View Full Version : Black Hole - closer than you think!


kmguru
03-26-02, 01:54 PM
Science News
Week of March 23, 2002; Vol. 161, No. 12


The Black Hole Next Door

Mighty particle collisions may bring black holes to venues near you
Peter Weiss

Think of a black hole. No one has ever observed one directly, but chances are that you envision some gargantuan jet-black entity that's far, far away and insatiably consuming any matter or light that comes near it. Some physicists whose job description includes thinking about black holes have conjured up another possibility. They're suggesting that extremely tiny, lightweight versions of these exotic objects could be forming right over our heads when ultra-high-energy particles, called cosmic rays, from space strike atoms or molecules in the atmosphere. Those newly created black holes would then quickly decay, harmlessly raining subatomic particles down onto our planet and ourselves.

"Black holes popping up in the sky is a very spectacular possibility," says theorist Jonathan L. Feng of the University of California, Irvine. If it turns out to be true, some scientists say they might be able to mass-produce black holes in particle colliders.

Should either prospect be fulfilled, the world of physics would be turned on its ear, many scientists say. That's because the discovery of tiny, local black holes would confirm one of the more outlandish ideas circulating in the physics community these days—that we live in a universe with detectable dimensions beyond the three of space and one of time to which we're accustomed (SN: 2/19/00, p. 122: http://www.sciencenews.org/20000219/bob1.asp).

For that reason and others, the chances that ideas about small, local black holes will prove correct are very small, says Frank Wilczek of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He derides the predictions as "wildly speculative."

Undaunted by the long-shot status of their ideas, some researchers are now gearing up to record signs of tiny black holes, initially by searching for the distinctive particle showers that they presume any miniature black holes in the atmosphere would trigger.

If those searches fail, however, physicists at a powerful new collider expected to begin operating in 2007 would be next in line to claim the prize for being first to observe a black hole. In this case, tiny black holes would form as an aftermath of superhigh-energy, head-on collisions between protons. Some theorists think that black holes might even show up on the first day of operation of the so-called Large Hadron Collider now under construction near Geneva. But if the exotic objects don't appear then or later, even their absence may teach scientists important lessons about the nature of the universe.

Elbow room

It may sound like science fiction, but the notion that we are living in a universe with extra, unseen dimensions has a long history in theoretical physics. Nearly 90 years ago, the Finnish physicist Gunnar Nordström introduced the notion of a fifth dimension as a way to better understand the then-new concept of four-dimensional space-time. A decade later, Swedish physicist Oskar Klein—who drew on ideas from mathematician Theodor Kaluza of Germany—used the concept to unite the forces of electromagnetism and gravity within a single theory.

The quest to unify the two forces became more complicated later in the century when scientists discovered two additional ones—the weak force, which governs the radioactive decay of atoms, and the strong force, which welds protons and neutrons into atomic nuclei.

Since the 1970s, scientific interest in extra dimensions has surged as physicists developed what's now known as string theory. That theory, also called M theory, postulates that all matter and energy is composed of excruciatingly minute filaments called strings and membranous entities called branes. If such objects exist, then every point in our apparently four-dimensional universe is a tiny volume with six or seven extra dimensions. Those volumes are so small, the theory holds, that 10 trillion trillion of them could fit into the space occupied by a single atom. Unfortunately, that tininess would make these dimensions undetectable with current methods.

About 4 years ago, three theorists came up with a bold proposal. Perhaps some of those extra dimensions weren't so tightly confined, suggested Savas Dimopoulos of Stanford University, Nima Arkani-Hamed, now at the University of California, Berkeley, and Georgi Dvali, now at New York University. Given that no experimental evidence precluded the possibility, an extra dimension might be even as relatively huge as a millimeter in radius, or roughly the size of a poppy seed, they argued.

In this new hypothesis of so-called large extra dimensions resides a possible solution to a long-standing puzzle: Why is gravity so much weaker than the other forces? In attempting to resolve the question, the hypothesis raises the remarkable possibility of wee black holes right in our own neighborhood. It's all a matter of how minutely scientists examine gravity.

Although electromagnetism and the weak and strong forces are comparable in strength to each other, they are as much more powerful than gravity as a mountain is larger than one of those fantastically teeny extra dimensions of string theory.

To bridge that vast gap, Dimopoulos and his colleagues hypothesized that not only are there large extra dimensions but that gravity is the only force that permeates all the dimensions. Consequently, "gravity is not really so weak," explains Greg Landsberg of Brown University in Providence, R.I. Rather, "we feel it so weakly because gravity actually lives in many dimensions. . . . Gravity is diluted by this enormous extra space that we don't feel."

Conversely, at length scales not much smaller than the poppy-seed-span of the proposed, relatively large extra dimensions, gravity would operate at a strength comparable to those of the other forces, says Feng, who is also of MIT. In other words, gravity would become a real brute within those very confined boundaries of the extra dimensions. That enormously amplified strength—normally hidden to our four-dimensional view—could scrunch matter and energy into minuscule black holes.

Wilczek notes that by extrapolating from what is already known in physics, theorists have shown that such a boost in the force of gravity may happen. However, it would only take place at truly minuscule scales, not the macroscopic ones that Dimopoulos and his coworkers have proposed.

Also troubling, says Wilczek, is that the existence of large extra dimensions doesn't jibe with certain findings in experimental physics and cosmology. "There are various tricks and dodges you can try" to explain away those discrepancies, he says, "but it's really difficult." For instance, experimenters have found no evidence that protons can spontaneously decay. Yet the theory of large extra dimensions implies that such disintegrations would have been detected already, he asserts.

Dimopoulos disagrees. Because extra dimensions allow particles to interact with each other in novel ways, proton decay "is definitely not an issue," he claims. Although the large-extra-dimensions hypothesis may not provide an exact fit to everything known in physics, it does about as well as other theories on the cutting edge of particle physics, he argues.

Tall order

As a rule of thumb in particle physics, energies correspond to sizes—the smaller the dimension to be probed by smashing particles together the higher are the accelerator energies required. But the mathematics of the large-extra-dimensions hypothesis doesn't dictate exactly what size the surplus dimensions must be. So, Dimopoulos and his colleagues chose a size that loosely corresponds to a collision energy—roughly, a trillion electron volts—that particle colliders are just beginning to reach.

Without that choice comes the tantalizing possibility that only a small increase in sensitivity of certain experiments, or a modest boost in the energy level of others, might unveil a startlingly different realm of physics from the one we now know. If so, "it's going to be magnificent," says Maria Spiropulu of the University of Chicago. "We're going to be seeing all sorts of stuff," including small black holes.

In the Oct. 15, 2001 Physical Review Letters, Landsberg and Dimopoulos predicted that the Large Hadron Collider may crank out a black hole every second. Around the same time last fall, another pair of researchers independently came to similar conclusions.

There's no danger in manufacturing such black holes, claims Andreas Ringwald of the Deutsches Electronen-Synchrotron laboratory in Hamburg, Germany. If black holes are in fact produced in future colliders, that would mean they also have been relentlessly zipping in and out of existence in the atmosphere for billions of years. People "should not be afraid," Ringwald urges. Feng also notes that the little black holes would be too fleeting to gobble anything up.

Wowed by the possibility of creating black holes in a collider that will soon be operating—and tempted by the possibility that cosmic-ray detectors might beat the Large Hadron Collider to the punch—Feng and Alfred D. Shapere of the University of Kentucky in Lexington calculated rates for atmospheric black hole production from cosmic rays. Cosmic rays would produce a few atmospheric black holes somewhere in Earth's atmosphere every minute, Feng and Shapere report in the Jan. 14 Physical Review Letters.

That's enough, they say, for a vast, new cosmic-ray detector called the Pierre Auger Observatory, which is now under construction in Argentina, to detect tens of black holes each year. Other analyses by scientists including Feng and Ringwald indicate that some existing neutrino observatories also could serve as atmospheric black hole detectors.

On the lookout

Directly detecting any kind of black hole would be a major milestone. Although most astrophysicists are convinced that cosmic black holes exist, they can only infer the objects' existence from such evidence as motions of nearby stars and gas and the presence of jets of matter or radiation. There looms the possibility, however, that gravitational ripples in the fabric of space-time itself caused by enormous astronomical black holes may be recorded in the next few years by gravity-wave detectors (SN: 1/8/00, p. 26).

Microscopic black holes would betray their presence in a different way. Despite the reputations of black holes for not letting even light escape (hence their blackness), a quirk of quantum mechanics causes them to emit so-called Hawking radiation, which makes them evaporate, scientists say. What's more, this radiation intensifies as an evaporating black hole shrinks.

While a typical astronomical black hole would give off little illumination and only slowly evaporate, a microscopic black hole about 1,000 times the mass of a proton would appear and then blast apart in just 10–27 seconds—that's one-billionth of one-billionth of one nanosecond.

At the Large Hadron Collider, each explosion of a new, humanmade black hole should "light up the detector like a Christmas tree," Landsberg says. The burst would stand out partly because micro black holes would be among the highest-energy objects ever to be observed in the collider. Their demise would also be remarkable because of the unusual constellation of particles that would fly out, he adds. Some other researchers, however, suspect that black hole decays might prove tougher to pick out from the debris of less-exotic collisions, which would occur a million times more often.

Feng expects that micro black holes would be easily spotted in the atmosphere. The signature to look for would be particle showers that spread out less than those from ordinary cosmic rays do. That's because the impacts most likely to yield black holes would be caused by ultrahigh-energy neutrinos—a predicted but as yet undetected type of cosmic ray—that would interact very little with other matter and therefore would penetrate the atmosphere deeper than other cosmic rays do. Black holes would form as low as the paths of commercial jets, Feng says. The resulting particle showers would therefore fan out less extensively than typical showers do.

In the next few years, scientists will tune in to these and other possible signals of both local and distant black holes. If they're really lucky, they'll detect subtle ripples from far-flung black holes embedded in space-time as we know it, maybe even telltale particle bursts from micro black holes ensconced in hidden dimensions right over their heads.


References and Sources

References:

Dimopoulos, S., and G. Landsberg. 2001. Black holes at the Large Hadron Collider. Physical Review Letters 87(Oct. 15):161602-1.

Feng, J.L., and A.D. Shapere. 2002. Black hole production by cosmic rays. Physical Review Letters 88(Jan. 14):021303-1.

Kowalski, M., A. Ringwald, and H. Tu. 2002. Black holes at neutrino telescopes. Physics Letters B 529(March 14):1-9.

Further Readings:

Weiss, P. 2001. Jiggling the Cosmic Ooze. Science News 159(March 10):152. Available at http://www.sciencenews.org/20010310/bob9.asp.

______. 2000. Hunting for Higher Dimensions. Science News 157(Feb. 19):122. Available at http://www.sciencenews.org/20000219/bob1.asp.

______. 2000. Catch a Wave. Science News 157(Jan. 8):26.

Sources:

Sacas Dimopoulos
Physics Department
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4060

Jonathan L. Feng
Center for Theoretical Physics
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Cambridge, MA 02139

Greg Landsberg
Department of Physics
Brown University
Providence, RI 02912

Andreas Ringwald
Deutsches Elektronen-Synchrotron DESY
Hamburg
Germany

Alfred D. Shapere
Department of Physics
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40502

Maria Spiropulu
Enrico Fermi Institute
University of Chicago
5640 South Ellis Avenue
Chicago, IL 60637

Frank Wilczek
Center for Theoretical Physics
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Cambridge, MA 02139



http://www.sciencenews.org/20020323/bob9.asp

From Science News, Vol. 161, No. 12, March 23, 2002, p. 187.

Copyright (c) 2002 Science Service. All rights reserved.

justagirl
03-26-02, 02:01 PM
One thing I know for sure about the universe is how little we "really" know. The age of earth can even be debated. This would certainly change the future of space and time travel. smiles

Don H
03-27-02, 06:20 AM
interesting

justagirl
03-27-02, 06:43 AM
It's my understanding the study of "black holes" says space travel into it in an attemp to travel to the other side would lead to destruction. However, we haven't studied a black hole in the early stages of it's creation and therefor maybe it it possible to travel through a black hole if you catch it at the early stages. Using that thought proces... What if the universe has extra dimensions .....

3600BC A pilot of an aircrast is flying in another dimension on another planet and suddenly enters a blackhole and finds himself on earth . He no longer knows the way back and is stuck on earth. It would explain alot of things as he would have brought knowledge. It would explain many ancient arts. It would explain why they haven't came back. It would explain a lot of things...I'm not saying it "happened" but I am saying it could have happened if there is any truth to this post. WE don't really know when you think about it.

kmguru
03-27-02, 11:11 AM
If we stretch justagirl's idea a little bit....

Recently I observed an interesting and natural phenomena. After fall season, when the leaves and seeds fell from the trees, we had severe daily winds to carry the leaves and seeds away. I thought to myself, it is a very interesting ecosystem where all the components work together.

What if, as justagirl said, the blackholes are a part of cosmic ecosystem where life is moved from point A to point B to spread out. What-if local space-time anamolies occur all the time that moves plant, people, animals to other part of the universe to a different planet....

A little far out....but probable....

(Q)
03-27-02, 11:38 AM
justagirl

A black hole is a massive collapsed object, most likely a collapsed star. The density of the singularity is mathematically infinite. In other words, if you travel towards a black hole you will not survive. The immense gravity will stretch your molecules and then crush them beyond recognition.

What you’re suggesting is complete science fiction. That much WE do know.

justagirl
03-27-02, 11:38 AM
LOL you guys are going to think I'm nuts but more to think about.....


What if you were from another dimension and found yourself stuck on a different planet. Your radio would not help, you would have no way of contacting the search party except....what most people do when stuck in the wild that are lost... They make a marker hoping that a search party would see it in th air...What if you taught the locals how to build it and they did it thinking you were a God as you have flown in the air in a craft that was magic looking.....

justagirl
03-27-02, 11:49 AM
quote
A black hole is a massive collapsed object, most likely a collapsed star. The density of the singularity is mathematically infinite. In other words, if you travel towards a black hole you will not survive. The immense gravity will stretch your molecules and then crush them beyond recognition. -
----------------------------------------------
That's a theory that is accepted by many people but the truth is we don't know all we need to know about Blacj holes and the universe..The Rutgers research group is part of the Hubble space telescope key project to measure the masses of black holes in nearby galaxies. This work is being complemented by theoretical studies into the creation and evolution of blackholes..

Knowledge should be looked at like a set of encyclopedias.. AS we learn something from The "A's" it can change parts of C, F, H, J, K as the new knowledge was learned or a new theory ontroduced. In short. ALL encyclopedias become obsolete or full of facts or theory that have been proven wrong.

(Q)
03-27-02, 12:19 PM
justagirl

That's a theory that is accepted by many people but the truth is we don't know all we need to know about Blacj holes and the universe..

It is an accepted theory because observations of candidates for black holes are matching predictions made by General Relativity. We know enough about black holes not to be so stupid as to build a ship and travel towards one in the hopes of finding other dimensions.

The Rutgers research group is part of the Hubble space telescope key project to measure the masses of black holes in nearby galaxies. This work is being complemented by theoretical studies into the creation and evolution of blackholes..

So what does the Rutgers research group have to say about black holes? Have they theorized that one can travel to other dimensions through a black hole? Please provide a link.

Knowledge should be looked at like a set of encyclopedias.. AS we learn something from The "A's" it can change parts of C, F, H, J, K as the new knowledge was learned or a new theory ontroduced. In short. ALL encyclopedias become obsolete or full of facts or theory that have been proven wrong.

Practically every one of your posts has the same ‘quasi-paradox’ statement regarding what we know and what we don’t know. It is beginning to get old and very lame. Can you come up with something better?

And by your ‘logic’ we should just chuck out everything we know to date and rely on pseudo-science to set the standard for empirical evidence.

justagirl
03-27-02, 12:27 PM
I didn't offer any of what I said as a theory to be accepted...But this post certainly came from the Rutgers study and of course it hasn't been introduced as a valid theory yet as it is just being studied.. but then again, that is why we research" to learn".. All I am saying is no one can say "I understand everything that we need to know about blackholes"

mythodea
04-01-02, 06:12 PM
what about the ancient sculptures...found in egypt in the time of the pharaohs...and the ones found in mexico..showing a figure carved into the rocks of some kind of propulsion...and a figure depicting a man with some shaped spacesuit!!...so justagirls points...on travling into an early stage blackhole..that leads to other dimensions...and leaving there mark..or seeds!! on habitable planets...could be true!!...but i think we can rule this out...a clue would have been left....unless area 51 has the details..lol...
my question is....can we make a blackhole here?....pennies for your thoughts!!

Adam
04-01-02, 08:13 PM
Welcome mythodea. :)

wet1
04-01-02, 08:39 PM
Welcome to sciforums, mythodea.

mythodea
04-02-02, 07:22 AM
just like to say this is a really great site to debate about anything!!and thankyou all for welcoming me...i hope to get some long awaited answers to some of my questions!! that ive been pondering over the years...so my 1st is to you all...now that we have harnessed the power of unclear fusion...can we make a star in the lab?

wet1
04-02-02, 01:06 PM
Nope, we are not ready to make ministars in labs yet. We still don't have things down. Maybe after we get something like the Tomack generators going and gain a little experience in them. Fussion is still a dream for practical purposes, other then killing someone.

Adam
04-02-02, 01:13 PM
Tokomaks work. Fusion works. Unfortunately it takes about as much energy going in as coming out. Not efficient yet.

http://www.jet.efda.org/index.html

wet1
04-02-02, 01:39 PM
Works, yes…

Commercially, not yet.


A commercial fusion reactor might be ready for use in the middle of the next century.

*here* (http://www.fusion-eur.org/fusion_cd/strategy.htm#strat/)

Thanx for the link, Adam.

zonabi
02-05-04, 12:13 AM
there was some research that proved they found this phenomena also occuring underneath the water in a certain area. strange microscopic rips in the fabric of time and whatnot...

i believe it was in the bermuda triangle area ...oddly enough

Eggsited
02-05-04, 10:53 AM
"Finger print of the Gods"

I've got that book, amazing

"what about the ancient sculptures...found in egypt in the time of the pharaohs...and the ones found in mexico..showing a figure carved into the rocks of some kind of propulsion..."

Norman
02-15-04, 12:20 AM
I didn't offer any of what I said as a theory to be accepted...But this post certainly came from the Rutgers study and of course it hasn't been introduced as a valid theory yet as it is just being studied.. but then again, that is why we research" to learn".. All I am saying is no one can say "I understand everything that we need to know about blackholes"


What's interesting to note is the fact that no one in these series of posts has mentioned anything about "Supermassive" black holes, say on the order of 3.5 billion solar masses or larger.....like the one that supposedly inhabits the core of the monster galaxy, M-87.........Supermassive black holes while they theoretically exist as the Hubble Telescope dramatically demonstrated when it focused it's humble optics on the M-87 galaxy, showed the infamous accretion disk that rotates at a phenomenal rate around the core of this supermassive black hole.........Any comments???

Atta Boy :rolleyes:

Jaredster
02-20-04, 03:07 AM
interesting, I was reading about this somewhere else too.