Hey, I was just minding my business, reading my copy of the Book of Mormon, when I found a statement in 3 Nephi 12:18, that reminded me of something that Jesus said, about not 'one jot nor tittle' being changed in the Law until it was fulfilled. So I looked for the passage & lo & behold, I found that Joe Smith copied almost all of Matthew Chapter 5 word for word from the King James English, check it out here:
Bible:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat005.html#18
BoM:
http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/relg/bookofmormon/TheBookofMormon11-3Nephi/chap13.html

only diff, seems to be verses 1, 2, 29, 30, 46 & 47 (& 47 is copied from another section)

isn't that called plagiarism?

The whole thing is a shameless imitation of the king james style, I'm not surprised that he would copy whole passages. Maybe he thought it would give the BoM more credibility.

For that matter, there's a significant amount of plagerism in the Christian texts, particularly among the Pentateuch books. The Noachian Flood myth in Genesis is nearly a word for word copy of previous myths and stories such as Gilgamesh and The Deluge of earlier cultures.

There cannot be plagiarism of the bible. Anybody or institution can create their own versions of translating biblical text. Any institution can publish the bible, and alter it in anyway with their own doctrine. Catholics have their own version of the holy bible. So do jehovaswitness and moronms.

The Book of Mormon also quotes other scriptural passages from the Bible.

Can't God quote Himself? If He has a message for the Jews, wouldn't it stand to reason that He has the same message for the Nephites...and for us? I see no reason why God can't repeat Himself, especially if that is the only way to give the Nephites the message He gave the Jews.

Truth doesn't change with geography or time period.

The New Testament must be plagiarizing the Old Testament then since the New Testament includes passages from the Old Testament.

The Book of Mormon also quotes other scriptural passages from the Bible.
Can't God quote Himself? If He has a message for ... Truth doesn't change with geography or time period.quote Himself? the BoM is a fictionalized docu-drama, it is not another testament but a pre-sci-fi novel using KJV-type english to give it a millieu of authenticity

nice try

The New Testament must be plagiarizing the Old Testament then since the New Testament includes passages from the Old Testament.the NT states that the OT is the foundation of Christianity, that all the prophecies that foretold Jesus where there, it was the basis of instruction, correction & inspiration

the BoM is the "bible of the left-hand", that the LDS, like all true cults always has; giving lip-service to the Bible, while always holding the left-hand texts up higher.
tell us, what text forms the basis of your core beliefs? do you quote the Bible only in defence of the BoM or do you use extra-biblical sources?

Truth doesn't change with geography or time period.

The written word as it appears in the king james version of the bible did not EXIST until centuries after the book of Mormon was supposedly put in the ground.

The written word as it appears in the king james version of the bible did not EXIST until centuries after the book of Mormon was supposedly put in the ground.

The theory has been advanced that it's possible, even probable, that Joseph Smith consulted the King James version of the Bible when he encountered passages in the Book of Mormon that quoted it, and then used the same language of the KJV in the translation.

Whether or not this theory is true or false, however, I think that God can say the same thing twice to different nations.

Personally, I believe that when the KJV was quoted, Joseph Smith decided to use KJV language (in most cases). But that's JMHO.

The theory has been advanced that it's possible, even probable, that Joseph Smith consulted the King James version of the Bible when he encountered passages in the Book of Mormon that quoted it, and then used the same language of the KJV in the translation.

Whether or not this theory is true or false, however, I think that God can say the same thing twice to different nations.

Personally, I believe that when the KJV was quoted, Joseph Smith decided to use KJV language (in most cases). But that's JMHO.don't you get headaches trying to rationalize every weakness in BoM, if it was any other book or religious text would you try so hard? of course you would, but this time with a microscope to tear it apart, dissect it, find its flaws, errors in logic

be honest with yourself, if not with us, do you really believe what you say or do you need to believe it, so that you won't "lose' your testimony?

The bible itself, whichever version, is far from a "perfect" document. It contradicts itself in many places, contains inaccuracies and mistranslations of older documents.

This shouldn't be a problem for believers, except for fundamentalists, who believe that the bible is literally true in every word.

[ignore Randolfo off]

I get headaches from people like you who think they must tear down others' religious beliefs. And I am being quite honest when I say that I believe that the Book of Mormon is 100% true and authentic.

[/ignore Randolfo on]

[ignore Randolfo off]

I get headaches from people like you who think they must tear down others' religious beliefs. because your religious beliefs tear apart my history, a history that though bloody, is thoroughly Mexican, totally real, there is no make-believe statements, peoples, cultures, you dig in the ground in Mexico, you get Mexican relics, bones, art, ruins, etc...
The BoM is not proven by any, any, let me repeat, ANY shred of evidence. all the himming & hawing won't convince me, pull out the BoM treasures, bones, relics, where are they? can't find them? could it be they don't exist? funny, museums all over the world have Mexican history in all its glory, but not one item of BoM provenance, why is that?
And I am being quite honest when I say that I believe that the Book of Mormon is 100% true and authentic.
[/ignore Randolfo on]& how could that be? 100% true? authentic? you have proof, right? I mean, you're not taking this religio-docu-dramatic novel at face value, are you? that is so rich; I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, only one owner, a revenue maker & very scenic views. Cheap, PM me for details ;)

Randolfo, my testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is a spiritual one, a witness gained from God within my heart and mind after years of reading and studying said book. I applied Moroni's Promise (Moroni 10:3-5) and was answered with assurances that the BoM is true. It wasn't just a "warm fuzzy," though. It's also because I find Mormonism to be extremely and supremely logical. The glory of God is indeed intelligence, and His Church echoes this very much.

Randolfo, my testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is a spiritual one, a witness gained from God within my heart and mind after years of reading and studying said book. I applied Moroni's Promise (Moroni 10:3-5) and was answered with assurances that the BoM is true.
BTW, you didn't answer these questions,
a history that though bloody, is thoroughly Mexican, totally real, there is no make-believe statements, peoples, cultures, you dig in the ground in Mexico, you get Mexican relics, bones, art, ruins, etc...
The BoM is not proven by any, any, let me repeat, ANY shred of evidence. all the himming & hawing won't convince me, pull out the BoM treasures, bones, relics, where are they? can't find them? could it be they don't exist? funny, museums all over the world have Mexican history in all its glory, but not one item of BoM provenance, why is that?hmmmm?

BTW, you didn't answer these questions,

Originally Posted by WildBlueYonder
a history that though bloody, is thoroughly Mexican, totally real, there is no make-believe statements, peoples, cultures, you dig in the ground in Mexico, you get Mexican relics, bones, art, ruins, etc...
The BoM is not proven by any, any, let me repeat, ANY shred of evidence. all the himming & hawing won't convince me, pull out the BoM treasures, bones, relics, where are they? can't find them? could it be they don't exist? funny, museums all over the world have Mexican history in all its glory, but not one item of BoM provenance, why is that?

hmmmm?

WBY, I've told you that the convincing evidence that the Book of Mormon is true, for me at least, has been an internal, spiritual one. The Holy Spirit told me that it is true. You are on the right track when you say that external evidences are not adequate to prove the veracity of the Book of Mormon. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things. But the fact that God told me how to get a testimony of the truth, and then gave me one when I followed His instructions, is reason enough for me to believe.

Hey, I was just minding my business, reading my copy of the Book of Mormon, when I found a statement in 3 Nephi 12:18, that reminded me of something that Jesus said, about not 'one jot nor tittle' being changed in the Law until it was fulfilled. So I looked for the passage & lo & behold, I found that Joe Smith copied almost all of Matthew Chapter 5 word for word from the King James English, check it out here:
Bible:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat005.html#18
BoM:
http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/relg/bookofmormon/TheBookofMormon11-3Nephi/chap13.html

only diff, seems to be verses 1, 2, 29, 30, 46 & 47 (& 47 is copied from another section)

isn't that called plagiarism?
He copied a lot of Isaiah to. The funny thing is that when he "translated" parts of the bible to correct the "errors in translation" he made changes to such sections that appear in the Book of Mormon as well, but appear in it as the King James version, not the Joseph Smith translation.
I also find it odd that the Mormons standard is to use the KJV, not the JST. Maybe there is an intent to divert attention from that very fact.

I also find it odd that the Mormons standard is to use the KJV, not the JST. Maybe there is an intent to divert attention from that very fact.

No there isn't.

Joseph Smith was martyred by a mob before he could finish the JST. We Mormons still use the JST in the footnotes and appendix of our official KJV Bibles, but as the JST was not completed and to maintain compatibility with other religions, the KJV remains the official version.

Tell me about the war between J.S. and the Freemasons.

That has to be the most interesting story of any cult in North America.

How the masons were angry that Smith stole their secret handshakes and satanic rituals.

Tell me about the war between J.S. and the Freemasons.

That has to be the most interesting story of any cult in North America.

How the masons were angry that Smith stole their secret handshakes and satanic rituals.

First of all, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a cult, it's a respectable Christian religion.

Second, there is no satanism incorporated in the temple rituals.

Third, here is are some web sites containing info on freemasonry and Mormonism (I haven't read them and know nothing about the subject, but FAIR tends to have great responses and links to questions about the LDS religion):

Ask the Apologist: Similarities between Masonic and LDS Temple rites (http://www.fairlds.org/apol/misc/misc33.html)

Freemasonry and the Temple (LDSFAQ) (http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=86)

Masonry and the Mormon Temple (Griffith) (http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id107.htm)

Are Mormon Temples and Masonry Linked? (Lindsay) (http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_masons.shtml)

No there isn't.

Joseph Smith was martyred by a mob before he could finish the JST. We Mormons still use the JST in the footnotes and appendix of our official KJV Bibles, but as the JST was not completed and to maintain compatibility with other religions, the KJV remains the official version.Yes you do. Though not finished you can buy the JST with king James in between his changes at any bookstore. The reason you don't actually use it in your church is obvious given that the sections in the BOM are the KJV not the JST.

Its not satanic rituals. Thats propaganda. I'll argue against the Mormon religion as soon as anyone, but you shouldn't use hearsay in order to do it. Yes Jo Smith stole masonic rituals from the masons in creation of his temple rituals. Yes they involve secret handshakes and bizzare ritual. No they are not satanic.

First of all, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a cult, it's a respectable Christian religion.
Since all Christian religions are a Jesus cult you are contradicting yourself. Mormonism along with any Christian religion is a cult.

The fascinating thing here is proponents of one cult arguing that another is "just a cult." All the while, the second cult defends itself with the evidence of "spirituality" or "I know it in my heart." The very same argument of the first cult.

But I agree with Randolfo that BoM is a smack in the face to the very rich history of the Mexican peoples. The Teotihuacan Valley alone is evidence of a complex, high civilization that rivaled other civilizations of pre-bronze antiquity. The Temple of the Sun is a pyramid with more mass than the Great Pyramid in Giza and may have been as grandiose in its day.

Its not satanic rituals. Thats propaganda. I'll argue against the Mormon religion as soon as anyone, but you shouldn't use hearsay in order to do it. Yes Jo Smith stole masonic rituals from the masons in creation of his temple rituals. Yes they involve secret handshakes and bizzare ritual. No they are not satanic.
This is needless apologetic.

Most Christians, once they hear the details of secret Masonic practices and their philosophy, are almost unanimous in their appraisal of Masonry (and all its derivatives, like the Golden Dawn, the OTO, & the Satanic Church) as essentially a persistent underground Satanic cult, in opposition to and corrupting basic Christian belief and practice wherever it spreads.

Masonry & Satanism (http://www.cuttingedge.org/free11.html)

Masonic Ritual Exposed (http://freemasonrywatch.org/)

Christian Opinions (http://www.bibleprobe.com/freemasonry.htm)

Masonic Symbology (http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/ml_intro.htm)
Questions for Christian Masons (http://www.withoneaccord.org/store/SecretSins.html)

Advice for Satanists (http://www.angelfire.com/ab3/Advisor666/)

Personally, however, I don't really care about Masonry. Its one of the milder forms of stupidity on this planet. I would prefer to battle drug dealing and prostitution.

Trilairian, Joseph Smith apparently used the KJV when he was translating those passages of the Book of Mormon that quoted Isaiah, preferring to use the same language of the KJV of his day. It's obvious why he did this--people would be much more likely to accept the Book of Mormon if it was compatible with biblical language. Even so, there are some changes, as the Book of Mormon "plates of brass" (the plates Nephi took from Laban) were an earlier, more reliable record than the King James translation used, and thus more likely to be faithful to the words of the prophets they quoted.

And no, the LDS church is not a cult, unless you are using the word "cult" to simply mean "a religious system of worship," which every religion is.

This is needless apologetic.

Huh? Are you crazy?

No he isn't.

Trilairian, Joseph Smith apparently used the KJV when he was translating those passages of the Book of Mormon that quoted Isaiah, preferring to use the same language of the KJV of his day. It's obvious why he did this--people would be much more likely to accept the Book of Mormon if it was compatible with biblical language. Even so, there are some changes, as the Book of Mormon "plates of brass" (the plates Nephi took from Laban) were an earlier, more reliable record than the King James translation used, and thus more likely to be faithful to the words of the prophets they quoted.

And no, the LDS church is not a cult, unless you are using the word "cult" to simply mean "a religious system of worship," which every religion is.Of course he used it, which disproves that he did it by a scying stone instead, and yes I am fine with that definition. You are a cult.

Of course he used it, which disproves that he did it by a scying stone instead

No it doesn't. He used every means available to him in the translation process. This included the Urim and Thummim as well as the KJV Bible and his own learning.

i believe in the book of morons,

peace

and yes I am fine with that definition. You are a cult.

Just so people understand how you define your terms, and that you believe that all religions are "cults." Otherwise someone might think that Mormons are sacrificing virgins to the Moon Goddess every other Sunday because you call us a "cult." The word is a subjective one unless it is applied equally to all religious systems of worship.

Just so people understand how you define your terms, and that you believe that all religions are "cults." Otherwise someone might think that Mormons are sacrificing virgins to the Moon Goddess every other Sunday because you call us a "cult." The word is a subjective one unless it is applied equally to all religious systems of worship.
I do, so whats your point? You are a cult.

No it doesn't. He used every means available to him in the translation process. This included the Urim and Thummim as well as the KJV Bible and his own learning.
Yes it does. He didn't translate. He copied.

I do, so whats your point? You are a cult.

And you are ugly.

Yes it does. He didn't translate. He copied.

And what did he copy the Book of Mormon from? Other than the Isaiah passages, there are only a few of the other Old Testament prophetic quotes. Where did the vast majority of the Book of Mormon come from, if he copied it?

I do, so whats your point? You are a cult.

Why don't you just call us a "religious system of worship" then? Surely you know the meaning most people take from the word "cult" whenever they hear it. Come on, you KNOW that the word has negative connotations. Otherwise you'd just point your finger at us and say, "You are religious!"

And what did he copy the Book of Mormon from? Other than the Isaiah passages, there are only a few of the other Old Testament prophetic quotes. Where did the vast majority of the Book of Mormon come from, if he copied it?
Right, he copied those sections, not translated them, and the rest came from his imagination.

Why don't you just call us a "religious system of worship" then? Surely you know the meaning most people take from the word "cult" whenever they hear it. Come on, you KNOW that the word has negative connotations. Otherwise you'd just point your finger at us and say, "You are religious!"All religions carry a negative connotation. You are religios. Thats not a compliment. You are a cult. That is equivalent.

Right, he copied those sections, not translated them, and the rest came from his imagination.

No it didn't.

All religions carry a negative connotation. You are religios. Thats not a compliment. You are a cult. That is equivalent.

Yes, but you said you are using the word "cult" only to mean "a religious system of worship." I'm pointing out the fact that the word "cult" usually means a dangerous ego-sect like that of the Branch Davidians or Heaven's Gate, or Jim Jones in Guyana. You would have people believing that Mormons are ready to drink poisoned cool-aid or cut off their genitalia so they can meet up with aliens from the mothership.

There simply is no definition of the word "cult" that is not subjective and negative. It means, "A religion I don't like." Period. Otherwise you are just saying, "Your religion is a religion!" Which doesn't really tell us much.

Right, he copied those sections, not translated them, and the rest came from his imagination.
No it didn't.
So you are saying that he did translate it and got those sections exactly the same as KJV and when he then translated sections of the KJV they came out different. lol
Yes he did.
Changing the sections of the bible for the JST that he had included in the book of Mormon was a blunder.

So you are saying that he did translate it and got those sections exactly the same as KJV and when he then translated sections of the KJV they came out different. lol
Yes he did.
Changing the sections of the bible for the JST that he had included in the book of Mormon was a blunder.

Trilairian, do you have a cite for that? I'm curious to see a specific example of what you're talking about. An unbiased web site, perhaps?

Cult, (n): 1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings. 2. a. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies. b. Now freq. used attrib. by writers on cultic ritual and the archæology of primitive cults. -Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. 1989.

But even if you accept this secondary definition from the OED: "Designating cultural phenomena with a strong, often enduring appeal to a relatively small audience; (also) designating this appeal or audience, or any resultant success; fringe, non-mainstream," Mormonism is a cult.

I think the bolded points are easily descriptive of Mormonism. The problem is this, however, believers in the supernatural like to be able to justify their own superstitions while reserving the right to ridicule those of others. Thus the term "cult" has been used by mainstream religious establishments (like Catholicism and Protestantism) to refer to those beliefs which are counter to their own, and thus untrue. As if their own beliefs are any less superstitious or fucked up.

Anyone who worships some invisble, supernatural being with any organized fashion, belongs to a cult. I don't care how large it is, you're all twisted to believe that superstitious nonsense.

Anyone who worships some invisble, supernatural being with any organized fashion, belongs to a cult. I don't care how large it is, you're all twisted to believe that superstitious nonsense.

As long as people know the way you are defining the word "cult" to encompass all "religious systems that you don't like," not just the Mormons. We LDS people get the "Mormons are a cult!" shoved in our faces all the time, and we don't really appreciate it. The word, however it may be defined respectably in the dictionary, still conjures up images from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom instead of "non-mainstream" religion.

And the people who use the word "cult" against the Mormons usually know EXACTLY what image they are giving to the LDS Church. They want people to believe the worst of us.

Trilairian, do you have a cite for that? I'm curious to see a specific example of what you're talking about. An unbiased web site, perhaps?
I was speaking from having actually compared the texts, but since you asked I was googling for a site and found the answer to my question why you don't use the JST instead of the KJV. It is because you lost a court case over the ownership to the rights againsts the Reorganised Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints. You'd have to buy the book from them, so your church uses a KJV with JST footnotes instead.
I did find a site in googling that gives an example of "the lords prayer" where the BOM is closest to the KJV, and both differ from the JST.
http://loopyturtle.tripod.com/evidence2.html
Book of Mormon:
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
11 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
12 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
13 For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

Bible (Joseph Smith translation)
9 Therefore after this manner shall ye pray, saying,
10 Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
11 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is done in heaven.
12 Give us this day, our daily bread.
13 And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
14 And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
15 For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

Bible (KJV)
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

I also think that the Mormo cult is a "cultural phenomena with a strong, often enduring appeal to a relatively small audience," one that is both fringe and non-mainstream. One that is not only wierd and twisted, but potentially dangerous as well:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy277.html

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/6588-Polygamist_church_purportedly_building_compound_in _Texas.html

http://children.safepassagefoundation.org/archives/2000/04/

Trilairian, all that that proves is that Jesus is the same on the American continent as He is in the Holy Land. Of course He is going to tell people the same message. Different audience, same needs, same speech basically. A motivational speaker who travels from city to city in modern times usually gives the same speech, no matter whether he is in Omaha or Los Angeles or New York. There may be minor variations, but the speech remains the same from city to city.

Trilairian, all that that proves is that Jesus is the same on the American continent as He is in the Holy Land. Of course He is going to tell people the same message. Different audience, same needs, same speech basically. A motivational speaker who travels from city to city in modern times usually gives the same speech, no matter whether he is in Omaha or Los Angeles or New York. There may be minor variations, but the speech remains the same from city to city.
But it was a different message. It proves no such thing.
Look at the "translations" yourself. That was merely one example.

Trilairian, here you go:

Why Don't the Book of Mormon and the JST correct the KJV? (http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/bom_correct_errors.htm)

If Joseph Smith claimed that either the Book of Mormon or the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (JST) were perfect and free from all error, then errors in the King James text that are perpetuated in the new scriptures as well might case doubt on the prophet's work. However, Joseph Smith never made this claim. Instead, the Prophet held the view that the new scriptures corrected some of the mistakes in the original Biblical texts. Furthermore, he specifically stated that he did not correct everything that he could have corrected in the translation process.

South Park's Mormon take was priceless. If you ever get a chance to see it you will chuckle for hours, not at the religion but at ourselves. Joe Smith was a genius and we need more like him. Even though he nearly slipped up he manged to cover his tracks. Managing a split from mainstream Christianity with nothing more than the gift of gab, a couple of props, a good story and voila, Utah. He paved the way for guys like the Reverend Ike and P.T. Barnum for instance. Its Americana. Why fight mainstream religion, just make it suit your needs, and all that without being a King.

The power of persuasion, the evangelist, the used car salesman, the snake oil salesman.... beautiful.

Trilairian, here you go:

Why Don't the Book of Mormon and the JST correct the KJV? (http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/bom_correct_errors.htm)
Thats an answer to the wrong question. Think about it.

Trilairian, the issues you raise are only of passing academic interest to me, as I know already within my heart and soul that Mormonism is true. I know this in a way that cannot be denied, with every fiber of my being. Moroni's Promise is what I recommend for you and for anyone who really wants to know the truth.

I also think that the Mormo cult is a "cultural phenomena with a strong, often enduring appeal to a relatively small audience," one that is both fringe and non-mainstream. One that is not only wierd and twisted, but potentially dangerous as well:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy277.html

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/6588-Polygamist_church_purportedly_building_compound_in _Texas.html

http://children.safepassagefoundation.org/archives/2000/04/

Those references are not to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but rather to fundamentalist apostate Mormons. You're trying to scare people with cites that aren't even relevant to the mainstream LDS Church, which not only doesn't practice polygamy anymore, but excommunicates all polygamists. We are a perfectly respectable religious group.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, right.
As often as he is wrong, he is correct in that. Those polygamist groups are to the mainstream Mormons as Protestants are to Catholics.

Trilairian, the issues you raise are only of passing academic interest to me, as I know already within my heart and soul that Mormonism is true. I know this in a way that cannot be denied, with every fiber of my being. Moroni's Promise is what I recommend for you and for anyone who really wants to know the truth.
The problem is that you don't really know anything in your heart and sole. You know things in your mind and are dilutioned into taking emotions as an authority on reality over the weight of evidence as percieved by your intelect.

Soul, deluded, perceived, intellect. Learn some spelling skills, man!

I use both my intellect and my feelings in determining what is true and what isn't. I find Mormonism to be the most logical, intellectually satisfying religion I've ever come across. If you stop reading the anti-Mormon websites and materials and listen to what the Mormons actually believe, you will find such a logical structure to it as to eliminate all false doctrines to the contrary.

Call it a cult, call it religion, call it fact, call it fiction. It's great some people have such deep-seated convictions concerning the LDS church, however none of them affect the organization in any least possible way. And it will continue to prosper and be the largest and fastest growing church through converts.

We expect persecution, go on heap it upon us. As long as you are sure of what you say, you shouldn't have any reason to relent, right? Fight it, gather yourselves, mock, spit and scoff at it.

But be weary of the Judgements of God in your actions and persecutions--

"lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver." (Mormon 5:24)

Soul, deluded, perceived, intellect. Learn some spelling skills, man!

I use both my intellect and my feelings in determining what is true and what isn't. I find Mormonism to be the most logical, intellectually satisfying religion I've ever come across. If you stop reading the anti-Mormon websites and materials and listen to what the Mormons actually believe, you will find such a logical structure to it as to eliminate all false doctrines to the contrary.
Picking on spelling isn't a valid arguement, and no you don't use your intelect, you use your feelings. I don't make a habit of going to anti-Mormon sites, and I know full well what your doctrine is probably even better than you do. You are speculating, using your feelings to judge both me and what doctrine you consider true. I have studied many religions and I see right through yours.

Call it a cult, call it religion, call it fact, call it fiction. It's great some people have such deep-seated convictions concerning the LDS church, however none of them affect the organization in any least possible way. And it will continue to prosper and be the largest and fastest growing church through converts.

We expect persecution, go on heap it upon us. As long as you are sure of what you say, you shouldn't have any reason to relent, right? Fight it, gather yourselves, mock, spit and scoff at it.

But be weary of the Judgements of God in your actions and persecutions--

"lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver." (Mormon 5:24)
You aren't being persecuted. You are being told that you are wrong and that you like any other religion are a cult. Instead of wielding threats from the BOM over your hurt feelings just deal with the fact that your religion was proven wrong and move on.

The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.

--Joseph Smith

And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?

I declare these things unto the fulfilling of the prophecies. And behold, they shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the everlasting God; and his word shall hiss forth from generation to generation.

-- Moroni
10:26-28

and his word shall hiss forth from generation to generation...

We're just getting started here Tril, is it hard to kick against the pricks?

You have whats called a persecution complex. There are currently no such armies, no such mobs, no such persecution. There is only name calling and missrepresentations the same as you do to me. Am I persecuted?

You're missing the whole point. You don't affect the movement in the slightest degree. You can't interrupt what God has commissioned.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 2:44

What makes this really tragic is that none of you have really grasped the true significance of this link:

Texas Law Enforcement has Mormon group Under surveilance (http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy277.html)

Its called WACO II.

Once again the government is going to gas and incinerate women and children,
in order to 'save' them from diluting the voting power of local Texans,
and possible multiple orgasms, which would make the women crazy,
and might cause local women to rebel and sample a taste of polygamy pie.

Picking on spelling isn't a valid arguement, and no you don't use your intelect, you use your feelings. I don't make a habit of going to anti-Mormon sites, and I know full well what your doctrine is probably even better than you do. You are speculating, using your feelings to judge both me and what doctrine you consider true. I have studied many religions and I see right through yours.

No you don't.

Trilairian is your typical anti-Mormon type. Comes complete with the "I know what you believe better than you do" diatribe that is absolutely stereotypical of those who are critical of Mormonism. Also comes with the "Don't trust your feelings, they will lead you astray" argument, along with the arrogant presumption that "You don't use your intellect," as if he knew all about me and what I believe.

You can't find a more stereotypical anti-Mormon than this guy. A textbook case.

Trilairian is your typical anti-Mormon type. Comes complete with the "I know what you believe better than you do" diatribe that is absolutely stereotypical of those who are critical of Mormonism. Also comes with the "Don't trust your feelings, they will lead you astray" argument, along with the arrogant presumption that "You don't use your intellect," as if he knew all about me and what I believe.

You can't find a more stereotypical anti-Mormon than this guy. A textbook case.
Its not anti-Mormon, its anti Mormonism/anti religion, not anti people, so stop falsly accusing me.

Its not anti-Mormon, its anti Mormonism/anti religion, not anti people, so stop falsly accusing me.

So you don't like being portrayed falsely? Imagine that... :rolleyes:

So you don't like being portrayed falsely? Imagine that... :rolleyes:
And since when have I portrayed you falsely?

You're missing the whole point. You don't affect the movement in the slightest degree. You can't interrupt what God has commissioned.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 2:44
No your missing the point. Your religion was not commissioned by God and whether or not I can effect its movement has no bearing on the fact that your religion is false.

No your missing the point. Your religion was not commissioned by God and whether or not I can effect its movement has no bearing on the fact that your religion is false.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tril, you indoctrinate yourself with lies, and tangle yourself in deceit. Then glutton yourself upon the words campaigned to destroy peoples faith in Christ, and to lie and also deceive.

Your posting is False and Vain.

Coming from an Anti-Christ-- I would expect for you to resist anything good. But at least anyone who knows how stubborn and illogical you are, will also acknowledge that your track record for knowing what you're talking about, is always lacking.

Hence if you can't hold up any kind of feasible debate about Christ on the lame threads you make up;

Why would you ever be able to reason under an actual religious context? In the light of an actual religion? You hate truth, you love lies.

And since when have I portrayed you falsely?

You say I don't use my intellect to discern truth from fiction, when in fact I do. You don't know me, nor do you understand Mormon doctrine. It is insulting for you to falsely accuse me of not using my reasoning abilities just because I disagree with you.

You say I don't use my intellect to discern truth from fiction, when in fact I do. You don't know me, nor do you understand Mormon doctrine. It is insulting for you to falsely accuse me of not using my reasoning abilities just because I disagree with you.

It's in his veins to fight and persecute Christ =p. What else is he supposed to do when he can't find anything you can observe for yourself and plainly discern the discrepancy?

He'll just try to find flaw in your ability to think, when anyone who has read his responses on other threads will already know, the dudes full of it. And he stands as a monument of his own shame.

He'll just try to find flaw in your ability to think, when anyone who has read his responses on other threads will already know, the dudes full of it.You two seem well matched.

You two seem well matched.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

(2 Cor. 13: 1 )

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


(Matt. 18: 20 )

Let's just say we feel an obligation =p

It's in his veins to fight and persecute Christ =p. What else is he supposed to do when he can't find anything you can observe for yourself and plainly discern the discrepancy?

He'll just try to find flaw in your ability to think, when anyone who has read his responses on other threads will already know, the dudes full of it. And he stands as a monument of his own shame.

I've found that all he is capable of doing when disagreeing with me is engaging in a simple "Yes you are!" "No I'm not!" debate. I find it amusing when he continues to do that ad nauseum, as if it were the only coherent response he can think of.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (2 Cor. 13: 1 )
I find it odd that you would quote the reference rather than the source. Is that bigotry, sloppiness, or ignorance?

I find it odd that you would quote the reference rather than the source. Is that bigotry, sloppiness, or ignorance?


Scripture?
New Testament~

Call it whatever you want but be clear ;) no allusions, or multiple choices. We have one that has already entered the discussion! Offended for a word!

I find it odd that you would quote the reference rather than the source. Is that bigotry, sloppiness, or ignorance?Scripture?
New Testament~
Again, I find it odd, but it really doesn't matter all that much.

I really don't know what you're talking about now =p

I really don't know what you're talking about now =p
Got it. Thanks.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

...
Self delution is not a valid substitute for the weight of evidence. You have been proven wrong. I cut the dribble.

Marlin refuted everything already.

You say I don't use my intellect to discern truth from fiction, when in fact I do. You don't know me, nor do you understand Mormon doctrine. It is insulting for you to falsely accuse me of not using my reasoning abilities just because I disagree with you.
It has become apparent that I understand Mormon doctrine better than you do, and you are not using reason. You are using apologistic mental gymnastics to fit the world into your emotional self delusion that you call revalation. I may not know you personally, but already I know you well enough to discern that.

No you don't.

It's in his veins to fight and persecute Christ =p. What else is he supposed to do when he can't find anything you can observe for yourself and plainly discern the discrepancy?

He'll just try to find flaw in your ability to think, when anyone who has read his responses on other threads will already know, the dudes full of it. And he stands as a monument of his own shame.I am not persecuting anyone. If anything your accusations here are persecution of me. This is not a valid arguement. It is a poor substitute that you use since you don't have one.

I've found that all he is capable of doing when disagreeing with me is engaging in a simple "Yes you are!" "No I'm not!" debate. I find it amusing when he continues to do that ad nauseum, as if it were the only coherent response he can think of.
Actually that is all *you* are doing in responce to me. I already disproved your religion.

Marlin refuted everything already.
Neither of you has yet to come up with a valid arguement for any kind of refutation. All you can do is say no no no, cry persecution, cuss me out, and try to be insulting.

What are we arguing about? I was just quoting Joseph Smith and Moroni's Testimony about the book of mormon. That translates into something other than how you perceived it.

What are we supposed to refute? You've only said it's wrong, that's your opinion.

Next?

Self delution is not a valid substitute for the weight of evidence. You have been proven wrong. I cut the dribble.
If I may ask: How did you become such a mental giant in your own mind at such an early age?

No you don't.
I say I do. My research into religions has gone deep especially Mormonism. I bet there is nothing of Mormon doctrine that you know that I do not and plenty that I know that you do not.

Actually that is all *you* are doing in responce to me. I already disproved your religion.

No you didn't. :D

I say I do. My research into religions has gone deep especially Mormonism. I bet there is nothing of Mormon doctrine that you know that I do not and plenty that I know that you do not.

Have you ever felt and recognized the Holy Spirit within you? Has God ever spoken to your heart? Do you know the joy of Christ and all those who follow Him? Have you ever been changed from the "natural man" to a rebirth as a spiritual man? Have you felt the peace of God which "surpasseth understanding" within you? Do you know His voice and how to recognize it? Do you have a pure love towards all mankind?

If not, I'd say you haven't understood at all what Mormonism is about.

No you didn't. :D
Prove it.
Ask me something you think I wouldn't know concerning Mormon doctrine. Perhaps I will tell you more about it than you thought you knew.

!!! Ok.

Why did Lucifer rebel in the pre-mortal council? And what was the pivitol subject of debate that divided the hosts of heaven?

Whereafter Lucifer became Satan, and all the spirits that followed him became his angels and minions.

There are scriptures from LDS standard works, touching upon these subjects that give insight and can answer the questions.

Prove it.
Ask me something you think I wouldn't know concerning Mormon doctrine. Perhaps I will tell you more about it than you thought you knew.

Okay. Tell me how far must your head be up your backside to qualify for Trilarianship?

NONO do mine!! I really wanna see if he can find the info !

NONO do mine!! I really wanna see if he can find the info !

Okay, I'll let him go on that one. The world may never know....

!!! Ok.

Why did Lucifer rebel in the pre-mortal council? And what was the pivitol subject of debate that divided the hosts of heaven?
According to Mormon doctrine he wanted to be the savior instead of Jesus, to sit in the throne of god(Jesus one of the three head gods), and in effort to persuade the spirits to sustain him instead of Jesus he proposed that he would see to it that everyone was saved in lieu of free will. Now here is what you don't know. You have it that this is what was meant when the serpent was cursed to go upon its belly, that it had lost its legs or ability to stand as a metaphor for him not to be born into a mortal body, but according to the genesis story he actually received the curse for having tempted Adam, not for having rebelled in a prior heavenly council!

This is fun, any Catholics want a shot concerning Catholic doctrine? Lutherins?...

Christ said:

I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Luke 10: 18

According to Mormon doctrine he wanted to be the savior instead of Jesus, to sit in the throne of god(Jesus one of the three head gods), and in effort to persuade the spirits to sustain him instead of Jesus he proposed that he would see to it that everyone was saved in lieu of free will.

Correct Good Job!


Now here is what you don't know. You have it that this is what was meant when the serpent was cursed to go upon its belly, that it had lost its legs or ability to stand as a metaphor for him not to be born into a mortal body, but according to the genesis story he actually received the curse for having tempted Adam, not for having rebelled in a prior heavenly council!


That's incorrect.

We recognize that Lucifer was cursed and brought low to the ground, on top of becoming Satan, Perdition, but that we would have power to rule over him. He would bruise our heel (after being brought low to the earth and eating dust) and we would crush his head.

Bruising his head is greater than the power he has to inflict upon us, bruising our heel.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Correct Good Job!



That's incorrect....

No its not. As I said, it would be something you did not know.

Christ said:

I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Luke 10: 18
What a pathetic joke this is. Again you rely on fabricated references rather than the source. Again it results in little but confusion.

What a pathetic joke this is. Again you rely on fabricated references rather than the source. Again it results in little but confusion.

Huh? His reference is correct. What more do you want?

No its not. As I said, it would be something you did not know.

There's a difference between knowing something versus understanding it.

[quoting "A Fish Called Wanda"]

Wanda: You're an ape!
Kevin Kline: Apes don't read philosophy!
Wanda: Yes they do, they just don't understand it!

[/end quote]

Marlin, Nisus, do you know what Midrash is?

Enlighten me.

No its not. As I said, it would be something you did not know.


In that case you'll have to reference something from the Scriptures or the Prophets to back yourself up, because

"You have it that this is what was meant"

is your opinion until otherwise solidified. Or you can do what you usually do and keep your "arcane knowledge" to yourself, but! Having met us thus far, --- there must be grounds for where you conjured this idea.

But like I was saying Lucifer was already cursed after he became Satan, and Perdition, having rebelled against the First Born. This is where he was denied a Second Estate (a body)

This is our doctrine upon the subject.

And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. Abr. 3: 26


BUT! this is where he was initially cursed, from receiving a mortal body.

Abr. 3: 28

And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now test this =p

D&C 131: 1

IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

What are these degrees? We know the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial are three glories, but there are

3 degrees in the Celestial also. What are these degrees?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consequent,

What do you want? i'm citing scriptures? you want context, ? who wrote it? or what? Quit scoffing and vocalize your desires, because I don't understand what you're saying.

Consequent,

What do you want? i'm citing scriptures? you want context, ? who wrote it? or what? I want you to undestand it.
I want you to have some understanding of 2nd Temple Period polemic and prose.
I want you to recognize when the writer is having Jesus quote/paraphrase the Tanach.
I want you to understand the context and meaning of the verse quoted.

In short, I want you to have some inkling of source criticism and to be somewhat more competent than an ignorant Christian apologist spouting received doctrine while pretending that they are thereby saying something of worth. That's what I want, but I'm not hopeful.

OK i will expound upon the idea i'm generating, more, when I reference a scripture.

OK i will expound upon the idea i'm generating, more, when I reference a scripture.Oy veh! I would much prefer that you understand the text more and "expound upon the idea" less. Perhaps you could begin with Luke 10:18 ...

Okay, initially I only cited that scripture, to coincide with what I was saying about Satan rebelling in the pre-mortal existance. Attesting that even Jesus witnessed when Lucifer was cast out from heaven and became fallen, and perdition.

But--it is written, if someone will ask you to go with them 1 mile, you go with them twain!

Here we go!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This scripture refers to the power that we have over the Devil with Faith in Christ. I.E. How we will crush his head, though he bruise our heel.

The seventy that Jesus called were commisioned to act in his name two by two they went. Healing the sick, causing the blind to see and even further casting out devils, who were subject to them through the authority given to them of Jesus, and through faith.

Jesus knew exactly what they meant when they said "even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."

Of course he would know this, He was there when Lucifer was cast out from heaven, before the world was. For this reason he replied yes, ! I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven!

The Devil of all devils, was subject to the power of Christ. If Christ Himself were able to command Lucifer, then why not, can the disciples of Christ, command Satan's minions?

Jesus' statement was predicated upon His own experience.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
Moses 4: 3

It's very likely that after Jesus was elected as the Messiah, that Jesus Himself carried out the decree to cast Lucifer from Heaven, since this was the will of the Father, and the power of the Father was in the Son.

Then Jesus, likely gave power unto Michael--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:7-9

You really haven't a clue, do you? What a shame ... and what a sham!

:bugeye:

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke 16:31

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matt. 13: 13

Back @ u

You really haven't a clue, do you? What a shame ... and what a sham!

It's amazing how often the clueless criticize those "in the know" as clueless themselves. Nisus knows exactly what he is talking about.

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke 16:31

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matt. 13: 13

Back @ uHow very impressive: you know how to cherry-pick verses from the NT ... and you still understand nothing concerning Luke 10:18. What an embarrassment you are. Go back to Luke and try again.

How very impressive: you know how to cherry-pick verses from the NT ... and you still understand nothing concerning Luke 10:18. What an embarrassment you are. Go back to Luke and try again.

How rude. Do you treat everyone who doesn't know as much as you ( :rolleyes: ) with such contempt?

How rude. Do you treat everyone who doesn't know as much as you with such contempt?
Absolutely not. I am, however, contemptuous of pedagogy predecated upon willful ignorance. If someone does not know as much as I know - or as much as you infer I know - fine, but don't then presume to teach/preach.

How very impressive: you know how to cherry-pick verses from the NT ... and you still understand nothing concerning Luke 10:18. What an embarrassment you are. Go back to Luke and try again.


Hahah Tril 2.0-- Witholding the arcane knowledge. If u were so sure of yourself; or that your ideas wouldn't be instantly erradicated, you would have said something by now.

Tril also likes to beat around the bush. Keep on kickin against the pricks.

We'll move on up now from conversation about conversation. And get to the point.

Absolutely not. I am, however, contemptuous of pedagogy predecated upon willful ignorance. If someone does not know as much as I know - or as much as you infer I know - fine, but don't then presume to teach/preach.

1. If we waited until all teachers knew everything before they could teach, then who would be qualified to be teachers?

2. You are assuming that Nisus is willfully ignorant, which implies that he knows better than what he is teaching. How do you know that? Lots of people have incomplete knowledge and yet can competently teach.

3. Nisus has more authority in his pinky finger to teach and preach the word of God than you have in your whole body.

Luke 10:17-18 http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fa/Bible.show/sVerseID/25382/eVerseID/25382

Like a great lightning bolt streaking out of the sky, this brilliant angel, shining with all of his glory—glory given to him by God—was cast to the earth. Where did he fall? He fell right where we are, to the earth, and now we have to deal with him.

John W. Ritenbaugh
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 [18] I have observed Satan fall like lightning: the effect of the mission of the seventy-two is characterized by the Lucan Jesus as a symbolic fall of Satan. As the kingdom of God is gradually being established, evil in all its forms is being defeated; the dominion of Satan over humanity is at an end.
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke10.htm#foot8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Nisus has more authority in his pinky finger to teach and preach the word of God than you have in your whole body.
More correctly, he has precisely the right type of authority "to teach and preach the word of God". Trust me, it's not at all a category in which I have any interest in competing. On the other hand, anyone with the slightest competency would have read Luke 10:18 and recognized an allusion to Isaiah 14:12. You guys are just silly ...

More correctly, he has precisely the right type of authority "to teach and preach the word of God". Trust me, it's not at all a category in which I have any interest in competing. On the other hand, anyone with the slightest competency would have read Luke 10:18 and recognized an allusion to Isaiah 14:12. You guys are just silly ...

I recognized the allusion immediately, actually. So what?

I recognized the allusion immediately, actually.
Of course.

So what?
How predictably sad that you need to ask. What do you think that Isaiah 14:12 is about?

Of course.

You don't believe me? We LDS are taught the scriptures in Seminary classes as youth, and Isaiah 14:12 is one of the references we memorize the location of.

How predictably sad that you need to ask. What do you think that Isaiah 14:12 is about?

How predictably sad that you want me to say "Lucifer, the devil." Here is what the footnote in the LDS edition of the KJV says of Isaiah 14:12:

"HEB Morning star, son of dawn. The ruler of the wicked world (Babylon) is spoken of as Lucifer, the ruler of all wickedness."

Here is what the Old Testament LDS Student Manual has to say about Isaiah 14:12:

(14-14) Isaiah 14:12–15. Who Was “Lucifer, Son of the
Morning”?
Isaiah again used dualism. Chapters 13 and 14
describe the downfall of Babylon, both of Babylon as
an empire and of Babylon as the symbol of the world
(see D&C 133:14). Thus, most scholars think “Lucifer,
son of the morning” is the king of Babylon, probably
Nebuchadnezzar. In the symbolic use of Babylon,
(Babylon as spiritual wickedness and the kingdom of
Satan), Lucifer is Satan. This interpretation is confirmed
in latter-day revelation (see D&C 76:26–8). Satan and
Babylon’s prince (both represented by Lucifer in this
passage) aspire to take kingly glory to themselves,
but in fact will be thrust into hell where there will be
weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Compare Isaiah 13:13–14 with Moses 4:1–4, where
Lucifer’s conditions for saving all men are given. What
adds to the power of the imagery is the fact that the
word congregation (v. 13) is translated by Keil and
Delitzsch as the “assembly of gods” (Commentary,
7:1:312).
In still another example of Isaiah’s beautiful dualism,
even the kings of the world lie in their tombs (house)
in respect (see vv. 18–19), but Babylon’s king was to
be cast aside and trodden under foot. This reward was
literally visited upon the city of the Chaldees, and
though Nebuchadnezzar was certainly buried in great
splendor, there is no grave found for him today in
the ruins of Babylon. Think for a moment of Satan’s
“grave.” Never having received a body, he shall never
have a tomb or monument of any kind, though he was
king and ruler of the great world-wide and history-wide
empire of spiritual Babylon. No wonder the kings of
the earth, who, though wicked in mortality, could still
inherit the telestial kingdom, would marvel at his
demise.

More correctly, he has precisely the right type of authority "to teach and preach the word of God". Trust me, it's not at all a category in which I have any interest in competing. On the other hand, anyone with the slightest competency would have read Luke 10:18 and recognized an allusion to Isaiah 14:12. You guys are just silly ...

After the suave entrance you made, the fanfare and condescending remarks;
I was thinking you'd have a little more than a parallel hahah. That's not even worth talking about. But i'm glad that you can see correlations between the OT and NT.

That's not even worth talking about.
If you - or, to be more correct - if your doctrine says so ... :rolleyes:

Absolutely not. I am, however, contemptuous of pedagogy predecated upon willful ignorance. If someone does not know as much as I know - or as much as you infer I know - fine, but don't then presume to teach/preach.



I find it odd that you would quote the reference rather than the source. Is that bigotry, sloppiness, or ignorance?



What a pathetic joke this is. Again you rely on fabricated references rather than the source. Again it results in little but confusion.



How very impressive: you know how to cherry-pick verses from the NT ... and you still understand nothing concerning Luke 10:18. What an embarrassment you are. Go back to Luke and try again.

You spewed all this before you ever got around to saying anything. A few shots, spanning across a few pages. And when you do finally cite something, it has no impact on the discussion; aside from solidifying what I was saying earlier.

Lucifer fell from heaven.

You're carrying on a disatisfied spirit for naught, except to condescend and flame. Support what your ideas, or at least try to draw the line from:

Isaiah spoke of the fall-----------------------------------so that makes me a bigot, sloppy or ignorant.

Work on your DATA skills first; then freshen up your psuedo-intillectual flamer skills later. Your bark > your bite.

How the masons were angry that Smith stole their secret handshakes and satanic rituals.he didn't steal them, he borrowed.

I'd like to know how he jumped up in degrees so quickly, were there new converts to Mormonism in Masonic authority that helped him rise to the top?

he didn't steal them, he borrowed.

I'd like to know how he jumped up in degrees so quickly, were there new converts to Mormonism in Masonic authority that helped him rise to the top?

Yes, there were. They were called the "Brotherhood of Yeast," for obvious reasons.

It's amazing how often the clueless criticize those "in the know" as clueless themselves. Nisus knows exactly what he is talking about.yeah huh, wink, wink! why is that Marlin? clue us in, why don't you?

I'd like to know if anyone of you out there in cyberspace has one of those teachers' programs that finds plagiarism? it would be interesting to find out what would be the outcome of putting the BoM through it? also, if the BoM is an abridgement, why does it sound so long-winded, re-peats itself, plagiarizes other works, etc..., shouldn’t it be more to the point?

It has a great spiritual message your eyes are blind to...WBY

Yes, there were. They were called the "Brotherhood of Yeast," for obvious reasons.you are too funny, now seriously, were there Mormon Masons that helped him? or were the masons looking for converts too, & tried their luck on a young "up & comer"?

It has a great spiritual message your eyes are blind to...WBYit? you mean the BoM? if it is so spiritual, why did the early LDS never follow any of its dictates, some even now?

no polygamy, God is one

mormon leaders never believed it, except to 'show' that Jo Smith was a prophet, (having wrote the book), it was his only claim to fame (his entrance into prophethood), a book written in error, full of errors

It has a great spiritual message your eyes are blind to...
yet the only thing I see for you is that you are blind, yes it has a message for me, directly from the Bible, of the people being led astray, you are worshipping Baal & Ashtoreth

You're still stuck on your interpretation of that passage of scripture... well wrest with it to your own destruction.

It's still flying way over your head, the whole idea.

It's like Jesus, who pointed the way to eternal life, and people just looked at and analyzed his finger rather than look toward the place he was pointing to. WBY will see this someday and renounce his hypocrisy, but until then, arguing with him is just fruitless, an exercise somewhat like arguing physics with a retarded baby (no insult intended, just an analogy).

You're still stuck on your interpretation of that passage of scripture... mine? you mean Jesus', mine would be that you are a 'goat' (or a wolf in sheeps clothing?)
well wrest with it to your own destruction.I'll "rest" assured in Jesus
It's still flying way over your head, the whole idea.nah, I see your point & it's about a sharp as a wad of tobacco, the only way it would fly over my head is, if someone loaded it in a catapult or cannon & let lose

I'll "rest" assured in Jesus

Translation: After I finish trashing Jesus' doctrine and His true church, I will go to Him and say, "Lord, Lord"--with predictable results....

I'll "rest" assured in Jesus

Draw near with your lips while your heart is far from Him.

Translation: After I finish trashing Jesus' doctrine and His true church, I will go to Him and say, "Lord, Lord"--with predictable results....Marlin, don't do that, why would you trash Jesus' doctrine & church? you are truely lost, poor boy. leave the LDS, it is corrupting you, come to the True Church

Draw near with your lips while your heart is far from Him.& you with your Judas' lips & heart
http://www.awitness.org/biblehtm/mt/mt26.htm
26:47 While he was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and clubs, from the chief priest and elders of the people.

26:48 Now he who betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, "Whoever I kiss, he is the one. Seize him."

26:49 Immediately he came to Jesus, and said, "Hail, Rabbi!" and kissed him.

26:50 Jesus said to him, "Friend, why are you here?" Then they came and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

listen to Jesus, Nisus, before its too late:
http://www.awitness.org/biblehtm/mt/mt13.htm
13:9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

13:10 The disciples came, and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?"

13:11 He answered them, "To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.

13:12 For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have abundance, but whoever doesn't have, from him will be taken away even that which he has.

13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they don't see, and hearing, they don't hear, neither do they understand.

13:14 In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, 'By hearing you will hear, And will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, And will in no way perceive:

13:14 In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, 'By hearing you will hear, And will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, And will in no way perceive:

Sounds exactly like you, mon cherie Randolfo!

Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil.

But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.

Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.

Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil.yes, Nisus, stop being angry with me, for pointing out your iniquities

Good gravy, now WBY is calling himself a prophet of God. :rolleyes:

Good gravy, now WBY is calling himself a prophet of God. :rolleyes:

Haha he affirmed with a passage of scripture from the BoM

And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; wherefore, no man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil.


I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

Haha he affirmed with a passage of scripture from the BoM

ROFLMBO! This is truly funny. :D

mormons are from christian roots. christians are from jewish roots. that being said, both religions should respect the words of the old testament above all others, right?
here is what the old testament says about worshipping ANYTHING except for G-d itself:
Deuteronomy 13............
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God

so all christians are heretics by very nature of their religion. that means you too, mormons!!
nuff said.

Good gravy, now WBY is calling himself a prophet of God. :-rolleyes-:no, not quite, just pointing out your iniquities with your own words, but....

hmmm? a mormon prophet, me?
why thanks for appointing me! yes I am the new mormon prophet, follow me.
WildBlue, the apostle to the mormons, ahhh, my little flock, I will shepherd you in truth

that was easy, thanks. I won't take this responsibility lightly, remember, it I use the “rod” of harsh words, it’s for your own good

do I get a robe or something? secret handshake? holy underwear?

do I get a robe or something? secret handshake? holy underwear?

How about an "I'm With Stupid" t-shirt for your wife?


Just kidding of course, WBY, you know I love you.

mormons are from christian roots. christians are from jewish roots. that being said, both religions should respect the words of the old testament above all others, right?
here is what the old testament says about worshipping ANYTHING except for G-d itself:
Deuteronomy 13............
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God

so all christians are heretics by very nature of their religion. that means you too, mormons!!
nuff said.

Mormons and non-LDS Christians *do* worship the God of Israel, thus we are *not* heretics by the Old Testament's standards.

no, not quite, just pointing out your iniquities with your own words, but....

hmmm? a mormon prophet, me?
why thanks for appointing me! yes I am the new mormon prophet, follow me.
WildBlue, the apostle to the mormons, ahhh, my little flock, I will shepherd you in truth

that was easy, thanks. I won't take this responsibility lightly, remember, it I use the “rod” of harsh words, it’s for your own good

do I get a robe or something? secret handshake? holy underwear?

Good thing the Lord judges us according to our works, but by your standards WBY we'd all be condemned to Hell!

U don't just condemn one person, you condemn 11 million + people, that's quite pompous of you. Whatever your perception of our religious beliefs, I don't thing it merits your persecutions and condemnations. Or that you need to waste so much of your time and energy mocking and pointing your finger...

...saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building.

And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.

How about an "I'm With Stupid" t-shirt for your wife?


Just kidding of course, WBY, you know I love you.I know, hey? funny, I thought you were my wife, "Honey! are you in the other room typing? "

U don't just condemn one person, you condemn 11 million + people, that's quite pompous of you. actually, let me answer in 2 ways;
1) I've just been appointed mormon prophet, so yes, I think I've earned the right to be pompous &
2) did not earlier Mormon prophets, condemn all non-LDS to same?
Whatever your perception of our religious beliefs, I don't thing it merits your persecutions and condemnations.hmmm? didn't the LDS start out doing the same? aren't those current LDS beliefs, that only LDS are right, all others wrong? or is the current 'charm offensive' all smiles, we're all Christians, hug each other, now making all mormons less-contentious? minus you & Marlin of course
Or that you need to waste so much of your time and energy mocking and pointing your finger...I love all the time I send with you guys, why would it be a waste of time? because we don't agree? what? you want me to quit? stop writing, stop posting? you first!

actually, let me answer in 2 ways;
1) I've just been appointed mormon prophet, so yes, I think I've earned the right to be pompous &
2) did not earlier Mormon prophets, condemn all non-LDS to same?
hmmm? didn't the LDS start out doing the same? aren't those current LDS beliefs, that only LDS are right, all others wrong? or is the current 'charm offensive' all smiles, we're all Christians, hug each other, now making all mormons less-contentious? minus you & Marlin of course
I love all the time I send with you guys, why would it be a waste of time? because we don't agree? what? you want me to quit? stop writing, stop posting? you first!


Well it would be nice if for once you had some substance to what you spoke about, and not just misinterpretation and mockery.

For example everything you just said has no source at all, or bearing in any kind of argumentative context. It's all your flustered opinion, and who knows the true inspiration for why you truly detest our church; but it's becoming quite obvious it's nothing that we as a people have done.

You can keep writing all you want, but if you actually think about what you say before you type it and post it, it might be to you favor and hinder you from being wrong, yet again.

Well it would be nice if for once you had some substance to what you spoke about, and not just misinterpretation and mockery.you need substance, here's a ton against the BoM;
1) DNA,
2) linguistics,
3) botany,
4) fauna &
5) archeological evidence.
Lets start there
For example everything you just said has no source at all, or bearing in any kind of argumentative context. It's all your flustered opinion, so, you're denying that the early LDS condemned all other churches & may still be doing so, while smiling brightly
and who knows the true inspiration for why you truly detest our church; but it's becoming quite obvious it's nothing that we as a people have done.detest, is too strong of a word, God might detest the LDS church for corrupting His truth, losing people in the maze of obstification, making it hard to find salvation,
me, as a Mexican Christian, just won't let you get away with lies & if you think the BoM is true, why hasn't your church lived by it? They only defend it, because it "proves" Joseph Smith a "prophet", otherwise they would have to concede it’s a poor book on history, a novel
You can keep writing all you want, why thank you, I will
but if you actually think about what you say before you type it and post it, it might be to you favor actually, I do give it a lot of thought, its just that we don't see LDS through the same eyes
and hinder you from being wrong, yet again.
I was wrong? me, never, tell me where, why don't you?

Mormons and non-LDS Christians *do* worship the God of Israel, thus we are *not* heretics by the Old Testament's standards.


wrong. christians of all flavors, shapes and sizes worship Jesus Christ, which means that their religions are based on idolatry. anytime you pray through a channel to G-d, you are engaging in idolatry. plain and simple.

heretics, the lot of them. :m:

wrong. christians of all flavors, shapes and sizes worship Jesus Christ, which means that their religions are based on idolatry. anytime you pray through a channel to G-d, you are engaging in idolatry. plain and simple.

heretics, the lot of them. :m:

Jesus Christ just happens to be the same entity as Jehovah. The pre-mortal Christ is the God of the Old Testament, thus all Christians who worship Christ are in fact worshiping Jehovah.

you need substance, here's a ton against the BoM;
1) DNA,
2) linguistics,
3) botany,
4) fauna &
5) archeological evidence.
Lets start there

Sigh.

WBY: I demand proofs X, Y and Z.

Mormons: Here are proofs X, Y and Z.

WBY: :silence:

1 week later:

WBY: I demand proofs X, Y and Z.

Looking back through this thread, it seems clear that BoM is true only because you believe it to be. None of the evidence exists that WBY mentioned above to demonstrate BoM is true, all of the evidence above exists to demonstrate it isn't.

So in the end, you have the same exact argument that believers in UFOs, channeling, ghosts, Santa Clause, PSI, and alien astronauts and abductions: "I believe, therefore it is true."

Jesus Christ just happens to be the same entity as Jehovah. The pre-mortal Christ is the God of the Old Testament, thus all Christians who worship Christ are in fact worshiping Jehovah.

wrong. Jesus Christ was just a man who had some good advice to people about how to be good jews. period.

there is nothing that was not written by the members of the group he gathered around himself during life, that says anything about him being G-d. Jehovah is NOT G-d. Jehovah is a bastardization of a few letter used to symbolize G-d.

jesus christ was a great man, but there is NO EVIDENCE in the bible that he is one and the same with G-d.

i believe however, that this topic belongs in another thread, and i apologize to all, because i have polluted this thread with my off topic rantings.
Marlin, if you care to continue with this conversation, create a new thread and i will follow your lead. :)

Marlin, if you care to continue with this conversation, create a new thread and i will follow your lead.

To tell you the truth, I am tired of debating religion, so I am going to take some time away from SciForums and let you guys continue the debates without me.

Carry on! :)

score one for the good guys!!!
ahem.....ok back to topic?

oh my.. I could go on about the mormons. I used to be one.I was only 8, and it not by choice. Then I realized they were a cult. There are so many wild and crazy things that the mormons believe that it is ridiculous. First of all, Mormons believe that one day those who make it to the first level of heaven (the celestial kingdom) with become gods of their own world, just like the current god they worship. That is the main goal in Mormonism. That right there takes them out of the christian mainstream into the realm of what is considered cult practice. Joseph Smith has stated that there is no other book (bible included) that is as accurate a holy text as the BoM. The Mormons believe that there were many gods before gods. Basically they believe in eternal families (including God who has a wife..). They don't say this stuff to anyone, but it is there. They are a polytheistic religion, although they only pray to one god.

there is not one shred of proof for any of the civilizations in the BoM. Im sure you guys have covered this by page 9, but missionaries like to state that the smithsonian uses the BoM in archeological research. Which is of course, a lie.

"The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the Book."

a quote from a letter from the Smithsonian institute regarding the Mormons claim.

this thread is probably dead by now, but I wanted to speak my mind about this. There are plenty of online rescources that use actual 'facts' ans 'science' to refut the BoM.

oh my.. I could go on about the mormons. I used to be one.I was only 8, and it not by choice. Then I realized they were a cult. Hi rounder, welcome to our merry band of men, swashbucklers, pirates, heroes the lot of us, .. ok, ok, maybe a few nerds too
:sheepish grin:

a quote from a letter from the Smithsonian institute regarding the Mormons claim.funny, huh? that the SI would need to publish a letter to what LDS were (are) saying, to refute it, only stopped by mormon political pressure
this thread is probably dead by now, but I wanted to speak my mind about this. There are plenty of online rescources that use actual 'facts' ans 'science' to refut the BoM.not quite dead, just in resting phase

Sigh.

WBY: I demand proofs X, Y and Z.

Mormons: Here are proofs X, Y and Z.

WBY: :silence:

1 week later:

WBY: I demand proofs X, Y and Z.shucks, I must have missed that Nephite village discovered in the wilds of Alaska, or that vast battle plain, littered with rusting swords, shields, & the bones of fallen Laminites thar abouts Palmyra, or how about that major BoM exhibit at the SI? mighthy fine collection, next time you visit, send photos

i also wanted to say, that not everything mormon is bad, They really focus on the family and although their beliefs are far outside the norm, they do have a welfare program that helps those less fortunate members in times of need. They have their own food, etc.

This is of course a way to keep members attached to the church.

i also wanted to say, that not everything mormon is bad, They really focus on the family and although their beliefs are far outside the norm, they do have a welfare program that helps those less fortunate members in times of need. They have their own food, etc.they also help others, 2 of my maternal uncles worked in Utah orchards during the Depression
This is of course a way to keep members attached to the church.doesn't always help, they stayed Catholic till their dying day.

the only person in my family that became mormon, was some great-great-granduncle from Chihuahua, BTW he was a polygamist (2 wives), so there may be several relatives still out there

Hey, I was just minding my business, reading my copy of the Book of Mormon, when I found a statement in 3 Nephi 12:18, that reminded me of something that Jesus said, about not 'one jot nor tittle' being changed in the Law until it was fulfilled. So I looked for the passage & lo & behold, I found that Joe Smith copied almost all of Matthew Chapter 5 word for word from the King James English, check it out here:
Bible:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat005.html#18
BoM:
http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/relg/bookofmormon/TheBookofMormon11-3Nephi/chap13.html

only diff, seems to be verses 1, 2, 29, 30, 46 & 47 (& 47 is copied from another section)

isn't that called plagiarism?

The book of Mormon is a part of the bible according to Mormons. Well in the Bible it repeats everything anyway. What's the big deal?

The book of Mormon is a part of the bible according to Mormons.oh? but can they prove that? muslims say the quran is the completion of the Bible, minus any corruptions, errors etc.. & it’s the "final edition" by the "last" prophet circa 622 AD, (sorry, that leaves Joe Smith out)Well in the Bible it repeats everything anyway. What's the big deal?so any counterfeit will do? L. Ron Hubbard has a "great" list of books that should sub for the BoM, WoW, BoA, D&C; "Battlefield Earth" should do, oh & it comes with a great set of characters: like John Travolta, Barry Pepper, Forest Whitaker.
& there's always Tom Cruise, hehehehe

WBY:
oh? but can they prove that?

Kerry:
What would constitute proof? I have found that when one says PROVE it to me, they are of a mind to NOT let anything persuade them, or even to look very carefully either........

WBY:
oh? but can they prove that?they have over 1 billion followers, the perfect law (sharia), the perfect book (quran), the perfect prophet (Mohammad), rule about 50 countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Countries
what more proof do you need?
Kerry:
What would constitute proof? I have found that when one says PROVE it to me, they are of a mind to NOT let anything persuade them, or even to look very carefully either........ahhh, you wouldn't be talking about yourself, now would you?

I take it you are not willing to discuss what it would take for *you* personally to have proof of something? Too subjective is it? Are you going to engage me in conversation, or chase yourself down rabbit trails that lead nowhere, and then congratulate yourself on being so very clever.........

WBY