Hello all,

Can you please tell me the awnser of following question:-

1.Cephalic phase: is the taste, smell, sight, hear or thought of any food triggers the cephalic phase.And the cephalic phase is heightened by hunger. 30 - 50% of all gastric secretions occur during the cephalic phase. Now suppose a person just taste, smell, see, hear or think of any food but don't take/consume it. What will then happen to the physiology of body? Will is assimilate/metabolize the inside food substances already present in body related to that food which is sensed? EG.; suppose a person sense(taste, smell,see, hear or think of) sugar or sweet, but don't consume it. Will it metabolize & lower blood sugar present in body or not?

Best wishes.

Now suppose a person just taste, smell, see or think of any food but don't take/consume it. What will then happen to the physiology of body? Will is assimilate/metabolize the inside food substances already present in body related to that food which is sensed?
Yes, when your body gets hungry and your blood sugar drops, your body will start metabolizing substances that are already present in your body. This is called "starvation".

First it metabolizes your fat reserves, then when those are all gone, it begins breaking down muscle tissue to use that for energy.

So yes, if you get hungry enough, your body will start digesting itself for energy.

Iris, thanks. But suppose a person is not hungry and still he sense any food, will it metabolize food substance present in body related to tasted food or not?

Furthur, will this effect be more (i.e.more secretions) in case smaller/dissolved molecules of any food is tasted insted of raw food?

Pls read the following links:-

http://distance.stcc.edu/AandP/AP/A...ion/control.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...0&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...0&dopt=Abstract

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=Ce...le+Search&meta=

In this respect I may also request you to consider & comment on:-

1. "Cephalic phase effect or Sensation effects by any stmuli in relation to the size of molecular particle i.e. if the magnitude of this " Cephalic phase effect" is dependant on the size of molecular particle or on ionic form of any stimuli/food substance?

2. Its(CPE) relation with " Starvation/fasting/ hunger/craving effect". Hunger/craving of any substance can be thought of (a) dependent on its physical/real deficiency where any substance is really deficient in body & to be compensated by actual consuming it (b) dependent on its physiological defficiency due to any physiological disorder i.e. substance is accumulated in system but can not be metabolized/assimilated due to any physiological disorder & so showing its apperant defficiency which can only be corrected by correcting the physiological disorder or temporary by supplementing/giving more & more of that substance which will also worsen the case furthur.

What triggers the pancreas to push enzymes into the duodenum?

A number of factors are involved in pancreatic secretion, and is thought to be divided into 3 phases: cephalic (brain), gastric (stomach), and intestinal. The cephalic phase contributes appx. 25% to the pancreatic response, and is controlled by the vagus nerve. The stimulants are sight, smell, taste and eating of food. The gastric phase contributes 10% to the response, and is also via vagal innervation, mainly through stomach distention as it fills with food. The remainder, some 50 – 75% is due to the intestinal phase, mediated by GI hormones (such as secretin and cholecytokinin, aka CCK), and stimulated by amino acids, fatty acids, calcium, and stomach acid. In addition, the pancreas produces a specific peptide known as pancreatic polypeptide (PP), which acts to negatively feedback on pancreatic secretion; that is, it inhibits enzyme secretion. PP is released in response to vagal nerve stimulation. This is at following link;

http://www.enzymestuff.com/digestion.htm

But suppose a person is not hungry and still he sense any food, will it metabolize food substance present in body related to tasted food or not?

Furthur, will this effect be more (i.e.more secretions) in case smaller/dissolved molecules of any food is tasted insted of raw food?
Kumar, your body is basically a big chemistry laboratory, with lots of chemical reactions going on every minute of every day. That's what keeps you alive--those chemical reactions going on in your body.

And one of the chemical reactions that takes place is the one that gives your body energy to walk around. Your body does this by digesting food. The food gets digested, the proteins and carbohydrates get processed into energy for your blood and your muscles to use to keep you alive.

Now, your body never shuts down from doing this. If your body ever stopped doing this, you would be what we call "dead".

So since your body never shuts down from doing this, it always needs a reliable fuel source, 24/7. We call this fuel source "food". If no food gets put into your body, your body doesn't simply shut down its chemical reactions and stop trying to digest food--no, what your body does is start using its own resources to get some fuel for its chemical reactions. The first place your body looks for some fuel is in its own fat. If you don't put "food" into your body, it will start burning its own fat to get fuel for its chemical reactions.

After it has used up all the fat, it will start burning its own muscle tissue to get fuel to make its chemical reactions go. It won't stop doing this. If it stops doing this, you become what we call "dead".

Now--none of this has anything to do with whether the body sees, or smells, or tastes "food". This process all keeps on going whether or not the body sees, or smells, or tastes "food". If the body isn't given "food" to use for fuel, it will start using its own fat and muscles for fuel.

It also doesn't have anything to do with whether the person is "hungry" or not--the body keeps right on with the digestive process. Your body keeps trying to digest food and send energy to itself 24/7. Always. Constantly. It never stops. It doesn't care whether you're "hungry" or not, it doesn't care whether you see or smell or taste some "food"--your body is still always working away at "digestion" and making energy to keep itself going.

Is this making sense to you? Your body is a big chemical factory that started the moment you were conceived in your mother's womb, and it won't stop until the day you die. It doesn't care whether it sees or smells or tastes "food", it doesn't care whether you're "hungry" or not--it's still going to keep right on doing those chemical processes that give it energy.

What is your point here?

Your brain cannot control the process of digestion. You cannot tell your body, "Stop trying to find and digest food." It's automatic, your body does it all by itself, it's not up to you.

Yes, the amount of digestive secretions put out by your body vary in relation to what kind of food you send down there--if you send down something really greasy, your gall bladder is going to send out more bile to help digest that fat, whereas if you eat some fat-free crackers, your gall bladder doesn't have to put out so much bile.

But what's your point?

Pls read the following links:- Three of those links do not work; they are giving me a "Cannot Find Web Page".

And your Google search link just searches for the string "Ce...le Search" which makes no sense.

Irish,

Sorry, I rewite the above links:-


http://distance.stcc.edu/AandP/AP/AP2pages/digestion/control.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3909830&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8840920&dopt=Abstract

Furthur, thanks for the detais. It is ok that body process is a continious precess. But differant sensations can effects it. But my point is bit differant. I want to know that suppose if we just sense any food or any other substance but do not consume it. Some secretions due to cephalic phase effect will be there in body. But if we don't consume then what these secretions due to cephalic phase effect will leave/create effects to the physiology of or body system?

Your links are saying that seeing or smelling food--but then not eating it--is what causes a person's insulin levels to fluctuate, and so you're wondering if this is what causes diabetes? Is that what you're getting at?

Iris, Fluctuations in insulin levels due to this effect can be one condition. Several other conditions due to other secretions by this CP effect can also be possible. Thanks for an indication that:-

" Just sensing ocasionally, regularily & severally any food or substance, can as well be a possibile cause of complication/s related to that food or substance due to Cephalic Phase effect apart from its possible treatment".

I think I can save everybody a lot of time and frustration by a short explanation:

Kumar has conceived the private theory that this CPE effect is not just something that happens in some specific cases, but is a universal effect which can explain how homeopathic and tissue salt remedies function. Kumar is a homeopathic practitioner who also uses tissue salts (go figure :bugeye: ).

The theory is completely unfounded, lacks internal logic, and contradicts the homeopathic paradigm. This has been pointed out to Kumar on at least two other skeptic sites and at least one homeopathic site, but apparantly he just keeps pasting his questions everywhere hoping somebody will provide some straw he can cling to.

Just to sum up (in hopes of saving everybody some time and frustration):

Lack of foundation:
The fact that certain normal body functions are activated on the mere expectation of something, like metabolism on the expectaion of food, does in no way justify the assumption that there exists a universal effect that will activate some body function on any substance, without any substance being actually assimilated.

Lack of inner logic:
Homeopathic medicines ARE actually ingested, so the non-presence idea is based on the assumption that there is no no active substance in them, but then how can it be sensed?

Incompatibility with homeopathic paradigm:
Hoemopahty's central axiom is that like cures like. Thus, a medicine that gives a certain symptom profile cures an ailment with the same symptom profile. However, the known CPE effects work on things that oppose the symptom profile, like food <> hunger.

I am a little sorry for my apparantly harsh attitude towards Kumar, but it is the result of going through these discussions with him elsewhere, repeatedly, without apparant effect.

Maybe you will have more luck here:rolleyes:.

Hans

MRC_Hans
Skeptic (662 posts)

Few people are just skeptic, nothing else, no contribution but only destruction/trolling. Let us understand it. We are quite educated & so no irrelevant teaching with vested interests is needed here. All or any concept or system, if it is still existing in mass & well distributed public may be looked into--till it is proved or dead in itself. It is just a duty of science/scientist. All things are not yet researched in ABSOLUTE, no one can say what can come new tommorow. Just a candle light hope & small efforts may make us & our children comfortable then nothing illogical & unjustfied to carry on. It is all up to you.
Best wishes.

Your links are saying that seeing or smelling food--but then not eating it--is what causes a person's insulin levels to fluctuate, and so you're wondering if this is what causes diabetes? Is that what you're getting at?

To cause type II diabetes, the insulin levels would have to be continuously high for long periods so I can't possibly imagine a cephalic effect on diabetes risk.

Hello John,

What about habitual occasional eater? Can these type of person become diabetics? Does herditory factor of diabetes makes a person a habitual occasional eater in pre-diabetes stages?

I think CP effect without consumption can not be a reason of type2 diabetes. On the contrary it may act as bit curative. But occasional habitual eating can be a reason.

Hello John,

What about habitual occasional eater? Can these type of person become diabetics? Does herditory factor of diabetes makes a person a habitual occasional eater in pre-diabetes stages?

Not really. To become insulin resistant, u would need elevated insulin levels for quite a long time until the pancreas shuts down. I am sure this time will vary between people (which have different pancreatic powers) but occasional binging will not cause diabetes in most people. It would have ato be a bad diet over weeks and months.

Not really. To become insulin resistant, u would need elevated insulin levels for quite a long time until the pancreas shuts down.

Is it sure that insulin resistence is caused by elevated insulin levels for quite a long time? I previously debated of this since I noted that discontinuing of insulin for some time may improve IR condition(as fasting type effect). But no one tried to understand & agreed.

It is one of the main causes of insulin resistance. It is of courese caused by continually high blood sugar levels. Discontinuing insulin will improve IR of course because there are no more elevated insulin levels anymore! Thats what i've already said!

It is one of the main causes of insulin resistance. It is of courese caused by continually high blood sugar levels. Discontinuing insulin will improve IR of course because there are no more elevated insulin levels anymore! Thats what i've already said! John, thanks for information. It indicate that discontinuing/lowering of oral medicines for enhancing insulin secretion or injected insulin(any how reducing insulin level) for some time, in case of type2 diabetes with insulin resistance condition--will benefit IR & blood sugar control. It also indicates that diet/excercise can also effect insulin levels & so IR. Some medicines like metformin, however may benefits in IR. It is quite logical but doctors don't consider & practice this concept. I previously asked ADA about weight loss, weight stay constant or gain weight in diabetes patients. They just told that it depend on insulin. Weight loss means low/no insulin, weight constant means proper insulin, weght gain mean excess insulin working. But this can include both natural secretion and/or by medications. Central obesity is also linked to IR. But the main problem here is how to take risk by discontinuing/lowering of medications?

Weight loss means low/no insulin, weight constant means proper insulin, weght gain mean excess insulin working.

No, it means excess insulin that is NOT working. If it was working u would be in a state of insulin sensitivity but insulin resistance is when it does not work anymore. Insulin promotes growth and anabolic actions.

John,

In this respect--can weight loss is possible in case of insulin resistance?

No. Insulin resistance means that insulin isn't working remember? Insulin promotes growth and increases metabolism etc. Without insulin working properly, the body kind of shuts down and stores fat and slows metabolism. This is why obese people are generally considered to have insulin problems.

How then people with diabetes looses weight, stay constant or gain weight? I have seen that people who first recognized as diabetic & people on medication &/or injected insulin shown this tendency?

Remember, diabetes is a bad thing. Insulin resistance is a bad thing. Obesity is a bada thing. They are all linked. When insulin doesn't work (if u are not producing enough or are resistant to it) then u will gain weight. If u inject urself with insulin then u will lose weight (a very simple description just for u :) )

When insulin doesn't work (if u are not producing enough or are resistant to it) then u will gain weight. If u inject urself with insulin then u will lose weight (a very simple description just for u :) ) John, sorry, but is it not bit contradictory?

Insulin shortage: means we are neither producing the required quantity nor enhancing it or taking it as injected insulin.

Insulin Resistance: Insulin is not working properly(may be due to its excess quantity present) inspite it is present in proper/excess quantity either secreted or by injected insulin.

Will we not loose weight, only in case of Insulin shortage? Moreover, the gain in weight can also be due to gain of water not just fats.

John, sorry, but is it not bit contradictory?

Not really!

Insulin shortage: means we are neither producing the required quantity nor enhancing it or taking it as injected insulin.

Yes.

Insulin Resistance: Insulin is not working properly(may be due to its excess quantity present) inspite it is present in proper/excess quantity either secreted or by injected insulin.

Ur having trouble understanding what resistance is. When there is continually high insulin levels in the body, cells change so that insulin is not effective anymore (because there was way too much in the first place). Sometimes the body over does this and any of the normal levels of insulin just won't work. This is where u need an injection on top of the body's insulin to get the cells to respond to insulin again.

Will we not loose weight, only in case of Insulin shortage?

We will lose weight whenever insulin is working (to put it simply).

Moreover, the gain in weight can also be due to gain of water not just fats.

No. Insulin does not affect water content of cells.

John, these are expert comments:

""There are only 2 types of diabetes as you have stated. Most people with type 2 either gain weight or stay the same. Weight loss occurs with decreased calories or increased exercise. If someone is dignosed with type 2 and losses weight without trying one must consider that the person actually has type 1 diabetes. I hope that this helps.""

In reply to question:-

"It is seen than diabetics are only classified for two
types i.e.Type I & Type II. But in Type II some people gain weight
and other looses the same during the same period after the first
finding. So how we can classify these two factors. I feel as
under;

Type II(a) (Weight not loosing or gaining); Diabetes with Hypergly
Insulin Resistance & Hyperinsulinemia.

Type II(b) (Weight Loosing); Diabetes with Hyperglycemia and
Hypoinsulinemia.

Since,Hyperglycemia (too much glucose in the blood) and
hyperinsulinemia (too much insulin in the blood) in a fasting
individual indicates a person may have insulin resistance they may
be of Type II(a) as described by me and this condition should be
able to reverse on ractifying the Insulin resistanc only and so
should not be at all called a diabetic disease.

Can you please comment and clarify this aspect."

Actually I just read that a lack of insulin also prevents the development of fatty deposits in the body and fatty acids are excreted in the urine (which is why diabetes patients are prone to kidney disease etc.). It IS possible to "falsely control weight" through insulin!

John, I think you considered weight gain when insulin is not working/not there in consideration of excess sugar is converted in fats & weght loss when insulin is working because sugar will not convert into fats. Is it ok? However I am finding some connection of unintentional quick weight gain or loss with partial metabolism of carbohydrates which may show oedma ( pitting type) in legs (pre-tibial type). Will partial metabolized carbs. not hold/retain water (end product of carbs metabolism is CO2 & water).

John, I think you considered weight gain when insulin is not working/not there in consideration of excess sugar is converted in fats & weght loss when insulin is working because sugar will not convert into fats.

Actually I do not believe that much of the sugar is converted into fat but it actually stays in the blood stream leading to hyperglycaemia. Fats are mainly formed by another insulin-related process.

However I am finding some connection of unintentional quick weight gain or loss with partial metabolism of carbohydrates which may show oedma ( pitting type) in legs (pre-tibial type). Will partial metabolized carbs. not hold/retain water (end product of carbs metabolism is CO2 & water).

Can u explain what partial carb metabolism is? Also is it weight gain or weight loss? One process cannot account for both. There is obviously something else affecting it.

I can't say exactly but I doubt that gulucose matobolism may somewhere resist at at pyruvate level OR at its Anaerobic glycolysis point where pyruvate is reduced to a compound called lactate. This single reaction occurs in the absence of oxygen (anaerobically) and is ideally suited to utilisation in heavily exercising muscle where oxygen supply is often insufficient to meet the demands of aerobic metabolism. Oxygen defficiency seems to play an important role in lactate or pyruvate accumulation. Non conversion of gulucose into its final metabolism level i.e. CO2 & water seems to be a reason of unintentional quick weight gain & fluid retention. BY quick weight loss I mean that, if this condition is corrected & if gulucose is completely metabolized then the quick weight loss can be possible if fluid (lactate or pyruvate) is already accumulated in system. I think body system tries to hold partial metabolized gulucose in certain quantity.

But unless there was water retention or some other process, I can't imagine glucose stroage leading to significant weight gain! Also, isn't it impossible to store glucose? The reason we use fat and breakdown muscle in starvation times? Isn't excess glucose excreted?

In some uncontrolled diabetic patients, BS level can still remains high inspite they loose heavily in urine. It may mean that body system holds some sugar with water in its partial metabolized state. It may be a normal process or due to imbalance in available insulin( natural or medicated). We can just assume that whether body tries to hold partial metabolized gulucose due to excess insulin present but not used due to IR. You know sometimes health clubs do technoques which causes quick weght loss. I think it can be due to just water loss(not fats as it may take long time). Pls also tries to relate excess insulin(may be by medication) as a reason for above type of water/gulucose retention. Don't a person looses sugar in urine more heavily in non medicated times?

When u lose more sugar in urine in non-medicated times, this means that the blood level is too high. When u inject insulin, the sugar is taken into cells and used, the blood level returns to normal and there is no loss in urine.

It is ok, but do we lose all excess sugar in urine in non-medicated times or some excess sugar after keeping somewhat higher blood gulucose? Is it not noted that BS do not increase continiously & cease to increase furthur at some point in non-medicated diabetic patients? Btw, is there any relation of weight change & sugar is taken into cells and used OR sugar is not taken into cells and not used but accumulated or lost in urine?

Glucose is only partially released in the urine when it becomes excessively high. At this stage is it almost certain u have diabetes. Other times it can rise (and might contribute to diabetes later) but is not excreted.
I would imagine that sugar which is stored HAS to be stored in fatty cells so some weight gain asoociated with increased fat should occur.

Does it not indicate that our body tends to hold a certain(fixed or variable?) higher level of sugar in system & releases in urine which is higher than this level? It is mentioned that when insulin do not work or short-- it create a starvation type effect which leads to body using fats in place of sugar. What do you mean by stored in fatty cells?

Does it not indicate that our body tends to hold a certain(fixed or variable?) higher level of sugar in system & releases in urine which is higher than this level?

Yes, the state of this higher level is called hyperglycaemia.

It is mentioned that when insulin do not work or short-- it create a starvation type effect which leads to body using fats in place of sugar.

There is definitely a starvation type effect but Im not so sure about breaking down fats instead. Maybe u could be right however.

What do you mean by stored in fatty cells?

Fatty cells constitute adipose tissue.

Hypoglycaemia is said to encourage pepsin & so stomach acid. It is just like a fasting effect. However when a diabetic patient who can not either use insulin properly or short of it-- can get higher levels of stomach acidity most of the times leading to eat again and again. Do you know it it is ok or not?

Btw, you have any idea-- whether imbalances in stomach acidity or intestinal alkalinty can effect blood pH?

Hypoglycaemia is said to encourage pepsin & so stomach acid. It is just like a fasting effect. However when a diabetic patient who can not either use insulin properly or short of it-- can get higher levels of stomach acidity most of the times leading to eat again and again. Do you know it it is ok or not?

Hypoglycaemia is not Hyperglycaemia. It is the opposite.

Btw, you have any idea-- whether imbalances in stomach acidity or intestinal alkalinty can effect blood pH?

I have no idea really :)

It is ok. Actually it was other question. I read that while doing stomach acid test, stomach acid/pepsin secretion is enhanced by giving insulin>>> a fasting type/hypo...effect.

"Another test involves insulin-induced hypoglycemia. Enough insulin is given subcutaneously or intravenously to cause the blood sugar to decrease, which causes the vagus nerve to stimulate the release of gastrin. After a short time, the stomach contents are removed and analyzed."
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003883.htm

And I'm sure that overall, the person will feel hungry as his/her brain will receive signals from the stomach nerves.

Can we now say that insulin induced stomach acidity may make a person feel hungry? A person on diabetic medications may feel hungry again & again in relation to effect of medications induced insulin? However, a person with low level of insulin ( natural or induced), otherwise, can get low stomach acid & so can feel loss of hunger. Does it look logical?

Its not stomach acid alone which promotes hunger but the chain reaction induced by the insulin hormone. One could als call it a hunger hormone if u will :D

But will it be ok that higher level of insulin ( induced or natural) will promote hunger wheras lower level will discourage it?

Yes I would imagine so since insulin encourages the body to use up its glucose supplies.

Don't we then increase the hunger & so obesity by induced insulin? Is it not a good indication that when a diabetic patient feel hunger again & again--he may be having excess insulin. Is it correct to prescribe for induced insulin when a patient is having insulin resistance/excess insulin but not used? I think excess weight/obesity should be an indication of excess insulin but not used & so measures to correct IR may only be just sufficient.

Don't we then increase the hunger & so obesity by induced insulin? Is it not a good indication that when a diabetic patient feel hunger again & again--he may be having excess insulin.

Its not that siple since insulin still works to increase the bodys metabolism and people with very low insulin levels can actually gain fat if they eat the same food contrary to popular belief!

Is it correct to prescribe for induced insulin when a patient is having insulin resistance/excess insulin but not used?

It is commonly done but not the correct way of dealing with it really. Type II diabetes should be treated at the resistance stage by such means as lowering blood glucose and by taking special drugs which increase sensitivity.

I think excess weight/obesity should be an indication of excess insulin but not used & so measures to correct IR may only be just sufficient.

No, as I've said, it might indicate the opposite!

Its not that siple since insulin still works to increase the bodys metabolism and people with very low insulin levels can actually gain fat if they eat the same food contrary to popular belief!

Do you mean to say that:

1. Very low level of insulin>> gain fat>> weight gain

2. High level of insulin >> IR >> High blood sugar>> lose sugar in urine>>weight loss ( may increase also if we consider insulin being not used due to IR, therefore is at low available level)

3. High level of insulin without IR >> better sugar control>> no weight gain or lose weight.

It means proper level & proper working of insulin keeps the weght low or constant whereas its low or excess levels with improper use can lead to weght gain. Is it ok.

It is commonly done but not the correct way of dealing with it really. Type II diabetes should be treated at the resistance stage by such means as lowering blood glucose and by taking special drugs which increase sensitivity. Yes, it is commonly practiced. Will it not furthur complicate the IR & other diabetic complications? Is it not like an adding/aggravating pre-diabetic condition?

Do you mean to say that:

1. Very low level of insulin>> gain fat>> weight gain

2. High level of insulin >> IR >> High blood sugar>> lose sugar in urine>>weight loss ( may increase also if we consider insulin being not used due to IR, therefore is at low available level)

3. High level of insulin without IR >> better sugar control>> no weight gain or lose weight.

It means proper level & proper working of insulin keeps the weght low or constant whereas its low or excess levels with improper use can lead to weght gain. Is it ok.


Pretty much, except in number 3, it is almost impossible to have high levels of insulin without developing IR after some time :)

Yes, it is commonly practiced. Will it not furthur complicate the IR & other diabetic complications? Is it not like an adding/aggravating pre-diabetic condition?

No, because pre-diabetics shouldn't be taking insulin. U should take it only when u need to. I do think it will cause a vicious circle at some stage though and the real problem needs to be addressed.

John, don't you find something fishy in prescribing insulin/insulin enhancing medicines to persons who tends to get IR before or after medications? Btw, if anyone on medications, has persistant high BS with IR symptoms--can/should he sometimes discontinue the medication for better control or not?

Like I said, there is no way a Dr. will prescribe insulin for people who don't have IR already.

It is not advisable to dicontinue insulin when u have IR without taking other appropriate measures to counteract it first!

It is ok, but to continue induced higher insulin levels is also very dangerous. You said that in case of very low level of actual insulin or available insulin(due to IR)--it will lead to fat gain. Fat gain can lead to CV & heart diseases as in hyperinsulinemia. It is ,therefore, very important to monotor & maintain proper level of insulin in blood as its both sides will be dangerous. It also looks that persistance or uncontrol of BS & high lipids can mostly be due to excess insulin/IR in blood.

It is ok, but to continue induced higher insulin levels is also very dangerous.

There is nothing directly wrong per se with high levels of insulin! (but lets not get started on anti-ageing theories just yet) :D

You said that in case of very low level of actual insulin or available insulin(due to IR)--it will lead to fat gain.

It is easier to just say: very low levels of available insulin :)

Fat gain can lead to CV & heart diseases as in hyperinsulinemia. It is ,therefore, very important to monotor & maintain proper level of insulin in blood as its both sides will be dangerous. It also looks that persistance or uncontrol of BS & high lipids can mostly be due to excess insulin/IR in blood.

Fat gain can be caused by low available insulin but diet is important too. It is not a simple loop as I've already said.

There is nothing directly wrong per se with high levels of insulin! (but lets not get started on anti-ageing theories just yet) :D But will it not lead to insulin resistance.



It is easier to just say: very low levels of available insulin :)

I mean very low levels of available insulin due to insulin resistance.

Fat gain can be caused by low available insulin but diet is important too. It is not a simple loop as I've already said. It is ok, diet is another consideration. But we are discussing here just diabetic conditions. Will low available insulin due to IR not lead to fat/lipids gain>>central obesity>>HBP>>CV/heart diseases. It can be just a case of Syndrome X or hyperinsulinemia.

But will it not lead to insulin resistance.

Yes indirectly it is dangerous as it causes IR but insulin is not toxic or anything. People with low susceptibility to IR have nothing ot fear about slightly higher insulin levels.

I mean very low levels of available insulin due to insulin resistance.

The only thing that is dangerous is availability of insulin. There aren't TWO dangers here, know what I mean?

It is ok, diet is another consideration. But we are discussing here just diabetic conditions. Will low available insulin due to IR not lead to fat/lipids gain>>central obesity>>HBP>>CV/heart diseases. It can be just a case of Syndrome X or hyperinsulinemia.

Like I said, insulin increases metabolism but makes u hungry. Food is the important factor :)

Yes, I got the point about low availability of insulin. :) But there can be other danger if insulin could not be used properly due to IR ( means it is available low to the system due to IR). Btw, can the excess insulin if present in blood due to IR--will also make a person hungry & enhance pepsin & stomach acid secretion?

Yes, I got the point about low availability of insulin. :) But there can be other danger if insulin could not be used properly due to IR ( means it is available low to the system due to IR).

No, don't u see that thats low availability too?! U just said it yourself!

Btw, can the excess insulin if present in blood due to IR--will also make a person hungry & enhance pepsin & stomach acid secretion?

No, like I said, there is nothing wrong with insulin itself. It is merely a harmless messenger hormone which cannot affect the body by being in the blood alone.

No, don't u see that thats low availability too?! U just said it yourself!
No, like I said, there is nothing wrong with insulin itself. It is merely a harmless messenger hormone which cannot affect the body by being in the blood alone. John, sorry I could not understand your replies. Can you bit clear it for me.

Furthur there is another point: whether so called insulin resistance is due to excess exposure of insulin to the target cells or due to excess exposure of gulucose to the cells? I mean what trigger the cells to cause IR condition?

John, sorry I could not understand your replies. Can you bit clear it for me.

Furthur there is another point: whether so called insulin resistance is due to excess exposure of insulin to the target cells or due to excess exposure of gulucose to the cells? I mean what trigger the cells to cause IR condition?

The hormone insulin is benign. it cannot do anything in the blood stream. It must get into cells to exert its effect. IR is where it can't do this.

IR is caused by over exposure with insulin. Insulin levels depend on glucose levels. Is that clearer? Now u can formulate some more mad ideas :D

The hormone insulin is benign. it cannot do anything in the blood stream. It must get into cells to exert its effect. IR is where it can't do this.

Sorry to make you :D. But wouldn't higher insulin in blood will increase pepsin & so stomach acidity level leading to hunger?

IR is caused by over exposure with insulin. Insulin levels depend on glucose levels. Is that clearer? Now u can formulate some more mad ideas :D It is bit confusing because if IR is caused by over exposure with insulin in blood then the whole prescription for insulin enhancement by oral medicines & injected insulin to diabetic patients with IR will become bit doubtful. We may have to check it by diet reduction and induced insulin reduction esp. in IDDM patients with IR.

Blood glucose levels are regulated by several hormones ~ Insulin, Glucagon, Epinephrine, Cortisol, and Growth hormone. Insulin promotes Glycogen synthesis, fat storage in the form of Triglycerides, and cellular uptake of blood glucose. Glucagon, Epinephrine, Cortisol, and Growth hormone all cause Glycogen breakdown and stimulate conversion of Amino acids to glucose. Persistent elevations of these hormones can lead to hyperglycemia (high blood sugar.) Glucagon breaks down Liver Glycogen stores to release glucose into the blood stream and it prevents the normal storage of extra glucose into Glycogen and Triglycerides. Glucagon has no effect on Muscle Glycogen. Epinephrine is very important during times of stress, including acute illnesses/infections, trauma etc. It causes increased glucose levels in the blood stream to ensure adequate glucose reaches brain cells. It stimulates the breakdown of muscle glycogen to raise blood glucose.

John, can it also be possible that some patients declared as diabetic due to insulin defeciency (common), may actually gets high BS by defects of fat store conversion, Glucagon, Epinephrine, Cortisol, and Growth hormone? Persistance high BS & weight loss can be due to these defects. IS it right?

Sorry to make you :D. But wouldn't higher insulin in blood will increase pepsin & so stomach acidity level leading to hunger?

I just told u, it is harmless in the bloodstream if it is not biologically available!

It is bit confusing because if IR is caused by over exposure with insulin in blood then the whole prescription for insulin enhancement by oral medicines & injected insulin to diabetic patients with IR will become bit doubtful. We may have to check it by diet reduction and induced insulin reduction esp. in IDDM patients with IR.

Its definitely a doubtful method but insulin shouldn't be reduced quickley or they would die. Insulin sensitivity must be regained somehow.

John, can it also be possible that some patients declared as diabetic due to insulin defeciency (common), may actually gets high BS by defects of fat store conversion, Glucagon, Epinephrine, Cortisol, and Growth hormone? Persistance high BS & weight loss can be due to these defects. IS it right?

I can't see how those defects could be linked to insulin deficiency though :confused:

I mean secondary diabetis: means high BS is caused by other reasons than insulin deficiency. Btw, In insulin resistance cases: Do the excess insulin works/utilized properly/fully for storing the excess glucose as glucogen & fats? If sugar in urine is a balance of sugar after it is used or stored & which can't be utilized due to no insulin left?

I mean secondary diabetis: means high BS is caused by other reasons than insulin deficiency.

ALL diabetes is caused by the more important term: insulin unavailability.

Btw, In insulin resistance cases: Do the excess insulin works/utilized properly/fully for storing the excess glucose as glucogen & fats?

In IR, the excess insulin cannot do anything like I have said!

If sugar in urine is a balance of sugar after it is used or stored & which can't be utilized due to no insulin left?

Sugar in the urine is not a normal thing since we should be able to make use of it all. When it happens, it could be a result of insulin unavailability all right :)

In IR, the excess insulin cannot do anything like I have said!

How then diabetes patient with IR gain weight/become obese? Does the insulin not required for conversion of Sugar into fats? I think insulin which can not be used for sugar metabolism due to IR, might be used for conversion into fat stores. However if there is no insulin then excess sugar can't be stored as fats & so will be excreted in urine. Is it ok.

Ref: Insulin resistance
When your cells are exposed to insulin at all, they get a little bit more resistant to it. So the pancreas just puts out more insulin. Cells become insulin resistant because they are trying to protect themselves from the toxic effects of high insulin. They down-regulate their receptor activity and number of receptors so that they don't have to be subjected to all that stimuli all the time.

Different cells respond to insulin differently. Some cells are more resistant than others, as some cells are incapable of becoming very resistant. The liver becomes resistant first, followed by the muscle tissue and lastly the fats. As all these major tissues, become insulin resistant your pancreas is putting out more insulin to compensate. Any time your cell is exposed to insulin it is going to become more insulin resistant.

...6. Increased weight and fat storage. For most people, too much weight is too much fat. In males, a large abdomen is the more obvious and earliest sign of Insulin Resistance. In females, it's prominent buttocks.

7. Increased triglycerides. High triglycerides in the blood are often found in overweight persons. But even those who are not overweight may have stores of fat in their arteries as a result of Insulin Resistance.

These triglycerides are the direct result of carbohydrates in the diet being converted by insulin... http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/insulin.htm

How then diabetes patient with IR gain weight/become obese? Does the insulin not required for conversion of Sugar into fats?

Ref: http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/insulin.htm

No, insulin is for energy production from glucose.

I think insulin which can not be used for sugar metabolism due to IR, might be used for conversion into fat stores.

This is right.

However if there is no insulin then excess sugar can't be stored as fats & so will be excreted in urine. Is it ok.

Some fat formation will ocuur but some of it will be excreted in the urine. The formation of fat (lipogenesis) is not simple however and the unavailability of insulin leads to a cascade of reactions which eventually increase abdominal obesity.

Insulin resistance is associated with being overweight and inactive. Losing 5-10 percent of weight, or becoming active, helps to alleviate the resistance. Many people who are insulin-resistant also have "Syndrome X."

Syndrome X is a termed coined by Dr. Gerald Reaven of Stanford University to describe a group of symptoms including high blood pressure, abdominal obesity, glucose intolerance and high levels of blood fats (primarily triglycerides and low HDL or "good" lipoproteins).

Another thought: when IR patients can't burn the sugar & so stored as fats--Is it not that this storing of fats is responsible for all abovementioned problems of Syndrome X. However when fat are also become IR then a person may lose weight inspite of excess insulin--& may be excess lipids thus converted due to IR.

No, insulin is for energy production from glucose.

This is right. John sorry, but are these two replies are not bit contradictory?

Another thought: when IR patients can't burn the sugar & so stored as fats--Is it not that this storing of fats is responsible for all abovementioned problems of Syndrome X.

well at least its responsible for abdominal obesity.

However when fat are also become IR then a person may lose weight inspite of excess insulin--& may be excess lipids thus converted due to IR.

Don't really understand what your trying to say here!

John sorry, but are these two replies are not bit contradictory?

Sorry, I had another look at that post again and I was wrong when I said "that is right"! I thought u were saying something else in that post. Insulin cannot do anything in a situation of IR.

Don't really understand what your trying to say here!
Sorry, I had another look at that post again and I was wrong when I said "that is right"! I thought u were saying something else in that post. Insulin cannot do anything in a situation of IR.
Pls just reconsider it in view of following quote:-

Different cells respond to insulin differently. Some cells are more resistant than others, as some cells are incapable of becoming very resistant. The liver becomes resistant first, followed by the muscle tissue and lastly the fats.

Normal health:-

carbs>>gulucose>>cells absorb with insulin>>extra stored as fats>>weight increase>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

Abnormal health (diabetes with IR):-

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> extra stored as fats as not yet resistant>>weight increase>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> extra stored partially or nothing as fats as become insulin resistant>>weight constant>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may not absorb/burn even partially with some insulin being cells are fully IR>> extra not stored as fats also become insulin resistant>>body uses previous store of fats for energy>>weight loss>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

Protein cycle may start thereafter. Is it ok. Do you have any idea about protein cycle in diabetes?

Normal health:

carbs>>gulucose>>cells absorb with insulin>>extra stored as fats>>weight increase>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.



This is my correction:

carbs>>gulucose>>cells absorb with insulin>>(little) extra stored as fats>>(slight or no) weight increase

Abnormal health (diabetes with IR):-

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> extra stored as fats as not yet resistant>>weight increase>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> extra stored partially or nothing as fats as become insulin resistant>>weight constant>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

This is what i think happens (just 1 scenario):

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may absorb/burn partially with some insulin being cells are IR>> abdominal obesity increases>>peripheral fat might actually decrease as energy MUST be supplied to cells

p.s. I have never heard of insulin in the urine or testing for it!

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may not absorb/burn even partially with some insulin being cells are fully IR>> extra not stored as fats also become insulin resistant>>body uses previous store of fats for energy>>weight loss>>still extra/no insulin excreted in urine.

Finally:

carbs>>gulucose>>cell may not absorb/burn even partially with some insulin being cells are fully IR>>cellular need for energy over-rides abdominal lipogenesis>>body uses previous store of fats for energy (including abdominal)>>weight loss

Protein cycle may start thereafter.

No, protein cycle starts much sooner. Actually happens at about the same time as the fat mobilization!

Is it ok. Do you have any idea about protein cycle in diabetes?

Ask me!

John, thanks. "still extra/no insulin excreted in urine. " by it I mean gulucose still extra & without insulin can be excreted(sugar not insulin) in urine.

I just want to know if extra carbs are also stored as protein & if insulin is needed for making that store of protein? Is it correct that differant cells like liver, muscles & fats have differant resistances to insulin as I mentioned above? If it is so then why IR for fats is not seprately mentioned?

I just want to know if extra carbs are also stored as protein & if insulin is needed for making that store of protein?

To my knowledge: No, to both of the above.

Is it correct that differant cells like liver, muscles & fats have differant resistances to insulin as I mentioned above? If it is so then why IR for fats is not seprately mentioned?

Not too sure about this. I don't think there has been any researh into this but maybe there should be!

John, yes it is most important to understand all body processes from conversion of carbs to gulucose its uses & stores. We may be bit missing for liver, fats & protein(if there) IR & then their revese orders on complicating the diabetes conditions. I think it happens. Lactic acidosis or just acidosis, Ketoacidosis & Uremia acidosis seems to be related to carbs, fats, protien reverse utilization for energy.

Do you have any idea that: how a diabetic patient with uncontrolled & high BS since long, taking much diabetic medications/insulin for enhancing the insulin-- suddenly finds that his BS is well controlled or low with same medications/insulin & same diet & excercise? Acordingly he may have to substancially cut the medication programe & then also he experiances control/low sugar levels? However he may experiance bit low hunger, changed mouth tastes, changed food types, motions clear/loose in place of habitual constipation. I think it happens with most of patients at some later date. I am bit suspicious that it is due to some change in GI tract environment from acidic to bilous or alkaline? Can you comment on this please?

..bile salts are mediators in the regulation of hepatic lipogenesis and adaptive thermogenesis. These effects should be explored to correct hypertriglyceridemia, diet-induced obesity and insulin resistance.http://www.wissenschaft-online.de/gbm/mosbach04/homepage/abstract_detail.php?artikel_id=494

Kumar, there is so much going on the body and so many things are linked that we seem to only have a glimpse of some of these links. We are a long way off finding out the complete metabolic pathways of the human body.
Although I know quite a lot about basic metabolism, I am not an expert on bile salts but when u think about it, most everything should be linked back to what u consume. Food, nutrients and drugs are the things which cause imbalances and changes to our internal system and very few other things have this cause. U talk about a GI tract 'environment'. This 'environment' is changed either directly or indirectly through what we consume.

This 'environment' is changed either directly or indirectly through what we consume. It is right but, is it not true that our every or most disorders effects our GI tract environment, which may have some relation to all or most of our disorders? It may be related to the basic problem or a root cause & to our constitutional & heriditory problems. If this could be attended first, we may, probably, avoid so many irregularities. But I do not find much symptoms of GI imbalances in the disease's symptoms & causes, commonly mentioned. Environment means it can effect everything. I feel it works both way. It effects our internal environment for what we consume & our internal environment effects it for what we should or should not consume. Is it not ok.

Can u give me some examples of disorders that u think affect the GI tract environment?

Will excess insulin, Mental stresses, infections, not trigger more secretion of stomach acidity? Just opposite, low insulin may trigger low stomach acidity or high intestinal alkaline secretions. In reverse order, high stomach acidity may trigger low insulin secretion & high alkaline secretion may trigger excess insulin secretion--for homeostatis purpose. Since GI tract environment effects digestion & absorption of all or most of body substances then in reverse order all internal imbalances in body substances should trigger change in GI tract environment to encourage or discourage its absorption. Iron, vit B12, folic acid, zinc, protiens, calcium's overload/deficiency may trigger low/high stomach acid secretions. If I am not much wrong body may control homeostatis of body substances at their digetion & absorption basic level of digestive tract by changing in acidic & alkaline secretions. Acid blokers/antacids effects digetion of various minerals.
http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/digestiveproblems/a/LowHCL.htm
http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Drug/Antacids.htm

Just think of reverse order/effects of the problems caused by imbalanced GIT environment.

Will excess insulin, Mental stresses, infections, not trigger more secretion of stomach acidity? Since GI tract environment effects digestion & absorption of all or most of body substances then in reverse order all internal imbalances in body substances should trigger change in GI tract environment to encourage or discourage its absorption. Iron, vit B12, folic acid, zinc, protiens, calcium's overload/deficiency may trigger low/high stomach acid secretions. If I am not much wrong body may control homeostatis of body substances at their digetion & absorption basic level of digestive tract by changing in acidic & alkaline secretions. Acid blokers/antacids effects digetion of various minerals.
http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/digestiveproblems/a/LowHCL.htm
http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Drug/Antacids.htm

Just think of reverse order/effects of the problems caused by imbalanced GIT environment.

OK but u see, not ALL disorders affect GI tract. Asthma for example shouldn't. Parkinsons disease isn't related to it! There are a good few disorders related to stomach secretions however.

All or any stress or infection may alter GIT environment. Lack of O2 in asthma as well as stess may cause some GIT imbalance. Parkinsons disease is also a mental stress. Moreover, The exact reason that the cells of the brain deteriorate is unknown & its some symptoms may be linked ti GIT disturbances:-

Loss of fine motor skills
Difficulty writing, may be small and illegible
Difficulty eating
Difficulty with any activity that requires small movements
Uncontrolled, slow movement
Frequent falls
Decline in intellectual function (may occur, can be severe)
A variety of gastrointestinal symptoms, mainly constipation.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000755.htm

If we study deeply, we may find the relation of GIT imbalances with all or most of the symptoms of all or most of the diseases. Digestive & repiratory systems are our most basic & prominents input systems( other senses hearing, skin sensations & visual are bit differant non physical inputs so can't be thought for physical inputs) which can be linked to root causes or basic understanding for all body systems( but not given much importance).

Actually asthma is now considered to be caused (among other things) by TOO MUCH blood O2, too little CO2 and hyperventilation etc!

Interestingly, GHIT imbalances may CAUSE asthma rather than the other way round. Stomach acid vapour is said to aggravate asthma and asthma and GERD is quite well correlated in people!

Good information. O2 & CO2 are related to Respiratory acidosis/alkaliosis. Acidosis means too much CO2 & alkaliosis means too much O2. There can be some link between stomach acidity & respiratory acidosis. I want to understand relation between GIT pH & internal pH. Do you have any idea about it? Something relevant is mentioned here:-
http://www.alkalife.com/scihealth.aspx?id=6

In a healthy individual, there should be no relationship. The stomach acid is well regulated and isolated from the blood stream. What happens when u are not healthy is mentioned in the article u gave. I don't know too much more about the subject than that really!

Ok. I am finding some indications of pacreatic bicarbonate relese/holding with control in BS in IR cases. Can any defect in relese of pancreatic juice be related to persistance of high BS in 10 year old type2 with IR case?

U might want to refer to the link I have provided Kumar. It may not answer ALL your questions but I am not too informed of the realm of the GIT. I might continue doing a bit of reading on it at some stage in the near future however as it seems quite interesting.

http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mm_geriatrics/sec13/ch102.jsp

John, thanks for much contributions. We had very interesting discussions & will furthur contribute--if some new questions are there.

Hi Kumar!

John you may get the next question when the people at the JREF board have answered this question

"What does this link indicate about GI pH & problems with liver? Ageing & diseasing may be somewhat relevant with constitutional problems. Is it so infections are more related to low stomach acid? What about fatty degeneration of liver?"

Set by Kumar with your above link.

see here
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870551349#post1870551349

Thought you may find it interesting.

PJ

Probably, some inabilities/deficiencies(pre-Dr.S) have initiated me here. Although, no harm in taking second or third opinion. John we shared much more interesting here & hope the same for future. Any problem??

In some people, particularly those with diabetes, insulin resistance syndrome, or liver disease, a genetic susceptibility to iron overload has been reported.
http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Iron.htm John, high stomach acidity can enhance iron digestion & so its more absorption.

Do you have any idea that which antacids are suitable to chronic constipated(unclear motions) persons & which to others?