After all, without a belief in God, atheists can lie and believe they are free from supernatural repercussions. But, should you trust such a person?

lol, ofcourse you can. should you trust a person who believes in things without any basis of proof?.

trust people as individuals not as a group.

peace.

Yes :confused:
What kind of question is that !? :bugeye:

Let me ask you this, do you not lie solely because of your believe in God ? If the answer is yes you are a pitiful person, if the answer is no you know the answer to your own questions.

A theist believes, however irrationally in your mind, that lying could result in going to Hell. Therefore, such a person is more likely to tell you the truth. A person who has no such belief has little reason to tell you the truth willingly. Why should I trust an atheist?

A theist believes, however irrationally in your mind, that lying could result in going to Hell. Therefore, such a person is more likely to tell you the truth. A person who has no such belief has little reason to tell you the truth willingly. Why should I trust an atheist?

See post 4 :bugeye:

Do I not lie solely because of my belief in God? What does that mean? If I believe in God, why would I be lying?

Just believeing in god shouldnt be the only reason you dont lie. Are you saying that if you knew there was no god you'd be a horrible lying bastard? I hope not

Do I not lie solely because of my belief in God? What does that mean? If I believe in God, why would I be lying?

Well, do you ? Do you only not lie because your believe in God ?

Just believeing in god shouldnt be the only reason you dont lie. Are you saying that if you knew there was no god you'd be a horrible lying bastard? I hope not

I'm afraid he is... looks like it at least.. :rolleyes:

Yes. Rationally, if I had no fear of God, I would certainly lie. Of course, there is a point of dimishing returns in lying - like the boy who cried wolf. Nevertheless, I sure would lie a lot more.

Yes. Rationally, if I had no fear of God, I would certainly lie. Of course, there is a point of dimishing returns in lying - like the boy who cried wolf. Nevertheless, I sure would lie a lot more.

Sigh.. so who is the lying bastard here ? You are, only you are afraid to do it.

After all, without a belief in God, atheists can lie and believe they are free from supernatural repercussions. But, should you trust such a person?

If there is some supernatural being how do you know if he cares if you lie or not? Do you hear voices in your head? I find it harder to trust a person who is unstable and claims to hear a god speaking in his ear.

Have you always heard voices? Voices telling you what to do?. Seek help. there are treatments that can help stop your delusional periods.

what a stupid question, I would trust an atheist before I trust a so-called-theist!!! lol, is true

Who said you need to hear voices to believe in God? Hearing voices is disturbing even to theists. Now, by hearing voices, I assume you are not referring to your own voice telling you to behave?

Jesus is the truth and the way. "Truth" is a pretty clear indication that lying is bad.

So your saying that love of your fellow man and respect for them have no bearing to you? Thats really sad that fear is the only thing that keeps you in line. I bet your a W fan too arent you?

Jesus is the truth and the way. "Truth" is a pretty clear indication that lying is bad.

Are you assuming that atheists lie more than theists ?
Do theists lie, at all ? Do they never do horrible things ?

A theist believes, however irrationally in your mind, that lying could result in going to Hell. Therefore, such a person is more likely to tell you the truth. A person who has no such belief has little reason to tell you the truth willingly. Why should I trust an atheist?

If you've never seen a theist lie, or met a theist that was untrustworthy, then you have obviously led a very sheltered life.
Catholic priests molesting altar boys comes to mind.

Why are you stereotyping all athiests as untrustworthy?
Christians, Jews, Muslims, and other theists can be just as untrustworthy. It's not the religion, it's the individual.
Two of my best friends are athiests and I trust both of them. They have never given me any reason to not.

Jesus is the truth and the way. "Truth" is a pretty clear indication that lying is bad.

Seek help. There are medications that will stop your delusions. It's not always easy, but try taking the first step.

I'm not saying theist don't lie. I'm saying that without the fear of hell fire, atheists are more likely to lie.

I try not to lie and Im an atheist, I dont give a damn about hell, I just was tought by my parents that lyings is bad, so I listened.

Yes. Rationally, if I had no fear of God, I would certainly lie. Of course, there is a point of dimishing returns in lying - like the boy who cried wolf. Nevertheless, I sure would lie a lot more.

So your question is: Because I am inherently a liar whose only constraint on my natural mendacity is my fear of divine punishment, shouldn't I assume that everyone is just like me?

The answer is, not necessarily. There are other reasons not to lie than just fear of Hell. Notably, (i) usually there is no need to, (ii) if you lie, you have to remember that lie and to whom it was said, in case it comes up again, (iii) there's always a chance you might get caught lying, and there might be very real and very temporal consequences to worry about. So lying can be costly even without the possibility of Hell.

It is rather like reasoning: "All atheists must immoral because the only reason I ever act morally is fear of punishment, not because of any innate desire to be a good human being." Not everyone is driven solely by external consequences...some philosophers have argued that only animals are driven solely by external costs and benefits.

So your question is: Because I am inherently a liar whose only constraint on my natural mendacity is my fear of divine punishment, shouldn't I assume that everyone is just like me?

The answer is, not necessarily. There are other reasons not to lie than just fear of Hell. Notably, (i) usually there is no need to, (ii) if you lie, you have to remember that lie and to whom it was said, in case it comes up again, (iii) there's always a chance you might get caught lying, and there might be very real and very temporal consequences to worry about. So lying can be costly even without the possibility of Hell.

It is rather like reasoning: "All atheists must immoral because the only reason I ever act morally is fear of punishment, not because of any innate desire to be a good human being." Not everyone is driven solely by external consequences...some philosophers have argued that only animals are driven solely by external costs and benefits.

:bravo:
Sounds about right.

After all, without a belief in God, atheists can lie and believe they are free from supernatural repercussions. But, should you trust such a person?

People who believe in god lie (and commit all kinds of other immoral acts) all the time and believe they are free from supernatural repercussions (e.g., because the confess about it later, because they are predestined to go to heaven, because they are lying to people who are nonbelievers, etc.).

I try not to lie and Im an atheist, I dont give a damn about hell, I just was tought by my parents that lyings is bad, so I listened.

How do we know you're not lying? After all, you are an atheist. I'm an atheist so don't trust me. Then again, is that like a negative times a negative equals a positive and we can only trust atheists?

But there are also great benefits to lying. Cheating people out of their money. Making people do what you want. etc.

"Everything I say is a lie....except that.....and that.....and that......."

Family guy FTW

But there are also great benefits to lying. Cheating people out of their money. Making people do what you want. etc.

Are you secretly wanting to be an atheist ?

Are you secretly wanting to be an atheist ?


Yea man ..there is no god..come on man you know you want to come over here with all us liars.....its so fun

Your parents told you not to lie. And you still are doing what your parents told you? How old are you?

I respect my parents, I know thats got to be one hell of a concept for a theist.."honor thy mother and father" Holy crap !!!!!!!!!!! you dont listen to your parents?!!?!?!?! You are going to helL

Are you parents atheists? Do you ask them why you shouldn't lie? And how old are you?

I respect my parents, I know thats got to be one hell of a concept for a theist.."honor thy mother and father" Holy crap !!!!!!!!!!! you dont listen to your parents?!!?!?!?! You are going to helL

:D 'Why' walked into that one with his chin out. He's probably on his knees asking the Jesus dude for smelling salts.

Are you parents atheists? Do you ask them why you shouldn't lie? And how old are you?




One of them is. I am 22 I dont see how that matters

"Honor thy mother and father" is not from Jesus, but Moses. As I'm not Jewish, I wouldn't be asking Moses for smelling salts.

Are you parents atheists? Do you ask them why you shouldn't lie? And how old are you?

I am 30, my mother was a Christian and is now agnostic and my father is agnostic as well. Everyone knows that it's not right to lie, people learn that at an early age, no need for faith there.. as far as I'm concerned at least.

Hmm I think both are on the verge of being atheists though, but I'm not sure.

Being 22, you are still close to being a child and haven't yet distanced yourself from your upbringing. In time, child. The non-atheist parent probably accounts for your belief that lying is bad.

Did jesus not honor the 10 commandments? did he not want us to honor our parents?

A 30 year old who had an ex-Christian mother probably gained his belief that lying is bad from his mother's past theist training.

Being 22, you are still close to being a child and haven't yet distanced yourself from your upbringing. In time, child. The non-atheist parent probably accounts for your belief that lying is bad.

You are now asserting that everyone with atheist parents thinks it's alright to lie ? ..you really lost it now man :bugeye:

Jesus said to leave your mother and father and follow him.

Theism isnt the only thing that gives us morals, you dont have to believe in god to find parts of the bible moving, or the lessons intruiging.

A 30 year old who had an ex-Christian mother probably gained his belief that lying is bad from his mother's past theist training.

I had no such training, my mother believed that I had to find my own way in this, and rightly so. I also wasn't baptized for the same reason to great dislike of my grandparents I might add.

No, a culture can tell you it's bad to lie without a belief in God. Nevertheless, there doesn't seem to be a good rational reason for not lying when you can gain so much from it. Hence, the lack of a belief in God should lead to more liars.

No, a culture can tell you it's bad to lie without a belief in God. Nevertheless, there doesn't seem to be a good rational reason for not lying when you can gain so much from it. Hence, the lack of a belief in God should lead to more liars.

No, lying is disadvantaging in the long run. It's wise not to lie.

But, your mother didn't let you find your own way. She trained you that lying was bad. Where did she get that from?

'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be prolonged and that it may go well with you on the land which the LORD your God gives you.

dueteronomy 5:16

Why?:

Do you believe because you are afraid of yourself ? Honest answer please.

are you even a real christian?

But, your mother didn't let you find your own way. She trained you that lying was bad. Where did she get that from?

From common sense, do you have any ?

My father also trained me to be honest.. btw

Everyone knows atheists believe in relative morality.

Everyone knows atheists believe in relative morality.

Care to explain this "relative morality" ?

yes please do

After all, without a belief in God, atheists can lie and believe they are free from supernatural repercussions. But, should you trust such a person?

Why,

This is an excellent question and as you can see you've got the atheists jumping through hoops trying to extricate themselves by pointing the finger at you.

I do not think you should trust atheists because at the end of the day they are answerable only to themselves and as any politician can tell you its always possible to think and talk your way out of any disagreeable action on your part.

People who believe in something greater than themselves will know that they are not the final judge in any situation and as a result they will always err on the side of caution when it comes to transgressing boundaries.

Yes better to be answerable to an all seeing all knowing but suprisingly absent god

Why,

This is an excellent question and as you can see you've got the atheists jumping through hoops trying to extricate themselves by pointing the finger at you.

I do not think you should trust atheists because at the end of the day they are answerable only to themselves and as any politician can tell you its always possible to think and talk your way out of any disagreeable action on your part.

People who believe in something greater than themselves will know that they are not the final judge in any situation and as a result they will always err on the side of caution when it comes to transgressing boundaries.

The narrow mindedness is astounding. I do "believe" in something greater than myself, nature. I do not believe I will be judged in any afterlife, but I believe in being a good person.

"If you're doing business with a religious son of a bitch, get it in writing. His word ain't worth shit, not with God telling him how to screw you on the deal."

William S. Burroughs

Forgive me but it all sounds to me like theists are these horrible persons inside, their unimaginable actions only constrained by their believe in God.

Tell me, what happens when science proves that there isn't any God ? Will you be the horrible person you think you will become ? Or will you still have your morals ?

Did jesus not honor the 10 commandments? did he not want us to honor our parents?

Depends. After all he was the child product of God raping the Virgin Mary. The God dude planted his seed without her consent. Rape. Maybe that's why Jesus was so uptight about everything.

Im not touching that with a 10 foot pole

How is this at all on topic? Just insulting Jesus makes very little use of your brain.

How is this at all on topic? Just insulting Jesus makes very little use of your brain.

Can you please answer my questions from post 60 ?

Care to explain this "relative morality" ?

It has no ontological foundation

It has no ontological foundation

:confused:
Morality has no ontological foundation ? You have got to be kidding me :rolleyes:
Still, you have defined "relative morality" yet..

:confused:
Morality has no ontological foundation ? You have got to be kidding me :rolleyes:
Still, you have defined "relative morality" yet..

Atheist morality has no ontological foundation: without moral values, moral duties and accountability, there is no morality. Don't confuse knowing with being.

Atheist morality has no ontological foundation: without moral values, moral duties and accountability, there is no morality. Don't confuse knowing with being.

Morality has an evolutionary basis S.A.M.
There is accountability, to authority and society.

word

Besides all the explanations here on why your question is stupid I'd like to know

how do you know a person is religious or an atheist? Do you actually ask your everyone if he or she believes in some god? :confused:

I have Godar.

Answer to Post #60. I will be dead before that impossibility occurs.

Answer to Post #60. I will be dead before that impossibility occurs.

Nicely avoided. Bravo! :bugeye:
Treat it as an hypothetical question then, which it, of course, is.

Hypothetically, if there is no God, I would still have my theist training which will constrain my otherwise lying cheat'in ways. But if I were a born again atheist, yes, I would be scum - no doubt.

Hypothetically, if there is no God, I would still have my theist training which will constrain my otherwise lying cheat'in ways. But if I were a born again atheist, yes, I would be scum - no doubt.

Even if you were taught the exact same morals ?

Wait so your saying that your moral beliefs transend your belief in god!!!! OMFG WHAT A CONCEPT!!!

Morality has an evolutionary basis S.A.M.
There is accountability, to authority and society.

Don't confuse knowing with being. An "awareness" of "knowing" something is "wrong" does not translate to its being wrong. e.g what is your view on abortion? At what point is it "wrong", if at all?

If I was taught the exact same morals by my parents, then I would have to deal with the after effects of my upbringing which are difficult if not impossible to completely free yourself from. Accordingly, I would probably lie less.

Don't confuse knowing with being. An "awareness" of "knowing" something is "wrong" does not translate to its being wrong.

Theists also only have an awareness of knowing something is wrong. There have no way of knowing if it really is wrong because the are told.

see edit

Lets all just be obscure!

If I was taught the exact same morals by my parents, then I would have to deal with the after effects of my upbringing which are difficult if not impossible to completely free yourself from. Accordingly, I would probably lie less.

Less than who/what ?

Lets all just be obscure!

Or at least familiarise ourselves with the basics of philosophy before posting in the subforum.

see edit

I edited too :p

Theists also only have an awareness of knowing something is wrong. There have no way of knowing if it really is wrong because the are told.

Exactly, so the whole evolutionary basis of an awareness of morality is pure BS.

would you care to answer this:
what is your view on abortion? At what point is it "wrong", if at all?

I would lie less than my hypothetical self who was not taught about God or about not lying by my parents.

S.A.M. You are an atheist non-humanist?

Exactly, so the whole evolutionary basis of an awareness of morality is pure BS.

would you care to answer this:
what is your view on abortion? At what point is it "wrong", if at all?

:confused: Where did you get that ? Did it ever occur to you that HUMANS wrote the bible, humans with MORALS ?

Abortion is a difficult topic. I think it's wrong to abort just because you don't like the idea of having a baby. You should have thought about that before. But when a girl is raped I think is not wrong to want the fetus aborted.

I would lie less than my hypothetical self who was not taught about God or about not lying by my parents.

So you would lie more then than you are now ? How do you know ? The morals are the same and you admitted that if God was disproven you would still hang on to your morals even if there was no hell to fear anymore. Its the exact same thing.

:confused: Where did you get that ? Did it ever occur to you that HUMANS wrote the bible, humans with MORALS ?

Abortion is a difficult topic. I think it's wrong to abort just because you don't like the idea of having a baby. You should have thought about that before. But when a girl is raped I think is not wrong to want the fetus aborted.

^^^excellent example of relative morality :)

S.A.M. You are an atheist non-humanist?

A muslim, actually

^^^excellent example of relative morality :)

Yeah well, what do you think about abortion then ?

I would have a difficult time eliminating all of my parent's teachings, so I would lie less than if I never had parents who taught this. But, in such a state, I would still lie more than if I feared God.

Thats you, I'm sure some people would, but most people will do the right thing if given the chance

Ah, I see. A Muslim is a theist - and of course, theists lose a great justification for moral behavior, i.e. God told us, if theists admit that morals are inborn like humanists. Gotcha.

Most people won't do the right thing if given the chance. Without God, we are but dogs. Some dogs are taught to behave - some aren't.

I would have a difficult time eliminating all of my parent's teachings, so I would lie less than if I never had parents who taught this. But, in such a state, I would still lie more than if I feared God.

That makes you a hypocrite, I'm sorry to say..

Morals are a standard of the society we live in. If society says killing is wrong, then you will most likely grow up with the belief that killing is wrong

Ah, I see. A Muslim is a theist - and of course, theists lose a great justification for moral behavior, i.e. God told us, if theists admit that morals are inborn like humanists. Gotcha.

Now that sounds more realistic, theists lose a great justification for moral behavior if they admit that morals are inborn like humanists.

So why don't you admit it ? Are you afraid to lose your morals ?

If you think God is on your side, there is no limit to what you may percieve as permissible.

If you think God is on your side, there is no limit to what you may percieve as permissible.

Apparently theists are immoral beasts with their believe :shrug:

Some morals are inborn, e.g. don't have sex with someone of the same sex. Some morals are learned, e.g. don't lie.

Some morals are inborn, e.g. don't have sex with someone of the same sex. Some morals are learned, e.g. don't lie.

So.. what are you trying to say ?

Well i bet gay people would have a different opinion of that

Gays are apparently defective. They didn't receive a proper dosage of some hormone at birth which resulted in their brains not developing in turn with their sex. I'm not talking about the inborn morals of a defective person. Such a person was born with a different way of thinking, i.e. that is o.k. to have sex with a member of the same sex. For them, their inborn morality permits gay sex.

Some morals are inborn. Some morals are learned.

So.. ? That's exactly my point. :shrug:
You claim you only have imposed morals.

No, I claim that lying is not an inborn moral.

No, I claim that lying is not an inborn moral.

So it is learned.. what point are you trying to make with that ?

If you don't have religion teaching your parents to teach you not to lie, you will end up lying more and aren't as trustworthy.

If you don't have religion teaching your parents to teach you not to lie, you will end up lying more and aren't as trustworthy.

I have the morals, don't I ? I can teach them to my kids, can't I ? Where do I need religion for that ?

Do you lie? have you ever lied?

Of course, I've lied. My point is about how much lying do you do. Your leftover theist remanent against lying will be diluted to your children, and what little is left over for the next generation will die a quick death.

Of course, I've lied. My point is about how much lying do you do. Your leftover theist remanent against lying will be diluted to your children, and what little is left over for the next generation will die a quick death.

You are deluding yourself, wake up man.

I hated church and I hated anything to do with it for a long time, but I did not just start lying my ass off, I know that lying has consquences that are usually negative, so Idont lie. Lying=bad

No, that is your justification for avoiding that bad feeling you get from lying, which is a result of your theist upbringing. Shake off the guilt and lie it up sister!

No, that is your justification for avoiding that bad feeling you get from lying, which is a result of your theist upbringing. Shake off the guilt and lie it up sister!

Thats exactly what you are doing, trying to avoid the bad feeling of burning in hell.

I dont believe you should presume to tell people what they feel. I know that I dont lie because I was taught (by my parents, mostly mom..who is an Atheist) not to lie therfore I dont lie, it has nothing to do with god

But was your Mom's mom an atheist?

Read my post yes she is and was

So your maternal grandmom was an atheist? What about maternal granddad? Him too?

yes religion helped shape the morals of society, without it doesnt mean that the morals it helped create will become meaningless


Just because the wright brothers are dead doesnt mean that planes cease to fly

Many religious morals are irrational -and therefore, atheists ought to oppose them. For example, do unto others. Now, why should I rationally follow such a rule? It makes more sense to use your leverage over others to get what you want, and forget about their problems because they aren't your problems.

Explain how that is irrational, its only irrational if you dont care about the people around you, even without religion you can still respect others..duh

Actually, we humans generally don't care about the people around us. I thought that was common knowledge. Of course, you do care about certain love ones, but the vast vast majority of people you could give a gnat's ass for.

Generalizations are silly

Do you care about the homeless in your town? When was the last time you feed them? Gave them the shirt off your back? If you saw Mom homeless, would you hesitate to even act?

I should ask you the same question, judging by your other post you dont care if a few hundered thousand iraqi "eggs" get broken to make a democracy, even though you religion frowns upon killing, HYPOCRITE!


do unto others huh..RIGHT

It is not hypocritical to fail to live up to the tenants of your faith. This is called sin. Being a hypocrite means telling others what to do and then not doing them yourself. I am not claiming to tell you not to lie. I am not claiming to tell the U.S. government to get out of Iraq. Don't confuse my behavior with that of a religion.

I trusted an atheist once and he broke my favorite toy! :bawl:

How can you knowingly degrade other human beings to "eggs" and calim a your a christian? Sinning and doing it jsut because you know you can get forgiven in the end wont get you into heaven my friend, if god existed he would see right through that

Why?: You are most definately a hypocrite.
Tell me, do you care about other people ?

After all, without a belief in God, atheists can lie and believe they are free from supernatural repercussions. But, should you trust such a person?

That is a good point you raise. I think the concept of belief\religion is a sound one. I watched a show about Jeffrey Dahmer and the fact that he gave in to his 'demons' was due to his becoming an Atheist- this was his and his fathers views. He believed he could do whatever he wanted and there was no accountability, of course in prison he found religion.

I see nothing wrong with having hope and belief, whatever it may be, and never saw any problems with faith, only people. I have said on many ocassions that to remain Atheist (no belief) throughout life is just not possible. When you factor in intelligence and emotion then i believe humans lack the ability to not believe or at the very least imagine that there is something more. I do believe that there can be a time in ones life where they truely believe that they are Atheist but there is just no way that this feeling can remain throughout life. I refer to death bed analysis for making this observation, and the fact that we are natural explorers and the notion that we are alone is not possible which is really all faith is. So weather it was primitive man looking across an ocean and thinking there has to be something\someone else out there or looking up and wondering the same thing, what is the differance? To me it is just not natural to think there is nothing out there but more blue water.:o

This is a touchy subject and is only an observation.

That is a good point you raise. I think the concept of belief\religion is a sound one. I watched a show about Jeffrey Dahmer and the fact that he gave in to his 'demons' was due to his becoming an Atheist- this was his and his fathers views. He believed he could do whatever he wanted and there was no accountability, of course in prison he found religion.

I see nothing wrong with having hope and belief, whatever it may be, and never saw any problems with faith, only people. I have said on many ocassions that to remain Atheist (no belief) throughout life is just not possible. When you factor in intelligence and emotion then i believe humans lack the ability to not believe or at the very least imagine that there is something more. I do believe that there can be a time in ones life where they truely believe that they are Atheist but there is just no way that this feeling can remain throughout life. I refer to death bed analysis for making this observation, and the fact that we are natural explorers and the notion that we are alone is not possible which is really all faith is. So weather it was primitive man looking across an ocean and thinking there has to be something\someone else out there or looking up and wondering the same thing, what is the differance? To me it is just not natural to think there is nothing out there but more blue water.:o

This is a touchy subject and is only an observation.

What if it's just wrong,would that be a problem ?

No, I only care about myself and people I like. And I am not telling you to do otherwise. Yes, I am a Christian, but I am afraid not a very good one.

Then your point about religion helping to establish morals better than non religion is moot

What if it's just wrong,would that be a problem ?

If what is wrong?

If what is wrong?

Religion

It's not moot. The point is that atheists on the whole will lie more than religious. It's not that the religious don't lie.

Then your point about religion helping to establish morals better than non religion is mute

Yep.. sad.

Where is your proof>?

It's not moot. The point is that atheists on the whole will lie more than religious. It's not that the religious don't lie.

Does it matter if it were true ? You are honest for all the wrong reasons, at least we are not hypocrites.

Sure it would matter. With a religious person, I know I have a better chance of them telling me the truth. It makes religion look better than atheism - at least in this one particular way.

I don't know what religion or lack thereof has to do with it. People are people and you're either honest or you're not.

I know a jury would find me to be a liar from the get-go because I wouldn't 'swear to tell the truth, the whole truth SO HELP YOU GOD'. To do so would be lying.

No your not either honest or your not. That presumes you're either born honest or your not. There is no honesty gene.

Then how do you explain all the those lying who are religious, you have no proof, this is just opinion

No your not either honest or your not. That presumes you're either born honest or your not. There is no honesty gene.

I think every child is born honest. They learn to lie so they either don't hurt people's feelings (why are you so fat?) or to avoid punishment (no, I didn't break the vase). They learn to read adults expressions and say something to avoid punishment.

My proof is rational argument. There are definite advantages to lying. If there is no God, then why not lie to enrich yourself?

Children also lie to get what they want.

Well if your religion tells you that you can go to heaven if you ask for forgivness then why cant you lie? there is no rational for this at all. You can lie your ass off just like anybody else but you can say a little prayer and feel better about yourself afterward.

I cannot believe in 8 pages this question has not been answered already????

Wtf?
Can you trust an atheist. That seems a rather blunt question. Sure, trust an atheist. Sure, trust a f'in theist. Trust whoever you want for all I care!!!

But yeah, seriously. Might depend on the person. It really is hard to trust anybody. But then the issue of trust comes up...?
Trust.
Can you trust me.
Can you trust him.
Who can you trust.
Can you trust anyone?
Sure, people are for the most part trust worthy. I am not as trust worthy at times- but trust in myself and to make myself trust worthy. I would say that people are able to be trusted. Can you trust an atheist... It certainly depends on how you take it. If you are conversating, you and the atheist, I wouldn't depend upon him. Depend on what you want. If you can trust an atheist then you can trust your beliefs.

No, you have to sincerely desire forgiveness. You can't simply lie knowing you will be forgiven. With that atitude, you won't be forgiven.

Children also lie to get what they want.

yes, because they have already been told no, they LEARN to lie to get what they want.
we are born honest

No, you have to sincerely desire forgiveness. You can't simply lie knowing you will be forgiven. With that atitude, you won't be forgiven.


well then knowing that your a sinner do you better yourself? honestly now do you take all the things that god views as sin and try to improve on them ? dont lie now

I think after reading 8 pages you have entered a state of mindless exasperation - and don't understand what this thread is asking.

Welcome to the sciforums ride of information and discussion, please keep your arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times, and please remember never to feed the trolls, thankyou.

Huh???

:D


Uh, yeah... Sureeeeee.... Isn't the thread about trusting an atheist? If not care to elaborate for us fellow members. We would all appericate a little bit of clarity I am certain myself included.

Mindless exasperation from wondering about trusting an atheist... :/

Sometimes I do. So, children are suppose to be given whatever they want, because at least their honest about their desires?

Fine. Ignore the 'troll" . who is not trolling... who is asking, wtf. Trust an atheist. What a stupid thread..

Sometimes I do. So, children are suppose to be given whatever they want, because at least their honest about their desires?

no.

It's not moot. The point is that atheists on the whole will lie more than religious. It's not that the religious don't lie.

Utter bullshit.

Not utter bullshit. It isn't moot. But it needs to be closed or answered- as I have said.
Simple:
He's right because atheists are more difficult to trust... do you disbelieve that? Walk up on an atheist if you are not atheist... Do you trust him? No, you do not trust him. I certainly would withold trust.
And he is right with his final point, too: it's not that the religious don't lie. He is therefore asking, okay, the religious don't lie, the atheists are hard to trust, do we trust an atheist. Do you trust an atheist? I don't know if you do or not!!

Would you withold trust because of your beliefs or because you dont know him? Either or shouldnt the real question be Do you trust people who are different?

Not utter bullshit.
And what proof is there of this claim??
It isn't moot. But it needs to be closed or answered- as I have said.
Simple:
He's right because atheists are more difficult to trust... do you disbelieve that? Walk up on an atheist if you are not atheist... Do you trust him? No, you do not trust him. I certainly would withold trust.
Then you are by definition a bigot. Should I trust a bigot?

And he is right with his final point, too: it's not that the religious don't lie. He is therefore asking, okay, the religious don't lie, the atheists are hard to trust, do we trust an atheist. Do you trust an atheist? I don't know if you do or not!!

Argument from ignorance.

Come on! I have clarified this thread, entirely if not completely.

Everyone should withold trust from just about everyone. In accepting a discussion from an atheist, it is of course natural to withold trust..

"Do I trust people who are different"

Do I? Sure, but I don't want to be as crazy- if they are crazy- as they are..?

This isn't biggotry. I'm not saying I don't like atheists. I'm saying that logically it makes sense to lie because it's advantageous. Therefore, unless you have religion telling you not to lie, the atheist will logically tend to lie more often than the religious.

And what proof is there of this claim??

Then you are by definition a bigot. Should I trust a bigot?



Argument from ignorance.

The proof my sock puppet friend, lies in the fact that his statement does not withold proof. You have not accepted his arguements on the waywards. And besides this, what proof of it is there? The proof lies in the statement- sock puppet monster!

I am by defination a bigot. Sure, if you consider definition soooo strict, puppet! :p

Arguement from ignorance? Who are you to call ignorance......?

Why don't YOU bother to elaborate on the point instead of call it uttere bollocks. THe point was as simple and sane as any of those I have heard. If this thread is going to be clarified it apparently is not I who is going to do it. It is you. So. Take it away bigot.

This isn't biggotry. I'm not saying I don't like atheists. I'm saying that logically it makes sense to lie because it's advantageous. Therefore, unless you have religion telling you not to lie, the atheist will logically tend to lie more often than the religious.


:D

Read my first post bigots

:D

My proof is rational argument. There are definite advantages to lying. If there is no God, then why not lie to enrich yourself?

Because you were wacked across the hand with a ruler every time you lied as a child? Actually, from a psychological perspective that it a far more effective way of stopping behavior than a distant and uncertain threat such as "hell."

But why would an atheist wack his kids hand with a ruler for lying, if the parent felt there was nothing wrong with lying?

Come on! I have clarified this thread, entirely if not completely.

Everyone should withold trust from just about everyone. In accepting a discussion from an atheist, it is of course natural to withold trust..

"Do I trust people who are different"

Do I? Sure, but I don't want to be as crazy- if they are crazy- as they are..?

I understand withholding trust on the basis of not knowing someone(lack of intimacy) but not on the basis of ones personal belief.

Who said that an atheist sees no problem with lying? You are not an athiest so how can you know what an athiest would or wouldnt have a problem with, your arguments are weak just like this incredibly vague question that is obviously just meant to get a rise out of athiests. I could pose a similar question and say "can you trust a Christian" with the basis that some christians lie or use religion to their advantage. its completely retarded

I understand withholding trust on the basis of not knowing someone(lack of intimacy) but not on the basis of ones personal belief.

Sock:

It is hard to hold back your trust with an atheist who talks about things you don't understand.

Moreover, it is hard to believe them, or, even to trust them.

Arguement from ignorance? Who are you to call ignorance......?

I am someone who had 12 years of christian schooling (even won the best in theology award when I graduated grammar school). I have had and still have many christian friends (better christians than you). I now do not believe and happen to have many friends who don't believe so I have some actual perspective

Why don't YOU bother to elaborate on the point instead of call it uttere bollocks.
You made a statement with NO suporting evidence other than assumption nothing for me to bother refuting.

Take it away bigot.

I am not the one judging someone by thier personal beliefs that would be you.

Yes. Rationally, if I had no fear of God, I would certainly lie. Of course, there is a point of dimishing returns in lying - like the boy who cried wolf. Nevertheless, I sure would lie a lot more.

Very very sad.
Pathetic, in fact.

I, personally, would rather deal with someone who does not lie because they think lying is wrong, rather than someone who does not lie out of fear.

By the way...

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. - Romans 3:19

Read Matthew 5 if you think Jesus disagrees.

Looks like you are just as guilty as those who DO lie, according to the bible.

A theist believes, however irrationally in your mind, that lying could result in going to Hell. Therefore, such a person is more likely to tell you the truth. A person who has no such belief has little reason to tell you the truth willingly. Why should I trust an atheist?
First of all, not all theists believe in Hell, don't you really men Christian?
Why not be honest?

Secondly, the bible does not support your assertion that lying to others will land you in Hell.
In fact, it says quite the contrary:

NIV Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. "

Lie to people all you want and it will be forgiven.
The only way to land in Hell is to blaspheme the holy spirit.

Seems to me that one shold not trust Christians.

Sock:

It is hard to hold back your trust with an atheist who talks about things you don't understand.

Moreover, it is hard to believe them, or, even to trust them.

Based on? Is this so hard really?

"Why?" joined a few months after IAC left.
I think they are strikingly similar.

I am someone who had 12 years of christian schooling. I have had and still have many christian friends (better christians than you). I now do not believe and happen to have many friends who don't believe so I have some actual perspective


You made a statement with NO suporting evidence other than assumption nothing for me to bother refuting.



I am not the one judging someone by thier personal beliefs that would be you.


Nice to finally meet your happy face :eek:


1. I am not a christian. I consider myself christian-like, however... at least somewhat :rolleyes:

2. And I do not have some actual perspective? The point is clarifying the issue, nothing more. You are taking this too far. My point is simple and unabated.

3. You do not or are not forced to refute. - The fact that atheists are difficult to trust, as this was the threads purpose?

4. I am not judging your personal beliefs!

1. I am not a christian. I consider myself christian-like, however... at least somewhat

And you could say that I try and follow the golden rule because it seems right not because I fear hell or long for heaven.


3. You do not or are not forced to refute. - The fact that atheists are difficult to trust, as this was the threads purpose?




So far I have seen nothing but personal assumptions.:shrug:

Based on? Is this so hard really?

Seriously. Why isn't the thread closed.. I guess we still have one ravens testominies to the fact that theists, also, are difficult to trust...

But I suppose we should go on finding out what we are talking first- which will not happen, of course.!

:bawl:

A theist believes, however irrationally in your mind, that lying could result in going to Hell. Therefore, such a person is more likely to tell you the truth. A person who has no such belief has little reason to tell you the truth willingly. Why should I trust an atheist?

Only certain types of theists.

For instance, as a non-Muslim, do you trust Muslims?
What about radical ones? Terrorist Muslims?


You theists are so simple.

Seriously. Why isn't the thread closed.. I guess we still have one ravens testominies to the fact that theists, also, are difficult to trust...

But I suppose we should go on finding out what we are talking first- which will not happen, of course.!

:bawl:

It's about the bigotry of people in relation to those that feel or believe differently than they do and sadly it is very relevant.

And you could say that I try and follow the golden rule because it seems right not because I fear hell or long for heaven.




So far I have seen nothing but personal assumptions.:shrug:

Is it a personal assumption- that atheists are difficult to trust.

Is it a personal assumption- that atheists are difficult to trust.

Unless you base it upon evidence, yes it is. As I said most of my best friends now are atheists and I feel I could trust them with anything

It's about the bigotry of people in relation to those that feel or believe differently than they do and sadly it is very relevant.

As I have stated 10 thousand times as you refute it as a personal assumption every time? :confused:

Your bible quotes are perplexing. What is it that you are trying to show? Are you seriously suggesting Jesus would forgive all sins of those who didn't seek forgiveness?

Unless you base it upon evidence yes it is.

Then your remarks are also personal assumptions!

Evidence:

I am talking to an atheist at the lunch table okay?
Atheist starts talking to me about god. I shake my head saying I believe in god. Atheist tells me I am full of shit. Should I trust him? No. Evidence? I should not trust something that is not trustable to me. This is enough evidence for you.

I like how you can completely dismiss the quote as untrue when it is a quote from your own doctrine...weird...troll

But why would an atheist wack his kids hand with a ruler for lying, if the parent felt there was nothing wrong with lying?

Perhaps the parents aren't atheists but that doesn't mean the child isn't. Or maybe they believe in the importance of truth as a categorical imperative. Do you really believe that it's impossible for someone who doesn't believe in god to also believe in value of truth?

Then your remarks are also personal assumptions!

Evidence:

I am talking to an atheist at the lunch table okay?
Atheist starts talking to me about god. I shake my head saying I believe in god. Atheist tells me I am full of shit. Should I trust him? No. Evidence? I should not trust something that is not trustable to me. This is enough evidence for you.

No in that setting you should not trust them but this is an example of someone pushing their personal belief on you. That I feel is wrong, it's one thing if you ask me what I believe or start telling me what you believe but it's another thing if someone (theist or atheist) just starts telling you what you should or shouldn't believe.

I like how you can completely dismiss the quote as untrue when it is a quote from your own doctrine...weird...troll

Man are you weird.. And entirely wrong

The simple fact is I quoted his post saying that "unless I have some evidence" and then said that I had evidence.

Morons galore on this forum. Sorry no offense intended.

I am not dismissing the quotes as untrue. I am questioning what One Raven's use of those quotes is, because I don't understand the point he is making in reference to those quotes.

Who said I was talking about you? how presumtuous of you sir.
Seriously there are some morons here...no offense intended

No in that setting you should not trust them but this is an example of someone pushing their personal belief on you. That I feel is wrong, it's one thing if you ask me what I believe or start telling me what you believe but it's another thing if someone (theist or atheist) just starts telling you what you should or shouldn't believe.

As I stated in my post number one.

People should notice things. They do not.
Either way...
And you are of course exactly right. What more does this thread need. An elaboration of the further points? Hah. And I was a troll trying to close the thread?

:o

Sure, an atheist can believe in the value of truth. However, I am talking about the value of telling the truth - not the value of truth itself.

Who said I was talking about you? how presumtuous of you sir.
Seriously there are some morons here...no offense intended

Lol Thanks man. Made me happy.
Thought you were an utter moron like satyr or ...
Never mind.

Is it moronic to be picky?

lol nope it is not

Sure, an atheist can believe in the value of truth. However, I am talking about the value of telling the truth - not the value of truth itself.

1:

Elaborate.

:itold:

There is great practical value in knowing the truth. Hence, we like people to tell the truth. But, there is also great practical value in withholding the truth. Hence, people lie.

Sure, an atheist can believe in the value of truth. However, I am talking about the value of telling the truth - not the value of truth itself.

If the truth has no value then telling the truth has no value.

:spank: I dont think this thread is going anywhere

It is not going where you want it to go. That does not mean it isn't going where I want it to go. By the way, stopping referring to me as a troll just because you disagree with me. That is rather childish. Bye.

I Dont percieve it going in either direction man, most certainly not your way.

Your bible quotes are perplexing. What is it that you are trying to show? Are you seriously suggesting Jesus would forgive all sins of those who didn't seek forgiveness?

I spelled it out as plainly as I could.

Apparently not:

March 24, 2006

Survey: U.S. trust lowest for atheists
By Jeannine Aquino

1theists are America's least trusted group, according to a national survey conducted by University sociology researchers.

Based on a telephone survey of more than 2,000 households and in-depth interviews with more than 140 people, researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, homosexuals and other groups as "sharing their vision of American society." Americans are also least willing to let their children marry atheists.


http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/03/24/67686

Apparently not:


http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/03/24/67686

And where is the US now SAM my dear? :bawl:

It goes whereever we want it to go.

Now. Please state your origonal statement/question/hypothesisis or whatever the heck it is, in clear language, so that we can all understand it! It is dumbfolding me to see a thread 11 pages long with out a very clear meaning. Or has it been presented? Am I simply missing it.

People who believe in something greater than themselves will know that they are not the final judge in any situation and as a result they will always err on the side of caution when it comes to transgressing boundaries.


This I agree with. Did you ever notice how religious people never lie or sin, only the atheists? [/sarcasm]

Come on, Deep Thought, think a little deeper. At most the threat of divine retribution is just another cost thrown into the cost-benefit analysis when the question of whether to lie comes up. Since the religious people in question lie anyway, as everyone does sometimes, the cost must not be all that high. I would thik the cost would be especially low in certain religions where (let's say) the deity yuou worship died specifically to forgive you all your sins. Then, the extra-temporal cost of any sin, lying included, is zero.

Atheist morality has no ontological foundation: without moral values, moral duties and accountability, there is no morality. Don't confuse knowing with being.


Under that theory, there is no law either, unless the law is derived from on high, the same goes for most language. Since I know there is law and language (and I don't believe they came from some divine sourse...and if they did where did He/She/it get them), you must be wrong.

Morality is just like law, except that it is developed by common practice (rather than by some legislator) and enforced horizontally through social acclaim and opprobrium rather than vertically by governmental authorities.

If morality were absolute, then it would not, imo, vary so widely from culture to culture. If morality was invented by God, he sure did keep it secret for a long time.

To approach the question in another way, can you trust the person who is religous to tell the truth since they may well be lying and only say they fear divine retribution?

Jesus is the truth and the way. "Truth" is a pretty clear indication that lying is bad.
Then why do theists like yourself lie about the certainty of your god(s)? It is a lie after all. You have a book and some cultural bias. That's it. Everything else about your religion (no matter which) is a guess, a stab in the dark. Claiming absolute certainty under such circumstances is lying.

sam:
Atheist morality has no ontological foundation: without moral values, moral duties and accountability, there is no morality. Don't confuse knowing with being.
Thank god!

How many times do I have to tell you, morality is an evolved trait, like opposable thumbs and brains and the propensity to be dense.

A 30 year old who had an ex-Christian mother probably gained his belief that lying is bad from his mother's past theist training.

:roflmao:


theist 'training'. where you learn to do things in fear of punishment alone. not for the fact that it has bad effects on other people, which is not nice to do.

i think that god himself (itself?) would rather people be good and honest out of compassion towards others, good deeds should come from a desire to be nice and kind, not out of terror of being sent into eternal hell-fire.

personaly i think god would smile upon agnostic and atheists more than theists, if this is the general mentality. the honesty and decent human compassion are not real if it is installed as a reaction to fear alone.


it is a false kindness if you wouldent do it without a god to punish and reward, because lets not forget that theists also do good deeds to get into heaven. which is also selfish and not true compassion towards others, it is personal gain.

peace.

After all, without a belief in God, atheists can lie and believe they are free from supernatural repercussions. But, should you trust such a person?
have you ever seen anyone punished by GOD if they lie or cheat?
I bet any money you didnt

and why should a theist be honest when,
even if they commit a sin or a bad crime all you have to do is repent and accept Jebus and
all is cool...

can you trust a theist,
a muslim for example who believes its ok,its even commanded by his religion to kill anyone who aint muslim!
its also ok for them to lie and cheat nonmuslims,scary,huh

I base my trust on my gut feeling,my instinct tells me who to trust or not.
atheist knows we have to answer to the society right now right here,
and we are treated same way we treat others,so it DOES make sense to be HONEST dont you think?

Why? has been banned as a sock-puppet of John J. Bannan.

Under that theory, there is no law either, unless the law is derived from on high, the same goes for most language. Since I know there is law and language (and I don't believe they came from some divine sourse...and if they did where did He/She/it get them), you must be wrong.

Morality is just like law, except that it is developed by common practice (rather than by some legislator) and enforced horizontally through social acclaim and opprobrium rather than vertically by governmental authorities.

If morality were absolute, then it would not, imo, vary so widely from culture to culture. If morality was invented by God, he sure did keep it secret for a long time.

What is law?

Thank god!

How many times do I have to tell you, morality is an evolved trait, like opposable thumbs and brains and the propensity to be dense.

Based on assumptions and other mumbo jumbo, I presume.

So, is abortion morally wrong?

Why? has been banned as a sock-puppet of John J. Bannan.
Slightly dishonest, then.

Can someone lock this now?

Actually, I may have acted hastily. I've asked James to check it out, and reverse the banning if required.

Based on assumptions and other mumbo jumbo, I presume.

Based on experience, observation, consequence etc. What allows a societal group to function what causes it not to function.

My proof is rational argument. There are definite advantages to lying. If there is no God, then why not lie to enrich yourself?

You can lie to enrich yourself but that is wrong. Lying to keep from hurting someone, whether you should do it or not, is out of kindness.

Sure it would matter. With a religious person, I know I have a better chance of them telling me the truth. It makes religion look better than atheism - at least in this one particular way.

What when such a religious person falls from his/her faith ? According to you you can almost blindly trust any religious person, but how do you know when they have fallen from faith.. Theists are at best as trustworthy as atheists.
It does not make religion look better, it makes it look worse ! You are pretty much admitting that you are a horrible person that would lie, steal and kill if it wasn't for your faith. No offense, but apparently I am a much better person than you.

My proof is rational argument. There are definite advantages to lying. If there is no God, then why not lie to enrich yourself?

It not even close to being a rational argument, you are blind to the world.

Children also lie to get what they want.

So ? :shrug:
Parents have the duty to teach them right from wrong.

Based on experience, observation, consequence etc. What allows a societal group to function what causes it not to function.

An awareness or knowing is not the same as being.;)

Sometimes I do. So, children are suppose to be given whatever they want, because at least their honest about their desires?

If that is an honest question you are seriously messed up :bugeye:

Fine. Ignore the 'troll" . who is not trolling... who is asking, wtf. Trust an atheist. What a stupid thread..

Thank you Existabrent.

Not utter bullshit. It isn't moot. But it needs to be closed or answered- as I have said.
Simple:
He's right because atheists are more difficult to trust... do you disbelieve that? Walk up on an atheist if you are not atheist... Do you trust him? No, you do not trust him. I certainly would withold trust.
And he is right with his final point, too: it's not that the religious don't lie. He is therefore asking, okay, the religious don't lie, the atheists are hard to trust, do we trust an atheist. Do you trust an atheist? I don't know if you do or not!!

:confused:
Maybe it's hard to trust an atheist for a theist.. :shrug:
That's their problem really.

This isn't biggotry. I'm not saying I don't like atheists. I'm saying that logically it makes sense to lie because it's advantageous. Therefore, unless you have religion telling you not to lie, the atheist will logically tend to lie more often than the religious.

No, it makes sense to you because you are actually a lier if it wasn't for your faith. Not everyone is the same Why?.

But why would an atheist wack his kids hand with a ruler for lying, if the parent felt there was nothing wrong with lying?

Most people, if not all, know that lying is wrong. Also, most people want the best for their kids. Therefore most people teach their kids right from wrong.
Whacking hands is not necessary in teaching kids right from wrong, what kind of upbringing did you get anyway ? :bugeye:

Most people don't think lying is wrong, they actually think it is practical and expedient. Like camouflage.

Sure, an atheist can believe in the value of truth. However, I am talking about the value of telling the truth - not the value of truth itself.

Why don't you go ahead and say what you actually want to say ? :bugeye:
I think you believe that atheists in general are lairs and cannot be trusted.

Most people don't think lying is wrong, they actually think it is practical and expedient. Like camouflage.
And that's because it usually is. Often, it's also desirable and to be applauded.

:roflmao:


theist 'training'. where you learn to do things in fear of punishment alone. not for the fact that it has bad effects on other people, which is not nice to do.

i think that god himself (itself?) would rather people be good and honest out of compassion towards others, good deeds should come from a desire to be nice and kind, not out of terror of being sent into eternal hell-fire.

personaly i think god would smile upon agnostic and atheists more than theists, if this is the general mentality. the honesty and decent human compassion are not real if it is installed as a reaction to fear alone.


it is a false kindness if you wouldent do it without a god to punish and reward, because lets not forget that theists also do good deeds to get into heaven. which is also selfish and not true compassion towards others, it is personal gain.

peace.

Well said Chi, thanks :)

Most people don't think lying is wrong, they actually think it is practical and expedient. Like camouflage.

I don't where you live but over here most people think lying is wrong :bugeye:

I don't where you live but over here most people think lying is wrong :bugeye:

I'm talking about practise, not flapping lips.

I'm talking about practise, not flapping lips.

I'm talking about practice too, and how does this relate to the topic anyway ?

After all, without a belief in God, atheists can lie and believe they are free from supernatural repercussions. But, should you trust such a person?

Religious and moral values are often not the same. My trust would vary from person to person. While their religion might strengthen their honesty, atheism and honesty aren't mutually exclusive.

So, atheists - what is your proof that lying is wrong, then?

Telling things that are contrary to what you know to be true is telling someone something that is false or negative or hurtful. If you tell someone something that is untrue to hurt them and help yourself , I think you can logically assume that you know its wrong.

plus we have this nifty thing called society that happens to be made up of a massive ammount of people from all walks of life that have agreed for the most part that lying=wrong

So, atheists - what is your proof that lying is wrong, then?

I'm not going to try and replicate Kant's moral theory here, but he presents a number of arguments why lying is wrong none of which depend on the existence of god. The major points are (1) that one acts morally (and tells the truth) because one wants others to do the same, and (2) to lie is to undermine the basic system of trust that enables society to function. So lying is wrong because of its effects on the individual's self-worth, the individual's acceptance by others, and the good of society as a whole.

Might I also point out that I'm not aware of any biblical passage (or teaching from any other major religion) that says if you tell any lie you'll suffer god's wrath.

So, atheists - what is your proof that lying is wrong, then?

You need proof of that ? :crazy:

lying r bad?!

Yes. Prove to me lying is wrong, so that I may come to believe there is evidence that people without religion won't be liars.

So, atheists - what is your proof that lying is wrong, then?

Do we not have eyes, can we not see, do we not have feelings, can we not feel?........

I...am not..an animalllll...
I...am an....atheist :cool:

Lying may be bad for the recipient, but can be very beneficial to the teller.

Yes. Prove to me lying is wrong, so that I may come to believe there is evidence that people without religion won't be liars.

How do you feel when someone lies to you?

I believe we keep telling you that society says that lying is wrong hence the people in the society mostly will think its wrong.

Appealing to the fact that you are not an animal (which you are by the way), tells me nothing about whether there is any instinct not to lie.

Lying may be bad for the recipient, but can be very beneficial to the teller.

Lies catch up to you whether you believe in god or not. The boy who cried wolf learned that the hard way.

Society, at least in the U.S., is made up of mostly religious or atheists with close contact to religious. Just because U.S. society deems lying wrong, tells me nothing about whether an atheistic utopia would consider lying wrong.