I think it is possible, just becouse of the difference I could have made in my community and what I could have accomplished and how many criminal and insane things I have seen that should not have been. I can only imagine that things are similar in most places. What are your thoughts?

"Can we live in a eutopia society? "

No! of course not(well if you are defining Eutopia as a world without need and suffering). Human nature (while desiring it for ones self) does not permit equal sharing of that of which we desire. Vis a vis there will always be haves and have nots and opportunistic acquisition.

If a true Utopia could ever exist, its societal members would have to be true Utopians and that means they would not have and neither would they want, any personal rights or free will outside of the constraints induced by Utopias laws and regulations.

Humans, being what they are, can never be true Utopians, therefore Utopia could never exist as a long term and viable society.

Many religions, cults and political/philosophical ideologies have all tried to create Utopia, but the dream always ends in disaster.

If you wonder about Utopian societies, just try a little mental experiment.

Imagine that all the laws and rules and police and legal courts are removed from a city or town or area of people. Just take a moment to imagine it ...how some people will speed or drink and drive or discriminate or lash out or steal or......

Take a moment to think about how humans act and react. That reality alone should tell you that humans can't live without the force of law and the force of the police.

Humans live in a very large jail cell ......with the bars made of laws, rules, police, courts, customs, regulations,.... But it's a jail, nevertheless. And it can't be anything but.

Baron Max

Ok. My answers. I have two of them.

"Can we live in a eutopia?"
Yes, we can live in a eutopia.

"Will it happen?"
No.

"Can it happen?"
No.

Yeah, I think it's possible.

tisk tisk Roman

As a biologist, you should know better.

Yeah, I think it's possible.

How?

I'm sure you've been to group parties or large parties where the people even argue violently about what to ordeer on the pizzas ....or argue about what music to listen to ...or argue about what to do.

How can you have lived in our society for very long without realizing that people can't interact without some form of controls over them? We even have to have speed limits to tell parents not to speed in school zones or around/near playgrounds. and you want to give them all total freedom???

Baron Max

Human nature is not suffering, it's just that many stupid people have been selfish an blind to the nature of reality. I could create utopia, and it would indeed be perfect.

Anybody wanna go out?

Utopia doesn't mean total freedom; it's an ideal.

If you wonder about Utopian societies, just try a little mental experiment.

Imagine that all the laws and rules and police and legal courts are removed from a city or town or area of people. Just take a moment to imagine it ...how some people will speed or drink and drive or discriminate or lash out or steal or......

Take a moment to think about how humans act and react. That reality alone should tell you that humans can't live without the force of law and the force of the police.

Humans live in a very large jail cell ......with the bars made of laws, rules, police, courts, customs, regulations,.... But it's a jail, nevertheless. And it can't be anything but.

Baron Max
Our present lack of readines for an Utopia does not presume that an Utopia cannot exist.

I believe you made a big fallacy... huuummm... :rolleyes:

Human nature is not suffering, it's just that many stupid people have been selfish an blind to the nature of reality. I could create utopia, and it would indeed be perfect.

Anybody wanna go out?
:rolleyes:

Stop thinking with your wheiner! :D

It's funny how this thread ended up in Business&Economics section... :confused:

Our present lack of readines for an Utopia does not presume that an Utopia cannot exist.

I believe you made a big fallacy... huuummm... :rolleyes:

No but the evolution of mankind indeed does mean it cant. That is your fallacy.

No but the evolution of mankind indeed does mean it cant. That is your fallacy.
How about giving me some proof for your argument? :rolleyes:

Well I could give you the evidence of our entire recorded history, together with the evidence that virtually every species(if not every species(I dont know some may say bonobos could be an exception)) on the planet that do not live to a Eutopian ideal . Maybe you believe in fairy stories coming true though, I dont know.

This is a fallacy similar to the fallacy of population....

This is a fallacy similar to the fallacy of population....

Bullcrap! fairyboy.

I think it is possible, just becouse of the difference I could have made in my community and what I could have accomplished and how many criminal and insane things I have seen that should not have been. I can only imagine that things are similar in most places. What are your thoughts?


Why did you start this thread in the economic section?

It depends on your definition of the word utopia. I personally believe that we could create something that could be called a utopian society. I don’t believe that it is possible to create a society where suffering does not exist. But I do believe that is possible to irradiate all of the excessive suffering in the world. I believe that we could create a global society where every person possessed all of the privileges that are required to live a long happy life.

Unfortunately it is highly unlikely that humanity will create anything close to a utopian society in the future. Our technology will continue to evolve and we will create new products to make our lives easier and more enjoyable. But I am sure that there will be people out there that are ready and willing to use the technology of the future to spread misery, death, and destruction for their own personal gain.

Consider the words of that emminent philosopher, Agent Smith: Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world. Where none suffered. Where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this, the peak of your civilization

Why did you start this thread in the economic section? Money is the root of all evil! Jelousy, greed, envy. Some people find keeping someone else from getting something is just as good as them gaining it, the insecure type who need someone to look down upon to feel better. They would be the wall! Not that a utopia would be without any sadness or suffering.

Why did you start this thread in the economic section? Money is the root of all evil! Jelousy, greed, envy. Some people find keeping someone else from getting something is just as good as them gaining it, the insecure type who need someone to look down upon to feel better. They would be the wall! Not that a utopia would be without any sadness or suffering.


Good and evil are subjective emotional experiences. I would say that ignorance is the root of all evil. We were killing, stealing, and raping each other a long time before we created currencies. The evil that you speak of is something that exists within us. It comes from our inability to be in complete control of the chemical reactions in our body. It comes from some people’s inability to obtain the things that they need and desire in life without causing any involuntary harm to other people in the process.

Human nature (while desiring it for ones self) does not
Human nature bah blah blah. The human nature fallacy is not a valid argument. You cannot use the human nature fallacy in a logical discussion.

Human nature bah blah blah. The human nature fallacy is not a valid argument. You cannot use the human nature fallacy in a logical discussion.

What you chatting about moron? I can use just that arguement in a discussion involving human social harmony.
Beside are you so mentally challenged that you have to use the same ill thought out assertion of fallacy as the other uneducated dreamer.

(originally posted by q0101)"The evil that you speak of is something that exists within us. It comes from our inability to be in complete control of the chemical reactions in our body. It comes from some people’s inability to obtain the things that they need and desire in life without causing any involuntary harm to other people in the process."
That evil is not within me or most of society, are we going to suffer for a few?. Why has things been so bad at times, and so good at other times if it is a natural chemical reaction? Why does certain cultures and communities have different amounts of crime, human rights, freedoms?

Humans are already in utopian world.

(If you not joking, dragon)You can pretend if you want, or just not see! No offence but I know different, and im not speaking for myself.

That evil is not within me or most of society, are we going to suffer for a few?

Oh, c'mon, Kendall, who are you trying to kid? If you don't have that "evil" in you, then you aren't human!! You're a fuckin' sociopath or psychopath instead.

But as to the suffering of the many for the actions of a few? That's been going on since the beginning of human history ...and is likely to continue in the same or greater ways. It's one of the prices we pay for the luxuries of our society.

Why does certain cultures and communities have different amounts of crime, human rights, freedoms?

Because they're different! They have different ethics, different ideas of justice, diffferent ideas of religion, different ideas of human rights, etc. Because they're different, other things are different, too.

Baron Max

Humans are already in utopian world. You can pretend if you want, or just not see!

That, of course, is a pretty silly, asinine thing to say. And to think that you typed it out here for everyone to read it?! Wow.

Baron Max

I think a Utopian society would require exactly equal, harmonious value of everything to every member of society.

That value (of everything/anything) varies is not human nature necessrily, but the nature of a system of individual perspectives.

If that is indeed the case, then no it could not.

It could be "better" from the perspective of many within it, but Utopia is an unobtainable theoretical maximum.

tisk tisk Roman

As a biologist, you should know better.

What about biology doesn't allow organisms to live together?

That, of course, is a pretty silly, asinine thing to say. And to think that you typed it out here for everyone to read it?! Wow.

Baron Max

It's a matter of opinion don't you think?

I can construct a strong argument for "obviously, everything is perfect", which IMO, would support his assertion.

It's a point of view thing.

For instance, I believe "all is necesarily as it must be". It's fundamentally because if thinks "must have been different", then they would be. *shrug*

So really everything is perfect, depending upon how you look at it - and some people may not be able to look at it that way at all. While one might find things to be necessarily as they must be, we are all free to bitch and moan about anything.

I would however, disagree that we live in utopia, or that we can ever do so because regardless there will always be individuals who purport dissatisfaction, as not all that is valued can be attained.

Originally Posted by Kendall
Humans are already in utopian world. You can pretend if you want, or just not see!

(Baron max-That, of course, is a pretty silly, asinine thing to say. And to think that you typed it out here for everyone to read it?! Wow.)

So you mean you think this is utopia? what does asinine mean?

So you mean you think this is utopia? what does asinine mean?

No stretch of the definition would make what we have now a Eutopia. Come on! half of the worlds population is dying of starvation, war or disease.

It's a matter of opinion don't you think?

I can construct a strong argument for "obviously, everything is perfect", which IMO, would support his assertion.

Sure you could ....but how many people in the world would laugh at you for it??? ...LOL!

I'm sure you could make an argument for the benefits of AIDS, too. Or the joys and benefits of cancer. Or the joys of having a psychopathic baby killer as your own brother. But.....?

Baron Max

“ Originally Posted by Kendall
Why does certain cultures and communities have different amounts of crime, human rights, freedoms? ”

Because they're different! They have different ethics, different ideas of justice, diffferent ideas of religion, different ideas of human rights, etc. Because they're different, other things are different, too.

Baron Max

Exactly what I was getting at, I could not have said it better!

(If you not joking, dragon)You can pretend if you want, or just not see! No offence but I know different, and im not speaking for myself.

Humans make their own universe, utilize it to their own needs. There no Gods to foresee and guide us. Humans die and reborn once again to live in another setting, so that the universe is an ever changing and ever adapting place, striking for perfection, never unattainable and always present within us all.

In an ever changing biological world, the universe creates the best "normal" setting for anything existing, humans are objects of the universe, they exist in the best ever suitable for them place, because that is the place they exist in.

If heaven is utopia, life is heaven, life is utopia. Realize this, attain this, do not confront yourself.

Bullcrap! fairyboy.
Your wisdom is astonishing... :rolleyes:

What you chatting about moron? I can use just that arguement in a discussion involving human social harmony.
Beside are you so mentally challenged that you have to use the same ill thought out assertion of fallacy as the other uneducated dreamer.
He was right about that. Human nature is an appeal to nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

I think a Utopian society would require exactly equal, harmonious value of everything to every member of society.

That value (of everything/anything) varies is not human nature necessrily, but the nature of a system of individual perspectives.

If that is indeed the case, then no it could not.

It could be "better" from the perspective of many within it, but Utopia is an unobtainable theoretical maximum.
Not necessarily. People don't need to agree on everything. All that they need is a single value which supports diversity. That's all that is needed to be equal and harmonious in value.

I don't think you're seeing the big picture on that one, but okay.

What about biology doesn't allow organisms to live together?

Utopia is unchanging social perfection where every member of the human species gets along in perfect harmony, nobody ever goes hungry, and people deserve this somehow.

Such a system is not natural because humans are not wired for peaceful co-existence. We are designed to expand and then fight over scarce available resources. We murder, rape and steal from each other.

Our complex brains do not favor the group over the individual. Only creatures like ants - about as smart as a watch - because it gives them an edge. And even then, you have colonies of ants killing other colonies of ants. Cooperation is really only useful when it provides a competitive advantage over a competing niche species or group within that species.

It will not be tommorow but, greed, ignorance is over.

It will not be tommorow but, greed, ignorance is over.

Not as long as there's one single human remaining on Earth!

Baron Max

Utopia is unchanging social perfection where every member of the human species gets along in perfect harmony, nobody ever goes hungry, and people deserve this somehow.

Such a system is not natural because humans are not wired for peaceful co-existence. We are designed to expand and then fight over scarce available resources. We murder, rape and steal from each other.

Our complex brains do not favor the group over the individual. Only creatures like ants - about as smart as a watch - because it gives them an edge. And even then, you have colonies of ants killing other colonies of ants. Cooperation is really only useful when it provides a competitive advantage over a competing niche species or group within that species.

Straw man and false dichotomy.
Try again.

Humans are a quite different than ants, evil is getting difficult to hide.

What you chatting about moron? I can use just that arguement in a discussion involving
You cannot use logical fallacies in discussions. They get the discussion nowhere.

Humans are a quite different than ants, evil is getting difficult to hide.

Humans are very resourseful ..if nothing else! Criminal minds can find ways to hide from almost any form of scrutiny almost as soon as we can devised methods to scrutinize them!

By the way, I also think that humans are quite different to ants ...ants are better animals!

Baron Max

Yea more natural, There is some strange organization going on in a anthill for sure, but they dont do much minning or writing, well I can not see any rock carvings and I never saw a ant read a book yet. I guess i am to sarcastic sometimes, I have increasingly gotten sarcastic and a little out there over the years.

Your wisdom is astonishing... :rolleyes:

It sure is. Evolution!(survival of the fitest) learn about it!

You cannot use logical fallacies in discussions. They get the discussion nowhere.

You cannot use words from other people that you dont understand the misapplication of in a grownups discussion.

Can we live in a eutopia society?
Where in Nature does one find the truly harmonious state of things -- in general and of their properties?

The vacuum of space.

Yet, Nature compels that the Vacuum be amply punctuated by all manner of discordant forms of interacting matters and energies.

One has to wonder why Nature felt the need for more than just the "harmonious state of" the Vacuum if Utopia was all that was worth aspiring to.

Were different than everything else in nature. Words just dont say it all, sorry

You cannot use words from other people that you dont understand the misapplication of in a grownups discussion.
You never said anything about evolution. How about actually making your point whether then saying empty words? :rolleyes:

You never said anything about evolution. How about actually making your point whether then saying empty words? :rolleyes:

Oh I appologize for not making that clear for dummies sooner..

Oh I appologize for not making that clear for dummies sooner..
It's not that you made it clear- you didnt' say it at all! I'm not a psychic, ya know? :bugeye:

Actually I did mention it, although I didn't make it clear that I meant that the evolution of our rapacious basis evolved long, long before homo sapiens.

No but the evolution of mankind indeed does mean it cant. That is your fallacy.

Someone needs to define "Utopia" first. Is it a place where all people are perfectly happy? Or just a place where there is no dire suffering, starvation, and wars? How strict does this definition need to be?

I think a lax definition is something for us to strive towards, and I think our species has done a pretty good job of approaching it. It wasn't that long ago that a single human would own a vast region of land, and everyone living on it was subject to his/her whim, and eked out a very meager existence just trying to subsist. The experiments of capitalism and democracy are revolutions from the left, and very recent ones. They are not the bastions of conservatism they pretend to be. They are the political and economic systems of near-perfect liberty. You can only see this if you look at what systems we had before. Classes were determined by birth alone, feudalism and slavery were the norm. There was no concept of conservation or the preservation of species and the environment. Hunger was the norm.

I think that capitalism and democracy are going to continue to spread, and people will get used to new freedoms, and wealth will replace starvation. Surely that is at least approaching some unattainable Utopia, right?

I think that capitalism and democracy are going to continue to spread, and people will get used to new freedoms, and wealth will replace starvation.
For some it will. The whole principle of capitalism is there are a minority of wealthy people who have pushed poorer people out of the way(and those poor dont necessarily have to be in your own country to prop up that capitalism).


Surely that is at least approaching some unattainable Utopia, right?

No, that of which you are painting up is nowhere near approaching Eutopia when you zoom out to reveal the whole picture.

Actually I did mention it, although I didn't make it clear that I meant that the evolution of our rapacious basis evolved long, long before homo sapiens.
Ok. Let's put this back into perspective...

----------------------
Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
Our present lack of readines for an Utopia does not presume that an Utopia cannot exist.

I believe you made a big fallacy... huuummm...
-----------------------

No but the evolution of mankind indeed does mean it cant. That is your fallacy.
Ok. That is another fallacy. That is an appeal to nature. And worse, it's also an ignorant statement. Which was precisely my point. When we only had amoeba, would the amoeba ever imagine that someday they would evolve into human beings? No. So if we don't have an utopia, we can't also ever imagine a working utopia because we live in a very different system. We are evolving. Someday, we might evolve into an utopia. In fact, we are always perfecting ourselves, so we will either evolve into an utopia (which I personally define as a perfectly functional society) or we will be completely anihilated! :m:

Ok. Let's put this back into perspective...


Ok. That is another fallacy. That is an appeal to nature. And worse, it's also an ignorant statement. Which was precisely my point. When we only had amoeba, would the amoeba ever imagine that someday they would evolve into human beings? No. So if we don't have an utopia, we can't also ever imagine a working utopia because we live in a very different system. We are evolving. Someday, we might evolve into an utopia. In fact, we are always perfecting ourselves, so we will either evolve into an utopia (which I personally define as a perfectly functional society) or we will be completely anihilated! :m:

No no no, let me spell it out for you. Evolution by its very nature is a process of dystopia, its not what is evolved but the process itself that demands survival of the fittest. Jesus what a dick!

Humans live in a very large jail cell ......with the bars made of laws, rules, police, courts, customs, regulations,.... But it's a jail, nevertheless. And it can't be anything but.

Baron Max
that's pretty clever, actually, maybe your name should be changed to "Baron Max Weber" (Look it up if you're not familiar, his 'Iron bars' theory is a pretty similiar concept)

kudos to you

No no no, let me spell it out for you. Evolution by its very nature is a process of dystopia, its not what is evolved but the process itself that demands survival of the fittest. Jesus what a dick!
As I said, that is an appeal to nature.

Looks like you are the one who's a dick.... :rolleyes:

that's pretty clever, actually, maybe your name should be changed to "Baron Max Weber" (Look it up if you're not familiar, his 'Iron bars' theory is a pretty similiar concept)

kudos to you
Yes indeed! Never seen something so incredibly clever! :rolleyes:
I might as well call the average american voter clever too! :rolleyes:

As I said, that is an appeal to nature.

:

What bollocks are you talking now?

Utopia? Maybe in some places.
Your own personal cloud of euphoria? Absolutely.

What bollocks are you talking now?
I'm not here to teach you logic. I'm hear to have a discussion. If you don't know logic, I'm afraid you will have to learn about it before you can argue with me.

You cannot use words from other people that you dont understand the misapplication of in a grownups discussion.
Get real. Try defining human nature, and proving it.

If you wonder about Utopian societies, just try a little mental experiment.

Imagine that all the laws and rules and police and legal courts are removed from a city or town or area of people. Just take a moment to imagine it ...how some people will speed or drink and drive or discriminate or lash out or steal or......

Take a moment to think about how humans act and react. That reality alone should tell you that humans can't live without the force of law and the force of the police.

Humans live in a very large jail cell ......with the bars made of laws, rules, police, courts, customs, regulations,.... But it's a jail, nevertheless. And it can't be anything but.

Baron Max

You wrongly assume that bars made of laws, etc. are the only possible type of bars.

You wrongly assume that bars made of laws, etc. are the only possible type of bars.

And just where did you find that assumption in anything that I posted???

Baron Max

Get real. Try defining human nature, and proving it.

An overwhelming basal drive of non fairy tale(eutopia) like ambition. Theres no semantics to be argued in this one John Paul.