In some recent conversation, someone said that all brains are the same. Are all human brains identical, to the milimeter? If there are deviations, what effect does that have (if there is no difference, what effect does that have)?

Also, potential for intelligence is inherited. If someone was born "stupid" (for lack of a better word), is it possible for that person to evolve into a genius relying on mere nurture?

PS. I'm not really sure about the things that go on in the brain. I know that oxygen is important for thinking, but that's about all. Please, be brief, but take your time to explain everything fully.

that person was me
I think (only my oppinion) that all human brains have almost equal processing potential. THe difference between an idiot or a genius is how good they can or can't use the brain for one purpose or another.
if a genetic defect is such that it doesn't allow the human to make some processing physically then it's a hardware problem that can not really be changed (well, gene therapy is on it's way), but if it's a software problem, i.e., human has no hardware problems, but has undeveloped thinking (for one reason or another) then it's just his arrogance and environment to blame not the brain. this applies to that slangish word -> avarage joe

some people are born stupid but that is due to the mothers diet during pregnancy not genes

There is already a huge size variation (which has nothing to do with intelligence apparently). How can they be identical to the millimeter?

I do not have the background to really call myself an expert, but I doubt the wiring 'architecture' would be the same for everyone; whether that be in the physical layout and/or the chemical stablity of the neurons (there can be more than 10,000 conections per neuron of which there are millions of neurons - The 'Campbell' text book I think).

On a side note, I would quite like to copy my own neural states and perhaps paste them onto a more stable medium, like a artificial neural network. My Biomed Eng w/ Cyb (Reading uni, UK) course starts in a couple of months, but even then I think we're many years away from something like that!

There is already a huge size variation (which has nothing to do with intelligence apparently). How can they be identical to the millimeter?
that is not from me. I never actually talked about physical size, but the potential processing power. the ability how to use that power not included

I do not have the background to really call myself an expert, but I doubt the wiring 'architecture' would be the same for everyone; whether that be in the physical layout and/or the chemical stablity of the neurons (there can be more than 10,000 conections per neuron of which there are millions of neurons

Obviously. If it was, we would all think the same! That is, unless u believe in a soul. I really hate having to bring that exception into everything I say :D Its getting annoying now!

In some recent conversation, someone said that all brains are the same. Are all human brains identical, to the milimeter? If there are deviations, what effect does that have (if there is no difference, what effect does that have)?

The diference in two human brains put two seperate fingerprint differences to shame. Physical characterizations that is. There are physical deviations which may or may not effect intelligence. A bigger brain does not mean a bigger IQ.

potential for intelligence is inherited. If someone was born "stupid" (for lack of a better word), is it possible for that person to evolve into a genius relying on mere nurture?

First of all your question becomes moot when you use the word "stupid"...how is stupid being used? in what context? Retarded? or just lazy? No one is born with a logical functioning brain, only the bare neccessities to survive. Most of the brains crucial development takes place after birth. Certain creative and artistic traits can be passed on to childern. The rest is all shaping of personality...which is still horribly simplifying the matter.

I'm not really sure about the things that go on in the brain. I know that oxygen is important for thinking, but that's about all. Please, be brief, but take your time to explain everything fully.

Thats like playing Russian Roulette and saying you want no blood to spill.

some people are born stupid but that is due to the mothers diet during pregnancy not genes

Or genetic defects, breakdown of DNA etc etc

I think (only my oppinion) that all human brains have almost equal processing potential.

Yup, some just grasp at certain things better than others.

THe difference between an idiot or a genius is how good they can or can't use the brain for one purpose or another.

See this is where it gets tricky. One must first define what an idiot is. A lazy child not interested in learning and is quite haughty? He may then ignore his hw and play videogames earning top scores while I may do my hw get an A on the test but die at every level in the same videogame. Certainly two different uses of thought processing and memory functioning being put to test.

Look at chatty 14 year old popular girls.....maybe not be great students but they are shrewed social beings. They know how to get attention and how to manipulate those around them to keep that crown of popularity all the while being downright atrocious to those around her....requires intelligence no?

ok, replace idiot with the lowest end and genius with the highest. somewhere in the 1/4 sits an avarage joe.

Everybodies brain is different based upon their health, the way they were taught, their parents and of course any accidents they might of had. It all amounts up and decides how Stimulated certain regions of brain are.

Stimulation of the brains regions generates better neurological makeup in the sense that the Axioms within the brain are more aligned and maintained with stimulation to keep them as an intact neural pathway.

An example of a less used path is by attempting to write with the hand you don't usually write with. Some people will write worse than a young child, while others might be Ambidextrous and capable of writing as well with both hands.

The person that can't write too well, will have a region of brain that was understimulated, with more stimulation it would be possible to re-engineer that part of the brain to a degree however it will never be as good as if they had started from young during early development (But don't let that put you off trying).

A person is rarely born "stupid" and nurture isn't necessarily going to iron out chemical imbalances an individual suffers from. (For instance Caffine, E-numbers in food, Alcohol, Cannabis or other narcotic substances can cause alterations in the natural equilibrium of the brains chemistry, and is none to wise if an individuals chemistry is already off balance.)

However tutoring is proven to change a persons mind, for instance when you get on a new console with a new game and a new button combination, your not going to be able to do very well to start with in the game as you get use to the buttons. But as you play, your reactions become more aligned with what your trying to accomplish on the screen until your beat the game. (or cheat)
You'll also notice that if you play the game to a silly hour of the morning (or 36 hour stint) the amount of caffine and lack of sleep is enough to make your gaming go bad (you get worse at the game through exhaustion and slower reaction times.)

You'll also notice that if you play the game to a silly hour of the morning (or 36 hour stint) the amount of caffine and lack of sleep is enough to make your gaming go bad (you get worse at the game through exhaustion and slower reaction times.)


Speaking from personal experience ehh? ;)

People's brains are different. No two exactly alike. Some even have the left and right hemisphere's switched around. Language on the right, spacial on the left. Very few, but some. Others have some language areas in the right or some spacial areas in the left. Stuttering, dyslexia, and other learning disorders are associated with this phenomenon.

There is also recent work in glial cells. Once consigned to maintenance roles, now they are believed to be a network within the network. They control neural activity. Increase the signal from this neuron, decrease it from that. Albert Einstein's brain was quite unremarkable. But, it's glial network was vast. More so than the average brain.

There are also marked differences in the brains of women and men. In women, the corpus callosum and anterior commisure (white matter connecting the hemispheres) are bigger and more interconnected. Women are more in touch with their right brain than men. And more likely to fall prey to it. ;)

No two brains are alike.

However, with the assertion that most people can learn the same things given the proper circumstances... I tend to believe this. Within limits. The problem in most instances, I feel, is motivation. And what is motivation? Brain structure?

this all brings up a very interesting question.
what influence does memory/experience have on brain morphology. if we were able to culture a brain with the exact same morphology of say SJ Gould, would it have his life experiences, memories, intelligence? or, could there be 2 brains with the exact same morphology, exact same dendritic conections, etc. but be from 2 different people?

I would imagine if all physical conditions between the 2 brains were identical then they WOULD have similar memories etc. :eek:

Not if there is cellular memory.

Not if there is cellular memory.
yes, this gets very exciting here.

it's not outside the realm of imagination to speculate that we'd have the technology to create, or culture a brain. there are plenty of labs doing it with connective tissue and epithelial tissue. it is also not outside the realm of imagination to speculate that we could one day have the technology to map exactly the human brain, i mean every cell and every dendritic connection.

combine the two technologies and suddenly we can test these hypotheses, i.e. morphology/experience.

there was a cool experiment done with planaria. a group of them were trained to associate light with food. experimenters could get the worms to come to light thinking they were to be fed. they then chopped up the planaria. planaria can regenerate when they're chopped up, and these did. the chopped up planaria retained the training, even those parts that did not contain the brain!!!!

the possibilities are mind boggling

I can't remember where exactly, but I have heard that neurons have some kind of memory.

The question is where this memory resides. Is it present in the gross morphology, or is far more subtle and resides in for instance internal balance of certain regulatory proteins?

Can this memory be really emulated by reconstructing the morphological structure?

Stryderunknown,
Out of interest, what's your academic background?

Same goes for everyone else, while I'm at it.

Just wondering. :|

Doing my PhD in developmenal biology. Should finish in september if I can find an opponent.

I can't remember where exactly, but I have heard that neurons have some kind of memory.

The question is where this memory resides. Is it present in the gross morphology, or is far more subtle and resides in for instance internal balance of certain regulatory proteins?

Can this memory be really emulated by reconstructing the morphological structure?

An article in Scientific American about drug abuse (within a year ago) indicated that certain neurotransmitters and regulatory proteins (i.e. enzymes) can be affected by stimulation.

It is well known that neurons will chemically change at junctions, as a method of 'weighting' the firing potential of incoming signals. (Neural Networks, Phil Picton)

I imagine our memory operates by both on the chemical level and by the firing states.

I can't remember where exactly, but I have heard that neurons have some kind of memory.

The question is where this memory resides. Is it present in the gross morphology, or is far more subtle and resides in for instance internal balance of certain regulatory proteins?

Can this memory be really emulated by reconstructing the morphological structure?
yes, i should really do some rudimentary research on the topic.

what are the possibilities;

chemical memory in the cytoplasm, or
morphological memory based on dendritic connections and gross morphology like cerebral furrows, or
a combination, or

what else?

let's make a list.

I read a book about 10 years or so ago called Star Wave. It was a quantum computer theory of the brain. I imagine that this one is "stretch" to put it mildly. But, interesting anyway. The brain fluid was used in this theory to hold information. Can't recall details, it's been too long since I've read it and was never an expert in quantum mechanics to begin with.

Stryderunknown,
Out of interest, what's your academic background?

Same goes for everyone else, while I'm at it.

Just wondering. :|

My backgrounding is a mixture of a Labrat merged with a "Pauli effect" (well without experiments going wrong).

I've covered a variety of subjects through research, some better than others (which is sometimes proven) and a contender for the equivalent of a Phd.

My research into Neurological functions was purely for research into Artificial Intelligence systems and Neural Networks. To built a better Intelligence system it requires a better understanding of how to create a program and network to do what we do and do it more efficiently.

Which admittedly has included alot of extrapolation over how some things work because it's dealing with the philosophies of how a function could be achieved and not necessarily how it actually is.


Speaking from personal experience ehh?

You could say so, Caffine, late nights and Games sessions are enough to mess a persons perception up. Jumping at shadows etc

Back on the subject, What I was actually informed was that the memory is Cellular and I did derive a reasoning to prove the cellular level memory.

Card Example:
my explaination carries quite well in reference to autism (namely I this example I have as evidence "for" my suggestion). In a particular film about an Autistic that saw his parents murdered, and explaination of autism is used that an autistic accesses memories in order. The example was of a suit taken from a pack of cards where to get to say the 7 of clubs the autistic has to step through all the cards from the Ace of Clubs through to the 7 of Clubs to access that memory.

to cover how this fits in with what I suggest, I have to explain a bit to give you a grounds up approach to help you understand where I'm coming from.

As most of you should know from the most primitive understanding of Biology, Cells Subdivide. However what you might not know is that when they subdivide they generate an alteration within the genetic code that "marks" that division, then the cells go on to divide again etc.

Eventually the division continues until the cells reach a genetic point where division is impossible to continue because the overall coding would be too great to continue cellular "cloning" through division, this means either the cells stop reproducing through mitosis or they start mutating the code and leaving bits out. If it stops producing then thats the cellular limit which will be apparent in other cells of the same age and source pathing, leaving bits out is where I believe junk code comes in, because it can't leave out the patterning that suggests the cells development and future subdivision characteristics.

[A computerised example here would be like suggesting that a computers memory has been alloted only 1mb, and a program that keeps adding things to the end of the information thats stored has to either chop off some of the code to continue refreshing the stored memory or stop producing a refresh because a size limit has been reached.

In fact I suggest that Junk code within DNA is like RAM, where information is parsed and can be recompiled from time to time and housed for interaction with other cells.]

I realised one day while I was remonising about something in my childhood, that a memory that wasn't directly associated with what I was remembering occured. This memory was from my childhood dated around the same period as the memory I was remembering.

This suggested to me that the genetic mitosis code for the first memory I was accessing, triggered a consecutive memory that would have been created around the same time and consisted of a similar genetic code. (like the age of the cells)

Which in turn led me to think of how that interaction occured and of course the Card example I started with.

However my thoughts to this point concerned a few theories on the powers of the mind, For instance it could be possible for a memory to construct a virus which would potentially be an "Against" to contest my theory, however I have no data to suggest thats the case.

However it could be possible that a DNA pattern placed within a particular chemical combination could be used to Sculpture particular neurological traits within the brain (like the morphology thats been suggested) like taking a trait from a very smart individual and causing it to be replicated in others. However the outcome would potentially cause a number of side effects and it's all luckily fiction, Although it could be a method of fixing certain neurological illnesses like Parkinsons etc.

Also while still on the topic of Neurology, a Hypothesis was reached on how communication occurs within the brain. Consensus suggests that Braincells communicate through through the Axons as a medium, however a suggestion that the actual cell could work also on a frequency scale was presumed.

Namely your cells could work with a similar interaction to radiofrequency, where a cells stimulation can generate massive synaptic changes that altered a wave formation quantum state that is received by nearby Cells that have their synapses aligned in particular positions at the time of reception.

This Hypothesis was suggested as the consideration of the "bandwidth" of the Axon's seemed to be be too low to deal with the overall information transactions that the brain does. Rather than causing a hypothetical "traffic jam" when the information flow is too great, it was perceived it could be transfered as a waveformation.

This hypothesis gives reason why people with Disattached Frontal lobes can still operate like a person without the disattachment. It even helps explain how the brain generates a "clustered" stimulation effect when captured on realtime MRI.

It might be because I'm tired and have just had a drink, but I don't entirely follow.

Are you suggesting that brain cells interact by means other than charge propagation along axons/synapses?

Also with regard to the genetic 'marks' (issued during instances of mitosis), how are these referenced when memories are required? I thought brain cells were very long lived and thus do not divide regularly.

I would have thought memory was either 'software' (phyiscal layout = constant, signals in loops) or both soft and hardware based as mentioned in a previous post.

Great to hear you're into NN's, I'm really looking forward to studying them at uni. I'm only self taught so far.

This is why I like the peer review method because my examples tend to get long winded and lose people, so it helps to go over the areas where someone has or hasn't understood via Q & A.

Q: Are you suggesting that brain cells interact by means other than charge propagation along axons/synapses?

A: Yes, I'm suggesting that an Excited Cell can generate a waveformation that is either electromagnetic or chemical(like smell) and that neighbouring cells process the waveform through an array of open ended synapses that aren't directly link to axons.


Q: Also with regard to the genetic 'marks' (issued during instances of mitosis), how are these referenced when memories are required? I thought brain cells were very long lived and thus do not divide regularly.

A: Again this is theoretics based on a Neurological strategy in computing and "might" not be the reality in Neurology, however my suggestion is that a kind of encoded shuffle takes place within the genetic makeup. example:

You start with a genetic code that contains a HEADER, this being information that's need to define the formation of the CELL and junk coding thats "Expendable".

The example has HEADER being something that can't be altered for the above reason, and the random lower case letters as being junkcode. Phases are mitosis occurances.

Phase 1: > HEADERwsozehtvlsnvoeng
Phase 2: > xHEADERwsozehtvlsnvoen
Phase 3: > exHEADERwsozehtvlsnvoe
...
Phase 18: > wgpnghrwhgpnhrwrHEADER
Phase 19: > awgpnghrwhgpnhrwrHEADE

The above shows you how I suggest it could be possible, The code at every mitosis phase is shifted a position (this is simplified for the example), by Phase 18 (in this example) the Code has amost got to the point where the Header is going to be malformed, when this occurs by Phase 19 it no longer produces Mitosis because it can no longer do so due to it's genetic pattern being malformed.

It is correct saying that eventually (by the age of about 21) the Human brain stops producing extra brain cells. (They can't subdivide after Interphase (http://www.tqnyc.org/NYC040844/Mitosis.htm)) but this ties in with the theory that memory is stored within the Junk data as if it could subdivide it would cause mutations. (which is why I pointed out the Phased subdivision above to show malformity, Aging and how a cell inerts itself.)

If Memory was software based, then when you go to sleep at night you would wake up in the morning and forget most of what happened the day before.

My previous suggestion on the actual storing of data was the use of UV photonic reactions to alter the junk code state similar to photogenic film, it would tie in nicely with how the Pineal gland could produce melatonin to attempt to stop the overexposure of tissue to UV. Again it is just speculation and really for a better understanding of NN mechanics.

[As you'll find out when you get to Uni, "Don't take peoples words for it" otherwise you could open yourself up to peer review critism.

Yes, I'm suggesting that an Excited Cell can generate a waveformation that is either electromagnetic or chemical(like smell) and that neighbouring cells process the waveform through an array of open ended synapses that aren't directly link to axons.

That is interesting. So there are 'loose' synapses not connected to incoming axons, that can be stimulated by EM? I had not considered that.

If Memory was software based, then when you go to sleep at night you would wake up in the morning and forget most of what happened the day before.

Not necessarily, perhaps different physical pathways are used for this. Is short-term memory software memory?

Now, although you point out that brain cells do not actually divide, even in the hypothetical case how is it supposed that these junk genes are read? Bearing in mind how quickly memories can be recalled.

UV etc...
I take it we are talking about cellular memory in general rather than brain cells?

[Please note my theoretical model isn't about a human brain so much as a NN one, also note they are a work in progress, so questions can actually start to alter the theory based upon if the original theory stands up to peer review or not.]

http://www.psycheducation.org/mechanism/introduction%20to%20mechanism.htm

Although the example covers depression, it gives you a clue to how the synapses work with transreception of signals.

looking at it would suggest my current theory of how junk DNA is used would be incorrect, it doesn't store the memory. However It could store a Heirarchy map, a pattern matching code that decides on which cells are compatible with it's communication.

I had looked at this preportion before, The theory was actually to do with Languages across the world in relationship to the brain from a metaphysical angle. If the brain sends a signal from one point to another, does it distinguish itself as having an Accent or Foreign language, so as not to trick other regions into stimulation/processing?

In reality it's probably more down to a kind of inverse square logic, where the distance between clusters means they can't hear each other. Again this theory is really for Neural Networks in defining how systems in a parallel processing configuration should be able to comunicate with one another at a low enough bandwidth level to attempt to stop the network from being conjested.

However this brings us back to how information is stored, since it's now defined as not that far into genetics. The only real answer is in how the synapses work, a carrier could be "locked" into position until it's released by a chemical reaction caused by either Time, Heat, Cellular excitement or Enzymatic signal. It provides the "why it's not totally software" because it's using a Quibit system (namely a physical marker rather than floating point operand).

Theorisation here is If you have say 10 people in a room, and you have 5 stand on each side of the room acting as neural transreceivers how do they communicate messages from one to another? in the brain a "vocalised" command is suggested as a chemical switch, however that would suggest that the region between the neural transreceivers is a sea of different chemicals, a flood or noise of commands.

That would mean that a person in the group on one side, speaking to another person on the otherside is speaking out load to the "group", as you can tell with all 10 talking it would create quite noise. It could be suggested that If something important has been said to someone (within this "Broadcast") they would have to stick their fingers in their ears and drown out the continued broadcast. They would have to take a prompt with their eyesight when to release their captured (remembered) command.

My suggestion in the brain however is that the Eyesight trigger is one of these neurotransmitters having an enzyme effect that "unsticks" a "fixed" synapse. This would tie in well with how some anti-psychotic drugs can cause side effects in the human brain, like wiping memory if the drug itself covers the "eyesight trigger" and "unfixes" the markers of memory.

This would all tie in with the localised cluster scenario as another 10 people in another room next door are a faint mummer and don't cause collisions of commands due to their proximity being too distant and muffled to have commands perceived.

A continued suggestion here in the field of neuropsychosis with one of my original points about "waveforms" being a preportion to the this puzzle has to be ommitted.
It's been known for sometime (the beginning of the 20th Century) that studying atoms at the subatomic level had alot of draw backs. One was notibly defined by E. Heisenberg and became known as "The Heisenberg Effect".

It's actual reasoning was about the uncertainty of atomic positioning based upon the technique of subatomic measurement. (I believe it was suggested a photon used to define the location of an electron would alter the course of the electron in regards to where it was "destined to go".).

I bring this up here because if a person has a waveformation event similar to what Heisenberg explained, then the information doesn't arrive at the destination it was suppose to. This could explain absentmindedness/forgetfulness, because where something was suppose to be stored it wasn't placed in the right location due to potential external interaction (.ie. eating food, drinking coffee etc) or a small "networking collision".

Again in the field of Quantum Mechanics,Erwin Schrodinger preposed a theory on Waverformations through the use of his legendary "Schrodingers Cat" theoretical experiment, the experiment itself isn't whats important however some of the theorised outcomes are. One was the duality state of coexistance of the cat based upon the radioactive ingredient within a box.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Schrodingers%20cat

In this particular instance, I'm not suggesting there is a radioactive ingredient within the brain, however it is exposed to UV (among other types) of radiation. Interaction of a radio frequency for instance from a mobile telephone could cause a Duality state of a neurotransmitter, it could have a physical existance in one location while also having a electromagnetic background (blackbody) secondary position within the brain causing a paradox. Such paradoxes I believe could be responsible for some forms of psychotraumatic trauma, as the paradoxal state causes a very weird sideeffect since two positions within the brain would be privy to the same signals at the same time, which could be conflicting ones.

This would a difficult one to do in a people in a room experiment, since you would have to generate a parallel of the room, and then you would have to have one person say a Command at the same time thats different in each universe. From the perception of the receiver the one in their own universe will be the loudest Command, however they will too be privy to the Parallel Command causing a "collision". (Collusion being a paradox)

I think in total this is getting near what it is, however keep the questions (and facts) coming as it will clean up any errors in logic.

*printed* will reply later.