It seems to me that America recieves its fair share of bashing on these forums. Recently its past treatment of Native Americans has come under fire, also the "racism" that is associated with the years of segregation of minorities in America. Now I am all for the discussion of Americas past mistakes, but it seem like certain people make it a point to tear down America every chance they get. Since the current focus is on the mistreatment of Native Americans, I thought that I might start a discussion on the segregation that takes place in India as a result of the Caste system. http://www.indianchild.com/caste_system_india.htm How come America recieves so much heat for its past mistakes, when other countries like India have been/are still making the same mistakes? What do you think of the Caste system in India? Is it really any different then the segregation/ racism that has occured in America in the past?
Although lightgigantic would probably be the right person to tell you, the caste system in India was not always as it is today or has been in the last 200 years. The concept of Varna was not a fixed one but was more of a social class. How it became so rigid is unknown (to me, at least, there are too many theories, but not enough evidence)
America is the home of such ideas as the bill of rights and the US constitution. although it is not a perfect country, it is a modern state by all standards advocating ideas such freedom of speech and free press. in an imperfect world, americans are doing their best to improve their country. attacking america for its mistakes, bad foreign policy etc. is not aimed to improve any of this faults, but only to increase hate towered americans as an ongoing struggle and fear for america represent. some are doing so beacuse america is the only world super power at presence, and they want to be there instead. dont take it to hurt.
The French were no more native than the English. Seriously; the caste system is atrocious. When you have to pass laws to prevent people from making them eat feces, something is seriously, seriously wrong.
Guess you haven't been to Gitmo/Abu Ghraib (forget which). They need such laws there, I hear some of them were made to eat feces. http://uwmpost.com/article/50/20/958-The-photographs-are-us
I think in this case the status is similar. Unless you know that that the prisoners have been charged for anything. The low caste people are also punished for imaginary crimes which are merely aimed at making the upper castes feel good about themselves for having the power to exploit them. Or do you feel forcing prisoners to eat feces is somehow justified?
?? Noo, I feel both are wrong. But this is about a society, not a prison of soldiers later brought up on charges.
What charges? The "punishments" given to lower castes are also based on "charges" Apparently you appear to believe charges justify force feeding feces. Interesting.
My mistake. So do you feel that these people deserve to be seperated in such a way just beacuse an ancient system depicts them as a lower class?
The ancient system does not depict them as anything. The stratification of people based on social class is a worldwide phenomenon. The rigidity of the caste system has been attributed to many things, from Indo-Aryans who entered the country (which I do not believe) and assigned themselves the upper class, to the British practice of giving special status to Brahmins, while assigning some groups as criminal and requiring them to report to the police with frequency. Some even believe the rigidity may be due to adopting the British class system which was more rigid in those days. IMO, all people deserve equal opportunity and consideration and the government of India also thinks the same. We have the highest reservation of seats in education and government employment. While less than 20 percent of the country falls under scheduled caste and tribes, our reservations reach 50% in some areas of education and employment. The problems of abuse are severe in places where both education and employment is low and the labor classes are exploited for commercial intent, for example. bonded labor, which is a major major issue in India and one that is difficult to erase unless there are alternatives available to the people. You cannot, for example, remove a man/woman/child from a job unless you have another job to offer them. The only thing which can eradicate this social sin is improved infrastructure and increased investment. Regardless of the presence of the caste system, the awareness that it is inappropriate has already spread through the country and except in some places, where cops and administration are corrupt and look the other way, it is not practiced openly. However, its a long and rocky road, and hopefully, with our burgeoning economy and the investment the government is making in the people (if you have seen the thread by Billy on the eleventh five year plan), it will get better. Its only 60 years since independence and fortunately we were lucky in our leaders who attacked this system from the very outset.
So why attack another nation striving to improve its problems with racism and segregation when your own nation suffers from many of the same issues? I just dont understand why you like to point a finger at us when your own country is responsible for varying degrees of stereotyping and segregation. I dont mind discussing American politics with you (since Americas policys are so unpopular throughout the whole world), but I dont see the reason for you to make your opinion known on issues that are entirely domestic affairs in our country, and seeingas how you are not an American citizen nor do you live in America , I find it quite annoying that you think you can tell us what we have done wrong/ are doing wrong, as if you have some vast trove of knowledge of what its like to be an American, or a native American for that matter. Knowing people who live in America does not make you an expert.
I have never believed in the illusion that society can solve its problems by itself. A classic example I can give you right now is the case of the Saudi gang rape victim, sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. Do you believe that no one outside Saudi Arabia has a right to an opinion? I welcome any opinion on the caste system, any dialogue, any political or social pressure which keeps the limelight focused on it. Unless an issue is brought into focus it slips into the shadows. I was truly surprised to learn that Thanksgiving is a celebration of Indian generosity, especially considering how they were betrayed and massacred and their culture marginalised and wiped out in several places. I think it is an insensitive celebration. That is my opinion. You may have a different one. Thats yours.
I always thought only the untouchables could touch blood. Does this make doctors untouchables? And how do untouchables in India have anything to do with prisoners in Gitmo?
It is an example of power politics, it is the same everywhere. Those with no power have no rights, no voice and are exploited with impunity I suppose a more apt comparison would be slavery, but that would be unjust to the dalits who made it.
so, are the people in India trying to change it or are they comfortable the way it is? And what about the blood thing?
I have never heard of the blood thing and as I said earlier, we are trying to change it. Its absent in cities and towns, also largely in villages with a panchayat, you're more likely to find it in smaller villages, inaccessible areas and in states where the poverty level and employment levels are low. e.g. Bihar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit
