Christ: He’s Back!

I’m certainly a Catholic, but I am glad that I have carefully been hedging my bets, as it seems that in these obvious End Times we are now experiencing the Coming Again of a Great Messiah, but not from where a good Catholic would at first expect, not from a Judeo/Christian Source. Apparently God learned His lesson there the last time. It appears that our Modern Messiah may come as the Matraiya Buddha. It may be that he is already here, and is now busy preparing himself for the role He will have to play.

He is a young man of Nepal, sixteen years old, and his name is variously spelled: Ram Bomjon, Ram Bamjan, Ram Bomjan. His ‘Buddhist’ name is Palden Dorje. The media has been calling him the “Buddha Boy”. So far he is famous for having had not eaten or drank for some six months while in silent meditation.

Of course, many people are skeptical when they hear of this, and the media only encourages such skepticism by reporting the story most marginally, partially and selectively – to please their modern skeptical and dismissive audiences. It is represented that Groups of Researchers are being consistently turned away. However, a more thoroughly researched account points to a great many verifications that the wider Media has been ignoring. Check this site: http://www.buddhadharma.com/Palden.html
We find that the young man was a trained ascetic from a very young age, and has the endorsements of his local Guru, a famous and high ranking regional Guru, and a Committee of Holy Men who all suppose him to be the Matraiya Buddha in the making. Now I hate to reveal this about the Religious Character, but it certainly is far from common for the Old Men of any Religion to acknowledge any ascendancy or superiority in any Young Men of their Religion. It is more common, even ordinary, for the Old Men of Religion to have great contempt for youth. So it MUST be a great and significant endorsement that so many Religious Old Men are willing to surrender their claims of self importance and to take their positions behind and underneath this lad.

Additionally, the Government of Nepal, in order to well regulate their own jurisdictions, sent a committee of nine specialists to study this New Matraiya, and they also came away with a solid endorsement.

In this context, when a group of Secular Atheist Skeptics arrived, introducing themselves with a slurry of rude questions and a front of obnoxiousness, well, the people, already reassured by their own Holy Men to the satisfaction of their Religion, and already reassured by their own Government Researchers, to satisfy their modern sense of rationality, well, people saw no need for this redundant group of slandering atheists and chased them away without a second thought. The Media pretends that this only group that was rejected was the only group that ever applied. One wonders why the Media would be so reluctant to express just why the local populations were so thoroughly convinced while focusing only on the smallest group which was dissatisfied only because its hostility put them at the greatest distance from the event. Perhaps the Media thought that they could save words by reporting ignorance, as informed knowledge would take so many more columns.

Here allow me to outline some of the details that the media choose rather to set aside. Besides the miraculous fasting (and any small town could soon uncover any fraud occurring there… as it would be no easy feat to sneak food miles into the jungle day after day without detection), there have been several Christ-like miracles. In two separate instances persons who were known to be dumb gained the ability to speak after having come into Our Young Lad’s presence. Then there has been the Wonder of the Lights – as the young Lad sits in meditation in the dark of night he glows in various colors – green at 10 o’clock, yellow by eleven, and the White Light at Midnight. Indeed, that Government Group that investigated, shot a video in which they recorded lights going in and coming out of the Our Young Buddha.

It was reported lately that Our Young Man went missing, but it was subsequently reported that he had only become concerned about the growing carnival atmosphere around the tree in which he was meditating. Several snake bites and then a mysterious fire at this one location were enough to convince Our Buddha in Becoming to pick up and find a better place to finish his Six Year Meditation. You see, on May 16th 2005 he had announced that he would need to complete a six year course of Meditation. So, as yet, he has only just less then one year completed of this six year program. And, again, incidentally, we are handed one more occurrence to reinforce the Big Picture View that the Essential End Time Episode will occur in 2012.

Now, as a personal observation, yes, I think this Young Man will be the Second Coming of Christ, the Modern Messiah, the Matraiya Buddha. But He is not there yet. He has just the blend of vanity and humility that makes for Spiritual Greatness. He would not cut his hair with the rest of his Monkish Fellows while on pilgrimage (having a head of gloriously thick hair), and now He is the only one of his district to suppose Himself to NOT be of the stuff of a Buddha, but claims nothing more than Lama status, being a ‘Rinpoche’, or a Bodhisattva -- all while the Old Experts are saying “Yeah, yeah, sure sure” but nonetheless expect the highest things from this Young Man. Indeed, about 7 months into His meditation, his brother heard him saying that to capture his attention he must be addressed with the Mantra “OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI”, which is the local patois for the Sanskrit AUM NAMO BUDDHA JNANI – it is a Mantra addressing the Enlightened Buddha. What can we infer? Well, the World now has its Caterpillar in the process of becoming the Butterfly. It took 40 days of fasting in the Wilderness to make a Messiah. It will take 6 years of fasting in the Jungle to give us a Matraiya. Now, we must consider that these things are never entirely preordained. We only need to review the disastrous end results of the Messiah’s short curtailed career to see that these things do not necessarily always work out for the best. So, for this new Young Matraiya, we should all probably pitch in at the level of the Collective Consciousness and wish, pray, and meditate for his support. Add our fasts and whatever penances we do for his benefit and progress. Perhaps this popular support at the root level will make all the difference later on when the elite classes of our Societies will deliberate on crucifying Him as well. Humanity must stand behind this Matraiya, this Messiah, this Time, or again we might lose out and then have to wait another two thousand years for our next slim opportunity.

Anyway, I would suggest we all take up a small ritualistic practice for the next six years, of several times a day repeating a few times “AUM NAMO BUDDHA JNANI” or “OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI”. And then to wish our Young Man luck and good fortune. He may be our last and best chance. Just envision the possibility that this Young Matraiya could forge the link that joins Humanity to Divinity – the link that joins the Collective Consciousness to the Divine Consciousness. He might be the One Spark that will start the Universal Fire. Like those Knowledgeable Holy Men of Nepal, lets all swallow our pride and get behind this young man.

you failed to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars that were collected by his handlers before his disappearance.

i have followed this story from the start of the coverage, and i have read nothing of "lights emanating from him". in fact, he was covered at night by a screen so that people couldnt see what he was doing during the late night hours.

i smell a charlatan.

He has alot of competition. WitnessJudeJury and Qorl as a couple of examples. May the best Christ win.

If This was really a messiah with all the might of god at his disposal why wouldn't they just let the skeptics come? They would certainly come away with thier tails between thier legs if it were true.
Does this mean that you will no longer support the killing of unmarried girls who become pregnant Leo?

lets all goto the land of nod and the twilight zone, oh sorry leo it's not dreams it's visions or is that hallucinations.

He has alot of competition. WitnessJudeJury and Qorl as a couple of examples. May the best Christ win.

i fully expect THAT shit to be PPV.

you failed to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars that were collected by his handlers before his disappearance.

i have followed this story from the start of the coverage, and i have read nothing of "lights emanating from him". in fact, he was covered at night by a screen so that people couldnt see what he was doing during the late night hours.

i smell a charlatan.

Actually, it is a rather poor community and only $7000 was collected.

But you should be informed to learn that he left it all quite far behind him. You see, he didn't go off to cash any checks. He was found, but only much deeper in the jungle where any amount of cash could only weigh him down.

Your problem is that you are cynical.

Also, it is something of a tradition in the East for private citizens to put up money in subscription for the building of shrines and temples. Yes, in Protestant America all such monies go into inflated salaries and car payments, but in the Himalayan Mountain communities, such funds really are dedicated to building a shrine here and a temple there. Go to India and simply take a look around. Those Temples and those Shrines, ubiquitous as they are, simply do not build themselves.

One can go on line and read the book concerning Sai Baba of Shirdi, a recognized Saint, and one can be properly bored to death with the occassional page which ennumerates the plans, subscriptions and the details of construction regarding temple improvements and shrines. No shame is attached to these enterprises.

If This was really a messiah with all the might of god at his disposal why wouldn't they just let the skeptics come? They would certainly come away with thier tails between thier legs if it were true.
Does this mean that you will no longer support the killing of unmarried girls who become pregnant Leo?

Well, you see, at a point enough is enough.

Once one's point is proven, what does redundancy serve?

For the good of the skeptics themselves? Well, you see, at a certain level of skeptical orthodoxy, there is no convincing. They will always suspect a trick or a conspiracy and suppose themselves only short in being able to detect it.

One needs only refer to the Study that the Sterling Hospital turned in regarding Pralad Jnani who had not eaten or drank a thing in 60 years. The Sterling Hospital conducted a 10 day study and observation and confirmed the viability of the claim -- that for 10 days Pralad Jnani neither ate nor drank, and yet showed not the least decline, or dip in body weight.

But what good did it do? The Skeptics were not convinced but only turned around and declared that ANY Scientist to turn in such a Report is NOT to be considered impartial. Skeptics are ready enough to throw out any PROOF as being invalidated on simple grounds of being prima facia impossible.

So, what can a reasonable person do with such a close-minded orthodox and doctrinaire Skeptic but to put a good boot up his ass and send him on his way.

Such 'claims' come regularly, like farts.
I guess that 'time will tell'.
'True believers' tend to dissipate, in time, just like said flatulence, when their 'trick pony' never does fly!

(Who was that little fat Indian 14 year old savior of the world a few years ago? Baba Ji or something? (Don't hear much from that crowd anymore either!) Last I heard, all young teens think that they are the saviors of the world. You gotta be a real ... (needy?) ..naive.. to believe them!)

(Who was that little fat Indian 14 year old savior of the world a few years ago? Baba Ji or something? (Don't hear much from that crowd anymore either!) Last I heard, all young teens think that they are the saviors of the world. You gotta be a real ... (needy?) ..naive.. to believe them!)

At the time of Transcendental Meditation's great revolutionary success in the West, and Maharishi got so rich and famous right away, a great many other 'Gurus' immediately decided to exercise about the same 'business model'. And as a 'business model' the scheme does sort of 'work'. It has grown almost ubiquitous throughout the New Age Community -- you make big promises and charge a lot of money and people simply intuitively suppose that they will get what they pay for.

But we only have to look at Bomjan Ram Palden Dorje, our Young Man of Nepal, and see that he has no business plan. He is charging nothing. Indeed, he has been doing his best to dodge the crowdes, being foiled there only by the overriding need to sit still long enough to get a year of meditation in now and again. No promises. But we do hear of some spectacular claims for him that can't be readily dismissed. Afterall, this is a small town he is from and people would not enjoy being fooled by a neighbor. The claim is that the Young Man has not eaten or drank for a year. In a small town, how could a violation of that claim ever be kept secret, particularly with the young man being so far back into the Jungle, by more than a few miles, and by only a few passable paths. Smuggling food would have been a most arduous conspiracy. If they were fakes, they would have found something easier to claim.

Oh, and all of those Gurus who reached the height of their popularity back in the 70's and then peaked, and then declined. They are still out there. Now they are fat middle aged men, but they retain enough of their dues paying 'devotees' so that they don't have to find actual jobs. But, honestly, one would think that if they could not do anything else, they could watch their personal appearance -- the figure they cut -- their grooming, hygiene and diet. After all, their public has already forgiven them for not being able to perform any of the Real Proofs of Divinity, that is, Miracles... so the least that they could do in return is to at least LOOK the part. Instead we have fatso pastey looking degenerates calling themselves 'gurus'. You know, if Fashion Models and Hollywood Actors can exercise the self-control to look well, then why should not some Guru be able to summon the same degree of self-discipline. They've been spoiled by their public who obviously no longer expect anything from them.

This reminds me of that leader of the outlawed Chinese Group -- Falun Gong. The Guru, there, claimed to be over 80 years old, but that his Discipline returned him to a youthful appearance. Well, ten years ago, that 40 year old man was able to get away with such a story. But what did he do? he got old and fat -- the typical 40 to 50 decline. But with the least care of diet and exercise he might have saved appearances. But these spoiled fakes are too lazy even to act out their parts faithfully.

If all a 'Guru' can do for people is to put on a Guru Show, then it should at least be a convincing one. And the Audiances for such spectacles should be more demanding. One should at least require that one's Gurus be more ascetically and spiritually accomplished than one's self. And this is where that Young Man from Nepal has succeeded. I myself can fast well enough for 3 or 4 days at a time, five or six times a month, and in physical appearance, though in advanced age, I still appear toned, athletic and with no extra body fat protruding. But I admire that Young Man of Nepal for being able to top me on those scores. And that is before mentioning his abilities to glow in the dark or to make miraculous cures.

again, i repeat: he was covered at night, by all reputable accounts. there is NO evidence of him glowing.

sai baba ALSO shows the signs of aging setting on. havent you seen him in the last few years? he is fat. he has wrinkles..he is a fraud.

you show no reference to this boy leaving all the money behind. yes, there were HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars left with his handlers, as i read in a usatoday article.

the claims about this boy are dubious, at best. it is entirely possible that they are true, but until i see something other than sensationalizing of him, i wont believe a word of it.

We all believe in our own ways, now, don't we...?!

its a matter of the original post being inaccurate, thats all.

Apparently God learned His lesson there the last time.

WTF,,, I thought God was ALL KNOWING??? :confused:

... so the least that they could do in return is to at least LOOK the part. Instead we have fatso pastey looking degenerates calling themselves 'gurus'. You know, if Fashion Models and Hollywood Actors can exercise the self-control to look well, then why should not some Guru be able to summon the same degree of self-discipline. .
Holy Shit! Can one get any more shallow and ignorant than this??!!

Afterall, this is a small town he is from and people would not enjoy being fooled by a neighbor.
Non sequitor.
Unless he were that town's claim to fame!
'Collaborations' between the 'small village' and the 'miracle boys' have not been rare...

He has alot of competition. WitnessJudeJury and Qorl as a couple of examples. May the best Christ win.ROTFLMAO :D

you show no reference to this boy leaving all the money behind. yes, there were HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars left with his handlers, as i read in a usatoday article.



He went into the jungle. he doesn't eat. What would he spend the money on?

You see, you are cynical. You have NO IDEA that some people might actually have Spiritual Ambitions.

And yes, you're right -- Sathya Sai Baba is a big gross disgusting bag of pus.

Back in 1988 I took Sathya Sai Baba's old driver out and got the guy drunk, and WOW you should have heard what I heard.

Holy Shit! Can one get any more shallow and ignorant than this??!!




Perfection is all in the Details.

Why should we value any particular Guru if they can't even exert enough willpower over themselves to keep from over-eating. If they can't keep from indulging one appetite, then how many other appetites are they allowing to run rampant?

Attention to detail is not shallow. It is rather a concern for thoroughness.

WTF,,, I thought God was ALL KNOWING??? :confused:

Well, that is the View of Greek Philosophy. But the odd thing about Greek Philosophy is that it supplies us both with Theological Nonsense and then the Atheism that objects to the same Theological Nonsense. It is as though the First Generation of Greek Philosophers made up a Model for Religion that the Second Generation of Greek Philosophers could deride and ridicule. Indeed, these Philosophical musings don't qualify as religion at all, but are simply empty speculations.

True Religion comes from Saints and Mystics, not from seculative philosophy.

Besides... while some unapproachable and transcendent Divinity may well be All Knowing, what on earth would that have to do with the people on this World?

Perfection is all in the Details.
You must be 'perfect' to be able to recognize and describe it, eh? Otherwise, it would simply be idle speculation that you assert as 'Truth'!?

Why should we value any particular Guru if they can't even exert enough willpower over themselves to keep from over-eating. If they can't keep from indulging one appetite, then how many other appetites are they allowing to run rampant?
If, by 'Guru', you are simply referring to a 'spiritual teacher', your criticism might, 'might', be justified, if that 'guru' is spouting about 'will power'. Yet, as far as I can see, you would still have to know everything that he does before criticizing him. Otherwise, you criticize from ego and arrogance and ignorance. The 'girth' of the piano teacher is irrelevent. If you 'hang-up' on his irrelevencies, you will not learn piano.
If, by 'guru' you are referring to an 'Enlightened Master', by what standard, again, do you criticise? Are YOU an 'enlightened master' thereby knowing all the signs and symptoms of said master? Have you read it in some book? Idle speculation? Experience?
Perhaps the genetic 'girth' of the 'guru' is a cosmic Truth meant to weed out the obsessively shallow, the vain, the anal retentive, the ignorant, the judgemental; in essence, to weed out the 'riff-raff' that would otherwise waste his time and is totally unprepared to 'evolve' on that level?!?

Attention to detail is not shallow. It is rather a concern for thoroughness.
If your guru teaches you that attention to detail is necessary, and gives you the particular 'detail' of which to pay attention, than feel free to 'learn' it. If you are applying your own ignorant (speculative) standards (learned, possibly, from your mundane life) to something beyond your experience (an enlightened master), this is where you will remain.
If you hate 'fat' than the perfect master who could guide you to Truth will be fat! Or ugly, or retarded, or whatever you 'hate most' that you must GROW past (or through) to be in the proper 'receptive' condition for 'spiritual progress'. If you cannot 'see' through such trivialities, the 'deeper truths' will remain hidden from you.
The only thing that requires the 'attention' (constant) and 'thououghness' of which you speak is the harnessing of your rampant ego.

Good grief, man, just think of the kind of person who would actually say something like this;
"Sathya Sai Baba is a big gross disgusting bag of pus." No one but another shallow, hateful, judgemental person would have anything to do with him.

One needs only refer to the Study that the Sterling Hospital turned in regarding Pralad Jnani who had not eaten or drank a thing in 60 years. The Sterling Hospital conducted a 10 day study and observation and confirmed the viability of the claim -- that for 10 days Pralad Jnani neither ate nor drank, and yet showed not the least decline, or dip in body weight.

Bullocks! He did dip in body weight, and he has a hole in his palate in which water filters through, thus sustaining him.

Attention to detail is not shallow. It is rather a concern for thoroughness.

Uh... yeah.

Hi Leo,
Thanks for the post. There's no need to convince those that don't belive, better to remained silence....OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI..OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI..OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI

interesting that nothing new on the boy has surfaced.

"Then should anyone say to you
‘Look, here is the Christ! Look, He is there!'
Do not believe it.
For false Christ's and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible even the elect.
Take heed, see I have told you all things beforehand.
Therefore if they say to you
‘Look, he is in the desert!'
Do not go out. Or
‘Look, he is in the inter rooms!'
Do not believe it.
For as the lighting comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" - Jesus

VitalOne,
Thank you for your input... ;)

Besides the miraculous fasting (and any small town could soon uncover any fraud occurring there… as it would be no easy feat to sneak food miles into the jungle day after day without detection)Yeah, come on guys. We all know there isn't anything to eat in the jungle. You'd have to air-lift in food.

:rolleyes:

~Raithere

Leo your a riot, thanks for the wonderful jokes, you further make yourself look like an ass in our presence, keep coming with this crap, and we will send you some free prozac. ;)

Yeah, come on guys. We all know there isn't anything to eat in the jungle. You'd have to air-lift in food.

:rolleyes:

~Raithere

There have been videos that have come out of Nepal showing the mileau of the area in which this young man has gone without eating or drinking. It is crawling with people -- hundreds of tourists milling about. and they go there for one reason -- to see that the Boy DOESN'T move an inch, because he is supposed to be Meditating, and to especially see that he isn't eating or drinking.

And you are insinuating the that he has been climbing the trees shaking down coconuts.

Yeah, that makes sense.

"Then should anyone say to you
‘Look, here is the Christ! Look, He is there!'
Do not believe it.
For false Christ's and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible even the elect.
Take heed, see I have told you all things beforehand.
Therefore if they say to you
‘Look, he is in the desert!'
Do not go out. Or
‘Look, he is in the inter rooms!'
Do not believe it.
For as the lighting comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" - Jesus


There is a very interesting analysis one can do here.

Have you heard of the Unforgivable Sin? In Mathew Chapter 12 Jesus becomes annoyed when a Pharisee, probably Young Paul, accuses Jesus of using Demons to cast out Demons -- that Jesus is only doing "Good" in order to gain people's trust in order to fool them. Well, the idea that Goodness should be a matter for Accusation is so offensive to Christ, that he calls it the Unforgivable Sin against the Holy Spirit.

Now, look at your Passage from Paul.

Is it not EXACTLY this same Unforgivable Sin. Heck! It is even the same Pharisee. The Same Argument.

"Never believe Goodness. They only want to Fool You."

Why would the Paulists use such an argument? Well, his Congregations were hearing that the Followers of the True Apostles were seeing and receiving all kinds of Supernatural Miracles, Signs and Wonders... all of that Holy Spirit Stuff. But Paul's followers were getting nothing, and asking WHY. So Paul reacted with to two-fold Strategy. First, he redefined the Holy Spirit so that it would no longer mean anything... or nothing Supernatural. Just look at the Holy Spirit from the Book of Acts -- Miracles out the Butt. Then Look at Paul's redefinition of the Holy Spirit -- 'patience, forbearance, looking both ways when crossing the street' ... all just anything that anybody has, christian or not. Then Paul asserted the argument that Miracles were from the Devil and that Righteousness was always to be treated with suspicion -- "The Devil wants to fool you". Paul was defending his Congregations from the Real and True Apostles. It was a Territory Dispute, and Paul saw the Real Apostles as intruders.

The same Problem would follow the Paulist Congregations even after the Death of Paul. The Congregations would still have to be convinced that not experiencing Miracles was a good thing, and that the remaining Messianic Congregations, that were receiving Miracles, that they were actually evil. So when the Gospels were written, Jesus was made to quote paul -- Paulist Doctrines were superimposed upon the Ministry of Christ.

That is very ironical. Why? Well in all of Paul's 14 books, he never once EVER quotes Jesus. But when the Paulists decided to write the History of Jesus, they make Jesus quote paul. Quite backwards, don't you think.

but the Book of Mathew was the most Jewish and least Paulist of the Gospels, and there we got it right -- that Jesus said that your Passage which accuses all goodness and light of actually being some hidden evil -- that such Accusations against Goodness, that THAT is the Unforgiveable Sin.

So you should be ashamed of yourself... mostly for being stupid. If you have ever read you Bible with the least bit of attention, you would have noticed this discrepancy on your own.

as it seems that in these obvious End Times we are now experiencing

Purely out of interest, but how are we experiencing "obvious" end times? That's how your argument started and you haven't even done the courtesy of supporting that claim.

How convenient that they turn away the very people that could have proved or disproved the miraculous nature of the events you describe.

Did it occur to you that God tends to order the killing those following rival religions? Anyway, Buddhists are atheists, and Buddha taught a healthy skepticism.

There have been videos that have come out of Nepal showing the mileau of the area in which this young man has gone without eating or drinking. It is crawling with people -- hundreds of tourists milling about. and they go there for one reason -- to see that the Boy DOESN'T move an inch, because he is supposed to be Meditating, and to especially see that he isn't eating or drinking.

And you are insinuating the that he has been climbing the trees shaking down coconuts.

Yeah, that makes sense. You're right; no one in the entire history of mankind has been able to fool a crowd of people into believing something incredible was happening when it really wasn't. :sarcasm off:

~Raithere

Anyway, Buddhists are atheists,

Buddhists are Theistically neutral.

Some believe in a God and many share their bed with a Christian.

Some believe in a God and many share their bed with a Christian.

AS do many atheists ;)

Purely out of interest, but how are we experiencing "obvious" end times? That's how your argument started and you haven't even done the courtesy of supporting that claim.

Well, Mr. Science, with all of the demonstrative indications for Global Warming, and with projections going toward replacing Food Crops with Energy Producing Produce, all while World Populations are still increasing.... do you see ANY POSSIBLE SURVIVAL Scenario?

Please, if you see a way where it can all somehow work out, then, really you NEED to write a book. People would be very interested.

As it is, everybody is quite hopeless about the World Situation. But since nobody can do anything, nobody talks about it. It makes no sense to stir up the commoners.

But I guess you just got stirred up.

Anyway, Buddhists are atheists, and Buddha taught a healthy skepticism.

Well, you are assuming that all Buddhists agree with Buddha. They don't. Only the smallest number of Buddhists agree with that fat nihilistic tub of lard, the Gautama. They call it Nihayana or "Small Wheel" Buddhism.

Gautama, the rich spoiled prince, was jealous of the power exercised in the Northern Kingdoms by the Brahmin Priesthoods and stirred up his Philosopy of Cynical Stoicism as a reaction. The Merchants in the town welcomed his Rebellion with open arms, and they funded the Belief System, more or less simply to give them an excuse to run the Priests out of their towns.

But the People are more than a few selfish Merchants, and they wanted their Religion back. With the Brahmins gone, they took what they had and made THAT their Religion. Mahayana Buddhism. It gave us back God, and also the Moral Sense of Compassion and Divine Providence. Mahayana Buddhism even gives us the Boddhisattva Ideal -- specifying a kind of Christ Savior or Cosmic Christ Consciousness.

but, yes, if you go to down to about 5 villages in Burma, you can still find about 20 people who still believe in Gautama's Atheism. You might notice what a Grand Civilization it was able to create for them.

Well, Mr. Science, with all of the demonstrative indications for Global Warming, and with projections going toward replacing Food Crops with Energy Producing Produce, all while World Populations are still increasing.... do you see ANY POSSIBLE SURVIVAL Scenario?


Wow, I think you need to stop watching TV. I get this feeling you watched Day After Tomorrow and have become all paranoid because of it. In the meantime spend some time at newscientist.com and you'll see it's not quite as "end times" as you clearly would like to believe.

As it is, everybody is quite hopeless about the World Situation.

I disagree. You should spend less time listening to jesus threats about world destruction and more time listening to scientists.

But I guess you just got stirred up.

O..k. Can't even ask a person to support their claims anymore without them getting all silly about it.

Wow, I think you need to stop watching TV. I get this feeling you watched Day After Tomorrow and have become all paranoid because of it. In the meantime spend some time at newscientist.com and you'll see it's not quite as "end times" as you clearly would like to believe.

The Wonderful Thing about Science that Politicians and the Corporations love is that Science can't seem to Prove a goddamn thing until it is far too late.

Look at the Tobacco Lawsuits. They are still going into court claiming that Science has not "proven" that tobacco is harmful.

It is now over 30 years since all those Troops in Vietnam were exposed to Agent Orange, and still the Government stands by the Science which shows there is no Proof that Agent Orange is harmful.

Now Science is doing the same with Desert Storm Syndrome -- where our Generals ordered the Iraqi Chemical Warehouses burned down and everybody downwind is now experiencing the longterm results of exposure to Chemical Nerve Gas, but good ol Science can't Prove that anybody has come to any harm because of it.

You see, they have so over-specified the criteria for Truth, that absolutely no Truth outside of double-blind completely controlled laboratory experiments could ever be said to constitute "proof".

You smoke a million cigerettes and eat one carrot and die. Science will say it might have been that deadly phuquing carrot.

So, really, Civilization needs to re-evaluate its hatred for Lawyers. Maybe it is the Scientists that should be our Number One Enemies.

We should ask them to prove to us why we shouldn't kill them all right now.

Also, there is the Argument from History. There has been 21 Civilizations. They have all Collapsed. We can draw parallels between all of the fallen Civilizations and our own Civilization. The Parallels indicate that our own Civilization is on the verge of collapse.

Yes, it is not logically inevitable. But the probabilities are extremely high. Particularly when you can see that NOBODY is doing anything to deflect the inevitable.

If everybody is making every effort to steer directly toward the Iceberg, well duh.

Well, what does it mean for Civilization to Collapse? Civilizations are the amalgum of Institutions that provide for and distribute the necessary supplies to communal groups. The outstanding point of these Institutions are their complexity and efficiency. In our Own Civilization a very complex Economy and Infrastructure is employed in providing food and energy to billions of people in the Metropolitian Areas, where the skyhigh realestate prices woudl assure that there would be virtually not the slightest hint of the smallest home garden.

History shows us that the Collapse of Any Civilization has resulted in sever Depopulation, and this has been in regards to largely Rural Civilizations, with people close to the fields already. Our Own Civilization would be devastated.

Picture this scenario -- a Big California Earthquake at the same time as another Aggressive Adventure by an American President, so the American Stockmarket drops like a rock. The OPEC Countries worry about the value of the Dollar and so they begin to accept EUROs and YEN for Petroleum Currency (now, the Dollar is secured in value because the American's insist that the U.S. Dollar can be the ONLY international instrument for the exchange of Oil). If ANY hard currency can be used to purchase Oil, the Dollar collapses. The American Economy would grind to a halt. The Trucks would stop running. Foreign Foodstufs ordinarily destined for America would go to Asian and European Markets, where the currencies are still worth something. Even American Businessmen would be economically driven to export remaining goods to foreign markets. Overnight there would be no food or oil left in America.

The Urban Centers would have only the food left on the shelves. These would disappear overnight because of hording. In 45 days 90% of the Urban Populations would be starved out.

Mormons would survive because they have been instructed to fill their cellars with a year or two's worth of food. But since everybody would soon know this, Mormon families would be attacked -- houses would be burned down just to get at the cellars.

There are plenty of disaster scenarios. In a complex Economy,anything could become the weak link in the chain. For instance, with the high prices for Oil... what will happen when suddenly the price of Wheat Alcohol for Car Fuel can get more than from baking bread. When Fuel Alcohol is worth more than Food, almost immediately billions of people will be marked out for starvation... well until the degree of accompanying economic collapse reduces the demand for Fuel, but by that time the damage might already be done. Starvation sparks riots. Now, one can interr people into Camps in order to prevent the Riots and to monitor the Starvation, but after the 20th Century experience with Concentration Camps, I think people will riot before getting on the Trains. Civilized Institutions are linked -- a Complex Economy is a House of Cards, and when things begin to topple, then everything will be likely to go all at once.

This is how easy a Civilization can collapse. Around 800 years ago the Rich Landholders in China had themselves made exempt from Taxes, because they provided jobs and so many Charitable services to their society...the same old Arguments about how wonderful and giving Rich People are. So, then some accountant put 2 and 2 together and started a program where Small Farmers would sell their land to the Rich Tax Exempt Large Landholders and lease it back at a rate undercutting what their Tax Rate would be. One couldn't argue with the Math, within a few years EVERY Inch of Land in China was in the Hands of the Large Landowners and it was all exempt from Taxes. Imperial China was bankrupt. No dredging of the channels, no police, no army, no relief supplies in famine. The first regional Famine sparked Internal Rebellion which demonstrated the Army's weakness which attracted foreign Barbarian Invasion. In less than 10 years it was all over. Rebellion, famine, civil war -- vast tracks of China were completely depopulated. Over a glitch in the Tax Math.

Anyway, Buddhists are atheists, and Buddha taught a healthy skepticism.

Actually buddhists state there are six categories of being;

1) demons, 2) ghosts, 3) Asuras, 4) Animal, 5) Human, 6) gods.


There is certainly no monotheistic god in buddhism nor is there any creator god, nor do the gods control our destiny in any way.

Yet, there are still gods in buddhist cosmology. Which does not make them, strictly speaking, atheist.


A healthy skepticism though - yes.

nor do the gods control our destiny in any way.




If they have existence and volition THAN they could EFFECT one's destiny, if they wanted to.

The Destinies of Men are not such weighty battleships that they are impossible of being pushed off course.

Indeed, when have the Demigods ever had any difficulty effecting the Destinies of whoever they would choose to target?

If they have existence and volition THAN they could EFFECT one's destiny, if they wanted to.

The Destinies of Men are not such weighty battleships that they are impossible of being pushed off course.

Indeed, when have the Demigods ever had any difficulty effecting the Destinies of whoever they would choose to target?


I would agree, but the difference is between 'control' and 'effect'. Of course any being whether god, man or animal can effect a destiny.

Where buddhists differ from western monotheism is the control part... where a god sits in judgemnt and decides our fate at the end of a life..

The Wonderful Thing about Science that Politicians and the Corporations love is that Science can't seem to Prove a goddamn thing until it is far too late.

Such as?

Look at the Tobacco Lawsuits. They are still going into court claiming that Science has not "proven" that tobacco is harmful.


And it need not be said that you'd have to be a complete and utter halfwitted moron to believe for one second that tobacco is not harmful. Of course those that make their billions selling tobacco are going to claim it isn't harmful and that science hasn't proven it, but if you honestly fall for that I pity you deeply.

You see, they have so over-specified the criteria for Truth, that absolutely no Truth outside of double-blind completely controlled laboratory experiments could ever be said to constitute "proof".

Nobody has "over specified" anything. There are certain ways to get to truth - whether you like it or not. Nobody can sit down and say it takes too much to get there. What are you arguing for? That truth should be easier to come by? Kinda like religious "truth" whereby we just make it up and that's ok?

You smoke a million cigerettes and eat one carrot and die. Science will say it might have been that deadly phuquing carrot.

Utter horseshit.

So, really, Civilization needs to re-evaluate its hatred for Lawyers. Maybe it is the Scientists that should be our Number One Enemies.

And your basis for that is what? Currently it seems to be that 'scientists work too hard trying to find the truth'. Good argument pal.

Look at the Tobacco Lawsuits. They are still going into court claiming that Science has not "proven" that tobacco is harmful.

Contents of a cigarette
The smoke from a cigarette contains more than 4000 chemicals, which could have various toxic, mutagenic and carcinogenic effects. The content and concentration of chemical ingredients can vary widely from one brand or type of cigarette to the next.

Below is a list of few of the chemicals and their harmful effects .

Acetone
Cyanide
Aluminum
DDT/Dieldrin
Ammonia
Ethenol
Arsenic
Formaldehyde
Benzene
Hydrogen cyanide
Butane
Lead
Cadmium
Methanol
Carbon monoxide
Nicotine
Carbon dioxide
Tar
Chloroform
Vinyl Chloride

http://www.medindia.net/patients/patientinfo/tobacco_cigarette.htm

Well, you are assuming that all Buddhists agree with Buddha. They don't.
With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. There are different sects of Buddhism that follow it differently, some more "religious", in the classical sense (gods, demons, ect), some atheistic. Traditional Buddhist cosmology is not a required belief in Buddhism. Some cultures could not accept the basic tenets of Buddhism, and warped it into something it was never intended to be, but they have the freedom to do that. The tendency to create supernatural religions is unfortunately common, a result of scientific illiteracy.


You see, they have so over-specified the criteria for Truth, that absolutely no Truth outside of double-blind completely controlled laboratory experiments could ever be said to constitute "proof".
No 100% proven truth, that is. Science can still provide a statistical likelihood of something being true or not, which is often good enough. Science is careful, much more careful than religious people.

Well, Mr. Science, with all of the demonstrative indications for Global Warming, and with projections going toward replacing Food Crops with Energy Producing Produce, all while World Populations are still increasing.... do you see ANY POSSIBLE SURVIVAL Scenario?
Science revealed the problem. The solution is to end the production of greenhouse gasses. How that can happen in the environment of politics, development, ect. is not a scientific problem. We will survive, that's not the problem, either. Under what conditions, however, is determined in the end by the cumulative results of individual action.

So, really, Civilization needs to re-evaluate its hatred for Lawyers. Maybe it is the Scientists that should be our Number One Enemies.

it really ticks me off when idiots spout their shit against science; using a devise that took SCIENCE to develop! :rolleyes:

HYPOCRITE!

There are different sects of Buddhism that follow it differently, some more "religious", in the classical sense (gods, demons, ect), some atheistic. Traditional Buddhist cosmology is not a required belief in Buddhism. Some cultures could not accept the basic tenets of Buddhism, and warped it into something it was never intended to be, but they have the freedom to do that. .

It is true that there are various sects with differeing beliefs, but they all do agree with Buddha. It is written that Buddha taught various levels of truth according to ability of his audience to comprehend it and termed this "expedient means" i.e. it was acceptable to tell partial truth if it helped people along their path to liberation.

But all sects of Buddhism do accept the same few fundamental truths and core teachings.


The tendency to create supernatural religions is unfortunately common, a result of scientific illiteracy. .

Are you suggesting that the Theravada buddhists of the southern India were scientifically more literate? Because the Mahayana developed mainly in China and Northern india. China was at least as, if not more, scientifically advanced than India at the time.


Even Theravada tetxs such as the dhamapada contain casual references to gods - and not in the context that they do not exist


Some cultures could not accept the basic tenets of Buddhism, and warped it into something it was never intended to be
.

That Buddha taught by expedient means is the reason for this... It is obviously open to interpretation as to which version contains more or less of the truth. I guess the one that seems attractive to us is the one suited to our current ability to comprehend. It is in thsi way that the buddha was able to give teachings that can lead all beings closer toward liberation.


Science revealed the problem.

Yes but it could be argued that science created the problem as well. i.e. no engines = no greenhouse gasses etc.

Christ: He’s Back!

I’m certainly a Catholic, but I am glad that I have carefully been hedging my bets, as it seems that in these obvious End Times we are now experiencing the Coming Again of a Great Messiah, but not from where a good Catholic would at first expect, not from a Judeo/Christian Source. Apparently God learned His lesson there the last time. It appears that our Modern Messiah may come as the Matraiya Buddha. It may be that he is already here, and is now busy preparing himself for the role He will have to play.

He is a young man of Nepal, sixteen years old, and his name is variously spelled: Ram Bomjon, Ram Bamjan, Ram Bomjan. His ‘Buddhist’ name is Palden Dorje. The media has been calling him the “Buddha Boy”. So far he is famous for having had not eaten or drank for some six months while in silent meditation.

Of course, many people are skeptical when they hear of this, and the media only encourages such skepticism by reporting the story most marginally, partially and selectively – to please their modern skeptical and dismissive audiences. It is represented that Groups of Researchers are being consistently turned away. However, a more thoroughly researched account points to a great many verifications that the wider Media has been ignoring. Check this site: http://www.buddhadharma.com/Palden.html
We find that the young man was a trained ascetic from a very young age, and has the endorsements of his local Guru, a famous and high ranking regional Guru, and a Committee of Holy Men who all suppose him to be the Matraiya Buddha in the making. Now I hate to reveal this about the Religious Character, but it certainly is far from common for the Old Men of any Religion to acknowledge any ascendancy or superiority in any Young Men of their Religion. It is more common, even ordinary, for the Old Men of Religion to have great contempt for youth. So it MUST be a great and significant endorsement that so many Religious Old Men are willing to surrender their claims of self importance and to take their positions behind and underneath this lad.

Additionally, the Government of Nepal, in order to well regulate their own jurisdictions, sent a committee of nine specialists to study this New Matraiya, and they also came away with a solid endorsement.

In this context, when a group of Secular Atheist Skeptics arrived, introducing themselves with a slurry of rude questions and a front of obnoxiousness, well, the people, already reassured by their own Holy Men to the satisfaction of their Religion, and already reassured by their own Government Researchers, to satisfy their modern sense of rationality, well, people saw no need for this redundant group of slandering atheists and chased them away without a second thought. The Media pretends that this only group that was rejected was the only group that ever applied. One wonders why the Media would be so reluctant to express just why the local populations were so thoroughly convinced while focusing only on the smallest group which was dissatisfied only because its hostility put them at the greatest distance from the event. Perhaps the Media thought that they could save words by reporting ignorance, as informed knowledge would take so many more columns.

Here allow me to outline some of the details that the media choose rather to set aside. Besides the miraculous fasting (and any small town could soon uncover any fraud occurring there… as it would be no easy feat to sneak food miles into the jungle day after day without detection), there have been several Christ-like miracles. In two separate instances persons who were known to be dumb gained the ability to speak after having come into Our Young Lad’s presence. Then there has been the Wonder of the Lights – as the young Lad sits in meditation in the dark of night he glows in various colors – green at 10 o’clock, yellow by eleven, and the White Light at Midnight. Indeed, that Government Group that investigated, shot a video in which they recorded lights going in and coming out of the Our Young Buddha.

It was reported lately that Our Young Man went missing, but it was subsequently reported that he had only become concerned about the growing carnival atmosphere around the tree in which he was meditating. Several snake bites and then a mysterious fire at this one location were enough to convince Our Buddha in Becoming to pick up and find a better place to finish his Six Year Meditation. You see, on May 16th 2005 he had announced that he would need to complete a six year course of Meditation. So, as yet, he has only just less then one year completed of this six year program. And, again, incidentally, we are handed one more occurrence to reinforce the Big Picture View that the Essential End Time Episode will occur in 2012.

Now, as a personal observation, yes, I think this Young Man will be the Second Coming of Christ, the Modern Messiah, the Matraiya Buddha. But He is not there yet. He has just the blend of vanity and humility that makes for Spiritual Greatness. He would not cut his hair with the rest of his Monkish Fellows while on pilgrimage (having a head of gloriously thick hair), and now He is the only one of his district to suppose Himself to NOT be of the stuff of a Buddha, but claims nothing more than Lama status, being a ‘Rinpoche’, or a Bodhisattva -- all while the Old Experts are saying “Yeah, yeah, sure sure” but nonetheless expect the highest things from this Young Man. Indeed, about 7 months into His meditation, his brother heard him saying that to capture his attention he must be addressed with the Mantra “OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI”, which is the local patois for the Sanskrit AUM NAMO BUDDHA JNANI – it is a Mantra addressing the Enlightened Buddha. What can we infer? Well, the World now has its Caterpillar in the process of becoming the Butterfly. It took 40 days of fasting in the Wilderness to make a Messiah. It will take 6 years of fasting in the Jungle to give us a Matraiya. Now, we must consider that these things are never entirely preordained. We only need to review the disastrous end results of the Messiah’s short curtailed career to see that these things do not necessarily always work out for the best. So, for this new Young Matraiya, we should all probably pitch in at the level of the Collective Consciousness and wish, pray, and meditate for his support. Add our fasts and whatever penances we do for his benefit and progress. Perhaps this popular support at the root level will make all the difference later on when the elite classes of our Societies will deliberate on crucifying Him as well. Humanity must stand behind this Matraiya, this Messiah, this Time, or again we might lose out and then have to wait another two thousand years for our next slim opportunity.

Anyway, I would suggest we all take up a small ritualistic practice for the next six years, of several times a day repeating a few times “AUM NAMO BUDDHA JNANI” or “OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI”. And then to wish our Young Man luck and good fortune. He may be our last and best chance. Just envision the possibility that this Young Matraiya could forge the link that joins Humanity to Divinity – the link that joins the Collective Consciousness to the Divine Consciousness. He might be the One Spark that will start the Universal Fire. Like those Knowledgeable Holy Men of Nepal, lets all swallow our pride and get behind this young man.


While mystic perfections are certainly amazing there is nothing intrinsically theistic about them - such yogis are relatively common in the himalyan area and they can do many things that are amazing - its just that being an empowered representative of god requires more than mundane miracles - like even if you want to examine the miracles of jesus you can see that he was doing more than miracles, and in fact they only seemed to be used to convince the less intelligent class of his potency (like for instance his instructions are quite substantial) - there are many so called incarnations in india but it requires a bit of discrimination honed by scripture to determine whether there is more to theistic exhibition than miracles - even in traditional indian scriptures there are many examples of personalities who had tremendous yogic potency but who were completely atheistic - and it terms of contemporary times it tends to be the case that such yogi's who rise to fame by dint of their exhibitions secure a bit of name fame and adoration and then fall down

it really ticks me off when idiots spout their shit against science; using a devise that took SCIENCE to develop! :rolleyes:

HYPOCRITE!

Are you saying that science developed shit?
:p

Sorry LG, but I do have a policy now a days to avoid idiots!!!!

and in fact they, (jesus miracles), only seemed to.. convince the less intelligent

It's the first time I actually agree with Light Gigantic.

Interesting that religions use miracles (observed materialistic phenomenon) to support the supernatural. Interesting that they use what little science supports their claims while denying that which conflicts with it.

Sorry LG, but I do have a policy now a days to avoid idiots!!!!

actually I apologize for tht humour - but since I always seem to be on the receiving end I couldn't resist dishing it out on that occassion
:p

Interesting that religions use miracles (observed materialistic phenomenon) to support the supernatural. Interesting that they use what little science supports their claims while denying that which conflicts with it.

I remember the words of one german entrepreneur who was examining the nature of spiritual life in india and he came tot he point of disregarding whatever evidence there was for the performance of miracles since such thngs can also be performed by science (like for instance you may be able to levitate but then you could even more easily just fly in a plane) so such so-called miracles do not actually solve any real issues - a real theistic miracle however is to imbibe a mood of submissive humble service to god amongst a population who are adverse to him - this is the real miracle of jesus or other such empowered personalities which distinguishes them from some mundane yogi - religion is countless times more substantial than mere miracles

In other words, the power of identifying with an in-group, the extreme of which is martyrdom. Is that a miracle, or a facet of human nature? If people can identify in the same way with a secular institution, then that would seem to be evidence against it's miraculous nature.

Its not so much about the process of gaining affiliation with something - its about the nature of what you are gaining affiliation with - like for instance identifying with a secular institution doesn't really affect anything since death visits everyone equally - however if one actually gains affiliation with god then that is a transcendental achievement - its not so much about cliques and societies - its about manifesting the qualities of purity, which is distinct from religious principles cultivated in the pursuit of economic development, self aggrandisement, sense gratification etc etc, what to speak of secularism which is completely bereft of any metaphysical components

its about manifesting the qualities of purity, which is distinct from religious principles cultivated in the pursuit of economic development, self aggrandisement, sense gratification etc etc, what to speak of secularism which is completely bereft of any metaphysical components You must be confusing metaphysics with the supernatural.

~Raithere

You must be confusing metaphysics with the supernatural.

~Raithere


Its not clear what are the metaphysical aspects intrinsic to secularism that you are alluding to

nb - if you ar enot alluding to such things perhaps you can expand your statements and tell us what you are alluding to

Its not so much about the process of gaining affiliation with something - its about the nature of what you are gaining affiliation with - like for instance identifying with a secular institution doesn't really affect anything since death visits everyone equally - however if one actually gains affiliation with god then that is a transcendental achievement - its not so much about cliques and societies - its about manifesting the qualities of purity, which is distinct from religious principles cultivated in the pursuit of economic development, self aggrandisement, sense gratification etc etc, what to speak of secularism which is completely bereft of any metaphysical components

Death "visits" everyone (everyone dies) no matter what ideology or institution you favor. The face that you believe and take comfort in the notion of an afterlife has no bearing on wether it's true or not.

Death "visits" everyone (everyone dies) no matter what ideology or institution you favor. The face that you believe and take comfort in the notion of an afterlife has no bearing on wether it's true or not.

The fact that you don't believe and take comfort in the notion that there is no afterlife has no bearing on whether it is true or not

Duh.
But lack of any credible evidence in an afterlife is what my lack of belief is based on, and your belief (presumably) is based on a very old and fictional book.

Its not clear what are the metaphysical aspects intrinsic to secularism that you are alluding to

nb - if you ar enot alluding to such things perhaps you can expand your statements and tell us what you are alluding to The following suffices.

Metaphysics (from Greek: μετά (meta) = "after", φύσις (phúsis) = "nature") is the branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the nature of the world. It is the study of being or reality.[1] It addresses questions such as: What is the nature of reality? Is there a God? What is man's place in the universe?

A central branch of metaphysics is ontology, the investigation into what categories of things are in the world and what relations these things bear to one another. The metaphysician also attempts to clarify the notions by which people understand the world, including existence, objecthood, property, space, time, causality, and possibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics Aside from ascribing existence to them, theology and the supernatural even fall under secular concerns. We just have a differing opinion about what constitutes them.

~Raithere

Duh.
But lack of any credible evidence in an afterlife is what my lack of belief is based on, and your belief (presumably) is based on a very old and fictional book.

Raises the question (the epistemological questiion too I might add) what you require for something to be declared true knowledge - as for scripture being fictional I doubt if you have or will do a comprehensive study of scripture and situate yourself by their instructions (which is usually the prerequisite that scriptures entail for coming to the platform of knowledge beyond mere faith) - so I am not sure how authoratative your statements are if you are trying to pass them off as something more than mere opinions

The following suffices.

Aside from ascribing existence to them, theology and the supernatural even fall under secular concerns. We just have a differing opinion about what constitutes them.

~Raithere

You're still not coming clear with what exactly are the metaphysical aspects of secularism and how such things are not intrinsically pertinent to religion (particularly since your definition mentioned determining the nature of god and the world)

You're still not coming clear with what exactly are the metaphysical aspects of secularism and how such things are not intrinsically pertinent to religion (particularly since your definition mentioned determining the nature of god and the world)

You're still asking rambling diversionary questions about the most trivial things. I don't think I've read a post from you with any substance for weeks now. Out of ideas?

I am just trying to clarify what raithere is saying

Actually I haven't been online so much in the last few weeks - but that aside if you have anything to say outside of character assassination please be my guest

I am just trying to clarify what raithere is saying

Actually I haven't been online so much in the last few weeks - but that aside if you have anything to say outside of character assassination please be my guest
I thought it would be nice if you stopped talking like obfuscation was a genetic birthright of yours.

Whats that? Another attempt at charcter assasination?

Whats that? Another attempt at charcter assasination?
If the shoe fits...

As long as you don't hurt yourself while you having fun - but if you have anything related to the thread feel free to offer something

Nope. I'm done here.

Whats that? Another attempt at charcter assasination?

No LG you do that very well all on your own! ;)

You're still not coming clear with what exactly are the metaphysical aspects of secularism and how such things are not intrinsically pertinent to religion (particularly since your definition mentioned determining the nature of god and the world) I made no assertions about religion thus far, don't put words in my mouth. The comment I was responding to was this:

what to speak of secularism which is completely bereft of any metaphysical components

With which I disagree. I provided reference that metaphysics is not merely about the "supernatural" but about being, reality, existence, and meaning. Do I really need to point out that secular perspectives have as much to say, if not more, about these topics as religion? In fact I would go as far to say that secular treatments of these subjects are even more profound, as religion tends to simply place its conjecture off in the netherworld of imagined alternative realities and bury it in endless metaphor.

The reason for my response is your accusation is rather typical of the religious perspective of secular world-views; painting them as anemic, hollow, and somehow lacking the richness of human experience. I find this both amusing and irritating and entirely contrary to my own experience which tends to find theistic explanation trite and superficial when explored from within.

~Raithere

I made no assertions about religion thus far, don't put words in my mouth. The comment I was responding to was this:



With which I disagree. I provided reference that metaphysics is not merely about the "supernatural" but about being, reality, existence, and meaning. Do I really need to point out that secular perspectives have as much to say, if not more, about these topics as religion? In fact I would go as far to say that secular treatments of these subjects are even more profound, as religion tends to simply place its conjecture off in the netherworld of imagined alternative realities and bury it in endless metaphor.

The reason for my response is your accusation is rather typical of the religious perspective of secular world-views; painting them as anemic, hollow, and somehow lacking the richness of human experience. I find this both amusing and irritating and entirely contrary to my own experience which tends to find theistic explanation trite and superficial when explored from within.

~Raithere

I think we are both on different railway lines - You think I am misinterpretting what you are saying and from reading this last post I draw a mutual impression towards your reading of my statement

Originally I said

Its not so much about the process of gaining affiliation with something - its about the nature of what you are gaining affiliation with - like for instance identifying with a secular institution doesn't really affect anything since death visits everyone equally - however if one actually gains affiliation with god then that is a transcendental achievement - its not so much about cliques and societies - its about manifesting the qualities of purity, which is distinct from religious principles cultivated in the pursuit of economic development, self aggrandisement, sense gratification etc etc, what to speak of secularism which is completely bereft of any metaphysical components

to which you replied

You must be confusing metaphysics with the supernatural.

My point is that metaphysics is not intrinsic to secularism, since secularism can function with out without metaphysical components - religion on the other hand cannot function without metaphysical components, since many an atheist on this site has pointed out the limitations of religious principles in pursuit of sense gratification, economic development etc

Maybe we can take it from here ........

it really ticks me off when idiots spout their shit against science; using a devise that took SCIENCE to develop! :rolleyes:

HYPOCRITE!

Huh?

What devise is that?

Contents of a cigarette
The smoke from a cigarette contains more than 4000 chemicals, which could have various toxic, mutagenic and carcinogenic effects. The content and concentration of chemical ingredients can vary widely from one brand or type of cigarette to the next.

Below is a list of few of the chemicals and their harmful effects .

Acetone
Cyanide
Aluminum
DDT/Dieldrin
Ammonia
Ethenol
Arsenic
Formaldehyde
Benzene
Hydrogen cyanide
Butane
Lead
Cadmium
Methanol
Carbon monoxide
Nicotine
Carbon dioxide
Tar
Chloroform
Vinyl Chloride

http://www.medindia.net/patients/patientinfo/tobacco_cigarette.htm

And they still sell the things because Scientists are willing to testify in Court that it can't be proven that anybody ever died only from cigerette ingestion, that is, that nobody had yet died in a perfectly controlled experiment.

Now, if your precious Science would only make one positive assertion, then maybe we could finally get rid of Smoking. But they cling to their NOTHING CAN EVER BE PROVEN songs and dances... oh, not without their Million Dollar Grants.

We should examine the current doctrines of Scientific Protocols and notice what wonderful moneymakers they are. So Labor Intensive! We should measure the amount of money it takes to go from "WE KNOW IT ALREADY" to "NOW WE HAVE SCIENTIFIC PROOF".

But the drawback there is that Science refuses to endorce any Real World particulars. Even a Zillion Real World Particulars is not enough to bring Science to a Generalization. And that is just stupid. A failure to admit the obvious. And because they are greedy. "Give us a Grant first".

While mystic perfections are certainly amazing there is nothing intrinsically theistic about them - such yogis are relatively common in the himalyan area and they can do many things that are amazing - its just that being an empowered representative of god requires more than mundane miracles - like even if you want to examine the miracles of jesus you can see that he was doing more than miracles, and in fact they only seemed to be used to convince the less intelligent class of his potency (like for instance his instructions are quite substantial) - there are many so called incarnations in india but it requires a bit of discrimination honed by scripture to determine whether there is more to theistic exhibition than miracles - even in traditional indian scriptures there are many examples of personalities who had tremendous yogic potency but who were completely atheistic - and it terms of contemporary times it tends to be the case that such yogi's who rise to fame by dint of their exhibitions secure a bit of name fame and adoration and then fall down

Good observation. There may be no "Theistic" elements to Supernatural Phenomena, but there is always a Spiritual Content.

Every Miracle is done with the aid of some Sponsoring Power from the Spiritual World, and not all Sponsoring Powers are Perfect Angels.

But we can generally tell the Good from the Bad as per the results.

Even then it might take some discernment. For instance, The Archangel Michael, a Big Supporter of Justice, is in charge of the Avenging Angels. When Civilizations grow so corrupt that they need to be wiped aside to make room for new beginnings, then, it is not the Demons from Hell that see over the death and destruction, but Michael's Regiments. It may look very bad at the time, but a New Civilization cannot rise up until the Old is out of the way. We could not have had 11th Century France -- the Land of a Thousand Cathedrals -- if the decadent Roman Senators had still been calling the shots.

Interesting that religions use miracles (observed materialistic phenomenon) to support the supernatural. Interesting that they use what little science supports their claims while denying that which conflicts with it.

Actually, when Science denies the Miraculous, they fall back on only one 'certainty' which they insist upon, and that is that "No generality can ever be absolutely proven until an infinite number of particulars all agree".

Well, given that standard for 'proof', then NOTHING can ever be proven.

Check Hume. Check Kant.

All knowledge can be trashed.

And it is the same logic with which they attack Religion.

Christ: He’s Back!

I’m certainly a Catholic, but I am glad that I have carefully been hedging my bets, as it seems that in these obvious End Times we are now experiencing the Coming Again of a Great Messiah, but not from where a good Catholic would at first expect, not from a Judeo/Christian Source. Apparently God learned His lesson there the last time. It appears that our Modern Messiah may come as the Matraiya Buddha. It may be that he is already here, and is now busy preparing himself for the role He will have to play.

He is a young man of Nepal, sixteen years old, and his name is variously spelled: Ram Bomjon, Ram Bamjan, Ram Bomjan. His ‘Buddhist’ name is Palden Dorje. The media has been calling him the “Buddha Boy”. So far he is famous for having had not eaten or drank for some six months while in silent meditation.

Of course, many people are skeptical when they hear of this, and the media only encourages such skepticism by reporting the story most marginally, partially and selectively – to please their modern skeptical and dismissive audiences. It is represented that Groups of Researchers are being consistently turned away. However, a more thoroughly researched account points to a great many verifications that the wider Media has been ignoring. Check this site: http://www.buddhadharma.com/Palden.html
We find that the young man was a trained ascetic from a very young age, and has the endorsements of his local Guru, a famous and high ranking regional Guru, and a Committee of Holy Men who all suppose him to be the Matraiya Buddha in the making. Now I hate to reveal this about the Religious Character, but it certainly is far from common for the Old Men of any Religion to acknowledge any ascendancy or superiority in any Young Men of their Religion. It is more common, even ordinary, for the Old Men of Religion to have great contempt for youth. So it MUST be a great and significant endorsement that so many Religious Old Men are willing to surrender their claims of self importance and to take their positions behind and underneath this lad.

Additionally, the Government of Nepal, in order to well regulate their own jurisdictions, sent a committee of nine specialists to study this New Matraiya, and they also came away with a solid endorsement.

In this context, when a group of Secular Atheist Skeptics arrived, introducing themselves with a slurry of rude questions and a front of obnoxiousness, well, the people, already reassured by their own Holy Men to the satisfaction of their Religion, and already reassured by their own Government Researchers, to satisfy their modern sense of rationality, well, people saw no need for this redundant group of slandering atheists and chased them away without a second thought. The Media pretends that this only group that was rejected was the only group that ever applied. One wonders why the Media would be so reluctant to express just why the local populations were so thoroughly convinced while focusing only on the smallest group which was dissatisfied only because its hostility put them at the greatest distance from the event. Perhaps the Media thought that they could save words by reporting ignorance, as informed knowledge would take so many more columns.

Here allow me to outline some of the details that the media choose rather to set aside. Besides the miraculous fasting (and any small town could soon uncover any fraud occurring there… as it would be no easy feat to sneak food miles into the jungle day after day without detection), there have been several Christ-like miracles. In two separate instances persons who were known to be dumb gained the ability to speak after having come into Our Young Lad’s presence. Then there has been the Wonder of the Lights – as the young Lad sits in meditation in the dark of night he glows in various colors – green at 10 o’clock, yellow by eleven, and the White Light at Midnight. Indeed, that Government Group that investigated, shot a video in which they recorded lights going in and coming out of the Our Young Buddha.

It was reported lately that Our Young Man went missing, but it was subsequently reported that he had only become concerned about the growing carnival atmosphere around the tree in which he was meditating. Several snake bites and then a mysterious fire at this one location were enough to convince Our Buddha in Becoming to pick up and find a better place to finish his Six Year Meditation. You see, on May 16th 2005 he had announced that he would need to complete a six year course of Meditation. So, as yet, he has only just less then one year completed of this six year program. And, again, incidentally, we are handed one more occurrence to reinforce the Big Picture View that the Essential End Time Episode will occur in 2012.

Now, as a personal observation, yes, I think this Young Man will be the Second Coming of Christ, the Modern Messiah, the Matraiya Buddha. But He is not there yet. He has just the blend of vanity and humility that makes for Spiritual Greatness. He would not cut his hair with the rest of his Monkish Fellows while on pilgrimage (having a head of gloriously thick hair), and now He is the only one of his district to suppose Himself to NOT be of the stuff of a Buddha, but claims nothing more than Lama status, being a ‘Rinpoche’, or a Bodhisattva -- all while the Old Experts are saying “Yeah, yeah, sure sure” but nonetheless expect the highest things from this Young Man. Indeed, about 7 months into His meditation, his brother heard him saying that to capture his attention he must be addressed with the Mantra “OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI”, which is the local patois for the Sanskrit AUM NAMO BUDDHA JNANI – it is a Mantra addressing the Enlightened Buddha. What can we infer? Well, the World now has its Caterpillar in the process of becoming the Butterfly. It took 40 days of fasting in the Wilderness to make a Messiah. It will take 6 years of fasting in the Jungle to give us a Matraiya. Now, we must consider that these things are never entirely preordained. We only need to review the disastrous end results of the Messiah’s short curtailed career to see that these things do not necessarily always work out for the best. So, for this new Young Matraiya, we should all probably pitch in at the level of the Collective Consciousness and wish, pray, and meditate for his support. Add our fasts and whatever penances we do for his benefit and progress. Perhaps this popular support at the root level will make all the difference later on when the elite classes of our Societies will deliberate on crucifying Him as well. Humanity must stand behind this Matraiya, this Messiah, this Time, or again we might lose out and then have to wait another two thousand years for our next slim opportunity.

Anyway, I would suggest we all take up a small ritualistic practice for the next six years, of several times a day repeating a few times “AUM NAMO BUDDHA JNANI” or “OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI”. And then to wish our Young Man luck and good fortune. He may be our last and best chance. Just envision the possibility that this Young Matraiya could forge the link that joins Humanity to Divinity – the link that joins the Collective Consciousness to the Divine Consciousness. He might be the One Spark that will start the Universal Fire. Like those Knowledgeable Holy Men of Nepal, lets all swallow our pride and get behind this young man.


Nothing special about him, he's one of many. Maybe he is rare for Nepal, globally, there are likely millions like him.

Secondly, why would anyone want to be the Messiah? That's a horrible label to give a child, it's going to ruin this childs life in my opinion.

It's a matter of degree. If something is 99% likely to be true (or less in many cases), we may assume that it is true.

To address your point, science does not have to "fall back" on anything. They aren't backed into a corner to disprove the miraculous, it's just that there is no real evidence. Personal anecdotes don't count, since the mind can be fooled.

So, it's not that miracles can't be proven 100%, they can't even be proven with 1% certainty.

Secondly, why would anyone want to be the Messiah? That's a horrible label to give a child, it's going to ruin this childs life in my opinion. Particularly when they crucify him. :eek:

~Raithere

Huh?

What devise is that?

The computer Leo :rolleyes:

Now, if your precious Science would only make one positive assertion, then maybe we could finally get rid of Smoking. But they cling to their NOTHING CAN EVER BE PROVEN songs and dances... oh, not without their Million Dollar Grants.

Fill yer boots, pal. And then stop being so ridiculous.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data.htm

And they still sell the things because Scientists are willing to testify in Court that it can't be proven that anybody ever died only from cigerette ingestion

It actually comes down to human rights for the public, and for the government - money. In England the tax on cigarettes is around 95%. A sweetshop only earns 2p for selling a pack of cigarettes while the government gets £4 for that same pack.

The fact is people need their vices. Some countries have got around to making prostitution legal, most you'll find will allow mass alcohol consumption even though it kills, and pretty much everywhere allows smoking. And yes, they do know it kills, so do the smokers - but is that justification to ban it outright?


And because they are greedy.

From New Scientist.. (yearly earnings)

Research Technician Grade C = £14,618
Postdoctoral position in cell motility, (molecular biophysics) = £26,000
Radiobiology = £22,500
Synthetic chemistry associate = £24,000
Immuno-Pharmacologist = £26,401

Compare that to a 'good' footballer.. yes, someone that can kick a pigs testicle round for 90 minutes.. £100,000 (a week, not yearly)

Science greedy? Hardly..