Old Proverb: Sowing Wild Oats

When I was in my younger days we had a proverbial expression called "Sowing Wild Oats." It applied to people in their teens and 20s that went through a wild phase then left it behind. It's been around a long time -- much longer than the "immutably born gay" template -- and it's still here, showing that not everyone is "born gay" anymore than they are born drug addicts, or born alchoholics, or just "born promiscuous."

I think my whole generation went through it (I'm a boomer). We experimented with booze, drugs, and sex. Some went even further into bisexual and gay sex -- most giving it up years later while a few others stayed in it. There were the hippie communes, the wild parties, etc., etc. I even thought I was having fun doing some of that stuff.

Anne Heche is a more modern day example of it. Some of her quotes:


Suddenly, I knew what I was here to do, and I knew it the moment I saw this glorious woman, Ellen DeGeneres, across the room."

-Anne Heche, from the Advocate, April 30, 2000


When Heche and Degeneres appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show to discuss their newfound relationship, Heche stunned everyone (including Oprah) by stating, "I was not gay before I met her."

Heche, who said her father was gay, told everyone that it was time she lived her life "truthfully."


Heche to an OUT magazine interviewer:

"People, and children especially, need to know that there aren't any rules about what you should feel safe to explore in your own heart. I don't consider myself to be straight. And I don't consider myself to be a lesbian--though I'm by no means ashamed of it. Yes, I'm gay. I'm in a gay relationship. I just don't like any terminology."

Heche has now chosen to be heterosexual and to prove it she got married on last Saturday to Coleman Laffron, a Hollywood cameraman she met while working on a project with then lover Ellen. Was she secretly dreaming of a white, heterosexual Christmas while she was with Ellen? If she was, then can we theorize that many gay people really do want to be straight, but just haven't found the right cameraman/woman yet? -- D.L Foster


If Anne was coming up in the 60s or the 70s we'd be saying yet another one "sowed her wild oats." It's not PC now days I suppose.

Lou Reed wrote a song about it called Walk on the Wild Side.

Well here are some more "Famous Annie" quotes:

http://www.hollywood.com/news/detail/id/312971

Aug. 25: The tabloids say the Big Breakup was caused by Heche's renewed attraction to men, specifically, her former co-star Vince Vaughn.


http://www.hollywood.com/feature/id/471860


Heche contended on "The Oprah Winfrey Show" in 1997: "I was not gay before I met [Ellen.] It wasn't immediately a sexual attraction."


After leaving Ellen:


"I'm not crazy, but it's a crazy life. I was raised in a crazy family and it took 31 years to get the crazy out of me." -Anne Heche


Well I guess it's somebody's word against Anne's. She sewed some wild oats and moved on with her life. Anne said she had to develop her same sex attraction with Ellen. She never had that attraction before, and shows no signs of interest in any other female. Hmmmmmm.

The old familiar root cause for sexual "diversity"-- She was molested by her father:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/0...anne.heche.ap/

One of the things I've learned," Heche says, "is my story is one of millions ... children who are neglected, abused, treated badly."
In her 2001 autobiography, "Call Me Crazy," Heche revealed that she had been molested as a child by her father, a secretly gay strict Baptist who died of AIDS in 1983.

Then after leaving Ellen she married a man:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1522840.stm

When Annie talks about changing sexual orientation who needs a fundamentalist preacher?

She just did it for publicity, right?

soo....what's your point?

She just did it for publicity, right?

She turned lesbian for publicity you say?

Who knows?

Sounds like she's bisexual; its not unusual.

Are you born bisexual?

Sounds like she's bisexual; its not unusual.

How was she only attracted to Ellen? How did she lose interest?

Maybe she thought that Ellen is more beautiful than men and other women, but then changed her mind.

ITS EASIER TO BE GAY..... thats makes them victums.

being straight... comes with children.... THATS ALOT HARDER.

-MT

ITS EASIER TO BE GAY..... thats makes them victums.

being straight... comes with children.... THATS ALOT HARDER.

-MT

Ermmm having seen my gay friends put up with the prejudices that exist in society (eg. from people like you), and being a parent and straight myself, I can assure you that a homosexual person has it a lot harder.

Parenthood and being straight is not hard when one compares the horrors some people have to face because they are homosexuals. For example, a straight parent is less likely to be bashed up for being straight and a parent. A homosexual, however, is more likely to be beaten up because they are homosexual.

Maybe she thought that Ellen is more beautiful than men and other women, but then changed her mind.

So beauty causes it.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, plus, maybe Ellen gave her a bunch of money.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, plus, maybe Ellen gave her a bunch of money.

So money caused it. :shrug:

It seems reasonable to me, since Ann "switched back" after a relatively short stint of gayness.

If you're "born gay," then how can you "switch back?"

If you're "born gay," then how can you "switch back?"

Are you saying the "born gay" template doesn't work?

Does Ann say she was born gay?

Oh I see, Ann says she was not gay before she met Ellen, so Ann was born straight, then went gay, then switched back, so that obviously breaks the "born straight" template, and you would assume the vice-versa would be true as well.

According to the most careful researchers, women do not seem to be sexually oriented in the same way men are.

There's a thread on it.

So Ms Heche may not even have been "sowing wild oats" - but instead simply behaving normally and responsibly.

Just as the past middle-aged Ted Haggard was not exactly indulging the wild oats of confused youth.

And "born straight" men can have, and enjoy, gay sex just as "born gay" men can father children - but it doesn't change their orientation. Wire them up and show them porn, and the differences in response are obvious - even in men who have never "behaved" in such ways at all.

And "born straight" men can have, and enjoy, gay sex just as "born gay" men can father children - but it doesn't change their orientation. Wire them up and show them porn, and the differences in response are obvious - even in men who have never "behaved" in such ways at all.

Oh I see, so if two men or women are having gay sex with each other they aren't necessarily gay even though they take sexual pleasure in it. Gayness isn't really about sexual behavior at all. I'm glad we cleared that up. So tell me what it is about. :shrug:

It's all about color coordination.

It's all about color coordination.

Take a look at Ann's quote:

People, and children especially, need to know that there aren't any rules about what you should feel safe to explore in your own heart. I don't consider myself to be straight. And I don't consider myself to be a lesbian--though I'm by no means ashamed of it. Yes, I'm gay. I'm in a gay relationship. I just don't like any terminology.

Some people feel they need to make a label to isolate the behavior from the person. Then they turn around and say well gayness is how much thus and so is attracted to the same sex on a scale of 1 to 10. Who can deny they are sexually attracted when they are having voluntary gay sex together? I say they are all "10s" while they are in the act. :shrug:

Oh I see, so if two men or women are having gay sex with each other they aren't necessarily gay even though they take sexual pleasure in it. Gayness isn't really about sexual behavior at all. I'm glad we cleared that up. So tell me what it is about. You know there are actual investigations into this, right? You wire someone up to a brain activity scanner and some blood pressure readers and show them porn. It's how the more sophisticated behavioral folks get a reading on pedophiles and other people who always lie.

Like fundie Christians.

And most people -not all, but most - can enjoy the physical stimulation of sex with either sex of partner, or both at once. But gay men don't react to porn the same way straight men do. They don't have the same dreams, the same fantasies. They don't fall hotly in love with women. They don't go way out of their way to "accidently" bump into that special woman. There's a real difference, regardless of sexual behavior.

There are gay and straight celibates. Just ask them, if you don't believe me.

Gay women, less of a physiological distinction. Women may not in fact have an orientation, as men do, on average - it's possible.

Meanwhile, you tell me whether you think Ted Haggard would show up gay or straight on that scanner. I bet he registers as gay, regardless of his behavior with his wife for 28 years. Would you bet he doesn't?

"Fundie Christians always lie," what a fool you are iceaura.

You know there are actual investigations into this, right? You wire someone up to a brain activity scanner and some blood pressure readers and show them porn. It's how the more sophisticated behavioral folks get a reading on pedophiles and other people who always lie.

Like fundie Christians.

Hmm, you just proved how accurate this sophisticated method must be! See there -- I was lieing again.:rolleyes:

And most people -not all, but most - can enjoy the physical stimulation of sex with either sex of partner, or both at once.

I guess so, if a sex toy can be used for sexual pleasure, why not an animate object as well?

But gay men don't react to porn the same way straight men do. They don't have the same dreams, the same fantasies.

Oh, ok, so you're telling me it's all in their head. Good point. Very good point. I'll have to remember to fantasize next time I have sex instead of just enjoying it. :D

They don't fall hotly in love with women.

A lot of men don't -- they just want a quikie!

They don't go way out of their way to "accidently" bump into that special woman.

There's a real difference, regardless of sexual behavior.

There are gay and straight celibates. Just ask them, if you don't believe me.

oh, I certainly believe you.

Gay women, less of a physiological distinction. Women may not in fact have an orientation, as men do, on average - it's possible.

I wouldn't know.

Meanwhile, you tell me whether you think Ted Haggard would show up gay or straight on that scanner.

I think he shows up adulterer.

I bet he registers as gay, regardless of his behavior with his wife for 28 years. Would you bet he doesn't?

Or maybe he could stop fantasizing about sex. It's rare I ever have one, even during the performance of my "husbandly duties." Focus on what it feels like and it feels better! That's what I say.

Good ol' Woody!

IceAgedunCivilization was born temporarily lucid.
That time has gone now…unfortunately.

No, and/but you do have spasms of lucidity.

Gay women, less of a physiological distinction. Women may not in fact have an orientation, as men do, on average - it's possible.

Or as Ann says, they have to acquire a taste:

Heche contended on "The Oprah Winfrey Show" in 1997: "I was not gay before I met [Ellen.] It wasn't immediately a sexual attraction."

It was kind of like when I first started drinking coffee -- not an immediate attraction. I had to acquire a taste for it. :m:

It was kind of like when I first started drinking coffee -- not an immediate attraction. I had to acquire a taste for it. When you make that comparison, and appear to honestly think it applies, I believe you about not having sex fantasies.

As Edward Abbey, I think it was, put it: fundamentalist religion is a failure of imagination.

But don't mistake that world for other people's: not everyone is materialistic. They fall in love, stuff like that, as part of their erotic life. And they don't get to choose who they fall in love with - unlike behavior, it's not something they can control.

Hence "orientation". Not something one has much say in.
I think he shows up adulterer Who was he adulterous with: was he married, in the sight of God, to his wife? Or was he cheating on his true love given to him by God, by hiding in a conventional and dishonest marriage ?

When you make that comparison, and appear to honestly think it applies, I believe you about not having sex fantasies.

As Edward Abbey, I think it was, put it: fundamentalist religion is a failure of imagination.

Hmm, I guess that doesn't include music.

But don't mistake that world for other people's: not everyone is materialistic. They fall in love, stuff like that, as part of their erotic life. And they don't get to choose who they fall in love with - unlike behavior, it's not something they can control.

They are very much out of control. I can agree with that.


Hence "orientation". Not something one has much say in.

How does it change, as with Ann Heche? Was it the right camera man in shining armor?

Who was he adulterous with: was he married, in the sight of God, to his wife? Or was he cheating on his true love given to him by God, by hiding in a conventional and dishonest marriage ?

He cheated on his wife. There wasn't any love lost with his co-adulterer.

They are very much out of control. I can agree with that. And so are you, in that manner.

So when you call for controlling behavior, which is only partially possible, you call for bad faith - fundamental dishonesty as a way of life - on the part of the Ted Haggards of this world. Behavior not just controlled, but concealed, as a fundamental human motive.
How does it change, as with Ann Heche? Did it? We don't know.
He cheated on his wife. There wasn't any love lost with his co-adulterer. And you are sure of the love lost with his wife? No denial of his true love, back in seminary, and subsequent life of playacting ?

As long as you're sure - --.

Originally Posted by woody
They are very much out of control. I can agree with that.

And so are you, in that manner.

How would you know when I was celibate?

------------------------------------

“ Originally Posted by Woody
How does it change, as with Ann Heche? ”

Did it? We don't know.

Well Ann said so, and married a guy. Why do you think otherwise?

------------------------------------



So when you call for controlling behavior, which is only partially possible, you call for bad faith - fundamental dishonesty as a way of life

When I was celibate for 10 years until I married, I didn't know I was being dishonest.

------------------------------------


- on the part of the Ted Haggards of this world. Behavior not just controlled, but concealed, as a fundamental human motive.

I'm glad some people don't kill when they feel anger burning in them.

---------------------------------------


u are sure of the love lost with his wife?

I was speaking of his gay "lover" -- when they broke up, nobody felt they lost any love.

--------------------------------------

s true love, back in seminary, and subsequent life of playacting ?

How does one play act genuine love?

----------------------------------

and finally, a drum roll please.......

As Edward Abbey, I think it was, put it: fundamentalist religion is a failure of imagination.

and Skinwalker tells us we have way too much imagination...LOL

I was once temporarilly sodomized by Hugh Jackman.

It still hurts (in a strictly manly way, mind you).

This is simple.

There is a difference between homosexual behavior and homosexual people. The difference is that gay people are ATTRACTED to the same sex. As pointed out earler in several post, one can have gay sex and not be gay, but one cannot be attracted to the same sex and not be gay, even if they never engage in sexual activity. It is about perference, not the actual activity of sex. Your either perfer the opposite sex, the same, or both,.....straight, gay, bi.

Now, about it being a choice. Being gay IS NOT A CHOICE, for those that are truly gay. Bi-sexual people and dumb people have confused the issue, some people think they are gay or want to be gay but are not. Sexual perference and attraction are not things that somebody choose. These are things that are developed before one is born thru DNA, and modified throughtout life by the eniviroment and culture that one lives. But nobody choses who they are attracted to, it is a biochemical response to favorable stimuli.

If you disagree with the idea that people are not born gay, then ask your self a few questions: At what age did you DECIDE you were striaght? What made you decide you wanted to be straight? How long did you ponder this before making a decision? When did you made your decision? Did you tell your friends? Was it a final decision etc...? Get the point? You never answered any of these question because you never had too, you just knew and did. There was no choice.

This is simple.

There is a difference between homosexual behavior and homosexual people. The difference is that gay people are ATTRACTED to the same sex. As pointed out earler in several post, one can have gay sex and not be gay, but one cannot be attracted to the same sex and not be gay, even if they never engage in sexual activity. It is about perference, not the actual activity of sex. Your either perfer the opposite sex, the same, or both,.....straight, gay, bi.

Now, about it being a choice. Being gay IS NOT A CHOICE, for those that are truly gay. Bi-sexual people and dumb people have confused the issue, some people think they are gay or want to be gay but are not. Sexual perference and attraction are not things that somebody choose. These are things that are developed before one is born thru DNA, and modified throughtout life by the eniviroment and culture that one lives. But nobody choses who they are attracted to, it is a biochemical response to favorable stimuli.

If you disagree with the idea that people are not born gay, then ask your self a few questions: At what age did you DECIDE you were striaght? What made you decide you wanted to be straight? How long did you ponder this before making a decision? When did you made your decision? Did you tell your friends? Was it a final decision etc...? Get the point? You never answered any of these question because you never had too, you just knew and did. There was no choice.


So are some men genetically predisposed to a fetish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fetishism) for certain articles of clothing? Is this not a preference as well in exactly the same sense? The fetish object heightens their sexual arousal in the same way, doesn't it? At what point did a person chose to have a fetish, etc. etc.?

Additionally, what about Ann Heche? Doesn't that shatter the born gay template? No one can deny she was in a gay relationship. Even she doesn't deny it. :shrug:

So are some men genetically predisposed to a fetish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fetishism) for certain articles of clothing? Is this not a preference as well in exactly the same sense? The fetish object heightens their sexual arousal in the same way, doesn't it? At what point did a person chose to have a fetish, etc. etc

Additionally, what about Ann Heche? Doesn't that shatter the born gay template? No one can deny she was in a gay relationship. Even she doesn't deny it. :shrug:

A person develops a fetish through personal experience. How can someone have a festish for something..shoes for example, without first deciding what gender person he perfers in those shoes. One must first have sexual perference before they can develop what they like about sex.


On the other hand, one is born with sexual perference. There will come a time in a child's life where biological changes will occur and they will start developing into a teen. The hormonones produced in to brain will spur developing teen into becoming interested in sex, at which point, cultrual and enviromental factors will compete with natural desires to create what someones's sexual perference is.

Heche is either bisexual or confused. If she can find either men or women sexually attractive then she is bi. If she simply thinks shes gay because she "fell in love" with a woman, then she probaly isn't gay. She just engaged in homosexual behavior and like it. But she obviously perferrs heterosexual relationships which is why she is in one now.

People don't choose who they are attracted to no more than you can choose what talents they are born with. Talents, like homosexuality, can be repressed, developed, ignored, etc. But one cannot simply chose to not have them any more.

Think about it.

These inane threads of Woody's are like Israel... they don't deserve to exist.

Heche is either bisexual or confused. If she can find either men or women sexually attractive then she is bi. If she simply thinks shes gay because she "fell in love" with a woman, then she probaly isn't gay. She just engaged in homosexual behavior and like it. But she obviously perferrs heterosexual relationships which is why she is in one now.

If it were purely genetic then ALL sets of identical twins would be either gay or straight, but they are not.

If it were purely genetic then ALL sets of identical twins would be either gay or straight, but they are not.

So what?

Good luck to people who decide to become gay.

Poor Woody. You've been on this forum for God knows how long, and you still have trouble grasping the concept that merely because a trait (either physical or psychological) is not purely determined by genetics, does not equate to it being consciously induced by the individual.

I've asked you this before, and I'll ask you yet again. Neural tube defects are multifactorial, having primarily a non-genetic origin. Does that mean that babies who suffer from neural tube defects 'will' themselves to develop these defects in the womb?

And may I point out that changes in sexual orientation in no way indicate that homosexuality is 'choice.. As a man ages, he tends to lose his libido. If I were to apply your rationale, I'd reach the conclusion that older men must consciously will themselves to feel less attracted to the opposite sex.

Likewise, heterosexuals (especially teenagers), tend to feel differently for people over time. Is such emotional modification conscious?

As always, your posts are just crap. I reiterate my sentiment about your posts being similiar to Israel: In the sense that they don't deserve to exist.

Poor Woody. You've been on this forum for God knows how long, and you still have trouble grasping the concept that merely because a trait (either physical or psychological) is not purely determined by genetics, does not equate to it being consciously induced by the individual.

I've asked you this before, and I'll ask you yet again. Neural tube defects are multifactorial, having primarily a non-genetic origin. Does that mean that babies who suffer from neural tube defects 'will' themselves to develop these defects in the womb?

And may I point out that changes in sexual orientation in no way indicate that homosexuality is 'choice.. As a man ages, he tends to lose his libido. If I were to apply your rationale, I'd reach the conclusion that older men must consciously will themselves to feel less attracted to the opposite sex.

Likewise, heterosexuals (especially teenagers), tend to feel differently for people over time. Is such emotional modification conscious?

As always, your posts are just crap. I reiterate my sentiment about your posts being similiar to Israel: In the sense that they don't deserve to exist.:bravo: :worship: Couldn't have said it better myself.

Woody:

Gayness isn't really about sexual behavior at all.


Wow, for someone who continually tugs at this topic like a dog with a bone, I thought you'd be a little more knowledgable.

Homosexuality is being sexually attracted to members of your own gender. It's that simple.

Why are you so confused about the matter? You wouldn't happen to be a closet homosexual, would you? They tend to exhibit such confusion before 'coming out'.

:bravo: :worship: Couldn't have said it better myself.

Of course you agree with it -- you'll agree with anything that makes you feel better about being gay.

Originally Posted by mountainhare
Poor Woody. You've been on this forum for God knows how long, and you still have trouble grasping the concept that merely because a trait (either physical or psychological) is not purely determined by genetics, does not equate to it being consciously induced by the individual.

Self-control, on the other hand, is induced by the individual. An indivdual that can not control their urges lacks character. It's called self-discipline, and americans are greatly lacking.

I've asked you this before, and I'll ask you yet again. Neural tube defects are multifactorial, having primarily a non-genetic origin. Does that mean that babies who suffer from neural tube defects 'will' themselves to develop these defects in the womb?

of course not. So?


And may I point out that changes in sexual orientation in no way indicate that homosexuality is 'choice.

Acting on it is the choice. Now there is a social agenda that says it is ok to give in on all sexual fronts, led by the hollywood entertainment industry. The one where I must abstain is adultery. I don't care how much Hollywood glamorizes sleeping with another woman, this is not ok.


. As a man ages, he tends to lose his libido. If I were to apply your rationale, I'd reach the conclusion that older men must consciously will themselves to feel less attracted to the opposite sex.

They can take viagra.


Likewise, heterosexuals (especially teenagers), tend to feel differently for people over time. Is such emotional modification conscious?

There are choices they make that help shape their outcome. For example, those that chose to indulge in premarital sex are setting themselves up for temptation issues in a marriage.

As always, your posts are just crap.

I was thinking the same about yours. I was saying, "oh no, more of mountain hare's name calling diatribes." You almost came clean this time. almost..


I reiterate my sentiment about your posts being similiar to Israel: In the sense that they don't deserve to exist.

but you respond to them anyway, like you can't control yourself.

BTW Israel has always existed, so is another holocast needed in your opinion?

Ahh, the gymnastics events that Woody engages in are a delight to watch. Apparently he never said that being ATTRACTED to the same gender was choice, but that acting upon such attraction was. That sort of contradicts his entire 2,000+ plus history on this forum. *shrugs*

Whatever. I'm quite happy with this new revelation of Woody's. It's quite reasonable. Feeling sexually attracted to the someone is outside the control of the individual in question. Acting upon sexual urges is within the control of the individual.

Now all Woody needs to do is explain why acting upon a homosexual sexual urge is morally wrong, whereas acting upon a heterosexual sexual urge is not.


"oh no, more of mountain hare's name calling diatribes."


Name calling diatribes? Where did I call you names? Or are you just making stuff up?

Tell you what. If you can quote me as having called you a nasty name in this thread, even once, I will fall to my knees and beg for forgiveness.

Ahh, the gymnastics events that Woody engages in are a delight to watch. Apparently he never said that being ATTRACTED to the same gender was choice, but that acting upon such attraction was. That sort of contradicts his entire 2,000+ plus history on this forum. *shrugs*

I find some drag queens attractive in the face anyway. Only becasue it looks like a woman's face.

Whatever. I'm quite happy with this new revelation of Woody's.

No it's not new. I had an entire thread on drag queens.

It's quite reasonable. Feeling sexually attracted to the someone is outside the control of the individual in question. Acting upon sexual urges is within the control of the individual.

I think the attraction is also under control, once the moral barrier is drawn. For example I don't lust after beautiful women.

Now all Woody needs to do is explain why acting upon a homosexual sexual urge is morally wrong, whereas acting upon a heterosexual sexual urge is not.

Fornication is morally wrong.

Name calling diatribes? Where did I call you names? Or are you just making stuff up?

Tell you what. If you can quote me as having called you a nasty name in this thread, even once, I will fall to my knees and beg for forgiveness.

Maybe its the bitterness. I forget, since it's been a while.

Of course you agree with it -- you'll agree with anything that makes you feel better about being gay.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being gay :D

By the way, what IS wrong with being gay?

“ Originally Posted by iceaura
And so are you, in that manner. ”
How would you know when I was celibate?
Are you claiming you can control your sexual attractions ? That you are attracted, or not, as a matter of choice?
Well Ann said so, and married a guy. Why do you think otherwise? Ann didn't say so. What she said was not quite that.


“ So when you call for controlling behavior, which is only partially possible, you call for bad faith - fundamental dishonesty as a way of life ”
When I was celibate for 10 years until I married, I didn't know I was being dishonest. Yet you commend dishonesty in others.


“ - on the part of the Ted Haggards of this world. Behavior not just controlled, but concealed, as a fundamental human motive. ”
I'm glad some people don't kill when they feel anger burning in them. Are you also glad when they conceal murderous anger, pretend it does not exist in them, and take roles in life dependent on maintaining that control agaisnt constant temptation? Would you set up a culture that depended on creating murderous anger in a large percentage of people and having them conceal and control it under constant temptation continually throughout their lives? Or are you just attempting to equate homosexuality and murder as immoralities?


“ u are sure of the love lost with his wife? ”
I was speaking of his gay "lover" -- when they broke up, nobody felt they lost any love. Well, I wasn't speaking of that, was I.


“- true love, back in seminary, and subsequent life of playacting ? ”
How does one play act genuine love? With difficulty - and eventually, in failure, if it involves denying a fundamental erotic orientation. Not a good idea. But the Ted Haggards of this world seem to think they have little choice. Where did they get that destructive notion, do you suppose ?
and finally, a drum roll please.......

" As Edward Abbey, I think it was, put it: fundamentalist religion is a failure of imagination. ”
and Skinwalker tells us we have way too much imagination...LOL Abbey was right.