Progressively through the novel we are challenged to think about society's attitude to the human condition - does society have an 'ostrich in the sand' mentality, a deliberate ignorance of the emptiness that can characterise human existence? And if so, when Caulfield begins to probe and investigate his own sense of emptiness and isolation, before finally declaring that he world is full of 'phonies' with each one out for their own phony gain, is Holden actually the one who is going insane, or is it society which has lost it's mind for failing to see the hopelessness of their own lives?Is this a truth of real life?:cool:

Sounds like an EXCELLENT book:)

Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
Sounds like an EXCELLENT book:)
It is ...but it depends from which perspective you view the truth:cool:

Or maybe Holden should just go back to listening to System of a Down and slitting his wrists like all rich brats with too much time on their hands.

Originally posted by Xev
Or maybe Holden should just go back to listening to System of a Down and slitting his wrists like all rich brats with too much time on their hands.


Finally someone gets it...Holden wasn't anything to think about...he was a rich white brat who got the best in life so he had to make misery for himself just to feel alive...Amen Xev..AMEN;)

Progressively through the novel we are challenged to think about society's attitude to the human condition - does society have an 'ostrich in the sand' mentality, a deliberate ignorance of the emptiness that can characterise human existence? And if so, when Caulfield begins to probe and investigate his own sense of emptiness and isolation, before finally declaring that he world is full of 'phonies' with each one out for their own phony gain, is Holden actually the one who is going insane, or is it society which has lost it's mind for failing to see the hopelessness of their own lives?

The loony who killed John Lennon was inspired by the book. (Saw an interview with him on CNN. He killed Lennon because he became phony...)

Sallinger meant (and means) the we are ourselves and real only as/when children. When we grow up we spoil everything. How true!

I've read the book, I enjoyed it, you can download the e-book on Kazaa although I don't know if that is legal

Originally posted by ILikeSalt
I've read the book, I enjoyed it, you can download the e-book on Kazaa although I don't know if that is legal

LOL. No, it isn't... :D

Then again, downloading games, music and movies isn't either ;)

[
Sallinger meant (and means) the we are ourselves and real only as/when children. When we grow up we spoil everything. How true! [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, from innocance to morons!;)

Originally posted by IXL777

I agree, from innocance to morons!;) [/B]


Funny...for some it is the other way around:cool:

A characteristic of the human condition or just a condition which all humans must go through to become human. Holden is trying to become a human, he discovers at the end that this lonliness, this state that he is feeling is typical to life. Then realzing that this isolation is part of what a human is. To become human one must suffer through this. It is a part of who we are. The loss of innocence that we own is natural, I believe that we all must lose our innocence to become fully human, it is what we are meant to do. Now is Holden going insane? Well at the end we see him in the mental insitution but perhaps he is just an oversensitive youth. Holden doesn't want to let his innocence leave him, but to move on in his development of becoming an adult he must and thus the conflict and the eventual resolution that we see at the end of this amazing novel.

Holden thank to much. His point was this; everyone reads way to much into crap. Even that lady on the bus who though he was Rudolf Schmidt.

And as Xev put it, he is a rich spoiled kid who never worked. He doesn't have the right to complain about anything, I'm having to work my way through college, he didn't, fuck him.

(All goth's are rich. I hate goth's.)

A characteristic of the human condition or just a condition which all humans must go through to become human. Holden is trying to become a human, he discovers at the end that this lonliness, this state that he is feeling is typical to life.

You are born human. Holden doesn't want to accept "typical life" because accepting that is a loss. He turns for help to his 5 years old sister, to show him direction which he feels is losing. Children have something which we lose while we grow up. (Clint Eastwood said about acting: its like becaming 5 years old again, you must dissolve yourself to became open to experiencing something fully again to live yourself in a very diffrent existence - or something like that...)

Just because you have money doesn't mean you can't be depressed, lonely or miserable.

I had a communications professor that had various rules for gratifying human relations, one rule was:

"Don't be so judgemental"

IXL777,

You just stole what I said. Exactly what I said. If your going to rip off my post at least be half way decent about and change some of the words around.

Well wait, were you quoting me? If you are then use some form of something to show that your quoting me.

Procop you have said that we are all born human, there I must disagree. My disapproval lies probably in what we define a human as. What you are saying, that we all are born human, is, at least to me ridiculous. Just because we were born doesn't make us truly human, my justification is that humans must endure relationships and the processes of life.

For example say that (I think this was actually done once) we took a newborn babe and locked it in a room, keep it alive and such. Would the babe be a human? I mean truly human, of course it was born a human, at least it had the body and all the necessary abilities to become a human but just for the reason that we're born doesn't necessarily guarentee the experiences of a human. Thats what we are in the end, after our bodies die off whats left, what made us who we are throughout our lives, what made us human?

Holden is growing older in this novel, part of him wishes to become an adult and part of him wishes to stay a child, innocent. That was my main point that losing our innocence is a natural part of growing older and should not be discouraged. In the end I'm not saying that newborn babes are not human for they very well are what I am trying to proclaim in some strange fashion is that to become a full fledged human we need the experiences througout our lives which will aid us along the way.

Well we have human genes and these are determinat for eg. our IQ. This IQ will come out even in separation. You do not have to accept that growing up includes/necessitates becoming a "phony". Sallinger wrote more books all of them basicaly proposing the idea that we "unnecessarily" change ourselves in "phonies". But he was a recluse, sort of. A comparision comes to my mind. In the WW I wounded soldiers were treated with a medicine (a cream) was put in their wounds to desinfect them. It did cure the wound but the soldiers were mutilated horribly. It came out that there was an another medicine (at that time) much softer which would cure them too without the mutilations but the doctors believed that the first medicine was more effective. You do not have to change drastically when groving up, it is not necessary, thats, I guess, what Sallinger wanted to say.

fredx:
Just because you have money doesn't mean you can't be depressed, lonely or miserable.

No, but come the fuck on - Holden could hire fucking hookers, he didn't have to be depressed or miserable.

The rich can be depressed, lonely and miserable just like the rest of us - it's just that their pain is amusing.

Coffee:
And as Xev put it, he is a rich spoiled kid who never worked. He doesn't have the right to complain about anything, I'm having to work my way through college, he didn't, fuck him.

Bingo. Why should some brat who never had to work a day in his life bore the rest of us with his whining about his lost innocence? Fuck, I never had innocence to lose and you don't see me moping around.

As Rodney Orpheus says:
Money's wasted on the rich.

Was he a goth? well I'm conflicted, goths are the biggest phonies on the planet.

But I can relate to not wanting to become an adult homo-sapien. They are horrible horrible creatures.
Why should he work? Would you join the army if you were anti-war? Well its the exact same thing.
"Working" is joining and helping the force of evil.
I don't know what he has against humans but I consider them a pest which they clearly are. I don't work for this reason. At least thats my excuse, I'm also lazy and work is hard.
I'm looking for a career that won't help society, preferably one that will hurt it. I don't know what that is yet.
I don't like humans, why am I forced to take their side in the war against the world? Why am I judged for not assisting them in devouring the planet? Oh yeah ... humans are the judges...
Well I don't care what you flesh and bone diseases think.
If it is true that the unemployed are a burden on society than perhaps that is the career I have been looking for ... how convenient :cool: *relaxes*

I'm looking for a career that won't help society, preferably one that will hurt it. I don't know what that is yet.

Have you considered a post in the goverment?

Originally posted by ProCop
Have you considered a post in the goverment?
:D I admire a person of wit!

to Xev, counsllor coffee, Seargentlard, and IXL777 and any other complainers, suit yourself.

Originally posted by fredx
to Xev, counsllor coffee, Seargentlard, and IXL777 and any other complainers, suit yourself.

To Fredx, HUH????:confused:

Originally posted by fredx
to Xev, counsllor coffee, Seargentlard, and IXL777 and any other complainers, suit yourself.

Iwasn't complaining..I was pointing out it takes , vanity,conceit arrogance and pride if you think you can answer everybody's questions.."Have a PhD?"...:cool:

Sounds like a very interesting book. I think I'll check it out.

Originally posted by thinker
Sounds like a very interesting book. I think I'll check it out.

It is..we will be glad of your comments when ypu have read it:)

Originally posted by IXL777
It is..we will be glad of your comments when ypu have read it:)

when Caulfield begins to probe and investigate his own sense of emptiness and isolation, before finally declaring that he world is full of 'phonies' with each one out for their own phony gain, is Holden actually the one who is going insane, or is it society which has lost it's mind for failing to see the hopelessness of their own lives?

I think the idiots who have been "inspired" to commit hideous acts by Catcher in the Rye were mere nitwits who were looking for affirmation on their beliefs that everyone was a "phony" and that the world was full of emptiness and hopelessness. Those idiots only saw one part of what Caulfield was experiencing and did not fully grasp his ultimate realization: there were others exempt from his broad characterization, but then Caulfield knew it all along didn't he?

Yea there exists hopelessness and emptiness in the world. And Caulfield felt alienated and the author, Salinger, meant Caulfied's "bitching" to be allegorical!

And no Salinger is not saying to become corrupted by society is to be "human". Nor does he say we must suffer through "typical life" to achieve humanity. What he is saying instead is that we humans--and yes being born makes u a human--have created a society that conforms--back to Ellison--in the worst of ways. Caulfield's sister is given as a representation of 'innocence' in the sense of that which is 'pure', that which is devoid of all the corruptness--used in a general sense -- that mars what we accept us 'typical' and some aspire to achieve. The book is a scathing look at humanity as present in modern society and when Holden looks at his sitter at the end and weeps, Salinger is crying both at how wrongly we have strayed from innocence and how rightly we have strayed from innocence.

And when u fools quote:
"http://www.tmtm.com/sides/catcher.html", GIVE DAMN THE WEBSITES CREDIT!!!!!! Plagiarizing on a site supposedly for intellectuals????????????????????????????????????? SHAMEFUL

And when u fools quote:
"http://www.tmtm.com/sides/catcher.html", GIVE DAMN THE WEBSITES CREDIT!!!!!! Plagiarizing on a site supposedly for intellectuals????????????????????????????????????? SHAMEFUL

I have never seen the site, qouted the source (CNN) in my entry.

crap
never read it never will
if it aint sci fi it aint shit

Hey Spookz, if you're a sci fi guy than I'm sure you enjoyed Ender's Game. I am about to read it, and hear it's a great book.

Fountainhead, in the end of this incredible novel Holden does cry for his sister, he realizes that he cannot stop her nor change the ultimate fact that someday she will be corrupted by society. Indeed we all are corrupted by society, our society decides us, defines our personalities, and if you deny that then perhaps you'll deny the clothes that you wear, the movies which we watch, even how we think! Salinger shows us that Holden's struggles as a growing adolescent are in fact normal, that we must lose our innocence sometime in our lives, it is a part of growing.
Fine, to be born is to be human I have agreed to that, what I meant was that even though we are born human we don't have to neccessarily feel that humanity inside of ourselves. Neither to aknowledge that at some point we lose this innocence which was present at birth, nor to go through other experiences which define us as human beings. You indeed are born human, whether you, in your lifetime, are able to fully develop your humanity is another point.

Hey Ender's game that was an awesome novel, I also read Ender's shadow, not as good in fact I wouldn't recommend that one. Still Ender's game is really interesting.

Originally posted by Abdiel
he realizes that he cannot stop her nor change the ultimate fact that someday she will be corrupted by society. Indeed we all are corrupted by society, our society decides us, defines our personalities


Yes but that doesn't mean we all become corrupted. Learning the darker side of life doesn't neccessairly mean we are being corrupted. I know many model human beings that can speak dirty when needed. Wearing a societies clothes and folllowing it
doesn't mean we are corrupted. I think corruption is being taken out of context here.

Fine, to be born is to be human I have agreed to that, what I meant was that even though we are born human we don't have to neccessarily feel that humanity inside of ourselves. Neither to aknowledge that at some point we lose this innocence which was present at birth, nor to go through other experiences which define us as human beings. You indeed are born human, whether you, in your lifetime, are able to fully develop your humanity is another point.

Very true....i agree...a intelligent observation indeed.

You indeed are born human, whether you, in your lifetime, are able to fully develop your humanity is another point.

"explore your potential" covers it better i would think. humanity implies just good stuff whereas human potential includes bad stuff. the choice is yours

"Fine, to be born is to be human I have agreed to that, what I meant was that even though we are born human we don't have to neccessarily feel that humanity inside of ourselves. Neither to aknowledge that at some point we lose this innocence which was present at birth, nor to go through other experiences which define us as human beings. You indeed are born human, whether you, in your lifetime, are able to fully develop your humanity is another point."

I believe this statement is untrue because it presupposes the author's agreement, for the lack of a better word, of the "typical". The story is not a pleasant look at the human condition or society as a whole. In fact it adominshes the deviation from innocence--motsly. This is why it uses a teenager facing the realities of an uncaring society he wants to be a part of (thus his constant lying) but one he inherently cannot be fully a part of.

To become "phony" is not to achieve humanity, rather it is to dismiss humanity. Humanity as the author attempts to illustrate, is allegorically, Holden's sister. This is why she is his salvation and demise at once. Holden will not maintain his humanity or innocence, but his possesses it. Which in turn, she will eventually lose. The picture Salinger is trying to paint is: This is the current human condition ("the phonies") and this is what we are running from (Holden's sister) and this is how we ostracize a person resisting these changes (Holden). Why? And why can't we see the Holden's amongst us?

Originally posted by IXL777
It is ...but it depends from which perspective you view the truth:cool:

you really can't use the word truth when talking about a novel. novels, especially ones like "catcher" are meant to be ineterpreted by the reader and not have the interpretation determined byt the author.

Catcher is merely a primer; comparatively it is fluff. That's not to say it's not a good novel. For accessibility and communication it is among the platinum standards of American literature; you'll not hear me complaining a whit about Catcher in the Rye.

But for those enthralled with Catcher, this is one time that I can say you ain't seen nothin' yet.

And I recommend it in the following order:

- Nine Stories - You need "A Perfect Day for Bananafish". The rest of the stories are their own to make heads or tails of; take Salinger's humble dedications as legitimate.

- Franny and Zooey - You'll start to see that Salinger always leads back to a certain, possibly ineffable condition. Advice: Pray without ceasing.

- Raise High the Roofbeams Carpenters, and Seymour - The first story, "Raise High the Roofbeams, Carpenters", is breathtaking; that is, keeping up with it leaves you breathless. The second story, "Seymour", is perhaps the paramount achievement of American literature in its day. It is part of the reason I never got into the self-loathing cyberpunk movement; nobody could wallow in misery like Salinger.

But there is no underlying moral to any of it. As far as I can tell, Salinger operates much like the Author's Warning at the beginning of Twain's Huckleberry Finn. But it took me until "Seymour" to understand it, reading in that order, slowly, over ten years. I wish I'd been paying more attention; for some reason I always put off buying Salinger.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of the criticisms, but in the case of Salinger, criticism is almost if not entirely useless. I can promise you with my heart of hearts that any attempt to define Salinger's work to miss the point; I can't tell you how much I made of "Bananafish" before I finally figured out to not make that much of it. But it took "Seymour" to do it.

Salinger's a great trip. Enjoy every luscious letter of it.

I remind everyone that all human beings, regardless of their privilege, have the right to seek happiness. Certes, we may think Holden's rejection of a silver spoon seems dubious, but none of it can buy back what is already lost.

There is as much to take from crayon scribblings on a museum wall as there is from any number of pages spent on the bemoaning of privilege.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Thanx Tiassa , I will read some of these books....:)

Becoming a phony is probably the only defence/protection against the world of phonies. Surely Holdens brother is not a phony (by nature) but he became one (fast car + and model girlfriend) after writing wonderfull books about kids. It's possible that Holden will do the same.

Okay, I know I only rain on everyones' day with my serious banter but I will anyway. My old professor that I often mentioned always admonished us to "focus on yourself".

I was playing basketball at the gym vrs. a friend of mine and he was talking alot of "trash talk" to which I responded that I didn't care about people. He rather arrogantly told me that I did. I said no I don't and that the reason is that "everyone is in charge of themselves at least when the reach a certain age". Needless to say he didn't buy it, but guess what, I didn't care that he didn't.

My point here is that perhaps Holden was setting himself up to fail. To a certain extent you have to deal with the world and work with it and occasionally compromise to succeed. Perhaps Holden was above anyone else unreasonable. I remember an author I have read or an introduction to a book that said most of our works of great literature are really catalogs of men being unreasonable and paying the price for it. Certainly Erasmus saw such folly in many of the more ancient classics.

Holden was like how President Nixon was with his mother, he set his sister up as some model of purity just as Nixon set his mother up as a saint. And so if his sister let him down by doing something unpure say like having sex that was proof for Holden that the world was no good. But is it really no good, or is it just no good in Holden's shallow little universe. In other words, he put his entire view of life on the shoulders of his sister's behavior and when she let him down, he felt justified in saying that it was a bad, bad world.

Of course if was kind of disheartening that his sister did what she did and it is an important commentary on how people are in the world. I think there was even perhaps an element in it that she did what she did in a way to hurt Holden, to teach him a lesson about life, whether it was wrong or right.

That brings me to another thing my old professor said:
"Mother's (and presumably future or potential mothers) are ruthless teachers".

But to return to my argument I think that by setting his sister up as some kind of idol, he was putting the responsibility for his life in someones hand's instead of his own. Perhaps he should have learned the Serenity Prayer.

Many thoughts upon Man's condition and as of yet no clear answer. Thanks sargentland for that comment, but what is corruption, a dictionary offers this;a departure from the original or from what is pure or correct. Could you say that something is corrupt if it's nature is to be this particular way. Are human's basically corrupt if indeed it is their normal nature to be greedy?

Spookz you said that "humanity just implies good stuff", which I believe, from the point of a pessimist (am I one?) could be considered wrong. Humanity doesn't imply virtues at all, in fact what I take it to mean is the certainty of mistake and vice. To "explore human potential" is a departure from what is normal, is it therefore corrupt? However, the statement which I just made could also be debated, is it human nature to explore man's own potential?

I have taken this thread off of the topic of humanity by means of comparing it to The Catcher in the Rye to which I most humbly apologize but in the effort to explore the meaning of humanity. If someone requests I shall withdraw any attempts to distract the main purpose of this thread yet if one wishes to seek insignt fountainhead has provided some, probably to a greater extent that what I have written.

Now ask yourself what your humanity means to you, could any one of us lose our humanity? Could we become something, in our lifetime's, less than human? Would anyone like to discuss the human condition as represented by 1984 by George Orwell? The human spirit in this novel. Was it broken or destroyed or merely redirected? Holden's sister? Holden's sister, her innocence in this novel, most agree that Salinger wished to show that someday she will lose her innocence, it appears that we have decided that humans have innocence inherently why is this so if indeed one part of growing up is to lose innocence? Can it be gained back.

I have felt that innocence is inherent to human beings that we are born pure and that losing it comes not with any singular event in our lifetime but just as the passing of time. But then again I am damn tired. So very tired, haha looking forward to anything this populas has to say...

Abdiel said:
"Can it (innocence) be gained back."

That is an interesting question.

Generally I would have to say that innocence cannnot be gained back. If you do something-in other words are "guilty" of something then how would one gain his innocence back?

quote;
Holden was like how President Nixon was with his mother, he set his sister up as some model of purity just as Nixon set his mother up as a saint. And so if his sister let him down by doing something unpure say like having sex that was proof for Holden that the world was no good. But is it really no good, or is it just no good in Holden's shallow little universe. In other words, he put his entire view of life on the shoulders of his sister's behavior and when she let him down, he felt justified in saying that it was a bad, bad world.
I am inclined to agree with you fred X, I also agree with Abdiel quote:her innocence in this novel, most agree that Salinger wished to show that someday she will lose her innocence..I think we all lose our innocence in the "Blake" way..sad

:cool:

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
..."I hate goth's."

http://maddox.xmission.com/gothagain.html

Maddox - "..What exactly have they been through? Maybe a course in bigotry, bias and blind submission?"

Originally posted by Xev
Or maybe Holden should just go back to listening to System of a Down and slitting his wrists like all rich brats with too much time on their hands. You are the most cynical and boring person I've ever come across.

its just a facade. cut her some slack. lets be......humane!

Originally posted by spookz
its just a facade. cut her some slack. lets be......humane!

We will when she stop swearing........she has a big north and south!!:)

Responding to the thought about innocence. I believe that it can never be gained back, well that isn't true. Once we fall from this pedistal of life, into the abyss of death and beyond. Once our eyes close forever from this mortal world, then I believe that you are once again innocent.

The thing is that some refer to old age as going back to being a child. Well I must say that can't this also be applied with innocence, once we die can't we lose all that was guilty of us and return once again to purity? A purity so strong that it can only be achieved with by the loss of all that we considered human...?

Originally posted by Abdiel
Responding to the thought about innocence. I believe that it can never be gained back, well that isn't true. Once we fall from this pedistal of life, into the abyss of death and beyond. Once our eyes close forever from this mortal world, then I believe that you are once again innocent.

The thing is that some refer to old age as going back to being a child. Well I must say that can't this also be applied with innocence, once we die can't we lose all that was guilty of us and return once again to purity? A purity so strong that it can only be achieved with by the loss of all that we considered human...?

Interesting Abdiel,I believe that innocence can never be regained ....not in the Blakian way..once lost always lost, until Immortality!

quote: