Hi folks, I haven't been around in nigh on forever because, really at this point what's there worth talking about? With a week of distance from the Shootings at Verginia Tech, though there's a matter I'm very interested to talk about.

A terrorist. That's what. This guy reported shot over fifty people, thirty of whom are dead at the last report. Also, there are conflicting reports of a second gunman on the opposite side of campus.

This does not strike me as you average spree shooting.

I'm waiting to hear the race/religion of the shooter(s).


http://sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1358105&postcount=14


I was browsing through some threads on the forum when I stumbled upon this fairly characteristic post by madanthonywayne. The fact that he's a right-wing wacknut aside I've got to say that I heard many people voicing this very same suspicion on the day of the shooting, before the public was made aware of the identity of the shooter. I'll even admit that I briefly wondered myself if these killings were at all religiously motivated.

In the days that followed, and as America got a look at what it considered a fairly unlikely candidate for mass homicide many of the usual theories sprung up regarding what could have motivated Cho Seung-Hui.

Was it Violent video games? Had to be - the kid was Asian. Oops maybe not - turned out he didn't have any video games.

Was it the guns that made him do it? Oh no, seems he was a little crazy before obtaining the guns, and only purchased them a few weeks prior to the shooting, likely specifically to carry it out.

Well in that case was it. . . did he maybe flirt with evil Islam at that liberal southern College? Oh no, turns out he was a good Christian boy - the motive remains a mystery!

So many people secretly suspected that it must have been a Muslim, or that Islam had something to do with the shootings, but then the moment it's revealed that Cho was a die hard Christian, BAMN religion as a motivator in any part evaporated from people's minds as if that couldn't possibly have anything to do with it, yet right in his tapes Cho espouses Christian virtues again and again and compares himself to Jesus Christ.

My question to people who thought as madanthonywayne is this: Now that you know the religion of the killer - what do you make of it? Isn't radical Christianity just as dangerous as radical Islam? And why is it that Christian terrorists seem to get a pass when we think of religions that promote hatred and violence?

Guys like Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph seem to get a free pass when it comes to canalizing they're theological motivations and I have no idea why.

Doesn't seem to me that religion played any part in it - nor in any of the other mass-murders that I'm aware of. This kind of thing is totally unlike the sucide bombers that have been brainwashed by some cleric - who, by the way didn't have religious motives, either. Rather, they were making political statements and seeking only to tighten their control over their followers - while doing it in the NAME of religion.

Did they do the above for theological reasons? How much Christian terrorism is there in the world?

In speaking of the propensity to violence, Bill Maher said it best: "All religions are not equal".

The fact that he's a right-wing wacknut aside . . .
and there isn't any left wing whacknuts on this board? :confused:



yet right in his tapes Cho espouses Christian virtues again and again and compares himself to Jesus Christ.

My question to people who thought as madanthonywayne is this: Now that you know the religion of the killer - what do you make of it?
anyone that murders innocent people in the name of their god is a freak, no matter what their religion is.

wasn't it also pointed out that he had a history of mental problems?

this was TERRORISM, period.

Maybe you should read up on the Christian Identity Movement for a start.

Did they do the above for theological reasons? How much Christian terrorism is there in the world?


Quite a lot since the USA is trying to police the world with state terrorism.

Mystech,

Do you allways judge a whole group of people for the actions of a few? If that is the case then pick a side and justify everything they do.

Doesn't seem to me that religion played any part in it - nor in any of the other mass-murders that I'm aware of. This kind of thing is totally unlike the sucide bombers that have been brainwashed by some cleric - who, by the way didn't have religious motives, either. Rather, they were making political statements and seeking only to tighten their control over their followers - while doing it in the NAME of religion.

He did think the other students were spoiled and without using the word ´sinfull´there is a hint of that in his rantings.

Mystech,

Do you allways judge a whole group of people for the actions of a few? If that is the case then pick a side and justify everything they do.

You are basically agreeing with his point while missing it.

You are basically agreeing with his point while missing it.

Is that right?

My question to people who thought as madanthonywayne is this: Now that you know the religion of the killer - what do you make of it? Isn't radical Christianity just as dangerous as radical Islam? And why is it that Christian terrorists seem to get a pass when we think of religions that promote hatred and violence?

Guys like Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph seem to get a free pass when it comes to canalizing they're theological motivations and I have no idea why.

What pass Grant? They were hunted down and put away for life.

I think he misses his own point:

Who ever said Cho was a 'die hard Christian'? If he was then i would take another look at his post.

Quite a lot since the USA is trying to police the world with state terrorism.

You could call that state terrorism, but it's clear that it's not religious terrorism. Or has Haliburton been elevated to a religion?

Maybe you should read up on the Christian Identity Movement for a start.

I note them; disgusting as they are, their scale of violence is not anything like that of the alternative.

You could call that state terrorism, but it's clear that it's not religious terrorism. Or has Haliburton been elevated to a religion?

Well 78% of the USA are Christian, So how can you say that its not religion related?

I think its sickening that the US call themselves christians, I mean Jesse said " help the poor and the weak .

Well if they really are a Christian country, then why do they have so many homeless people on the strees of the US? Why do they have a rich and poor class in there country? why do they care more about Materialize more then anything!


Well answer my questions

Well 78% of the USA are Christian, So how can you say that its not religion related?

I think its sickening that the US call themselves christians, I mean Jesse said " help the poor and the weak .

Well if they really are a Christian country, then why do they have so many homeless people on the strees of the US? Why do they have a rich and poor class in there country? why do they care more about Materialize more then anything!


Well answer my questions

I'll be glad to answer a couple of them.

Homeless? Because most of them choose to be. My wife worked with an agency that attempted to help them. Practically every single one refused jobs and any other type of help - except for handouts only.

Rich and poor? Because many choose to work and many do not. As simple as that.

Well then that proves my point .

Well then that proves my point .

Which was what, exactly? :shrug: That so many of them are simply lazy? That has nothing to do with religion that I can see.

LOL, i was just saying that if the USA consider themselves Christians then why are they doing something that Jesse told them not to do.

Well 78% of the USA are Christian, So how can you say that its not religion related?

Thankyou for bringing up these points: I was actually waiting (not unlike Chuck Norris) for someone to do so.

It is true that 78% of the USA are Christians. In that respect, one might think it likely that this is a "Christian" crime.

Yet it is also true that 99.98% of Americans...eat bread. In fact, I think if you will examine history as closely as I have, you will find that nearly 100% of all crimes are conducted by known or suspected bread eaters. Not only this: 100% of all crimes in the US and in every country in the world are by those who drink...water. It's true! I think we may be on to something here.

I think its sickening that the US call themselves christians, I mean Jesse said " help the poor and the weak .

...and this has to do with the shootings...how?

Well if they really are a Christian country, then why do they have so many homeless people on the strees of the US? Why do they have a rich and poor class in there country? why do they care more about Materialize more then anything!

I think you mean "material wealth", and you will find if you open your eyes for a moment that this desire is found everywhere from the US to Pakistan, from Russia to the Sudan and beyond. Every nation in the world also has rich and poor classes.

Well answer my questions

I love these insistent demands within the same post. The author seems to be riled up about something. I'm interested to see how this plays out.

I think you mean "material wealth", and you will find if you open your eyes for a moment that this desire is found everywhere from the US to Pakistan, from Russia to the Sudan and beyond. Every nation in the world also has rich and poor classes.
.
Bit of a stretch to think of Pakistan as a Christian country.

Bit of a stretch to think of Pakistan as a Christian country.

Well no body is saying they are a Cristian country.

Eventhough thats a fact that most of the world has rich and poor classes in there country, I feel asthough the world goverments are corrupt because there society care more about material wealth.

People in the Poor community can't even afford heath care , so they die. Like a said " Jesse said help the poor and the weak".

Geoffp i do look at the history channle and they said that the reason why some empires fall is because of greed and power;for example, why did you think the french started the so called "revolution? because the french empire was corrupt because of the greed of the king and there families who treated the poor people like shit, all of the food was going to them rich king and his families.Because of this , all Hell broke .

Bit of a stretch to think of Pakistan as a Christian country.

That wasn't the point though.

Quite a lot since the USA is trying to police the world with state terrorism.
afghanistan and pakistan is responsible for the majority of the terrorism in the middle east.

afghanistan and pakistan is responsible for the majority of the terrorism in the middle east.
Actually Saudi Arabia is, they have funded more shit down there than anyone else. Curious, why did you leave them off the list?

This is true. The Saudis are not really our friends; either their Royal family or the extremists.

(CNN) -- An explosive device "which could have caused substantial harm" was found Wednesday in the parking lot of an Austin, Texas, women's clinic where abortions are performed, authorities said.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/26/clinic.bomb/

Hmm another case of Christian Terror.

Such a violent religion!

Then make a hash-mark on the imaginary counting board. Tally up how many each religion has earned, and for what. And do the math.

With regard to the specifics of the case: what are the liberties taken towards abortion in islamic law? In which cases is it permitted? At will? Or otherwise?

Then make a hash-mark on the imaginary counting board. Tally up how many each religion has earned, and for what. And do the math.
How far back can we go?

I'd say terrorism includes only the modern era, but as you will. :)

Then make a hash-mark on the imaginary counting board. Tally up how many each religion has earned, and for what. And do the math.

With regard to the specifics of the case: what are the liberties taken towards abortion in islamic law? In which cases is it permitted? At will? Or otherwise?

1) This is not about Islam or terrorism in Islam. You need to let that subject go Geoff. You are getting obsessed.

2) Counting how many one group does in comparison to another is not exactly the issue and never should be. Terrorism is terrorism. There no 'tally' points.

Well, there's an incidence rate. It's higher in one area than another. How is it "Obsession" (pardon the pun) to say so.

You could call that state terrorism, but it's clear that it's not religious terrorism.

Hi geoff,

Hummm, i am not sure about that.

Oh well, as the yankies say.

"in God we trust"

"God Bless America"

~~~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak

:whoops, i did not realise this thread had another page.

My question to people who thought as madanthonywayne is this: Now that you know the religion of the killer - what do you make of it? Isn't radical Christianity just as dangerous as radical Islam? And why is it that Christian terrorists seem to get a pass when we think of religions that promote hatred and violence?

Guys like Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph seem to get a free pass when it comes to canalizing they're theological motivations and I have no idea why.
As the poster boy for right-wing wacknuts, let me respond.

The initial reports mentioned two shootings at opposite sides of the campus, it sounded like an al Qada style attack (multiple sychronized attacks). Also, I noted that the initial reports didn't mention that the killer was a white male (which they always do when the killer is a white male). So I assumed we had synchronized attacks by gunmen who were not white males.

Now we all know that us white males occasionally go off on shooting sprees, but I knew this guy was not a white male. Who else would be likely to shoot up a campus? Especially shoot it up in multiple places at (I thought) the same time.

Well, there is this group of people who've sworn to destroy the US and who are responsible for multiple attacks against us. Maybe it could be them? Naaaaah. If I think that, I'm a right-wing wacknut.

And the reason no one associates Christianity with terrorist attacks is that, outside of abortion clinics, they never happen in the US.

Sure, Tim McVeigh was a Christian (I assume). But his motivation was not religious, but polical. He wanted revenge against what he saw as an overbearing government responsible for the killing at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Islamic terrorists, on the other hand, seek to establish a global caliphate. They kidnap people and force them to convert to Islam. They scream "allah akbar" before they commit their atrocities.

Can you see the difference?

I'd say terrorism includes only the modern era, but as you will. :)

Dear Geoff,

i hav ementioned this before, mauybe not to you but omn the boards..

All religions, countries have terrorirst and do terrorist acts, you have to look through time, rather than the snapshot of time we are in at the moment.

it would be interesting if someone did tally up the number of terrorist acts since the year 1000 for example, i really wonder whether Muslims would be on the top of that list.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Take it ez
zak

Hi geoff,

Hummm, i am not sure about that.

Oh well, as the yankies say.

"in God we trust"

"God Bless America"

Do they force religious minorities to convert to Christianity? Secularism? Judaism? Is it illegal to convert from any of the above in the United States? Are religious minorities there legally harassed by citizens of the religious minority? Do they have religious police?

But Mystech has not shown that Christians were involved in either case. I am not syaing they were or were not but this needs to be prove.

As it stands now he is nothing more than a gestsapo agent. er uh jk....well at least in charatceristic.

Dear Geoff,

i hav ementioned this before, mauybe not to you but omn the boards..

All religions, countries have terrorirst and do terrorist acts, you have to look through time, rather than the snapshot of time we are in at the moment.

Well, that's interesting, but I currently live "in the moment", and am correspondingly more concerned about political affairs of the present day. Call me a Luddite, if you will. One society has renounced the legal exploitation of religious minorities, and the punishment of apostates, atheists and agnostics. Another has not. Which is more deserving of criticism on a domestic level?

They scream "allah akbar" before they commit their atrocities.

Can you see the difference?

dear MadAnthony,

thank you for your analysis as the above post.

i do find the bit above as quite amusing though...

to be honest i hate the way "muslims" say "Allah Akbar", they actually say it for almost every cicumstance.

I have moaned at my wife several times, cos she keeps saying "Allah Akbhar" even for very trivial things" Like she dropped her purse when she got out the car and "allah Akbhar" came out of her mouth, i said to her "why are you saying God is great in this circumstance, are you not devaluing God, saying that for such a little thing"

"Allah Akbhar" - *Sorry i have Just hit the submit button twice!!!*

~~~~~~~~~~~~

take it ez
zak

Well, that's interesting, but I currently live "in the moment", and am correspondingly more concerned about political affairs of the present day. Call me a Luddite, if you will. One society has renounced the legal exploitation of religious minorities, and the punishment of apostates, atheists and agnostics. Another has not. Which is more deserving of criticism on a domestic level?

dear Geoff,

thank you for your response above.

time works in cycles my friend, therefore we have tO look at these situations through a much vaster time period.

~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

I disagree. I'm concerned about the immediate cycling and its effects on my progeny and near-to-middle generation descendants. "It'll all sort itself out" is a recipe for societal disaster.

"It'll all sort itself out" is a recipe for societal disaster.

Dear geoff,

I never actually said that...

~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak

Well, there is this group of people who've sworn to destroy the US and who are responsible for multiple attacks against us. Maybe it could be them? Naaaaah. If I think that, I'm a right-wing wacknut.



Islamic terrorists, on the other hand, seek to establish a global caliphate. They kidnap people and force them to convert to Islam. They scream "allah akbar" before they commit their atrocities.

Can you see the difference?

Did you hear them say directly, or is this what Fox News told you they said?

Terrorism is driven by political motives. Even your own adviser to the FBI Robert Pape has pointed out that the root cause is resistance to foreign occupation, and that religious background plays little in their mind. Islam, to them, is just something to rally around.

http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html
The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland


Of course you can keep on peddling BS, if it helps you justify stupid wars.

Christianity is the scurge of society, it must be brought to an end.

Christianity is not better then the other religions.

How do you propose, darksidZz, to "bring Christianity to an end?" What's your plan?

Dear geoff,

I never actually said that...

~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak

Well, that's what it sounds like.

Nick, if you want to call religion the rallying point for rabble, that's fine, but it's not true.

What islamic terrorists are doing today is in arguable accordance with a literal interpretation of their religious texts - the Quran, the hadiths and the traditions drawn from them. And the expression of their mandate fits right in with the legal history of sharia, and thereby with the fate of oppressed religious minorities within their nations. Now, I'm not a theist (although I find theology interesting, mostly because it's a question that can have no logical or satisfactory answer) and so I don't have any stake in the protection of one or another minority in far-flung Wheresthatistan, but I recognize the right to believe and worship as you like without recourse to state-mediated or -enabled harassment and violence. There is a desire for the instigation of a global Caliphate, and that includes all of dar-al-Harb, too. I don't think it means we should be occupying anyone; but at the same time Qutb (if you want to blame him alone, which is ludicrous really) really got his ideas from visiting the US per se, and in isolation from the idea of foreign occupation. (Yes, yes, I know, Sam: Suez Crisis. But that was long after his little treatise, so no dice. He'd long since made up his mind.)

Christianity is not better then the other religions.

Possibly not. But it's under control.

Geoffp Do you know why the mid-east hate the US, because we came in and took some of there holy land, ( when they told us not to) ,for oil intrest.
,
Its not fair that the US goes around and take something that does not belong. Yes christianity is more controlled then most of the other religions, but that doesn't change a thing about how they are effecting the world.

"It's under control" because it doesn't preach global theocracy.

Christianity is the scurge of society, it must be brought to an end.

The only people in the world that has the knowledge and power to take down all religion, and those people are atheism.

Atheist all over the world use sicence and logic, and thats something no body can fuck with.

Geoffp Do you know why the mid-east hate the US, because we came in and took some of there holy land, ( when they told us not to) ,for oil intrest.

Mmmmmmaybe. But how do you explain the constant and consistent limitations on religious minorities there? They weren't taking anything. The entire affair - sharia, dhimmitude and jihad - relates back to the literalist impressions of political islam. As for territorial concerns, should Europe and Western civilization then hate islamic civilization per se because of islamic invasion just following the Dark Ages? This would seem to follow from your proposal.

Its not fair that the US goes around and take something that does not belong. Yes christianity is more controlled then most of the other religions, but that doesn't change a thing about how they are effecting the world.

How are the Christians affecting the world? In what religious sense? There are, of course, international concerns by nations that call themselves Christian (but which are more Secular-Christian), but in what sense do they see it as a religious issue?

"It's under control" because it doesn't preach global theocracy.

Well, it does preach taking the message around. It doesn't say you need violence to do this, however; and yet violence has been used, which is inarguably opposed to its theology. I'm happier it's controlled than not.

And for fucks' sake, no one cite Luke 18, all right? Please. Seriously. It's an allegory.

How do you propose, darksidZz, to "bring Christianity to an end?" What's your plan?

We must develop a virus that will meld with the mental area of the brain associated with religion, specifically Christianity. Only after it eats that part of their brains can we truly be free of this curse abomination!

Of course you can keep on peddling BS, if it helps you justify stupid wars.

Thats the crux of the matter. If you keep blaming their religion, you don't have to change your behaviour.

Do you suppose that will boggle and befuddle Nick's mind Sam?

How are the Christians affecting the world? In what religious sense? There are, of course, international concerns by nations that call themselves Christian (but which are more Secular-Christian), but in what sense do they see it as a religious issue?


Ok I think I kinda overreacted alittle bit about that. In the USA , all kinds of Christian groups are poping up with different ideas that seems to be the opposite of the real christian believe in. you got some Christian who state that men should have the right to more then one wife and can rape there children. Other christian group support the KKK , and well you don't want to know what the other nuts out there think .

As christians spread there religion all over the world( like in China ), I can't help be feel that Christianity is changing for the worse.

We must develop a virus that will meld with the mental area of the brain associated with religion, specifically Christianity. Only after it eats that part of their brains can we truly be free of this curse abomination!

Thats not effective enough, plus that will cost some money. fight knowledge with ignorance, the Atheist are the only ones that can shut the religions nuts up.;)

Thats the crux of the matter. If you keep blaming their religion, you don't have to change your behaviour.

That's odd. I think that's what sharia is about.

That's odd. I think that's what sharia is about.

I agree

Christianity is a nonviolent religion, hands down. But I think that in Cho's case, he wasn't in the state of practicing Christianity while he was shooting people. My assumption is that Cho was simply overcome by rage (as in, a meltdown of his already unnatural brain) and didn't think about what he was doing. Most don't realize it but the things kids and even adults go through in college is just as bad as Middle or High School. I can see why he would do it. This is just another Columbine, on a larger scale. As long as society deems it fit to judge one another, fury will always be a problem for the ones not accepted by the larger, and maybe better, clique. Just my opinion.

to be honest i hate the way "muslims" say "Allah Akbar", they actually say it for almost every cicumstance.

I have moaned at my wife several times, cos she keeps saying "Allah Akbhar" even for very trivial things" Like she dropped her purse when she got out the car and "allah Akbhar" came out of her mouth, i said to her "why are you saying God is great in this circumstance, are you not devaluing God, saying that for such a little thing"

"Allah Akbhar" - *Sorry i have Just hit the submit button twice!!!*
What a versitile phrase! Good for suicide bombing, or dropping your purse!

Your post reminds me of an SNL skit in which this guy was constantly praying to Jesus. Praying that the food in the refrigerator would be cold, praying that his sandwich would taste good, etc. Finally, Jesus appeared to him to suggest he cut back a little. Sadly, having Jesus appear in the flesh only increased his desire to pray.

Madant was justified in wondering if it was terrorism. It certainly appeared to be terrorist-like, at least with the first reports.

The reason why 'is it Islam' was dropped was because, well, he wasn't Islamic.
Is he Christian?
Did anything he say or do make anyone think it was motivated by Christianity?
Was he part of the Christian Jihad Movement?

For a long time I've been concerned about something other than finding myself a female, it happens to be religion. Right now I would love to meet a girl, mate, then live with her continiously mating from time-to-time. That is my dream...

Religion however is evil, it's more than evil it's a curse. Religion helps define our lives for us, offering not freedom but ignorance. Together we each suffer by learning a multitude of lies mixed with fantasy. Christianity I'm afraid is evil, pure evil... there is nothing more evil (except in my ultimate evil thread) than this...

So how can we stop them? How can we keep Christians away? By making them our mindless toys!

How do you propose to try to do that?

I told you guys the answer to this question on how to bring down the religion.


We need atheist to do this, there the only one that can out smart these religious nut.