneself that "knows" there is a God. I will not criticize or belittle you for feeling the way you do. But I do have a couple of questions:again(reference material)the scriptures would help with that claim.

If we came from apes and fish, why are apes and fish still in existence?we all came from the same soup, we are still evolving, it's just far to slow for you to see, you have a family tree, I presume.
then you must have people in your family that you've never met, who are you far distent cousins, on another branch of you family tree, all going back to that one source, your great( ad infinitum)granddad. well evolution works exactly the same way.
apes are your cousins far far removed, we all started from one source, as I said we are all evolving all the time just to slow to see, the oldest fish that has'nt evolved in millions of years is the coelacanth, and thats possibly because it does not need to evolve, it functions perfectly well as it is.

If everything was accidental or random, then where did conscience and emotion (love) and intelligence come from? animals show all those things, in some way. it all stems from adapting to our surroundings and working with our fellow animals.(evolution)

What about death bed visions and near death experiences? pure BS, theres no substantial evidence that can hold water, it just halucinations.

What is the purpose for our existence? to continue, to survive, to propagate the species, to be the best you could ever be.

A Christian can answer these questions using God's Word. What source do atheist's use to find possible answers for these questions?humanitys words, historical facts.

Southstar,


“ Originally Posted by Woody

Southstar,

You are a self-professed atheist. ”

No.

“
You conclude that God, if he did exist, is a very cruel God. ”

No.


What do you believe then? Do you have a post somewhere that summarizes what you believe?


The pictures are horrible, but they are pictures of what sin does to everyone -- we all die -- and it is hideous. Those young children, that die before they have a chance to live are in heaven with the father, and they will never suffer again."

And you know this how?


Because of the Bible verse I gave you already. Jesus loves children.


Might I summarize my view here? People want sin but they don't want the consequences. Remember the sciforums post you contributed with horrid pictures of deformed, starving, diseased children. This is the consequence of a disease that all of us have -- I'm included. Sin is the disease. People want to blame God for it, but God did not bring sin into the world, man chose it. Man still chooses it. For someone to be a murderer, someone else must be a victim, for someone to be a thieve someone else must suffer the loss, for someone to be a rapist some one else must be violated -- these are direct results. But there are also indirect results too. As the bible says the same rain falls on the righteous as on the wicked.

Disease does not discriminate between young and old, rich and poor, innocent and guilty. I put the death of my father right in there with those terrible pictures. Death is an ugly sight. As I said before, and this is a bitter pill for me to swallow, I would rather die a small child with those awful diseases or even an unborn fetus, than to go through this life as an athiest with everything this world has to offer.

God holds those accountable to whom he gives much.

I suggest you read Luke Chapter 16 about the rich man and Lazurus to get this in perspective.

http://209.197.66.175/kjvimages/luke16-20.jpg

The picture doesn't do this one justice, actually the dogs fed off of Lazurus's sores. They were not friendly pups as the picture would indicate. The book of Job is another good reference.

People want sin but they don't want the consequences.
only religious people sin. so the consequences are all theres.
can you also show us how man choose this so called sin, and how it had nothing to do with you god. and please dont say free will, because you religious lot dont have any,

only religious people sin. so the consequences are all theres.
can you also show us how man choose this so called sin, and how it had nothing to do with you god. and please dont say free will, because you religious lot dont have any,


Audible,

I have already shown you plenty of biblical information about the basic selfish sin nature. Perhaps a definition of sin is needed. What do you define sin to be?

no need for difinitions however

dictionary.com
Sin
1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
3. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
4, To violate a religious or moral law.

and wikipedia

Sin has always been a term most usually used in a religious context, and today describes any lack of conformity to the will of God; especially, any willful disregard for the norms revealed by God is a sin. The word is from the old English synn, presumed to be from Germanic *sun(d)jō[1] (http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE133.html) (lit: "it is true"). It is recorded in use as early as the 9th century. The most common formal definition is an offense against religious or moral law.

so as i said earlier only religous people sin, so the consequences are all theres.

still would like to know how man choose sin.
no you have'nt shown any information to show how man choose sin.
if your refering to a&e then your wrong no choice there, they were forced into it.
if I was your god and said you must goto new york and you could take any route you like, then I closed every route bar one, even going back, where is the choice.
remember before a&e ate of the fruit the were like babies, and your god was there father, they had no idea of right and wrong, did they.
so no choice in what they said or did.

Audible,

The reason I asked you for a definition of sin is because definitions clears up miscommunications before they get started.

You pointed to the Adam and Eve episode in the bible, which I can explain, and I think it is a good place to start.

remember before a&e ate of the fruit the were like babies, and your god was there father, they had no idea of right and wrong, did they.
so no choice in what they said or did.

Adam and Eve were full grown adults, if that's what you mean (and I think you do mean that). They did not know the difference between good and evil, as you stated. They were given one commandment, "Do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." They could do anything else they wanted, including, they could also eat from the tree of eternal life. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil had a consequence called death. Death didn't exist, so maybe they had trouble understanding what death was, but the warning was there never-the-less.

Eve was tricked into disobeying, but there was willfulness on her part. She thought she could be like God if she ate from the tree. Her motivation was pride. Adam fell for it too, because once Eve was hooked, she brought him the fruit and he ate it. He knew full-well that he was doing wrong, but he was weak for Eve, as most men are in times of temptation. The fruit was not sexual, it was just a plain fruit. The bible doesn't say whether it was an apple, a fig, or whatever, and this is probably because man would make some religion to forbid a perfectly good food from being consumed.

In the sad end of it all, man could have reigned on this earth with immortality, but he chose death over life, and he did it because he thought God wasn't sufficient. People are still doing it today -- what do you think will make your life better, more money? More money will not extend your life another day. :eek:

whatever god said they did not understand what he meant, they were babies( adults but babies none the less) Eve was tricked into disobeying, if she was tricked then she could not be held responsible for her action, she was coerced. but there was willfulness on her part. She thought she could be like God, if she ate from the tree. Her motivation was pride. Adam fell for it toonot possible as they had not ate of the fruit,because once Eve was hooked, she brought him the fruit and he ate it. He knew full-well that he was doing wrong, no he did'nt, she had been coerced, and he was in turn was coerced by her but, neither had a choice or even understood what they were doing was wrong, and they certainly should not be held responsible for it as they were coerced.


In the sad end of it all, man could have reigned on this earth with immortality, but he chose death over life,no they did'nt, they were forced into it, and found guilty for a crime that they quite clearly did not knowingly commit. ( a bit like sending a baby to the gallows, for a crime an adult did.)

I dont care about money, money is but a means to an end, that all it is.
humanity comes first in my book.

so can you still show me how man choose sin.

Darlas how the hell can you defend your beliefs when you dont even know the basis for the theory of evolution. So please dont even talk. All you christians who claim to be so sure that god created everthing You are so full of yourself. How can you discredit these theories that were composed by highly educated people. I'm sorry, how many of you here have a degree in physics or biology. SO please dont even attempt to disprove anything unless you have a great understanding of what your dissproving.

Audible,

Actually Adam was quite a smart man. With just one look at Eve, he knew what she was for. God did not have to tell him the birds and bees like the rest of us require. Adam also figured out marriage on his own though he'd never seen it, and that Eve would bear children though neither one of them had ever seen children. Pretty smart for a so called child mentality, eh? Also, Adam named all the animals in the world. His vocabulary must have been well developed. God created both Adam and Eve as a perfect man and woman -- they did not have the minds of children. The argument that A&E didn't know any better sounds like the Unification (Moonie) church's doctrine. They want to blame God for sin -- another discussion for another day.

Let's tackle the sin incidence in the Garden of Eden verse by verse, How do you read coercion into this? Eve was conned yes; coerced, no I don't think so.

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This is the Genesis account. Eve knew that eating from the tree would result in death. But notice something subtil here, Eve overstepped the bounds of God's limitations by adding to them in verse 3. She said that God said she could not touch the fruit. This is where the problem begins, because God did not say this, and she has already lied. Lieing was not forbidden in the Edenic world as far as I know. There really was no need to lie, since everyone had what they wanted. But this is where the problem starts though it has not become sin yet.

Then the serpent speaks to Eve and notice how he baits her: First he adds to the lie that Eve has already started by saying "Ye shall not surely die."

Then in verse 5 he tells her God doesn't know what's good for her . If you do this you are really going to be something -- you will be as big as God!

Eve looks at herself and says, I want to be God! (vs. 6) She is not satisfied with the paradise she has been given, but she wants more. God is not sufficient for her. She wants to be like God. She has not sinned yet.

She looks at the fruit, sees it is good for food (still not sin). It looks good, like all sin does. The wisdom looks appealing (still not sin). Then she takes it, (still not sin), but nothing changed so God must not mean what he said, right? she touched the fruit and something bad was supposed to happen, right? She said that God said she could not touch the fruit, right? Well the the rest of what God really did say must have been wrong too, right? NO -- WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG is the answer to all these questions. But Eve still has not crossed the line though she thinks she has.

-- and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat - SIN enterred the world. Notice that Adam did not stop Eve though he was right there with her.

If she wanted to be wise, why didn't she just go to God and ask him to give her wisdom? It worked for Solomon.

Actually Adam was quite a smart man. [/quote]please dont insult my intelligence, he was but a baby, a smart baby maybe, but a baby innocent.With just one look at Eve, he knew what she was for. God did not have to tell him the birds and bees like the rest of us require. we humans dont need to konw the bs&bs we are animals, nobody teaches a fox what a vixen is, nobody teaches a lion what a lioness is , dont be stupid, it's not called intelligence, but instinct. ( basic animal instinct to propergate the species) so the next part of you statement has been thrown out... trash canned next section (Adam also figured out marriage on his own though he'd never seen it, and that Eve would bear children though neither one of them had ever seen children. Pretty smart for a so called child mentality, eh?) Also, Adam named all the animals in the world. so!, I name my pets. His vocabulary must have been well developed. why!, why would he need a voice, god could read is mind, animals comunicate without words. God created both Adam and Eve as a perfect man and woman -- they did not have the minds of children. and who did this god compare them with to make them the perfect man(in his own image, which is a young man) and woman (so where did the womans image come form)as for there minds, if they new nothing of right and wrong before they ate of the tree, then they were equal to babies innocent, please try to think about it. Let's tackle the sin incidence in the Garden of Eden verse by verse, How do you read coercion into this? Eve was conned yes; coerced, no I don't think so.

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. coerce: To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation, compel.( compel: To exert a strong, irresistible force on; sway) this is why, they were coerced.

This is the Genesis account. Eve knew that eating from the tree would result in death. But notice something subtil here, Eve overstepped the bounds of God's limitations by adding to them in verse 3. She said that God said she could not touch the fruit. [FONT=Arial]where?, I see no such statement.( But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.)so the next part of you statement has been thrown out... trash canned next section (This is where the problem begins, because God did not say this, and she has already lied, Lieing was not forbidden in the Edenic world as far as I know. There really was no need to lie, since everyone had what they wanted. But this is where the problem starts though it has not become sin yet.

Then the serpent speaks to Eve and notice how he baits her: First he adds to the lie that Eve has already started by saying "Ye shall not surely die.

Then in verse 5 he tells her God doesn't know what's good for her . If you do this you are really going to be something -- you will be as big as God!

Eve looks at herself and says, I want to be God! (vs. 6) She is not satisfied with the paradise she has been given, but she wants more. [I]God is not sufficient for her. She wants to be like God. She has not sinned yet.

She looks at the fruit, sees it is good for food (still not sin). It looks good, like all sin does. The wisdom looks appealing (still not sin). Then she takes it, (still not sin), but nothing changed so God must not mean what he said, right? she touched the fruit and something bad was supposed to happen, right? She said that God said she could not touch the fruit, right? Well the the rest of what God really did say must have been wrong too, right? NO -- WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG is the answer to all these questions. But Eve still has not crossed the line though she thinks she has. )

-- and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat - SIN enterred the world. Notice that Adam did not stop Eve though he was right there with her. adam did not stop her as he had not eaten of the fruit, and thus did not have any idea what right or wrong was, and would not know she was doing wrong, and neither did she until she ate

God did not have to tell him the birds and bees like the rest of us require.

Woody, can you please provide contextual evidence of this?

Audible,

OK, you think that Adam and Eve were a couple of kids. We'll get to that.

But consider what God did say according to Genesis 2:

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There is nothing in here about "touching the fruit." Adam was supposed to dress and keep the garden, so he probably picked up old fruit and threw it out of the garden (hence he touched it). Observe that Adam d