I very much doubt if this little piece of news will have filtered to a lot of you but last night (Sat 2230hrs) Birmingham, England was hit by an IRA (=terrorist ok?) car bomb. This comes especially as Mr Blair and Mr Bush are waging war on international terrorism and are bombing Afghanistan as a result of the WTC, Pentagon and PA plane. Does this now mean that Mr Blair will be ordering the bombing of Dublin? Can I expect the sound of B52s flying over the Irish Sea.

Update: Only the detonator exploded otherwise 60 - 70lbs of explosive within the car would have caused hundreds of casualties.

Not to be pedantic but the perps in this case - most likely the 'real' IRA - have very little support in Dublin (or the North, for that matter). Of course, getting the wrong people in relation to Birmingham bombs is a bit of a tradition.

I deliberately refrained from identifying any particular wing of whatever IRA group was responsible as it matters not a single iota who was responsible - a terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist - the name is immaterial. Checking history in Eire you will find that Dublin has been hiding the IRA for many many years; as a ex soldier who served in Northern Ireland, I do believe that I know what I am talking about. (For a change!) :rolleyes: The terminology "freedom fighter"; which you have not use by the way is an analogy used by those who believe in their cause - if you do not agree with their cause (whoever it may be) then they are simply terrorists! Incidently, the car bomb failed in its mission to kill or maim hundreds of people as only the detonator went off, 60 - 70lbs of explosive failed to explode otherwise - carnage would have prevailed.

<i>"Does this now mean that Mr Blair will be ordering the bombing of Dublin?"</i>

Do all problems require the same fix?

Don't make the fringe group of the IRA and Al Qaeda the same thing. They are not.

Fighting the terrorists who have commited NUMEROUS attacks, not only Sept. 11, have to be dealt with in a strictly military fashion. I am positive that complete peace will come to the Irish and British very soon.

As for the U.S. and terrorists, I am not so sure.

OMG i see people so covered in propoganda they can no longer distinguish fact from fiction.

Don't make the fringe group of the IRA and Al Qaeda the same thing. They are not.

They are identical, the only difference is one attacks america the other attacks britan.
You the american people tell us to live with it(which we have for 60 years) and yet when your home soil is desicrated you ask for our help in afganistan and im not talking about a few missiles launched from a sub.
Nevertheless there continues to be terrorist attacks on my home soil, i wonder if the car bomb was in washington would they have the same opinion?
I very much doubt it, lets look at this from a world perspective, afganistan is a very important country in regards to its location(oil reserves in the caspian sea).
Which would make it and ideal target for an american base of operations from which they can control the price of oil on the world market, they do after all have an oil barron as president.
Now look at ireland, they have no oil and thats why noone seems to care if they kill and mame cilvilans, why should we target ireland theres no win win solution for that part of the world.
So taking this into consideration i have real doubts about america's war on terrorism, shall we rename it a war on muslim control over the worlds oil?
Because from a nutral stand point thats what it apears to be, why do you think many nations accross the world have serious doubts about this war?
During the gulf war there was no such doubts, saddam had invaded a neighbouring country with VAST oil reserves, the west couldent let him control that, fair enough and troops were sent in to free that oil up.
Nobody complained and the right thing was done, now look at this war and its a very different story.
Stop being the propoganda puppets they want you to be and open your mind.

thecurly1I am positive that complete peace will come to the Irish and British very soon. Hmm ... when has that not been said of Ireland? Follow the history back to its earliest times ... there's always something going on in Ireland. But the last 800-900 years, at least, lead me to regard such an assertion with a wary eye. I do hope you're right, sir. I do hope you're right.

BenjiThey are identical, the only difference is one attacks america the other attacks britan.
You the american people tell us to live with it(which we have for 60 years) and yet when your home soil is desicrated you ask for our help in afganistan and im not talking about a few missiles launched from a sub.
Nevertheless there continues to be terrorist attacks on my home soil, i wonder if the car bomb was in washington would they have the same opinion?You have, I believe, hit the nail squarely. While I figure peace won't come to Eire until the crown has left her entirely, such a point is beside the point.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

The IRA situation and the Afghan situation are the same! We have had, for 30 years, what America had in 1 day. There is no distinction between the two factions. Today, in Birmingham, was the 3rd bomb alert within a week. I don't know the result of tonights escapade, but the past two have been a failed car bomb and an "explosive" package. If the failed car bomb had gone off there would have been hundreds of casualties. My daughter has been caught up in two of them - disruption was caused and many many people did not get home till late.

There will not be peace in Ireland for one reason, the "terrorists" who have the guns like to play with them, no peace process is going to stop psycho's with guns.

The people of Northern Ireland DO NOT want to become part of the Republic - that is the primary reason London remains somewhat in control.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Really, I beg to differ.

Let me put this in a Yankee POV:

The IRA has never tried to completely destroy the British government, but only use the terror attacks to get the military out of N. Ireland.

Second, I don't remember them using Antrax, or four planes as guided missiles to strike the heart and sould of the UK.

Obviously the IRA terrorist activites are horrible and should stop. But the UK cannot use strictly military force to stop this. They are your citizens, many of which want peace, not war.

Those who conspire to destroy the United States are not our citizens and they do not want peace under any term. Unless that term is the toppiling of the American gov't.

Plus Britian and the Irish have come very close to sealing up a good peace plan. I believe that choosing a peaceful plan, over a violent one would benifit both parties.

This, SADLY, cannot happen with the US and the terrorists. We have exhausted our diplomatic means, and now we have to fight to survive.

I'm sorry if this sounds ultra-American, but it is my oppion.

The IRA has never tried to completely destroy the British government, but only use the terror attacks to get the military out of N. Ireland.

Don't see what difference this makes, but since you raise it - the Brighton bomb in the 80s very nearly wiped out the British cabinet as was intended, and mortars were launched at No. 10 when the Major cabinet was meeting in the ealry 90s. I think that counts.

Second, I don't remember them using Antrax, or four planes as guided missiles to strike the heart and sould of the UK.

First off - anthrax could be the work of an American, no one knows yet. Planes as missiles? Different means. A bomb went off in the heart of London in (I think) 1995. The surrounding buildings were so badly damaged they had to be torn down. Similar incident in Manchester around the same time. Different means of attack, but people still die, and havoc is still wreaked one way or the other. You insult those who die at the hands of the IRA by suggesting they go about the business of killing in a less offensive way.


But the UK cannot use strictly military force to stop this. They are your citizens, many of which want peace, not war.

Citizens in the Republic of Ireland are not British.


This, SADLY, cannot happen with the US and the terrorists. We have exhausted our diplomatic means, and now we have to fight to survive.

Hadn't noticed any had been tried. Fight to survive? Rather over-dramatic.

tiassa
You have, I believe, hit the nail squarely. While I figure peace won't come to Eire until the crown has left her entirely, such a point is beside the point.
thanx,
Tiassa

That is the point im trying to make, there are peace attemp's in ireland and the IRA have started giving up guns but the time has come for them to move to being a political organisation rather then a liberating army.
Irish Republican Army.
They need to change name to mabey the catholic nationalist party or somthing.
Thing is american politicans are saying becuse one hits america and one hits britan they deserve differing responses, rubbish, a terrorist is a terrorist no matter what country, religon or skin colour.
If you murder innocent civilians you deserve to be punished, now i have sympothy for the people of september the 11th attacks it was outragous and the perpitrators should be brought to justice, i would go as far to say that groups that hit milatry targets should not be branded with the same brush as the ones that hit civilian targets, if you kill innocence irrelivent of skin colour class cread or religon then you should be locked up and the key thrown away, hell stick em in the chair.

Thecurly1
Can i just ask do you always belive everything your told?
Do you think for one second you are told of people's real motives or indeed what really happens?
Learn to look through the obvious propoganda, i was watching the news last night and it basically was a 30 miniute pro war propoganda film with a 5 minuite story about the mass starvation the people of afganistan are about to have.
More propoganda today about daisy shredder bombs being dropped by american bombers, they are really praying the northern allience can take kabul, if it doesnt this will be a long long hard war make no mistake.
Bush is a cheap oil merchant, is was a bad collective decsion to vote him president and now he is determined to gain a strong hold in afganistan, how many NATO troops will die for oil?

Quote:- The IRA has never tried to completely destroy the British government, but only use the terror attacks to get the military out of N. Ireland. - Unquote.

Sorry Curly - completely wrong. That may have been their "publicly announced" intention years ago but completely wrong.

1. The military have ALWAYS been in Northern Ireland and have permanent barracks there, just as in the rest of the UK.

2. In August 1969 the police force in Northern Ireland asked for military help in dealing with Loyalist trouble makers, Nationalist troublemakers and to protect the NATIONALIST population from loyalist rioters. Read that again - We were there to protect CATHOLICS! By this time the IRA by name was a political organisation and the PIRA (paramilitary) was virtually non-existent. But when the troops arrived to keep the peace (Troops deployed as assistants to police not as soldiers!) the PIRA started making overtures about "invasion" and other such crap and started shooting at the soldiers from behind the skirts of the same people we were protecting. Fear was the key factor here, fear of the gunmen made the catholic population turn against us and "verbally" instead of giving the soldiers cakes and tea, we got abuse and bricks. The PIRA, through Noraid in the US, got funding for bombs and bullets with the US$ and killed and blew up soldiers and civilian alike for over 30 years now. Then, through pressure from London and Washington, the IRA came to the peace table ostensively to talk peace but with their guns behind their backs. The so called Real IRA are continuing their bombs and bullets - but are still IRA. The "thug" element of the IRA do not want peace ever - it is the nature of the beast. They want to play with their guns under the pretence banner of nationalism and "freedom" for a people who are more free now, with troops in the province, that they ever enjoyed before - and I don't mean on the loyalist side.

Let's remember one thing:

Bin Laden is trying to get a nuke.

Nuff said.

Other than Dubya's statement, what proof do you have for your statement?

Or do you have a direct line to Osama?

The subject of Ireland could be debated endlessly - there are,however,a few brief points that I would like to make for the consideration of those of you not living in England or Ireland - as I think that perhaps the full picture of events is not always given abroad.

1. The problems in Ireland are not about either side wanting a Unified Irealnd.It is still basically a religious war,with a "I hate you because you are Catholic/Protestant"mentality.

2. A Unified Ireland is not actually wanted by either side for several reasons.
Firstly. The cost.Northern Ireland is policed by over 15000 officers - all paid for by Britain.
Whenever there is a terrorist attack,the people affected are compensated financially by the British government.
It is a well known fact here that terrorist attacks on commercial property can be arranged by the owners so that they can have their shops or properties refurbished at the expense of the British government.

Secondly. Both the Catholics and the Protestants are fighting what can only be described as a "turf war".
Each making vast amounts of money by running protection rackets.
This huge income would be lost if Ireland were to be unified.

3. The Protestants call themselves "Loyalists" - meaning loyal to the British Crown - but recently,a prominent Protestant leader was asked,during an interview,if the troubles in Ireland would cease if it was requested by the Crown.
The answer was NO.
I think this shows that they are "loyalists" in name only.

In conclusion,Britain would be a lot better off financially if it were to withdraw from Ireland completely.

This all goes to prove my idea that killing everybody in Northern Ireland and repopulating it with rational people from Ireland is the only solution.

That's nonsense, Brad, and you know it.

What is the purpose behind your provocative posts? You like "stirring it up?" You like testing to see who will argue with you? How many fools can you snag today??

Bad form, Brad.

Get a grip.

Let's just put explosives on the border and blow it off from Eire. It'll become a independent state and have it's own national identity and religion. Then we can re-name it something else... any ideas?

Odin is quite right in most of his summary with the exception of this being a "religious" war. Religion is the excuse not the cause. Thanks to you for opening up the debate somewhat. As an ex soldier who did many months (38) in the Province, having worked in various jobs whereby I saw what was going on, I know this to be true. Religion is only an excuse - banish religion and you banish 99% of their excuses. I regard later mails as relatively tongue in cheek! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hi Red Devil, I didn't read the whole thread but want to say something about this ridiculous war that is going on for years now between the United Kingdom and Ireland.

I do not understand why the English and the Irish fight on. There will never come an end to that war, it is to terrible for words.

Parents take their young children to school and walk on purpose through an area where they can be attacked....
Unbelieveble, really.

All this fighting over there is so useless, only more and more killings.
All in the name of love from the great god allmighty.:mad:

All are christian, but they give it another name and some other rules and then all of a sudden there is another holy war going on which doesn't stop in a long run. For they are fighting for such a long time now.

I really think it's sad.
The children in Ireland are born and raised in a war!!!
This has to stop, immediately....it is the same god they are fighting about. Stupid fools they are.

And the carbombs are as useless as the war is...
Exactly the same.

I am very sad about this war between the UK and Ireland, always have been.
Have seen a lot about it, know a lot about it and can't understand why it goes on and on and on and on ......:confused:

There is not a war between UK & Ireland,it is a war between
Catholics and Protestants, the Catholics say that the Protestants are British,but they are Irish.
If you read my bit above you should see what I mean.
& yes Red Devil Religion is the excuse not the cause.

It seems to me that the main founding issue of the IRA was the same as that of the founding fathers of the United States of America - Independence from the greed and oppression of British colonialism. The difference is that in the case of the USA, its violent revolution for independence was comparatively short-lived due to its success.

Given the lack of success by the IRA, and the current climate against terrorism as a form of freedom-fighting worldwide, it would probably be in everyone's best interest if all parties would head for the diplomatic drawing board. The IRA would serve itself well to put its collective energies and passions into forming a global coalition of its own to gain support for its cause and the cause of citizens worldwide who find themselves in a similar position.

In the case of the current USA-led coalition, I do not see real estate as the prize being sought - at least not by the USA. The prize sought by the United States of America, once again, is the successful defense of liberty. The fight is against terrorism and the governments and organizations which knowingly harbor, finance or otherwise facilitate the terrorists' hideous deeds. It is just one of the early phases of planned coalition activity in direct response to what is viewed by many around the world as the worst single act of terrorism in the history of the civilized world.

The military action "in" Afghanistan is not a war "against" Afghanistan. It is just one phase of the fight against terrorism. It is an attempt to bring to justice the leaders of Al Qaeda, based in Afghanistan, and the Taliban who harbor them and knowingly facilitate their operations. The USA-led coalition will most likely be successful in a relatively short period of time "in" Afghanistan and in light of this discussion I am left wondering what its future plans might involve.

Who knows? Groups like the IRA might be on the coalition's schedule of activities during a later phase so this is probably a good time for them to get their collective acts together and find another way to gain support in defense of liberty.

Odin, you are very right. I didn't say it well. I have followed this for years now and I hate what is happening there.

Ireland is a big warzone, where you can be attacked at any moment.
And all that because they argue about the same d**n god, but maybe that is now an excuse, it is the main reason.

Oh that stupid religion. All that holy wars about one and the same god, but with a little other rules and they give themselves another name......

I am getting stir crazy from this. But I guess they love it to do hurt to eachothers feelings and let the children be born and raised in a warzone, so they know from baby on, they have to fight when they are older.

Don't you think that is rather sad???

And they keep on going fighting, never ever will they stop.
Always a new there are carbombs planted in the Uk by the IRA or other terrible killings in Ireland.
This war drives me crazy, I know some humans who have to live in Ireland because they are born there and can't just move away like that.
But this humans don't want to fight, but so now and then they are attacked, all of a sudden. If they are going home from work, they really have to watch themselves closely. They never know what will happen....

It makes me feel so sad, it doesn't have to be like this.....

Wished it would come to an end...but it looks like there will never be an end.
This stupid war is going on for so very long now, they won't stop, not in a long run I am afraid.

Well, I hurt for them, the ones who don't want to be in this war, but who are because they have no choice.....

The problems between the UK and Ireland have nothing to do with the "greed and oppression of British colonialism".
It seems completely obvious that you have totally failed to grasp the main point I was making in "Another View", - which is that the British government do not want to control Ireland - and would be a lot better off financially if they could just walk away.
In point of fact,there was a time when Britain requested the UN to police Ireland,instead of British troops - but this move was refused by the Irish.
So real estate is really not the issue here.
My entire statement was an attempt to update the eighteenth century ideas of "British colonialism"still held by many Americans!

I am pleased to see that we agree about this!
:D :D :D

Thank you for your reply Odin.

It is really a big deal to me, this rotten war there which never seems to end. And I can imagine very well how it is to look at this ridiculous war living in the UK yourself.

Hope you never will get caught in the middle of such dumb IRA carbomb or whatever evil they are doing in your hometown and the rest of the countrie. For it is so useless...

Really, it looks like they just do it for the fun of it nowadays, both IRA and English troups situated in Ireland.

It makes me feel so sorry. :(

Good luck to you, live your life in peace if possible, that feels a lot better too.
Wish they came to that conclusion in Ireland. For the country itself goes to pieces, hurt to Earth and the humans who won't have a chance.

Again, thank you for your reply, it is nice to talk about this to someone, I really care a lot and feel very sorry for the humans who have to live that way over there...

Odin,

***The problems between the UK and Ireland have nothing to do with the "greed and oppression of British colonialism".***

I can't say that I completely disagree with you because my post spoke to the origins of the IRA. History. That was then.

***It seems completely obvious that you have totally failed to grasp the main point I was making in "Another View"***

Here, I disagree with you because I did not see "Another View"

*** - the British government do not want to control Ireland - and would be a lot better off financially if they could just walk away.***

Again, I can't say that I disagree with you because this statement speaks to a more current UK. This is now.

I'll try to find "Another View" and will expand on the historical vs the current situation when I return. Who knows??? It might end up being that we actually agree on certain matters.

Red Devil wrote:

The so called Real IRA are continuing their bombs and bullets - but are still IRA. The "thug" element of the IRA do not want peace ever - it is the nature of the beast. They want to play with their guns under the pretence banner of nationalism and "freedom" for a people who are more free now, with troops in the province, that they ever enjoyed before - and I don't mean on the loyalist side.

~~~

Another view...

Interesting perspectives from most everyone, but I think Red Devil has hit one important nail on the head, and his comments led me to think more (and again) on the complexities of the situation.

There’s no question that acts of terrorism by both sides have been carried out and that terrorism on any soil is a problem that needs a solution. To find a solution one typically needs to define the root of the problem.

What is the true source of the “Conflict” in Ireland?

...the nature of the beast...

~~~

Bear with me a bit on this? Been a while since I turned my mind to this topic.

Historically, traditionally, the people of Ireland have been ‘raised’ to have varying beliefs in the supernatural--be it in faeries or god(s). Not every single person has, of course, but such beliefs are deeply ingrained in the “collective” psyche of this group and was in its ancestors‘ minds, too. And core beliefs such as these affect all aspects of the way humans think and act, as well as how a nation develops.

In the past, those who understood just how powerful a weapon or tool religion (or faith-based ideologies) could be wasted few opportunities to use them in Ireland. A devious tactic used the world over throughout our history. They took advantage of a vulnerable and already uneasy collective mind and tore it asunder--first when they introduced Christianity, and later when various ones drew up distinct battle lines between Catholics and Protestants.

(I don’t claim that the introduction of Christianity was an all bad thing. It was a step up from the type(s) of paganism that had ruled previously. The bad/sad thing is what actually developed from this introduction. Man has sometimes grown past his encounter with Christianity to become something more like a free thinker, but this was scarcely the case in Ireland for most of the inhabitants.)

Many of the folk who aided this ‘conversion’ to Christianity in earlier times were British, (not all), but it’s reasonable to say that more, over time, were actually Irish.

It was/is traditional in Ireland to tell tales --stories-- and to fabricate and to promote any view or idea one wished to see become popular. Important: Storytelling (true or false stories...remember “blarney?”) has been an inextricable component/characteristic of the Irish culture. This is also true of other cultures, especially of those that have arisen in the Middle East. Certainly true of places like Afghanistan. Thus, various individual’s or group’s quests for power and control (motivated by political, financial, and personal reasons) took over what was already ripe for becoming exactly what it has become: a hotbed of conflict.

Btw... Where did the original Celts come from? Many could trace their roots back to the early, early, early Middle East. The world’s most well known hotbed for political and religious conflicts. In the Middle East, and among various “tribes,” children are reared to live their lives in conflict. A primary way of teaching them to do so is through storytelling. Slanted stories. They know their history over there. They don’t necessarily know the truth.

Ireland today is not as vulnerable in this way as it once was, not by a long shot. But there are still lingering pockets of "infected" mentality. And those in Ireland who have the task of dealing with this are not far enough removed from it. They are subject to peer pressure. They are subject to bombings and death. The need to survive amongst the enemy, and this dictates how they address (or not) these problems or the causes of said problems.

~~~

In the days of Cromwell and even long before, the British (and others) looked down on the Irish people. The Irish were thought of as uncouth, pagan, and just plain ol’ not-up-to-snuff.’ (The French thought the same thing about the British; the Italians scoffed at the French, the Spanish disdained all, but nevermind...) By British standards, the majority of the Irish were condemned as scarcely human and they were often treated like animals and worse.

Fact is, many of the Irish people were less civilized, less educated, less worldly in those days. As a nation or as a ’country’ Ireland’s development has been different than most others. The island was somewhat isolated and was not as often influenced by the rest of the world as was, for example, the greater isle of Great Britain. New or progressive “ideas” did not flourish there for many long years. It did not pay to accept new ideas. Making a poor living that was already (in their minds) heavily influenced or pre-ordained by one set of supernatural forces or another was difficult enough. ===> “If you force us to revere the name of your god we will, but we’ll also do our best not step on any faeries when we sweep the cottage floor...”

Fear and ignorance has had an incredibly strong hold on the collective mind of this ‘nation’ for most of it existence. And because of this they were often treated inhumanely. Whether or not they deserved it is beside the point and isn’t likely to be useful in finding a solution at this stage of the game.

~~~

Ireland has suffered. Agriculturally, the land in Ireland has always had limited uses. Catastrophic famines scarred the population in many ways. Economically, Ireland was seriously crippled time and again. In general, the Irish people have withstood what for many have seemed like endless hard times. No food, no income, poor or no prospects for young people, and a lifetime of labor/efforts for the older people brought to naught. Devastating blows that have affected the way a person views his fellow man, his neighbor, his government, the world, and Life in general.

With so few options, many did turn to guns. --Or, as Red Devil put it, to playing with guns. They gave in to the warring mindset, or they took refuge in the war-loving mindset. Some might make a convincing argument for why they did (or do) this, but others simply took the easy way out. The quickest way to make a little money and to get a little revenge--against whatever one believed was oppressing them--was to align one’s self with the local IRA group.

Every human needs a sense of power and control over their life--to some degree. If they don’t think they have it, or have enough of it, they will seek it by utilizing whatever methods are most handy or even just what is available. To be without this sense of power or control is to be in a state of helplessness. In such a state, one’s survival, on multiple levels, is threatened. In the case of Ireland, many have felt like they were left with a choice of evils. Over time, many no longer cared and resorted fully to warring or terrorism. Us against them. It was all madness, so why not implement yet more madness? Many a young Irish male have seen the “prospects” of a future that was not worth fighting for. The recourse then (in lieu of committing suicide) was to fight against something...anything...even everything!

~~~

So now we have old grudges and new grudges combined. Inbred “mindsets,” or slow-to-die “beliefs.” Lines between issues have faded. Fear in one form or another has been rampant. Pain, guilt, shame... all of which can fuel stubbornness. Ignorance... Many people on both (or any) sides don’t even know why they eat the brand of breakfast cereal they do every morning, much less why they’re fighting for or against the IRA, Religion, Terrorism.... All they do know is that there are means (and relatively easy means sometimes) to acquire some of the control and power we all desire; they perceive that there are plenty of seemingly appropriate antagonists to label as targets. Therefore: “Life sucks. Damn the torpedoes. Fire away!”

Others have just accepted that this conflict is actually only about this thing or that. The bigger picture is too big for them to contemplate. (I understand and can empathize.)

~~~

Odin and Red Devil seem to have some useful inside knowledge of this situation. They’ve brought up some important things to consider, in my opinion.

Yet there are layers upon layers of things that need to be understood and addressed with these kinds of conflicts, and rightly or wrongly the British will have to be involved to some degree with helping to put things ‘right.‘ Other nations can also help. Perhaps a few should help in limited capacities. But the first step, I honestly think, will involve helping everyone to better understand what has happened in Ireland and the U.K., and all of the reasons why it‘s happened. I’m grateful that such a task does not fall on my shoulders.

Finally, (yes, I hear the cheers!! lol!) I know that there are plenty who will dismiss some or all of this as irrelevant, or even as hogwash. But I respectfully disagree.

Food for thought.

~~~

Peace,

Counterbalance

You are missing the point. The people of both Southern Ireland (Eire) and the people of Northern Ireland do NOT want unification. In a free referendum in BOTH countries the result was over 90% NO. Dublin acknowledged this and removed the "unification" clause from its constitution. In return, London agreed to let the province rule ITSELF. And that is where we are now, except the IRA will only participate without disarming, which is of course unacceptable. Now Gerry Adams, the Sein Fein (Political wing of the Provisional IRA - the baddies!) has asked his own side to disarm now. The Official IRA, on the other hand, has been purely a political organisation for many many years and these "troubles" do not involve them. The declared aim of the PIRA is re-unification but they are the only ones who want this, they are in a miniscule minority, but carry such a weight only because they back it up with terror tactics and guns and bombs - funded by the USA people (NOT Government). The other baddie is the "Real IRA" which refused to cease fire when PIRA did, renewed its terrorism with the very public bombing of Omagh with such a loss of life due to them deliberately telling the police that the bomb was NOT where it was, causing many casualties. Even the PIRA, eventually, shopped them to the authorities. Dont be misguided by talks of "freedom fighters" and "independence" and comparing them to the US struggle for independence - nothing could be further from the truth. They are thugs and psycho's with weapons who think of it all as a "game" and YOU are funding them.

page.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4476&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Please also read Red Devil's reply to you.
:)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1681000/1681413.stm

:confused: :mad: :confused:

Too terrible for words...

I have only tears for them...

This is what I meant in the two former posts...NO CHOICE!!!!!

Please do read the link Odin gave here.

Thank you for that link above, it more than proves my point, don't you think.

Red Devil, it did proof your point yes.

Is that where you were after?

It is really to terrible for words. What does it matter if it proofs your point. I know perfectly well you are right about this, but oh, what a terrible feeling this gives.

All that hurt and pain, families torn apart....

What can we do to stop this, for it has to stop.

Sorry, it is not meant to hurt your feelings Red Devil, I only get so desperate of reading this and there is not a thing you or I or any one else can do to stop it, but the stupid killers themselves.:confused:

Tears are burning in my eyes and rolling down, for there is nothing I can do and I have friends in Ireland and I am so afraid for them also.

Guess it is a very sensitive situation to me...

Are there others that I'm unaware of? It seems to me that fighting against imperial occupation in this day and age is rather silly as those that can occupy as such entirely outgun the people that would dispute them.

It is sad that there was ever a need for the British to take over part of Ireland and the Irish armed response, but I for one understand the frustration of the IRA more so than the British as they are an occupying force no matter what their rhetoric or self-percieved purpose.

It obvious that you have not read any of this thread,from what you have said.

I have my own thanks. Armed response to occupation is more than justified and Direct Action has been the most expeditious in the past but now in light of this it may be nothing more than mere folly. I just wish they had more popular support worldwide and maybe they could of through the weariness of war and bloodshed had come to a peaceful accord. That is doubtful now as the disparity economically and socially between then and now is rather large. These gestures of peace from both sides are only that and once this "war on terror" like the "war on drugs" becomes tiresome for the countries that support it for kicks, politics, and/or for raping the resources of some 3rd world country it will all come crashing down.

Technology makes fatality as a purpose easier and easier year to year. The US, piss on everyone bully of the moment and the UK, small fry kick them in the groin team are becoming rather predicatable in their methods for disguising bad foreign policy. Don't be surprised when it comes to millions dead for billions in profit from wholesale slavery and exploitation. Just desserts, "Old boy".

Well I read most of it but I'm still not swayed to your opinion
I have my own thanks.

Even if it disagrees with 99% of the opinion of the Irish,North & South.
Do not forget this is about Ireland & not Palestine.

& the old boy comment,I can not help old age,we all get there in the end.

I respect wisdom not age. You seem well off with your own set of principles that I assume you garnered from a plethora of objective/subjective expierences. I know people that I've met IRL in northern ireland on both sides British Soldier/Irish Anarchist. Not exactly my dearest friends but people I care about none the less. I know its not palestine but still I worry about the escalation. Civil and war are such terrible companions.

We can agree that its all about the acceptance of differing attitudes about the "enemy" and "threat", right? I'm just sick of people dying that I worked so hard to meet. Lost a friend's brother in palestine last winter and he had gone missing as well, back now, but different more militiant, sorta scary.
Peace.

I did not ask for your respect,how could I,you do not know me.

The old boy does refer to my age,not that I have a plumb in my mouth,I felt awkward with junior member.

I too am sick of hearing about people dying.

They had a referendum in Ireland,& 99% north/south voted against unification.

More's the pity!

I think the UK should leave & let them stew in there own brew.

So what do you suggest the UK should do about it????

Lets see how much Wisdom you have!

Linzeal, be welcome at Sciforums.

You seem to have good discussion points, but we are specifical talking about the situation between Ireland and the United Kingdom.

I suggest you read some other Topics in which you can find a lot of posts about how useless and rotten all these raging wars are, going on here on Earth. They are all that ridiculous as the one going on between Ireland and the U.K.

All hurt and pain to humans feelings, all useless killings and all about god. Read some more Topics please.

Odin, do you really think it is a good plan to leave the Irish humans all to themselves?

What will become of them then? An isolated Island which slowly disappears in the dark mist of raging tanks, bullets and screaming? Can't you hear the humans scream for help and from pain?

And then again, I don't believe this stupid New IRA guests will stay away, even if you should leave Ireland alone and let them solve this rotten situation they are in. For the Irish government can't stop the real terrorists here. It is a poor country and they don't have enough equipment to find the real terrorists among them. They come and go and do their 'stuff' whenever it pleases them.
And it pleases them alright, for otherwise they should disarme themselves NOW, right away...

Guess they enjoy it to kill and destroy families and women and children.

Do you have any ideas then?

Please let me know, for I am interested in this...

Have you actually read ANYTHING I have written, you give the appearance of belonging to another universe. let alone another planet? In one breath you claim to have an affinity with cold blooded butchers; and then you call them Irish Anarchists. Before you reply to this post, read, or read again, my mail regarding the reasons the Government in London felt it necessary to send in soldiers as "back up" to the police in Ulster. It was never intended as an "occupying force" or suchlike; it was meant to calm things down, get people talking again, and then pull out. The fact that we have always had barracks there is the same as for the remainder of the UK. As you seem to prefer anonimity, I have no idea where you live but, say for example you lived in North Carolina - Do you want to see Fort Bragg closed down due to the fact that "there are some damn yankees" amongst the soldiers stationed there? On some subjects, like my arguements with Tony1 on religion, I can only express my opinion of the matter, but in this case I speak from months and months of FIRST HAND experience - of being there, of being car bombed, of being mortar bombed, of being shot at - now, unless you can speak an honest opinion based on fact, please return to your Play Station and rid the earth of aliens!!

I totally agree with Red Devil.

Linzeal, I have another one for you.

Ever heard of the song 'Sunday, Bloody Sunday...'??? by U2.

In case you are disable to listen to Music. Buy a cheap tape player, you can download the song even from the Internet. They play it for over 20 years now and keep on playing it til today at every Concert they give..

FILL IN EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK and play it, for years and years and years and years and years and years...

Internet News: 30 Dec 2001.
The Provisional IRA remains a terrorist organisation and its members cannot be regarded as freedom fighters, Peter Mandelson has said.

The former Northern Ireland Secretary was acting to clarify remarks made on a TV programme in which he suggested that terrorists might be seen as freedom fighters if they moved away from violence and become involved in "some sort of political or peace process".

He has now made clear that he did not believe the IRA could be classed in this category.

Mr Mandelson said: "The assertion that the Provisional IRA should be regarded as freedom fighters is not a view I expressed in the programme and is not what I believe. I regard the Provisional IRA as a terrorist organisation, as I said in terms during the course of the programme.

"Of course, the Provisional IRA is on ceasefire and is engaged in a peace process and is represented in democratic political institutions, as I also remarked. But that does not make them freedom fighters and never will."

On Channel 4's The Year The World Changed, Mr Mandelson was asked to respond to a suggestion that the al-Qaida terrorists might be seen in a different light to other terror groups, who former US national security advisor Robert McFarlane suggested could sometimes be seen as freedom fighters.

He responded: "I think the distinction we have to make is not between good and bad terrorists. It is between those terrorists who have political objectives and are prepared to negotiate those objectives at the end of the day and engage in some sort of dialogue and ultimately some sort of political or peace process.

"I don't call them terrorists when they reach that stage. They are resisters. They are freedom-fighters, or whatever."

Asked whether this formula would lead him to categorise Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams as a "freedom fighter", Mr Mandelson said: "I don't want to label Gerry Adams.

"But he is tied to the IRA, a terrorist organisation or a paramilitary organisation which is engaged in a ceasefire, which is committed to a peace process, whose political representatives take part in political institutions, and that's the difference."

The first time this guy has ever said anything remotely sensible!! This is the guy who was responsible for the Millennium Dome in London which ate millions of our money before the government gave up on it! A terrorist however, is always a terrorist, no matter what side of the political divide they are on. Gerry Adams WAS a terrorist, may still be a terrorist, still holds "rank" within the PIRA, but at present, is pursuing the political solution - which, of course, is the only way to peace. :rolleyes:

Linzeal "Technology makes fatality as a purpose easier and easier year to year. The US, piss on everyone bully of the moment and the UK, small fry kick them in the groin team are becoming rather predicatable in their methods for disguising bad foreign policy."

So we are small fry eh? Maybe geographically we may be so, but at least we had the guts to (1) Take on Germany alone in WW1; Take on Germany and stand alone in WW2 until the USA got off their isolationist pedestals; Take on Communism in Malaya - alone; Fight terrorism in Aden - alone; Protect a few people living on some islands in the South Atlantic - alone; protect the catholics in Ulster against serious aggression - alone. And now you accuse the UK of being a "groin kicker" - I suggest you look at the policy of your own country through the years before taking on something you obviously know very little about. When we were looking after Palestine, we were fighting Israeli terrorists - alone; then big brother USA came along and ordered us to relinquish control so that the poor jews could have a homeland. It was always an Arab land, not jewish, and the USA had no right to bully it from UK/arabs. By the way, on the one occasion you did get off your butts to help us, Granada, it was mutual interest that caused the Marines to get sent in - it SERVED THE US interests to do so. Due to politics these days, our fighting forces may be greatly reduced, our naval forces virtually non existent and our air force begging for fuel, but that does not stop the spirit we have always shown - backs against the wall? Thats when we can, and do, fight and fight hard. :rolleyes: How so is our foreign policy so bad - apart from the fact that we give billons we can ill afford to equally unaffording nations?

I normally ignore this kind of thing but the nonsense currently
being spouted by this so-called 'Red Devil' individual simply
cannot go unchallenged. I am flabbergasted that someone who
has actually done a tour of duty in Northern Ireland - allegedly -could return home having learned absolutely nothing. A logical
extension of his argument would be the Spanish government
bombing Paris in response to the latest ETA attack - or indeed
the UK government flattening Athens in response to the recent
terrorist attacks on British diplomats.

Some home truths, and rest assured this is quite representative
of Irish public opinion:

*

Originally posted by Ciúnas
I am flabbergasted that someone who has actually done a tour of duty in Northern Ireland - allegedly -could return home having learned absolutely nothing. A logical extension of his argument would be the Spanish government bombing Paris in response to the latest ETA attack:

Hello Ciunas. Firstly, you should not take the original title of my post as literal. It was never intended to be and nobody else, in the whole sciforums setup, thought so. Secondly, by your choice of name (gaelic) and your location (Dublin) I detect a massive bias in favour of the Irish Nationalist Movement, or at least in your Celtic past (of which you should be proud but not bigotted). I am of Irish ancestry and served in the British Army in Ulster. Have you ever been to Ulster during the troubles? Have you met the beautiful, friendly people who make up BOTH sides of the divide in Ulster? Do you have any loyalist friends in Ulster? Have you walked the streets of Belfast and met those same friendly people in live person to person conversation? I have and it was such a beautiful place we almost settled there (I had my family with me). I know from first hand experience about Ulster; I served long enough there. I have been car bombed, mortar bombed, etc etc and it did nothing to diminish my love of the place. Read all the mails on this subject before you feel obliged to pass comment on a tongue in cheek title. Thank you.:rolleyes:

FAO red devil

Have you ever read about the history of Ireland?
You seem like an uneducated twat.
Your monarchy is just like a dictatorship but you all love it.
If you people read about the history of Ireland then you will find out that the english/british are the real terrorists.

Tiocfaidh Ár Lá

First of all may I start by saying that it is apparently clear that many who have posted on this subject have no real knowledge of the situation we find ourselves in, in Ireland.

Red Devil, not for one minute do I believe that you served with a British regiment in my country, if you did then the arrogance of the British Army is still in tact with folk like yourself.

"Britain has no right in Ireland, never has had any right in Ireland and never can have any right in Ireland!!!!!" James Connolly 9 May 1916, Crumlin Jail, Dublin Division IRA

Surley to say that the IRA are terrorists is a complete contradiction, after all was it not Britain who forced herself upon Ireland.

You say that the IRA have butchered, murdered and maimed people in an effort to enhance their position.

I put to you the names of Mairead Farrell, Sean Savage, Daniel McCann, Jim Lynagh, Declan Arthurs, Seamus Donnelly, Tony Gormley, Eugene Kelly, Paddy Kelly, Padraig McKearney and Gerard O'Callaghan, collectively known as the Gibraltar 3 and the Loughall Martyrs all shot dead by Britains Shoot to Kill Policy.

Also if you add in the names of Danny Docherty, Willie Flemming, Aiden McAnespie and Pearse Jordan, there seems to be a familiar pattern here.

Not forgetting those who where craelly assasinated in Derry, 1972 during Bloody Sunday.

Also there where numerous times when the British Army had set up the murders of many Catholics and republicans by leaking information to Loyalist Death squads.

As a republican, then I'm bound to jump to the defence of my coutrymen and commrades, however as a supporter of the provisional movement then I fully respect that the people of my country want peace and respect what they voted for pre the the Good Friday Agreement and if this means distancing myself from renegade factions the I intend to do so.

I think that it is quite apparent that the Volunteers of RIRA who most probably played a part in this car bomb have very little support within the republican community.

I also believe that actions such as the Provisional IRA goinginto Twinbrook a few months back and orderin a cessation of all activitiy by the CIRA show our committment to peace, this in turn with us decommissioning our weapons.

Remember we are doing all this in the face of adversity when outr community is under seige everynight from loyalist mobs, I point you to recen going-ons in the Short Strand in East Belfast if you are looking for proof of such events.

Welcome to sciforums, The Armagh Bandit.

To be honest, I know little of the feud between British and the IRA. All I hear is the standard news line given the public.

I do not support the blowing up of buildings and the indiscriminate killing of innocent people.

The way to change things is from within. Through the laws and rules and the government bodies that make and change these rules.

The killing of innocents will do nothing except make the list longer of those who fought and died trying to change what they can not change through violence.

Originally posted by The Armagh Bandit
First of all may I start by saying that it is apparently clear that many who have posted on this subject have no real knowledge of the situation we find ourselves in, in Ireland.

Red Devil, not for one minute do I believe that you served with a British regiment in my country, if you did then the arrogance of the British Army is still in tact with folk like yourself.

"Britain has no right in Ireland, never has had any right in Ireland and never can have any right in Ireland!!!!!" James Connolly 9 May 1916, Crumlin Jail, Dublin Division IRA

Surley to say that the IRA are terrorists is a complete contradiction, after all was it not Britain who forced herself upon Ireland.

You say that the IRA have butchered, murdered and maimed people in an effort to enhance their position.

I put to you the names of Mairead Farrell, Sean Savage, Daniel McCann, Jim Lynagh, Declan Arthurs, Seamus Donnelly, Tony Gormley, Eugene Kelly, Paddy Kelly, Padraig McKearney and Gerard O'Callaghan, collectively known as the Gibraltar 3 and the Loughall Martyrs all shot dead by Britains Shoot to Kill Policy.

Also if you add in the names of Danny Docherty, Willie Flemming, Aiden McAnespie and Pearse Jordan, there seems to be a familiar pattern here.

Not forgetting those who where craelly assasinated in Derry, 1972 during Bloody Sunday.

Also there where numerous times when the British Army had set up the murders of many Catholics and republicans by leaking information to Loyalist Death squads.

As a republican, then I'm bound to jump to the defence of my coutrymen and commrades, however as a supporter of the provisional movement then I fully respect that the people of my country want peace and respect what they voted for pre the the Good Friday Agreement and if this means distancing myself from renegade factions the I intend to do so.

I think that it is quite apparent that the Volunteers of RIRA who most probably played a part in this car bomb have very little support within the republican community.

I also believe that actions such as the Provisional IRA goinginto Twinbrook a few months back and orderin a cessation of all activitiy by the CIRA show our committment to peace, this in turn with us decommissioning our weapons.

Remember we are doing all this in the face of adversity when outr community is under seige everynight from loyalist mobs, I point you to recen going-ons in the Short Strand in East Belfast if you are looking for proof of such events.

I am delighted to hear you say you are for peace - thats what we all want irrespective of sides, convictions, bias whatever you want to call it. I did serve in Ulster, 2 x 18 months and 1 x 4 months. Nobody in this sorry conflict is blameless least of all the terrorist movements of both sides. To say that the Army is equally to blame I don't think for one minute that the Army is entirely faultless but I cannot answer that unless you are privy to certain information that I am not. Let us remember that the Army was sent in, not as an "occupying" force but as Assistants to the Police who were also not blameless. It was supposed to be to restore order and then withdraw - unfortunately your republican PIRA, which was almost non existent in '69, took it upon themselves to be the unelected voice of the Nationalists and "took on the Army" thus extending the Army's role in the Province to what History shows was a long and bloody conflict.

When I was there in '72 a referendum was held to decide the future of the Province - Nationalists for whatever reason, refused to vote - to let their voice be heard - therefore the democratic result was over 90% in favour of remaining part of the UK. Before I go on, might I add that my grandparents, I believe, orginated in the "south" therefore I am relatively proud of my probable celtic background. However I was born and raised in England and thats where my loyalties lie. Personally I would not mind if Ireland became "whole" again but until it is the will of the majority of both the North and the South this will not happen.

Your political views, like most Republican supporters, are clouded by historical fact and fiction. I am right down the middle and do not understand how anyone can be so cold blooded in their pursuit of "political" gain. The ballot box NOT the gun is the only way to solve this - not to mention getting rid of the religious bigotry on BOTH sides.

I have stood on Donegal Street ( memory is clouded - by the City Hall Belfast) and looked along the road at all the people shopping. I said to my wife, look - can you tell the difference? No, she replied, they all look the same. Exactly I said, they are. Until they finish their shopping, then one "faction" goes left towards West Belfast and the other turns right, towards East Belfast. That is the only way you can tell them apart!!

England never had a shoot to kill policy - I can vouch for that. When we were "on the streets" we were all told in no uncertain terms just what the rules where - we had a card on which was printed exactly what to do in the event of an "incident" and it specified that under no circumstances were soldiers to shoot without first giving a triple warning. Although I was in Ulster during "Bloody Sunday" I took no part in it, being elsewhere. I do not know the circumstances involved so I cannot answer that - neither I suspect where you - therefore you views are on what you were TOLD and not necessarily what happened.

With regards to Twinbrook, which I knew nothing about, and your "decommissioning" of weapons - what percentage of weapons have been handed over? Somehow I think it will not be a large number.

If you peace intentions are honourable then you are to be commended - as are all factions who genuinely want peace - this is the only road to travel. Neither of us will win an arguement or discussion in here as you are ( I was going to say brainwashed but thats not quite correct) brought up to believe only one version of History - the Republican version. I, on the other hand, am open minded enough to know that History is written in the eyes of the writer - it is not necessarily the facts - either side or any other side for that matter.

Without hatred, without bigotry and with genuine hopes for a peaceful long lasting settlement let all sides now go forward and gain something the whole of Ireland craves - no conflict and a peaceful co-existence.

The people of Ireland are a warm genuinely lovely race - some have made it a battleground from hell - there was no mention above of the soldiers shot in the back, from hidden positions, of soldiers killed for "just doing a job" - thats all it was nothing sinister, nothing imperialist - just ordinary lads doing a job - remember this - when the Army first went in in '69 it was to protect the Republican people from the bigotry of the Protestant people - then your people turned on us and the conflict started.

The only hope for an everlasting glorious peace in Ireland lies in your own hands - the people of Ireland.

Quote: Have you ever read about the history of Ireland?
You seem like an uneducated twat.
Your monarchy is just like a dictatorship but you all love it.
If you people read about the history of Ireland then you will find out that the english/british are the real terrorists Unquote.

First of all why the insults? You are laying yourself open to ridicule before I even reply?

1. I do not give a damn for Irish History or any history for that matter from a personal point of view - I was not there! You blame me for something that happened 400 bloody years ago? You blame me for what happened at the turn of the 20th Century? You blame me for The Maze? You blame me for Bloody Sunday? You blame me for what happened to you namesake?

2. Insults mark the uneducated man - they always resort to insults to try to prove they are "better, more macho" - it does not work.

3. The British in Ireland were not blameless a HUNDRED years ago, I would be the first to admit that; the same 400 years ago. But why do you all persistently live in the past?

4. How many soldiers, normal lads doing a job, died since '69 to "prove" that your side was right? How many "Irish" soldiers died since '69 to prove you are right?

5. If you want to even bother to read replies from an ex soldier - read my reply to the Armagh Bandit - at least he is intelligent enough to recognise that peaceful co-existence is the only way forward. The days of the GUN are over my friend - lets go forward peacefully together - without resorting to petty insults.

Red Devil, I'm sorry I can't acept your argument about ordinary lads just doing a job, the British Troops that where killed during the past 30 years of the conflict, where in my opinion legitimate targets.

Lets not forget that the British Troops, where the opressors of my people and have taken part in the brutal murders of the Irish people.

Also may I add I'm not brainwashed nor do I see the conflict through my Republican shades, I try to make my assesements based on what I have seen and have been involved in.

The bottom line is this is a conflict that has been going on for more than 700 years, its only that over the last 30 years that its escalated into what we now have. At the end of the day the 6 counties is part of Ireland and it doesn't matter how you try and potray the situation, Britain is in the wrong.

I point you to the conflicts between Israel and the Palestine, India and Pakistan and again you will see a familiar pattern unfolding, Britain as a colonial power was involved in the organisation of land boundaries and look at the war that is tearing the people of these countries apart.

Also may I add that the squaddies going into Ireland are under orders I appreciate that, however before they sign up they are well aware that the chances of them going into Ireland are and the possible pitfalls that face them.

It may also be worth noting that many who join the Brits are Scottish lads, who have been brought supporting the murder and torcher of innocent Catholics through their support for Rangers Football Club and the Orange Order. This is common occurence in Scotland and it is probably the boiggest loyallist free state outside Ulster itself. Just the other day a man from Larkhall (orage district) was released from court after beeing arrested umder PTA 2000 for flying a UFF flag from his house window, his excuse was it was in support of the Orange Order and Rangers he "was just flying the colours".

NOw maybe if that was a young lad who never knew any better but this was a 36 year old man, who new exactly the flag he was flying, its not hard to recognise flags of war and no what they stand for, upon leaving court the man was spotted sporting an England jersey.

Maybe in England there is a much sheltered life to the going-ons of the people in both Ireland and Scotland and in many cases you het peopls jumping on a bandwagon who don't understand the conflict, don't understand the people and don't understand the politics.

I don't personally blame you for that, if indeed you done a tour of duty then I can only say I'm saddened that you lived to tell the tale, as I believe that any occupying force in my country is a legitimate target.

The one person who I do blame for the majority of this is MaggieThatcher, if she had not been in power and had not orchestrated many of her silly campaigns in order to keep her seat safe then I believe by now we would have had a 32 county socialist republic, without the interference of Britain.

We all live in hope of a full peace settlement, however util the powers behind unionism and loyalism grow up an start to teach their followers to live with Catholics then I fear that will not happen.

However I do believe by the time that we celebrate the 100th Anniversary of the Easter Rising we will have a United Ireland,

WE GOT 18 AT WARRENNPOINT AND MOUNT BATTEN

Originally posted by Bowser
<i>"Does this now mean that Mr Blair will be ordering the bombing of Dublin?"</i>

Do all problems require the same fix?

I was speaking figuratively - comparing the doings of the US in Afghanistan with the doings in Ireland. I did not mean lets go bomb Dublin - that is a stupid thing and of course it will never happen. This thread was originally posted during the bombing of Kabul and my comparisons was the bombing of NY with the bombing (attempted) of Birmingham and drawing an analogy of how stupid it all is. The current attempts at peace in Ireland are naturally to be applauded and I do sincerely hope it comes about - for everyone's sake. Personally I see no reason why there cannot also be an attempt at "reunification" of Ireland as long as that is what the people there want. If you have ever been to Ireland you would know what a beautiful country it really is and the people are really friendly - it is a shame that hatred on both sides of each other (In the north) spoils it..... I wish I knew the answer?

It's amazing the bile and nonsense that these so-called nationalists spout.
They support a Marxist-Leninist terror organisation with links to other similar leftist terror groups worldwide.
This organisation actively carries out murder of those who are non "Irish-Catholic" yet still give the same "innocent catholic" cry and then wash their hands of this blood just as Lady MacBeth did.
They can't get it into their skulls that we were Born in NI, we are British and we will never tolerate the creation of a United Soviet Socialist Ireland.
They talk peace yet wont step back from their demands and compromise. A compromise would be the creation of an independent state, one that is the only solution.
If necessary we will return to the gun (although nobody really wants that), but, if we have to defend our constitutional position then so be it, we forced them to call a ceasefire, we should have finished the job when we had the chance.

Firstly the Provisional wing of the IRA does not support the murder of non Irish-Catholics, the policy of sectarian killings is a loyalist thing. The reason being that loyalists like yourself have no sense of political direction, not suprising though when yous follow people like Paisley.

We do not have links to international terror groups, if you are referring to the likes of ETA and the PLO yes we support them in their struggle simply because they have suffered a similar plight to ourselves.

I don't deny you the right to say you are British but in all honesty you really are Irish, the 6 counties are Irish and the people who live on our Island are Irish.

Furthermore I believe that the Loyalist orchestrated violence in the Short Strand futher substantiates points made by myself in previous posts, we as republicans genuinley want peace. However we can not stand by and see our people murdered and terrorised by a nazi orientated organisation.

You may slate republicans for their political views and call us lefties all you want, but at leat we are not a right wing facist organisation which is over rum by xenophoebics.

I think your reply shows that you are probably a person with a higher standard of education that your loyalist compatriots however this does not in anyway hind your ignorance.

So the systematic intimidation and murder of Protestants in border regions never happened? Don't tell me that you expect me to believe the Sinn Fein revisionism and their party line of Catholic oppresion, anyone that says both sides were not involved in sectarian campaigns is telling lies.
Of course the IRA are involved in International terror, the training, cross-training and arms buying in the Bek'aa Valley and the deserts of Libya were all part of the international marxist terror ring, you conveniently left out Farc, as well as Baader Meinhoff and Red Army Faction connections, the IRA leadership were very friendly with Moscow once upon a time too.
The typical republican cries of Paisleyism and xenophobia do not wach with me, Loyalism is a broad church with many beliefs, I for one hold no truck with Paisley or for that matter the extreme-right either. But I do believe in their right to hold those beliefs, unlike Sinn Fein who wish to dictate what people think, where they work, where they school, what they believe etc, extremely Fascistic principles from an organisation that gathered information on Southern Irish Jews for the Arrival of Hitlers Facist Hoardes.
And one more thing, I visited the Lower Newton recently and could only find 1 house in the Strand with broken windows, compare that with the large number of houses in the Loyalist side with broken windows, scorch marks, paint-bomb marks, bulletholes etc, of course the 5 Protestants shot go without saying really, boys shot in the back, men shot whilst boarding up their homes and a cross-community worker shot whilst trying to talk some sense into the youths.
But again this rioting is all part of Sinn Feins greater tactic of moving the civil disturbance from area to area for maximum effect.
Republicans may be able to pull the wool over the worlds eyes, but not ours, when you handle snakes you get to understand their behaviour.