I have bipolar disorder, and I know the basic theory of the disorder, but it would be great to know a little more in depth. What is really going on in a Bipolar's brain? Are there any significant physical differences? My doc said the EEG test showed some strange patterns, but she never explained what it meant. I'm on medications, and I see a shrink, but apart from the superficial stuff, I don't get any answers to my questions.

I've tried google, but it's very hard to find answers. I wonder why not only my mood changes, but my entire personality. It affects my opinions, relations, long term goals, amount of empathy and so on. It's almost like I have multiple personalities, but still fully aware of it. This is regardless of my mood.

The reason I'm asking is because I read the thread about ADHD, and I was amazed by the good answers and explanations.

Capo

Hi. 'bipolar disorder'?..phony. doesn't exist. is made up by people msquearading as scientists. who seek to impose a 'normal' consensus of acceptable bhaviour,
No wonder you doctor was vague regarding yor perfectly understandable interest in her diagnosis of your 'disease' which as i say is a BOGUS daignosis because 'bipolar disorder' does not exist AS a disease or anyting else. IF you had had a proper disease, like -god forid-cancer. do you tink there would be ANY confusions about what they tell you you have? NO

Cn i recommend you seek this person out. He is much more expert than me about all this, and i find him very approachable. If you car to contact Fred Baughmann he surly wll put yourmind at reat about tis. sorry you -like many others/cpunting-have been lied to, and made to feel theres something wrong wth you....check him out!

Well, Tom Cruise, bipolar disorder does exist. Believe me, I would not have been around without my medications. The mood swings are severe, and that's not just something in my imagination. The reason my doc don't give me any details on why my EEG tests where abnormal is because they don't know exactly what the reason for this is. That's one of the reasons I ask in this forum. Maybe someone would know anything about EEG tests. I did not write this thread only to be flamed and told that my problems are fake. So please, go elsewhere with that scientology crap.

Yes, I too have a bipolar problem and must fight through the manic depression to stay alive at times. Medications are very useful to some but I don't take any for that disorder but I should I know. It is a disease that is very harmful and should be delt with by specialists that know about these things.

Well, Tom Cruise, bipolar disorder does exist. Believe me, I would not have been around without my medications. The mood swings are severe, and that's not just something in my imagination. The reason my doc don't give me any details on why my EEG tests where abnormal is because they don't know exactly what the reason for this is. That's one of the reasons I ask in this forum. Maybe someone would know anything about EEG tests. I did not write this thread only to be flamed and told that my problems are fake. So please, go elsewhere with that scientology crap.

Hello, Capo Crimini,

Yes, you will do quite well to completely ignore Duendy. She actually know nothing - and even worse, what she thinks she DOES know all came to her during LSD trips.

Ok, enough of that. I hope that I can help a little because this fits within one of my chosen professional fields.

EEG tests are commonly run on BP patients but the results of the tests are very mixed and conclusions are often not clear. It's much more common today to do CT scans and MRIs. What they show in most cases is an enlarging of the lateral ventricles which indicates a reduction in the brain's mass. There are also indications of changes in deep tissue as well as a small reduction in the temporal lobe volume.

None of these tests have yet given any direct evidence of what action to take to help but are merely diagnostic tools used to help confirm the presence of the BP disorder. But the work is still ongoing.

Currently, the best tools for diagnosis are still interviews of the patient and family members. As you have already indicated, the mood swings can be very acute and are readily recognizable.

Do you have any particular questions in mind that I might could help with? Hopefully, your doctor has covered most of your concerns but I'll be happy to assist you if you like.

Light, thank you for the reply.

I have a few more questions. Does bipolar disorder affect intelligence or abilities in any way? Personally I sometimes feel the urge to do something creative, especially between mood swings. The funny thing is, I tend to suddenly possess abilities I would usually never have, like drawing. When I look at pictures I've drawn in this state of mind, it seems like the work of another person. Usually I can't draw beyond the level of a 6 year old kid. My parents was almost shocked the first time they saw the pictures. Some people might say this is a product of hypomania, but I'm very calm and focused at that moment.

I can sit for hours just looking at the paper and draw. I don't think at all. It just happens. It's like cheating in a game, things just come easy, and there is no challenge at all.

I wonder about the physical long term effect. Does it affect my lifetime? What about the brain, does it evolve in any way?

How does Bipolar disorder affect empathy? Does antisocial behavior sometimes come with BP?

That's a lot of questions, I know. But thanks again.

Capo

I believe there is such a thing, my friend Jake had it (different from my other, schizophrenic friend). I met him in his manic phase when he hired me for his business. During this phase, he started businesses, wrote press releases and got in the paper, made lots of money, took on the house payments of a friend, sculpted numerous statues, made a pet of a racoon, and generally was very active and happy.

I met him again later on and it turned out he had psychotic episodes where he thought people were putting car bombs under his car and in his VCR, lost his house, became homeless, alcoholic, and was generally depressed. Then he got on several medications and got much better.

When I spoke to him last, he had a nice apartment and his own animal training business and an art business.

It's not just a conspiracy by psychologists to promote a certain definition of "normalcy". Even the sufferers of Bi-polar disorder know something is wrong with them.

Hi. 'bipolar disorder'?..phony. doesn't exist. is made up by people msquearading as scientists. who seek to impose a 'normal' consensus of acceptable bhaviour,
No wonder you doctor was vague regarding yor perfectly understandable interest in her diagnosis of your 'disease' which as i say is a BOGUS daignosis because 'bipolar disorder' does not exist AS a disease or anyting else. IF you had had a proper disease, like -god forid-cancer. do you tink there would be ANY confusions about what they tell you you have? NO

Cn i recommend you seek this person out. He is much more expert than me about all this, and i find him very approachable. If you car to contact Fred Baughmann he surly wll put yourmind at reat about tis. sorry you -like many others/cpunting-have been lied to, and made to feel theres something wrong wth you....check him out!
Please do not waste space on this forum with non-sense. You are no doctor and I doubt you know anything in-depth about the human mind and how it functions. Bi-Polor disorder is very real and I strongly doubt someone who can barely type a correct sentence knows more than the entire medical community. Keep dreaming buddy.

Hi. 'bipolar disorder'?..phony. doesn't exist. is made up by people msquearading as scientists. who seek to impose a 'normal' consensus of acceptable bhaviour,
No wonder you doctor was vague regarding yor perfectly understandable interest in her diagnosis of your 'disease' which as i say is a BOGUS daignosis because 'bipolar disorder' does not exist AS a disease or anyting else. IF you had had a proper disease, like -god forid-cancer. do you tink there would be ANY confusions about what they tell you you have? NO

Cn i recommend you seek this person out. He is much more expert than me about all this, and i find him very approachable. If you car to contact Fred Baughmann he surly wll put yourmind at reat about tis. sorry you -like many others/cpunting-have been lied to, and made to feel theres something wrong wth you....check him out!


May explain some. (http://aolsvc.health.webmd.aol.com/content/article/8/1680_54580?SRC=aolKW=bipolar)

Light, thank you for the reply.

I have a few more questions. Does bipolar disorder affect intelligence or abilities in any way? Personally I sometimes feel the urge to do something creative, especially between mood swings. The funny thing is, I tend to suddenly possess abilities I would usually never have, like drawing. When I look at pictures I've drawn in this state of mind, it seems like the work of another person. Usually I can't draw beyond the level of a 6 year old kid. My parents was almost shocked the first time they saw the pictures. Some people might say this is a product of hypomania, but I'm very calm and focused at that moment.

I can sit for hours just looking at the paper and draw. I don't think at all. It just happens. It's like cheating in a game, things just come easy, and there is no challenge at all.

I wonder about the physical long term effect. Does it affect my lifetime? What about the brain, does it evolve in any way?

How does Bipolar disorder affect empathy? Does antisocial behavior sometimes come with BP?

That's a lot of questions, I know. But thanks again.

Capo

They are all reasonable questions and I can see that you've already guessed some of the answers. And that's very good.

The good news is that there's absolutely no evidence that BP leads to a reduction in intelligence. And there IS some evidence that indicates people with BP can have bursts of creativity during the transition period - the neutral period in the "middle of the swing" you might say. One theory is (and it's only a theory) that the mind is freed from the extreme tensions it's been experiencing and can focus on what it really wants to deal with. Your experience with drawing is fairly common though the period generally does not last as long for most people. Somewhere around three hours, possibly four, is near the average.

People with BP can expect a full, normal lifespan as long as they continue taking their medication. But right here is where a problem often arises. It's not at all uncommon for the patient to feel that they no longer need the medication and will often stop taking it. Then they can endanger themselves by taking risks and doing other things that they wouldn't do otherwise. Especially when they are at either of the extremes.

Even though MRIs and CT scans seem to indicate a loss of brain tissue, there's never been any evidence that brain functions have changed in any way other than the BP condition being present.

Yes, unfortunately antisocial behavior does manifest itself in many people. And there can be a broad range of actions that are usually labeled "inappropriate behavior." And once again, those generally appear at the extremes of the swings. It's fairly easy to see why they happen in the depressed extreme but in the manic mode it's a result of exuberance and something akin to euphoria. Again, they "feel so good" that they do things they would not otherwise.

Looking back over your list, I believe I've covered everything. But I'll still be glad to try and help with anything else.

And I truly hope that I helped a little here.

Hi! I would like to hear you guys (with bipolar) speaking more about that prblem. I never understood very well what is bipolar, so i want you to say what is like to have that problem.

Sometimes i wonder if i have that or if is just depression (fortunatly, depression its being beated in the last months/year): sometimes i am depressed or just very tired with no strenghts for anything. Other times i will get with will for doing many, many things. I want to learn new things, create many projects, start a new life, etc. Then, after a few days, the will for doing such projects wil disapear for complete, even if i am not exactly depressed.

I wonder whats going on.

Bipolarit is like that?

Interesting story, spidergoat :) BP has a lot of negative sides to it, but it is SO fun to be in a manic state, as long as it doesn't lead to suicidal gestures or attempts. (Many bipolars commit suicide during mania) It varies from person to person. In my case, the mania is all good :)

Kazabadan:

A bipolar person has extreme mood swings, mostly both ways. Only a professional can tell if you are really bipolar. From what you are writing about your happy periods, it sounds more like the relieve of not being depressed, rather than a state of hypomania or mania. In mania you loose control of your own impulses, and people around you will describe your mood with words as "extreme" or "crazy". It goes far beyond normal.

But if you really think you are bipolar, you should go see a psychiatrist for further analysis.

thanks Capo. Maybe i am not bipolar, just depressive.

Well, Tom Cruise, bipolar disorder does exist. Believe me, I would not have been around without my medications. The mood swings are severe, and that's not just something in my imagination. The reason my doc don't give me any details on why my EEG tests where abnormal is because they don't know exactly what the reason for this is. That's one of the reasons I ask in this forum. Maybe someone would know anything about EEG tests. I did not write this thread only to be flamed and told that my problems are fake. So please, go elsewhere with that scientology crap.
Ok......if that's te respect i et from you for sincerely sharing my view bout tis wit you i will get the hell outta here. but just let me say this.
i m NOT a scientoloist. i fukin hate scientology. i had an aquaintence in te 70s get sucked into that cult. actually he made me --before he joined in--a par of amazing hi fi speakers which i still use........however, just because they are a bogus cult in their own right, tis does't take away their insight--right in my view--aboutte myth of mental illness.

If you want to--if anyone ants to takemedication, i have no problem wit tat at all. what i am firmly against is a pseuoscience which pretends that behaviour considered non acceptable is a biological disease. there is NO scientific proof of this! UNTIL there IS it is pseudoscience....quackery, false. and people are being misinformed.

I am not saying you dont feel what you do, but i am sayingit is not a proven biological disease, as is cancer, etc.

Now te amalgamation of government, th pharmaceutical industry an psychiatry etc are even targeting our children. see how the sudden growth of te 'biological disease', 'ADHD' has effected more and more children. parents TOO will argue and get all irate like you by people saying what i do--which includes professionals. but rightous indignations isn't proof

When I'm have a good time it is very, very good and I'm ecstatic then I go way way down feeling like commiting suicide at times and feeling that there's no tomorrow. The swing takes a long time though, sometimes up to 3 months to go from high to low but there's a very big differece between the two periods. I have battled through those times and now am settled in at knowing when the swings are happening so that I can fight the depression time much better than before but i'ts still a big problem.

May explain some. (http://aolsvc.health.webmd.aol.com/content/article/8/1680_54580?SRC=aolKW=bipolar)


That's a fairly short reference but a very good one. Thank you for posting it, I believe it explain a good deal that the average person does not know.

Also, I'd like to point out something from that article that few actually know about. It's the period of time between extremes. For some reason, the general public seems to believe that for people with BP it's a simple reversing pattern that alternates regularly between the two states.

That just isn't true at all. They do become more frequent with age but there can - and often are - periods of times that range from months to years between extremes. Often times there can be several periods of depression without a single instance of mania. And it's one of the things that can easily lead to misdiagnosis. Also, when that happens, the diagnosis is generally one of depression.

Ok......if that's te respect i et from you for sincerely sharing my view bout tis wit you i will get the hell outta here. but just let me say this.
i m NOT a scientoloist. i fukin hate scientology. i had an aquaintence in te 70s get sucked into that cult. actually he made me --before he joined in--a par of amazing hi fi speakers which i still use........however, just because they are a bogus cult in their own right, tis does't take away their insight--right in my view--aboutte myth of mental illness.

If you want to--if anyone ants to takemedication, i have no problem wit tat at all. what i am firmly against is a pseuoscience which pretends that behaviour considered non acceptable is a biological disease. there is NO scientific proof of this! UNTIL there IS it is pseudoscience....quackery, false. and people are being misinformed.

I am not saying you dont feel what you do, but i am sayingit is not a proven biological disease, as is cancer, etc.

Now te amalgamation of government, th pharmaceutical industry an psychiatry etc are even targeting our children. see how the sudden growth of te 'biological disease', 'ADHD' has effected more and more children. parents TOO will argue and get all irate like you by people saying what i do--which includes professionals. but rightous indignations isn't proof
psychology is hardly a pseudoscience. and disorders are not based on what is 'acceptable.' disorders cause a person to act a way that is not normal and detracts from their quality of life. it is not a disease, or we would call it such. there are a few who will diagnose incorrectly, but that doesnt mean that they are all wrong. your conjecture that bipolar and adhd diagnosis is based on cultural normalities is ignorant. you do not know the reasons and symptoms that cause a psychiatrist to diagnose a disorder. there is scientific proof that something irregular is occuring in the brain of people with psychological disorders, and the medication attempts to put these irregularities in balance so that the person is has a greater ability to think with clarity.

If there's a BI-polar disorder, does that mean there might be a TRI-polar disorder, too? How 'bout a QUADRA-polar disorder? Maybe we can just keep inventing new and wondrous diseases for everything and anything?!

Baron Max

That's a fairly short reference but a very good one. Thank you for posting it, I believe it explain a good deal that the average person does not know.

Also, I'd like to point out something from that article that few actually know about. It's the period of time between extremes. For some reason, the general public seems to believe that for people with BP it's a simple reversing pattern that alternates regularly between the two states.

That just isn't true at all. They do become more frequent with age but there can - and often are - periods of times that range from months to years between extremes. Often times there can be several periods of depression without a single instance of mania. And it's one of the things that can easily lead to misdiagnosis. Also, when that happens, the diagnosis is generally one of depression.

In my case, I can sometimes go approximately a couple of weeks (or a month) without any symptoms. It's hard to deal with when the mood swings are very frequently though, but this is also an individual matter. Frequent mood swings are also known as "rapid cycling".

I don't think anyone has the same mood swings pattern, but by all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

Capo

In my case, I can sometimes go approximately a couple of weeks (or a month) without any symptoms. It's hard to deal with when the mood swings are very frequently though, but this is also an individual matter. Frequent mood swings are also known as "rapid cycling".

I don't think anyone has the same mood swings pattern, but by all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

Capo

You're absolutely correct. The patterns vary greatly between individuals. In fact, some never exhibit a specific pattern at all.

And I understand perfectly what you mean about rapid cycling. And even though the person experiencing them may not go to the extremes that others do, that fact that they occur so often can be very debilitating.

Anyone who is accused of having bipolar disorder needs to have his diet and his physical health checked thoroughly. The perception that this is another phony disorder is caused largely (in my opinion) by the perception that psychologists diagnose it by use of a written test, a short interview, and whether the patient "responds" to drugs. I had the mood swings when I used to drink a lot of orange juice. They ended for quite some time when I quit drinking it, and this kind of sensitivity is known to doctors.

I'm afraid that my current problems will have to be referred to a cardiologist.

Please do not waste space on this forum with non-sense.

me::i am not speaking 'nonesense'

You are no doctor and I doubt you know anything in-depth about the human mind and how it functions.

me::are YOU a doctor, and since whe hastis place been the sol reserve of doctors. To show up the sca of all this one doesn't need to be a doctor. I have read some very professional pople who are saying the same thing. you best read them andkeep up.

Bi-Polor disorder is very real and I strongly doubt someone who can barely type a correct sentence knows more than the entire medical community.

me::dont be so stupid. whata my fukin typin got to do wit anything. some of the most fluent psychiatrists and doctors are part of te very fukin scam i am non about.

Keep dreaming buddy.

in this post you have said abosultely nothing to prove a point. just ad hominem. whose wastin space?

psychology is hardly a pseudoscience. and disorders are not based on what is 'acceptable.' disorders cause a person to act a way that is not normal and detracts from their quality of life.

me::'disorders' are called so by that so they can be legallydruged and make the pharma people even more fatter than the grreedy sods are.. and who are you or anyone to say what is normal and then drug it? WHEN there is no scientific proof to back up your claim it is a disease?

it is not a disease, or we would call it such. there are a few who will diagnose incorrectly, but that doesnt mean that they are all wrong. your conjecture that bipolar and adhd diagnosis is based on cultural normalities is ignorant.

me::you are saying it is a dis-order. why dont you say this culture is disorder? why do you pick on people who are victims of this culture and their behaviour may refelct it. but no you accuse them of having a disorder as though itis a disease and then drug it. i believe psychologists are or have these powers now to drug people?

you do not know the reasons and symptoms that cause a psychiatrist to diagnose a disorder.

me::yes. they are phony.

there is scientific proof that something irregular is occuring in the brain of people with psychological disorders, and the medication attempts to put these irregularities in balance so that the person is has a greater ability to think with clarity.

where is your 'proof' then? present it here

Anyone who is accused of having bipolar disorder needs to have his diet and his physical health checked thoroughly. The perception that this is another phony disorder is caused largely (in my opinion) by the perception that psychologists diagnose it by use of a written test, a short interview, and whether the patient "responds" to drugs. I had the mood swings when I used to drink a lot of orange juice. They ended for quite some time when I quit drinking it, and this kind of sensitivity is known to doctors.

I'm afraid that my current problems will have to be referred to a cardiologist.

The condition of our psyche is indeed affected by what we eat and our physical health. From my experience, the doctors and psychologists were very thorough in their "research". It took about 2-3 months before they gave me the diagnosis, so I was not something they just labeled for fun, without the proper "mapping" of my mood swings. I'm in good physical shape, and I consume the right vitamines and nutrition.

It sounds like your doctors may have genuinely been what my doctors pretended to be, Capo. When they did me, it was total BS from one end to the other.

where is your 'proof' then? present it here
you really need to drop the attitude that arbitrary professions are created for the sole purpose of decieving people to get money. i think large corporations like that would have been discovered for what they are and would be bankrupt. another thing, psychiatrists are not a single organisation, there are thousands of individual practitioners, i doubt every single one of them is purposefully decieving the public. that being said, i know there are some who do purposefully trick patients into believing they have a disorder. and there are an even greater amount who diagnose wrongly, especially in children. but its nowhere near the precentage of psychiatrists who are actually good at their job.

read this article and tell me bipolar disorder is a scam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-polar_disorder

most people get along fine and can take care of themselves, not worry about things for overly long. but there are some (i know i've got a tendancy in this area) that have a hard time just coping during an ordinary day. depression, mood swings, schizophrenia, theres many different disorders that people have due to an inbalance of the chemicals in ther brain. drugs prescribed for these disorders are specifically made to put those inbalances back in balance and therefore normalizing the persons mind. there are also theraputic ways to balance the chemical makeup, but it is longer and harder to do. but it still takes a psychiatrist to figure out what the problem is.

perhaps you have a disorder that causes you to obsess about conspiracies.

About bipolarity and depression, etc, etc the real problem are doctors and psychologists, etc.

When they find that problem on someone, they tend to classify and face that person, not as Mister Sam or Miss Daisy but for the name of the problem. I mean, they do not see it as the person they are facing but ad a patient with a disorder. They also face the problem as a very bad one, instead of being positive.

All this factors together will create tension on the patient and he will start to see himself as "Me, the one with depression [or bipolarity, etc]" instead of "Me, Sam". Do u get what i mean?

So, they will focus on the problem, they will see themselves as a problem instead of a person with a life to live on, and that wil increase the problem.

Thats just my idea about how things happen. what do u think?

Roy, I don't want this thread to become about me also, but a lot of these conditions are forced on people by unnatural living conditions and by other people.

That's a fairly short reference but a very good one. Thank you for posting it, I believe it explain a good deal that the average person does not know.

Also, I'd like to point out something from that article that few actually know about. It's the period of time between extremes. For some reason, the general public seems to believe that for people with BP it's a simple reversing pattern that alternates regularly between the two states.

That just isn't true at all. They do become more frequent with age but there can - and often are - periods of times that range from months to years between extremes. Often times there can be several periods of depression without a single instance of mania. And it's one of the things that can easily lead to misdiagnosis. Also, when that happens, the diagnosis is generally one of depression.

Good for mentioning the areas "in-between". My mother is bi-polar so the "transtional" phases from one extreme to another varies between different episodes. It isn't a case for most where the changes occur within quick occurences. And many people do misinteprt depression as the problem without looking into the manic episodes, even if they don't come nearly as often as the depression episodes. And that is why it's a disease not as easily recognizable as others may think.

There are physical causes, but there is a way of thinking involved. I don't know how anyone can handle it. Any time the slightest little thing goes wrong, it's automagically hell on Earth, a rupture in the space-time continuum that lets demons in, the end of the world if only we should be so lucky so we won't have this happen again, and so on. People are forcibly educated into this way of thinking. They are taught that it is the end of the world if their guilt is for so small a crime as stealing a cookie. Bipolar is the expression of a dichotomy. Either everything is all bad or it is all good with no middle. Of course, universal guilt has to play a part. If everyone around you is acting like a nutcase, it is because you personally made them do it, so there's universal guilt and magical thinking, not that universal guilt isn't magical thinking.

When you can see even for a few moments at a time that life is just life, that it is process and that it has its own equilibrium states, things get better. You might still be listed as insane if people notice that you've disabled your hot-buttons, and you thought that it was exactly what you were supposed to do, but once again you find out that's "not really."

About bipolarity and depression, etc, etc the real problem are doctors and psychologists, etc.

When they find that problem on someone, they tend to classify and face that person, not as Mister Sam or Miss Daisy but for the name of the problem. I mean, they do not see it as the person they are facing but ad a patient with a disorder. They also face the problem as a very bad one, instead of being positive.

All this factors together will create tension on the patient and he will start to see himself as "Me, the one with depression [or bipolarity, etc]" instead of "Me, Sam". Do u get what i mean?

So, they will focus on the problem, they will see themselves as a problem instead of a person with a life to live on, and that wil increase the problem.

Thats just my idea about how things happen. what do u think?
but there is still a problem. the person goes to a psychologist because they have a problem with the quality of their life. they want to remedy this. most of the time it can be helped by simple, yet drawn out therapy, and talking about it, having epiphanies helps speed the process up. but most of the time people want a quick solution and decide to take medication that is meant to re-balance the chemicals in their brain.

40 or so years ago, I had a close friend who was manic depressive, which was the original term for bipolar disorder (Political correctness seems to invent new terms regularly). He was very intelligent. He was a trainee programmer under me, and learned faster than any of the others. He also showed intelligence in fields other than programming, and was an interesting likable person. He was often a guest at my home and got along well with my wife and children.

There is no doubt in my mind that the bipolar disorder is a real mental illness. I believe that it is some extreme variant of normal behavior. A little more bipolar behavior than normal and a person is described as having mood swings, which is no big deal. I do not think that a person with a zero level of bipolar behavior could function. The manic behavior seems related to ambition, optimism, and planning for the future, while the depressive stage seems related to pessimism, mishap avoidance, and being unhappy when something goes wrong. If neither the manic nor the depressive state is too far from normal, the behaviors might be necessary for successfully coping with life. At best a person with a zero level would never have a friend because his behavior and conversation would be predictable and monotonous.

When he took his medication, George functioned very well and few noticed any behavioral anomalies. Unfortunately, he regularly decided to not take the medication: Partially due to not liking the side effects and partially due to thinking that he no longer needed the medication.

For many years, I acted as a non directive therapist who listened to him and sympathized. I seldom gave advice, except when he told me about some plan which would cause trouble.

A good therapist might have been able to help him. I was always able to keep him out of trouble when he confided in me. Sometimes it seemed necessary to meet him in person, but usually I was able to talk him out of some grandiose manic plan or talk him out of self destructive depressive behavior.

In his manic state, he was amazing and could be very convincing. He once managed to get an interview with the president of IBM by claiming that he had made a major break through in programming techniques. He claimed that he would talk to nobody but the president due to a fear of having his ideas stolen by some ambitious underling.

After an hour or so with the president, he was introduced to some high level programmers, who realized that he had mental problems. Unfortunately, he got violent when they dismissed his concepts and he ended up in jail. He called me and I managed to get him out after making some phone calls and taking responsibility for getting him to his shrink.

A few years after he lost his job with the company I worked for, he stopped calling. When I had not heard from him for a month or so, I tried to get in touch, but never discovered what had happened to him.

For me, I'm currently on social security disability in the U.S. for major depression. However, because no anti-depressant has ever helped, my doctor recently changed my diagnosis to bi-polar disorder (with a major in depression). He says there is a type of bi-polar where the person is almost always depressed. Thus, if I have a manic phase, it is very, very shortlived (as in a few hours max). I tried one medication for bi-polar and it really screwed with my sleep (I couldn't) and other things, so I asked to be taken off of it.

Currently, I'm taking another anti-depressant (Remeron - supposedly a last-resort type of anti-depressant) and Neurontin as a mood stabilizer, and this latest combination doesn't seem to work any better than any of the other combinations I've been on for the last 7 years. I've even researched shock therapy (Electro-Convulsive Therapy) as a last last-resort recently, but it seems like you have to have it done every 3 months or so and for a lot of people it just makes things worse, so that's out for me. I am at my wit's end and feel like I will never feel happy again. I hope meds and counselling work for you. They haven't for me. Then again, if you have a spouse and children, or a job you really like, or at least one thing you can really get excited about, you may have a better chance at getting better. Good luck.

For me, I'm currently on social security disability in the U.S. for major depression. However, because no anti-depressant has ever helped, my doctor recently changed my diagnosis to bi-polar disorder (with a major in depression). He says there is a type of bi-polar where the person is almost always depressed. Thus, if I have a manic phase, it is very, very shortlived (as in a few hours max). I tried one medication for bi-polar and it really screwed with my sleep (I couldn't) and other things, so I asked to be taken off of it.

Currently, I'm taking another anti-depressant (Remeron - supposedly a last-resort type of anti-depressant) and Neurontin as a mood stabilizer, and this latest combination doesn't seem to work any better than any of the other combinations I've been on for the last 7 years. I've even researched shock therapy (Electro-Convulsive Therapy) as a last last-resort recently, but it seems like you have to have it done every 3 months or so and for a lot of people it just makes things worse, so that's out for me. I am at my wit's end and feel like I will never feel happy again. I hope meds and counselling work for you. They haven't for me. Then again, if you have a spouse and children, or a job you really like, or at least one thing you can really get excited about, you may have a better chance at getting better. Good luck.

Hello, Cotton,

Really sorry to hear that. I know that having to live with it can be very, very tough. I feel fairly sure that you've already tried the lithium-based medications (like Eskalith, Lithane, Lithonate, Lithotabs). Did they simply not work for you or were the side-effects the main problem?

Hello, Cotton,

Really sorry to hear that. I know that having to live with it can be very, very tough. I feel fairly sure that you've already tried the lithium-based medications (like Eskalith, Lithane, Lithonate, Lithotabs). Did they simply not work for you or were the side-effects the main problem?

To be honest, I've never had a doctor that recommended or was very enthusiastic about the lithium type drugs. I've asked my doctors about lithium over the years, but they always seemed to shrug it off. It seemed taboo or something. I've never tried it, or any of the others you've mentioned. I did ask my new doctor about it last month, and he seemed more receptive than most, but we decided to give the Remeron a little more time. I've been on things like Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, Zoloft, Depecote, a couple of anti-psychotic meds like Abilify and, oh I can't remember the other, and a few others that I can't remember off the top of my sleepy head either. Can't remember the name of the BP med I took either.

I always noticed celebrities on Larry King Live saying that they took Lithium, and that's why I always asked my doctors about it. Glad you reminded me about them again though. Funny that I asked my doctor about it last month too. Know how it affects a person's sleep generally? And I did figure that the side effects were why my doctors weren't too enthusiastic about prescribing it, though I've never actually researched them. Different for everybody, I guess. Never know till you try. I'm at a point where I just want a Thorazine drip. :(

For me, I'm currently on social security disability in the U.S. for major depression. However, because no anti-depressant has ever helped, my doctor recently changed my diagnosis to bi-polar disorder (with a major in depression). He says there is a type of bi-polar where the person is almost always depressed. Thus, if I have a manic phase, it is very, very shortlived (as in a few hours max). I tried one medication for bi-polar and it really screwed with my sleep (I couldn't) and other things, so I asked to be taken off of it.

Currently, I'm taking another anti-depressant (Remeron - supposedly a last-resort type of anti-depressant) and Neurontin as a mood stabilizer, and this latest combination doesn't seem to work any better than any of the other combinations I've been on for the last 7 years. I've even researched shock therapy (Electro-Convulsive Therapy) as a last last-resort recently, but it seems like you have to have it done every 3 months or so and for a lot of people it just makes things worse, so that's out for me. I am at my wit's end and feel like I will never feel happy again. I hope meds and counselling work for you. They haven't for me. Then again, if you have a spouse and children, or a job you really like, or at least one thing you can really get excited about, you may have a better chance at getting better. Good luck.
all i wll say is from the heart. you are damaging your brain. ask your doctor for PROOF tat you have a biological disease. i bet he wnt be able to provie it. why? cause it is a scam. i m not saying you dont feel they way you claim. what i AM saying is, it is NOT a biological disease like you ar being told.
BUT you are an dult and have freedom to believe or not believe. itis thereforeup o you if you buy what that scam sells you

all i wll say is from the heart. you are damaging your brain. ask your doctor for PROOF tat you have a biological disease. i bet he wnt be able to provie it. why? cause it is a scam. i m not saying you dont feel they way you claim. what i AM saying is, it is NOT a biological disease like you ar being told.
BUT you are an dult and have freedom to believe or not believe. itis thereforeup o you if you buy what that scam sells you

Duendy, just how is it that you know for a fact that it isn't biological? Because you are so paranoid that you think the whole world is out to rip everyone off? Or because you never really studied the subject? Or what?

all i wll say is from the heart. you are damaging your brain. ask your doctor for PROOF tat you have a biological disease. i bet he wnt be able to provie it. why? cause it is a scam. i m not saying you dont feel they way you claim. what i AM saying is, it is NOT a biological disease like you ar being told.
BUT you are an dult and have freedom to believe or not believe. itis thereforeup o you if you buy what that scam sells you

You been reading the Mission Earth Dekalogy, duendy? Sometimes I agree with you. I do feel like all the different meds, all the combinations, all the changes are gonna probably do me some harm in the long run, but I also know how much worse I am when I don't take them. They help some. They keep me one level above suicidal or homicidal, I think, but other than that they don't make me want to live. I know there is no "magic pill," but still, they seem to help some people. Who knows, really. I do think the field of psychiatry is on to something, but it will be a while before they are able to properly diagnose something like depression or bipolar or ADD or ADHD or PTSD in the fashion you, and I, think they should be able to, especially like they are now (key word now) able to diagnose cancer or liver disease, etc. Shit, penicillin was only discovered about 65 years ago. Try to give them a little slack. Cool?

To be honest, I've never had a doctor that recommended or was very enthusiastic about the lithium type drugs. I've asked my doctors about lithium over the years, but they always seemed to shrug it off. It seemed taboo or something. I've never tried it, or any of the others you've mentioned. I did ask my new doctor about it last month, and he seemed more receptive than most, but we decided to give the Remeron a little more time. I've been on things like Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, Zoloft, Depecote, a couple of anti-psychotic meds like Abilify and, oh I can't remember the other, and a few others that I can't remember off the top of my sleepy head either. Can't remember the name of the BP med I took either.

I always noticed celebrities on Larry King Live saying that they took Lithium, and that's why I always asked my doctors about it. Glad you reminded me about them again though. Funny that I asked my doctor about it last month too. Know how it affects a person's sleep generally? And I did figure that the side effects were why my doctors weren't too enthusiastic about prescribing it, though I've never actually researched them. Different for everybody, I guess. Never know till you try. I'm at a point where I just want a Thorazine drip. :(

Then it really IS worth looking at. Seriously. No, sleep problems are not a side-effect of lithium. Stay with your current try (it takes three to four weeks to tell if it's helping) and if it doesn't work out, remind him of the lithium again. Studies I've seen have shown that it works well for about 80% of the paitents.

Then it really IS worth looking at. Seriously. No, sleep problems are not a side-effect of lithium. Stay with your current try (it takes three to four weeks to tell if it's helping) and if it doesn't work out, remind him of the lithium again. Studies I've seen have shown that it works well for about 80% of the paitents.


I will, don't worry. I'm not ready to give up just yet. For me, now, I give most new meds at least 2-3 months. Some, like the Effexor, actually had some positive effects for about the first 3 months, then my body seemed to get used to them and the effects wore off. As far as the sleep goes, I don't sleep well to begin with, so that's why I asked. Anyway, thanks a lot for your time and input. I'm fairly stable, just never very happy. So don't think I'm actually gonna go jump off that tower downtown just yet. :)

You been reading the Mission Earth Dekalogy, duendy? Sometimes I agree with you. I do feel like all the different meds, all the combinations, all the changes are gonna probably do me some harm in the long run, but I also know how much worse I am when I don't take them. They help some. They keep me one level above suicidal or homicidal, I think, but other than that they don't make me want to live. I know there is no "magic pill," but still, they seem to help some people. Who knows, really. I do think the field of psychiatry is on to something, but it will be a while before they are able to properly diagnose something like depression or bipolar or ADD or ADHD or PTSD in the fashion you, and I, think they should be able to, especially like they are now (key word now) able to diagnose cancer or liver disease, etc. Shit, penicillin was only discovered about 65 years ago. Try to give them a little slack. Cool?
hey mate....... i am bad with naes. are you te dude tat got banned for a week. that tells the idios they are idiots straight up...hehe? i missed you ifits you

about this subject tho. put it this way. checkout http://www.mindfreedom.org they also have a forum. it is for psychiatric survivors etc and is led by them. whe you visit site chackout in its archives about the Hungerstrike someof them went through. reason? to challenge te APA to prove mentall illness was biologically caused. it is very intersting to look at!

also, checkout Dr Fred Baughman he is Neurologist and is very against te mth of mental illness. he has challneged the MAJOR top layers in the mental illness myth game to prove what they claim--ie., that mental illness is a real boni fidi biologica disease and has BEEN IGNORED!!!

what does thi tell us?

it tell sme, they cannot prove it

i understand your predicament. tat you really are suffering, and i am sorry. but we hav to understandand see throughthis myth, oterwise you are adding to your problems by adding toxic drugs to it which damage te organism

anyways checout mindfreedom. people tere hav experiences like you and are savvy to what i say. unlike some of the smart arse trolls here!

Duendy

it is obvious that some people Do suffer greatly from this affliction and even You concede to that, but on the other hand, you keep insisting that they are Not suffering from a disease well WTF is it then?

Duendy

it is obvious that some people Do suffer greatly from this affliction and even You concede to that, but on the other hand, you keep insisting that they are Not suffering from a disease well WTF is it then?
NOT a biological disease as i keep saying.
IF a person is so down that they cant move, and want to commit suicide, yes, that is dis-ease, bu it is NOT A biological disease. why? because there exists no actual proof thqt it is a biological disease. so speculating...what could it be?

well. would you say that our lifestyles are benevolent?....would you say that some of the traps we make for pourselves are good for us? that te system isn't oppressive? that people dont deny their misery cause they have no reference pointto even examine it?...it is complex why people feel certian forms of distress, cause life has been made to be so complex. many eple dont even realize WHY they are unhappy. UP ops the bio shrink to tell them...'why you have A biological illness, and guess what? i have te pills, and you must take tem for......ever, or nearly ever'

whati am trying to get through, which is very interelated wit tis myth of mental illness is materialistic science itself. for tis myth of mental illness comes straight from this myth of materialistic science. the latter has taken all meaning out of life via its materialistic propaganda. tus life has been made vaccuous. consumerism is god, profit is god. violence proliferates as people are despearate and want illegal drugs, possessions, wars are waged against pople. all kinds of shit is goin down

now......in that awful scenario. many pople will of course show distress, in tis 'dead, meaningless' world. they are told that they are mrely biochemical machines. just here to produce for te good of te State's GNP, and then die. that's it. tat being old sucks...oh shit i could go on and on wid tis

up pops shrink pattronized by the fukin evil big pharma, and tey make serios buks outta your my her his, and the chidren's misery. how? by claiming they know what's wrong wid u, and they got the 'meds' th EC fuckinevil T, the LOBOTOMY etc to 'cure it'. dont believe them is what i am sying/ dont believe ME. explore about this!

Ok, I can see where you're coming from but as Light say's, "I hope that I can help a little because this fits within one of my chosen professional fields.

EEG tests are commonly run on BP patients but the results of the tests are very mixed and conclusions are often not clear. It's much more common today to do CT scans and MRIs. What they show in most cases is an enlarging of the lateral ventricles which indicates a reduction in the brain's mass. There are also indications of changes in deep tissue as well as a small reduction in the temporal lobe volume.

None of these tests have yet given any direct evidence of what action to take to help but are merely diagnostic tools used to help confirm the presence of the BP disorder. But the work is still ongoing.

Currently, the best tools for diagnosis are still interviews of the patient and family members. As you have already indicated, the mood swings can be very acute and are readily recognizable."

This proves that there is a physical effect going on in the brain. The way that You put it is that the subject is somehow allergic to life or averse to the problems of living in the modern world. While so much of this may be true, it is also true for a far greater number of people that do Not suffer from any delibitating mental or emotional problems, but what I want to know from you, is how do we classify these conditions that you say are Not diseases, and how do we treat the one suffering?

sorry. icannot take 'Light' seriously. he himself doesn't seem serious. all he's dnt while he's been here is troll me. someone like that i dont trust

tose tests you mention. from what i have learnt when you see actuall organic change it is dude to the medication, rather tan PRE-medication!

what i WANT? isfor people to be treated wit respect. not lide to and damaged even further with toxic 'medicatation'--which isn't medication cause there aint A disease in te first place. first principle of medicine is 'do no harm'......right?? qwwell eerytime they misinform and drug people they Do do harm

for alterantive ways i suggest you listen to those at www.mindfreedom.org

some there dont totally discount 'medicaton' IFthat is chosen by the individual wit all te info available about what we arediscusing, and also healthy food, lifestyles, having someone to talk to, etc........but looking inot all tis means we must lso look at cultur itself and make radical changes indeed

Hi. 'bipolar disorder'?..phony. doesn't exist. is made up by people msquearading as scientists. who seek to impose a 'normal' consensus of acceptable bhaviour,
No wonder you doctor was vague regarding yor perfectly understandable interest in her diagnosis of your 'disease' which as i say is a BOGUS daignosis because 'bipolar disorder' does not exist AS a disease or anyting else. IF you had had a proper disease, like -god forid-cancer. do you tink there would be ANY confusions about what they tell you you have? NO

Cn i recommend you seek this person out. He is much more expert than me about all this, and i find him very approachable. If you car to contact Fred Baughmann he surly wll put yourmind at reat about tis. sorry you -like many others/cpunting-have been lied to, and made to feel theres something wrong wth you....check him out!
Not knowing anything about bipolarity (and don't care to!) I can comment that as a general trend, people have an immense blind faith in science --- even when it doesn't offer them much, and can be very offended if you question that faith. It's no better than religion.

I have personally been abused by medical science when I sought treatment for my stomach problems that are partly caused by 'science' and the pollution it causes. And after seeking treatment for years in vain, I have found solace in the simple treatments offered by ancient systems based on nature .

Not knowing anything about bipolarity (and don't care to!) I can comment that as a general trend, people have an immense blind faith in science --- even when it doesn't offer them much, and can be very offended if you question that faith. It's no better than religion.

I have personally been abused by medical science when I sought treatment for my stomach problems that are partly caused by 'science' and the pollution it causes. And after seeking treatment for years in vain, I have found solace in the simple treatments offered by ancient systems based on nature .
people have blind faith in anything that has any kind of authority. it isn't just science. anyone who seems official is going to be taken seriously by at least a few people because of that, whether they are right or wrong. the problem doesn't lie solely with science.

what i find disappointing (to say the least) in humanity today is that we get too hooked on an idea (like science) and forget why we came up with it in the first place. i think that many people have gone the wrong way with science, causing this "materialistic science", as duendy would put it, to start rise, pushing out true science. i agree that nothing should be taken for granted, even science, but i think that is the underlying ideal behind the scientific method, or at least should be. its just that the majority of people don't seem to see that way. they're too caught up in making a buck and helping themselves, rather than the greater good.

not lide to and damaged even further with toxic 'medicatation'--which isn't medication cause there aint A disease in te first place. first principle of medicine is 'do no harm'......right?? qwwell eerytime they misinform and drug people they Do do harm
medication isn't just for disease. disease is something you contract through another biological entity, like a bacteria or virus. mental illness concerns chemical balance and brain structure. its caused and/or magnified by a combination of genetics, lifestyle, environment, and sometimes injuries or other illnesses. the symptoms a person experiences are related to the physical makeup and processes of the brain. the medication given is scientifically theorized (and accurately shown) to put the patient's brain chemistry into a more balanced level, compared to how the brain normally functions.

that said, i don't advocate overuse of these drugs, and i think it would be better if some people tried to overcome their disorder through therapy and willpower rather than drugs. there are way too many bad parents who are putting their kids on medication unnecessarily. but many people with mental illnesses are in such a state that it is impossible to have any kind of normal life without medication.

NOT a biological disease as i keep saying.
IF a person is so down that they cant move, and want to commit suicide, yes, that is dis-ease, bu it is NOT A biological disease. why? because there exists no actual proof thqt it is a biological disease. so speculating...what could it be?

well. would you say that our lifestyles are benevolent?....would you say that some of the traps we make for pourselves are good for us? that te system isn't oppressive? that people dont deny their misery cause they have no reference pointto even examine it?...it is complex why people feel certian forms of distress, cause life has been made to be so complex. many eple dont even realize WHY they are unhappy. UP ops the bio shrink to tell them...'why you have A biological illness, and guess what? i have te pills, and you must take tem for......ever, or nearly ever'

whati am trying to get through, which is very interelated wit tis myth of mental illness is materialistic science itself. for tis myth of mental illness comes straight from this myth of materialistic science. the latter has taken all meaning out of life via its materialistic propaganda. tus life has been made vaccuous. consumerism is god, profit is god. violence proliferates as people are despearate and want illegal drugs, possessions, wars are waged against pople. all kinds of shit is goin down

now......in that awful scenario. many pople will of course show distress, in tis 'dead, meaningless' world. they are told that they are mrely biochemical machines. just here to produce for te good of te State's GNP, and then die. that's it. tat being old sucks...oh shit i could go on and on wid tis

up pops shrink pattronized by the fukin evil big pharma, and tey make serios buks outta your my her his, and the chidren's misery. how? by claiming they know what's wrong wid u, and they got the 'meds' th EC fuckinevil T, the LOBOTOMY etc to 'cure it'. dont believe them is what i am sying/ dont believe ME. explore about this!

It's very difficult to decide what to say to you, Duendy. Time and again you've demonstrated, just as you have here, that your thinking is less than coherent.

Your primary problem is twofold: you think the whole world is run by a shadowy, covert group who is pulling all the strings and making everyone react in a way that fits perfectly with their plans. Absurd.

And the other is that there is a huge conspiracy between all the doctors and the drug companies. Equally absurd.

But no one is ever going to talk you out of it because for all of your claims to have an open mind, you actually have THE most closed mind of anyone here.

And that brings up another thing. In another thread (about pseudo-skeptics) you seem to agree with the thought that far too many skeptics are people talking outside of their general field of expertise and knowledge. And then look what you do! What makes you "qualified" to pass any judgments on the medical profession? How many years have YOU spent studying it?

And you would readily deny the treatment that has allowed hundreds of thousands of people to live more normal, functioning lives. How did you acquire such great, all-encompassing knowledge? And there have been others in this very thread that have testified as to how it helped them. And their same story is multiplied all across the world.

So... rather than listen to me and others who have described their experiences, we should listen to paranoid, delusional Duendy? I doubt anybody is falling for that one!

duendy, I see where you're coming from. I have felt the same way too. It really pisses me off when I ask a doctor "How do I know whether this new med will be any better than the last, when the last one did almost nothing except cause me side effects and didn't help with the depression at all?" and they answer "Everyone is different. All we can do is keep trying new meds until we find one that works for you."

Well, after 7 years of trying new meds for depression, new combinations of meds for depression, and not having any of them do much more than cause me to sleep even worse at night or get more restless or cause me to feel like a zombie all day, of course I've questioned whether they really know what the fucking hell they are doing.

Then you here stories of pharmaceutical companies giving incentives to doctors to prescribe their brand of medication for depression, and yes, I don't doubt that the bottom line for some doctors is money. Not me or my health.

I think it's this type of thing that causes me to be angry/depressed in the first place. Rampant corruption. Rampant. In the U.S. for sure. From the dollar being god. With politicians and big business buying into the fact that the dollar is god, while lying to our faces with ever increasing frequecy. Not all, but a lot. Democracy in Iraq? My ass. Capitalism in Iraq, more like. Democracy is such a good and acceptable cover story. Bush and Cheney can kiss my ass.

Anyway, off my little soap box. I agree with all of you about the meds. I know they are doing my body harm. I also know they do help a little. However, I know the best thing I could do is start exercising, eating healthier and getting out into society again and socializing whether I like it or not. Maybe after a few months of this, try a job again. Force my way through the pain and get on with my life.

My biggest hang up? Doing just that, those things, only to be a part of a society that I despise. A materialistic, corrupt, extremely competitive society that has forgotten what it is like to honestly have and uphold different values, and focus on living, as opposed to earning a buck for yourself while making several bucks for the machine. Being human capital. Human capital for a Wal-Mart, say. Right now and always, I think I would rather be dead.

The people who knock science, and for that matter big business, amuse me.

Without science most of us would not be alive today. It was only a few hundred years ago that life expectancy was about 40 years (you might be less than 40, but your parents, grandparents, et cetera could have died ending your line). Until about 50 years ago, if you had heart trouble you were dead. Infectious diseases killed people off in droves prior to antibiotics discovered about the time of WW2. How would you like surgery without anaesthetics, which discovered less than 200 years ago?

As for non-medical science, how would you like to do without autos, refrigerators, air conditioning, computers, household appliances, airplanes, indoor plumbing, et cetera?

BTW: Who do you think are responsible for all the materialistic items like autos, appliances, computers, et cetera? Non other than the maligned robber barons of the industrial revolution who used the knowledge of engineers and scientists to create an industrial civilization.

If everything was left up to the best efforts of the average person, we would still be living in caves, cooking our food over an open fire. The average person owes everything to the scientists and the businessmen.

OK Light.....and also Roy, but more forcefully to Light who continually pushes his opinion on me without any sources to back it up.

So Light...what can i do hey? i am an artist, not a Neuroscientist, shrink, even scientist. dos tis mean i cant examine and infer, and have insight, and leearn and gain knowledge and experience...? is your criteria for an autentic human beng to have letters after his name?.....so tat means joe public's like an animal tp yo. not tat i look down on animals. i am just second guessin you

so Light. i challenge you. are you willing to takethe challenge or are you just hot air?
te challenge is for you to contact a Neuroscientist via email, and put to him WHY it is you believe mental illnes is biological illness.

IS it possible for ou to transfer any rceived email to here, so we could see your communication?

Maybe you might respect his knowledge of the matter better than you you do mine?

well? if not. put a sock in it. or present evidence

If everything was left up to the best efforts of the average person, we would still be living in caves, cooking our food over an open fire. The average person owes everything to the scientists and the businessmen.

Yes, true. But everything will probably always have its positives and its negatives. Personally, I am amused by you if you can't see that. Again, personally, I'd rather only live about 40 years. That would mean I'd have less than 5 years to go. I don't like this world as it is, nor where its heading. I sit here and type like a zombie, disillusioned, sad and lonely. But this is better than being a part of this society in my opinion. Two sides. And one of them is not just a "mental" one. :eek:

k
Yes, true. But everything will probably always have its positives and its negatives. Personally, I am amused by you if you can't see that. Again, personally, I'd rather only live about 40 years. That would mean I'd have less than 5 years to go. I don't like this world as it is. I sit here and type like a zombie, disillusioned, sad and lonely. But this is better than being a part of this society in my opinion. Two sides. And one of them is not just a "mental" one.
you have something invaluable. Honesty

thanks, duendy. you too. just try to see both sides of this issue, because I don't think any of us are right all the time, least of all me. On one hand, I hope I live to eat some of the words I have written here. On the other, I don't. And most of it is just the depression talking through me. Who knows? :p

The interesting thing about all of this, as well as any so-called "mental disorder or illness" is that it must be diagnosed and/or treated by someone in the psychiatric/psychology field. The problem lies with the profession itself. While labelling itself a "science", it is nothing but a blind faith, or religion. Even the name "psychology" reveals it's religious nature. It comes from the greek words "pseuche" = "soul", and "logos" = "study of". In other words, the name means, literally, "the study of the soul". Not exactly something that is in the realm of science. It's a religious (albeit human) system of 'salvation', if you will.

I know that this is not going too make many people happy here, but the root of most so-called "mental illness" is selfishness. We see this even in the so-called "self-esteem" literature. It's all about "me". There is no such thing as self-hatred, or having self-esteem that is too low. The fact is that, when someone says they "hate themselves" for whatever reason, it shows that their self-esteem is at an all-time high, and that they love themselves too much. An example is the girl who says, "I'm so fat (ugly, unpopular, etc...), I hate myself". This is indicative that she, indeed, loves herself. If she really hated herself, she wouldn't care how she looked. The same is true of depression. It is merely an expression of too much self love. No one, or nothing, else matters except for "MY depression", or "MY bipolar disorder", or "MY problems". They are so self absorbed that they make themselves the center of their own universe, and thus, feel they are deserving of nothing but the best. They are just deprived of it.

Ever notice that it is only the 'civilized' nations, whose citizens have so much free time on their hands, who have all of these 'ailments'?? Go into any native, or primative, culture, and you will find that the people are too busy just trying to survive to be depressed. You will also not find any 'bipolar disorders' or 'mental illness'. Hmmmm.......

Rev Rock: I am not sure that the following can be substantiated, but it does not seem entirely unreasonable.Go into any native, or primative, culture, and you will find that the people are too busy just trying to survive to be depressed. You will also not find any 'bipolar disorders' or 'mental illness'. Hmmmm....... If true, it might very well be that many mental disorders are due to the interaction between our modern technological culture and instincts/behaviors evolved over millions of years to cope with a far more primitive culture.

To consider a very obvious example, consider Attention Deficit Disorder. In a hunter/gatherer culture, it probably did not cause problems for the person with the disorder. Ask such a person to cope well with our modern educational system and it is a tragedy. 50,000 years ago, ADD might have had some survival value. Consider a group of hunters intent on tracking prey. The one with ADD is constantly distracted from the primary goal of the group and might be the one to notice a poisonous snake, a large crouching cat about to pounce, or some other immediate danger.

Remember that our basic genetic heritage was designed to cope with the conditions existing 20-150 thousand years ago. Evolution has not had time to change some basic instincts and behavioral traits.

BTW: The psychologists/psychiatrists who recognize the limitations of their soft science manage to do a reasonable job, especially the ones who are behaviorally oriented. That discipline is a lot more difficult than hard sciences like physics, mathematics, medicine (not really so hard), et cetera.

Geez! I just very quickly breezed over this forum, but one thing I feel obliged to state is the harmful psychological practice of "misnomer" labelling someone as "bipolar" or "manic-depressive." This implies that there are only these two extremes and none of the subtle inbetweens that we ALL have. Don't we all have "mood swings" depending on our environmental experiences? Only when that person's mood-swings become "problematic," then should they label it as bipolar or manic-depressive and he/she should be referred to a psyche.

Look at the guy who just got shot and killed by U.S. Marshalls after running from the plane as his wife frantically shouted out to law-enforcement officers: "He's bipolar, he's bipolar." Then read what all his neighbors say about him: "That's not the nice friendly man that we knew."???

Valich: I agree that the manic depressive disorder might be an extreme form of what are normally called mood swings. It true that people with this problem can behave normally for weeks or months between episodes. Those with milder forms of the problem can often cope with life fairly well without medication or therapy.

It can be controlled with medication and therapy. However, those with the disorder often stop using the medication, partially due to not liking the side effects and partially due to thinking that they are cured.

Many years ago, I had a good friend who was manic depressive. He was often a guest at my home, and I did not worry about his behavior even though I had young children at the time.

For a long time I thought that the term Bipolar was used to refer to a milder form of the disorder. Recently, I was told that the new term is used in the interests of using Politically Correct rather than descriptive terms. Believe me, Manic Depressive was far more descriptive of my friend when he lost control. No way would I call him Bipolar.

To all the skeptics:

If you had Type 1 Diabetes you would get insulin shots, correct?

If you have a disorder like bi-polar, panic, depression, etc....the drugs should be taken. They can improve quality of life and possibly prevent other things from happening to your body....ulcers, extremely high blood pressure, etc... Quite a few of the drugs are processed through the liver and who knows what future complications may arise, but it's a risk I'd be well willing to take to avoid further complications like having a stroke as a result of high blood pressure. Or just being miserable in general.

Peace....analbeads :m:

I know a few people with manic-depression, and knowing them, I would in no way deny the existance of this disorder. I'm going to hazard a guess and say that duendy and these other pseudo-sceptics (as someone nicely put it) don't know any. It goes well beyond some sort of minor deviation from the norm. I don't know what else to say in regards to this, Light and Dinosaur are doing a reasonable job, just wanted to throw in my support.

As for the poor guy who got shot, my immediate response when I heard this was horror, just because of how easily I could picture one of my bipolar friends doing the exact same thing. Making a joke (or whatever this guy was doing) and simply getting carried away with it.

you can 'think' it all you want. te actual fact is that mental illness is NOT a biological disease. There is no PROOF it is.
Now, does that mean that your friends aren't distressed--according to them and you? no. BUT that distress/behaviour is NOT a biological disease....But if you and your friends want to BEL:IEVE it is, what can anyone DO??....

This is a direct quote posted by GeniusNProgress on the first page of this thread:

"The symptoms result from chemical imbalances in the brain and they lie beyond voluntary control."
From:
http://aolsvc.health.webmd.aol.com/content/article/8/1680_54580?SRC=aolKW=bipolar

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but doesn't that make it a biological disorder?

bi·o·log·i·cal
adj.
1. Of, relating to, caused by, or affecting life or living organisms: biological processes such as growth and digestion.

The first meaning of biological would imply a link between these chemical imbalances and biology, right? Now I don't pretend to know anything about the science behind all this, so I'm trying to work through it logically.

In any case, if this 'distress', as you put it (yeah, I maintain you've have no contact with any manic depressives), isn't "biological", does that make it less real? If it's not biological, then what is it? If this disorder is causing people to kill themselves, or be shot by air marshalls, then why would you shut yours eyes to it and persist that it doesn't exist?

- Jack

On a side note, Duendy, please make an effort at spelling and punctuation... I find it really hard to take anything you say seriously when it takes me a few minutes to even decipher it.

jeff54....sorry you have trouble deciphering my script.....i m sick of havin to xplain the limitations of my system which includes mico keyboards, plus the necssity to respond to complexissues like this one.......what ca i say. it iant that hard 'te' usually means 'the' etcetc

regarding your belief in 'chemica imbalance'....? my nightmare is this. long threads ...long long threads whereone hasbeen thru all tis, then later others come totally missing what's been explored and asking sae questions. in other words Jeff54 if you care to explore this thread, you should find where i have forewarded a source which puts paid to the 'chemcial imbalance' myth

look...Heff. you also have to see a much larger picture here. at the moment you seem tp be placing your trust in thepsychiatric establishment...I suggest you look into its history. see what they havebeen up to. it is far from pretty i can tell you!.....so you assume things have changed do you?

also look at it this way. lifestyle. how much aware are we of opprssion in culture. of crap food, of denigraton of Nature and our role in Nature as natural beings, of the clock, demands of tis culture. are we to ignore all of thatand listen t these fukin bio-shrinks pushin their drugs. this is a omplex issue. you cant just be reductive about this, and have to look at the whole lot. however painful tis may be for you

Duendy, this thread is long because of your inability to accept overwhelming data contrary to your paranoid views. After reading the whole thread, I posted a purposely unobtrusive post that just stated my opinion. Since YOU brought up the old arguments - YOU, not me - I decided to try and present what has been said before in a way that might just make a little ground. Just watch the accusations about missing the point - you can 'get' the point just as much from reading a thread as participating from the start.

- jack54

Duendy, this thread is long because of your inability to accept overwhelming data contrary to your paranoid views.

me)))))haha...now your a shrink diagnosing me paranoid are you. right. continue

After reading the whole thread, I posted a purposely unobtrusive post that just stated my opinion.

me))understand. and i stated mine back!

Since YOU brought up the old arguments - YOU, not me -

me))))errr, you brought it up the moment you posted to this thread.....

I decided to try and present what has been said before in a way that might just make a little ground.

mePPPPaorry to tell you dude. i have heard it over and over. ie., ti OLD ground. you've said nowt new.

Just watch the accusations about missing the point - you can 'get' the point just as much from reading a thread as participating from the start.

me))no you cant wit sometin as complex as this.

- jack54
who are you? what are your qualifications for claiming you KNOW what mental illness is? i am curious. you've already got ME down as paranoid already. what next? drugs??

who are you? what are your qualifications for claiming you KNOW what mental illness is?
maybe you should turn this question back on yourself.

maybe you should turn this question back on yourself.
i admit. i am not a psychiatrist, psychologist, or neurologist, or work in mental health field. But that doesn't mean i dont smell a scam when i smell one, and cant be savvy to who is nearer tellin it like it is...........

I have seen tis pattern you ad your friends dont seem to. I haveread up on history of psychiatry, wit te help of Thomas Sasz an others, and i am telling ypu it is a VERY VERY ugly story. Surely you cant look t this issu wit any seriousnessTIL you check out its history. what do you say?

as wel as that you need a flexible mind. many psychiatristsm doctors, neurologists are SO specialized that they wont know othe areas of related researchm andisues that would expose to themselovesthe scam they are a part of. To probably you would be impressed with some specialist who tells you dony worry they know what they are doing...? me, NO. definately not now. not that i everdid actually.

I repeat. there exists NO evidence that mental illness is biological disease. Look Roy, if you really really really are passionate to find out about tis,and not justgo round incicles, tryin to get last word here, etc, WHY don't you contact the person i advized you to contact? Dr Fred Baughman. Heis not only a Heurologist, but knows the scam going on inside and out and inbetween. He actually has asked the BIG players, the head of the APA for EVIDENCE....E V I D E N C E (please read that carefully Roy) to prove that mental illness is biologically caused. Guess what happened?? he was ignored.....soo, previous to this we had psychiatric survivors hungerstriking as a protest to try and get the APA to give EFIDENCE that mental illness is biologically caused. read in the archives here what happened http://www.mindfreedom.org

What does one have to do to convince people like yoursel that you have been taken for a ride by th gov-pharma-shrink cartel????what? and now they are targeting our very children and ytou STILL back em up. check out about Bush admins' 'TeenScreen' scam. do some research!!...also pleeease, get in touch with auhmann, and copy his replies to here. if ya serious about this you will wan to learn the truth for yourself, no?

Duendy, why wouldn't someone blow the whistle? How could you keep that many people quiet? Wouldn't at least one have some sort of moral conscience?

Duendy, why wouldn't someone blow the whistle? How could you keep that many people quiet? Wouldn't at least one have some sort of moral conscience?
for manymany...? money, prestige, power, bloodymindedness, and ignorance real and deliberate will keep their heads in the trough. there are vast amounts of money to be made. people may go into their chosen profession thinking they are doing right, then thee are the years of training, and specialization. So for many they may fee; it is too much to even look to closely at annomalies.

As for 'where are the Whistelbowers?'...Dr Fred Baughman is a MAJOR Whistelblower, a real thorn in theire side. As is Thomas Szasz and others. I urge you to pay attention to what they have to say. And if possible, for you to contact Dr Buaghman yourself? I can provide you with his email address if you would like?

He also has a mailing list forum where you can share ltters from both supporters of mental health establishment--which he challenges, and those that are waking up to the truth, and those that have

Jack54, you reaally havenothing to lose. whethe you believe me or not, surely a best ting is to dive in and explore this WHOLE issue, and THE see how you feel......

At this point I'm not willing to devote more time to diving into it: I'm too sceptical. Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I think there would be too many morally conscious people in such a wide range of fields ("gov-pharma-shrink") for this to possibly exist.

Thankyou for encouraging me to really look at the issue though. I appreciate that you want me to base my opinions on something. However, what I've said here won't be swayed by talking to these people, or even listening to your arguments anymore: it's based on what I consider thorough, logical conjecture.

duendy, what is your, and dr baughman's, definition of a 'biological disease'? i agree that mental illness is not like malaria, it cannot be caught like what we normally call disease. but that doesnt make it fake.

mental illness is not a biological disease. i dont really think anyone is saying otherwise either. mental illness is a label associated to abnormality of brain structure. abnormality in the sense that most people fall within a certain range, but those who suffer from a variety of psychological disorders fall outside that range in some aspects.

duendy, what is your, and dr baughman's, definition of a 'biological disease'? i agree that mental illness is not like malaria, it cannot be caught like what we normally call disease. but that doesnt make it fake.

mental illness is not a biological disease. i dont really think anyone is saying otherwise either. mental illness is a label associated to abnormality of brain structure. abnormality in the sense that most people fall within a certain range, but those who suffer from a variety of psychological disorders fall outside that range in some aspects.

What bipsychiatry is calling medical science--reagrding their 'diagnoses'-- is subjective assumptions about peoples BEHAVIOUR, and calling what they subjectively assume a biological disease. Dr Baughman: "Always recall: objective abnormality = disease: nowhere in psychiatry/mental health/psychology is there an objective abnormality = disease".

And did you khow, the bio-shrinks have invented yet another new 'disease'? They are calling it "suicidal depression"...!