It was bound to happen.

At any rate, a Washington Post article: Evangelical Christian leaders expressed dismay yesterday over President Bush's statement that Christians and Muslims worship the same god, saying it had caused discomfort within his conservative religious base. But most predicted that the political impact would be short-lived.

At a news conference with Prime Minister Tony Blair in England on Thursday, a reporter noted that Bush has often said that freedom is a gift from "the Almighty" but questioned whether Bush believes that "Muslims worship the same Almighty" that he does.

"I do say that freedom is the Almighty's gift to every person," the president replied. "I also condition it by saying freedom is not America's gift to the world. It's much greater than that, of course. And I believe we worship the same god."

Bush's remarks sent immediate shock waves through Christian Web sites and radio broadcasts. A Baptist Press report quoted Richard D. Land, president of the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination, as saying that Bush "is simply mistaken."I'm just going to go over to the corner, light a bong, and duck.

After all, what could I say to set the tone of this topic any better than Mr. Bush himself?

• Cooperman, Alan. "Bush's Remark About God Assailed." Washington Post, November 22, 2003, Page A6. see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4697-2003Nov21.html

Christian fanatics are destroying the world....imagine having CHRISTIAN MULLAH in the white house, how many days before he launch a new crusade to kill by the name of Jesus ?

Scenes of sins and punishment will now be a sit-down show :

It's back: After a year without a home, Hell House is planting its stake at Vision Fellowship Assemblies of God Church, 9191 N. Washington St.

Pastor Ray Smith announced Sunday to his flock that their church will host the controversial morality play - and crowds possibly in the thousands - during the last two weekends in October.

The church is in a former shopping center that lends itself better to a stage play, not a series of walk-through vignettes as Hell House had been since debuting in 1995, said the Rev. Keenan Roberts. He's the former youth pastor who launched Hell House at the Arvada church where he formerly worked.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/fundamentalists/fund115.html

Bush is either pretending to be a Christian, or that he knows very little of Christian values.

Well, there you have it folks - like it or not, the "Big 3" all worship the same, hateful, war-mongering god of confusion. Of course, I think most of us outside of that peculiar little triangle have realized that quite clearly all along, but I'm amazed that anyone on the inside would actually be able to see the forest for all those damned trees. :D

Originally posted by Nehushta
Well, there you have it folks - like it or not, the "Big 3" all worship the same, hateful, war-mongering god of confusion. Of course, I think most of us outside of that peculiar little triangle have realized that quite clearly all along, but I'm amazed that anyone on the inside would actually be able to see the forest for all those damned trees. :D

Why you dont follow your ATHIEST heros such as Hitler or maybe STALIN in their ''humane'' ways when dealing with humanity ????

:rolleyes:

Bush is either pretending to be a ChristianMost days I would agree with you, except that in this case that agreement might be irrelevant: How many Christians in America aren't pretending? or that he knows very little of Christian valuesHe has to know them in order to exploit them. But I won't pretend that he actually genuinely cares.

But check this out:Yusufali translation: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks; except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

Pickthal translation: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them, except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

Shakir translation: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

Khalifa translation: They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies. Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

(Quran, 4.89-90 (http://www.universalunity.net/quran4/004.qmt.html))The irony here is that George W. Bush, it seems, would rather be a Muslim. The above sounds more like the GW Bush that holds the Oval Office than: "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5.38-ff, RSV (http://wyllie.lib.virginia.edu:8086/perl/toccer-new?id=RsvMatt.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=5&division=div1))Perhaps GWB needs to pick up on his Daily Bible Study (http://www.execulink.com/~wblank/cheek.htm).

Seriously ... which one sounds like a noble description of our President?

Originally posted by tiassa
Most days I would agree with you, except that in this case that agreement might be irrelevant: How many Christians in America aren't pretending? He has to know them in order to exploit them. But I won't pretend that he actually genuinely cares.

But check this out:The irony here is that George W. Bush, it seems, would rather be a Muslim. The above sounds more like the GW Bush that holds the Oval Office than: Perhaps GWB needs to pick up on his Daily Bible Study (http://www.execulink.com/~wblank/cheek.htm).

Seriously ... which one sounds like a noble description of our President?
Seriously, I believe Bush behaves like a Christian, and he is fighting evil and the devil with all his power. Perhaps he should stop quoting phrases which he intends to be Christian-like. He makes mistakes, which is why many people are Christian.

All Christians make mistakes during their life, and turn to God for forgiveness and guidance. There is no such thing as a perfect Christian, but they try to be as perfect as they can by following the teachings and examples shown by Jesus.

Vienna,

He makes mistakes, which is why many people are Christian.I doubt you meant to say it quite like that but my immediate image was of people converting to Christianity en masse as GWB continuously quotes mistake after mistake.

I'm not sure there should be any pride in making mistakes. Better education tends to help quite a bit, and some intelliegnce of course.

How about this attitude as well?

"The very first act of the new Bush administration was to have a Protestant Evangelist minister officially dedicate the inauguration to Jesus Christ, whom he declared to be 'our savior.' Invoking 'the Father, the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ' and 'the Holy Spirit,' Billy Graham's son, the man selected by President George W. Bush to bless his presidency, excluded the tens of millions of Americans who are Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Unitarians, agnostics, and atheists from his blessing by his particularistic and parochial language.

"The plain message conveyed by the new administration is that George W. Bush's America is a Christian nation and that non-Christians are welcome into the tent so long as they agree to accept their status as a tolerated minority rather than as fully equal citizens. In effect, Bush is saying: 'This is our home, and in our home we pray to Jesus as our savior. If you want to be a guest in our home, you must accept the way we pray.'"

-- Alan M. Dershowitz, in "Bush Starts Off by Defying the the Constitution," Los Angeles Times, January 24, 2001

Perhaps GWB is now trying to correct this early mistake.

Originally posted by Cris
Vienna,

I doubt you meant to say it quite like that but my immediate image was of people converting to Christianity en masse as GWB continuously quotes mistake after mistake.

I'm not sure there should be any pride in making mistakes. Better education tends to help quite a bit, and some intelliegnce of course.
Cris,

You are right, I didn't mean it to come out like that. What I was trying to say was that most people when they think of a "Christians", it conjures images of a righteous people with impeccable values, who follow the good ways in life and are never wrong. . This is not true. All kinds of people are Christians, good and bad people, Bishops to murderers, and just because someone has done something bad in their life doesn't mean they can't be a Christian.

Just because someone fouls up in their life does not mean they are not a Christian. And they can carry on being Christians for as long as they recognise their errors and try to amend them, and ask for forgiveness and guidance, and continue to follow the teachings and examples shown by Jesus.

Vienna,

Yes I understand.

But I see the Christian belief and expectation of forgiveness as somewhat immoral. It discourages people from taking a greater effort to prevent mistakes and from taking greater responsibility for their actions.

There are a few things in my life that I wish had not occurred. I look back and cringe. But there is nothing I can do about them, the deeds are done, they are out there, they are undoable, and I have to live with those mistakes. But what this does for me is make me focus more carefully on not making the same mistakes again. There is no forgiveness and no way out. I am responsible for my own actions.

The Christian, unfortunately has no such moral responsibility because they believe they need only ask for forgiveness and the slate is wiped clean. Their sense of responsibility for their actions must necessarily be far less than my own.

This is a definite downside to Christianity.

Originally posted by Cris
Vienna,

Yes I understand.

But I see the Christian belief and expectation of forgiveness as somewhat immoral. It discourages people from taking a greater effort to prevent mistakes and from taking greater responsibility for their actions.

There are a few things in my life that I wish had not occurred. I look back and cringe. But there is nothing I can do about them, the deeds are done, they are out there, they are undoable, and I have to live with those mistakes. But what this does for me is make me focus more carefully on not making the same mistakes again. There is no forgiveness and no way out. I am responsible for my own actions.

The Christian, unfortunately has no such moral responsibility because they believe they need only ask for forgiveness and the slate is wiped clean. Their sense of responsibility for their actions must necessarily be far less than my own.

This is a definite downside to Christianity.
Great post Cris

You say that you see the Christian belief and expectation of forgiveness as somewhat immoral. It discourages people from taking a greater effort to prevent mistakes and from taking greater responsibility for their actions.

Forgiveness should never be an open passport to wrong again, if someone treats forgiveness this way then IMO they are not Christian. A true Christian will be grateful for a second chance and to use this opportunity in improving their life as taught by Jesus. You must learn by your mistakes and make a great effort never to fail in that area again.

Cris, whatever has happened in your life it IS forgiveable. I don't know what you have done, nor do I wish to pry. The most important thing I can say to you is that you do not deserve to carry such a burden, no matter how great you think it is. The most terrible wrongs on this Earth are forgiveable, isn't that why Jesus died. Sorry, I know those last words don't mean anything to you anymore, but you must realise that you are already forgiven. If there is no guilt there is no forgiveness.

And whether you believe in Jesus's teachings or not, I believe you have already been forgiven. Stop carrying that weight and start living the rest of your life to the full, as a Christian or as a non Christian, you deserve it!

Originally posted by tiassa
It was bound to happen.

At any rate, a Washington Post article: I'm just going to go over to the corner, light a bong, and duck.

After all, what could I say to set the tone of this topic any better than Mr. Bush himself?

• Cooperman, Alan. "Bush's Remark About God Assailed." Washington Post, November 22, 2003, Page A6. see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4697-2003Nov21.html



Interesting post tiassa, and offcourse very interesting remarks. No matter how much they deny they ( Baptists ) don't know that the whole world worships the same God. The God in heavens above. Not the Jesus God, not the Bagwan God, not the Shiva God, not the Allah God, neither any other God but that One entity, Almighty God. But sadly this group of extreme christians don't get it. If you notice vienna's remarks you can simply see how right I am. As long as people don't understand the concept of God there will be problems and there will be etremists either christians or muslims. There will always be people who like or dislike these remarks. It doesn't make Bush less christian or some one else more christian. I hope you see my point.

Originally posted by Vienna
Great post Cris

Forgiveness should never be an open passport to wrong again, if someone treats forgiveness this way then IMO they are not Christian. A true Christian will be grateful for a second chance and to use this opportunity in improving their life as taught by Jesus. You must learn by your mistakes and make a great effort never to fail in that area again.
!


Vienna, what difference does it make? If I am a christian and commit sins all my life, am I still going to heaven? I think I will, if I believe in christ as my saviour and that he died for my sins. Then what is there to stop me?

Who is the hell for? Are there any bad Christians who will go to hell? or will they all be save? and if they all will be save then the rest of the world will go to hell? Please think before you answer.

Vienna,

Forgiveness should never be an open passport to wrong again, if someone treats forgiveness this way then IMO they are not Christian.Agreed. But that isn’t the issue.

A true Christian will be grateful for a second chance and to use this opportunity in improving their life as taught by Jesus.And that is the problem. There is no second chance.

You must learn by your mistakes and make a great effort never to fail in that area again.But real life is not a video game where you can reset the score and start again. Your mistakes are permanent. The slate cannot be wiped clean.

Cris, whatever has happened in your life it IS forgiveable. I don't know what you have done, nor do I wish to pry. Don’t let your imagination take over here; my past actions are nothing in particular other than some things I would rather not have said. It is the principle that is the issue here.

The most important thing I can say to you is that you do not deserve to carry such a burden, no matter how great you think it is.Like I said, actions taken cannot be taken back. Dealing with mistakes and learning how to deal with them is an important part of real life and reality. It is largely through adversity and difficulties that we learn and grow and gain wisdom. Trying to pretend through religion that we are not really responsible is indefensible and immoral. Once we accept our own faults and understand that we must take personal responsibility for them helps us better understand others and enables us to help them.

The most terrible wrongs on this Earth are forgiveable, isn't that why Jesus died.That’s certainly the claim but it seems more like a sales gimmick in religious indoctrination. It is trying to make people feel there is an escape from their feelings of guilt, but there isn’t. The real lesson in life is accepting responsibility for your actions and knowing that you must live with them. Trying to make them vanish is irresponsible escapism.

Sorry, I know those last words don't mean anything to you anymore, but you must realise that you are already forgiven. If there is no guilt there is no forgiveness.I understand what you mean perfectly, but is has no meaning neither it is useful for dealing with reality or how humanity must learn to deal with their problems in a responsible manner. Giving up their responsibilities to a fantasy god keeps mankind from socially evolving.

And whether you believe in Jesus's teachings or not, I believe you have already been forgiven. Forgiveness is not what is needed; the idea is over simplistic and rather infantile. The issue is how to come to terms with past mistakes and to take full responsibility for future actions.

Interestingly this is the primary issue within the Church of Scientology (the L Ron Hubbard religion). They label such issues as psychological engrams and help their adherents ‘clear’ such inhibitions. I spent some time researching them about 3 years ago; I have of course since been permanently expelled – it seemed I asked too many questions. But some of the principles they have identified are quite sound.

No, praying for forgiveness from an imaginary deity is simply irresponsible and attempts to sidestep real solutions.

Stop carrying that weight and start living the rest of your life to the full, as a Christian or as a non Christian, you deserve it!You miss the point somewhat. It is not a weight but a reminder of reality and responsibility. Christians try to avoid both.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Why you dont follow your ATHIEST heros such as Hitler or maybe STALIN in their ''humane'' ways when dealing with humanity ????

:rolleyes:

To the best of my knowledge, Hitler was not an atheist, and he is most certainly not my hero and neither is Stalin. By the way, I find it kind of funny that you automatically paint anyone who is not a follower of any of the Abramic religions as an atheist. What a narrow little world you must live in. :rolleyes:

But while we're at it, shall we discuss some of the heroes of Islam and their humane ways of dealing with humanity? Ayatollah Khomeini? Muammar Qaddafi? Saddam Hussein? Osama bin Laden? Hafez al-Assad? Do any of these names ring a bell for you?

Originally posted by Markx
Vienna, what difference does it make? If I am a christian and commit sins all my life, am I still going to heaven? I think I will, if I believe in christ as my saviour and that he died for my sins. Then what is there to stop me?

Who is the hell for? Are there any bad Christians who will go to hell? or will they all be save? and if they all will be save then the rest of the world will go to hell? Please think before you answer.
Please think before you answer.

Likewise!

You obviously do not and perhaps never will understand the principles of Christianity, and I am not ever likely to explain them to the likes of you. Why should I, you'd only try to mock them, thats your style isn't it?

Perhaps you can explain it. This is something I agree with Markx here. Perhaps there is more to this and you can clarify it for me.

Originally posted by Cris
Vienna, But real life is not a video game where you can reset the score and start again. Your mistakes are permanent. The slate cannot be wiped clean.
That applies to everyone on this planet

Like I said, actions taken cannot be taken back. Dealing with mistakes and learning how to deal with them is an important part of real life and reality. It is largely through adversity and difficulties that we learn and grow and gain wisdom.
I agree.

Trying to pretend through religion that we are not really responsible is indefensible and immoral.
Exactly. There are people like this too, total frauds. But on the other hand there are geniune people who take the Lords forgiveness in the correct and most serious way, and they do benefit from it.

Once we accept our own faults and understand that we must take personal responsibility for them helps us better understand others and enables us to help them.
It is only right that what you say is followed, and only then can forgiveness be given.

That’s certainly the claim but it seems more like a sales gimmick in religious indoctrination. It is trying to make people feel there is an escape from their feelings of guilt, but there isn’t. The real lesson in life is accepting responsibility for your actions and knowing that you must live with them. Trying to make them vanish is irresponsible escapism.
It seems that I have a different outlook to "Forgiveness". Jesus's death at the cross should never be used as some sort of sales gimmick. I have seen chick tracts and such, they are so degrading so I am not suprised you called it a sales gimmick.

There is always guilt when forgiveness is given, without guilt there is no forgiveness. Forgiveness is not there to ease the pain of guilt , forgiveness is from the Lord, which contributes to your continuation on your path as a Christian. It is not a case of "plunk plink fizz" have a couple of tablets, "there there now you will feel better". This couldn't be further from the truth

I understand what you mean perfectly, but is has no meaning neither it is useful for dealing with reality or how humanity must learn to deal with their problems in a responsible manner. Giving up their responsibilities to a fantasy god keeps mankind from socially evolving.
Giving up responsibilities is not the issue, just because you are forgiven, it doesn't take away the self punishing guilt away in a flash, you have to learn from it.

Forgiveness is not what is needed; the idea is over simplistic and rather infantile. The issue is how to come to terms with past mistakes and to take full responsibility for future actions.
Forgiveness has always been over simplistic and infantile, (Thats probably why He is called Our Father, we are His children.) How to come to terms with past mistakes is something everyone in the world has to face, we all make them. Forgiveness is not a pardon, it is not an excuse to go out and kill another person or any other wrong doing, forgiveness is a stepping stone to help along the path and life of a Christian.

Interestingly this is the primary issue within the Church of Scientology (the L Ron Hubbard religion). They label such issues as psychological engrams and help their adherents ‘clear’ such inhibitions. I spent some time researching them about 3 years ago; I have of course since been permanently expelled – it seemed I asked too many questions. But some of the principles they have identified are quite sound.
Wow, expelled eh?
What on earth do they want you to do, just sit there and say nothing. No one gets anywhere without asking questions.

]It is not a weight but a reminder of reality and responsibility. Christians try to avoid both.
True Christians do not avoid reality and responsibility, these are (amongst others) qualities which jesus preached.

Cris, I must add that I do not believe I can be a Christian myself although my preferences in Faith point towards Jesus. I have so many doubts, I have lost my temper with God, I have ridiculed the idea of Jesus myself,. But sooner or later it all comes back again and it all makes sense. I stopped going to church, I learned nothing there. In fact I have learned more from the internet than I could ever wish for. I don't agree with everything in the Bible, it is just like any other book of faith it is riddled with errors. But I took my time and read it, and I took from it the most meaningful passages. Tailor made eh? Sort of.

:)

Originally posted by Vienna
Please think before you answer.

Likewise!

You obviously do not and perhaps never will understand the principles of Christianity, and I am not ever likely to explain them to the likes of you. Why should I, you'd only try to mock them, thats your style isn't it?


I haven't mock your religion YET. When I will, you won't stay here very long. So, it has been you, who shows you illiteracy and ignorance about Islam. Do you want me Mock christianity?? Do you want me start acting like YOU? A total ignorant? I don't think it will help any one. However you think that mocking Islam is helping you getting your frustration out or something like that.:rolleyes:

But sadly this group of extreme christians don't get it. If you notice vienna's remarks you can simply see how right I am.

First of all I don't consider myself as a Christian in the total sense of the word, although my preferences are towards Jesus in terms of Faith. So don't ever refer to me as an extreme christian again, get your facts right.

You terrorist christians really worship him don't ya?
Did I pushed the wrong button?? Isn't G W bush self claimed GOD?? Don't you all baptists worship him? I mean he is a christian fundamentlist and you all I mean you and vienna like that stuff..... correct??
Wrong, I am not a terrorist or a fundamental christian either.

I can be Atheist at a drop of a hat, then what would you call me?

Originally posted by Vienna
First of all I don't consider myself as a Christian in the total sense of the word, although my preferences are towards Jesus in terms of Faith. So don't ever refer to me as an extreme christian again, get your facts right.

You are an extermist christian. You know it very well. Don't ya? Admit it friend. Please don't run away from a simple fact.

Originally posted by Vienna
Wrong, I am not a terrorist or a fundamental christian either.

I can be Atheist at a drop of a hat, then what would you call me?

I don't see above written by me, were you replying to some one else?

Originally posted by Markx
You are an extermist christian. You know it very well. Don't ya? Admit it friend. Please don't run away from a simple fact.
Sorry to disappoint you Markx, but I am bordering between Christianity and Atheism, and I am very anti-Islam, surprise surprise.

Funny though, before 9/11 I had respect for Islam.

Originally posted by Markx
I don't see above written by me, were you replying to some one else?


Randolfo/vienna,



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Randolfo
No, he must be you, poor guy, poor deluded MarkX, living in a Matrix world of make-believe fables, go on, live a lie, follow the Father of Lies, or look & see if Christianity is the answer for you, before its too late
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I see it was written some where else for some one else but you replied here, interesting.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sound really angry when I say anything about G W Bush...ha. You terrorist christians really worship him don't ya?
Did I pushed the wrong button?? Isn't G W bush self claimed GOD?? Don't you all baptists worship him? I mean he is a christian fundamentlist and you all I mean you and vienna like that stuff..... correct??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Markx
I don't see above written by me, were you replying to some one else?
No, you wrote it in another thread....remember

I remember it well.

Originally posted by Vienna
Sorry to disappoint you Markx, but I am bordering between Christianity and Atheism, and I am very anti-Islam, surprise surprise.

Funny though, before 9/11 I had respect for Islam.

No you didn't respect anything about Islam, I mean seriously why would respect it?? I don't see you have any knowledge of it except your anti-islamic websites. And yes you are an extremist. You know it. Just admit it now.:o

Originally posted by Markx
No you didn't respect anything about Islam, I mean seriously why would respect it?? I don't see you have any knowledge of it except your anti-islamic websites. And yes you are an extremist. You know it. Just admit it now.:o
OK Markx

You taken it this far, time for a new thread I think.

Watch this space

Originally posted by Vienna
OK Markx

You taken it this far, time for a new thread I think.

Watch this space


Still waiting.................it is the best way out for you, to keep starting new threads and changing topics. No matter what other say the world should be according to your fundametlist ways..............:rolleyes:

I am not a fundamentalist, I don't class myself as a Christian (Your fellow muslims on this site call me Christian).
And the new thread was called Muslim???
Did you miss it?

Originally posted by Nehushta
To the best of my knowledge, Hitler was not an atheist, and he is most certainly not my hero and neither is Stalin. By the way, I find it kind of funny that you automatically paint anyone who is not a follower of any of the Abramic religions as an atheist. What a narrow little world you must live in. :rolleyes:



So Hitler was CHRISTIAN !!! I think Vienna will be very pleased by this finding.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
So Hitler was CHRISTIAN !!! I think Vienna will be very pleased by this finding.
Not really. Hitler was an evil bastard.

Originally posted by Vienna
I am not a fundamentalist, I don't class myself as a Christian (Your fellow muslims on this site call me Christian).
And the new thread was called Muslim???
Did you miss it?


Na, you are christian and a fundamentalist. You can't get away of that fact. You know it too.

Originally posted by Markx
Na, you are christian and a fundamentalist. You can't get away of that fact. You know it too.
Disappointed are we, nope, I'm not Christian although I do favour the Christian faith. The Jews are a nice bunch of people too, and I quite like them, but I do favour the teachings of Jesus. OK!

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
So Hitler was CHRISTIAN !!! I think Vienna will be very pleased by this finding.

There you go again thinking there are only 3 religions in this world. :rolleyes:

Hitler only aligned himself with the Christian religion when it suited him, but no - he wasn't really a Christian, either.

Originally posted by Nehushta
There you go again thinking there are only 3 religions in this world. :rolleyes:

Hitler only aligned himself with the Christian religion when it suited him, but no - he wasn't really a Christian, either. So what are you saying, that I'm using the Christian faith as an excuse to lead a nation and kill millions of Jews along with all the rest of his slaughters.

Grow up kid!

Originally posted by Vienna
Disappointed are we, nope, I'm not Christian although I do favour the Christian faith. The Jews are a nice bunch of people too, and I quite like them, but I do favour the teachings of Jesus. OK!

Wait!!

I am sorry, you are not christian, but you follow christ's teachings.

You are not christian, because you believe in divinity of christ.

You are not christian because you believe in Trinity.

You are not christian because you believe that he died for your sins.

You are not chrisitan because you believe that christian God is only true God.

And you are not christian because Christ is son of God.


Geez man, if you are not christian, then I think I am christian. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Vienna
So what are you saying, that I'm using the Christian faith as an excuse to lead a nation and kill millions of Jews along with all the rest of his slaughters.

Grow up kid!


You were thinking about, didn't you? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Vienna
First of all I don't consider myself as a Christian in the total sense of the word, although my preferences are towards Jesus in terms of Faith. So don't ever refer to me as an extreme christian again, get your facts right.

I can be Atheist at a drop of a hat, then what would you call me?

Sorry to disappoint you Markx, but I am bordering between Christianity and Atheism, and I am very anti-Islam, surprise surprise.


:confused:One would think that the differences between Christianity or Atheism is quite vast. You claim that you do not consider yourself a Christian in the total sense of the word but you tend to lean towards Jesus? Then you say that you are bordering on Atheism? How can someone be an Atheist at the drop of a hat? So you have your 'lets be christian today' hat and your 'lets be atheist today' hat? What you are bordering on Vienna is psychotic insanity. And the fact that you're anti-muslim is no surprise. In some previous threads you were also anti christian. So which is it to be? You're either an atheist where you dont believe in nothing, or you're a christian, where you believe in christ and god, etc. You can't skip between the two when it suits your purpose or your argument.

Funny though, before 9/11 I had respect for Islam

Sooooo, I take it that after Timothy McVeigh and his buddies blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma, you hated Christians then for their evil acts? Did you clump all Christians in the same pot and call them all evil and the anti-christ like you do with muslims today?

In fact I have learned more from the internet than I could ever wish for. I don't agree with everything in the Bible, it is just like any other book of faith it is riddled with errors. But I took my time and read it, and I took from it the most meaningful passages.

You are a prime example as to why the internet CAN BE bad. And you read the bible and took from it the most meaningful passages? You mean you interpreted it to suit YOUR belief. Just like muslim fundamentalists interpreted the Koran to suit their belief. I come from a predominantly christian family, however not all are christian. Several are also muslim or are married to muslims. Do they agree with the fundamentalists and their interpretation of the Koran? No. They think the acts of people such as Bin Laden and Co are cowardly and evil. Yet Vienna, you have clumped all muslims in the same boat, just like you clumped all catholics and other christians in the same boat in other threads... when it suited your particular argument. But today you come out and say you lean towards Jesus but you can be Atheist at the drop of a hat. Please, get a life. Get off the internet for a while and live life in the REAL world. People like you sadden me. You have no true side.

You obviously do not and perhaps never will understand the principles of Christianity, and I am not ever likely to explain them to the likes of you.

You are not and should never be the one to teach or explain any principles of Christianity to anyone. You hate too much to be able to understand any notion of any religion. You have a God complex by the way you judge others and their beliefs.

All kinds of people are Christians, good and bad people

The same can be said for muslims Vienna. The actions of the few do not represent the whole.

Vienna, your arguments have no basis and frankly they only show how twisted your mind and your personal beliefs really are.


:eek:

Originally posted by Bells
:confused:One would think that the differences between Christianity or Atheism is quite vast. You claim that you do not consider yourself a Christian in the total sense of the word but you tend to lean towards Jesus? Then you say that you are bordering on Atheism? How can someone be an Atheist at the drop of a hat? So you have your 'lets be christian today' hat and your 'lets be atheist today' hat? What you are bordering on Vienna is psychotic insanity.
I wouldn't go as far as calling it psycotic insanity. Yes I used to believe in Jesus Christ and God without any fear of contradiction.

But events happen in ones life when you question your faith, and whether there is a God after all. So when in times of doubt I try not to forget the teachings of Jesus. These are good standards to live by and I try to keep to them (sometimes not very well) when my faith and belief in God escapes me.

Originally posted by Vienna
So what are you saying, that I'm using the Christian faith as an excuse to lead a nation and kill millions of Jews along with all the rest of his slaughters.

Grow up kid!

Excuse me?? That post you quoted wasn't even addressed to you - it was addressed to PS! And it had nothing to do with you - I wrote it in response to the remark PS made about Hitler being a Christian after I told him that I didn't believe Hitler was an atheist. A bit sensitive, aren't we?

Oh, and thanks for the advice, but it doesn't fit. Mind if I return it?

Vienna ... um ... er ..., Seriously, I believe Bush behaves like a ChristianOkay. I ... I ... I ... yeah. I admit that I'm trying to find a polite way to wonder where the hell you come up with that assessment. And I apologize for not finding a better expression.and he is fighting evil and the devil with all his power.I ... uh ... how best to explain why I believe that would be one of the best reasons in the world for him to resign his office and just go away?Perhaps he should stop quoting phrases which he intends to be Christian-like I agree wholeheartedly.He makes mistakes, which is why many people are Christian.I chuckle at some of the ways I could read that sentence, but as those are just drifting thoughts I might concentrate more on the actual point and ... ah. Yes, the next sentence, of course. (Sorry, I must admit that I'm going to need a cigarette while I contemplate again the sum of your post. At any rate ....)All Christians make mistakes during their life, and turn to God for forgiveness and guidanceIt is not exclusively Christianity that makes me so nervous about such ideas. But all people make mistakes, and while on the one hand I'm of the belief that they're still looking inward, anyway, and in that case I question the accreted stumbling blocks they've placed between themselves and the condition of their desire.There is no such thing as a perfect Christian, but they try to be as perfect as they can by following the teachings and examples shown by Jesus.May I please redirect you to the post to which you responded? Admittedly, it's a bit superficial a point, but it's intended more as a thematic assessment of the character of this president's actions.

However, there is some confusion in my perception about an earlier post of yours that I responded to ... oh, hell, it's only one line: Bush is either pretending to be a Christian, or that he knows very little of Christian values.What dimension of your perspective am I utterly missing here?

(I took the word "Seriously" at the beginning of your post to be a direct response to my own use of the word "Seriously" in the question I posed. However I also had a moment in which it seemed to be a "serious" correction of some abstract humor I may have taken incorrectly. While I can see how Bush can behave like a Christian while pretending to be a Christian, I'm having trouble reconciling the idea that "he knows very little of Christian values," with the idea that he behaves like a Christian and is fighting against evil and the devil. And if you would like me to confuse you even more, all of my confusion evaporates if I insert two words into one of your sentences, so that it reads, "I believe Bush believes he behaves . . . ," which of course would be irresponsible of me, but I hope you can see the conundrum I'm seeing.)

Originally posted by tiassa
Vienna
(. While I can see how Bush can behave like a Christian while pretending to be a Christian, I'm having trouble reconciling the idea that "he knows very little of Christian values," with the idea that he behaves like a Christian and is fighting against evil and the devil. And if you would like me to confuse you even more, all of my confusion evaporates if I insert two words into one of your sentences, so that it reads, "I believe Bush believes he behaves . . . ," which of course would be irresponsible of me, but I hope you can see the conundrum I'm seeing.)


Tiassa, some reasons you may want to check out why Vienna and friends doesn't like Mr. Bush or they think that he is not a good christian. It may not come as a surprise to you but you will find it interesting the reasoning behind their special thinking.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,91581,00.html



Some more reasons for Mr Bush for not acting like a good Christian.

http://www.connectionmagazine.org/2003_08/ts_noted_evangelist.htm

Some more reasons why he my friend doesn't like him,

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/430


I hope you see my point.

I'm pretty sure I'm with you on that. But incidentally didn't Robertson have financial interests in Liberia under Taylor? Not that such a fact changes much.

But I'm confused because I perceive a conflict between Vienna's posts that I'm hoping he can reconcile:

• Bush is either pretending to be a Christian, or that he knows very little of Christian values.
• Seriously, I believe Bush behaves like a Christian, and he is fighting evil and the devil with all his power.

There's just too many subtleties that I could be taking wrongly. Such as whether Bush can be a non-Christian (e.g. pretender) yet still fight against the devil, as such.

Would it be out of line to throw in here the idea that Bush may actually be doing what I have always perceived as problematic among too large a number of Christians? "Do as I say, not as I do?"

I mean, I wish to believe that the US isn't about a culture war here, but I'm having a hard time believing it.

There's a difference between knowing Christan values and practicing them. I don't see Bush contradicting the faith by trying not to offend muslims. We are supposed to love our enemies.

Originally posted by tiassa
I hope you can see the conundrum I'm seeing.)
Nope, I use glasses when reading, not a microscope. :)

Originally posted by okinrus
There's a difference between knowing Christan values and practicing them. I don't see Bush contradicting the faith by trying not to offend muslims. We are supposed to love our enemies.
That is very true, but does this mean we are to love the devil. No seriously, the devil is an enemy isn't he?

Do Christian values tell us to the love all enemies or are they selective?

Originally posted by tiassa

But I'm confused because I perceive a conflict between Vienna's posts that I'm hoping he can reconcile:

• Bush is either pretending to be a Christian, or that he knows very little of Christian values.
• Seriously, I believe Bush behaves like a Christian, and he is fighting evil and the devil with all his power.


OK. In short.

First line , I'm taking the piss out of Bush.

Second line, Bush is trying to do what he thinks best, by using his Faith as a tool in war. (My thoughts:- He doesn't do it very well and should shut the F*** Up)

That is very true, but does this mean we are to love the devil. No seriously, the devil is an enemy isn't he? To revisit one of my favorite questions of Christian faith--will the Devil be redeemed?

It's a broader theological question, of course, but hints after the issue similarly.OK. In short.Fair 'nuff.

And then back to the other post:Do Christian values tell us to the love all enemies or are they selective? I'll start the bidding:"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5.38-ff, RSV)There is, however, something in there somewhere about crushing the serpent, but I'm unable to find it at present. Ah ... there's a boast in Romans 16.19-20. But it's not Gospel.

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

A beautiful theory in principle but a sure suicide.

Not practical unless one is a masochist.

Not practical unless one is a masochist.While I agree in general (no need to visit the idealistic potential) ... well, isn't that rather quite beside the point? What is practical to God versus what seems practical to people?

It is an interesting question of faith.

Originally posted by tiassa
While I agree in general (no need to visit the idealistic potential) ... well, isn't that rather quite beside the point? What is practical to God versus what seems practical to people?

It is an interesting question of faith.
It is interesting, and the question has dogged me for many years. It is one of the reasons why my Faith is on the borderline.

I guess my borderline Faith will have to stay with me for a long time, unless someone can either prove for definite that there is a God or not, which is not likely to happen.