Okay. In Christianity, they believe that Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus, thereby sentencing Judas to hell for his deed.
HOWEVER, in christianity, God supposedly created Jesus specifically to die for humanity's sins, Big J knew it, Big G knew it. If Jesus' death for humanity was part of "God's Big Plan (TM)", wouldn't that mean that Judas did precisely as he was supposed to do, and had no control over it, as it was part of "gods big plan (tm)"?
Ergo, since what he did was a direct part of the "plan", he should not have been sentence to hell, and has, ergo, suffered MORE than Jesus did for humanity's sins.

Logical Paradox. Here is irrefutable evidence, from christian scripture, that christianity is logically unsound, and is therefore a paradox within itself.
To quote Ned Flanders:
"Yeah, even that stuff that contradicts that other stuff!"

Hapsburg,

Yes indeedy do. You are correctily doodly do. I can't wait to see the same old justifications and skirting of the subject that the theists always do. Let the dance begin. Just once I'd love to hear a christian say "Yea, you know... that really dosen't make any sense!"

Okely Dokely.

God supposedly created Jesus specifically to die for humanity's sins

It's things like that I just can't understand with religion. I don't think a god could micromanage the universe to pick and choose who gets born as the universe appears to have been created to run itself as things such as evolution shows.

I don't think I ever remember saying there isn't a divine creator of sorts, but IMHO religion has it wrong when they say he does such individual things for individual people.

This probably has nothing to do with the topic so I'll end the rant here :eek:

Well, KJC, the rest of us non-believers can't really understand it either.

Please point out to me where in the scriptures it states that Judas was condemned to Hell.

Well,

Didn't he repent and give his thirty silver bits to the priests at the temple? That should save him right? But then he goes and hangs himself. Mortal sin right?

It dosen't actually say he's going to hell that I know of.

Granted, there are plenty of apparent contradictions in the Bible and in various "Christian" Doctrines. This, however, isn't one of them.

Rats. Oh thou spoiler of fun.

Didn't he repent and give his thirty silver bits to the priests at the temple? That should save him right?
It should.

But then he goes and hangs himself. Mortal sin right?
Is it?
I have heard, though I am not certain myself, that the Bible does not specifically condemn suicide as a sin anywhere.
If not, the whole "suicides go to Hell" thing, is based on "Thou shall not kill", which, more accurately translated reads, "Thou shall not slaughter wantonly".
I'm not so sure that suicide qualifies as wanton slaughter.

It dosen't actually say he's going to hell that I know of.
Is the real point. The rest is just speculation.

OR,

"Thou shall not slaughter wantonly".

Is that really a more accurate translation? If so then it means killing is OK, just not wanton killing, right? A righteous lopping off of the head of a heathen now and again is OK. And ending your own life if you are suffering terribly, say, would be fine. Yes?

Is that really a more accurate translation? If so then it means killing is OK, just not wanton killing, right? A righteous lopping off of the head of a heathen now and again is OK. And ending your own life if you are suffering terribly, say, would be fine. Yes?
I believe that's true.
I suppose it's how the Vatican justifies acts of "righteous war".

It still amazes me the amount of interpretation and spin that is put on a book filled with mostly simple phrases. What amazes me even more is the amount of acceptance and absolute truth people accredit to this ancient line of translation and retranslation. Simply because they were raised under a particular version of it. Boggles my mind.

I hear you!!

What people generally refer to as "Christianty" today is a FAR cry from what I can glean from the words attributed to Jesus in the Bible!

Please point out to me where in the scriptures it states that Judas was condemned to Hell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot#Philosophical_questions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot#Philosophical_questions

That is an interesting page, thanks.
It doesn't however, say that the Bible states Judas went to Hell.
It simply says that this has been a long running piece of debate and discussion.

The Bible doesn't condemn Judas to Hell, some thoelogans and doctrine writers HAVE, however.

It doesn't however, say that the Bible states Judas went to Hell.
Um...
If Judas is sent to the Hell for his betrayal
It does state that.

Um...

It does state that.
No, it doesn't.
It says, as you pointed out, "If Judas is sent to the Hell for his betrayal..."
It is talking about the years of debate and conjecture over the subject.

If the Bible does state that Judas went to Hell, please provide me with Chapter and Verse.
If the Bible says that, it would be easy enough to find chapter and verse with a quick Google.

Okay. In Christianity, they believe that Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus, thereby sentencing Judas to hell for his deed.
HOWEVER, in christianity, God supposedly created Jesus specifically to die for humanity's sins, Big J knew it, Big G knew it. If Jesus' death for humanity was part of "God's Big Plan (TM)", wouldn't that mean that Judas did precisely as he was supposed to do, and had no control over it, as it was part of "gods big plan (tm)"?
Ergo, since what he did was a direct part of the "plan", he should not have been sentence to hell, and has, ergo, suffered MORE than Jesus did for humanity's sins.

Logical Paradox. Here is irrefutable evidence, from christian scripture, that christianity is logically unsound, and is therefore a paradox within itself.
To quote Ned Flanders:
"Yeah, even that stuff that contradicts that other stuff!"
Ohhh Nooo not calvanisim and pre-destination again. :rolleyes:

Looks guys God knew what judas was going to do from the "foundations of the world" from the time He created the world. All He had to do is Add the Messiah in the right place at the right time. Its like knowing a suicide bomber is going to walk into a certain cafe on a certain day at certain time. If you want to get blown up all you have to do is walk into that cafe 5 minutes before the bomber walks in and enjoy your last cup of coffee. :) Then bang goes the bomber he achieves his will to blow a cafe up and you achieve your objective to die.

Look God can use the cunning plans of men to for fill His own will. As the vogons say, "resistance is futile." :p

All Praise The Ancient Of Days


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar, what you just said doesn't contradict the point that christianity has made a logical error.

If God sends Judas to "hell, for betraying Jesus and God knew that Judas was going to betray
Judas? What is the logical paradox you are referring to that "that [C]hristianity is logically
unsound, and is therefore a paradox within itself."

“If Jesus' death for humanity was part of "God's Big Plan (TM)", wouldn't that mean that Judas
did precisely as he was supposed to do, and had no control over it, as it was part of "gods big
plan (tm)"?”

Why do you say that Judas had no control? How was He forced?


“Ergo, since what he did was a direct part of the "plan", he should not have been sentence to
hell, and has, ergo, suffered MORE than Jesus did for humanity's sins.”

Judas is suffering for His own sins. not mans. Jesus had no sin, so suffered because of the sins
of others.

Scripture talks about this some were , were it says in effect “ One person has been crerated for
this purpose and another person for something else” but no one is forced to do anything outside
of there own nature.

I think your argument makes the mistake of assuming that because something that will take place
- that it was then absolutely predetermined. With out any ascent from the parties involved.

Clearly Scripture teaches otherwise.

For it would not say in many places ”choose you this day...”

Man, read the wikipedia article on it. That's where I got it from.

Okay. In Christianity, they believe that Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus, thereby sentencing Judas to hell for his deed.
HOWEVER, in christianity, God supposedly created Jesus specifically to die for humanity's sins, Big J knew it, Big G knew it. If Jesus' death for humanity was part of "God's Big Plan (TM)", wouldn't that mean that Judas did precisely as he was supposed to do, and had no control over it, as it was part of "gods big plan (tm)"?
Ergo, since what he did was a direct part of the "plan", he should not have been sentence to hell, and has, ergo, suffered MORE than Jesus did for humanity's sins.

Logical Paradox. Here is irrefutable evidence, from christian scripture, that christianity is logically unsound, and is therefore a paradox within itself.
To quote Ned Flanders:
"Yeah, even that stuff that contradicts that other stuff!"It was no paradox since who was to betray Him was to betray Him using his own choice.

Also you lack knowledge since the Bible doesn't say that he went to hell (actually I think no one has gone to hell yet - that will happen after the judgement). If there was any questions regarding his free choice in the matter then we should be happy (and Judas too) to know that God is a rightous God and would not send him to hell on a lacking basis. Who goes where is up to God :)

You could beforehand know that one of your friends would betray you, and you could know it so well that you can even say to him "go do it then" - without implying too much. Did that mean that you made him do it? Wouldn't you have the right to make him responsible afterwards?

God doesn't make us do bad things, we do them ourselves, God tries to set us straight and that also gives us the option of disobeyence. Before the law there was no sin (you didn't know how to sin). But God wanted us to get out of the darkness.

Scripture talks about this some were , were it says in effect “ One person has been crerated for
this purpose and another person for something else” but no one is forced to do anything outside
of there own nature.

Where in the Bible might that be?

Cyperium, you are forgetting one thing:
your god doesn't really exist, so your whole statement kinda falls apart.

Cyperium, you are forgetting one thing:
your god doesn't really exist, so your whole statement kinda falls apart.I believe He exist. I base my statements on my belief. Thus it has not fallen apart.

But rest assured I am on my grounds.

Your basing your statement on a belief that is totally devoid of logic, ergo the logic of your statement is nonexistant, and therefore your statement is illogical and thereby FALSE.
You lose. Go home.

It was no paradox since who was to betray Him was to betray Him using his own choice
So if Judas had changed his mind at the last minute God would have been wrong then?
Or if Judas was "always" going to "inevitably " make that choice then it wasn't a choice, he was following a programme, and therefore so are we all and cannot be held accountable for our "sins". Oh, and if it was an inevitable choice then God has to take some blame for putting Jesus in the firing line at that time.
Its like knowing a suicide bomber is going to walk into a certain cafe on a certain day at certain time. If you want to get blown up all you have to do is walk into that cafe 5 minutes before the bomber walks in and enjoy your last cup of coffee. In that particular case it's suicide and murder - if you knew it was going to happen why didn't you get it stopped, you're responsible for you own death and those of any other victims.