Much has been written about the Caste System of India. Here is a link that explains somewhat.

http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/messages/caste.htm

You can do a google search to get more. I will come back and post my views shortly. Thanks

Here are some more thoughts on the matter:

In India basically there are four major type of castes:
1. Brahmin: Priests
2. Kshatriya: Kings, Aristocrats and the military
3. Vaisya: Business people engaged in trade and commerce
4. Sudra: Who provide services to the society such as fisherman, cobbler etc.

There are sub castes based on the division of labor as in SIC code. It is not supposed to be one is better than any other, because “it takes a village” to be a society. For a long time, priests son studied to be priest, kings son trained to be king and the business family continued their know how within that caste system. Since Brahmins were the priests, they controlled the social rituals, books and manipulated the society to favor them and declared themselves the high caste along with the Kshatriyas who were the keeper of the swords. In fact many thousand years ago, there was a war between Brahmins and Kshatriyas and guess who own? (hint: Kshatriyas are the ones with sword and weapons)

(Does this remind you the TV series Babylon 5 ?)

Today in USA, we have 4 classes based on money and education.

Super rich: Billionaires
Rich: Millionaires
Middle Class: Teachers, Engineers, Managers (further subdivided into Upper & Lower based on income)
Poor: Those who visit welfare offices regularly

In US and most part of the western culture, education and social interaction does play a role in defining whether a person is high class or low class (also called “redneck” in south). So here the class division is based on material assets and education than type of job a person does because we have universities to learn the trade one wants to be in.

Back to India: Those who do not fall into those categories fall under outcaste and hence untouchable. There is a whole group of people that were in India before the Aryans colonized India. They also fall under untouchables. The Government of India stamps them as “Scheduled Caste” (they did in 1970, don’t know what they do today). A lot of people that fall through the cracks switch their religion to Christianity in the hopes of getting out of the unfair practice and discrimination.

Anytime any group has a identifiable marker, others have a tendency to be biased more in a bad way than good way. In USA, a person can change that class by education, hard work etc. In Europe, it is difficult because the markers are Italian, German, Polish etc. In USA we still have the black and white marker that causes all kinds of problems. In case of blacks the marker is genetic. In India those markers are artificially created. So a lot of people drop their surname (last name) to make the marker unidentifiable for good reason.
So, my thought on the matter is, there is nothing wrong in having a marker to identify who you are or what you do in life, but please let us not use that to create a negative bias when that has no relationship with the marker.

There is work underway to further create more markers. Read my post in Aryan Invasion. Scientific study is one thing but let us not create more biases from the study.

Interesting, when I was taught the caste system in Primary School, it was taught in more of a way that defined who the upper class including the very upper(kings, queens, princes etc) was, the middle class, the lower class and the untouchables.

So it is a lot different thinking of castes in ways of fitting into a society. It reminds me of my own religion, Christianity. Where we have the 'body of Christ' which includes all Christians. What this teaching says is that don't consider one job over another. Like say don't consider the job of a Priest higher than that of a person who prays or cleans the church and so forth. Because without the church cleaner, no one would want to go to a filthy church, but without a priest, there is no one to give the sermon. So just as a body requires lungs, it need a heart and a brain to function also. So therefore, no one person is considered more important than the other.

kmguru, how do you actually become an 'untouchable'? Could a person in one of the castes become an untouchable during the course of their life?

Thanks

kmguru, how do you actually become an 'untouchable'? Could a person in one of the castes become an untouchable during the course of their life?

For every man made rule, chances are there are exceptions. I do not know for sure, but you are born in to a caste system, so you just do not switch a caste on some deeds. Mind you though, if a ruler class male marries an unknown caste, the child becomes the ruler class.

Also Deadwood, the caste system has nothing to do with the religion but somehow got integrated into it. I remember parables written specifically not to have such discrimination - since it takes all kinds to create a functioning society.

I am hoping, as India marches to the new information age, they will gradually clean several thousand years worth social garbage. It may take one or two generations to make it happen.

I was told that, God made the Jews wander for one generation so that the old beliefs will die with the last generation. I hope that is the case here.

Yes, there are always people who just crave power and will go to any lengths to achieve it.

However, I do find it interesting reading your posts how in western society we are taught about Eastern religion with a Western view. One very interesting thing was that a few months ago, I saw an interview with India's foreign minister being interviewed by an Australian. You see to Western society, Pakistan and India look like the plain enemies. However, what the Indian foreign minister was saying was that they weren't enemies, but it is kind of like a 'family dispute'. the interviewer couldn't believe what she was saying and kept on going with the point "but you are enemies?". You see the different societies and how they see each other. The US would probably do well to study more about Chinese culture. You will find that they are a very honourable race. The way they respect there parents and so forth.

Only after understanding will you have change. I guess if the Indians find out their roots or heritage that might start some change. But then again I really don't know. I only know a little bit about Hinduism. kmguru, if you don't mind, what is your religious background?

Thanks

Hi Deadwood:

You need to read my other postings under Eastern Philosophy to get a better idea of my religious background. You are correct as to how people percieve others based on their own background. It happens because, people do not really want to study other cultures when they were young. Once they reach 21, it is harder for them to understand different view points.

Take the case of communism. There is not a single person in US that knows anything about Communism as espoused by Karl Marks. All they know is that Communists are our enemy and that is that. No ifs, buts....

My base belief with respect to Christianity is this: I believe and try to obey everything that Emmanuel (sp, Jesus birthname?) spoke of including the ten commandments. However I am not a Christian by the rules of his followers - and I do not give a darn. This belief, to me, does not contradict my way of life based on Sanatana Dharma. If you are a Christian, I recommend to stick with what Jesus said (go to the source) and not what his followers said or are saying today.

I do not know, if in Christianity you are supposed to ask for favor from Jesus (being son of God) and/or God himself. In Hinduism and Chinese society, you must. Now, I have been in trouble a few times and asked Jesus for help and received help with astronomical odds. Does that make me a Christian, I do not know. God works mysterious ways....I will take anyhelp I can get.

As I was writing this, I heard in CNN that they are going to add DHA to baby formula, because Mothers Milk contains DHA and those who are breastfed get an IQ boost of 20 points. When you tamper with nature....

Here is a site on six major religions of the world.

http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/

Hi kmguru.

I'm sorry I had read your posts, but I couldn't pick out anything specific. I know you're into Yoga and want to make a retreat and do't have the money, but thats about all I got.

Yes, I obey the teachings of Jesus Christ. And according to the bible, He taught the disciples to believe in Him. I have seen His work as well. He works miracles. It is He who has strengthened my belief in Him, ever since God answered a prayer when I was I think four. My mum told me to pray and so I did. I was having this very bad recurring nightmare. And I've never had it again, though I can remember it exactly now as I write. I believed in Him before that. I still have recurring dreams like continuations spanning years but nothing real nightmarish if you catch my drift.

Yeah, Emmanual refers to Jesus Christ. It means I think but positive "God with Us" and I think Jesus means that to. In those times, who a person was, was characterized by their name.

And I agree, that there are a lot of iffies in the church, there are heresies. But you can tell that a Christian is a true believer by the way they act. (I'm not trying to be up myself here) They should not exalt themselves, they should be gentle, and have no hate for their brother (all people). Sorry about going off topic, but as I think you do, I love to share my faith.

Oh yes, I think I see another difference in culture.
I do not know, if in Christianity you are supposed to ask for favor from Jesus (being son of God) and/or God himself.

We don't ask for favor as in Hindism and such. We ask for help, guidance, councilling, teaching, healing. But we just don't ask for blessing. We worship and praise God for who He is, for what He has done, and for what He is going to do and doing within us. Though I cannot comprehend it, Jesus is fully man fully God. I think when referring to the word Son in this context means having the 'nature' of God. Jesus was sinless, and blameless before God. The Christian God is triune (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), I myself can testify to the Holy Spirits work within me. I am a changed person, because of Him. Really, I mean it, these are not just empty words but I am telling the truth from my experience. The old testament, prophesied around 300 prophesies about the Messiah (Saviour) and Jesus fits the description perfectly. Though not all are fulfilled. They are to be fulfilled at His second coming. Well, thats what I believe.

But what is Sanata Dharma? Sorry again for going way off topic, but I'm really interested in what you believe. You've got me intrigued. And it is only us two replying in this thread. And likewise, if you do not understand something about what I believe or have not been clear enough so that I've confused you, please feel free to ask anytime. :)

Thanks.

Deadwood:

Please come to the following thread under Hinduism, read the post and then ask me the follow up question. Thanks.

http://www.sciforums.com/t3325/s1171bd607a4d5938b5824e2367bc7591/thread.html

We don't ask for favor as in Hindism and such. We ask for help, guidance, councilling, teaching, healing. But we just don't ask for blessing.

May be my poor choice of word 'favor" should be replaced by "help" - and that is what I ask from Jesus and God and they work. My understanding is that Christians are not supposed to go directly to God for help or forgiveness. They must go thorugh Jesus. Jews directly go to God and so do Hindus.

I obey the ten commandments not because I have to, not because I am Jewish or Christian wannabe, but it seems to be the right thing to do. I sincerely ask God (the word is God and not Kali, Shiva, Vishnu or Hebrew God, Christian God) to guide me. I try to do the right thing, be humble, assertive but not arrogant. I do not start a fight but with the help of God I can finish it.

When I am in serious trouble due to no fault of mine and I ask for help from God, I usually get it period. So I know, God loves me.

...and so life goes on...

If you must refer to the Jewish or Hebrew God, and don't wish to use His sacred name (YHVH), please, please don't refer to him as the 'Jew God'

Thanks.

Chagur, ...done....will make a mental note of that....thanks....

Sorry guys, I said God as in the Christian God because since we are talking about different religions, it is best to avoid confusion. I will refer to God as God, but I did not mean to any disrespect to Him [God]. So I do apologise.

Another point of interest. When Christians say that they pray through Jesus Christ they are not saying that they are not talking to God. What they mean is that they can pray to God because they are made clean through Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament if you had sinned or have done something that was wrong before God, you were unclean and therefore, unfit to worship God. So therefore, a sacrifice was needed. This is why the Jewish people made sacrifices as individuals, and the High Priest made sacrifices for his own sins and on behalf of the people each day.

This is where the prophesies come in. The Old Testament prophesied a coming Messiah, who would free His people. This New Covenent(contract, testament) would also be made available to Gentiles(non-Jew) as well as Jews. Because Jesus was fully man and fully God here on Earth(I am not to sure about now) and sinless(blameless before God) He was able to be a sacrifice made possible for all men, women and child.

When I am in serious trouble due to no fault of mine and I ask for help from God, I usually get it period. So I know, God loves me.

That is wonderful. :) :) :)

Also, I have some more things to comments and questions about the caste system. Even with the caste system being in society with people being put into certain jobs as I understand it. What would happen if someone didn't want to be in the military or trade and commerce?

and also, perhaps Budha didn't like it because back in his time it was more of a upper, middle, lower, untouchable class system as I was taught it is today when I was back in my public primary school.

Thanks

What would happen if someone didn't want to be in the military or trade and commerce?

Old days that was not a problem. Now you may need a new identity. It is no different than today in US. Suppose you did the work of a carpenter for 5 years and did not like the dust and switched to electrician job for another 2 to 4 years. If you go back to the carpentry work, no one will hire you because of your current job status. It happens today in computer jobs.

I just remembered something that is worth noting. While in the western society, upper class does not mix well with the lower class, in caste system mixing of rich and poor in the upper castes is welcome. So in a way, money does affect the socialization at least not to the same extent as in western society....

Hey kmguru, I think that Western Society is starting to come away from that the rich stick together and the poor stick together. Today, its more about whether you send your children to public or private schools. Thats the dividing line today I think.

I have news for you, rich do stick together, poor do not have a choice. I can give a lot of examples from my own personal experience.

hehe, fair enough kmguru. I reckon you could tell me a lot of stories about when you and your rich pals stuck together :D

nah, actually, in Australia, people do send their children to private schools. On one of our A Current Affair programs, they were putting one willing politician each week in the shoes of one whats termed Aussie Battler family(poor Australian family just trying each week to make ends meet).

Well on the second week, I couldn't believe it, they had this family who was struggling each week just to make ends meet. You see, after all of the other expenses ie. 3 children going to private school AUD$5000 a year * 3(US$2500 * 3) the politician then had to make a budget and shop for food and live with the family. I can tell you they usually went 50 or so dollars(US$25) over budget. But with cashing out 15 grand each year, I can see why, and the Current Affairs program didn't even consider that a problem.

you see the point is, I think if you send your children to private school, you vanquish your right to complain about money.

But I would really love to hear a couple of stories about rich people sticking together. You can see this too in the school ground, not to mention private school people looking at you in your public school uniform like they are higher in society than you, well you get the picture. But then again it makes me happy to know that I'm not like that. :)

Oh! I have plenty of stories. A quick one about my kids. They have been to public and private school depending on where we lived (I moved around a lot within US). In one area, when the kids are in junior high, we did not pay any attention to their clothes because we did not understand fashions for that age group. We noticed, they are picking up rifraffs as their friends. We decided to do a little experiement. After a little research, we found out the culprit is the clothes. So we queitly took the kids to a better store with very expensive clothing.

Within a few weeks, our shy kids had rich friends. So, all I could say is...hmmm...that is how the society works...it was not in my technical manual of life....

hey kmguru, I did that experiment too, and the same thing happened, well kinda. In Australia, at school we wear school uniforms. But about once each term we have a free dress day where you don't have to wear school uniform.

So the first time, I wear my stussy shirt. In Australia, this brand is classed as 'cool'. My classmate in my clan(don't ask, just wear you go for 20 minutes each day to get the newsletter read and your name marked off, plus give any notes from your parents if you were absent the previous day) said "Stussy, coowell!". Actually I didn't even know the shirt was stussy, I just liked it. :) So I had a name brand T-Shirt and gained peoples respect.

So next time, I wore a cheap no name brand shirt. He reacted just the way I thought. Oh thats a cheap shirt. So I got teased by some classmates. This is one way to tell who your friends are. but I don't stoop to the 'cool' persons level where spending an extra AUD$30(US$15) on a shirt can mean the difference between respect and worthy of teasing. Well, since I buy my own clothes I can't afford to get expensive shirts. I kinda have half name brand, half don't, if I like omething I'll get it.

However, the most important thing to me is whether I'm comfortable underneath. I'm not going to wear expensive stuff on the outside, and not be comfortable. The opposite for me is preferable.

Oh well, sounds like you have some stories to tell. I hope you enjoyed mine. Pretty funny eh, though we live on different sides of the planet we still do the same experiment. :)

I will tell you another story:

Many years ago, I was a young engineer at a major consulting company. We had a beautiful girl friday (she did misc. chores around office). Because I was very young among a bunch of old engineers, she gravitated towards me to chat. What I found out is that she got married just after high school to a jock. By the time I talked to her, she was married for 5 months and things were not so good at home. After the honeymoon was over, reality started biting back. The guy with high school education could only find a labor job. He will come home dirty, get his beer and sit in front of the Television. His language slowly changed to slangs and obscenities. Everyday he will go to work in a blue collar environment and she to a white collar environment. In the evening, after small talk, arguments usually ended the day. She was ambitious, he was not.

After listening to this for the next 3 months, crying over my shoulder, I could not take it anymore. So I became the guilty party to encourage her to shop around for a better deal. We had several single engineers. I palyed the cupid, planned the program and liberated her from the hell on the 11th month.

Until next time...

Its stories like this that let me know i'm making a good choice not to get married. :D I would hate to end up like that, though I could end up happy as well. Anyway, both genders have told me numerous times out of nowhere that I would make a good husband one day and that they can picture me with kids. hehe, one said I would be a little sweetie *blush*

But anyway, I'll see what happens. Right now I'm taking a break from girl troubles and concentrating on studying. Then I'll be concentrating on getting a job. Then I'll be concentrating on working at my job and pleasing my boss. Then I'll be concentrating on ending my midlife crisis. Then I'll be concentrating on changing careers. Then concentrating on that job. Then concentrating on pleasing that boss. Then concentrating on retiring. Then when I retire I'll be concentrating on polishing my lawn bowling skills, and winning the tournament so I can pick up some chicks(the lawn bowling kind). Well thats my life story played out.

Did you want to see how that goes again?

Except I did not see any wife and kids in your plan - is that by design or afraid the plan will take too many detours? :D

Did you want to hear plan B?

I thought you might!

Well, this used to be plan A, but for some reason got put back, can't think why? But this one is really simple.

Live with parents. When I turn 32 I will consider moving out. Then at 36 after considering to move out, decide to put parents in a home. So at 36, I move in with my parents at the nursing home where I live out the rest of my days. I still havn't told my mum about the moving in part but I always joke around with her. hehe she always says "Your not putting me in a home!!!"

Well the reason why 36 is because I want to beat the precedent our current prime minister has set. I think he moved out at 32, that I consider it then.

Perhaps I can put wife in Plan C or D or something, but anyway, I should realate this to Eastern Philosophy somehow. So I'll just say I live in the Eastern part of Australia and love Philosophy. :D

*Originally posted by kmguru
I was told that, God made the Jews wander for one generation so that the old beliefs will die with the last generation. I hope that is the case here. *
It doesn't look like it's working.
It's been going on for hundreds of years, so far, hasn't it?

*There is not a single person in US that knows anything about Communism as espoused by Karl Marks.*
There was a guy whose nick was Boris, who came to the US from Russia.
He seemed to be relatively familiar with it.
Of course, he mentioned something about the US having made a better choice in having money to motivate people rather than ideology.

For some strange reason, people can buy more things with money than they can with ideology.

*I believe and try to obey everything that Emmanuel (sp, Jesus birthname?) spoke of including the ten commandments. This belief, to me, does not contradict my way of life based on Sanatana Dharma.
...
Does that make me a Christian, I do not know.*
Worry no longer, it doesn't.

There is nothing you can do to become a Christian.

that if with your mouth you confess Jesus as Lord and in your heart believe that God brought Him back to life, you shall be saved.
For with the heart men believe and obtain righteousness, and with the mouth they make confession and obtain salvation.
(Romans 10:9,10, WEY).

*Originally posted by Deadwood
But we just don't ask for blessing.*
Why not?

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
(Psalms 2:8, KJV).

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
(Matthew 7:7,8, KJV).

Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
(James 4:2, KJV).

*Originally posted by kmguru
Within a few weeks, our shy kids had rich friends. So, all I could say is...hmmm...that is how the society works...it was not in my technical manual of life*

You need a different manual.

A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.
(Ecclesiastes 10:19, KJV).

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
(Psalms 2:8, KJV).

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
(Matthew 7:7,8, KJV).

Works everytime for me...and Jesus loves me too.

I hope they work for you O! Tony1...

Surely, the ostensible reason we have created a God is because we all lived (and still do) desperate (whether obvious or quiet) lives and hope for inspiration and security from some-one/thing that is perfect (security factor #1), benevolent (security factor #2) and omnipotent (security factor #3)?

Thank you and goodnight.:D

IT WORKS....as long as you are happy.... :D

*Originally posted by kmguru
Works everytime for me...and Jesus loves me too.

I hope they work for you O! Tony1... *

It's great that works for you everytime.
You could be building your house on shifting sands.

Whosoever comes to me, and hears my sayings, and does them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that hears, and does not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
(Luke 6:47-49, KJV).

What would you be building if you hear the word of God and do the things of Hinduism?
I'm guessing your house will collapse before the storm reaches it.

You could be building your house on shifting sands.

KMGuru's house is no where near the "shifting sands". Tony1 is barking at the wrong tree.

Funny thing about western "castes". I find that presentation is everything. I'm from the wrong side of the tracks and have done my time in the ghetto. My life is defined by street fights, leather jackets, concealed weapons, routine death threats from gangs, and all of the trappings of life in the inner-city.

When I graduated from high school, I went through a bit of turmoil while adjusting to adult parameters (like knowing I could be tried as an adult) and set myself on my course. I found a job that put me in contact with CEOs and financial officers of major corporations. At one point I was working regularly with representatives of the state government. I had swapped out my skull-and-dagger multiple earrings for ruby-studs, replaced my cobra-fang hooked ring with a modest ruby ring (can you tell I like rubies?), and muted my cosmetic colors from colors of flame to soft pastels. Visually I had gone from Spike the Blood Queen to Chief Officer of Accounting.

I acted professionally and was accepted by the high executive world as one of their own. My cover didn't get blown until I was called in during my off hours to handle a situation that involved a large sum of missing assets. I came in wearing my street gear, looking more like I was casing the joint rather than being there to track down all that money. To my surprise, the men and women in the designer Italian suits didn't bat an eye as we went to work. We found the money and it wasn't until the next morning that I was asked about my style of dress. I explained where I was from and their attitudes, across the board, were "Oh, okay. As long as you represent the company and it's clients in a positive manner during your work hours."

They didn't care that I went to a rough inner-city school and held no degree while they had been born to the upper crusts and went to places I could only dream of attending, like Harvard, Yale, or Oxford. Rich met poor and it didn't make a difference. I was a punk, but I was also the Chief Officer of Accounts.

I guess what we have here is more a class of behavior. It's like, it doesn't matter that you're a big shot movie star. Get your feet off the table. Or in my case, it doesn't matter that you're a moshing punk street fighter. Do you have the data on the Tabbi-Tech account? Eh, rich, poor, middle-class, it's all in how you carry yourself.

Well said Oxygen. As a moderator, took you a while to show up in this neck up topics. :D It is true but at the same time biases are always there. For example, companies usually never interview anyone outside the job spec. Yet when they can not find anybody, they are willing to take a chance, and when they succeed, they will say, I knew that kmguru is smart...

There is really no solution to this problem. Only human interaction being at the right place at the right time and performance will count. However, as the culture gets older, the society is controlled in so many ways that it is difficult to break the mold. That is why people emmigrate to other lands because they can not prosper in their own country with the innovative ideas they carry.

As I write this, I hear the TV in the background that they are blaming the poor security guards for the mishap. That they could not catch some plastic knives and box cutters. The combined intelligence in the media is falling like a block of concrete. (you know what I mean). If the security has to check the inside of every luggage, search body cavities and slice the shoes open, we are really in trouble. The terrorists have won.

I worked in security for some high tech firms. They will always blame the over-worked, minimum wage security guard, or else the secretary. These same people that are screaming "Protect us! Protect us!" are the same ones who get huffy and short tempered if they aren't allowed to just breeze through security check points. I believe that we do need heightened security at our airports. I mean, seriously. SJC airport is an international airport, but the tower closes at midnight and there's no customs office. I would not want to see uniformed armed soldiers walking around using the intimidation factor to keep things right. I prefer the plainclothes approach.

I also have a plan for the airplanes themselves. Isolate the cockpit. There's nothing a flight attendant might need to personally see the pilot for. If the pilot needs to get something to eat, the plane can use the tubes like they use at the drive-up window of a bank. Any communication can be done via two-way tv. The pilot and the head stewardess would be the only ones to have access to the cockpit key. For the stewardess to get the key, she would have to break a small window, like for a fire alarm. This would trigger an alert in the cockpit, as well as sending a signal to the ground so that the maximum number of people are notified of a situation. The cockpit crew could check a monitor and see what was going on to cause the alarm. If it's a hi-jacking or some such threat to the passengers, he could then trigger a sort of sleeping gas and knock out everybody in the passenger section and then safely land the plane at the nearest suitable airport. The pilot's key would not have to be so secure, so he could get up to go the bathroom or stretch his legs and so on.

Just a thought. I'm curoius though. What does everybody else think?

That is very true. But you know what, the terrorists will try something else. It is that burglary activity. If you are in a upper middle class neighbourhood, and have a big dog, you may not need an alarm system. The burglar will find the least resistance path to steal. That is why, you do not see much armed burglary at a rich house. They can get more money robbing a bank than steal the furniture or paintings - even though the paintings could fetch more money.

Our terrorism model was based on several simple factors:

Most conflicts will be limited to Europe and Asia.
If someone shows up - there could be a small car bombing.
and so on.

Even now, there are many ways for a large organization that can do severe damage here if they had state support. So you take certain risks hoping certain activities wont happen. So, my feeling is that, in spite of what happened, concentrate on the little guy and solve the big problem through economic, political and military means. The reason WTC happened is because our government was sleep at the wheels and did not see the iceberg.

During the cold war, both parties were careful about the nuclear arsenal. So we did not have accidents. So forget about these stupid security measures and let us go back to our usual business except some minor changes for the lone gun-man. Let the government do what it must - watch those foreign enemy out there.

While you provide security, I do risk analysis for short and long term. Most people ignore time scale risk that is the result of one or multiple causes. So did our government.

Why is everybody pointing their fingers at the government? Sure, they're supposed to protect us, but I believe that there was no way they could have seen this coming.

In the interests of Civil Rights, they stopped profiling people for observation. A lot of security was relaxed for the interests of Civil Rights. While this is not necessarily a bad thing, it was something that we all wanted. Did you know that actor James Woods saw some of the terrorists on a "practice run" on a plane he was on? He reported the suspicious behavior to the authorities, stating that he believed that these guys were up to something. They had taken an entire cross-country trip and just sat there. Nobody just sits there, especially on a cross-country flight. They sat rigid, looking tense and nervous. His report was dismissed by the airport authorities. Of course, on the 11th, they reallllllly wanted to talk to him.

If their behavior was so unusual as to draw the attention of one man who wasn't even sitting very close to them, what does that say for the observation powers of the other people on the flight? Would multiple reports have caused the authorites to take a closer look? What other unusual behavior do we see in people on the street but keep quiet about? How much do we not notice? Honestly, in your wildest imagination, could you believe that somebody would actually sky-jack a plane full of civilians and fly it straight into a building full of people? In hindsight, we can say "Well, why not?" But before, could you have ever imagined seeing something like that that wasn't in a Mel Gibson movie?

The American government was not asleep at the wheel. America was.

Originally posted by Oxygen
The American government was not asleep at the wheel. America was.

So, are you saying - everytime I take my vacation on a cruise ship, I take my rubber boat with me?

Drive than fly? Do not work in a tall building? Have a gas mask handy? Have a batch of antidotes for bioagents at all times?

I am confused. Please explain.

I may be picking the wrong words, but we the people are the eyes and ears of the government, which can't be everywhere all the time. James Woods noticed strange behavior and reported. His was the only report, and they dismissed it. If just four more people had noticed or paid enough attention to their instincts to file reports of their own regarding suspicious behavior, might the government have possibly caught these guys before they could do any harm?

In our heightened atmosphere, someone noticed an unusually high number of middle-eastern people suddenly taking an interest in crop-dusting. (I live in the Tri-Counties area of California, and things like crop-dusting are major components of daily life.) This sudden surge happened within the past couple of days. This was suspicious behavior was reported by more than one agency and, as a result, crop-dusters are currently grounded. Yesterday, a middle-eastern man was stopped for having improper licensing on his semi-truck. His manifests were checked to see that he and his company were licensed to haul whatever it was they were hauling (a common practice for the Highway Patrol). Turns out it was crop-dusting chemicals, the driver wasn't licensed to haul chemicals, and his license wasn't a Class A. To boot, he had no paperwork to show where he had picked up the chemicals from. The crop-duster wannabes and the illegal truck driver had something in common besides their ethnicity. It was their links to bin Laden's organization.

This particular truck was headed for the Tri-Counties area, and I am very glad that a handful of Americans wasn't asleep at the wheel this time. They saw something suspicious and reported it. I shudder to think what was avoided.

Do you have to be paranoid while considering your favorite activities? Hell, no. Do you have to keep an eye on the guy with the turban? Hell, no. Just use a little common sense, and to hell with worrying about what Miss Manners would think.

I offer up an example we used in my Psychology class. In an experiment, nobody would give a ride to a mean looking man in a leather jacket, motorcycle boots, buck-knife, scraggly beard, and all the trappings of a low-life piece of scum. Although he stood at the side of the road for hours, nobody stopped. Well, duh. This guy looked like he could tear your liver out with one hand and feed it to you with the other.

The experimenters then took this same person and put him in an elevator. Although fellow passengers had their reservations, they would get into the car with this person. They had subjected themselves to the same circumstances as they would have if they had given him a ride from the side of the road. Out of 100 people, only one saw this dangerous looking guy in the elevator and said "No thanks. I'll catch the next one."

The one person who refused to enter the elevator car was asked by the experimenters why he had done so. He said that the person looked dangerous and he didn't feel safe. He listened to his instincts and potentially saved his own life. Of the ones who had reservations but got in anyway, which was 98%, they admitted to being afraid, but they said unanimously that they didn't want to seem impolite, antisocial, or paranoid. (Yeah, I know. That only counts for 99%. The final 1% said "Because I could kick his ass if he tried anything.")

The same thing, I believe applies in society today. because we don't want to be seen as impolite, antisocial, or paranoid, we tend to ignore or block out unusual behavior. (James Woods didn't.) We are taught to accept diversity. All diversity means is difference, and not all difference is good. The person with the unusual name and accent and decorative tattoos is probably a very interesting person to talk to. The wide-eyed person with the twitchy mannerisms and hand kept firmly in one coat pocket should probably be watched.

It's strange, but veteran waiters and waitresses do this on a regular basis. They can usually tell when someone is going to walk out without paying. They tend to watch these people and intercept them most of the time as they are bolting for the door. All they have to do is be aware of what's going on around them.

Tomorrow you will probably see quite a few people. Notice their behavior and try to determine what you would consider within the bounds of normal behavior and what you would consider behavior that may be worth keeping an eye on. You don't have to be intrusive or paranoid, just observant.

BTW-If you take your own life raft along on a cruise, I want to hang around with you! You're obviously someone who believes in being prepared! :D ;)

Now, you are getting somewhere, Oxygen. I know you had it within you. Just did not come out. And that is exactly my point.

I design Advanced Decision Systems. To make any decision, you have to have the relevant data. You have to convert that relevant data to information. From infromation, you create associations, threshold mapping and structured relationships. Then you can say to certain accuracy what cause will have what effect and "When". It is a time series data, that converts to "Knowledge". Proper management of that Knowledge will provide you with the wisdom to succeed.

Normal people do not know the causes and the underlying data. That is why we pay $20 Billion a year for NSA & Company to collect them and make recommendations. Somewhere along the line, our politicians let us down, because if they had this information ahead of time, they did nothing about it.

There have been report after report to beef up the cockpit doors, have sky marshals in the plane etc. Nothing was done. Now there is a high possibility that we will get hit by smallpox bioagent. Now we all will be vigilant. But the hospitals need to keep the vaccines handy. Without it, we are screwed. I am sending an email to my local hospital to ask if they are ready. You can do the same.

Yes, we can do our part. But we need intelligence and methodology to do that. And I am in agreement to your last post.

Thanks for helping me get it out. I've been in a mental tizzy ever since learning that two people that my boyfriend had given tech support to on the afternoon of the tenth of September were found dead in the rubble of Tower One. His job has him in a position where he could have easily been one of the techs flown out to New York to handle whatever was wrong with whichever system. (His immediate supervisor was flown out to a ship during Desert Storm to repair a gun system on a ship while it was involved in combat. Yikes!) It really drove the situation home, having two of his co-workers killed in the attack.

Scary times, these are, but as you say, if we have the relevant facts, we can make sound decisions even in the face of terror.

All good points but are hospitals actually allowed to have small pox vaccines?

If I may...

The US and Russia both have the small pox virus but it may be destroyed in 2002. As far as I know there still deciding. What you guys have is enough to wipe out the world entire population! But without it if there is an outbreak then a vacine would take longer to produce since you would have to isolate the virus. The problem is as with Nuclear weapons, there is no documentation as to who has these things. The virus could be in a rogue or third world country waiting to be used. If you've seen pictures of people who have small pox you will see how bad it is, this aint no chicken pox. The word small is deceiving, huge pox would be the correct phrase.

Also, wouldn't sky marshals be a relatively cheap way to maintain air plane in-flight security?

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

I am in favor of the sky marshalls. I also am in favor of using some kind of sleeping gas. I defined my idea in another thread (and was somewhat giddy to hear that something similar was actually being considered, although I doubt I can claim connection to the story I read about it in the paper), wherein the cockpit could feasibly be isolated from the rest of the plane. Any serious trouble, and an alert tells the pilot to check a special monitor. If the situation merits it, the pilot triggers sleeping gas and then lands the plane at the nearest suitable airport. The troublemakers then wake up in the loving arms of the authorities. There are always the risks of innocent passengers having a reaction of some sort to the gas, like if they had a sensitive medical condition or something, but a waiver could be signed before the tickets are sold to the person, or else they could check with their doctors before going on a flight where this gas might be used.

Just a thought for a non-lethal takedown.

Scary times, these are, but as you say, if we have the relevant facts, we can make sound decisions even in the face of terror.

There is a philosophical question that comes to mind and this thread is in the right place. Why these innocents died?

Without invoking God's name, I will try to answer in the Eastern Philosophy POV:

Everything that happens in the world and universe has a cause and effect relationship. There is a saying " ...handwriting on the wall..." . Peoples action on the planet have effects, some results can be seen in a short time frame and others can be seen in a long time frame. The shorter time frames are easilier to manage than longer time frames. Each subsequent action has its effect and so on.

For example, I found a solution for a very large corporation that just filed for Chap 11. The solution is perfect for them. The solution was presented to them through a lower channel six months ago, but they ignored them. Now the solution is being presented to them at the CEO level. Now, if they still ignore it, then the company will be sold off piece by piece and the creditors will get what they can. Some will lose money. Company will lay off tons of people (already started). Then the company is no more. Can the CEO make the right choices under Chap 11 terror? I will let you know in a few weeks.

The universe always gives us solutions in the time of need. Those who use it make the wise choice and be sucessful at it. The people who got laid off in the above company were innocent and had no control over people who were watching the store.

I can give you four or five examples where companies got their right solutions at the right time, those who took it became successful, those who did not - filed Chap 11 or in case of recent ones, I am waiting for them to go under. But one thing never fails - they are presented with the correct solution at the correct time. That is called Karmic Law of the Universe.

Now, does this have any similarity with our incidence on Sept 11? To me it is a major YES. Did they have warnings before this? YES; Where did the warning go? To the lower channel; Did they act on it? NO; So people got terminated? YES; Does the CEO (Our Pres) now have the solution? YES; Can he identify what that is? perhaps not; Does he wish to implement that solution? YES; Can he implement that solution: Perhaps not; Are we up the creek without a paddle: YES.

The whole science of this is called "Complexity Management". I have posted this in relation to Business, in this forum. A complex business system, a social system and a government system - they are all the same with a different prefix in the name only.

How are we up the creek without a paddle? That would imply that there's nothing we can do. There's plenty we can do. Hitting them in the pocketbook was just one small part of how an asymmetrical war is fought.

Oh...there is plenty we could do to nuetralize the threat once for all. But would we, can we do it? That is a whole different matter.

Pocket books are good strategy but only works to those who have pocket books. Those who have nothing to lose...that may not be the right approach. But it will work indirectly.

Looking at the big picture is a necessity. Our look only goes out to 4 years.

That's why I said that pocketbooks are just a part of it. There's not a whole lot on this planet that doesn't run on money. Bin Laden has quite a bit of it, and it's most likely not in cash. By blocking his access to that money we take away his ability to get things like guns, plane tickets, and other logistical things that a terrorist needs. The barter system doesn't work well at all on the scale he would need to get his equipment. Locking up his money is the equivalent of eliminating a department within a company by first cancelling its accounts that it uses to get its supplies. You know, what good is a printer if there's no paper? What good is a high-end NIC card if there's no cable? For want of a nail, as we say. Of course, this isn't the whole solution. It's just one small but effective part.

That is exactly what our government is trying. The problem is what one persons terrorist, it is other persons freedom fighters. Until that definition is solved - it wont work.

Hurting innocent people by means of bombs or withdrawing food source is not a good thing. Misery loves company. And gutter snakes come from gutters. It is a complex world. Only a good world humanitarian leadership can solve this problem.

But who is really hurting the innocent people? We haven't laid waste to Afghanistan, even though it's within our capabilities, because our government wants to make sure it gets the people who are responsible. Otherwise we could wipe the country off the face of the planet. The Afghanistan government, the Taliban, has placed itself in the position of provinding shelter to a bunch of people who have pretty much pissed off the entire planet. In doing so, the Taliban is hurting its own people by its actions.

As Bush has said, our war is not with the people of Afghanistan. Its with the terrorists and those who provide shelter and assistance for them. In this case, the Taliban is providing the shelter and is knowingly putting its people in harm's way. There is nothing but themselves stopping them from rolling over on the terrorist network and handing over all of their information on it. This could save a lot of people a lot of agony. The ball is in their court if they want to stop the juggernaut of war.

By the way, how did this thread go from the castes of India to why the Taliban does or doesn't deserve to have its little butt whipped?

By the way, how did this thread go from the castes of India to why the Taliban does or doesn't deserve to have its little butt whipped?

Not very many members visit this obscure topic. So basically we had a private chat...without anybody's interference. Only Deadwood visits this space occasionally.

Private chat room. Cool. Back to the subject of Afghanistan, I've been hearing about a lot of draconian laws enacted by the Taliban. I'm a student of propaganda and tend to take such things skeptically. Has anyone verified that things such as the death sentence if you don't have the proper beard length are true or not? I'm having a hard time swallowing that one. I know traditional Islamic laws tend to be strict, but this one sounds a little over the top.

Not very many members visit this obscure topic.

I don't mind talking about this topic.

The present day caste-system in India, is based on the ancient vedic system called 'varnashram dharma', it organises society into four occupational and four spiritual divisions (varnas and ashramas). The four occupational divisions are, Brahmin, Kshatriya, Viashya and Sudra.

Brahmin= Technically the most intelligent of the four occupations, these are the priestly class. There role is to advise the Kshatrya class in keeping a God concious society. They are not allowed to work for money, they support themselves by begging alms. They are the only people who can chant the mantras perfectly, in the act of great sacrifices to Lord Vishnu (Parabrahman). The biblical character Abraham was such a personality.

Kshatriya= Administrative class of men. This class of men usually occupy the posts of Kings and politicians. There role is to see to it that their kingdoms are safe, prosperous and above all God concious. They take their advise from the brahmins.

Vaishya= A member of the mercantile and agricultural class, or for a modern term, the buisness men. They help the Kshatriya class, by producing wealth and maintaining the cows. (cows; very useful in society).

Sudra= A member of the labouring class of men. He helps all the above, by offering his labour.

The four spiritual divisions.


Sanyasi= Is a person who lives in the renounced order of life. This means he lives his life fully in accordance with the Supreme. He renounces all manner of sense gratification, anything he does is only to please the Supreme Being. He offers everthing he has, including wife, children, food and life to the Supreme Being. At this stage, although he live in this material world, he is trancendental to it, in other words he is not affected in the least, by anything this world has to offer. He sees God in everything and everything in God.

Varnaprashta= A man who has retired from householder life to cultivate greater renunciation, according to the vedic social system. At about the age of fifty, he leave his wife in the capable hands of their now older sons, goes on a spiritual pilgramage, and eventually ends up in a forest, whereby he begins to renounce the material world, and focuses on the Supreme Being.

Grahastra= A married man who lives according to vedic principles. This class of man is allowed to have sexual intercourse with his wife, as long as their intentions are to pro-create. The idea of pro-cration is to produce God consious offspring.

Brahmachari= This class of man is taught from the begining of his understanding, the vedic hymns, yajna (sacrifice) and celebacy. After some years of training, he is free to choose which one of the above four ashramas he would like to enter.

When God created the material world, it was divided into 3 catorgaries (modes/gunas), goodness, passion and ignorance. The varnashram system integrated with those modes thus;

Brahmin/ Sanyasi........ mode of goodness
Kshatrya/Grahastra.....mode of passion
Vaishya/Grahastra.......modes of passion and ignorance
Sudra...........................mode of ignorance

The people outside of the vedic social system are classed as untouchable, deep ignorance.

It must be further noted, that these divisions was not decided on birth or wealth, but on the quality of the individual. Therefore, the son of a brahmin did not automatically become a brahmin, and the son of a sudra could by his determination to serve the Supreme Being, become a brahmin. Today we see, bogus gurus, priests and wealthy citizen, who may be connected via linage to brahmins, claiming that they are brahmins. This is not to be understood as the varnashrama system put in place by God.

SORRY ABOUT THE DOUBLE POST MIX-UP. TRIED TO DELETE ONE BUT ENDED UP DELETING BOTH.

You can delete just one by going to the edit and checking the box at the left to delete it. You may have to refresh it to make it work.

Thank you Jan for posting. We need more understanding between cultures so that one group does not try to wipe out the rest.

Not very many members visit this obscure topic.

I don't mind talking about this topic.

The present day caste-system in India, is based on the ancient vedic system called 'varnashram dharma', it organises society into four occupational and four spiritual divisions (varnas and ashramas). The four occupational divisions are, Brahmin, Kshatriya, Viashya and Sudra.

Brahmin= Technically the most intelligent of the four occupations, these are the priestly class. There role is to advise the Kshatrya class in keeping a God concious society. They are not allowed to work for money, they support themselves by begging alms. They are the only people who can chant the mantras perfectly, in the act of great sacrifices to Lord Vishnu (Parabrahman). The biblical character Abraham was such a personality.

Kshatriya= Administrative class of men. This class of men usually occupy the posts of Kings and politicians. There role is to see to it that their kingdoms are safe, prosperous and above all God concious. They take their advise from the brahmins.

Vaishya= A member of the mercantile and agricultural class, or for a modern term, the buisness men. They help the Kshatriya class, by producing wealth and maintaining the cows. (cows; very useful in society).

Sudra= A member of the labouring class of men. He helps all the above, by offering his labour.

The four spiritual divisions.


Sanyasi= Is a person who lives in the renounced order of life. This means he lives his life fully in accordance with the Supreme. He renounces all manner of sense gratification, anything he does is only to please the Supreme Being. He offers everthing he has, including wife, children, food and life to the Supreme Being. At this stage, although he live in this material world, he is trancendental to it, in other words he is not affected in the least, by anything this world has to offer. He sees God in everything and everything in God.

Varnaprashta= A man who has retired from householder life to cultivate greater renunciation, according to the vedic social system. At about the age of fifty, he leave his wife in the capable hands of their now older sons, goes on a spiritual pilgramage, and eventually ends up in a forest, whereby he begins to renounce the material world, and focuses on the Supreme Being.

Grahastra= A married man who lives according to vedic principles. This class of man is allowed to have sexual intercourse with his wife, as long as their intentions are to pro-create. The idea of pro-cration is to produce God consious offspring.

Brahmachari= This class of man is taught from the begining of his understanding, the vedic hymns, yajna (sacrifice) and celebacy. After some years of training, he is free to choose which one of the above four ashramas he would like to enter.

When God created the material world, it was divided into 3 catorgaries (modes/gunas), goodness, passion and ignorance. The varnashram system integrated with those modes thus;

Brahmin/ Sanyasi........ mode of goodness
Kshatrya/Grahastra.....mode of passion
Vaishya/Grahastra.......modes of passion and ignorance
Sudra...........................mode of ignorance

The people outside of the vedic social system are classed as untouchable, deep ignorance.

It must be further noted, that these divisions was not decided on birth or wealth, but on the quality of the individual. Therefore, the son of a brahmin did not automatically become a brahmin, and the son of a sudra could by his determination to serve the Supreme Being, become a brahmin. Today we see, bogus gurus, priests and wealthy citizen, who may be connected via linage to brahmins, claiming that they are brahmins. This is not to be understood as the varnashrama system put in place by God.

I haven't studied Indian culture as much as I should, probably because there isn't enough readily available information on the subject. I had only known a little about the occupational classes, never the spiritual. I do have a question about Arabic and Indian customs that I have not yet had answered. I thought I might get some answers asking people of those cultures, but they seemed reluctant to talk. May be a religious thing, or a cultural thing for all I know, so I will ask my fellow netizens:

Is the color of the turban significant?

Is the color of the turban significant?

Truely? Not really... It has the same significance as the color of clothing you wear in this country. Like, white signifying purity, blue, peace - etc.

I am sure long time ago, people wore what looked good, then the critiques came in - so now, you have to have a reason for everything...

One of the reasons I was curious about the color of the turban is because I went to school with a guy from India. I didn't really know him, he was just in one of my classes. He always wore a light blue turban. I didn't know him well enough to ask. I should have, but we moved in entirely different circles. (Talk about castes, what about high school? What caste were you in? I was in the "Outlaw caste", left to myself except for a few others who had the patience to penetrate my leather and chrome defenses.)

When I was in high school, I had two sets of friends. One group were more physical, trouble makers (what you would call leathers and chain) and the other group were straight A students - high on the brain department. I was in the middle and got along really well with both sides - even though each group did not understand the other group...

Ever since, I pass off as either compasionate conservative or a conservative democrat - depending on the issues at hand.

The turban kid you reffered to could be from the Sikh religion group. Many hundred years ago, when Akbar and other Moslems invaded India, the Indians could not fight a regular war. So they created a guerrilla force. To reduce inflitration by the enemy, they setup certain parameters such as uncut hair (you can not grow hair overnight), a metal bangle that you wear such that as you physically grow, the bangle size ratio to your palm changes (again it is difficult to fake) and some other stuff. Over the years, the whole group developed as a philosophy of living and now is considered a full fledged religion.

Today Sikhs are highly industrious, and a very high quality community both in India and in US. In general, they are a peace loving group and very ferocious fighters if backed into a corner. I have a lot of respect for that group.

Originally posted by Oxygen
Private chat room. Cool. Back to the subject of Afghanistan, I've been hearing about a lot of draconian laws enacted by the Taliban. I'm a student of propaganda and tend to take such things skeptically. Has anyone verified that things such as the death sentence if you don't have the proper beard length are true or not? I'm having a hard time swallowing that one. I know traditional Islamic laws tend to be strict, but this one sounds a little over the top.


There is no such punishment in Islam if one shave his beard. And neither there are any punishments for if women doesn't cover her full face. They are all men made, Ilitrate and ignorant cultures, One need to see that their one full generation never went to school no studies at all constant war for last 23 years. They hide behind religion and use it as a shield and make lame excuses to justify their wrong doings. Sad but true they really pervert Islam.

Thanks Markx. People all over have been doing this for thousands of years. More uneducated, more paranoia and more draconian.

Color of Turban?

not really.its not important.they(Sikhs off course as KM said) usually wear the one that matches with their clothes.

during marriages,they have to wear a RED turban,even in Hindu culture you have to wear a Turban,although i am unable to confirm the color.
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Not many people come here...
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Why?...i"d love to come here quite often as i can.


bye!

Km just wondering,


is Sanatana Dharma anyway related to Arya Samaj?
i mean do you worship statues,or not(like Arya samajis who dont)

just curious...


bye!

Sanatana Dharma (SD) is a philosophy. As the name implies, it means "The eternal way of life". The way of life on a micro level is to adapt your environment. On a macro level, it is the development of a way of life that lasts mankind for eternity. That does not mean, zero population growth and agarian society. The other part is understanding creation, nature and enjoying nature as Rig Veda presents. Though there is a wonderment present as to who created the creation, the search continues because, Rig Veda did not spell out specific nature and property of the creator. As you know, the word "Worship" means the reverent love and allegiance accorded to a deity, idol, or sacred object. SD only allows the reverence to mother nature and the creation and wonders about the creator. God, deity, idol and sacred objects are manmade concepts and subject to change over time.

I do not know anything about the "Arya Samaja". As the name implies, it is a group (Samaja) about the civilized (Arya) ones. Metaphorically, if they are civilized as opposed to barbaric or dravidians (south indians), they should not be worshipping idols like non-aryans.

BTW, Buddha never acknowledged the existence of a specific God. In fact he went back to the roots of Rig Veda - atleast tried to, while his followers colorized the teachings. And majority of Indians do worship many forms of deities, idols etc - it is integrated into culture mor so than it is a religion. Five hundred years from now, we will be doing the same with Easter egg hunt and rabbits and Sanata Claus. I wonder if there will be a religion that will spring up around Santa!

Hi,

the Arya Samaj people dont worship Idols.
there is a strong need for idol worship until we reach a point where we dont need any symbols for god,no imaginations etc.

And the gods that Hindus worship,except Shiva,Vishnu,Brahma are not GODd.they are programs created by Brahma(you know what i mean?;) )


bye!

No argument there...