Now, I'm not saying I believe outright, anything that Mr. Lazar has claimed. However, I've been wondering what it is, specifically, that has labelled him to be a fruad?

- I understand that his education, and some of his employment background, has been unable to be verified. However, he did pocess a internal phone book from Los Alomos with his name in it. He also has a check stub, or W2 form with his name, address, and pay amount from the Department of the Navy.


He obviously must have had some type of an education, to gain employment as a scientist with the Naval Dept to be employed as a civilian scientist at Area 51, and/or Los Alomos Laboratories. Is it too far to speculate that his records could have been erased?

He could very well have been used as a disinformation source.

I don't think there's any dispute that he worked at Area 51.

He obviously knew the schedule of when some test flights of some unusual aircraft were being run as he brought along associates to view these tests on more than one occasion.

I'm also aware of his arrest, which I suspect has damaged his credibility as much as anything. However, unless I'm unaware of some things, he was really only guilty of setting up a security system for a Nevada Brothel. He had no other involvement in this line of business. In addition, this is Nevada. Where some counties, this line of business is perfectly legal. I have a hard time discrediting his claims based on this unfortunate incident.

This is a serious question.

Why is his story considered fruadulant?

Check this out and decide for yourself:


http://www.serve.com/mahood/lazar/lazarmn.htm

He claims to have an advanced degree in physics, yet in many interviews he makes freshman level errors.

If he worked at area 51, I think his job was to clean the toilets. This guy strikes me as a wannabe that never finished college.

Bob Lazer is a perfect example of why NO efforts or monies should be expended towards the study of UFO’s and other such pseudoscience. The amount of effort others have had to go through just to show that his claims are nonsense is a travesty to science and an insult to intelligence.

Death to UFOlogy! Death to Pseudoscience!

Originally posted by (Q)
The amount of effort others have had to go through just to show that his claims are nonsense is a travesty to science and an insult to intelligence.

Q, we finally agree on something.

Aren't you glad that people like me are willing to do this for free?

Of course, I never said that he didn't work there. I only said that his job was to clean the toilets; this may have included the alien's toilets. :D

No, Its people like him (if he is lieing), that give ufoology a bad name ....and give people more resons not to look at REAL evidence etc....

LONG LIVE UFOLOGY

Ives, In response to your link,

I've actually spoken directly to this Mahood guy, and after briefly viewing more of his incosistency's with Lazar's story, I think he's reaching to discredit Lazar as much as Lazar could be fabricating the entire story.

FACTS:

Lazar worked at Los Alomos.

Lazar's records at Los Alomos have mysteriously disappeared.

Lazar worked for the Dept. of Navy at the top secret Area 51 base.

Lazar knew when certain unusual test flights were being tested.


Now, what exactly is it that people are questioning? I'm not just going to fall in with the company line, that if the majority think he's a fruad, he must be. I'd like to hear some specific examples.

IMO, Mr. Mahood could just as well be purposely attempting to discredit Lazar for his own reasons. He didn't convince me Lazar's a fruad in 1995, and he hasn't yet. If that's all you people have, then I have no other option but to keep this door open.

Please, I'd like some specifics.

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
He claims to have an advanced degree in physics, yet in many interviews he makes freshman level errors.

This is a very generalized comment.

Some examples please.

As much as a proponent needs to do to remain credible, a skeptic needs to provide adequate information to discredit another. I have yet to hear anything that removes Lazar's story from the collection of data.

Originally posted by (Q)
Bob Lazer is a perfect example of why NO efforts or monies should be expended towards the study of UFO’s and other such pseudoscience. The amount of effort others have had to go through just to show that his claims are nonsense is a travesty to science and an insult to intelligence.

Death to UFOlogy! Death to Pseudoscience!

You, my friend, are not worth the effort.

Originally posted by VRob

Lazar's records at Los Alomos have mysteriously disappeared.



Whoa there! using the word 'mysteriously' is loading the issue, somewhat! They can't find his employment records, and the way I seem to recall it, was because he worked for a company that was contracted to Los Alamos, and was never employed directly. I'd not heard of the check stub, although a single one does not constitute employment. It could have been reimbursement for ruining his shoes while unblocking the plumbing. Do we know what the amount was on said stub?

I've worked for some pretty big companies, and they've lost my records before. No mystery, it just happens. Just for the record, while I have worked in the aerospace industry, I never reverse engineered alien spacecraft. So when my records went missing, it was just someone putting them in the wrong drawer of the filing cabinet, no conspiracy needed. Maybe, someday, they'll discover Bob's employment records, alongside his requisition form for a new broom, .....

Phlogistian,

I understand that records can be lost. However, I find it difficult to believe his education AND employment records can all suddenly disappear at the same time. I just don't believe in coincedences like these.


So, what your saying then, is the fact that he was ever employed at Area51 is debateable?

- He does have a check stub from the Dept of the Navy.

- If he never worked out at Area51, then how did he know of at least 2 test flights, of very inusual aircraft? Now, I'm not saying this is absolute proof, but it does provide some collaborating evidence.

In addition, CalTech & MIT are very closely tied to the military &/or defense contracts. I do not consider it a reach for those institutions to remove the Records of Mr. Lazar. Once again I'll state, I don't think he'd be employed (or contracted too), Los Alomos or the Dept of Navy without some valid credentials. ie: an education.

Please, I'd like some specifics.

The specifics are in the link Ives provided. If you are unable to identify and understand those specifics, then you are unable to intelligently question the specifics.

You, my friend, are not worth the effort.

I keep hearing that from gullible believers who can’t stand someone raining on their fantasy parades.

I also doubt you are able to make 'an effort.'

:D

The check stub was for about $400. I think there is only one.

How did the government manage to remove his picture and name from all of the Cal Tech year books? Even if he never showed up for pictures, the name still appears. Also, no one at Cal Tech knows him. Why can't he produce one friend from college?

QED.

This is what motivates my idea that he held some nominal position at 51: He knew when and where to see UFO's. Quite a few witnesses and some very impressive film seem to corroborate this story.

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
This is what motivates my idea that he held some nominal position at 51: He knew when and where to see UFO's. Quite a few witnesses and some very impressive film seem to corroborate this story.

Ivan,

I agree. I haven't come to any conclusion on his story. I just find the reasons he's now considered a fruad, to be a little lacking.

He hasn't attempted to turn his story into a Huge money making machine.

I can't answer his education inconsistencies. But, I think for anyone to get a position at Los Alomos in a tech job, or a phisicist position, has to have some type of an education. Not to mention a position at a high security military base.

The position I find myself leaning the most towards, is that he was given some disinformation. Don't have a whole lot to back this up with, except that I think he's basically telling the truth as far as he sees it.

I also have grown more suspect of Stanton Friedman as the years go on. He has been one of the loudest critics of Lazar, and I've recently questioned many of his positions and motives lately.

Anyways, thanks for the responses. As far as I'm concerned, this just goes into the ???? category. I can neither confirm, nor deny this story. Unfortunately, it's where most of my data ends up.

Interesting comments in this thread. I'm interested in your reasons for your comments about Friedman; I've actually grown to like the guy recently. I confess that the first few times I saw him on TV, he had a certain wild-eyed look that threw me off. I was also confused about the exact nature of his educational background.

You have to admit he is a dogged researcher. I think it is too bad that he has spent so much time on MJ12, since some of his analysis of UFO is quite good. He is far too committed to the ETH for my comfort, though.

I forgot I was also going to comment on Lazar. My position on him is to think about him as little as possible. Following someone like Lazar is a path to nowhere.

How is the study of UFOs advanced by his presence? The most we can do is engage in speculation as to whether he is a simple fraud, and not a very good one, or a disinformation plant.

I've heard theories like, "The disinformation people need to take in people with suspect backgrounds, so that later, when they spill the beans, the truth will be coming from an unreliable source."

While there is a certain crazy logic to this, how would we ever figure this out? I think there are far more productive activities that might advance knowledge regarding UFOs than feeding Lazar's ego.

Just my two cent's worth.

Originally posted by VRob
Phlogistian,

I understand that records can be lost. However, I find it difficult to believe his education AND employment records can all suddenly disappear at the same time. I just don't believe in coincedences like these.



I think the coincidence wrt his education and his employment is that both are exaggerated, nothing sinister.

He has one check stub, like I said that can be explained in a few ways, if it's genuine.

His education, well, he can't provide the name of a single college buddy. Nobody has come forward. There are NO records, in yearbooks, nothing. A professor he claims to have taken lectures from was actually a teacher from his High School. To me, this indicates he never got to college, and therefore probably had a mid-technical role at Area-51 at best. He may therefore have picked up some information on flights, and seem some strange happenings, but it's a hell of a leap to reverse engineering alien spacecraft!

It's been fifteen years since I left left college, and I can remember people, both fellow students and academics, that I could talk to to verify my attendance, btw. One of the record keeping mishaps that happend to me, was that I had to prove my academic qualifications to an employer I'd worked for some years previously, before commencing a new role with them. They were supposed to keep that stuff on file for seven years, but had lost all the records in just over four. I found the relevant certificates, presented them, and started the job. You keep hold of proof of academic qualifications, I just don't understand how Lazaar could have lost his!

That is a valid observation. Everyone who walks the stage at a university gets a degree in hand. Why hasn't Lazar produced his, and if he has why has no one I've heard mention it before?

Originally posted by Ives
Interesting comments in this thread. I'm interested in your reasons for your comments about Friedman; I've actually grown to like the guy recently.

My comments?

We don't always see eye to eye, but I think highly of Friedman...I think.

I find it hard listening to people discredit others, Like Bob Lazar and yet they offer no resume of their own to examine their personal credentials.


And Stanton Friedman is thee main reason I follow this soon to be science.


QUESTION: Could you reveal some of your professors at M.I.T. and Cal-Tech?
LAZAR: Yeah, if you want. I don't have a list of them here. Dr. Duxler I think was one of them. And Hohsfield was another.

QUESTION: Hohsfield?

LAZAR: Hohsfield. H-O-H-S-F-I-E-L-D, or something along those lines.

QUESTION: Would he remember you?

LAZAR: Oh, yeah. Hohsfield I know will.

QUESTION: These are at M.I.T. or Cal-Tech?

LAZAR: Hohsfield was at M.I.T. Duxler was at Cal-Tech.

All these claims could not be verified by stanton Friedman though

Kooks are still kooks regardless of their credentials.

Yes, kooks are kooks. But no one is a kook simply for having an interest in, and researching UFOs. The Lazar situation is simply too murky to ever truly figure out, like Roswell. I don't find contemplating him productive.

I have been tring to understand Lizzar and found that when he talks about what he saw and a few other things he is quite accurate with some of his facts. In other words he knows things that are thought to be untrue but research shows to be dead right. (Plz excuse the lack of details but this could become very long if I tried)

However his story takes a nose dive at the point were he gives his thearies. He mentions that "little is known" when talking about what they have been able to reverse engenier. lol, I can see why. It all sounds sooo crazy simply because, it is. That they are not in anyway able to duplicate this equipment and what it can do is testamony to the fact that they are way off in their understand of it.

The big hipe of this guy is not in what he thinks, but what he saw. Believe it or not, many things he saw have been duplicated if you read thru the correct expairmants by scientists at one point or another. But in every case they through in their own ideas and often it all crashes and can't even be repeated.

I have been tring to understand Lizzar

Do you mean 'Lazar'?

and found that when he talks about what he saw and a few other things he is quite accurate with some of his facts.

He has presented no facts, just self aggrandising assertions.

In other words he knows things that are thought to be untrue but research shows to be dead right. (Plz excuse the lack of details but this could become very long if I tried)

No, please, I insist on the details. If you are going to resurrect a thread, you'd better have a reason to, and that means details. Nothing Lazar has stated has been proven true, not even his own educational background, or employment status. He doesn't seem to like talking about the whorehouse he had shares in for some reason, when it comes to former methods of income, just the Are51 crap. Why is that, I wonder?

However his story takes a nose dive at the point were he gives his thearies. He mentions that "little is known" when talking about what they have been able to reverse engenier. lol, I can see why. It all sounds sooo crazy simply because, it is. That they are not in anyway able to duplicate this equipment and what it can do is testamony to the fact that they are way off in their understand of it.

Lazar doesn't understand it because he never studied physics to any great level.

The big hipe of this guy is not in what he thinks, but what he saw. Believe it or not, many things he saw have been duplicated if you read thru the correct expairmants by scientists at one point or another. But in every case they through in their own ideas and often it all crashes and can't even be repeated.

All Lazar saw was the inside of a broom closet and lots of porcelain.

I just know about him from the Clutch song.

I have plans for the future, guess they're futuristic plans.
Move out west and buy some desert lands.
Maybe up North, just past Alaska.
You know nothing of this if they ask you.
Red Rover, Red Rover, Bob Lazar's coming over.
So honey clear the airstrip and light up that stove.
By Jove, I think it's started. Oh yeah,
Escape From the Prison Planet.

Do you mean 'Lazar'?



He has presented no facts, just self aggrandising assertions.



No, please, I insist on the details. If you are going to resurrect a thread, you'd better have a reason to, and that means details. Nothing Lazar has stated has been proven true, not even his own educational background, or employment status. He doesn't seem to like talking about the whorehouse he had shares in for some reason, when it comes to former methods of income, just the Are51 crap. Why is that, I wonder?



Lazar doesn't understand it because he never studied physics to any great level.



All Lazar saw was the inside of a broom closet and lots of porcelain.

Yes, your right. I did mean Lazar. It has been awhile sence I used his name. It seems you know this guy is a fruad. So well so in fact, that I doubt I could say much to change your mind.

I do agree with you in part, the guy has little grounds to claim to be an expert. Much of what he said is shot full of holes by very simple inspection that proves he should not get treated as anything but a fanatic. And maybe even a fanatic craving public attention.

But this does not change the fact that some of his staments are true. Its odd that I would need to stand up for the man as I find most of what he says as not worth anyones time. Still the man can name people on the Area 51 base - yes I know that is not proof but it should not be ignored. He had correct information about the activites of the base with time tables and the like -still I suppose he could have gotten it by some other means. His description of the technology has precidence with experiments that, done later, showed they were quite possible by the russian government. (However I can't remember the link off the top of my head) and last I read a document that claimed to be related to the intel the Area 51 project had on alien involvent on this soloar system and its history. The doc is WILD! and I can not vouch for any of it, but still, Lazar had said he read them and then gave a correct account of a few points of their content. If you wish I can recite what they had to say. Anyway, I find it hard to ask for more proof than this, how much more would he need to prove he was in fact there?

Perhaps these are not fact in your sees. That is fine with me. I care not to defend the man much due to the fact that if anyone should start to realy listen to the man then they will be lead astray by ... well, I don't think I need to tell you.

If you wish to contend all the points I mentioned above and that I should "pove" them all, then I should ask you to please do your homework before posting here. Also, if you should want to know what the claims made in the Area 51 reports are, feel free to ask, they are so outrages that I would be happy to repeat them. :)

If any of what Bob Lazar said was true about captured so-called flying saucers and etc. kept secretly in Area 51, then where is all of the 'reverse engineering' at? We're still flying jets you know. Nothing new there.

If any of what Bob Lazar said was true about captured so-called flying saucers and etc. kept secretly in Area 51, then where is all of the 'reverse engineering' at? We're still flying jets you know. Nothing new there.

Something tells me that the military would not handover the means of flight these craft take even if they could duplicate it. The gradient is off. It is quite clear that it is not like our own researchers are on the verg of discovering this themselves. How much does the Military have? Something tells me from the crazy ideas of Lazar that they have less than you would think.

The "Vedas" talking about ... and flying machines before the flood, and a nuclear weapon so powerful it wasn't even meant to be used against a "terrestrial" foe.
In the hands of "some fanatic" it knocked this world out of it's orbit and left it crippled and tilted.....the secondary effect of which was the worldwide flood.


hmmm... that is what was suppost to have happend to Atlantis... Odd, it even uses simular descriptions of some of the accounts... You say that is in the Vedas?

-If there was an advanced form of life "visiting" Earth.....
That was so advanced they could travel as a thought, what use would they even have for what we call "technology"?

You seem to have a high opinion of them. What makes you think they are so mentaly or spiritualy (or what ever) powerful that someone around here would be awe struck? No where have I ever seen anything to indecate that these flying saucers and the people flying them are any better than someone you could find walking down one of our streets. On the part about WHY they would come, well, its true, I don't think they came here for Coca Cola or to see our movies or even for our pocket watch technology.

-And also.....do you think they would leave something, some wrecked piece of unnecessary "hardware" lying around for man to find and reverse engineer when all of our history speaks to the fact they have so successfully hidden themselves from humanity's view since the beginning of this present world?

Okay, thats just funny. All these UFO accounts, recordings in our history, what is begining to look reputable as evidence that our military has a UFO and so on and you seem to think they are so compatent? No, if they were that good then the anti-UFO speackers would have a leg to stand on. And we would not be having this conversation.

The short version without giving too much away, is some of you reading this post are from another world, and you don't even know it.

lol. (<-- not to be taken as posative or negative. Its just that that is a funny thing to imply)


Earth is a world "below" heaven.

I think that with all of our digging and subteranian work that this statement in a fact! Unless someone world still like to grab a shovel and keep digging.


To quote a soundbite from a Star Trek movie....."The Final Frontier"

Kirk asks something of a dangerous entity that has contacted Spock's long lost brother posing as God.
It has been imprisoned on a world isolated from all others by a specially constructed barrier at the center of the universe.

When it asks Kirk to "Bring the ship closer".......
He asks a very interesting question, that hints at exactly what I am saying here...

"What need does "God" have of a Starship?"

Dido

He claims to have an advanced degree in physics, yet in many interviews he makes freshman level errors.

If he worked at area 51, I think his job was to clean the toilets. This guy strikes me as a wannabe that never finished college.

I think that you will find that half the physicists who have advanced degrees will make the same errors. They certainly do around here.

TheVisitor, I think that your "Lord" is like a spoiled two-year old.

I suppose the best UFO testimony Ive yet seen is that of Col. Philip Corso in his book The Day After Roswell.

He wrote this extremely detailed book when he was 82, a year before he died in 1998. He had nothing to gain by writing it. This together with the fact that he had solid credentials makes a very compelling case.

He was chief of the army's Foreign Technology Division in the early 60s, and was a member of Eisenhower's National Security Council before that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_J._Corso

Lazar is sczhizophrenic, anyone can tell. All the UFO stuff is rubbish.

Something tells me that the military would not handover the means of flight these craft take even if they could duplicate it. The gradient is off. It is quite clear that it is not like our own researchers are on the verg of discovering this themselves. How much does the Military have? Something tells me from the crazy ideas of Lazar that they have less than you would think.



hmmm... that is what was suppost to have happend to Atlantis... Odd, it even uses simular descriptions of some of the accounts... You say that is in the Vedas?



You seem to have a high opinion of them. What makes you think they are so mentaly or spiritualy (or what ever) powerful that someone around here would be awe struck? No where have I ever seen anything to indecate that these flying saucers and the people flying them are any better than someone you could find walking down one of our streets. On the part about WHY they would come, well, its true, I don't think they came here for Coca Cola or to see our movies or even for our pocket watch technology.



Okay, thats just funny. All these UFO accounts, recordings in our history, what is begining to look reputable as evidence that our military has a UFO and so on and you seem to think they are so compatent? No, if they were that good then the anti-UFO speackers would have a leg to stand on. And we would not be having this conversation.



lol. (<-- not to be taken as posative or negative. Its just that that is a funny thing to imply)




I think that with all of our digging and subteranian work that this statement in a fact! Unless someone world still like to grab a shovel and keep digging.




Dido

I think the real priority of any government capturing a flying saucer or alien space craft with a super-advanced propulsion system (anti-gravity for example), would be to try and reverse engineer it's power plant. So far, our newest jet aircraft flying around (F-22 for example), still have a basic good ole fashion jet engine pushing it along the sky ways. It's a good bet that an advanced alien space craft didn't travel all the way here from Zeta2 Reticuli on rocket power either. So if the government has a advanced flying saucer from another nearby solar system hidden away in Area 51 for the past 60 years, then we should have reversed engineered it or some aspect of it by now or at least made more advancement in copying it's propulsion system. So where's progress then?

I think the real priority of any government capturing a flying saucer or alien space craft with a super-advanced propulsion system (anti-gravity for example), would be to try and reverse engineer it's power plant. So far, our newest jet aircraft flying around (F-22 for example), still have a basic good ole fashion jet engine pushing it along the sky ways. It's a good bet that an advanced alien space craft didn't travel all the way here from Zeta2 Reticuli on rocket power either. So if the government has a advanced flying saucer from another nearby solar system hidden away in Area 51 for the past 60 years, then we should have reversed engineered it or some aspect of it by now or at least made more advancement in copying it's propulsion system. So where's progress then?

screw alien technology...if something like that existed...by the time humans catched up to it and did reverse engineering, the aliens would be far ahead.

Better research on scramjets...like X-series...hypersonics.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/lowhyper.html

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/hypersonic-plane.jpg
X-43 A .... my baby

and now Bob Lazar and his UFO

The UFO as described by Lazar...in its most designed stage. :p

http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/Lazarufo1.GIF\

And now about this Lazar guy...he was a former photographer shop worker...

...duuuuh....a professional photographer and interest of UFO's = money!

I have been tring to understand Lizzar and found that when he talks about what he saw and a few other things he is quite accurate with some of his facts. In other words he knows things that are thought to be untrue but research shows to be dead right. (Plz excuse the lack of details but this could become very long if I tried)

However his story takes a nose dive at the point were he gives his thearies. He mentions that "little is known" when talking about what they have been able to reverse engenier. lol, I can see why. It all sounds sooo crazy simply because, it is. That they are not in anyway able to duplicate this equipment and what it can do is testamony to the fact that they are way off in their understand of it.

The big hipe of this guy is not in what he thinks, but what he saw. Believe it or not, many things he saw have been duplicated if you read thru the correct expairmants by scientists at one point or another. But in every case they through in their own ideas and often it all crashes and can't even be repeated.

How long would it take for them to duplicate a 128 bit 40 GHZ processor?

jumpercable......did you read the link I posted for you?


If you had you wouldn't still be asking "where's the progress".



Maybe you should go back and talk to your "physicists around here"......
Wherever that is.;)

What progress? We are still looking at Alpha Centauri thru telescopes or have you made a trip there recently in your Piper Cub?

If you wish to contend all the points I mentioned above and that I should "pove" them all, then I should ask you to please do your homework before posting here.

Yes, I contend your points, and yes I ask you to prove them. Oh, and I have done my homework wrt Lazar and have come to the conclusion he is a liar, and was doing do for financial reasons. There is a market selling BS to woowoos, and Lazar cut himself a slice.

Lazar is sczhizophrenic, anyone can tell.

How can you tell? Art thou a physician?

All the UFO stuff is rubbish.:rolleyes:

And now about this Lazar guy...he was a former photographer shop worker...

...duuuuh....a professional photographer and interest of UFO's = money!

Huh?!?! You seem to be making an accusation that he faked photos for money. I, however, think you're talking nonsense.
I know plenty about the Lazar case and I've neither heard of nor seen any photographs that he took. He couldn't fake UFO photos if he didn't even take any to begin with. I believe he took some video of flying craft on one of those occasions that he took spectators out to see the test flights, and I believe THIS is the video at this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liDnDoIDflg


I may be confusing this with something else, though, but I swear that Bob Lazar took this footage. This particular clip is pretty famous and is recycled quite often in UFO documentaries.

If any of what Bob Lazar said was true about captured so-called flying saucers and etc. kept secretly in Area 51, then where is all of the 'reverse engineering' at? We're still flying jets you know. Nothing new there.

We're still flying jets,....hm...I do not condone that

Do you even believe there is something like area51?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsVd-cPcVsM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLNWJbuKsY&mode=related&search=

Then if you watch the fifth part of this documentary: threathening employees?
What about these: "patterns of denial"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mva-xMUZEck

Seems to me that plenty of people know Lazar, and they sure hold him credible! :)
together with all the other enigeers and former employees from area51

Just open your visor,....

I think the real priority of any government capturing a flying saucer or alien space craft with a super-advanced propulsion system (anti-gravity for example), would be to try and reverse engineer it's power plant. So far, our newest jet aircraft flying around (F-22 for example), still have a basic good ole fashion jet engine pushing it along the sky ways. It's a good bet that an advanced alien space craft didn't travel all the way here from Zeta2 Reticuli on rocket power either. So if the government has a advanced flying saucer from another nearby solar system hidden away in Area 51 for the past 60 years, then we should have reversed engineered it or some aspect of it by now or at least made more advancement in copying it's propulsion system. So where's progress then?

I always thought of it as too much of a leap. Something like someone back in old Rome getting their hands on a 747. Why would it take so long to reverse engineer? Its simple, much of it invalves things we have yet to discover. This is after all what Lazar said was going on.

Yes, I contend your points, and yes I ask you to prove them. Oh, and I have done my homework wrt Lazar and have come to the conclusion he is a liar, and was doing do for financial reasons. There is a market selling BS to woowoos, and Lazar cut himself a slice.

Somehow I had this idea that you would in no way care what I wrote. You would simply counter it without ever even looking to see if what I wrote was true or not. Perhaps I miss wrote that line. I wanted you to find out for yourself. Profit seeker or not the guy can make claim to something you can not. I would bet that you are unaware that the points I mentioned have validity just like I don't think you even knew that he had said them. It takes less then a few secs to say "Everything he said is false and the man is a liar" at anything stated. But it takes looking to find out that this nut case, Bob Lazar, may have become the nut case he is today because he had the encounter he said he did. I have a "test" of your "homework". What did he say about human prerecorded history? That will be the proof that you look before you type "liar".

Oh, and if you had a chance to make money, would you turn it down? Its not a crime or a sign that a person is lying. Take Monica Luwinsky, do you think she was lying?

We're still flying jets,....hm...I do not condone that

Do you even believe there is something like area51?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsVd-cPcVsM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLNWJbuKsY&mode=related&search=

Then if you watch the fifth part of this documentary: threathening employees?
What about these: "patterns of denial"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mva-xMUZEck

Seems to me that plenty of people know Lazar, and they sure hold him credible! :)
together with all the other enigeers and former employees from area51

Just open your visor,....

Still no anti-gravity propulsion or any other so-called advanced alien propulsion systems or even a remote resemblence of one has been integrated into our earthly propulsion system science as of yet. Nuclear rocket engine technology is the best that we can come up with in the last 60 years? If the government captured an advanced alien space craft 60 years ago, we should have seen something of it's advanced science incorporated into something by now. Still flying jets, aren't we?

And btw: didn't you ever hear about the Disclosure Project?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8INQbApbED0&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLZm_llGg_s&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUTqxZxtl_0&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIhHGkDLM6I&NR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oyYd5OHAM0&NR

Still no anti-gravity propulsion or any other so-called advanced alien propulsion systems or even a remote resemblence of one has been integrated into our earthly propulsion system science as of yet. Nuclear rocket engine technology is the best that we can come up with in the last 60 years? If the government captured an advanced alien space craft 60 years ago, we should have seen something of it's advanced science incorporated into something by now. Still flying jets, aren't we?


My post: @5:52h.

Your reply: @6:25

Still flying jets, aren't we?

Did you even watch the damn stuff? The WHY IS IN THERE !

According to me, you are an disinformant, hired by the goverment, either that or you are just plain and simpel brainwashed by all the hogwash that is surrounding these issues!

Btw: for anyone intrested WHERE all this might lead to (after watching Dr.Steven Greer) take a look at this:

(it's in german alright, couldn't find a translation so soon)

http://www.sabon.org/prophezeiungen/index.html#stor

It's prophesy's about WWIII and I'm not kidding.

...

Then if you watch the fifth part of this documentary: threathening employees?
What about these: "patterns of denial"
youtube.com/watch?v=Mva-xMUZEck

Seems to me that plenty of people know Lazar, and they sure hold him credible! :)
together with all the other enigeers and former employees from area51

Just open your visor,....

LMFO!! In the above video link, a quote "Why is a toy company their (Congress of the US) best source of information of military projects?" Now that is a slap in the face!

My post: @5:52h.

Your reply: @6:25



Did you even watch the damn stuff? The WHY IS IN THERE !

According to me, you are an disinformant, hired by the goverment, either that or you are just plain and simpel brainwashed by all the hogwash that is surrounding these issues!

Btw: for anyone intrested WHERE all this might lead to (after watching Dr.Steven Greer) take a look at this:

(it's in german alright, couldn't find a translation so soon)

http://www.sabon.org/prophezeiungen/index.html#stor

It's prophesy's about WWIII and I'm not kidding.

Until an actual flying saucer or advanced spacecraft and it's occupants that came from another nearby solar system for a friendly visit (or not so friendly), is 'finally' captured, studied and documented for it's advanced technology, then you'll finally have something to talk about. Right now, that's not the case. So your statement about 'WHY IS IN THERE' (German or not), doesn't seem to 'fly' very high right now, does it?

I have seen some comments that "there have been no improvments in flight technology to indicate that we have had and alien craft" or something of this sort. Are you sure? In the last 100 years we have changed technologicaly more than in any other time in our history. The leaps and bounds are so fast that I doubt anyone in the western world has not run into it at some point. Tell me, do you expect to see a sign that says "This product is made possible by your friends on Alpha Centuri" on the back. Anyway, not saying this is true but just wanted to put the question there. Lets not be stupid about this, but lets not say "this is thruth" when we have never looked.

I realise some people like say "I was abducted by a 1000' alien" and we love to say "that proves that all people that speek of aliens are crazy". It should be no suprise to anyone that in man's history there has been something that happended to drive men crazy on the subject of aliens. It is stupidity to say "Its all madeup" and that none of it can be true. "War of The Worlds", "Star Wars", "Star Trek" and mans general craving for space is right up there with his biggest deams and his worst nightmares. Even more, have you ever seen the reaction people give when you say "Aliens have come to earth". Chicago Trabune's parent web site just broke all recordes on viewings by a mile on this one fact. If there is even a shread of validity to it you will see a reaction that defies all others! There is nothing anywhere that will come close. At risk of offending somebody, it is a fact that even God himself can not get the reaction that aliens can. Its an empirical fact that this subject is in our blood and that it has truth in it.

When Lazar said what he did, its easy to laugh, say he is lying and find someway to put him down, then put him down again, and again, again and so on. But why? Why does it not die? Perhaps there is something not stated? Something that stirs within some of us that says "truth". You may not be able to say what about it stirs a reaction. But it never dies, Lazar will and so will his story, but talk of aliens will always rise from the grave to see another day.

Completely impertainant arguement. None of the claimed technology of claimed recovered UFOs has every been implemented(interstellar solutions, chemicaless flight or double figure mach)! Besides that, there are no leaps in technology last century, just natural progression(even though accelerating along with compounded sophistication).

Completely impertainant arguement. None of the claimed technology of claimed recovered UFOs has every been implemented(interstellar solutions, chemicaless flight or double figure mach)! Besides that, there are no leaps in technology last century, just natural progression(even though accelerating along with compounded sophistication).

you call a ride em-up Texas train using coal of 19th century to Space Station of 20th century experimenting with nuclear explosions in space a ... natural progression?

From this:
http://www.georgeglazer.com/prints/citytown/davenporttrain2.JPG

To this:
http://www.mpl.ch/images/pr/phpvhiBul.jpg

Now I understand all the alien people round here talkin how UFO is implemented by government...true or not...but seems to me 19th century to 20th century jump...judging from the previous centuries...had been more than just a natural progression.

you call a ride em-up Texas train using coal of 19th century to Space Station of 20th century experimenting with nuclear explosions in space a ... natural progression?

From this:

To this:

Not necessarily linear.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

Not necessarily linear.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

or exponential. or logarithmic. I am not talking mathematical sense here. and ya know it.

you call a ride em-up Texas train using coal of 19th century to Space Station of 20th century experimenting with nuclear explosions in space a ... natural progression?

From this:
http://www.georgeglazer.com/prints/citytown/davenporttrain2.JPG

To this:
http://www.mpl.ch/images/pr/phpvhiBul.jpg

Now I understand all the alien people round here talkin how UFO is implemented by government...true or not...but seems to me 19th century to 20th century jump...judging from the previous centuries...had been more than just a natural progression.

Hello????Is there anybody home???? Your stupid example is a jump because you have picked the two ends of the last 150 years to compare(not a year by year basis comparison). I reiterate "There has never been a big jump throughout the last century or so ,just steady progression through the years".

or exponential. or logarithmic. I am not talking mathematical sense here. and ya know it.
Fear the comming singularity.

Fear the comming singularity.

My biggest fear is the comming hunger...since I skipped lunchtime...
Now what's "singularity"? Some sort of a name for a chocolate snack I should avoid? sounds delicious...

Now what's "singularity"? Some sort of a name for a chocolate snack I should avoid? sounds delicious...
Yes, very tasty.
The Singularity is technological change so rapid and so profound that it represents a rupture in the fabric of human history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Sorry Draq I shouldnt have been so sarcastic.

Sorry Draq I shouldnt have been so sarcastic.

noone was home anyways...:p

Now, I'm not saying I believe outright, anything that Mr. Lazar has claimed. However, I've been wondering what it is, specifically, that has labelled him to be a fruad?

- I understand that his education, and some of his employment background, has been unable to be verified. However, he did pocess a internal phone book from Los Alomos with his name in it. He also has a check stub, or W2 form with his name, address, and pay amount from the Department of the Navy.


He obviously must have had some type of an education, to gain employment as a scientist with the Naval Dept to be employed as a civilian scientist at Area 51, and/or Los Alomos Laboratories. Is it too far to speculate that his records could have been erased?

He could very well have been used as a disinformation source.

I don't think there's any dispute that he worked at Area 51.

He obviously knew the schedule of when some test flights of some unusual aircraft were being run as he brought along associates to view these tests on more than one occasion.

I'm also aware of his arrest, which I suspect has damaged his credibility as much as anything. However, unless I'm unaware of some things, he was really only guilty of setting up a security system for a Nevada Brothel. He had no other involvement in this line of business. In addition, this is Nevada. Where some counties, this line of business is perfectly legal. I have a hard time discrediting his claims based on this unfortunate incident.

This is a serious question.

Why is his story considered fruadulant?

The government calls it a fraud usually when it's true. When it's false the government doesnt respond to it at all. So there must be at least some truth to what hes saying. The alien stuff I think is brainwashing, but the saucer shaped crafts and UAVs are real.

you call a ride em-up Texas train using coal of 19th century to Space Station of 20th century experimenting with nuclear explosions in space a ... natural progression?

From this:
http://www.georgeglazer.com/prints/citytown/davenporttrain2.JPG

To this:
http://www.mpl.ch/images/pr/phpvhiBul.jpg

Now I understand all the alien people round here talkin how UFO is implemented by government...true or not...but seems to me 19th century to 20th century jump...judging from the previous centuries...had been more than just a natural progression.

It's going to take more than just a 'natural progression' to get us to Alpha Centauri. How about another 500 to 1,000 years of 'natural progression'. Right?

It's going to take more than just a 'natural progression' to get us to Alpha Centauri. How about another 500 to 1,000 years of 'natural progression'. Right?

don get 2 heisty there...I am n0t supp0rting the alien cheese st0ries either.

Somehow I had this idea that you would in no way care what I wrote.

Quite the contrary, if you have apoint to make, make it. Quote, with sources, what Lazar has stated, and show, in reputable journals, where he has been shown to be true, and demonstrate how this implies there are captured alein craft at Area51. Do it, I'm listening.


You would simply counter it without ever even looking to see if what I wrote was true or not.

No I wouldn't, because you are going to substantiate your claims and provide links and references.

I wanted you to find out for yourself.

I've researched Lazar, and not come to the same conclusions you have.

Profit seeker or not the guy can make claim to something you can not.

Not quite true, I've worked with people in the aerospace industry, I could lie about my involvement and say we did stuff we didn't too. Except I could provide names of colleagues, and I've probably still got my contract and payslips filed somewhere. I'm still in contact with ex-colleagues. Lazars lies hinge on the fact that nobody says they knew him, that makes a conspiracy to some, to me, it just means that few people bother to find out the name of the guy mopping out the head.

I would bet that you are unaware that the points I mentioned have validity just like I don't think you even knew that he had said them.

State them, and back them up, then we will discuss them.

It takes less then a few secs to say "Everything he said is false and the man is a liar" at anything stated.

Most of what Lazar says is lies, and he avoids telling the truth about his financial woes, attention seeking, and dubious investments.

What did he say about human prerecorded history? That will be the proof that you look before you type "liar".

I don't know, but then, if Lazar makes any claim about something that was not recorded, it makes me wonder how he going to explain how he himself is aware of it. I researched Lazar a decade ago, so do not remember everything I read about him, and for you to assume so is rather ludicrous. Your entire argument is not proven or refuted on a single point.

Oh, and if you had a chance to make money, would you turn it down? Its not a crime or a sign that a person is lying.

If I had a chance to make money, would I turn it down? No, I make money, I have a job! I wouldn't decide to make money by telling lies, or investing in a whorehouse, like Lazar though.

Quite the contrary, if you have apoint to make, make it. Quote, with sources, what Lazar has stated, and show, in reputable journals, where he has been shown to be true, and demonstrate how this implies there are captured alein craft at Area51. Do it, I'm listening.

No I wouldn't, because you are going to substantiate your claims and provide links and references.

I've researched Lazar, and not come to the same conclusions you have.

Not quite true, I've worked with people in the aerospace industry, I could lie about my involvement and say we did stuff we didn't too. Except I could provide names of colleagues, and I've probably still got my contract and payslips filed somewhere. I'm still in contact with ex-colleagues. Lazars lies hinge on the fact that nobody says they knew him, that makes a conspiracy to some, to me, it just means that few people bother to find out the name of the guy mopping out the head.

State them, and back them up, then we will discuss them.

Most of what Lazar says is lies, and he avoids telling the truth about his financial woes, attention seeking, and dubious investments.

I don't know, but then, if Lazar makes any claim about something that was not recorded, it makes me wonder how he going to explain how he himself is aware of it. I researched Lazar a decade ago, so do not remember everything I read about him, and for you to assume so is rather ludicrous. Your entire argument is not proven or refuted on a single point.

If I had a chance to make money, would I turn it down? No, I make money, I have a job! I wouldn't decide to make money by telling lies, or investing in a whorehouse, like Lazar though.

Very well, It has been awhile sence even I looked into this guy. You don't like the man, thats clear. I don't know anything about his perverted habits or his ways of stealing from people that you keep refering to. You don't seem to ever say any of your sources. You simply say he is lying and then discredit the man with his immoral acts and leave it at that. In my life this has been the way of disinformation without concurn for little things like truth.

I don't know who you are or if you have any reason to say what you do. I can only guess that you have information from after I looked due to this information never coming to light. I do not remember myself all the names of people invalved. I have not gotten into sources as I do not care to defend the man. I wanted to deffend that he could be right about Area 51. On this you have never said why he is a liar. You have never touched it, only saying that he was never there, never that "such and such" is untrue because.... Realise I don't care about the man's personal life to defend him on those grounds.

There is a two fold direction that man must take. The first is moral, the secound is technological. It is my hope to forward humanity in both these areas. When I was a little kid I saw that was a must. I defend Lazar's story of Area 51 because I see that truth sits here even if he has parts of it wrong. Lies will not help man right now. He has been lied to, overwelmed by force, subverted, hipnotized and his past erased. Lies will only push him into the mud more than he already is. Area 51, wrongly or rightly looks to me to have evidence that people could stub their toe on. That is about the level of evidence people seem to need.

To conclude, you say he has no evidence that he was there. Fine, I will not go there anymore. But what do you think about his claims of Area 51? Do you have proof that its a hoax? He gets attantion with his claims of UFOs. Is this something you contend? If so, why and do youhave proof?

Oh and there are 2 different types of antigravity devices in the works that may have promise. One by NASA and the other by Searl.

Very well, It has been awhile sence even I looked into this guy. You don't like the man, thats clear. I don't know anything about his perverted habits or his ways of stealing from people that you keep refering to. You don't seem to ever say any of your sources. You simply say he is lying and then discredit the man with his immoral acts and leave it at that. In my life this has been the way of disinformation without concurn for little things like truth.

I don't know who you are or if you have any reason to say what you do. I can only guess that you have information from after I looked due to this information never coming to light. I do not remember myself all the names of people invalved. I have not gotten into sources as I do not care to defend the man. I wanted to deffend that he could be right about Area 51. On this you have never said why he is a liar. You have never touched it, only saying that he was never there, never that "such and such" is untrue because.... Realise I don't care about the man's personal life to defend him on those grounds.

There is a two fold direction that man must take. The first is moral, the secound is technological. It is my hope to forward humanity in both these areas. When I was a little kid I saw that was a must. I defend Lazar's story of Area 51 because I see that truth sits here even if he has parts of it wrong. Lies will not help man right now. He has been lied to, overwelmed by force, subverted, hipnotized and his past erased. Lies will only push him into the mud more than he already is. Area 51, wrongly or rightly looks to me to have evidence that people could stub their toe on. That is about the level of evidence people seem to need.

To conclude, you say he has no evidence that he was there. Fine, I will not go there anymore. But what do you think about his claims of Area 51? Do you have proof that its a hoax? He gets attantion with his claims of UFOs. Is this something you contend? If so, why and do youhave proof?

Sc0tt...buddy...y0u cant dispr0ve s0mething that didnt have pro0f in the first place.

lol, well first off, you can go to Google Earth and look up "Area 51". Thats proof.
Next here is a anti-gravity device you can make. http://www.americanantigravity.com/lifterkit.shtml
Here is proof that magnetic force can influance water: http://www.hfml.ru.nl/pics/Movies/drop2a.mpg Even Strawberries http://www.hfml.ru.nl/pics/Movies/strawberry.mpg
Here is mainstream recognition that perhaps magnets can produce gravity as not guessed before. http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html
NASA is not the only one trying this thing out. Boeing wants in too, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2157975.stm

So I just didn't state the question right. In other words, things Lazar refered to have some basis that we don't understand. Perhaps some of it is possible. And yes, you can have proof that points out quite clearly that Lazar stated something that was found to be wrong.

lol, well first off, you can go to Google Earth and look up "Area 51". Thats proof.
Proof of what?

Proof of what?

alien cheese 0f c0urse.

Proof of what?

Are you unaware that Lazar said Area 51 was real back when it was not considered so?

you call a ride em-up Texas train using coal of 19th century to Space Station of 20th century experimenting with nuclear explosions in space a ... natural progression?

From this:
http://www.georgeglazer.com/prints/citytown/davenporttrain2.JPG

To this:
http://www.mpl.ch/images/pr/phpvhiBul.jpg

Now I understand all the alien people round here talkin how UFO is implemented by government...true or not...but seems to me 19th century to 20th century jump...judging from the previous centuries...had been more than just a natural progression.

You miss that during that one Century the world gained accurate time readings, it gained faster delivery services that improved communication, The development of both wired and wireless technology further increased communication.

The once difficult to navigate globe became transversible at the very least by communication, people could have discussion over the equipment while being on different continents. On top of this the Base education level of the masses was increased through radio broadcasts and eventually television broadcasts, which in turn broadcast some of the Science Lectures so anybody interested in that particular science could enjoy the lecture no matter where they were.

Our progression has greatly been enhanced by this not some Grey alien.

lol, well first off, you can go to Google Earth and look up "Area 51". Thats proof.

Yes 'Area51' exists, it's well know to be a place where top secret military aircraft are tested. It's not been demonstated that alien craft have been kept there, however.

Next here is a anti-gravity device you can make. http://www.americanantigravity.com/lifterkit.shtml

Kid, that uses electrostatic force to levitate the object. It's 'counter gravity' therefore, not 'anti-gravity'

Here is proof that magnetic force can influance water: http://www.hfml.ru.nl/pics/Movies/drop2a.mpg Even Strawberries http://www.hfml.ru.nl/pics/Movies/strawberry.mpg

So what has that got to do with anything? Lazar said the alien craft were powered by element 115, not Strawberries!

Here is mainstream recognition that perhaps magnets can produce gravity as not guessed before. http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html

"gravitational equivalent of a magnetic field", ,.. read it again, ...

NASA is not the only one trying this thing out. Boeing wants in too, http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html

Er, that's the same URL and it doesn't mention Boeing.

So I just didn't state the question right. In other words, things Lazar refered to have some basis that we don't understand. Perhaps some of it is possible. And yes, you can have proof that points out quite clearly that Lazar stated something that was found to be wrong.

Look kid, stick to the topic, find quotes from Lazar, and prove Lazar to be right. All you have done here is mention a bunch of other stuff, which doesn't help your argument at all. Show his claims aout element 115 are true if you like.

BTW, I haven't said Lazar never worked at Area51, just that he has greatly exaggerated his involvement there, he might have been emplyed as a cleaner, all he has is one check stub, assuming that is even real. Like I said, I worked in aerospace and I can show pay slips, my contract of employment, perhaps an expired security badge. I'd have expected Lazar to have kept this stuff too, but for some reason, he lost it all doesn't that sound a little suspicious to you? Also, that he cannot name one fellow student he supposedly knew while he was study at MIT or Caltech? I can remember fellow students from my Uni days, and that was 20 years ago.

Let it go, Lazar is not credible.

Yes 'Area51' exists, it's well know to be a place where top secret military aircraft are tested. It's not been demonstated that alien craft have been kept there, however.



Kid, that uses electrostatic force to levitate the object. It's 'counter gravity' therefore, not 'anti-gravity'



So what has that got to do with anything? Lazar said the alien craft were powered by element 115, not Strawberries!



"gravitational equivalent of a magnetic field", ,.. read it again, ...



Er, that's the same URL and it doesn't mention Boeing.



Look kid, stick to the topic, find quotes from Lazar, and prove Lazar to be right. All you have done here is mention a bunch of other stuff, which doesn't help your argument at all. Show his claims aout element 115 are true if you like.

BTW, I haven't said Lazar never worked at Area51, just that he has greatly exaggerated his involvement there, he might have been emplyed as a cleaner, all he has is one check stub, assuming that is even real. Like I said, I worked in aerospace and I can show pay slips, my contract of employment, perhaps an expired security badge. I'd have expected Lazar to have kept this stuff too, but for some reason, he lost it all doesn't that sound a little suspicious to you? Also, that he cannot name one fellow student he supposedly knew while he was study at MIT or Caltech? I can remember fellow students from my Uni days, and that was 20 years ago.

Let it go, Lazar is not credible.


I was simply out to change the subject and get off of a 2 way back and forth over Lazar.

Also you are right. None of the above are true anti-gravity. But don't put it away that fast. At a time when gravity is not understood, the term also means anything that looks like it. You pointed out that these are magnetic. I confess that it may seem random to you. In part I have added it because of talk on new tech on the subject of flight in this thread. Also you may wish to close the door on these as simple magnetics but the devices I mentioned are a bit more. NASA gets ridiculed for what is not magnetic about it. They hate talking about it so I am having trouble finding a quote that does not say "Lets plz not call it anti-gravity". Its not that I am saying it is, its that it has unidentified phenomenon that has some people jumping at it, and as I have no better name for it, I did to. http://www.searlsolution.com/evidence2.html This is the cleariest non bias (well, about the phenomenon anyway) of the odd stuff that gets it the anti-gravity name. So perhaps it is not anti-gravity, but it is something. When we get a better understanding of it, then we may have another name made for it.

Also realise I am not changing the subject. I said I do not support his (Lazar) views. But I do think that just because he spoke of odd things that are in disagreement and seem unfounded with the modern veiws of science does not mean he is crazy. Well, he said this thearies, I am backing up only that the craft he mentioned could use a system of the above. I drag anti-gravity and magnetics issues into it as they are not understood and could very well be the basis of what he saw. You mention that I should show evidence for my arguments. This is all that I believe deserves the time spent proving.

Oh, and I fixed the Boeing link. Not sure what happend.

basically all these UFO lovers end up supporting the anti-gravity that is achieved...however its not anti-gravity but a maaaad strong electrostatic force...

thats how that strawberry floats

This topic is about a kook named Lazar. So, if you aren't supporting his views, what are you trying to say exactly? You "drag anti-gravity and magnetics" into the discussion to support that what he's saying could be true, but this isn't a good argument since it's purely one from personal incredulity. Just because something cannot be explained or completely understood doesn't mean that wild claims of space aliens are true.

Those who make public claims should have the sole burden of proof and, if they refuse to do so, deserve just about whatever ridicule they get in return.

Interestingly, the argument from ignorance (or personal incredulity) (http://skepdic.com/ignorance.html) nearly always finds its way into the repertoire of proponents of pseudoscience and the paranormal.

This topic is about a kook named Lazar. So, if you aren't supporting his views, what are you trying to say exactly? You "drag anti-gravity and magnetics" into the discussion to support that what he's saying could be true, but this isn't a good argument since it's purely one from personal incredulity. Just because something cannot be explained or completely understood doesn't mean that wild claims of space aliens are true.

Those who make public claims should have the sole burden of proof and, if they refuse to do so, deserve just about whatever ridicule they get in return.

Interestingly, the argument from ignorance (or personal incredulity) (http://skepdic.com/ignorance.html) nearly always finds its way into the repertoire of proponents of pseudoscience and the paranormal.

Lol, no kiding, I have a number of posts here on just that. I do not suport the opinions and thearies of Lazar. I do however believe that he did in fact visit Area 51 and that his claims of what he saw are true. I do not care for his opinion of how it all worked or a criminal history or prevertions or blah blah blah opinions of Lazar. Way back I stated this and still hold it true. I mention magnetics and Area 51 and so on, all within this light. This is just the lastest post.

Just because something cannot be explained or completely understood doesn't mean that wild claims of space aliens are true.



Are they all wild claims, or are there tame ones?

basically all these UFO lovers end up supporting the anti-gravity that is achieved...

I have loved many UFOs before.

And so have you. Admit it.

I have loved many UFOs before.

And so have you. Admit it.

but not to the point that UFO have influenced the history...

but not to the point that UFO have influenced the history...

Influenced the history? Of humans? Not sure what exactly you're getting at. Does this have something to do with technology donated to humans by extraterrestrials? Manipulation on a deeper level, perhaps?

Influenced the history? Of humans? Not sure what exactly you're getting at. Does this have something to do with technology donated to humans by extraterrestrials? Manipulation on a deeper level, perhaps?

thats what I am saying...all that alien-homosapiens technology transfer is based on puff of nonexisting air.

It's difficult to say with certainty whether some things are truly nonexistant or not.

There's probabilities, yes, but even those are sometimes hard to quantify. This very much includes the probabilities of extraterrestrials. Too many unknown variables to adequately address the problem, though this doesn't stop people from stating "yea" or "nay" with unwavering conviction.

It's difficult to say with certainty whether some things are truly nonexistant or not.

no proof than there is no need to believe in them...or develop stories.

What does develop stories mean, exactly?

And about proof and belief... don't confuse proof with evidence, or belief with open-mindedness.

What does develop stories mean, exactly?

And about proof and belief... don't confuse proof with evidence, or belief with open-mindedness.

Or Poof and belief with closed-mindedness. History is not quite, tame or as kind as we would like to believe it has been.

you call a ride em-up Texas train using coal of 19th century to Space Station of 20th century experimenting with nuclear explosions in space a ... natural progression?

From this:
http://www.georgeglazer.com/prints/citytown/davenporttrain2.JPG

To this:
http://www.mpl.ch/images/pr/phpvhiBul.jpg

Now I understand all the alien people round here talkin how UFO is implemented by government...true or not...but seems to me 19th century to 20th century jump...judging from the previous centuries...had been more than just a natural progression.

I disagree. The twentieth century saw the first two world wars, the cold war, and a number of wars there in between (i'm not belittling the others, you all get the point). One thing about war is progression. Despite all the lives lost, all of the time in combat and planning to best your enemy, there is also a lot of time spent on development. There is perhaps more money spent on weaponry at this point than on all the individual government grants combined outside of wartime. Because of the aggression dragging the pockets and the money they carry you end up with a lot more push and shove to get things done. We've got plenty of war time discoveries that made huge leaps, the Atom bomb, railroads, all number of stipulations, regulations, and advancements come from our last one hundred years of war. Competition has and always will bring out the best in workers, look at the Stakhanovites, the space race, the development of aircraft. Who knows, at this rate I bet we "advance" the hell out of ourselves.

I was kind of leaving war out of the picture because otherwise some smart asciid dictator will realise just how much cool stuff people managed to research in such a quick time period because of a war push and there before you know it we're all at each others throughts just so some executive can get a more advanced powertoy.

oh I forgat to mention it...but the WWI and WWII produced some really neat stuff that helped our civilization and advanced us! and life became better and we became more civilized!

Your version of civilization maybe.
Did you realize automobiles kill more people every year than all those wars combined?

In an advanced civilization where people live in faith and walk after the Spirit, we will travel as a thought, and you will know as you are known.

This world has been shaped and deformed by unbelief, into a form of Satan's Eden.
He said he wanted a kingdom more beautiful than that of Michaels.

Do you think it is beautiful.....from the eye's of a child full of tears just having lost a parent?.
Or a parent who just outlived their own child, lost in a car wreck?

It is not civil, or advanced.
It is a primitive world, which worships the image.... of a beast.

Depends what you are looking at.
The simple things hold so much, if you don't slow down you'll miss what's really important.


Sir TheVisitor...I was making fun of Stryder's comment above. Wars obviously are a horrible thing and take too many lives.

Okay, I have a msg for the guys that DON'T want to believe an alternative illusion,....get out of pseudoscience,....

So that we, believers, can talk about this stuff, without those discussions ALWAYS mounting to dis-regard of proof by saying there is no proof.

There is proof enough, you dis-informationists just don't want us to say it to others.

Sir TheVisitor...I was making fun of Stryder's comment above. Wars obviously are a horrible thing and take too many lives.

They haven't taken enough lives. I'm still here, aren't I. :bugeye:

I don't think Stryder was endorsing war. Though I wonder what he meant by smart asciid dictator? Maybe all the time spent in the computer forum has made him sublime?

Okay, I have a msg for the guys that DON'T want to believe an alternative illusion,....get out of pseudoscience,....

So that we, believers, can talk about this stuff, without those discussions ALWAYS mounting to dis-regard of proof by saying there is no proof.

There is proof enough, you dis-informationists just don't want us to say it to others.

Alternative illusion. You really must not like being taken seriously then?

Alternative illusion. You really must not like being taken seriously then?

we all take this seriously. alternative illusion in a sublime state of parapsychological anomaly is very intricate subject.

Or Poof Now now now, about the name calling... ;)

and belief with closed-mindedness. History is not quite, tame or as kind as we would like to believe it has been.

Did you mean "quiet" instead of "quite"?

we all take this seriously. alternative illusion in a sublime state of parapsychological anomaly is very intricate subject.

You're starting to injure me.
Burned neurons, etc.

You're starting to injure me.
Burned neurons, etc.

Duh...
http://fishki.net/go.php?url=http://fishki.net/picsw/012007/19/pics/21_pics.jpg
don wanna put it up or jiamesR may take it dwn.

Have you ever heard of the American Indian prophecy of "The White Buffalo"...?

the spirit of killed buffalo?

Duh...
http://fishki.net/go.php?url=http://fishki.net/picsw/012007/19/pics/21_pics.jpg
don wanna put it up or jiamesR may take it dwn.

DUDE! Is that YOU? That's child pornography.

At its finest.

And you didn't tell me what your avatar says.

DUDE! Is that YOU?
And you didn't tell me what your avatar says.

no its not. its a smiling girl.
And I am a guy, no its not me.
as for my avatar.....emmm...cant tell you.

no its not. its a smiling girl.
And I am a guy, no its not me.
as for my avatar.....emmm...cant tell you.

It's probably really stupid, and you're just embarrassed. Russian is gobbledygook anyway. Everytime I hear it, I can't make any sense of it. :)

As for your gender, I have my doubts. And that girl wasn't just smiling. She was doing something naughty with her tongue.:o :o

It's probably really stupid, and you're just embarrassed. Russian is gobbledygook anyway. Everytime I hear it, I can't make any sense of it. :)

As for your gender, I have my doubts. And that girl wasn't just smiling. She was doing something naughty with her tongue.:o :o

dude if I dont curse and speak of soft language...doesnt mean I am a female. I am a guy allright. And yes that girl was just smiling.

And what in the world is gobbledygook? is that supposed to be in russian? its not.

dude if I dont curse and speak of soft language...doesnt mean I am a female. I am a guy allright. And yes that girl was just smiling.

And what in the world is gobbledygook? is that supposed to be in russian? its not.

It's Cyrillic, so I assumed it's russian, though a few other slavic groups use cyrillic or similar alphabets.
Fine, don't tell me what it is. I don't want to know.

Soon this world will have to deal with two major issues:

- The ending of the oil supply
- The cataclystic eco-crisis of wich we are now beginning to see the glimpses


My belief is that the 'escape' of man to other worlds IS the only way for mankind to survive.
Now picture this: Imagine what you would do with a technology like anti-gravity or gravity-shielding technology (if you will).

To even begin answering a question like this, you should go back in time for a couple of decades, say 50 to 60 years and ask yourself this:
What would you do with mircowaves?

You see, it's not a finished technology. The germans were already experimenting with anti-gravity devices, this has been elaborately shown troughout historical investigations,...
of course you, being a twenty-first-century-sapiens, expect it all to lay for grabs on the internet, with links et all,....

UNFORTUNATELY it's not.

So, end of story you say,...

Can you see how close minded and silly you come off to some of us guys?
Ofcourse not everything is on the internet, there are literally thousands of people who are working to put the story OUT.

But there are MILLIONS like you guys, who just can't fathom it.
Wake up! Think for yourself. And look at the truth from another perspective, because if you're for real, you should do that.
If you think it's not,...then go take another look at the paradimes that the quantum-mechanics meant for the world of DESCARTES AND NEWTON
and in turn; what every human must do for himself now: to place the exact exlamation marks on the evolution of our
social and moral conduct.

YOU see the world trough the eyes of an ancient, defeceated, sociosyncratic, psychosympatic, filosomatic perspective.....

YOU didn't evolve, you dinosour brains! (and DO FEEL THE PUN) and this to;

-no-one in particular,
-the ones that take offence in it
-and also maby to all those that are religious but are saying that their world they live in is NOT an illusion of it's own

Dig it.

Greetz

And thank you for your attention.

Soon this world will have to deal with two major issues:

- The ending of the oil supply
- The cataclystic eco-crisis of wich we are now beginning to see the glimpses


My belief is that the 'escape' of man to other worlds IS the only way for mankind to survive.
Now picture this: Imagine what you would do with a technology like anti-gravity or gravity-shielding technology (if you will).

To even begin answering a question like this, you should go back in time for a couple of decades, say 50 to 60 years and ask yourself this:
What would you do with mircowaves?

You see, it's not a finished technology. The germans were already experimenting with anti-gravity devices, this has been elaborately shown troughout historical investigations,...of course you, being a twenty-first-century-sapiens, expect it all to lay for grabs on the internet, with links et all,....

UNFORTUNATELY it's not.

So, end of story you say,...

Can you see how close minded and silly you come off to some of us guys?
Ofcourse not everything is on the internet, there are literally thousands of people who are working to put the story OUT.

But there are MILLIONS like you guys, who just can't fathom it.
Wake up! Think for yourself.

And thank you for your attention.

well I, for one thing, aiming all my life to going to NASA and escaping to Mars.

well I, for one thing, aiming all my life to going to NASA and escaping to Mars.
Mars belong to us.

Mars belong to us.

:bugeye: who would that be? simple methanogenic bacteria with hydrogen pyroxide walls?

Soon this world will have to deal with two major issues:

- The ending of the oil supply
- The cataclystic eco-crisis of wich we are now beginning to see the glimpses


My belief is that the 'escape' of man to other worlds IS the only way for mankind to survive.

All the planets within reachable distance have no environment that can sustain life (Although there is always discussion over whether a planet "Once" sustained life, or with the help of a serious expense account would terraforming be possible). So running away from an "eco-crisis" to a planet with no ecology is pretty rediculous.

Since these planets have no confirmed history of life either, it pretty much removed "Fossil Fuels" from being found there, this means those planets have no oil or coal. If such planets had been found to have a vaste supply of oil, I'm sure there would be a bunch of oil companies already chalking up plans to take over a bunch of them.

I suppose you could say the harsher the environment becomes here the more we will know if our lives can withstand hostile environments. This would be important if such "Terraforming" or biosphere building was to ever occur in the future.

Although currently Space would be too costly and the only plans people have for it currently is military[surveillance], Communications, Education[Astronomy/Astrophysics] and of course Rich peoples holidays.

Point taken,

But when the oil supply diminishes, there already should be an effort to reach for the stars, because altough there would be no life on the planets we discover now, we have just sofar discovered only a few and this, not to the lack of existing planets that we can find but rather the lack of money we're trowing at it.

A good example for that would be the delayed (initially cancelled) Terrestial-Planet-Finder

A bit of disclosure, especially in these hard crisis times, would all be to welcome I suppose.

But when the oil supply diminishes, there already should be an effort to reach for the stars, because altough there would be no life on the planets we discover now, we have just sofar discovered only a few and this, not to the lack of existing planets that we can find but rather the lack of money we're trowing at it.

We just haven't got the technology to detect habitable planets. We are only just capable of finding quite large planets, several times that of Earth at the moment, and we have no way of actually imaging or resolving them. We use orbital 'wobble' to predict their existence, or look for occlusion in the intensity of their star. We'd have to be able to resolve the planet itself, and then look at spectra, to see the composition of the atmosphere, prove water, look in IR for vegetation, etc etc etc. This would require a hugely sensitive instrument, in orbit, and this would be incredibly expensive, and of dubious benefit. We can't currently get a manned mission to another planet in our Solar System, let alone leave it, cross space to another, and land. So what use is it, knowing where a habitable planet is? None, we can't get one person there, we can't even get a probe there at the moment, let alone a population large enough to save mankind.

And here's the question, why should people pay taxes to save a few others to go live a new life on a new planet, to be left behind to suffer? I'm not paying for that, and in fact, I'd make it my mission to sabotage any such plans, and make everyone face up to their responsibilities right here on Earth. We need to reduce our population, and therefore our demand on resources, and invest in nuclear energy in the short term, until we can sustain ourselves by other means. This is where the research and spending should focus, not on manned space missions.

And here's the question, why should people pay taxes to save a few others to go live a new life on a new planet, to be left behind to suffer? I'm not paying for that, and in fact, I'd make it my mission to sabotage any such plans, and make everyone face up to their responsibilities right here on Earth. We need to reduce our population, and therefore our demand on resources, and invest in nuclear energy in the short term, until we can sustain ourselves by other means. This is where the research and spending should focus, not on manned space missions.

Wow. On one side you are right. We have little right to be so irrespossible as to move onto more planets having proven we can't be responisible for our own. But on the second, we are not over populated.

What can one man accomplish? Or let me ask other questions. How much forest could you destroy with a flame thrower and chainsaw in a day? If all men on earth worked like that, this planet would not last a week. Its not that I am attacking you, its that man gets what he works on. It can sometimes be hard to tell with the large numbers of people on Earth that most people take from the Earth more than they give. Let me make this simpler. If every one on Earth spent 60% of his day destroying our planet and 40% building it back up again what do you think would happen? And what if you reversed those figures?

6.5 billion people can look like alot of people. It is. But this planet can take alot more if man learned to create a planet more then he desroyed it. We can not however live as we do by taking more than we give. Thus we destroy. Half the current population will have the same result, it will just take longer before the end would come. It is still too much destruction. Man has survived as he is for two reasons. The first is that the planet has alot of resources that took along time to put there. The second is that he didn't know how to get around the destruction he caused and thus had to keep from being too destructive. Knowledge brings power, but it also brings responsiblity. Anyone can leave behind him more than he destroys.

The ONLY solution is to restore mankinds responsiblity or move him to a new area to destroy - and that will eventualy have an end too when he runs out of area.

Reducing the population of man is just as irresponsible. It is yet another way to not take responsiblity and would only work if you could cut him down below the level of destruction that he creates until nature could make up for this blight on Earth. Truly insane people love to infiltrate this kind of "fact" into mans thinking until sane people kill their babes and man heads for another dark age. It starts small, but it always starts with the wrong solution.

There will one day come a time that man realy does reach a state of over population. But if he is realy sane, he will not need to kill or cut down the future of man.

He can reach for the stars and leave a living world behind him.

P.S. Did you know that over 50% of the worlds forest's have been cut down?

Wow. On one side you are right. We have little right to be so irrespossible as to move onto more planets having proven we can't be responisible for our own. But on the second, we are not over populated.

What can one man accomplish? Or let me ask other questions. How much forest could you destroy with a flame thrower and chainsaw in a day? If all men on earth worked like that, this planet would not last a week. Its not that I am attacking you, its that man gets what he works on. It can sometimes be hard to tell with the large numbers of people on Earth that most people take from the Earth more than they give. Let me make this simpler. If every one on Earth spent 60% of his day destroying our planet and 40% building it back up again what do you think would happen? And what if you reversed those figures?

6.5 billion people can look like alot of people. It is. But this planet can take alot more if man learned to create a planet more then he desroyed it. We can not however live as we do by taking more than we give. Thus we destroy. Half the current population will have the same result, it will just take longer before the end would come. It is still too much destruction. Man has survived as he is for two reasons. The first is that the planet has alot of resources that took along time to put there. The second is that he didn't know how to get around the destruction he caused and thus had to keep from being too destructive. Knowledge brings power, but it also brings responsiblity. Anyone can leave behind him more than he destroys.

The ONLY solution is to restore mankinds responsiblity or move him to a new area to destroy - and that will eventualy have an end too when he runs out of area.

Reducing the population of man is just as irresponsible. It is yet another way to not take responsiblity and would only work if you could cut him down below the level of destruction that he creates until nature could make up for this blight on Earth. Truly insane people love to infiltrate this kind of "fact" into mans thinking until sane people kill their babes and man heads for another dark age. It starts small, but it always starts with the wrong solution.

There will one day come a time that man realy does reach a state of over population. But if he is realy sane, he will not need to kill or cut down the future of man.

He can reach for the stars and leave a living world behind him.

P.S. Did you know that over 50% of the worlds forest's have been cut down?

It's obvious that man had better start looking for another place to hang out if he wants to continue his so-called intelligent life form, because in a billion years from now, this place we call planet earth is going to start getting pretty dam hot. One could possibly say the same thing about Alpha Centauri too. Any suggestions?

advice people to stay indoor and report that skin cancer is normal desease, that can happen with all of us, so put on extra sunlotion. Further on act like nothing is happeningn until you drop death. Afther that fill in a formal complain.

advice people to stay indoor and report that skin cancer is normal desease, that can happen with all of us, so put on extra sunlotion. Further on act like nothing is happeningn until you drop death. Afther that fill in a formal complain.

It's probably a good bet that the human race will be long gone in less than a billion years from now and maybe even much sooner than that. But, as I pointed out in my previous post, better start looking now for a safe haven in another closeby star system to continue the species before it's too late.

It's probably a good bet that the human race will be long gone in less than a billion years from now and maybe even much sooner than that. But, as I pointed out in my previous post, better start looking now for a safe haven in another closeby star system to continue the species before it's too late.

Offcourse humans beens are going to disapear in the next 50 000 years naturally by evolution.
All considering it would only take 1 or 2 generations that deem the human model is outdated, for all of it to change with near future genetica so I don't give the human race as we now it, another 500 years. That is if we survive that long.

The earth isn't wreally doing so well with 6 billion people on it, I think we're with a little bid to much people on this globe

It's probably a good bet that the human race will be long gone in less than a billion years from now and maybe even much sooner than that.

The human race will be unrecognisable in 100,000 years, if it still exists. It won't last a million, let alone anything approaching a billion. On these timescales you have to factor in natural disasters, and over a million years, we stand a good chance of having our society crushed by nature.

But, as I pointed out in my previous post, better start looking now for a safe haven in another closeby star system to continue the species before it's too late.

Why should we bother? What's so special about us? If another planet can host life, it probably is, we should leave them alone.

The human race will be unrecognisable in 100,000 years, if it still exists. It won't last a million, let alone anything approaching a billion. On these timescales you have to factor in natural disasters, and over a million years, we stand a good chance of having our society crushed by nature.



Why should we bother? What's so special about us? If another planet can host life, it probably is, we should leave them alone.

Even if there is another planet in a nearby solar system that does harbor life as we know it or something similiar, we'll probably spend the next 500 to 1,000 years trying to communicate with it to find out if we're welcome. Chances are, we won't be.

regarding Stanton Friedman's access to personal information - exactly how did Stanton get permission to access Bob's credentials. Stanton does not list any references of peoples names he used to access it. Stanton was the first one to attack Corso for not listing references in his book!

Personally don't believe all of Bobs story about aliens - Total BS unless proved otherwise.

About that w2 form - there are hundreds of departments working for the department of naval intelligence such as sub-contractors (technicians, professors, security agencies, government, etc) - sorry, but thats not enough proof to say that Bob was a scientist and all the stuff he claims, however strange that George Knapp called for an inquiry into his w2 form and got back 'permission denied' - more confusion.

Fraud or not!!

Whether you believe Bob Lazar stories or not about captured alien flying saucers from Zeta2 Reticuli stored in Area 51, the burden of proof will always be for Bob Lazar's to prove and 'not' the U.S. government.

thats right..dun believe any BS alien reticuli crap. I just wanted to know how one would access another persons credentials.

He who is without fantasy, is living a lie.

Right now I prefer living a lie until I can see an actual flying saucer land somewhere in Washington D.C. with a group of advanced aliens disembarking from their spacecraft carrying some flowers and ice cream from their home planet to give to all of the children and their families gathered around to welcome them.

There are various thirdparty agencies that for a price will do a background check on whoever they are paid to do the check on. They will pretty much look into details available like outstanding warrants, credit ratings, guarantuers to work out information about a person, it's usually called "Social Engineering" when you apply that information to generate a "profile/model" of that person is question.

So what's Bob Lazar's credit score these days?

Right now I prefer living a lie until I can see an actual flying saucer land somewhere in Washington D.C. with a group of advanced aliens disembarking from their spacecraft carrying some flowers and ice cream from their home planet to give to all of the children and their families gathered around to welcome them.


This actually DID happen, you might not have heard about it in the press however...

and ofcourse; it happened way back before the internet as we know it.

This actually DID happen, you might not have heard about it in the press however...
Yeah, as I recall it was in a B-movie.

This actually DID happen, you might not have heard about it in the press however...

So how did _you_ hear about it?

and ofcourse; it happened way back before the internet as we know it.

Hmm, I bet you read it on the Internet.

btw, I have been using International computer networks for 23 years, and I bet there are people on here who can beat that. The Internet (capital 'I' please!) was never anything special, it's just that we let regular folks start using it, that was the minor revolution.

'The National Enuirer' pre-dates the Internet, so Pseudo crap got published there for goobers to read, before they read it on the web.

huhu and huhuh, and my dick is bigger than yours and blabla bla

I'm not intrested in that kind of talk, be nice to me.

I think our government is getting comfortable talking about stealth technology. Lazar talked of a reserve of new tech being worked on. Seems reasonable to me that they would be willing to disclose stealth information if they had something else in the works.

I think it is very likely that they would have something more in the works that on occasion gets spotted. Our military has already stated that they work at night on new technology just to keep it hard to spot and identify. Not to mention the work of keeping secret that such a tech could exist.

While it is still top secret, our government is still willing to mention that the B-2 Stealth Bomber uses electro-magnetic additions on the front of the wings. The stated reason is to add more air flow so that the plane can stay up with less work from the engines. Thus less heat to be detected with.

Even the Raptor can "hover" if only for a short amount of time through what they refer to as "vector control" on it's tail.

It was 50 years to go from propellers to jet engines. Already we see they some very talented tricks can be pulled off with the aide of other newer tech to push jet engines to new limits. I have not doubt that new methods of flight that could never be taken seriously before now are coming into being.

I think our government is getting comfortable talking about stealth technology. Lazar talked of a reserve of new tech being worked on. Seems reasonable to me that they would be willing to disclose stealth information if they had something else in the works.

I think it is very likely that they would have something more in the works that on occasion gets spotted. Our military has already stated that they work at night on new technology just to keep it hard to spot and identify. Not to mention the work of keeping secret that such a tech could exist.

While it is still top secret, our government is still willing to mention that the B-2 Stealth Bomber uses electro-magnetic additions on the front of the wings. The stated reason is to add more air flow so that the plane can stay up with less work from the engines. Thus less heat to be detected with.

Even the Raptor can "hover" if only for a short amount of time through what they refer to as "vector control" on it's tail.

It was 50 years to go from propellers to jet engines. Already we see they some very talented tricks can be pulled off with the aide of other newer tech to push jet engines to new limits. I have not doubt that new methods of flight that could never be taken seriously before now are coming into being.

Shouldn't be to difficult to copy with our current technology, an advanced magnetic drive propulsion system from a captured flying saucer or alien spacecraft (if there is such a thing). But if for some reason the American scientists can't copy it (if it indeed does exist in Area 51), then let the japanese or chinese copy it. No problem for them. They can copy anything.

huhu and huhuh, and my dick is bigger than yours and blabla bla

I'm not intrested in that kind of talk, be nice to me.

Stop talking crap, and maybe I will.

They didin't seem to have any problem copying German jetplanes after WWII

http://www.luft46.com/mess/mess.html

They didin't seem to have any problem copying German jetplanes after WWII

http://www.luft46.com/mess/mess.html

They, meaning the Russians? Remember the Mig15? Outclimb, out maneuver just about everything, including the F86. Not too bad for a first generation jet, was it?

They, meaning the Americans in the first place! :)

But indeed, Russians took some knowledge from the underground bases in their occupied territory yes.

The link I gave, was ONLY messersmidt, the americans copied everything they could get their hands on! They were like 15 years BEHIND in technological knowledge.

Greetz
Fuku