Do you guys think it should be illegal to burn the American flag as a sigh of protest?
Personaly I think it should be legal,even though I think its horrible.

You should be free to express yourself in whatever fashion you want as long as it doesn't violate other people's rights. If you feel like burning the flag on your lawn, fine. But if you burn it on the street where other people might get hurt, you will meet Mr. Baseball Bat. If you do it while in some sort of uniform, which represents an office or position, you should not be able to express yourself in any way that the organization does not approve of.

very very true.I have burnt flags before,but it was in a flag retirement ceremony with the Boy Scouts.

Let people burn all the flags they want, I say, it's part of your free speech rights. Just so long as you aren't belonging a particular flag that belongs to someone else, or something silly like that, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with the act itself, it's the statement being made that I can see there being some contest about, and banning the act certainly doesn't destroy the sentiment, it's kind of a ass backwards way of fixing the problem.

i dont see anything wrong with expressing yourself, but have some respect for where that flag came from, and what that flag has been through. take a look at the little things you always took for granted.

americans get all wierd about the flag

they did a social experiment which i watched for socially diverse and in it they sent 4 groups of people (brits, americans, germans and japanise) on holidays and filmed them and stuff but they didnt know about it

they had the 4 countrys flags up all the time and one of the things they did was burn the country that was curently staying theres flag

everyone else was a little shocked but the americans cut sick

when they found out it was an experiment one woman even went so far as to ask for the burnt flag so she could "dispose of it properly"

for christ sake its a piece of COTTON

my parents are old and conservative so any discussion on politics or anything american is not likely to go well. such was our discussion of the flag. my dad is a retired marine and he has this crazy wierd obsession with "respecting" the flag. i'm as embarassed as a redneck that we have one flying outside our house.
my argument is that flag burning is one of the most patriotic things an american can do. missing the point entirely, my old nearly dead parents were dismayed and called me all kinds of names including communist which is the irony of the story. burning the american flag is a celebration of american liberties and not being in a dictatorial/communist regime. it is a crime deserving death in a communist country to speak badly of the government or do something as heinous as burning the flag. therefore, proudly burning your flag is an outright demonstration of the fact that you're allowed to.
i know everytime i spark up a flag i wipe a little tear from my eye :)

is that from the toxic fumes SwedishFish?:p

I have my flags in front of my house and in my room.

"I personally do not believe in burning the flag. It's a personal belief, but I'll tell you something, I think people are overreacting, oh, just a little bit. "Hey buddy, my daddy died for that flag." Well, I bought mine. Sorry. You know they sell them at K-Mart for three bucks, you're in, you're out, brand new flag, no violence was necessary. "Hey buddy, my daddy died in the Korean war for that flag." What a coincidence - my flag was made in Korea!"
-Bill Hicks

ppl have no morals these days. what has the world come to?
just cause it's not illegal doesn't mean you should do it.

a flag is not "just a piece of cotton". it's full of symbolism and history.

just as 'burning the flag' is full of symbolism. if i ever saw someone burn a flag, any flag (except certain hostile nations' flags), i'd introduce them to mr. baseball bat multiple times.

Originally posted by otheadp
a flag is not "just a piece of cotton". it's full of symbolism and history.
Actually, it is just a piece of cotton. Last time I checked my flag it didn't have a history lesson in it... you need another person for that. As for symbolism, what a joke. Your faith in this country should depend on it's actions and people, not on some piece of fabric that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. All this symbolism is good for is cultural brainwashing.

if i ever saw someone burn a flag, any flag (except certain hostile nations' flags), i'd introduce them to mr. baseball bat multiple times.
So burning cotton is now worthy of manslaughter?

Originally posted by otheadp
if i ever saw someone burn a flag, any flag (except certain hostile nations' flags), i'd introduce them to mr. baseball bat multiple times.

So in your opinion free speech is unpatriotic? That's a silly contradiction. Why do you feel that people shouldn't be allowed to disagree with the government, or public policy?

Originally posted by otheadp
ppl have no morals these days. what has the world come to?
just cause it's not illegal doesn't mean you should do it.

a flag is not "just a piece of cotton". it's full of symbolism and history.

just as 'burning the flag' is full of symbolism. if i ever saw someone burn a flag, any flag (except certain hostile nations' flags), i'd introduce them to mr. baseball bat multiple times.

So, are you going to head down to your local V.F.W. hall next time they retire flags? That is how it is done, by burning them.

Oh wait, that's ok? So it isn't really the act of burning the flag you object to, rather burning it in anger.
So really, you think it is ok to beat people for saying the USA sucks.

You ought to have someone read the First Amendment aloud to you sometime.

Actually I dont believe people burn the flag because they think the us sucks,I think they burn it as a sigh of protest to something our goverment has done that they believe is wrong.

As for using it for symbolisim,I think its great and I believe that the people burning it use it as a symbol,otherwise burning it wouldnet mean anything,what im trying to say is,that the Flag does represent our goverment,some people put it up in their yards to show that they believe in something the goverment is doing,others burn it to show that they dont support a petcular action of the goverment.

Originally posted by otheadp
ppl have no morals these days. what has the world come to?
just cause it's not illegal doesn't mean you should do it.

a flag is not "just a piece of cotton". it's full of symbolism and history.

just as 'burning the flag' is full of symbolism. if i ever saw someone burn a flag, any flag (except certain hostile nations' flags), i'd introduce them to mr. baseball bat multiple times.

If the flag I buy at Kmart is so full of symbolism and history why is it being made in Korea? Should be made in the USA ONLY. And what history are we talking about here? The general Patriotic American's version of history or the real truth about what this coun try has DONE and STOOD for?

Slaughtering the Indians? Enslaving the Africans? All the greedy, adultering "Americans" who so eloquently wrote "All men are created equal"? (Except women and Africans and Indians, etc)

That's a load of horse manure. Go read some history books that they don't give you in school and speak to me of American history.

Since I have burned many flags of the wonderful US of A I invite you to come to my house with that bat of yours... I will buy and burn some more in front of you and DARE you to TRY to hit me with the bat.

Beautifull .
:D

Othead

if i ever saw someone burn a flag, any flag (except certain hostile nations' flags), i'd introduce them to mr. baseball bat multiple times.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHA

You'd shit your pampers full you crybaby .

* thanks for remembering us of your intolerant wayd for other ideas than yours .

* thanks for remembering us your bias views and double standards .

Originally posted by otheadp
just as 'burning the flag' is full of symbolism. if i ever saw someone burn a flag, any flag (except certain hostile nations' flags), i'd introduce them to mr. baseball bat multiple times.

Don't you realize how hypocritical and unpatriotic that is?

Why do you think this is a great country?
What makes you a patriot?
What were the ideals that this country was founded on?
What is the point?

Burning a flag is so completely insulting to those that fought for this country that it should be banned. It's disgraceful. And those who burn the flag should expect to be in a hospital. Is it against free speech? No, whatever is said by burning the flag could more easily said by pen.

Burning a flag is so completely insulting to those that fought for this country that it should be banned.

maybe your country should be banned instead

It's disgraceful

maybe your country is disgracefull

And those who burn the flag should expect to be in a hospital.

those who act aggressive upon flag burners should expect bullits

Is it against free speech? No, whatever is said by burning the flag could more easily said by pen.

not everybody can write

Originally posted by okinrus
Burning a flag is so completely insulting to those that fought for this country that it should be banned.

And the people that revolted against England to form the US?
Were they wrong?

The whole point of free speech and freedom of protest in the government system we have (and you are so patriotic about) is not only the right, but the responsibility to speak and act out against the government when you feel it is deserved and necessary.

People did not fight for the flag.
The fought for the ideals of this country.

One of the most important and most precious ideals is freedom of expression.

If people are not allowed to express themselves and their discontent with teh current regime, then all those people that you are praising died in vain.
Helluva way to honor their memory and their efforts!

if i ever saw someone burn a flag, any flag (except certain hostile nations' flags), i'd introduce them to mr. baseball bat multiple times.

Is that your standard response when encountered with someone whose opinions differ from yours?

And the people that revolted against England to form the US?
Were they wrong?

Looking at the evidence, they may have been wrong to revolt and cause all that bloodshed.


The whole point of free speech and freedom of protest in the government system we have (and you are so patriotic about) is not only the right, but the responsibility to speak and act out against the government when you feel it is deserved and necessary.

What exactly does flag burning serve? Nothing, it says nothing. You do not have the freedom of expression but of speech. If anything, it alienates the country.The goverment can ban something that it deeems unsafe. Ciggaret adds, or smoking in public places are banned because smoking is unsafe. Burning the flag publically is unsafe because it could start a fire. It is also likely that vets or others might be so offended that they would act rashly starting fights. Flag burning would cause more damage than second hand smoke.

Originally posted by okinrus
Looking at the evidence, they may have been wrong to revolt and cause all that bloodshed.
But you consider yourself a patriot?
Please explain.

Originally posted by okinrus
What exactly does flag burning serve? Nothing, it says nothing.
That is your opinion.
If I think your posts on the religion forum are pointelss and useless should you be cencored?

Originally posted by okinrus
You do not have the freedom of expression but of speech. If anything, it alienates the country.The goverment can ban something that it deeems unsafe. Ciggaret adds, or smoking in public places are banned because smoking is unsafe. Burning the flag publically is unsafe because it could start a fire.
Yeah, that's reasonable. :rolleyes:
I am sure that us why you are against it.
Why not condone extreme violence for people that burn logs in their fireplaces?
Please, if you can't debate the merits of your arguments on what you truly believe, don't bother with foolish statements trying to make a purposeless point.

Originally posted by okinrus
It is also likely that vets or others might be so offended that they would act rashly starting fights.
The same could be said for freedom of speech, can't it?

Originally posted by okinrus
Looking at the evidence, they may have been wrong to revolt and cause all that bloodshed.


Burning the flag publically is unsafe because it could start a fire.



Burning 'the' flag is illegal, but burning 'a' flag isn't. I bet if you set a French flag alight recently you'd have got cheered on in some redneck quarters. Laws banning flag burning are limiting your freedoms. Oddly, the French have recently passed a similar law!

It's not about safety, it's pure nonsense.

But you consider yourself a patriot?
Please explain.

I don't consider myself a patriot because I have done nothing to deserve that title. The values of the US goverement were formed after the war. You probably remember that George Washington could have become King if he wanted to.


That is your opinion.
If I think your posts on the religion forum are pointelss and useless should you be cencored?

No, there's other reasons for not cencoring me. :) I really do not have the right under free speach to communicate here though. It's a private message board and so they can decide to ban me or not.


The same could be said for freedom of speech, can't it?

Most of the time, if there a rational reason for disliking a war or something, then expressing this in writing does not make people angry towards you.


Burning 'the' flag is illegal, but burning 'a' flag isn't. I bet if you set a French flag alight recently you'd have got cheered on in some redneck quarters. Laws banning flag burning are limiting your freedoms. Oddly, the French have recently passed a similar law!
It's not about safety, it's pure nonsense.

If it's not peaceful protest, you do not have the right.
"1 amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people <i>peaceably</i> to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. " So if something is decided to be unsafe protest, the goverment can ban it.

Anyone who advocates violence because of a difference in idealogy should be shot. :D

Seriously though, wanting to beat someone up because they burn a piece of cloth is deranged.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
not everybody can write

A point which is beautifully illustrated by your own posts.

Mystech : A point which is beautifully illustrated by your own posts.

Thats cheap and stinking full of Anglo-centrism ...... again you .

Originally posted by okinrus
Looking at the evidence, they may have been wrong to revolt and cause all that bloodshed.

Haha I honestly didn't know that we still had loyalists living in the States, what a kick! So you are a patriot who still thinks that the United States should be colonies of Britton, and not a sovereign nation?


Originally posted by okinrus
What exactly does flag burning serve? Nothing, it says nothing.

If this is really how you feel, then why does it upset you? Burning the flag sends a clear statement that you are against current actions or policies by the government. It's very much a part of free speech, and outlawing certain political view points is not the way our government works. Maybe that sort of thing used to go over well in Iraq, but aspiring to be more like Saddam's regime is not something that I feel is right for America.


Originally posted by okinrus
You do not have the freedom of expression but of speech.

Thank you for this observation, Capitan semantics. Do you really think that the idea the founding fathers had in mind is that you have the right to SAY anything, but all other forms of expression are completely subject to regulation? The Idea is completely absurd.

Originally posted by okinrus
The goverment can ban something that it deeems unsafe. Ciggaret adds, or smoking in public places are banned because smoking is unsafe. Burning the flag publically is unsafe because it could start a fire. It is also likely that vets or others might be so offended that they would act rashly starting fights. Flag burning would cause more damage than second hand smoke.

Haha, well ok then, fire chief. It's a public safety hazard you say? That's the grounds that you choose to base your argument on? Why are you wasting your time with this ridiculous straw man argument? We all know the issues is that you are against the message that burning the flag sends, NOT the fact that it is a safety hazard. Also, how many injuries or large scale fires have flag burnings caused in the past? Not such a danger is it? Thanks for throwing this argument in I had a good laugh while reading it. Do try to stay on track, and argue the points that you actually believe in, not completely absurd straw man arguments.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Mystech : A point which is beautifully illustrated by your own posts.

Thats cheap and stinking full of Anglo-centrism ...... again you .

Honestly, now back up this claim. What do you mean by Anglo-centrism? How have my posts shown any such bias? As far as I know I havn't even been posting a damn thing about race lately.

Stop the slander!

hehe, isnt it obvious mystech? Its anglo-centric because you are a white person, never mind that you arnt of anglo-saxon decent or any of that, you are white and hence every word you utter oppresses some poor innocent islamic person somewhere whos modest and simple goal is to blow up the west... now is that so wrong?

Haha I honestly didn't know that we still had loyalists living in the States, what a kick! So you are a patriot who still thinks that the United States should be colonies of Britton, and not a sovereign nation?

No, but I don't think that revolt is always the right answer. Canada also got their independance peacefully. Many reasons such as exorbiant taxes do not work. Also I did not say that I'm a patriot because that implies that I served or actually did something for the US.


Thank you for this observation, Capitan semantics. Do you really think that the idea the founding fathers had in mind is that you have the right to SAY anything, but all other forms of expression are completely subject to regulation? The Idea is completely absurd.

There are limits to your free speech anyways. A common example is that it is unlawful to yell "fire" in a movie theater. So unless if you can make the claim that burning the flag is absolutly necessary way to spread a political ideology, then the goverment can ban it, while still being constitutional.


Haha, well ok then, fire chief. It's a public safety hazard you say? That's the grounds that you choose to base your argument on?

It's obvious that it will cause fist fights, assualts etc. People who have served their country, love their flag almost as much as the country. So because these people have died and served for our country, I think that we owe them something.

Originally posted by okinrus
No, but I don't think that revolt is always the right answer. Canada also got their independance peacefully. Many reasons such as exorbiant taxes do not work. Also I did not say that I'm a patriot because that implies that I served or actually did something for the US.

Yet, at the same time the british can shut down the Canadian government (Or Australian government, which is in a simmilar situation) if they so choose, It's a vestigal power that is unlikely to ever be used, but I find it to be a much better situation if our own nation is not subserviant to some little island in Europe.


Originally posted by okinrus
There are limits to your free speech anyways. A common example is that it is unlawful to yell "fire" in a movie theater. So unless if you can make the claim that burning the flag is absolutly necessary way to spread a political ideology, then the goverment can ban it, while still being constitutional.

No, you've got it all backwards. Our rights are not forfeit until proven necessary, we are instead entitled to them until they are proven to be harmful. We don't have to ask permission to take an action which harms no one.


Originally posted by okinrus
It's obvious that it will cause fist fights, assualts etc. People who have served their country, love their flag almost as much as the country. So because these people have died and served for our country, I think that we owe them something.

Well it's not obvious that this is going to cause fights or assaults, and even if that were the case then fistfights and assaults should be outlawed not flag burning. Are you really prepared to take the stance that holding a very strong view, and expressing that view, even if other people don't like it and will try to hurt you for it should be illegal? Are you in favor of calling in the thought police?

Originally posted by okinrus

There are limits to your free speech anyways. A common example is that it is unlawful to yell "fire" in a movie theater. So unless if you can make the claim that burning the flag is absolutly necessary way to spread a political ideology, then the goverment can ban it, while still being constitutional.

The U.S. Supreme Court disagrees, which is why any effort to pass such a law needs a constitutional amendment first.

You would protect the symbol of freedom by diminishing the freedom it represents?

Originally posted by okinrus
Burning a flag is so completely insulting to those that fought for this country that it should be banned. It's disgraceful.

So you think it's perfectly reasonable to put stock in a freakin symbol? It's a goddamn LOGO man. WTF is wrong with you?
Originally posted by okinrus

And those who burn the flag should expect to be in a hospital.

Especially if people adopt the shallow bullshit you're promoting.
Originally posted by okinrus

Is it against free speech? No, whatever is said by burning the flag could more easily said by pen.

Honestly, how are you hurt by flag burning? It is YOUR problem if you get offended by other people doing whatever stupid shit unless they're forcing it on you.

So you think it's perfectly reasonable to put stock in a freakin symbol? It's a goddamn LOGO man. WTF is wrong with you?

No, not at all. I respect the flag, but I also know that others who have fought in wars and seen their buddies die should not be disrespected in this way. The point of my argument is that it does not hurt me, but those who have fought in our wars.

Burning a flag is not peaceful protest. Doesn't the goverment get to decide what is peaceful or not?


The U.S. Supreme Court disagrees, which is why any effort to pass such a law needs a constitutional amendment first.

You would protect the symbol of freedom by diminishing the freedom it represents?

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you have the right to slander someone? Or to make verbal threats?

What I mean is that in Texas Vs Johnson, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that burning the American Flag is constitutionally protected speech.
Read about it here. (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/texasvjohnson.html)

To make a law banning burning the flag is unconstitutional. The only way around this is with a constitutional amendment, which is not easily done.

Besides, how ridiculous could this get. Would burning a paper plate with an image of the flag on it be unlawful?
And as I said before, no one complains when it is done to retire flags. Only when it is done in anger.
I'm sure most of the people who are in favor of a constitutional amendment to ban flag burning don't care much for the First Amendment in general.

Originally posted by Repo Man
I'm sure most of the people who are in favor of a constitutional mendment to ban flag burning don't care much for the First Amendment in general.

I would be willing to bet that not only DO they care about teh first ammendment, but they vehemently defend peoples' rights to exersize it.

When it benefits them, that is.

if burning the flag was banned, i'd have no more reason to salute it

if no symbol for america was ever created, those men and women who died would still have existed. they don't go away by the burning of the flag. they belong in memory, which has nothing to do with an identification pattern.

I got to sum it up here... your rights end at the point you violate other's rights. Some misinterpret the freedom of speech. One cannot force people to pay attention to "you" unless the audience chooses to listen. Like, I should not be alowd to burn a flag in a crowded park without notification that I will be doing so and the intended audience has been informed they may leave.

sum it up? although you've done a nice job of wrapping this entire issue up into a nice logistical bundle that, but in truth answers only partially the issue, ethical problems unfortunately cannot be packaged up so easily. You see, burning a flag, anytime, anywhere, where it may be seen, may offend some people, and for that reason it should be just as restricted indecent exposure, loud noise etc. No matter how YOU look at the issue of burning a flag, it WILL offend, disgust, and disrespect a lot of people in this country, and for that it is childish, immature, and as crude a demonstration as anything. To you it may be a piece of cotton, to many it is far more dear, and to burn that symbolism which they see in it, primarily to draw attention to you, is pathetic. :bugeye:

this is a democratic country not a perfect one, the laws reflect what the majority of the population desires. he who thinks flag burning is right, possibly a minority, can be defeated just that easily, in a vote. majority rules, not perfect ethics and most people will find offense and disrespect in the burning of a national symbol

Did you read my post?

A constitutional amendment has to be ratified by a 2/3 majority of the states before it can become law.
The founding fathers made amending the constitution difficult for a reason.

Popular speech doesn't need to be defended, only unpopular speech.

"You have no right to not be offended." -Nadine Strossen

we aren't talking about amending the constitution here my friend. we aren't changing freedom of speech. you Can go out into a crowded public area and start streaking, but you Will be arrested. burning a flag is essentially no different from indecent exposure.

Originally posted by 4DHyperCubix
I got to sum it up here... your rights end at the point you violate other's rights.

True. If I burn the flag in your presence how have I violated your rights? Your rights do not extend to my activities right? If you allow yourself to be emotionally attached to a can of coke I can't stop you, but you have no right to stop me if I crush one because I feel like it. It does you NO harm. You do YOURSELF harm if you are offended.
Originally posted by 4DHyperCubix
Some misinterpret the freedom of speech. One cannot force people to pay attention to "you" unless the audience chooses to listen.

Okay we agree?
Originally posted by 4DHyperCubix

Like, I should not be alowd to burn a flag in a crowded park without notification that I will be doing so and the intended audience has been informed they may leave.

Okay that's confusing because now you seem to be saying the opposite thing. We don't agree? Which is it damnit?

Originally posted by 4DHyperCubix
I One cannot force people to pay attention to "you" unless the audience chooses to listen. Like, I should not be alowd to burn a flag in a crowded park without notification that I will be doing so and the intended audience has been informed they may leave.

uh... did i miss something here? Did the issue turn into a debate about flag burners kidnaping people, restraining them, and forcing them to watch the flag being burned?

Originally posted by okinrus
People who have served their country, love their flag almost as much as the country. So because these people have died and served for our country, I think that we owe them something.

I Love it when people who have never served in the military happen to know exactly how people who have beenn in the military think and feel (Hint, they are all concervatives who love jesus, the flag, and hate liberals and other such hippies)

Well this is from people I know who have served in the Military such as my Grandfather etc. Obviously this does not speak for all veterans and some actually don't want the ban. And no, I'm not conservative or liberal.

Originally posted by okinrus
Well this is from people I know who have served in the Military such as my Grandfather etc. Obviously this does not speak for all veterans and some actually don't want the ban. And no, I'm not conservative or liberal.

I served in the Military.
I never would have if flag burning was banned.

Originally posted by Slipz
You see, burning a flag, anytime, anywhere, where it may be seen, may offend some people, and for that reason it should be just as restricted indecent exposure, loud noise etc. No matter how YOU look at the issue of burning a flag, it WILL offend, disgust, and disrespect a lot of people in this country, and for that it is childish, immature, and as crude a demonstration as anything.

Ohhh I see.
So, the first ammendment only applies if you don't offend anyone?
Makes sense now! :rolleyes:

The WHOLE point of protecting frredom of speech is to allow you to say things that people don't want to hear.
If you never said anything that offended anyone, there would be no purpose in protecting your right to say it.
Before you say that burning a flag is not covered by the first ammendment, let me remind you of Repo Man's Link (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/texasvjohnson.html).
Did you bother reading it?
It says thet the US Supreme Court says you are wrong.

Originally posted by okinrus
Well this is from people I know who have served in the Military such as my Grandfather etc.

So do you think being in the military has anything to do with it? I did four years an two wars (a military action and a war I guess). I can't stand it when people are so shallow as to think that flag burning should even be an issue. This country is SUPPOSED to be about freedom. Your position on this issue maintains only the illusion thereof. (GK: while the illusion is necessary, the real thing is BETTER if it can be maintained)

Wait, i don't know if i'm missing something entirely, but if we're talking in such a logical manner, and on the subject of freedom of speech once again, let's look at exactly what it seems, in writing, to cover... hmmmm speech? to my knowledge burning a flag does involve the use of vocal chords and therefore is probably stretching the limits of that amendment. Should displaying one's genitalia in public be covered? I hate to keep going back to that, but the only reason it is illegal is BECAUSE IT OFFENDS PEOPLE. Now i'm sure this will spark a debate of it's own, but that's been going on since the constitution was designed.

i wonder what George Washington would have said if he were alive today regarding the flag or genetalia exposure.....

Originally posted by otheadp
i wonder what George Washington would have said if he were alive today regarding the flag or genetalia exposure.....

Im sure he would be in favor of that second item. Its a little known fact that the 2nd amendment was origonaly about pornography, so many of our founding fathers were amature pornographers, it wasnt until the mid 40's that it was changed to read "The right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed"

Note:Just a little joke because i thought pondering what Washington would think of public exposure is a very silly thing to do

The WHOLE point of protecting frredom of speech is to allow you to say things that people don't want to hear.

Umm but if all you're doing is disrespecting a nation and people, offending many then whats the point of doing it in the first place, if you want people to hear what you have to say write an article about it and post it / submit it to a magazine or something - running around being an immature nusiance offending and disrespecting people is not the same as having the right to voice your opinion on an matter.

Originally posted by duke
Umm but if all you're doing is disrespecting a nation and people, offending many then whats the point of doing it in the first place

That is juvenile. What the *** are you talking about? If I offend you it's my fault? TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR REACTION TO WHATEVER. If I'm *** off about the government and I feel like burning a flag, or I need some warmth and a flag is all I have to burn, or if I'm out of toilet paper and a flag is the only thing I have to wipe my ass with, whether or not your little *** (the proverbial you) is offended is NOT MY CONCERN. ***YOU (the proverbial you) if you're so SHALLOW as to take offense at my ass wiping or flag burning. It is exactly your (you, not the proverbial you) assenine/juvenile/pussy attitude that is the fucking problem with this country. Everyone's *** hurts because of what everyone else is doing. You (back to the proverbial you for the rest of the post) should see a doctor if your *** hurts, don't blame it on every one else. Maybe you shouldn't have let the football team *** it. Take responsibility. If you are offended at what I do, but I haven't phsyically or economically messed you up, then it's YOUR problem. Argh. I can't stand this bullshit of everyone pointing at everyone else as the root of all their *** problems. YOU are the root of your problems you *** ***. Get your shit together.

Mod edit: keep it clean

maybe that guy a few posts ago was actualy talking about taking a proverbial baseball bat to the proverbial head of a proverbial flag burner :P

LOL

:( Such nasty language... if you have no concern for how others feel about your actions then go ahead, wipe your ass with a flag, since you cant afford toilet paper :p . Obviosly you have no care as to what others think of your actions, so go ahead, burn the flag in a public park and see what people think of you. I'm curious though, what good comes from burning the flag in a public place? What does one get from it, besides attention.

Yes, technically you may be able to burn the flag, and i don't see a real good reason to make it illegal. But what point is there to it, are you demonstrating something, your rashness? Hotheadedness? Dislike for the country? As well as the right to burn the flag, you have the right to become a citizen of another country, so if you hate this country so much as to burn the flag, why not go marry into another country.



(of course this is all the proverbial you)

Originally posted by duke
[B As well as the right to burn the flag, you have the right to become a citizen of another country, so if you hate this country so much as to burn the flag, why not go marry into another country. [/B]

That's exactly right, I'm glad you said this. Duke's statement is clearly correct because this nation was in fact not founded on the idea that the governed have the right to show disaproval for the government, it was also founded on the idea that individual citizens do not have either the right or the power to enact political change, nor do they have the right to express their political views. For that reason, if you feel like burning the flag, you should just get the hell out of dodge. [/sarcasm]

Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sence, doesn't it?

Hmm I guess I agree that's it's against the constitution to have a nation wide ban burning the flag. However they should allow local goverment to enforce something if it distrupts the peace. Often times a protests having large groups of people has to get permision because otherwise chaos occurs.

I know I will probably be critized for this, but I feel that burning the flag should definitely be illegal.

When someone burns the flag, they are burning what that flag stands for. Everything.

As my mum (an immigrant) once said, "If someone is THAT unhappy with their country, then they can get the hell out. We don't need those type of people here".

NO ONE has total freedom of speech. Total freedom of speech is wishful thinking. I can't call a person every name under the sun. I can't be sexually demeaning comments to a woman. I can't make comments which lower someone's reputation.

Burning the flag should NOT be protected by freedom of speech, just like sexual insults are not protected by freedom of speech. It is a barbaric and disgusting act. I have nothing against them protesting against a government, but when you burn the flag, you burn EVERYTHING.

It is funny, really. When protestors burn the flag, they are burning everything it stands for. They are actually BURNING their right to free speech, because that is what our democratic country stands for. Pretty simple really. Burn our values, don't expect our protection. I don't have time for these pathetic and insolent people.

Originally posted by wesmorris
Okay that's confusing because now you seem to be saying the opposite thing. We don't agree? Which is it damnit?

Sorry... I forget what I was trying to say, but we are in agreement... I failed to create a good example. Sorry :bugeye:

people are allowed to say and show they are dissatisfied with their country. i'm sick and tired of unpolitical people saying if you don't like it to get out. fuck no. i was born here, this is my home. where else am i going to go? i'm not going to turn tail and run. instead i'm going to get active and try whatever i can to enact change, to make my homeland better so that i'm no longer dissatisfied with it. people who don't vote, who don't care, who don't have any opinions, who sit with thumb up ass letting other people run the country can get out. i'm out there playing my part in democracy to make this a better place to live. that is what the flag means. but there are people in office who foster anything but the ideal country the flag is supposed to embody. when that happens (which is most of the time) it becomes necessary to make a statement. purging the flag is saying this country no longer stands for what the flag stands for. this is a country built on rebels who were not satisfied with their government. it was created to be run *by* the people. if you're ok with the current state of corruption then you don't deserve the constitution.

Originally posted by mountainhare
As my mum (an immigrant) once said, "If someone is THAT unhappy with their country, then they can get the hell out. We don't need those type of people here".

Your mom's attitude is seriously fucked.
Regardless of where she was born.
Those are EXACTLY the type of people we do need here.

People that will fight against injustices and raise awareness about issues to inform and inspire people to force their governemt to change its policies.

Should Martin Luther King Jr. have left the country rather than fought tooth and nail at the cost of his own life for racial equality?

Tell you mom that she can sit back, take it up the ass from the government and say nothing if she wishes, and you know what will happen? Nothing.

If she tries to call herself patriotic, however, I will call her a damned hypocrite.

Rights do not come without responsibilites.
No, you shouldn't be allowed to yell "Fire" in a crowded building.
No, the first ammendment was not designed to allow you to arbitrarilt toss racial slurs and derogatory personal comments or incite riots needlessly.

It was put into place to give the people the right to express their thought without fear of recourse from the governemt.
It comes attached with the responsibilty to use it to effect change in the government.
It puts the power of the governmet in the hands of the people.

I am not going to be a quiet subservient citizen.
This goverment was designed to be MY bitch, not the other way around.

What exactly is it that makes this country so great?

It is the fact that the government is designed to serve the people, not the other way around.

high five dude, high five

For the people, by the people... dude.

Originally posted by one_raven
What exactly is it that makes this country so great?


I think generally, it's the team that you're on. They're number one you know. Honestly I'm not always proud of the actions of my team-mates, but I'm glad to be on the winning team (it beats living in uh.. some other places that it beats living in) and overall I think it's founded on decent ideas and stuff. Oh and like, my whole family is from there and there are other cool people and also there are cool places and neat stuff and further, I think of it as home.
Originally posted by one_raven

It is the fact that the government is designed to serve the people, not the other way around.

A wise dude told me once: "it is the nature of a bueracracy to make itself stronger". I think he was right on it.

Tell you mom that she can sit back, take it up the ass from the government and say nothing if she wishes, and you know what will happen? Nothing.

*sighs*
I didn't mean it like that. I have nothing against people fighting injustices. But burning the flag is like bombing Iraq to catch a murder.

When someone burns the flag, they are burning EVERYTHING. I keep saying this. They are burning everything the country stands for. Democracy, free speech, etc. Now, I admit, our country isn't perfect. It is far from perfect. But you can make a living if you work hard enough. You do have the right to critize the government.

I have nothing against people protesting. If they want to protest, so be it. But as I keep repeating, you burn the flag, you burn the entire ideal. You are protesting against EVERYTHING. You are burning your country, when you should really be burning an idea thought up by a few meddlesome and moronic politicians.


It comes attached with the responsibilty to use it to effect change in the government.

How does burning the flag change the government? Maybe the government, like me, views flag burners as a bunch of dumb pathetic assholes who can't even express themselves without resorting to burning something.

Originally posted by mountainhare
How does burning the flag change the government? Maybe the government, like me, views flag burners as a bunch of dumb pathetic assholes who can't even express themselves without resorting to burning something.

Fine.
You, personally don't think it is effective, I can easily accept that.
I even agree with it to some degree.
(I have never burned a flag myself)

However, effective or not, why should it be illegal?

Should it also be illegal for me to create a peice of artwork that consists of a burning flag or in some other way "disrespecting" the flag?
What about writing a song or poem about it?

You honestly can't see how absurd, and even dangerous to personal freedom of expression this attitude is?

Originally posted by one_raven
I am not going to be a quiet subservient citizen.
This goverment was designed to be MY bitch, not the other way around.

Raven, these lines should be added into the pledge of allegiance.

Originally posted by Mystech
Raven, these lines should be added into the pledge of allegiance.

Maybe it would be a better substitute than addition?

I think we shoudl write a new pledge...

I pledge alleigance to the spirit of the constitution of the United States of America.
I pledge to weild my rights with the appropriate responsibilities and be the watchdog of those I elect into office.
I accept the work that comes along with ensuring those rights for myself and others.
I accept accountability for my personal actions and the effect those actions have on others.

How's that for a start?
Want to add to it?

that pledge is a little over the top raven, should we change our Motto to "America, watch your back or we'll get you sucka."

No.
We should change it to:

"Welcome to America. You work for us, and we will work for you."

Originally posted by SpyMoose
that pledge is a little over the top raven, should we change our Motto to "America, watch your back or we'll get you sucka."

What about that that pledge is over the top?
What is wrong with the notion of accepting personal responsibiltiy and accountability for your actions?
Who should be responsible?

I don't understand how you got that motto from what I said.
What are you alluding to?
Are you implying that what I said is a form of vigilanteism or something?
I don't get it.

Just because you have made an idol from a piece of cloth and call it the flag does not mean that the flag has any special legal / religious protection. I served six years in the active duty army and an additional two years in the National Guard to prevent any one from restricting my freedoms. I think flag burning is a stupid form of protest but not an illegal one. My sister served four years and would probably introduce a flag burner to Mr. Bat. We have had some interesting discussions on this topic including the fact she worships an idol constructed of cloth.

everytime i read this i wonder what happened to the all mighty right of free expression?

just cause you dont agree doesnt mean you can beat someones head in

And why does the fact that you were in the armed forces make your opinion more meaningfull, i would more respect the opinion of someone who spent there lives helping the poor or needy rather than someone who is all mighty cause they pick up a gun and kill people with it

just cause you dont agree doesnt mean you can beat someones head in

Yes, it does. You can burn the flag as an expression, and someone can kick your as for the same reason—or throw a brick through your window.

And why does the fact that you were in the armed forces make your opinion more meaningfull

That person has sworn allegiance to that flag and thinks of it as blasphemy to burn it. Someone in military service views that flag differently then you.

Actually no it doesnt

Free expression ends where it hurts someone else

and who cares if it "means more to them"

just because a bible means more to christans doesnt mean i cant burn THAT

Yes, it does. You can burn the flag as an expression, and someone can kick your as for the same reason—or throw a brick through your window.



That person has sworn allegiance to that flag and thinks of it as blasphemy to burn it. Someone in military service views that flag differently then you.

Yes and the person kicking the butt should go to jail while the flag burner did not break any laws andgoes home to nurse the wounds and press charges.

You are not sworn in to the flag, you are sworn to the service of the country. Is the flag giving military orders too? So all this time we've been fighting wars for a piece of cloth? Sure dude, get yer facts right. Pledging allegience to the flag is a metaphor referring to the country and ideals it stands... not the piece of fabric it is made out of.

Give me a break people. If the damn flag is so important why the hell are chinese and taiwanese making them for us? Only thing flags stand for in this country is profit.... how many flags can be sold. Nothing more.

Just for the wonderful irony of it, I’d like to see a pro-America rally where the participants burn flag burners in effigy. It would be shocking at first, then confusing, and then probably just sort of funny.

Is it wrong to burn those bitish flag boxes that Austin Powers wears?

actually come to think of it isnt WEARING British flag boxes disrespecting the flag?

Yes, many moons ago it would have been considered to be disrespectful to wear a shirt or pants with the emblem of the United States flag. But, as they soon found out, people would buy them and corporations could make loads of $$$ off them... so they changed their minds.

Another thing that would not have been allowed was people displaying damaged flags... like people driving around with those flags in the windows of their cars all tattered and torn... a BIG no-no.

actually come to think of it isnt WEARING British flag boxes disrespecting the flag?

I've got a pair of American Flag boxers, and lord knows I fart in 'em now and again.

Should see if you can get american flag toilet paper

REALLY "disrespect" the flag

Should see if you can get american flag toilet paper
ROFL:D
I bet that would sell well, at least outside the US:)

wow, can't believe nobody posted this piece on the thread yet:

The Soldier

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.

By Charles M. Province

Additionally, the whole symbolism that many of you here deny is pretty obviously pointed out in the pledge of alliegance.

I pledge alliegance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic FOR WHICH IT STANDS, one Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I'm not saying it's illegal, I'm just saying it's in bad taste, because of the soldiers who served under the flag. Kind of like burning the cross, not illegal (or is it?), but definately in bad taste.

Should see if you can get american flag toilet paper

REALLY "disrespect" the flag

Oh there are enough politicians out there already wiping their asses with the flag, I don't think that I need to get involved in any of that myself.

It is the soldier, not the

Society is based on the principal that if we don't like what you're doing, we can send a man with a gun to shoot you dead. So please, do remember to have some respect for those men with guns, and don't you dare tick them off by insulting their fascist nation-worship.

Has anyone ever burned the flag of another country inside their land?

mystech,

have you ever given a flag to a widow? to some it is everything. i don't really get it myself. but when you fold a flag from a coffin, and than hand it to the widow, some of them value that tremendously. for people like those that it means so much to i would never burn the flag.

Has anyone ever burned the flag of another country inside their land?
Palestinians burn the Israeli flag all the time on the news. Though they don't really see themselves as part of that nation, they technically and legally are. I imagine such events wouldn't get a lot of press in the US because who cares, but it seems almost foolishly silly to assume it doesn’t go on. Are you suggesting that anywhere else in the world they would be shot, and hence we shouldn’t do it in America because people who do it aught to be shot? I’m sure that is an invalid assertion. Come to think of it I think I have seen video of it being done in the Soviet Union, Britain and China.

Happens all the time here

EVERY flag too

US. brittish, Australian, Indoneasian

depends who they are protesting about

Happens all the time here

EVERY flag too

US. brittish, Australian, Indoneasian

depends who they are protesting about

And there's a good reason for that, and it's got a lot to do with cameras and people's attention span.

Burning a flag is a simple clear visual statement which can be presented in just a fraction of a second, protesters don't need to even have some media outlet let them record a sound bite.

still waiting for a good rebuttal, i'm sure you guys can come up with a good argument against what i presented.... still waiting... or am i just going to be ignored?

It would be better just to hang the flag upside-down. As a political statement, it lasts longer.

an upside down flag means SOS

If one hates his/her country so much, why not just leave and live somewhere else and at least have the common courtesy to leave the flag alone? Why keep living in the country that he/she hates so much and therefore be a hypocrite?

So what you mean is that rather than bitch for 8 years of Clintonian rule, the republican party should have set sail for the Dominican Republic or something? Folks don't stage big roudy protests just because they "hate their country so much" they want to change their country, smartass.

ahhh yes, nobody is gonna pick on the widow are they?

So what you mean is that rather than bitch for 8 years of Clintonian rule, the republican party should have set sail for the Dominican Republic or something? Folks don't stage big roudy protests just because they "hate their country so much" they want to change their country, smartass.
What I meant was if the flag burners hate their country so much that they want to burn the flag then these flag burners should be the ones moving to some place like China...

It looks like to me so far that the democrats attacked Bush more in one year than Clinton being attacked for 8 eight years...

If anyone just want to change the country, is burning the flag the most appropriate action to demand a change?

Did the republican party ever burn the flag protesting Clinton or any other purpose? I though flag burners are democrats or at least the majority of flag burners belong to the democrat party...smartmouth!

What I meant was if the flag burners hate their country so much that they want to burn the flag then these flag burners should be the ones moving to some place like China...


It is suddenly not allowed to protest anymore in the land of the free?

of corse not

Have you ever noticed that the ones shouting they are free are also the ones restricted the most, who breach the same human rights the are screaming they have most?


you know what they say about empty vessals

It is suddenly not allowed to protest anymore in the land of the free?
How can a land be called "the land of free" if protest is not allowed? Of course it is allowed but if burning the flag is the way to protest, then I would like to ask them to go to China. Note that I was only asking (unless I do not have this right) and not forcing anyone.

Anyway, buring the flag of a country inside the land of that country obviously means that the burner hates the land that he is standing on. Not leaving makes this flag burner a hypocrite.

well, nobody addressed my point, i find it valid, but if i'm gonna be ignored, i'm taking my toys and going home :o

an upside down flag means SOS
exactly.

well, nobody addressed my point, i find it valid, but if i'm gonna be ignored, i'm taking my toys and going home :o
Was your point the one about the widows? Should we halt any sort of criticism of the government because it may offend others who’s family members fought and died in the military? Is the government infinitely beyond reproach because at one point these people served it? When did it acquire these mystical properties? In my home is a small shrine to my grandfather. It contains the American flag given to us upon his death, a picture of him in his uniform, and a model of the P-38 aircraft that he flew in WWII. Does my sentiment that I don't like the nation he fought for being perverted in a senseless war in the middle east count for anything?

The true problem is a difference of language. Conservatives are overly superstitious. When a wild eyed liberal protester burns a flag, he is saying "America, you are screwing up big-time" of course a conservative is not capable of extracting a rational message from such a wild action, all he sees is someone saying "I hate America" or once the spin doctors have gone to work on it "I hate American troops and apple pie, and baseball, and capitalism and all things Christian and good and wholesome!"

Personally, I think the upside-down flag is much more appropriate, but I also don't think that a method of protesting should be banned just because it provokes raction and gets attention. That is what a good protest is meant to do, even if that particular method is just asking for miscommunication.

As a conservative I take offense at the generalizations that keep getting tossed my way without my having earned them. I support the rights of any one who wants to safely burn the flag to burn the flag. I oppose in general most forms of censorship. I believe that the public airwaves should be censored pretty much to the same standard that the public areas are no more no less.

How can a land be called "the land of free" if protest is not allowed? Of course it is allowed but if burning the flag is the way to protest, then I would like to ask them to go to China. Note that I was only asking (unless I do not have this right) and not forcing anyone.

Anyway, buring the flag of a country inside the land of that country obviously means that the burner hates the land that he is standing on. Not leaving makes this flag burner a hypocrite.


You have to love the country you live in? Is that written somewhere in the constitution?

Anyway, buring the flag of a country inside the land of that country obviously means that the burner hates the land that he is standing on. Not leaving makes this flag burner a hypocrite.

The opposite I think. Flag burning is often the way a protester says, “Wake up fellow citizens. This country can do better.” It’s patriotic like SwedishFish said.

Flag burning. What's all the fuss? Of course you should be able to burn a flag. Does it mean you "hate" your country? Possibly, but I think it is far more likely that you are trying to improve your country, not defile it.

I also think that we are discussing two tiny, but noisy minorities here. The flag-burners, and those who wield their baseball bats agin em, represent the extreme spectrum of thought on this topic.

i don't think that people against flag burning (not necessarily baseball bat wielders) make up a minority.

well, what about burning a cross? i'm sure there'd be some people that would be offended by the symbolism that implies. how is that not in bad taste? flag burning comes close to that i think.

ahh yes

People can be "offened" all they want

but they dont try to make cross burning illegal do they?

Why can't some people understand that when you burn the flag, you don't hate America. It's a message. You disapprove of whats going on in America. It's like saying "this is NOT what America stands for". It's protest, why is it an issue? Of course many people will be "offended". So what? Should we all cowar back and apologize because someone was too close-minded to see another side of view? I don't think anything has ever offended me, or at least, offended me to the point of wanting it banned or anything. People have different opinions, and this opinion shouldn't be illegal since our Constitution supports that arguement. What if burning a...I don't know...rubber duckie offended someone because a rubber duckie was symbolic of peace for them? Should I stop burning my rubber duckie right away since someone didn't like it? Should I give in to their view points that way? If you don't want to see a flag burned, then simply don't watch and go about your day.

There's a rule in the US that you can't deface the currency. Technically all those "I Grew Hemp" stamps on $1 bills are illegal. Or maybe not. But I think only the one-cent piece is exempt from that on the grounds that they're necessary but vestigial. The government and banks hate them, so there's a rule about what value of currency you can't deface. I think at present the penny is the only one you can.

And so if you wandered through hippie markets in the 1990s, you may have seen ugly black bracelets made of a synthetic leather crimped with various clasps, but decorated with a single penny with a design (e.g. valentine heart, shamrock, &c) punched out of the middle. Yeah, people paid for cheap bracelets made from ruined pennies.

And, of course, you can put fifty-one cents into a machine and get your penny back mangled and stamped with a new design. Maybe it's $1.01 now.

But heaven help you if you deface something American for a reason that doesn't have to do with money. One television project I'm trying to get into coherent enough notes to sell will call for various burnings on the air over its five-year mission: money, Bibles, police-in-effigy, six-million Jews. You know, the usual. I figure a flag or two have got to go in there somewhere. It all depends on why you do something. Burning six-million Jews for art is a far, far better thing than burning them for property seizure and general paranoia.

I mean ....

Er ....

Disclaimer: If I need to tell you which part of this post is a joke, don't ask. Just go home, pretend you're smart, and have another drink.

Do you guys think it should be illegal to burn the American flag as a sigh of protest?
Personaly I think it should be legal,even though I think its horrible.
Well, let's put it this way..

I rather enjyoed watching one idiot set himself on fire while trying to burn the flag, but that is poetic justice. Hearing someone has been arrested for peaceful protest bothers me too.

I am an American, A free man, and that freedom requires me to be tolerant of every mans rights to peacefully protest anything he/she wants.

..if the arse sets himself ablaze doing it, well that's just evening news entertainment then..

-Mark

i don't think that people against flag burning (not necessarily baseball bat wielders) make up a minority.

well, what about burning a cross? i'm sure there'd be some people that would be offended by the symbolism that implies. how is that not in bad taste? flag burning comes close to that i think.

Just so long as they aren't burning a cross with a flag draped on it.

That's just wrong... :D

How about I nail Bush to a cross, drape a flag over it and set it all on fire, I think that might be offending someone...

But common, a cross is just two pieces of wood, what about burning it, is it any different than burning a piece of cloth? All those materialists... :rolleyes:

How about I nail Bush to a cross, drape a flag over it and set it all on fire, I think that might be offending someone...

But common, a cross is just two pieces of wood, what about burning it, is it any different than burning a piece of cloth? All those materialists... :rolleyes:

Because when you burn a cross you are not just burning two pieces of wood, you are expressing an act of intellectual violence against the symbol of something you are unhappy with. Any act of violence whether intellectual or physical against any belief system's symbols inspires feelings of anger and thirst for vengeance.

Because when you burn a cross you are not just burning two pieces of wood, you are expressing an act of intellectual violence against the symbol of something you are unhappy with. Any act of violence whether intellectual or physical against any belief system's symbols inspires feelings of anger and thirst for vengeance.

In case of the cross it should be ok, since christians are supposed to turn the other cheek and not feel inspired to anger or thirst of vengeance.

I've only seen people burning a flag twice. Once on the episode of The Simpsons when Homer accidentally burnt Lisa's fiance's flag and on the news.
Have we any flag burners present? Please explain why people burn flags in their own country..this thought is beyond my small mind.

I don't understand how burning a flag can offend anyone. Maybe crashing a couple of planes and killing people, but burning a flag??? Like someone previously said, as long as no-one else is hurt...

Technically you have to burn a flag when it touches the ground.

Hence if you are planning to burn the flag, just let it touch the ground a bit, and nobody can complain about burning it.

Ironically many patriotic people probably have a flag that has touched the ground at one point or another and are actually disrespecting their country. They should go to china.

Because when you burn a cross you are not just burning two pieces of wood, you are expressing an act of intellectual violence against the symbol of something you are unhappy with. Any act of violence whether intellectual or physical against any belief system's symbols inspires feelings of anger and thirst for vengeance.

I think a burning cross has a VERY different symbolism, don't you? It's not anti-christian at all, when used by the KKK, now, is it?

But, retard racists aside, if I burned a cross as an atheist, it wouldn't be a violent act, but merely an expression if dissent. It's not about vengeance, or any of the rather over dramatic terms you used, but the freedom to demonstrate.

Flags, crosses etc are just symbols. Any nation with a law against flag burning is not free. So that's the USA, and France. You guys have more in common than you think.

Technically you have to burn a flag when it touches the ground.

Hence if you are planning to burn the flag, just let it touch the ground a bit, and nobody can complain about burning it.
What does it mean if it touches the ground? :confused:

What does it mean if it touches the ground? :confused:

It means you treated the flag with disrespect and let it be contaminated.

I guess it is symbolic.

I learned this in the army.

I only know that in earlier times (in medieval times) the flag of an army in combat was only brought on the ground when defeat was admitted. Perhaps it somehow evolved from that.

And I think people put too much into symbols. If I would burn down the pope it would be an attack on christians, but burning some oieces of wood? Just because I burn some wrappings from McDonalds doesn´t mean that I want to attack the fast food industry.

I think a burning cross has a VERY different symbolism, don't you? It's not anti-christian at all, when used by the KKK, now, is it?

But, retard racists aside, if I burned a cross as an atheist, it wouldn't be a violent act, but merely an expression if dissent. It's not about vengeance, or any of the rather over dramatic terms you used, but the freedom to demonstrate.

Flags, crosses etc are just symbols. Any nation with a law against flag burning is not free. So that's the USA, and France. You guys have more in common than you think.

I don't know. It just seems wrong that someone would want to burn the very artifact that symbolizes the very freedom they have to protest. Conflict of interest?

..and I feel very strongly about the flag of my country. The flag my family members have died defending, and probably yours as well. I don't think I am being over dramatic. I am being as dramatic as I feel. It may seem stronger than you deem worthy, but that is your opinion, and I respect it.

.and I feel very strongly about the flag of my country. The flag my family members have died defending, and probably yours as well.

Mmh, you might have a point there. I do not have such a strong connection to a flag because my family members died defending other flags and other ideals (me being German and some family members died in WW I&II)
So I would say that a flag is still just a piece of cloth, until you attach importance to it.

Seems rather silly to die for a piece of cloth and to be proud of that.

They are not dieing for a piece of cloth they are dieing for the ideals and principals that that piece of cloth stands for. One of the ideals that that cloth stands for is the freedom to express yourself in any way that does not harm another citizen. It does not protect the citizen from getting their feelings hurt. It just protects them physically and economically. Flag burning is a healthy expression of tolerance and it should be defended as such. Let the wackos burn the flag that oppresses them so.

Well put.

i hate people who walk around saying things like "you cant do that because i knew men who died for that flag", well heres a tip. My grandfather died as a result of radiation poisioning from occupying japan and i bloody well KNOW that he would turn in his grave at arguments like this. For some reason solders are always portraied as conservatives. HE was for a republic (not like a US reblicAN i must add), he was a unionest, he was a labor suporter to his grave and his moto was "i may dissagree with your opinion but i would die so that you can have it". Does that sound like a man who would be happy with people being beaten for a flag?

i know he wouldnt, for all i know he probably burned them at one of the MANY protests he went to. Maybe for example the protest against the sacking of Goth Whitlam

Burning Latvia's flag in Latvia is prohibited by law.
I think that is right. You are under the protection of the laws/constitution of the country you are in and then you better pay minimum respect to it.

In America there are laws separating church and state when you start to protect an object based on belief you have crossed over into the territory of religion. I respect the flag and will salute it and stand at attention when it passes, but I will not worship a piece of cloth nor will I allow anyone to tell me that I must treat an object as a privileged person. That is idolatry by my belief and I want to be protected from that kind of hysteria by the constitution of America.

well, in Latvia nobody salutes it or does anything like that. it seems quite funny that they do so in the states.
it's a cloth that is prohibited to burn or change it in any manner (draw a cross on it, etc)

I have served in the military and have gone through a lot of hardship to earn the right to talk the talk. My family is evenly divided on this issue. Two veterans and one civilian are for burning rights. One civilian and one veteran are against flag burning. It aggravates me when people spout off if you had fought for the flag you would respect it more I assure them that I have served and they tend to change the subject. Why is it the ones who are usually the loudest on this issue are the ones who have not served?

maybe because this is an example of the opression they were fighting?

Sometimes returned servicemen really annoy me tho. Like the head of the RSL getting involved with the republican debate. Its really appaling that someone could abuse there position like that and even abuse remberance day the same way. I respect those who have served but i wont leave my country to stagnate because of them. If the country cant move forward then what was the point of them fighting? It would be a betrayal of my grandfather if i didnt stand up. Unfortunatly i was too young to vote in the referendum but i was proud that i lived in the only state to surport a rebulic.

as to the flag. well the flag is just cotton. It means nothing in reality. If i dyed it a different colour then no one would complaine about burning it (except maybe enviromentalists:p) but because its "the flag" it means something more?

No it means nothing. I dont salute the flag. I would seem stupid if i did. in australia we also dont HAVE a oath like the US does and i wouldnt say it if we did. A country is there to serve her people and NEVER the other way around. Its quite dangrouse to even THINK it could be the other way because that leads to Hitlers. I feel more pride when i see people in green and gold at a sports match than i do when i see a piece of cloth because its PEOPLE who are Australia not an antham, not an oath and not a flag.

burning the american flag is an expression of free speech, the very thing that America stands for. so burning the flag can be a contradiction if you are burning it because you dont like america, but if you are burning it because you dont like a particular policy or politician, then it is a perfect example of free speech.

banning burning the flag, makes burning the flag neccesary - banning flagburnings is preventing free speech, and must be stopped at any cost (obviously controlls need to be put on flag burning - the flag's owner must give permition for it to be burnt, you mustnt burn it where it could start a large fire or anythign stupid like that)

so basically, if burning the american flag becomes banned i am gonna buy a bunch of american flags by the next day, and burn the hell out of em

Natioanl flag is the top most symbol of a nation's pride. If you are proud of having free speech then burning the 'symbol of free speech' is like degrading yourslef and your fellow citizens. But on any account it is better burning it than wearing the flag in G-strings. :p

In our country our flag is the symbol of our independance. So burning it is considered like a treason, an act against our country.

Ok, so when burning the flag is prohibited, can I still piss on it to make a point?

"In our country our flag is the symbol of our independance."

how ironic... in my country (australia) our flag is a symbol of our lack of independance

then it according to our laws would be hooliganism and you'd get detained if it's done in a public place
and also a show of disrespect to state symbolics
you'd get additional charges for it

alain: did you vote for the reublic and which state might i ask?

im interested because it seems that no one WANTED to be free, i felt like crying that night because we HAD our chance and we let howard blow it AGAIN for us all. HELL even his DEPUDY was a bloody reblican

alain: did you vote for the reublic and which state might i ask?

im 15...

if i was 18, i wouldnt have voted for that particular republic, because that republic stated that the people elected congress, or whatever it was gonna be caleld, and congress elected the president. if i was 18, i would vote for a republic where the people directly elect the president

you?

soz for double post, i live in NSW, you?

To deify and elevate a symbol so high that to destroy a *SYMBOL* is a crime, is small-minded idiocy at its finest.

Seeing a flag destroyed doesn't change anybodys minds about anything anyways, it perhaps just further entrenches people in their views on either side. If they were just ignored and not such a big deal was made of it, it would greatly decrease in frequency. But when you make it a high crime, and give it lots of press . . . you encourage it.

alain: I am very proud that i live in the only state to vote YES to the republic, ie victoria

and as to the model that was offered why not? This wasnt going to be an american president you know? He wouldnt have had the power to do ANYTHING. He was more going to be like a diplomate. The power SHOULD remain with the PM, thats what he is there for

i guess that makes sense. but it is still pretty hard to trust even the amount of power he would have to a person that i dont directly get a say in who he/she is

We haven't had any problems with this system in Latvia, where the parlament votes in the president. Generally the parlament is not so easy to manipulate as general population and because of that it's harder for an idiot to become a president.

We've had a problem in America using a system where the people don't directly elect the president. I'm sure you know his name.

I'm not sure there was any election if we consider that Bush was put in place.

See thats the point

In the US the presidant DOES things

what does the governer genral do?
sacks the PM
what can parliment do?
sack the governer genral

thats it
thats all he does apart from going to dinner parties and being a diplomate

better for everyone if it wasnt tunred into a popularity contest that cost us MORE money (do you know how much money the electrol commission gives to every party EVERY election? really want them to spend MORE of YOUR money?)

it would be no different to how it is now. The governer genral is given the job by the PM, so it would actually be an improvement over the current system (please dont be nieve and say that the queen apoints the GG because i seriously doubt she even knows the candits name until the PM tells her)

Lol, this discussion is stupid. You should be allowed to do anything as long as it doesn't harm any people that have nothing to do with it.

I guess it's not very honorable when it stands for people that died killing people to give America a better political stance or for oil etc...

What is honorable about killing other people anyway?

Wow guys ive been of sciforums for a while and I saw I was still surcribed to this post you guys know I started this post over a year ago.. I just thought it was funny

yeah trully amazing longevity of the post. What other stuff is still floating around out there ......who knows..........?

Some issues are just too important to ever really fade away.

Pretty questionable whether as an issue this really matters one speck in the larget scheme. But clearly its important to some people. Hey, and who can give a damn about children without medication, families living ont he streets, jobs being gleefully sent to India, the world growing restless about America . . . stop them damn hippies from burning a flag! Don't worry about trying to strengthen and preserve the people that flag represents, worry more about the symbol itself!

It's a flag. If you need a symbol to remind you what your country is about, then your country isn't really about it....

And the worst excuse 'thousands have died to protect the flag'. If somebody chose to die for a flag, good riddens. Protecting the country, sure... but a flag?

I have served in the military and have gone through a lot of hardship to earn the right to talk the talk.

I am sorry, weasel. you have been misinformed. Your rights, especially these fundamental ones, bestowed upon you by virtue of your citizenship in this nation, are yours to claim at birth.

Those that allude otherwise, do so for political gain. All that is necessary to comment on any issue is to be in possession of the facts. Experience is not required and in many cases may be a cause for a bias or slanted viewpoint.

Any animate object is deserving of respect. Sentience would be an added bonus. ;)

And the worst excuse 'thousands have died to protect the flag'. If somebody chose to die for a flag, good riddens. Protecting the country, sure... but a flag?

It is a figure of speech, nothing more.

"In our country our flag is the symbol of our independance."

Its funny how we place thoughts and hope into one small symbol, made of simple fabric, so that someone can destroy and wreck that dream/hope... we should make the flag seem like nothing to us, so when someone burns it in front of us and slams it on the ground, we laugh and stomp on it, then stare at them and blow their brains out... maybe that would show them we care nothing of the flag... place emotion into an object, and it can cause pain on you.

Uh, wait a second. So if they destroy a flag in front of you, you show you care nothing for the flag by "blowing their brains out"? Huh?

What cries out for burning is the entire symbol cult that serves as a substitute for critical thinking. Burning the symbols themselves only causes a knee-jerk reaction without any useful enlightenment.

Instead of teaching our children to pledge allegiance to the flag, and blindly follow the flag into battle, we must teach our children to think for themselves.

In a nation of free thinkers, flag burning is nothing more than a curiosity.

In a nation of free thinkers, flag burning is nothing more than a curiosity.

True, though in a nation of largely sheeplike TV lobotimized mystics flag burning is earth shattering! :)

It's just a symbol made of cloth. If anything, they should be cited for generating pollution if they burn it, as usually the cloth is part synthetic.

True, though in a nation of largely sheeplike TV lobotimized mystics flag burning is earth shattering! :)

For the record, I really like this line.

:m:

Why thanks, I wasn't even using any :m:

:cool:

It is a figure of speech, nothing more.I agree... but people use this as a justificatoin for flag burning to be illegal.
What cries out for burning is the entire symbol cult that serves as a substitute for critical thinking. Burning the symbols themselves only causes a knee-jerk reaction without any useful enlightenment.But ithink that may actually be the point... sadly. There are failings in our government, and it takes blind loyalty to ignore them. Symbols serve this well.

In the end, the only authority comes from people who are willing to fight for their rights in a civilized society the fighting is done through the courts but people who are willing to kill for their beliefs and rights protect a civilized society. The barbarians always win in the end.