View Full Version : Characteristics of Genius?


SomethingClever
11-24-10, 01:01 AM
I recently did some Googling on the nature of "genius" (a subjective term, to be sure)

what I found was "extreme sensitivity" and considered "weird" or "aloof" in the minds of others.

Have you folks met anyone you suspect is a genius? and while you're at it, what is genius?

cosmictraveler
11-24-10, 09:29 AM
Someone with mental abilities that most everyone doesn't have giving them superior knowledge about things that most of us don't understand.

The ability to see things that others can't and can interpert what they mean so others can understand them.

I've met a few people like that in my life, Salvidor Dali being one of them.

Fraggle Rocker
11-24-10, 10:47 AM
What I found was "extreme sensitivity" and considered "weird" or "aloof" in the minds of others. Have you folks met anyone you suspect is a genius? and while you're at it, what is genius?People called me both "genius" and "weird and aloof" when I was a kid. Nobody ever accused me of extreme sensitivity, but the word was used in a different sense, to mean sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. In contrast to "aloof."

My IQ was 140, but a civil service job takes off two points per year, so it's now in the 80s.

*~PriNcesS~*
11-24-10, 10:52 AM
A genius is one deeply introspective, and usually an introvert. A genius develops autistic behavior overtime(super sensitivity to touch) because of impaired social interaction and communication.When they go deep into that vast stellar complex, they tend to become unaware of their surroundings.they're extremely creative , they live by creation, they have to create things inorder to get by,therefore they find daily life routines boring.they usually have difficulty communicating. they don't take time to get to know anybody because they're in their own world of creation most of the time.

Stoniphi
11-24-10, 04:41 PM
We actually studied this a bit in psych at u...our conclusion then was that "genius" is a word we use to describe someone that we currently admire for some reason or another.

J.S. Bach was just a guy who played the organ and had a big family, then he died. Now, a few hundred years later, he is a "genius". Ditto for Beethoven and Mozart.

Some folks say Tesla was a "genius" others that he was a crackpot.....it is in the (fickle) eye of the beholder, more a social valuation than a real world phenomenon.

I won't even get into art and artists.....

DNA100
11-25-10, 05:40 AM
I recommend reading the book "Genius Explained" by Michael J.A Howe.

And a genius has very little or nothing to with high IQ.

DNA100
12-09-10, 12:19 PM
here is a video that many of you may find interesting :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1U4nBKxORg

Einstein said "The secret to being a genius is knowing how to hide your sources".What it means is that there is no such thing as perfect originality.Every creative idea,like the video mentioned,is actually a connection of ideas that we are already aware of (due to natural experiences or by leaning from others) .The geniuses are better at hiding their original sources of ideas because they are able to create a richer mix.

Oh,by the way ,the book that I mentioned defines genius in terms of achievement,arguing that anyone who has never achieved anything significant is unlikely to be called a genius,even if extremely able.And the most important characteristics of a genius is at least 10000 hours intense and systematic practice and training of relevant skills.

Fraggle Rocker
12-09-10, 12:36 PM
Einstein said "The secret to being a genius is knowing how to hide your sources". What it means is that there is no such thing as perfect originality.I have always maintained that the secret to being funny is not necessarily the ability to create jokes, but simply to remember the ones you've heard and repeat them accurately.

Emil
12-09-10, 12:50 PM
I think one characteristic of genius is the power to waive any
to do what he wants and what he likes.

WillNever
12-09-10, 05:23 PM
No, that's definitely not one.

francois
12-09-10, 09:52 PM
A genius is one deeply introspective, and usually an introvert. A genius develops autistic behavior overtime(super sensitivity to touch) because of impaired social interaction and communication.When they go deep into that vast stellar complex, they tend to become unaware of their surroundings.they're extremely creative , they live by creation, they have to create things inorder to get by,therefore they find daily life routines boring.they usually have difficulty communicating. they don't take time to get to know anybody because they're in their own world of creation most of the time.

Nahhh, an IQ is someone who has an IQ of 140, or thereabouts.

Dr Mabuse
12-10-10, 06:43 AM
Unhappy.

Absane
02-24-11, 11:42 AM
A lot of people make the mistake of equating a high IQ with genius. We don't have a definitive definition of genius... but whatever it is, it's a combination of an above-average IQ with extreme creativity. The two are inner-related to some significant degree, but not too much. For example... Marilyn vos Savant supposedly has the highest IQ in the world, but she makes far less of a contribution to society (if any) than did Einstein or Newton, who had estimated IQs of 150, must less than her. Marilyn is extremely intelligent, but by no means a genius. She can easily comprehend anything Einstein or any other genius produced, but she can't produce anything much on that level. Or look at Richard Feynman. His estimated IQ was only 125... but he was a genius because of his extreme level of creative ability matched with a sufficient amount of intelligence.

Basically, genius requires a mix of extreme creativity and the intelligence to know how to make sense of their creativity. And with that comes the reason why people just don't understand anyone on the genius level, and why they tend to go unnoticed until either late in their life to centuries after their death. The extremely intelligence alone are misunderstood and appear threatening to "normal" people. They can do things most people can't and there isn't a way to easily compete with them. And then there are the extremely creative people... anyone less creative than them just can't figure out why they see the world so strangely and some might even figure that they have a sort of mental illness. And many do have a mental illness because they have less latent inhibition.

A low level of LI can be the major contribution factor to mental illness because it's the job of the brain to take in stimuli and "make sense" out of it... if the brain cannot do this, psychosis or the like set it. This is what happens when you sleep... you're brain stops trying to make sense out of everything and the result is a series of non-sensible dreams. Have you ever had one of those days where you got very little sleep and as the day progresses, you see non-sense things like dinosaurs or believe that you see trees dancing or hear on the radio that aliens have made contact with us? That's what low LI is like. You're brain takes in stimuli, confuses it all, and treats it like it's not worth tuning out. So, for those of you that don't know why some people (such as myself) are overly-sensitive to a lot of things (compared to the vast majority of the population), this is why.

So, that explains the typical genius. Nobody understands them because they're too smart and people think they're odd because they're extremely creativity. Of course, being a genius doesn't mean that they'll ever produce anything useful, just as being extremely intelligent means that you'll make a lot of money or that being 7 feet tall will mean that you're great at basketball.

Taken from the book "The Creative Brain:"

"Personality traits that define the creative individual include openness to experience, adventuresomeness, rebelliousness, individualism, sensitivity, playfulness, persistence, curiosity, and simplicity."

Lilalena
02-27-11, 11:22 AM
We actually studied this a bit in psych at u...our conclusion then was that "genius" is a word we use to describe someone that we currently admire for some reason or another.

J.S. Bach was just a guy who played the organ and had a big family, then he died. Now, a few hundred years later, he is a "genius". Ditto for Beethoven and Mozart.



I agree with you. It's the only way to reconcile the following contradiction:
-genius is considered rare
-most people consider themselves one

jmpet
02-27-11, 12:27 PM
I will not fall into the vanity gap and postulate how much smarter I am than you because a test told me so.

Genius is the capacity to be singleminded- to explore a concept to its end and posit based on those results.

Me-Ki-Gal
02-27-11, 03:47 PM
here is a video that many of you may find interesting :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1U4nBKxORg

Einstein said "The secret to being a genius is knowing how to hide your sources".What it means is that there is no such thing as perfect originality.Every creative idea,like the video mentioned,is actually a connection of ideas that we are already aware of (due to natural experiences or by leaning from others) .The geniuses are better at hiding their original sources of ideas because they are able to create a richer mix.

Oh,by the way ,the book that I mentioned defines genius in terms of achievement,arguing that anyone who has never achieved anything significant is unlikely to be called a genius,even if extremely able.And the most important characteristics of a genius is at least 10000 hours intense and systematic practice and training of relevant skills.

I agree. We are a reflection of past learning. Humans copy humans . We build on what has already been built. We take the foundation of past learned knowledge and reorganize . Look at it up side down backwards and forwards and then build on it. We connect dots that have not been connected , We match up thoughts that were not matched. We rediscover things like they are new and on big occasions the hero ( I like to call them hero's) casts away into uncharted territory in search of something new . If we can use it to our own benefit we love the hero and exalted them to supernatural status. Ca bam the genius is born

Me-Ki-Gal
02-27-11, 03:49 PM
I will not fall into the vanity gap and postulate how much smarter I am than you because a test told me so.

Genius is the capacity to be singleminded- to explore a concept to its end and posit based on those results.

Well my little single minded narrow point of views . The idiotic fool must be a ?
What ! What ! What! did you say that? What ? What ? What ? did you say

Me-Ki-Gal
02-27-11, 03:55 PM
I have always maintained that the secret to being funny is not necessarily the ability to create jokes, but simply to remember the ones you've heard and repeat them accurately.

I don't know about that . You better laugh at my jokes our I will mentally hurt you. I will ? I will? do something . Box your ears . Yeah I will mentally box your ears . With a feather duster. Can you feel it? That little tickle on your ear. Don't scratch it . Get your hand away from your ear Now . You are not listening . Stop scratching your ear.
Thats what you get if you don't laugh at my jokes

Ronaldo01
03-25-11, 02:44 AM
In my dictionary genius is that who has complete knowledge on every issue and who performs rather than speaking. And performer is the best genius not the speaker or thinker. One who performs deserved to be the tittle of genius.

Jim S
03-26-11, 07:56 PM
I'm starting to think a genius is anyone who can write an understandable sentence and spell words correctly.

Dywyddyr
03-26-11, 08:03 PM
I'm starting to think a genius is anyone who can write an understandable sentence and spell words correctly.

That wud bee me than. I are absoulotely a geneous.

Bebelina
03-26-11, 08:03 PM
I'm starting to think a genius is anyone who can write an understandable sentence and spell words correctly.

That's about it.

birch
03-27-11, 12:23 AM
i have been called weird a lot. anyone that people perceive to be different will usually be labeled "weird" but that doesn't mean they are a genius either. weird can be anything from being incorrect to seeing things in a different way. i do often have strange ideas that have no basis in reality or can't be grounded but i do know the difference. i think genius is being able to ground ideas and make them into reality, that is if it's beneficial rather than harmful. i think creativity without a conscience is madness and the ultimate stupidity.

i did go from a shy (unless i knew people), sensitive and imaginative child who liked to draw a lot and was a perfectionist to a crass and aggressive person but when it comes to important issues, i know to draw on my sense of conscience and it kicks in.

i did retain most of my analness, however.

chimpkin
03-27-11, 12:31 AM
My wife is a genius. She really is. I take ideas that I think are awesome to her, and I'm all excited and...she just totally lets the air out of them like an old tire. Psssst.

Not in a mean way...it's just so obvious to her that something is so...and she'll just say it, and blaaah, splat.
:shrug:

I cannot get much of an ego married to her.

Spud Emperor
03-27-11, 03:38 AM
Chimpkin, I'm in exactly the same boat.
And I have a genius son to boot.
I'm no idiot (now, now) but sometimes I feel like a fool in their presence.
Fortunately they have their weaknesses and I even have flashes of brilliance.
When the two circumstances coincide I feel a little less dumb.

They both have their incredibly powerful intellectual strengths and the things they believe they don't do well are still way beyond most people's capabilities.

birch
03-27-11, 03:51 AM
in reality, most people are not geniuses. there are very highly intelligent people though. one doesn't have to be a genius to make a difference. there are those with some of the highest iq's who have contributed little to nothing. a genius is usually one who solves a problem intelligent people have been unable to. einstein was a genius, most of his colleagues were not, even though they also had very high iq's. einstein was able to think outside the box more than them and that is why.

there are a lot of "ingenious" people though which we usually don't call them geniuses because there are so many of them. there are artists, fashion designers, music producers etc. but especially fiction writers, many of them are geniuses as in very creative.

SomethingClever
03-27-11, 03:10 PM
"talent hits a target few others can hit, genius hits a target no one else can see"

Absane
03-28-11, 09:45 AM
I find it a bit upsetting that no one commented on my post (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2697068&postcount=13). I'm also a bit perplexed to find that in the history of sciforums, a community supposedly comprised of humans equipped with above-average intelligence, that this is the only thread specifically devoted to the discussion of what a genius is. Maybe I'm wrong, but feel free to link to any other thread.


in reality, most people are not geniuses.

True. However, I could argue that perhaps 50% of the population has the capability of developing their own unique skill sets that would parallel genius. One of many characteristics of a genius is a strong work ethic. It may seem like the best ideas in the world come out of thin air (like Einstein's theories) but that's only because we are unaware of all the work that went into that idea. We seem to romanticize the image of Einstein sitting on a bus and out of the blue coming up with his idea of Special Relativity, launching his career and stardom. However, he set everything in motion at least 10 years prior and spent much of his free time between the two events doing physics. There is nothing sexy about working your ass off for 10 years and it doesn't make for a great story, so no one talks about that. What does make for a sexy story is to somehow relate him to everyone else, as being a normal person, who, through shear luck alone had a brilliant insight. At least that way, people can find a way to relate to him and idly fantasize that maybe one day we, too, will have an idea like Einstein. It doesn't work that way.

You know those times in everyday life when you have that brief intuitive flash when trying to recall someone's name or remembering what where you misplaced your keys? That e-x-a-c-t same process is genius at work. Just imagine if you combined that with YEARS of study and hard work in any field. Of course, it only works if you possess an open mind, too. A closed mind does not allow ideas to fuse, much in the same way if you were looking for your keys but your closed mind is "sure" they are in your bedroom when in fact they are not and your intuition is telling you otherwise.


"talent hits a target few others can hit, genius hits a target no one else can see"

This is a quote about open-mindedness. I might dare to add that a genius will explore any target he hits. He might throw a dart, miss the bullseye, evaluate the situation, and then might conclude that he was please to hit where he did.

birch
03-28-11, 11:25 AM
I find it a bit upsetting that no one commented on my post (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2697068&postcount=13). I'm also a bit perplexed to find that in the history of sciforums, a community supposedly comprised of humans equipped with above-average intelligence, that this is the only thread specifically devoted to the discussion of what a genius is. Maybe I'm wrong, but feel free to link to any other thread.



True. However, I could argue that perhaps 50% of the population has the capability of developing their own unique skill sets that would parallel genius. One of many characteristics of a genius is a strong work ethic. It may seem like the best ideas in the world come out of thin air (like Einstein's theories) but that's only because we are unaware of all the work that went into that idea. We seem to romanticize the image of Einstein sitting on a bus and out of the blue coming up with his idea of Special Relativity, launching his career and stardom. However, he set everything in motion at least 10 years prior and spent much of his free time between the two events doing physics. There is nothing sexy about working your ass off for 10 years and it doesn't make for a great story, so no one talks about that. What does make for a sexy story is to somehow relate him to everyone else, as being a normal person, who, through shear luck alone had a brilliant insight. At least that way, people can find a way to relate to him and idly fantasize that maybe one day we, too, will have an idea like Einstein. It doesn't work that way.

You know those times in everyday life when you have that brief intuitive flash when trying to recall someone's name or remembering what where you misplaced your keys? That e-x-a-c-t same process is genius at work. Just imagine if you combined that with YEARS of study and hard work in any field. Of course, it only works if you possess an open mind, too. A closed mind does not allow ideas to fuse, much in the same way if you were looking for your keys but your closed mind is "sure" they are in your bedroom when in fact they are not and your intuition is telling you otherwise.



This is a quote about open-mindedness. I might dare to add that a genius will explore any target he hits. He might throw a dart, miss the bullseye, evaluate the situation, and then might conclude that he was please to hit where he did.

first of all, i don't find the members here to be all that intelligent. they are intelligent in a very logical, superficial way like a computer is intelligent or everyone is intelligent in their own way. some of them are so superficial it's hard to believe they are not joking. i also don't see much ability to think outside the box even when something is obvious that doesn't coincide with current societal conditioning but i see a lot of rote learning.

i never said that einstein was winging it or that is something to be proud of. it's obvious he put a lot of work and thought into it and experienced moments of frustration grappling with it.

there are many ingenious people as was mentioned. an interest is the motivator and start of anything. everyone is capable of their own type of genius, so to speak. besides, everyone is ignorant or dumb in some way as well as their areas of talent or intelligence differ and that includes those of high iq. this is why life has so much variety and different types of people with varying abilities and talents. we don't go to a doctor to get a wonderful meal or to a physicist to hear great music etc

chimpkin
03-28-11, 12:20 PM
i don't find the members here to be all that intelligent.

Nah, but at least the people here can spell, which does make the members mostly better than some places on the 'net.;)

birch
03-28-11, 12:39 PM
Nah, but at least the people here can spell, which does make the members mostly better than some places on the 'net.;)

that was lame because not every forum has a fusion of misspellers. besides, one can spout nonsense even with perfect grammar and spelling. if you don't believe me, read a bible commentary or get a clue perhaps.

did anyone say that this forum was all stupid or the most intelligent? it is a combination of people but my opinion is that they are not all that intelligent, maybe some of them are who are very knowledgeable in their specialty or work.

that's just my opinion.

Syzygys
03-28-11, 12:40 PM
People called me both "genius" and "weird and aloof" when I was a kid.

Me too, like this:

"Hey, genius, don't you know how to ride a bicycle?"

Syzygys
03-28-11, 12:44 PM
My wife is a genius.

I cannot get much of an ego married to her.

Really smart people marry a SMARTER person than them. What is the point of marrying a dumbass????

birch
03-28-11, 12:54 PM
Really smart people marry a SMARTER person than them. What is the point of marrying a dumbass????

well, if she is smarter than him, then she did marry a dumbass relative to her.

SomethingClever
03-28-11, 02:42 PM
Absane- I loved your initial post. It was insightful and in my opinion spot-on.
In fact it was that very post that made creating this thread worthwhile.

edit: in fact your post was genius in itself -- takes one to know one, perhaps? ;)

Absane
03-29-11, 05:03 PM
Absane- I loved your initial post. It was insightful and in my opinion spot-on.
In fact it was that very post that made creating this thread worthwhile.

edit: in fact your post was genius in itself -- takes one to know one, perhaps? ;)

There are things I might have said with slight difference in that post, but in doing so I'll start myself in an endless loop of constant re-evaluations. Any discussion on genius isn't without differing opinions and it isn't without it's complications or controversies.

One thing I'd like to add is that genius isn't always recognized when it happens, and I might dare say that sometimes it may NEVER be recognized. The reasons are many. One is: social constructs can be very rigid. So, even proof that the earth is round can go unrecognized for a long time. Secondly, sometimes the producer of genius isn't well equipped with the capabilities that would allow for communications of his or her ideas on a scale that is accessible to other people.

As for me being a genius. Hrm... I very much doubt it. I have enough intelligence and creativity to know that I could, in theory, become one if I learned how to cultivate the work ethic needed. But, then again, any one with above-average intelligence and a creative mind could become one. That's my contention, so I don't feel to be anything special.

birch
03-29-11, 05:26 PM
There are things I might have said with slight difference in that post, but in doing so I'll start myself in an endless loop of constant re-evaluations. Any discussion on genius isn't without differing opinions and it isn't without it's complications or controversies.

One thing I'd like to add is that genius isn't always recognized when it happens, and I might dare say that sometimes it may NEVER be recognized. The reasons are many. One is: social constructs can be very rigid. So, even proof that the earth is round can go unrecognized for a long time. Secondly, sometimes the producer of genius isn't well equipped with the capabilities that would allow for communications of his or her ideas on a scale that is accessible to other people.

As for me being a genius. Hrm... I very much doubt it. I have enough intelligence and creativity to know that I could, in theory, become one if I learned how to cultivate the work ethic needed. But, then again, any one with above-average intelligence and a creative mind could become one. That's my contention, so I don't feel to be anything special.

this is true. how many unknown people exist in the world where their situation probibits them from developing their full potential? most likely very many. how many people even in the past were unknown due to circumstances? probably very many.

even using simple examples of how we have famous people today with some talent that is recognized. if you are in a society that is not geared to recognizing that talent or gift, it will go unnnoticed, undeveloped or even rejected. let's take for instance those who can sing and have become well known, i'm sure there were many people even in the past who were great singers who never even had a chance to become known for this talent. silly example, no american idol. people focused on eating and surviving or different talents or abilities were considered more recognizably worthy or people were not given credit for what they did. it's also your circumstances as well as society has to be ready to recognize genius or some types of genius just can't be marketable.

wellwisher
03-29-11, 05:54 PM
There is a saying, there is a fine line between genius and insanity. In both cases, the unconscious mind is involved doing the data crunching in the background. Genius is able to harness this, turning the output into practical reality. The unconscious mind is like the CPU of the brain, with the conscious mind like a terminal. The CPU gives output and the terminal decompresses it into a solution.

As an analogous example, say you met someone you didn't like, but can't explain why this is the case. The unconscious did the data crunching and came to that conclusion which the person intuitively feels. The insane person may just react for no apparent outward reason. The genius, If he trust his hunches, might work under the assumption this is true. Now he needs to figure out the logic. He may ask questions to gather recon or talk to the person, until you begin to formulate the solution. Now he sees to have genius perception.

A musical genius may hear a tune in their head. If you trust your instincts with this, you build the song (solution).

chimpkin
03-29-11, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by chimpkin
Nah, but at least the people here can spell, which does make the members mostly better than some places on the 'net.

that was lame because not every forum has a fusion of misspellers. besides, one can spout nonsense even with perfect grammar and spelling. if you don't believe me, read a bible commentary or get a clue perhaps.

(a) Was agreeing with you
(b) Either you don't get my sense of humor or you don't like it
(c) Are we miscommunicating again?:facepalm:

birch
03-29-11, 06:01 PM
(a) Was agreeing with you
(b) Either you don't get my sense of humor or you don't like it
(c) Are we miscommunicating again?:facepalm:

yeah, i totally used an incorrect word. it should have been 'profusion'.

birch
03-29-11, 06:06 PM
As an analogous example, say you met someone you didn't like, but can't explain why this is the case. The unconscious did the data crunching and came to that conclusion which the person intuitively feels. The insane person may just react for no apparent outward reason. The genius, If he trust his hunches, might work under the assumption this is true. Now he needs to figure out the logic. He may ask questions to gather recon or talk to the person, until you begin to formulate the solution. Now he sees to have genius perception.

a lot of people do this. this is an intelligence that is using every means of senses to gather and understand info. we tend to think of genius as something that is rare. i think that is why we call them geniuses but it's not always easy to quantify especially in a physically oriented world so we are rather practical about it.

we could say that there are a lot of people who pick up on things which we may right now call them crackpots which some may be and some may not. in the future, their hunches or ideas may turn out to be true.

lambda orionis
04-03-11, 05:29 AM
my IQ is 165 but im retarted lol

Absane
04-03-11, 09:14 AM
my IQ is 165 but im retarted lol

I'd bet on the latter.


this is true. how many unknown people exist in the world where their situation probibits them from developing their full potential?

That's where "unlearning" is necessary. The public school system (among other systems) is designed to produce average people capable of following directions. It is a system that has helped to fuel the society economically. However, a major drawback is that it's a disservice to those geared towards the creative side. Creativity is killed when life revolves around following the rules and taking orders without question.

Having been out of school for some number of years now, I am starting to find my creative voice again. When I was a kid, I was an entrepreneur, an explorer, and very outspoken. I ran my own window cleaning business, performed magic shows, explored my neighborhood far beyond the limits of where I was allowed to go, shared all my discoveries, never knew how to keep my mouth shut, etc. But in the course of many years in school, I was put on Ritalin and reprehended for not following the rules. I came out of it being a "good citizen" of society. But, I also had a feeling of being quite dead inside. I felt scammed. When referencing my roots, it doesn't feel right to me to get out into the world and do everything a "normal" adult does. Get a 9-5, get married, have 3 kids, buy useless and unfulfilling consumer products, retire on a beach, and die with nothing to say.

wellwisher
04-03-11, 09:50 AM
If you look at an IQ test, many aspects of the test require on the fly judgements for situations where an answer could not have been memorized from previous learning. Many answers requires logic and ingenuity to get a result they may never have been seen before. Because of time and space requirements, all you need is the answer but not the solution; processing is done semi-unconsciously for the needed speed.

When genius applies itself in the real world, the same schema happens in the real world. An Einstein knows the answer with or without the solution due to the way it crystalizes out in the brain. However, those who are not wired that way, need to see the cause and effect of the solution that leads to answer so they can memorize and/or understand. The Einstein will start with the effect (solution) then find the cause. When complete, the paper is written in the cause and effect style, making many think this was how it was gone from the beginning.

A musical genius will not just copy and recite. Rather he/she will extrapolate in ways that are not already cast in stone. He may start with the riff (music answer) and then go back and write the song (solution) Once the song is complete, others wil hear it in the normal cause and effect way. The genius has to be able to go both ways; effect-cause then cause and effect. The crackpot may only be able to do effect-cause. Without the conversion to cause and effect, it appears to come out of the air crossing the line between genius and insanity.

SomethingClever
04-03-11, 11:22 AM
That concept of "unlearning" is fascinating (and sad, really)

Public schools are a complete rejection of creativity. I think this is partially the reason so many people are miserable in middle school/ high school (for other reasons, read this gem (http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html))

I am increasingly thankful for my elementary school (every Friday was devoted to various art forms)

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard, "Tim I loved reading this, BUT..."
...talk about being confined to a fit expectation of what is "normal" or "standard"-- do things your own way, with your own style, and rejection is inevitable (except by those few wise educators who see the light-- but as Paul Graham says, they are alone and swimming upstream)

I've found that college professors have a greater appreciation for a creative mind-- but not as much for creative work! That's mostly a self-inflicted wound though, I was a lemming and followed my cousins into the Communication Studies field, a major which essentially mocks the very notion of unique, original thought, and embraces complexity in things that are really quite simple.

Whereas I take pride in turning the "complicated" into the "simple", public school does precisely the opposite--- for instance, there are apparently 400 pages worth of text material on how to measure the effectiveness of a speech--- what a load of ****! I think measuring a good speech is very simple: Did it make you think and did it make you feel? What more do you really need?

In the last few months I've realized how robotic I've become-- and I am doing everything in my power to harness the creativity I had back in the day when I was truly happy, back in the day when every Friday was devoted to art.

birch
04-03-11, 05:25 PM
I'd bet on the latter.



That's where "unlearning" is necessary. The public school system (among other systems) is designed to produce average people capable of following directions. It is a system that has helped to fuel the society economically. However, a major drawback is that it's a disservice to those geared towards the creative side. Creativity is killed when life revolves around following the rules and taking orders without question.

Having been out of school for some number of years now, I am starting to find my creative voice again. When I was a kid, I was an entrepreneur, an explorer, and very outspoken. I ran my own window cleaning business, performed magic shows, explored my neighborhood far beyond the limits of where I was allowed to go, shared all my discoveries, never knew how to keep my mouth shut, etc. But in the course of many years in school, I was put on Ritalin and reprehended for not following the rules. I came out of it being a "good citizen" of society. But, I also had a feeling of being quite dead inside. I felt scammed. When referencing my roots, it doesn't feel right to me to get out into the world and do everything a "normal" adult does. Get a 9-5, get married, have 3 kids, buy useless and unfulfilling consumer products, retire on a beach, and die with nothing to say.


yes, this is very true. and there are other situations though. there are people who are surviving hand to mouth all over the globe where their talents or abilities will never develop or it will never be known. or they live in a place/time that will not recognize it.

we tend to only identify the people that are known but it's just more complicated than that.

let's use the example of michael jordan who is an amazing basketball player. i bet you two hundred years ago, he would have been a nobody. without the environment and/or medium to bring out, develop or notice the talent, it just won't be recognized and in some cases never developed. that's the same with just about any other ability.

nicholas1M7
04-03-11, 06:25 PM
my IQ is 165 but im retarted lol

Then you would be contradicting yourself. Therefore the latter must be the correct assessment.

Genius is creativity, originality, superiority. The ability to express an idea or a concept and obtain all of one's desires. To align the inner reality of the mind with the outer reality of the universe. It is the ability to see with a clarity but not necessarily with a correctiveness. This is why sciforums is home to many geniuses who are also called crackpots (we also have a few morons, you know who you are Magical Realist). It is the ability to see something in a complete and intuitive manner.

lambda orionis
04-04-11, 08:34 AM
im obviously not a retartd just joshing, I have a 165 IQ that gets used everyday just waiting for it to pay off someday and im not talking about monetary values.

Dywyddyr
04-04-11, 08:46 AM
im obviously not a retartd
:roflmao:

Nothing "obvious" about it.

Absane
04-04-11, 10:38 AM
im obviously not a retartd just joshing, I have a 165 IQ that gets used everyday just waiting for it to pay off someday and im not talking about monetary values.

Really? Waiting is your fatal mistake. You'll "wait" many lifetimes because blind luck when it comes to breakthroughs is an extreme rarity.

Though, I bet a genius such as your self already knows this better than I ever will.

I recommend that you read The Psychology of Invention in the Mathematical Field (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486201074/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=neurgutt-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0486201074). He discusses, among many things, the process involved in leading up to great ideas and why they are no random accident. True, there is a "waiting period" in the process, but it happens only after INTENSE fixation on the problem to be solved.

quinnsong
04-04-11, 03:03 PM
[[QUOTE]QUOTE=Absane;2724467]



That's where "unlearning" is necessary. The public school system (among other systems) is designed to produce average people capable of following directions. It is a system that has helped to fuel the society economically. However, a major drawback is that it's a disservice to those geared towards the creative side. Creativity is killed when life revolves around following the rules and taking orders without question.

Having been out of school for some number of years now, I am starting to find my creative voice again. When I was a kid, I was an entrepreneur, an explorer, and very outspoken. I ran my own window cleaning business, performed magic shows, explored my neighborhood far beyond the limits of where I was allowed to go, shared all my discoveries, never knew how to keep my mouth shut, etc. But in the course of many years in school, I was put on Ritalin and reprehended for not following the rules. I came out of it being a "good citizen" of society. But, I also had a feeling of being quite dead inside. I felt scammed. When referencing my roots, it doesn't feel right to me to get out into the world and do everything a "normal" adult does. Get a 9-5, get married, have 3 kids, buy useless and unfulfilling consumer products, retire on a beach, and die with nothing to say.

Absane you are spot on in your analysis! I have retained much of my creativity by not buying into the "normal" myth.

lambda orionis
04-05-11, 08:00 AM
Dywyddyr, your always so quick to put somebody down I didnt spell one word right and you jump up and down on it, you must have been abused as a child or something because you troll on this forum looking for myself and others to attack. Dont even bother responding unless you have something decent and intelligent to say, stop being an energy vampire and grow up. I work from 10PM till after 8AM then work some more on the same topic im payed for, excuse me if I spell 1 word wrong.

Dywyddyr
04-05-11, 08:16 AM
Dywyddyr, your always so quick to put somebody down I didnt spell one word right and you jump up and down on it, you must have been abused as a child or something because you troll on this forum looking for myself and others to attack. Dont even bother responding unless you have something decent and intelligent to say, stop being an energy vampire and grow up. I work from 10PM till after 8AM then work some more on the same topic im payed for, excuse me if I spell 1 word wrong.
On the contrary, not only did you spell a word incorrectly (which is a staple of your posts), but your grammar, syntax and punctuation are also abysmal. Your posts, in general, show that you are far from being a genius.
Oh, and you're also given to inane and fallacious suppositions, to wit:

you must have been abused as a child

you troll on this forum looking for myself and others to attack

stop being an energy vampire

Stryder
04-05-11, 10:25 AM
There is a saying, there is a fine line between genius and insanity. In both cases, the unconscious mind is involved doing the data crunching in the background. Genius is able to harness this, turning the output into practical reality. The unconscious mind is like the CPU of the brain, with the conscious mind like a terminal. The CPU gives output and the terminal decompresses it into a solution.

As an analogous example, say you met someone you didn't like, but can't explain why this is the case. The unconscious did the data crunching and came to that conclusion which the person intuitively feels. The insane person may just react for no apparent outward reason. The genius, If he trust his hunches, might work under the assumption this is true. Now he needs to figure out the logic. He may ask questions to gather recon or talk to the person, until you begin to formulate the solution. Now he sees to have genius perception.

A musical genius may hear a tune in their head. If you trust your instincts with this, you build the song (solution).

I think the actual term you are looking for is "sub-concious", un-concious isn't going to give much of a reaction, if any reaction at all. "sub-conciousness" exists while awake and even asleep, the simplest explanation I would give is that it's proportion of a Neural network that deals with "Prefetching" relevant data or "pre-processing", a "multitasking" process.

In some people that can prove to have an intelligence that can be observed as "Genius", their sub-conscious will take in information that other people usually miss and likely allow them to remember that information when an observation at some other time period meets a particular criteria.

It's also the main way to attempt to stimulate memory, since if you can reconstruct a scenario or meet the criteria you'll remember the name, date, or where you put your keys that is otherwise "on the tip of your tongue".

lambda orionis
04-05-11, 10:46 AM
I never once said that I was a genius, just that I have a 165 IQ. Now again this is'nt English Comp is it? I did'nt think so, like I said you just want to attack people for the little things like the way I structure a post on a thread, the things I do on the daily you would'nt have the intellectual capacity to comprehend. Like I said grow up stop attacking people for the little things and argue about something bigger and better other than how I did'nt spell retard right and how I structure a post. Nobody cares but you!!!!

Back to the main point i just ordered that book Absane so ill be reading it very soon thank you for the suggestion.

Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.

Albert Einstein

Dywyddyr
04-05-11, 10:50 AM
I never once said that I was a genius, just that I have a 165 IQ.
165 IQ just happens to be well into genius level (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=IQ%20and%20genius&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np). :rolleyes:
And the thread is about genii. Got it yet?


like I said you just want to attack people for the little things
Wrong.


the things I do on the daily you would'nt have the intellectual capacity to comprehend
Assumption.

lambda orionis
04-05-11, 10:58 AM
I am fully aware that 165 is well into the genius level and I was fully aware of that when I started making post in this thread why must you keep doing this? of course what i said about you not having the intellectual capacity to do what I do on the daily is an assumption but an assumption based on your ignorance. In which I think I am right which tends to happen alot.

Dywyddyr
04-05-11, 11:01 AM
I am fully aware that 165 is well into the genius level
Then you admit you were wrong here:

I never once said that I was a genius, just that I have a 165 IQ.
Since you admit that one is a claim of the other.


of course what i said about you not having the intellectual capacity to do what I do on the daily is an assumption but an assumption based on your ignorance.
Except that all you have to support your contention of my "ignorance" is yet another assumption.


In which I think I am right which tends to happen alot.
Not so far...

SomethingClever
04-05-11, 12:29 PM
how much faith can we put into IQ tests?
were they designed by a genius?

I'd guess that genius is more a way of thinking rather than finding correct answers--- the notion that a test accurately shows intelligence seems a bit odd, or incomplete.

NietzscheHimself
04-05-11, 01:42 PM
how much faith can we put into IQ tests?
Individually... none. It would be a terrible idea to let a test tell you your unintelligent. The reverse is the same as we would not want to expand an ego from test results alone.


were they designed by a genius?
Yes a long history of intelligent people could equal a genius. But it is just a test that resolves the standard deviation of the overall population and tells you where your test scores fall into.



I'd guess that genius is more a way of thinking rather than finding correct answers--- the notion that a test accurately shows intelligence seems a bit odd, or incomplete.
Could something truly be considered genius if it is wrong?

To be genius you must create an unseen truth.

SomethingClever
04-05-11, 01:58 PM
"to illuminate truth" ---to me, that is genius
so yes, I agree that genius does find the right answers.

Honeyb35
04-08-11, 06:03 AM
A genius is nonconformist who is considered a "madman" by the mainstream society. Only when he completes his metaphorical apotheosis of man does the said society deem him "worthy" the title of a contemporary genius.

Absane
04-08-11, 01:08 PM
how much faith can we put into IQ tests?
were they designed by a genius?

I don't think that there is, will ever be, or ever has been a genius that cares or cared about intelligence testing. Maybe there are a few, but it makes more sense for them to focus a majority of their powers on other problems. Why? For a genius to invest much of his time investigating why he's a genius (as I'm sure that's the ultimate motivation) produces nothing of real ultimate value to society as a whole. When he doesn't produce anything of the like, is he still a genius? No one in society will likely EVER care. With reference to society, he's not a genius.

On a different note...

IQ tests exist for two reasons: to help study the human brain and to study the likelihood of future success. Most of us seem to be concerned with scoring high on an IQ test to best increase our likelihood of success. However, IQ tests aren't a useful measure of success. Intelligence, by and large, is an uninteresting characteristic of a person if that person doesn't do anything with it. Intelligence goes unused (in a productive manner) everyday because many of the highly intelligent have been brainwashed into believing that their intellect alone would lead to untold amounts of success. Wrong. I know idiots that are more successful than some of the brightest kids I've known in high school. Why? Because the idiots had parents that recognized the fact that their spawn wasn't the brightest crayon in the box, so they taught the kid how to make up for it by working hard.

I used to care about IQ tests... I even used to take a lot of them. Some professional and some not... scoring anywhere from 120 to 150. What does it matter? What good does it do to know that my IQ is around 130? Maybe I'll feel better about myself than I would have if my IQ was 70. However, if my IQ was 70 maybe I'd work harder than I do currently. Maybe that's the trick, the hack to beat the game: assume that you're an idiot until you prove yourself otherwise by measure of productivity spurred on by the (almost) compulsive desire to create something. We all have something that wants to be created.

Well, shit. I was going somewhere with this, got distracted, and then forgot where I was heading to.

nicholas1M7
04-08-11, 02:41 PM
I don't think that there is, will ever be, or ever has been a genius that cares or cared about intelligence testing.

Bingo, no genius cares about intelligence testing. Period.


Maybe there are a few, but it makes more sense for them to focus a majority of their powers on other problems.

Bingo. As for the few geniuses that supposedly "care" about intelligence testing, I can tell you they don't, never, have and never will. What they do indeed care for are the mental challenges that challenge their acuity, not on where they fall in comparison to others.


Why? For a genius to invest much of his time investigating why he's a genius (as I'm sure that's the ultimate motivation)

The only purpose a true genius has for investigating his intelligence are never, have never been and will never be for selfish reasons, on the contrary, for strictly altruistic purposes, a genius will test himself in relation to others, as no genius seeks to prove themselves except for altruistic purposes.


produces nothing of real ultimate value to society as a whole. When he doesn't produce anything of the like, is he still a genius?

Yes. He is still a genius even if he sadly or unfortunately falls short of proving himself to the general public by contributing something of immense importance to further human civilization. As a genius is always familiar with their own thoughts just as a retard is, with the exception of deluded individuals, he has no need to prove himself to himself.


No one in society will likely EVER care. With reference to society, he's not a genius.


On a different note...

IQ tests exist for two reasons: to help study the human brain and to study the likelihood of future success.

Whatever they exist for is not important.


Most of us seem to be concerned with scoring high on an IQ test to best increase our likelihood of success.

Indeed.


However, IQ tests aren't a useful measure of success. Intelligence, by and large, is an uninteresting characteristic of a person if that person doesn't do anything with it.

Intelligence sans creativity and originality is bleh.


Intelligence goes unused (in a productive manner) everyday because many of the highly intelligent have been brainwashed into believing that their intellect alone would lead to untold amounts of success.

...and a brainwashed intellect is a characteristic of the highly unoriginal.


Wrong. I know idiots that are more successful than some of the brightest kids I've known in high school. Why? Because the idiots had parents that recognized the fact that their spawn wasn't the brightest crayon in the box, so they taught the kid how to make up for it by working hard.

Hard work sans creativity is harder.


I used to care about IQ tests... I even used to take a lot of them. Some professional and some not... scoring anywhere from 120 to 150.

A genius does not have an IQ score, what a genius has is creativity and originality. And sometimes, an immaculate perfection in their nature that supersedes everyone else.


What does it matter? What good does it do to know that my IQ is around 130? Maybe I'll feel better about myself than I would have if my IQ was 70.

But like you said, IQ is only good for doing intelligence tests, EQ or emotional intelligence can be sometimes considered to tower above IQ.


However, if my IQ was 70 maybe I'd work harder than I do currently. Maybe that's the trick, the hack to beat the game: assume that you're an idiot until you prove yourself otherwise by measure of productivity spurred on by the (almost) compulsive desire to create something. We all have something that wants to be created.

We all have a need for self-expression and self-discovery, the genius is capable of the former but the latter requires looking within.


Well, shit. I was going somewhere with this, got distracted, and then forgot where I was heading to.

Okay. Maybe later.

birch
04-08-11, 09:42 PM
there is a difference between ability and intelligence.

it takes more than just intelligence to be successful at everything. you also need to have ability or talent at some tasks.

i've tried waitressing and i'm terrible at it, though the same people who are good at it may have a harder time with what i find easier to do or understand etc. actually there are a lot of things that seem simple to others which are difficult for me and vice versa.

i always had an innate talent for art so in that sense if i applied myself, most could not outdo me in that department. sometimes i would wonder why a person could not tell the difference between a 2d image vs a 3d. are they dumb? not necessarily because they could be very skilled in another area.

i was also reminded of neil degrasse tyson using a tone corrector because he just cannot sing. is he an idiot in that department because he is tone deaf? perhaps to some extent.

a lot of ability is inherited which takes very little conscious cognitive effort on the part of those possessing that talent.

scheherazade
05-28-11, 12:54 AM
Hmmmmm......In large part, I have considered genius to be a person who can experience the same things as everyone around them, yet has the ability to make completely different connections and analysis from the input, an ability to communicate these perceptions, and the capacity to resist the conditioning to think otherwise.

Many children have this ability, IMO, yet society pressures us to 'conform', that we may participate in the benefits of this 'group interaction'.

To 'follow your own path' is easy to say, and much harder to accomplish.

Just my opinion.....

SomethingClever
05-28-11, 01:47 AM
Nicholas- how do you know that of which you speak?

Also, I agree that intelligence without originality is "bleh." In fact, I find it borderline intolerable.

In a world of straight lines I love me a squiggle ;)

chimpkin
05-28-11, 02:50 AM
Being original...is painful. Much better to be nice, boring, happy.

Dywyddyr
05-28-11, 02:57 AM
Nicholas- how do you know that of which you speak?
He doesn't. He just likes to make stuff up.

SomethingClever
05-28-11, 03:22 AM
He doesn't. He just likes to make stuff up.

maybe so.
I agree with just about everything he said.

Absane
05-28-11, 08:50 AM
society pressures us to 'conform', that we may participate in the benefits of this 'group interaction'.

Do you treat this as necessarily a bad thing? Conformity greatly increases one's security in society. Those that conform are very likely to make a safe and secure living for themselves and their families. The creative (loose-cannon type) isn't nearly as likely to.

keith1
05-28-11, 11:41 AM
A security blanket decays in time...it is finite.

I would suspect that only a genius can define genius.
And they haven't yet, because they spend much (or all) of their existence, in a debilitated environment, studying their surroundings, and cooking strategies to make it, as a whole, less debilitating. To maximize the "genius-nourishing factors" they wish to implement".

Perhaps a genius is one who completes their life's work (One would then have to redefine genius, to exclude many pre-mentioned occupations and disciplines).

Dying sperm don't contemplate the one sperm who finishes the course. Perhaps geniuses do not contemplate those entities which are "finite in execution of task".

Perhaps it is dangerously unwise to play a finite game--such as chess--within an infinite environment.

One would have to contemplate such moves, before making them...and not after.

scheherazade
05-31-11, 01:19 AM
Do you treat this as necessarily a bad thing? Conformity greatly increases one's security in society. Those that conform are very likely to make a safe and secure living for themselves and their families. The creative (loose-cannon type) isn't nearly as likely to.

Societies require some degree of conformity as regards individual and collective health and safety and distribution of shared/common resources, I would agree.

The type of conditioning that pits one religion against another, the political party system, the social stratification by ethnicity, financial or other discrimination, all those things which divide rather than unify or allow for tolerance of individuality within the collective are the conditioning which most of us are born into.

A recent conversation with an immigrant who moved here from a country where 'fear is genetic for us and I want my children to grow up without fear' really brought this point home for me.

As a woman, I am thankful to have been born into a country that allows me to participate in virtually all undertakings that are optional for men, and while pay equity and other gender issues are not yet totally equal, we HAVE come a long way, baby.

Capitalism still holds the aces over who gets access to education and economic opportunity and if you buck the system too vociferously, you will find yourself disenfranchised in a heartbeat.

So it is not only the immigrant for whom fear is genetic.

It's go with the flow. Be part of the bulldozer or part of the road.

Change ever comes with a price and unless we break out of this conditioning, things will not change.

Those people who are genius are the people who bring about change, in my opinion, though they are seldom recognized during their time.

Genius does not conform to the conditioned norm.

I am certainly not implying that all nonconformists are genius, merely that I consider this to be one trait. ;)

SomethingClever
06-10-11, 08:59 PM
I read somewhere that every true genius has some sort of physical abnormality.
It must have been said by a genius with some fucked up teeth :D

just kidding. anyway, check this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvCaK1_CRCo) out.

when questioning why he isn't better known, one Youtube member replied, "because if Ronald took the spotlight, no one else would stand a chance."

I think that just about sums it up.