An interesting piece that caught my eye, which will no doubt make England & English society seem even more strange to those of you on the outside looking in (yes yanks I mean you).

The press in Britain has recently been having fun mocking a group for which pejorative descriptions have been created such as “non-educated delinquents” and “the burgeoning peasant underclass”. The subjects of these derogatory descriptions are said to be set apart by ignorance, fecklessness, mindless violence and bad taste.
To illustrate the last of these, critics point to their style of dress: a love of flashy gold jewellery (hooped earrings, thick neck chains, sovereign rings and heavy bangles, which all may be lumped together under the term bling-bling); the wearing of white trainers (in what is called “prison white”, so clean that they look new); clothes in fashionable brands with very prominent logos; and baseball caps, frequently in Burberry check, a favourite style. The women, the Daily Mail wrote recently in a characteristic burst of maidenly distaste, “pull their shoddily dyed hair back in that ultra-tight bun known as a ‘council-house facelift’, wear skirts too short for their mottled blue thighs, and expose too much of their distressingly flabby midriffs”.

full article:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/topicalwords/tw-cha2.htm

Theyve been around for decades, its just the uniform varies. They were known more commonly as Neds a few years ago, but chavs has taken off. Also called Schemies in scotland, because they lived on housing schemes. I know of no actual evidence that they are on the increase, but they make a convenient righ wing scapegoat for something. (i dont know exaclty what, since a better poster child for mindless consumerism and personal idolatry is hard to find.)

well this is it. You touch on an interesting point regarding the RW scapegoat; the irony being that your average nazi bnp RW thug is pure chav.

The BNP is only part of the "right" wing. If we ignore the problems with simple right/ left dichotomies just now, what you also have who are interested in whipping up resentment of chavs (though neds are perfectly capable of making enough trouble for themselves, it is noticeable that the most vehement hatred of htem comes from well behaved working class people.) are the Thatcherites, ie pro big gvt, paternalism, business and the rich, and the more libertarian minded destroy the gvt type people.

You touch on a point raised in the linked article, aswell as raising a couple of others. but firstly I think any distinction between chavs, nerds etc etc is purely linguistic in that they are, I feel all terms defining the same sociological group.

Now,you mention:

it is noticeable that the most vehement hatred of htem comes from well behaved working class people

and:

the Thatcherites, ie pro big gvt, paternalism, business and the rich

also:

and the more libertarian minded destroy the gvt type people.

I agree, but firstly I'd like to raise a point in the linked article:

This upsurge of popular distaste towards one group may be evidence for a cultural shift back towards a class-ridden British society

my opinion is that Britain never left the class ridden society, but what has happened over the last few decades is that the nature and dynamics of the class structuring has been altered with the emergence of new classes in Britain. These classes are all at the lower end of the system, indeed what has happened that the the very lowest class has been defined over the last few years causing all subsequent classes to "budge up one place" as it were.
This can be seen with the mass arrival of asian + Afro carib immigrants in the 1950's (asians + afro-caribs have been in Britain since the 1900s, + possibly even earlier, but in smaller numbers off course).
The arrival of these immigrants heralded a "re-defining" of Britains exsisting class system in that group previously defined as "the lower class" were no longer so. Indeed the new immigrants took that mantle and were the new "lower class" and that by default meant that the old lower class were now "promoted" + hence new definitions ensued.
And thus we see this happening today with the arrival of asylum seekers (both legal and illeagal) which now form the new "under class" or the lowest rung in britain's illustrious class system. Again we see a knock - on effect in promotion (although the emergence of the new under class alone is not responsible for some "up shifts" in the class system).
Large numbers of second + third generation asians + afro caribs are now in lower-middle + even middle classes which in itself is another interesting point, in that now race alone cannot be used as a parameter to define the class catagories, since for any particular ehtnic group is now represented right accross the low to middle classes.

Aswell as the new emerging under classes having a re-defining effect in "promotion" etc, what we also see is re-defining of exsisting classes themselves in terms of "sub division".

your 1st point touches on this:

it is noticeable that the most vehement hatred of htem comes from well behaved working class people

indeed. What we are seeing is the dissection and polarisation of the "lower" or "working" class itself.

Yup, ned, chav etc are just different names. I dont know what the names were 70 years ago, it would be interesting to find out.

"my opinion is that Britain never left the class ridden society, but what has happened over the last few decades is that the nature and dynamics of the class structuring has been altered with the emergence of new classes in Britain. These classes are all at the lower end of the system, indeed what has happened that the the very lowest class has been defined over the last few years causing all subsequent classes to "budge up one place" as it were."

Ummmmmmm, welllll, yes and no. The UK has never stopped being class ridden, but what has happened is more that the class importance has shifted more clearly to money, rather than birth. Which is not to downplay yahs and suchlike, but having money is more important than anything else, more so than it was even 40 years ago. Which is in a sense both the emergence of a new class and simply the relabelling of an old one. I would disagree about the relabelling of the very lowest class. Skivers and the various lowest of the low have always been with us, and as such I dont think the other classes have been asked to budge up, so much as that attention is actually paid to the lowest classes, and they therefore come more into peopels consiousness.


"The arrival of these immigrants heralded a "re-defining" of Britains exsisting class system in that group previously defined as "the lower class" were no longer so."

I disagree. I think more that the immigrants were regarded more in a racist light, than a class based one. They were often seen as inferior, and therefore would have been slotted into the class in which people put scroungers, chavs and schemies, rather than good old undereducated hard working working class people. In that sense the british class system is deficient, in that it is usually put as 3 layers, but relaly you need 4 or 5, the 2 newer ones being one at the bottom, ie those percieved as outside society, like chavs and immigrants, and perhaps an extra layer at the top, representing the international people, who are like royalty bu slightly more numerous, but less well known.

You see, with the point:
"indeed. What we are seeing is the dissection and polarisation of the "lower" or "working" class itself."

I am trying to say that such a polarisation has been in place all along. I was working alongside someone last year who claimed to be 70 or so, and doing it for the extra money and because he was bored. I saw no particular reason to argue about his age, but that meant that he was around before and during WW2. He sometimes fulminated about how in the good old days people were more respectable and that people that we now call neds were kept under better control, by violence or other means. PLus trades unions in scotland were often a means of class oppression, in that they usually represented the better paid workers, who looked down upon the simple grunts, who would have been at the level of neds etc (in the 19th century this was very comon, less so in the 20th due to "leftie" ideals.). So, the working class split has been around for a while. Now, i would also add that there is a certain kind of chauvinism associated with working class people anyway, ie anti intellectualism, ie when you use long words and stuff, they think your just trying to make them look stupid. So they end up maximising the importance of practicalities and muscle work, over computerised brain work. this is a trend as dangerous as mere intellectualism is as well.

guthrie:The UK has never stopped being class ridden, but what has happened is more that the class importance has shifted more clearly to money,

as I outlined:

out:but what has happened over the last few decades is that the nature and dynamics of the class structuring has been altered with the emergence of new classes in Britain.

indeed the importance in aquired wealth has become an important factor in the definition of the new class infrasrtucture, with terms such as "old money" + "new money" being used.

I think more that the immigrants were regarded more in a racist light, than a class based one

...They were often seen as inferior,

these factors themsleves by default define a new underclass.

guthrie.....and that people that we now call neds were kept under better control, by violence or other means.
I have heard a bit about this, can you expand?



Also : worth a read:

Stein Ringen of Oxford University has argued persuasively that: "What is peculiar to Britain is not the reality of the class system and its continuing existence, but class psychology: the preoccupation with class, the belief in class, and the symbols of class in manners, dress, and language." David Cannadine's book takes that as its starting point.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0375703683.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

The Decline & Fall of the British Aristocracy
Written by DAVID CANNADINE

Yet almost every 'yank' can research some rather direct lineage on par w/ several of a number of ice ages.

I know of no actual evidence that they are on the increase
Number of pub fights on a weekend? Number of cars stolen by unemployed "joyriders"? Number of council houses broken into by "youths" - I'm not quite old enough to remember the days when "you could leave your front door unlocked", but I am old enough to remember that the "average" council house kid did not go around stealing from their neighbours.
Even back in the "good old days", okay, as far back as when skinheads became "popular", hearing of (let alone seeing or being caught up in) a street scrap was so rare as to be a matter of immediate discussion for all of that particular age group. Nowadays I regularly skirt two or three skirmishes a week on my way home after closing time.

Indeed, even money seems denote no particular culture, let alone class inherent, regardless of one's predisposal to stereotypes. Though, as well, the admixture would appear no truly new occasion.

outlandish was beaten up by a Chav.

Guthrie is quite right, theyve been around for almost two decades now. Theyre the high-tide scum left over from the rave/madchester scene. The people who got left behind and forgot to get themselves some culture in the process.
Infact im convinced that's why everyone hates them, they just live in this perverse a-cultural vacum, they dont change, they dont do anything.
Of course as others have said, there's always been an underclass but we've never minded before because the underclass has always created culture on our behalf, they put something back in.

Teddy-boys, rockers, mods, the bluesmen and jazz musicians from southern america. All these people had a far far greater claim to poverty, lack of basic healthcare and education than their modern day chav counterparts.
But they still managed to create some of the best music and art of the 20th century.
Chav's dont produce great art, they dont offer anything to society, there's nothing there to warrant our forgiveness. They absolutely deserve to be torn apart in the press imo, get some fucking culture.