I heard this long ago, but it took me a while to come here. In 2002 Canada was estimated to have a respectable 4.8 bbl in proven reserves. Then in 2003 the figure was revised upwards to a staggering 174 billion:

As of December 2002, established recoverable reserves stood at 174 billion barrels, with ultimate recoverable reserves at an estimated 315 billion barrels, according to EUB.


If the latter figure is true, that would mean that the Canadians have even more oil then Saudi Arabia. But the problem I have with this, or rather the issue that I raise is this. It is not oil as in crude oil, but rather in the Oil Sands of Alberta and Saskatchewan. Is it as of this time economically viable to have oil sands put into mass production? I would imagine that it would take a significantly more complex process to convert the sands into oil. I would also imagine that it would be cheaper to extract then normal oil. One cannot deny that this discovery is important, but can it really translate into a massive increase in oil production?
:confused:

The fact you just realized this is appalling. The Alberta Tar Sands have always been know to hold reserves of oil overshadowing any other reserves found anywhere. The cost of extracting it hinders its viability - for now. But will most definately become a valued reserve in the future - after we suck available reserves from countries more dependant on that reserve.

The fact you just realized this is appalling.

Sir I didn't just realize this as you said, re-read what I said:

I heard this long ago, but it took me a while to come here.

The cost of extracting it hinders its viability - for now.

What could make it economically viable?

Personally to Undecided:
Next thing on US war list.... muahahahahaha

Okay, my oversight.

And I'm a little off too. The Tar Sands are, right now, economically viable. The extraction will remain economically viable as long as the price of oil stays high.

Well, it is good to know that a lot of oil is out there should you really need it in the future, but here are some concerns why we should not rush the tar sands right now:

http://www.longwaves.net/2002/msg02719.html

Here is a very interesting page about the economics of mining, describing why we might run out of gas economically before we run out of gas physically

http://dieoff.com/page143.htm

This explains, why the Dutch government , having a really large natural gas reserve, has long term contract to import some cheaper russian gas, so that we still have ez exploitable reserves when gas is getting not really scarce
, but too expensive to mine everywhere.

The oil companies are well aware of this and it's not coincidentaly that some of them are already flirting with hydrogen or renewable energysources, just to be prepared.

And what to think of Shell, claiming it can not really account for 20 percent of it's projected reserves, I think that the oil is really there, but it's in an economic sinkhole. the first signs of the Dajals return, run for the hills

I have heard about the environmental damage that all this oil extraction has done in Alberta, they did it on the CBC. Farmers are understandably angry, and this will effect the long term health of Albertans and Canadians for this oil. I just wonder how much per barrel for instance does it cost to get it from a sand based source, compared to the traditional ground based source. Oil prices are expected to go down this year, and wouldn't then Alberta have to increase its production of oil sands to keep up the economic viability?

Also about Alberta, Whitewolf mentioned a political situation. The situation being that the Americans would invade Canada, no rather I believe that the Albertans would actually do one of two things:

i) Join the US
ii) Declare independence.

If Ottawa does something that puts in jeopardy the economic viability of Alberta in the long term, I don't think the more conservative Albertans are going to stand for liberal economic policies, like in the Trudeau era. Albertans will become selfish and they will forget that they are part of a federation...

Let's see, if we were to attempt to make oil from scratch, from plants that are alive today, it has been estimated that it could cost upwards to about a billion dollars per gallon. It is a nice, very nice, source of complex carbon molecules, the basis for many synthetics, some very valuable and not had through other means. Should we really be burning the stuff?

Mr. Chips: you can get oil from many plants without much effort at all, just by squeezing them (soy/hemp/palm oil). These kinds of oil are not that different and can probably be cracked down to the lighter oils that are used in industrial processes.

Certainly there are techniques for creating longer-chain hydrocarbons from short ones like methane (which is trivial to get). There are many techniques for getting oil; most are too expensive while it can still be gotten out of the ground, but the day will come when farmed oil/grain alcohols/other forms of hydrocarbon will be inexpensive enough to be used over mined oil.

Genetic engineered crops might improve hydrocarbon yields, plasma "eat anything" combustion engine might take out the need for cracking the oils, cars skeletons from nanotubes might reduce weight drasticly, but still we yet to see some of these important breakthroughs that we have been speculating about for years already, to avoid the economic sinkhole of oil production/transport needing more oil than you actually pump up, wich is slated for around 2040 for many countries if these improvements in efficiency can not be made.

But I trust human nature here, if we feel we really need it, we will find a way

Yeah, let's go into Canada and trash the sucker. Sure, Canada has some of the greatest tourist spots in North America, but we can trash it for oil. I'm going to Canada for my vacation this year - if only to ski (or learn to), and drink alcohol. But I must say that my previous trip to the North left me in wonder.

Does Bush still want to go into the Alaskan tundra and drill for oil? If he does... I'll build an oil refinery on the lawn of the White House. Let's see how he likes his enviroment screwed with.

"But I trust human nature here, if we feel we really need it, we will find a way"
We already do need it. The hole in the ozone layer is twice the size of england, it takes a global temperature change of 9 degrees to cause another ice age, and by the end of the century at this rate it will change by 10.5 some scientists say. These wars bush is starting are causing the loss of innocent life, causing billions (upwards of 600 billion) of tax dollars paying for the military, why? corperate greed, our industry is based on the consumption of oil and for the first 50 years of industrial america the barrels of oil were a dollar a barrel, then once marijuana/hemp (the only feasable alternative) was illegal the price went up to 40$ in less then 10 years! bush has recently excluded suvs from the emmisions control acts and with 15 mpg being the average on these, toyota and gm have both said they have the technology to mass produce cars with 60+ mpg and suvs with 40+. They estimated another 280,000,000 barrels of oil being needed for all the suvs, and iraq would provide 580,000,000 more then twice what they needed! untill corperate america crumbles under its own weight every citizen in north america will be slaves to the oil monopolys that stuff our banks! while the american public is all distracted by their american idols and millionaires, toxic levels of rocket fuels are being found in california letuce, and in water all across middle america, but are required to deny any knowledge of their findings... look up the toxic emissions any wood/pulp/recycling mill creates and find out what bush has done to help? well, he has given huge tax cuts to them, dismissed laws opposing offshore factorys from dodging tax laws, in fact the riches 1% got 46% if the last tax break hes given, but you dont see this on msnbc or cbc or fox, its all just "people died here, your government saved people here, storms brewing here, stock markets up! job layoffs up! the suspect is a black male, and now a word from our sponsors." "thank you Lau Lou, and im Eric Storm, thats all for the 10 oclock news, signing off" and now its election days and, whats this?? dean completely humiliated himself, (rejoice) and kerry took the majority vote! kerry says "Americans deserve a principled foreign policy backed by an enlightened self-interest and undoubted military might" oh greeaat.. so your planning on cleaning the air, fixing our schools, giving us jobs, AND building a stronger millitary, and enforcing laws better, and giving college students a chance, all in "100 days to change america"??? this guy has more strings attached to him then a marionette, and nowhere on his site does it address marijuana issues, or gay issues, or racism... but hey, hes only potentially the leader of a country, your country. i live in canada and unforunately my economy is based on yours, my society is based on yours, my laws and beliefs.. its a shame really. Well somehow, this got way off topic. peace-
(ps just say KNOW - www.marijuana.com)

About Alaska if you really want to read it:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/future_production_ans/alaska.pdf

Although I am not sure if ANWAR oil extraction is a go? Does anybody?

1) There is a section in the Constitution (I think, or it might be another document) stating that Canada can become a state of the U.S. at any time.

2) Canada has a very poor military, they can't even fund the troops they have in Iraq.

Anyone ready for an invasion?

Joking aside, I wait patiently for the ends to meet. Once oil runs out and the environment deteriorates the future of America is an inevitable dictatorship. Only when people have their cars confiscated will they wake up to what is happening.

2) Canada has a very poor military, they can't even fund the troops they have in Iraq.

I hope this is a joke, because Canada isn't stupid enough to be in Iraq.

Joking aside, I wait patiently for the ends to meet. Once oil runs out and the environment deteriorates the future of America is an inevitable dictatorship

America doesn't have to wait until the oil runs out, China and other large developing states are going to eat more and more of the world's share of oil. I think I could soon see oil wars, or oil politics beyond measure.

Oops, my bad, not a billion a gallon, more like a million a gallon. I've seen more than one source for this but here is a quote from Buckminster Fuller, "``...We have pointed out that the geologist Francois de Chardenedes wrote for me a scenario of the technology of nature's producing petroleum which disclosed that the amount of energy employed by nature as heat and pressure for the amount of time required to produce each gallon of petroleum, if paid for at the rate at which the public utilities now charge retail customers for electricity, must cost over a million dollars a gallon. "

Yes, we can get lots of different kinds of oil from lots of different sources but the kind we get from the ground apparently is quite unique and readily converted into various drugs and plastics that are difficult to make otherwise. I am still of the opinion that our dependency on burning oil and natural gas is evidence of our lack of civilization.

I hope this is a joke, because Canada isn't stupid enough to be in Iraq.

My mistake. I meant Afghanistan. (You know, those Orwellian news stations really mess me up.)

I was under the impression that soem calculations for producing biofules from crops would need to have most of our agricultural land under crops, to replace our current oil usage. And depending on where you look, arable land is decreasing.

Sadly even with effective oil sand mining world demand for oil will exceed production by 2030.

My understanding is limited but from what I've read, biofeuls cost as much (or more) than they give, in otherwords the overall expended energy is more than what is recieved. So YAY! for the environmental side (plants=energy) but since traditional fuels are used in the processising, harvesting and planting of 'biofuels', why kid ourselves?

From what I can tell it's akin to money laundering, the same price is paid, it's just hidden.

Oil again. It seems that it has ruled our modern life for ages........

Yes, I was a bit surpised how Kerry sticked his tung deep up the millitary ass, but then I realised how much money/power they have, no matter if you are democrate or republican candidate, but Bush & Co really went overboard with giving carte blanch check (read : deficit) to their resourcehogging business associates... :rolleyes:

What about coal ?

coal is not a very inefficient transportation fuel.

i've heard coal could be processed (altered in some way) to burn much cleaner but everything I know about that can fit in one sentence. I don't even know how clean or how much energy the process requires but I'm fairly sure it can be done. Coal is a nasty buisness all around though, the mining of it it pretty messy too. Even if it can be 'cleaned' easily it's still a giant step backward in my opinion.

How close are we to actually having a hydrogen economy? As WCF as noted human consumption of oil is going to increase dramatically, China and India alone could double, or even triple it's useage over that time frame. I heard that Iceland plans to be the first totally hydro power economy, but how feasible is it for the rest of the world?

I think part of the problem is that the hydrogen is usually extracted from traditional fuels and traditional fuels are still used to power the extraction process (if I recall it's much harder to remove hydrogen from water, for example). So, at present, the hydrogen economy still relies on oil.

Coal used to be a very dirty bussiness and in many countries still is, but with the
right technology,

Zero emission coal gassification plants ?

scrubbed coal gasses as source of:
- hydrogen economy
- pure co2 for greenhouses
- nuclear fuel
- ammonia hydrates/sulfates --> fertillizers

http://www.nuclear.com/Energy_policy/Coal_gas_news.html

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

coal reserves: at least 1500 years at current usage rate.

I bet corporate america is in a big rush to use up all the oil in the world (by having the usa government sponsor SUV and oil wars), so that in 2050, the large coal reserves of USA and Canada (and the large amount of stocks in coal companies they might discretely be buying) must pay off big time, no longer need to share the loot with arab princes, OPEC ??? COALPEC !

The only fear I have is that they will postpone the really clean coalplants for another twenty years just to keep making dirty profit in the meantime.

The announcement of Bush and DOE of the billion dollar FutureGen zero emission demonstration coal plant is a good initiative, but what exactly is it worth if he doesn't take all the old dirty coalplants out of commision and also not signing Kyoto makes me have some doubts about his Clear Skies (Clear Lies?) inititiative, but let's hope i am wrong and we have a wonderfull zero emission coal economy in about twenty years....

Sadly even with effective oil sand mining world demand for oil will exceed production by 2030.
not necesarily,
all it takes is improving burning eficiency of the internal combustion engine,(which is on average about 25% eficient,3/4 of every gallon of gas is wasted as heat, :mad: )
it can be done very simply,
such as using these spherical rotary valves that can be fitted to any ICE.
and since it needs no oil changes,imagine how many billions of gallons of oil we could save :)
www.coatesengine.com.
click on news broadcast

Q25,

Actually your right... kind of. Fuel cells can be developed to run off hydrocarbons. Many soild oxide fuel cells can do this directly, I have even heard of SOFC being developed to run off coal! SOFC have the highest efficiency of all fuel cells types at 55% and 75% with turbine added to run off the out put steam. The only problem is that SOFC take along time and energy to heat up to running temps, something not good for cars (though totally fine for power plants)

as for the Spherical Rotary Valves they won't improve efficiency much the problem is simply the limitation on energy that can be extracted by combustion driven pressure (35% is theoretical max). Though I hope the best for it as the next generation of ICE.

Maybe if they use microwaves to get the coal quickly to high temperature:

from another post:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/01/040126073254.htm


I know, related to steelproduction, but makes me believe fuel cell elements could be heated quickly and efficiently likewise

The interesting part is that if world demand for oil indeed would exceed production in 2030, the market is FORCED to find other solutions. Solutions that are already available in labs, but as always you there must be some economic stimulus....

It is economically viable when the price of oil skyrockets such that the oil company can spend more to process and still make a profit. It's a business decision.

From APOLO
Just the facts mam.re: Alberta oilsands.
When the first oilsans plant started operating in 1968 (Suncore) the cost of producin a barel of oil was $19,00 a barrel. In 1975 when I was working on the constrution of the second plant (Syncrude) the cost had come down to $15.00 pr
barrel. Today with 3 plants operating, producing 1.9 milion barrels a day the cost - because of inproved tecnology- has come down to $11.00 canadian a barrel. A new plant by Shel Oil will start constrution this spring with a capacity of 500,000 barrel pr day. And there are more plants on the drawing board. notwithstanding the fact of 2 milion barrels of conventional oil production, I dont think the U.S. have to wory about oil for a long time from the Midle East. Because
the reserves in the Alberta oilsands was estimated i 1975 at
300 milion barrels at the present tecnology has now been incresed to 470 milion barrels. It is a fact that is not reported in the media, that 25% of US imported oil comes from Canada, 18% from Soudi Arabia and 10% from Venezuala. We would love to suply you with 100% then you Yankes can stop worreing about the midle east, wee'l be self sufisient in North Amwrica
APOLO

from APOLO
I am sory, A mstake in my preveous post qouted the figure
1 milion, it should be 1 bilion with a b, please make a corection in the figures I qouted.
Sory about that APOLO0

You'll want to take a look at Wentworth and Petromax. They have found a clean way to get the oil separated from the sand!

Wentworth Energy, Inc. announced that it has signed a joint venture agreement with Petromax Technologies to develop oil sands projects worldwide using the patented Petromax hydrocarbon separation technology. The joint venture, known as Wentworth Oils Sands, Inc., will have exclusive rights to the Petromax processing technology for oil sands and several other specific economic applications.

Wentworth Oils Sands Inc. will use Petromax's process to develop oil sands starting with Wentworth Energy's established leases in eastern Utah. Wentworth owns approximately 1900 acres of oil sand leases in the potentially prolific Asphalt Ridge region. Historical geologic assessment conducted by and reports authored by the United States Geologic Survey and the United States Department of Mines indicate that total recoverable oil reserves are estimated between 30,000 to 40,000 barrels per acre.

John Punzo, Chairman and CEO of Wentworth Energy, stated: "We are extremely pleased to have secured the exclusive rights to use the Petromax technology for oil sand resource extraction. Under the leadership of Barry Rosengrant Petromax has assembled one of the most experienced teams in the industry to bring this technology on stream. Our plan is to build the first production plant using the Petromax process over the next several months before making it available to other oil sands projects worldwide."

Petromax Technologies Founder Barry Rosengrant added, "Not only is the Petromax process ideally suited for oil sands resource extraction it does so in an environmentally benign manner. In Utah the state government has said it will only approve projects meeting strict environmental criteria. The patented Petromax process is a combination of water-based chemicals that change the charge of inorganic and oil-based organic surfaces from neutral or positive into strongly negative. This clears the way for the easy and clean separation of the hydrocarbons from the oil sands."

Gord McDougall, President of Wentworth Energy stated, "Petromax's process also ensures that the development cost-per-barrel will be significantly below those of other exploitation processes, while producing a high grade of oil from the oil sands environment. Traditional oil sands projects can cost billions of dollars, however, we believe that with Petromax we can build a plant that will produce oil at a fraction of the infrastructure cost for conventional oil sands development projects.

The US has lots of oil reserves too, especially in and around Kansas. Lots of oil drilling has been going on, and they usually hit oil with each drill (about 5,000 foot depth).

The reason this isn't being 'exploited' is because oil's been so much cheaper from elsewhere. The oil in Kansas is in tight-rock formations, and wells typically produce at about 3-5 barrels/day, compared to the 1000 barrels/day wells in Kuwait, etc. The total reserves under each such 3-5 barrel/day well is the same as for a 1,000 barrel/day well elsewhere, so the well would last centuries, instead of decades. The total oil reserves in the US, are quite large, just more expensive to extract due to the initial drilling costs. To get that production up requires lots of drilling, which is where the cost is, and why it's not being done while it's still relatively cheap (under $100/barrel, or under about $2/gallon).

Apparently, the long term strategy has been to use-up foreign oil (non-US oil) first, while keeping the US oil underground for future use.

You should check the posts on Bio Diesel. Good information on oil alternatives are being provided.

Actually it costs $62.00 US a barrel to convert just about anything organic into diesel, there is a commercial plant operating right now, its taking waste from a chicken processing plant (guts, feathers, feet, etc) and making diesel and heating oil.

www.changingworldtech.com

The plant is the first of its kind in operation,