View Full Version : Bipolar, Schizoaffective, BPD (Ect)... Can the General Population Trust These People?


PHPlatonica
04-04-06, 12:35 PM
SYMPTOMS AND TREATMENT BIPOLAR
Depressive Episode Manic Episode
Essential Features (Must Be Present)
Social or Occupational Impairment
Either:
Sad or Depressed Mood
Apathy
Irritability or Hostility (if 18 or younger)
Essential Features (Must Be Present)
Social or Occupational Impairment
Either:
Elated Mood
Irritability or Hostility

Core Features (Usually Present)
Fatigue
Sleeping Problem
Appetite or Eating Problem
Feeling Worthless or Guilty
Suicidal Thoughts or Risk of Harming Self
Poor Concentration or Attention
Either:
Hyperactivity
Slowing or Poverty of Response
Core Features (Usually Present)
Inflated Self-Esteem or Grandiosity
Decreased Need for Sleep
Reckless or Impulsive Behavior
Over-Talkative or Racing Speech
Hyperactivity
Poor Concentration or Attention

Associated Features (Present When Severe)
Pain or Discomfort
Sexual Problems
Poor Overall Physical Functioning
Distrust or Suspiciousness
Economic Problems
Depression may require hospitalization, hence:
Dependent Behavior
Poor Personal Self-Care
Need for Institutional Care
Depression may increase addiction, hence:
Increased Smoking
Increased Alcohol Abuse
Increased Drug or Medication Abuse
Depression may increase anxiety, hence:
Phobia
Panic Attacks
Generalized Anxiety
Depression may progress to "pseudodementia", psychosis or stupor, hence:
Memory Impairment
Intellectual Impairment
Impaired Ability to Communicate Using Language
Impaired Ability to Communicate Using Emotions
Delusions or Hallucinations
Disorientation
Poor Insight
Associated Features (Present When Severe)
Distrust or Suspiciousness
Economic Problems
Mania may require hospitalization, hence:
Poor Personal Self-Care
Need for Institutional Care
Mania may increase impulsivity, hence:
Illegal or Criminal Behavior
Physical Violence
Mania may increase addiction, hence:
Increased Smoking
Increased Alcohol Abuse
Increased Drug or Medication Abuse
Mania often is mixed with depression, hence:
Sad or Depressed Mood
Apathy
Generalized Anxiety
Feeling Worthless or Guilty
Suicidal Thoughts or Risk of Harming Self
Mania may progress to catatonic stupor or psychosis, hence:
Memory Impairment
Intellectual Impairment
Impaired Ability to Communicate Using Language
Impaired Ability to Communicate Using Emotions
Slowing or Poverty of Response
Delusions or Hallucinations
Grossly Disorganized Speech or Behavior
Disorientation
Poor Insight

Diagnostic Criteria
Schizoaffective,
An uninterrupted period of illness during which, at some time, there is either (1) a Major Depressive Episode, (2) a Manic Episode, or (3) a Mixed Episode concurrent with symptoms that meet (4) Criterion A for Schizophrenia.
Note: The Major Depressive Episode must include depressed mood.

(1) Criteria for Major Depressive Episode

Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood or (2) loss of interest or pleasure.
Note: Do not include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations.

depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.
markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)
significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains.
insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day
psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)
fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day
feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)
diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)
recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide
The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode
The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism).
The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation.
(2) Criteria for Manic Episode

A distinct period of abnormally and persistently elevated, expansive, or irritable mood, lasting at least 1 week (or any duration if hospitalization is necessary).
During the period of mood disturbance, three (or more) of the following symptoms have persisted (four if the mood is only irritable) and have been present to a significant degree:
inflated self-esteem or grandiosity
decreased need for sleep (e.g., feels rested after only 3 hours of sleep)
more talkative than usual or pressure to keep talking
flight of ideas or subjective experience that thoughts are racing
distractibility (i.e., attention too easily drawn to unimportant or irrelevant external stimuli)
increase in goal-directed activity (either socially, at work or school, or sexually) or psychomotor agitation
excessive involvement in pleasurable activities that have a high potential for painful consequences (e.g., engaging in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, or foolish business investments)
The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode
The mood disturbance is sufficiently severe to cause marked impairment in occupational functioning or in usual social activities or relationships with others, or to necessitate hospitalization to prevent harm to self or others, or there are psychotic features.
The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication, or other treatment) or a general medical condition (e.g., hyperthyroidism).
(3) Criteria for Mixed Episode

The criteria are met both for a Manic Episode and for a Major Depressive Episode (except for duration) nearly every day during at least a 1-week period.
The mood disturbance is sufficiently severe to cause marked impairment in occupational functioning or in usual social activities or relationships with others, or to necessitate hospitalization to prevent harm to self or others, or there are psychotic features.
The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication, or other treatment) or a general medical condition (e.g., hyperthyroidism).
(4) Criterion A of Schizophrenia

Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):
delusions
hallucinations
disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition
Only one symptom is required if delusions are bizarre or hallucinations consist of a voice keeping up a running commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices conversing with each other.
During the same period of illness, there have been delusions or hallucinations for at least 2 weeks in the absence of prominent mood symptoms.
Symptoms that meet criteria for a mood episode are present for a substantial portion of the total duration of the active and residual periods of the illness.
The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.
Specify type:
Bipolar Type: if the disturbance includes a Manic or a Mixed Episode (or a Manic or a Mixed Episode and Major Depressive Episodes)
Depressive Type: if the disturbance only includes Major Depressive Episodes

BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder)
Symptoms
While a person with depression or bipolar disorder typically endures the same mood for weeks, a person with BPD may experience intense bouts of anger, depression, and anxiety that may last only hours, or at most a day.5 These may be associated with episodes of impulsive aggression, self-injury, and drug or alcohol abuse. Distortions in cognition and sense of self can lead to frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, friendships, gender identity, and values. Sometimes people with BPD view themselves as fundamentally bad, or unworthy. They may feel unfairly misunderstood or mistreated, bored, empty, and have little idea who they are. Such symptoms are most acute when people with BPD feel isolated and lacking in social support, and may result in frantic efforts to avoid being alone.

People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike). Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all. Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans. These fears of abandonment seem to be related to difficulties feeling emotionally connected to important persons when they are physically absent, leaving the individual with BPD feeling lost and perhaps worthless. Suicide threats and attempts may occur along with anger at perceived abandonment and disappointments.

People with BPD exhibit other impulsive behaviors, such as excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex. BPD often occurs together with other psychiatric problems, particularly bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and other personality disorders.

PHPlatonica
04-04-06, 12:46 PM
DAMN there is a LOT of Crap out there...

TO What extent do people feel that people with these mental disturbances can be "Trusted"....
From taking care of your children (IE School, Day Care, Baby sitting, Bus Driver.)

To being a Police Officer, Fire fighter, Any Politically held position...

Should they be aloud to Own weapons? (Just in general) If no, Why?

Should they all be Medicated for the good of themselves and the General Population? Or just left alone completely to ... do what ever they want?

Can they even be trusted with simple issues and daily encounters?
Like, with things they say? even though it's usually subject to change depending on the mood of the person? ( how do you trust that?)

Wanted to kill them selves. That too, is subject to change.

Carelessness and forgetfulness. Quick at anger, also Quick to happiness.

Where do you draw the Social Boundaries of "Acceptable and Trust Worthy?"

illuminatingtherapy
04-04-06, 12:56 PM
They need therapy. Any mental disorder needs therapy in one way or another.

PHPlatonica
04-04-06, 01:08 PM
YES we do!
But Im serious.. It is a serious issue, that I think a lot of paranoia comes from.
I can't speak for every one of course, But.. I am curious as too the general population as a whole?

When and where do we draw the lines?

Should we in all honesty WAIT for a "crime" against others to be committed?

Should every one stay on guard around known people with these problems?


I love psychology. It has made me the MOST angry, and has also been the most helpful.
It does not work like that for every one.
And I know from personal experience, that I am automatically not trusted with my Opinions by Doctors, and family.. Even though I haven't "burnt any thing down" in a while, I am still not totally trusted.
And Doctors, knowing my diagnosis, take me less seriously when I have a legitimate ailment for fear of prescribing something that can be addictive to some thing I MAY harm my self with (DOH) So I am denied a variety of "treatment options".

So, are we honestly that frowned upon by most people in the general population?
Is it a case of, once you have already messed up, people should be weary?

Help is out there. Absolutely, But... It's not individualized enough, just categorized and grouped. *frown* you wouldn't believe the bending backwards I have to do to PROVE myself to other people who know my diagnosis. It's degrading

illuminatingtherapy
04-04-06, 01:23 PM
Interresting topic, indeed, but how can any decide where to draw the line? People with a diagnosis are often met with prejudice, and wouldn't drawing a line only be fuel for hatred? Just out of curiosity, what is your diagnosis?

PHPlatonica
04-04-06, 01:38 PM
I don't know illuminatingtherapy. It COULD. But, I think it is important, and I think a "fuller" understanding of what people think of "us" would help calm down the sadness, and give clarity in the ways we are treated.
It's not like it isn't already Embarrassing.

I was Clinically Diagnosed as Bipolar. I had (a few) Major Manic episodes. (isn't that type 2?)
I never thought I owned anything I didn't, Nor did I think I had magical powers (though there were some interesting times where I wondered about that. That just might be lack of self esteem and recognizing I am smarter then I thought)...

Any how... I lost it completely when I hit puberty. Terrified. I had already had an interesting introduction to life as it were. But my sisters made it out great. I unfortunately didn't do as good. My Biological father is a Schizophrenic, so I am sure there is a LOT of genetics playing on my problem as well. No doubt there really.

But, you see.. I had MORALS and CALM pounded into me. I am not saying I didn't need it at all. I was a wreck for a long time. But I was threatened with the things I loved being taken away if I did not comply. So I complied. It haunts my nightmares still though. That every thing I love will be taken away, or I will freak out and lose it all again. (paranoia)

Any how.. It's been quite a while since I have had any disturbing out break. Yet, I am still seeing that with my diagnosis I am taken on a "Lighter scale".
The initial feeling is that I am not trusted because of my known diagnosis. But every one is to afraid that I will act out or fall apart again, that they walk on egg shells around me. Talk down to me. Afraid of what actions I might next take. Always on edge with me. * sigh.. I can not get that trust back. And the people who only know of my diagnosis, and who were not there for the episodes, distrust me automatically. They become defensive and weary in my presence.
I wanted to know ... well... the stigma behind it all. Maybe I could enlighten "normal" people with my condition that we aren't all monsters at all. And those of us who need the MOST help, are not getting it.

PHPlatonica
04-04-06, 01:46 PM
OH!
I missed one thing you said...

Drawing the line..
It SEEMS that ten years ago, it was easier for a Psychologist to legally hold a person who was showing signs of off behavior. In order to protect that person, and other persons.

Now days, a person with a disorder literally has to MESS UP, go out and hurt others, or them self before anything can be legally done. (in most states this varies as well)

So, there IS a line where you lose your rights. The 72 hour hold was designed for that.
But after that, the clinician and doctor have to PROVE this person will be a threat if released.

So when and how and where is the line drawn that says "ok, you will mess up, even though you haven't. But we are going to make sure you don't"

It's honestly got to be one of the HARDEST most hurtful and scary arrears for BOTH doctor and patient. Not to mention family members.

And me, I don't know if this makes ME a hypocrite, but I would be terrified if some one with my diagnosis and not medicated was taking care of my children. Because I REMEMBER every thing I was capable of when I "flipped out"... I feel a sense of dread at this because on the one hand, I don't want my children hurt at all. Not ever. Protect them at all costs.
But on the other hand, people with these disorders and myself are people too. And CAN for the most part function pretty well. How ever, when we mess up, we tend to MESS UP.

It's a rock and a hard place. a Place where you don't feel like you are human. You wonder constantly if the way you were treated was because your "mentally unstable" or "are people just jerks some times"...

So, I want to talk about these things.

illuminatingtherapy
04-04-06, 02:00 PM
Well PHP, surely other people than those with a diagnosis are in as much a desperate need of therapy. People being afraid of how you might act, means that they are revealing those insecurities they have towards what aren't considered 'reliable' or 'sane'. Take the witch trials in example. No doubt today, that the insane people were those murdering many innocent girls based on fear and prejudice. Should they be considered 'normal', just because they didn't have a diagnosis? Where would the line of 'normal' go?

Sounds like you have your own insecurities towards your diagnosis, am I right? If so, get rid of them, and maybe you won't bother about the people talking lightly to you, or acting different towards you. Maybe you'll acknowledge the fact that they do, but consider it their loss, cause they're afraid of talking substantially or profound and/or honest with you, so that they miss out on all the great things and thoughts you have to offer. Keep with people who acknowledge you for you, with all your strengths and flaws, but strive to reach your own potential regarding the diagnosis and the society. That's the best you can do, yet everything is within your limit.

illuminatingtherapy
04-04-06, 02:03 PM
And of course, if the disorder is genetic, and not trauma, how much do you trust people with your kind of disorder, even if on medication? Are they trustworty at all, in your opinion? By the way, 'sane' people can mess up ten times as bad, as you possibly EVER will. There are far worse personalities to encounter than those with a genetic mental disorder. Trust me. Look at most people with money and power. They're just better at covering up their mistakes.

spidergoat
04-04-06, 02:30 PM
Most of these conditions are personal and no one's business but their own. With bi-polar, in the manic phase, they are often quite effective and motivated people. I would think with certain professions, like child care and police work, they would and should be screened out. Depression can be a temporary condition, though.

kirstykiwi
04-04-06, 02:49 PM
Mental illness has nothing to do with whether one can 'trust' or not. You need to look beyond the illness.

You have to look at the environment they are in - for example, those who are in the mental health system for years build up a 'distrust' of society for example, because of threads like these. Its called discrimination and Stigma.

I think the majority of those with mental illness are good reliable people who struggle daily with a yuck condition. When they get involved with drugs and alcohol, it can make them less reliable.

People who are in the mental health system often find housing and employment and making friends outside their own peers difficult due to their condition. They just want to be accepted in soicety like everyone else!
People are people - lets have a thread that says "Can you 'trust' people with cancer?"

illuminatingtherapy
04-04-06, 02:58 PM
Remember, though, that this regards genetic mental dysfunctions, not neurosis or trauma, like depression or paranoia. They can't be blamed for their condition, nor can they change it, because the brain doesn't function right; dysfunction. But is it fair to treat them differently? Should they be treated differently? If so, why/why not?

PHPlatonica
04-04-06, 03:11 PM
Of course I have issues over my diagnosis. no one wants to be told something is wrong with them. HA... Right? Unless your a hypochondriac.

Of course the witch trials sucked. They were completely wrong. No doubt about it.
... maybe... Maybe a lot of people are just not educated enough about mental instability?
Those who have suffered, or encountered it, usually do NOT like it at all. And there is a personal anxiety towards people with an illness? ON a subconscious level maybe?

When you have been through therapy, and what not, basic every day behavior is placed infront of you to notice. So you pick up on jesters more then most people would because your so self conscious about messing up again. (insecurity) I think people can feel that insecurity. Or at least sense it through behavior recognition, that they just act "accordingly"...... But on a more "social" level I do wonder.

For instance my doctor, just a family physician, who knows my diagnosis ONLY. Never has seen me erupt, is weary to prescribe MANY things to me.
After a "decent enough" battle, I wanted to know why. And it boiled down to losing his license IF I hurt myself, or got out of hand.
I was angry. Who wouldn't be? So, I said "Just because I HAVE Bipolar, doesn't mean I AM Bipolar"...
He disagreed with me. He had the PHD to do so.
He said that I WAS Bipolar, and that, just that alone, put's him on edge or caution when I need something for sleep or other problems. Insurance reasons and legal reasons apply.
I wondered how many "other" people are "Taught" that about mental diagnosis's.
So then because I am Bipolar, when I break my leg is it not broken? The same as any body else's leg would be?
Of course.
So then I am not entitled to the narcotic pain relief, because of my Bipolar diagnosis JUST in case I MIGHT abuse them? And does this make the pain in my broken leg any more less severe? What is taking precedence on his decision?
his License?
his Understanding of my diagnosis?
his inability to trust me enough that I would not abuse something?

It seems to boil down to a lack of trust.
So then there are things that I am not entitled to because of the diagnosis. I have never had a history of drug abuse. So I know it isn't my past making his decision.
Perhaps something in my behavior some where? But that still boils down to trust.
a bullion of trust. (ha-ha)

What is he not trusting?
Is he not trusting my stability?

So every thing trickled down to his fear, because of my diagnosis and his understanding of it, that I MIGHT abuse narcotics if they are given. So nip it in the bud, and save his own behind Just in case. He refuses any prescription, based on my diagnosis, that might show "Abuse or harm"... And my leg still hurts (metaphorically)
At this point, I do not feel like a "person" any more. But rather a disease. A Leper.
Paranoid about not being trusted.

And this is just a tiny example of what goes on. You lose so much "say" when you are like this.

Not to mention the chaos that goes on behind your eyes. Can be over whelming.
It leads a LOT of people to suicide. Why bother being around if your a Burdon, can not be trusted, can not be treated the way you see other people being treated. Unsure of your own existence and Mortality.
An anger and behavior that comes from a simple source. Like a Pandora's box.
Suddenly you are paying for the actions of your behavior, and every one over looks the spark that ignited the behavior. It become trivial compared to the destruction being made.
Then it is simple to say "See? this is why I tell you what I tell you. You over react."

Except that... all that behavior could have all been avoided if the person were just given a chance.
Where do you draw the line?
Do you WAIT for the individual to take that "final mistake" and kill them self or some one else? Or, do you suspect that the person should just be not given the "chance" to mess up?
It's a thin line that lacks any communication. "death and destruction" Are Final. Stop it before it COULD happen? or... try it, and hope it Doesn't happen?

When you have an emotional dilemma, you tend to change your mind.............. A LOT.
Doing JUST THAT makes people hesitant with you, unsure. One minute you are saying "yes" and the next, "no"... The perspectives change depending on the underlying emotion. Then the thought process kicks in, and the defensive mode. Then Empathy...
Basically, a tangle of emotions just to get one simple answer out.
These things going on in the head of some one who is emotionally, or mentally unstable.. thinking to much.
.... With those changing thoughts, how CAN any one "trust" you? You aren't even sure how you will respond about the situation tomorrow, or in a few hours.
So.. then, maybe people CAN NOT trust some one with emotional problems because they are indecisive?
Then the whole trust worthy thing has to do with the inability to stick with one "thing"... and there for you are not "trusted"...
So we aren't "trust worthy"
Main Entry: 1trust
Pronunciation: 'tr&st
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse traust trust; akin to Old English trEowe faithful -- more at TRUE
1 a : assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something b : one in which confidence is placed
2 a : dependence on something future or contingent : HOPE b : reliance on future payment for property (as merchandise) delivered : CREDIT
3 a : a property interest held by one person for the benefit of another b : a combination of firms or corporations formed by a legal agreement; especially : one that reduces or threatens to reduce competition
4 archaic : TRUSTWORTHINESS
5 a (1) : a charge or duty imposed in faith or confidence or as a condition of some relationship (2) : something committed or entrusted to one to be used or cared for in the interest of another b : responsible charge or office c : CARE, CUSTODY <the child committed to her trust>
- in trust : in the care or possession of a trustee

kirstykiwi
04-04-06, 03:21 PM
Phplatonica, There is so much misdiagnosis out there - don't worry about a diagnosis - You are a person, not a diagnosis or a label. Sometimes it good to have a diagnosis as then you know what you are battling. Knowledge is power.
The fear that comes from your 'mates' is because they are ignorant, and frightened due to the stigma.
Just know that those who have suffered it are like a family - they will have compassion and understanding. I've found those with mental illness are the least judgemental. :)

illuminatingtherapy
04-04-06, 03:21 PM
When you have been through therapy, and what not, basic every day behavior is placed infront of you to notice. So you pick up on jesters more then most people would because your so self conscious about messing up again. (insecurity) I think people can feel that insecurity. Or at least sense it through behavior recognition, that they just act "accordingly"...... But on a more "social" level I do wonder.

Wow, that was an insightful reply, PHP. Loved the highlited section the most. Everyone should consider this, it's of great value.

But, then again, as the insecurity and lack of self-confidence towards ones own behaviour and personality becomes apparent to oneself in ones everyday life, wouldn't one start to question: what's normal? What's sane? Maybe the insecurity is due to the diagnosis, not the illness? It's apparently the doctor that is failing. Not about the diagnosis, but about the treatment of it.

PHPlatonica
04-04-06, 03:26 PM
Trust, there is the definition. Up one.

See... My Opinion is that spidergoat is RIGHT.
There are situations that you can not properly give "trust" in when it come to mental illness. Even IF they are temporary some of the end results can be pretty "final"..

Cancer patients can't be brought into the same category.. BUT would you want some one who was on chemo therapy and Other heavy medications guarding your possessions? Do you think that they could get past their pain and mental alertness long enough to "Protect" on a "constant" level?

Would you like some one who has epilepsy being your heart surgeon? a blind doctor doing open brain surgery? Could you TRUST him/her enough to do it compared to a Physician who could see? We are talking about your life here. One false move... and that's it. Should we just "feel sorry" for the blind doctor and look past the disability so far that our own lives COULD be in danger?
No one would purposely place them selves in a position like that if it messed with their own mortality.

No one would. And do you think this would probly make them FEEL like less of a person?
I would hope it does.
But that isn't going to change anything is it.

The thing is simple... To what extent should one hand out "trust"... When do you draw the line behind Moral obligation, and Mortality?

When it comes to people who are already UN reliable due to their in ability to function on a "norm", then they are NOT trust worthy at all.
the Misconception I see is that People take trust too Personally. as if it were a character flaw some how.
Mental health has been around for a while. Not as long as these conditions, But when it comes down to YOUR LIFE, would you trust a person who is known for their inadequacy in being stable to take care of you.

PHPlatonica
04-04-06, 03:37 PM
Phplatonica, There is so much misdiagnosis out there - don't worry about a diagnosis - You are a person, not a diagnosis or a label. Sometimes it good to have a diagnosis as then you know what you are battling. Knowledge is power.
The fear that comes from your 'mates' is because they are ignorant, and frightened due to the stigma.
Just know that those who have suffered it are like a family - they will have compassion and understanding. I've found those with mental illness are the least judgemental. :)

Oh Kirsty, you sweet heart *smile*

That was so sweet.

I "accept" my diagnosis. For a few reasons for myself only.
one, to show myself there are others who suffer with me.
two, to not beat my self up should I become manic or depressed to quickly.
three, to better understand the treatments available around people with similar chemical reactions that I have.

As with anything though, It can be used against you too.
I can not legally own a firearm.
I can not be a pharmacist, police officer etc...
I can not be a doctor.
The military would never have me.
And there are just a number of things that under this diagnosis you are not aloud to have. NOW.. that is IF you go as far as I did... and Have a court hearing (HA-HA)
So I am on Paper.
I could fight it I suppose. If I was that adamant about wanting a gun or to be a doctor. I would have to PROVE myself completely.
But when it comes to states of the mind, and the shifting and changing, I would be asking for trouble.
See what I mean?
I am alright about being "fuct" up... That's not the thing.
I wonder to what extant does the "trust" issue go.
Again, Trust isn't always about your "person"... But your ability

PHPlatonica
04-04-06, 04:27 PM
illuminating,
Thank you for the comments.

I believe that there is an OVER stigma when it comes to mental health issues.
And what breaks my heart is the fact that I will get better care and medication because I have insurance, then the sever schizophrenic on the street.

And you know what? I am Terrified of them.

I lived in a few Asylums. I know these behaviors up close and personal. Not with a clinicians out look, but as a person to persons out look.
So I know that the man on the street who is talking into his shoe, and yelling at god for not coming over to dinner, is NOT on a level of reality that would be SAFE for my own well being. Whether he means well or not isn't even the issue.
But I KNOW that if I were in an environment, with staff and people, I would not be afraid. In fact, I would treat him as an individual and even talk to him. because my environment will be safer.
I really feel that people, consciously or no, DO that. There is this invisible line that our instinct draws that points out possible danger. It is felt in anxiety's. What is amazing is the chemical responses in our bodies and how we react to them.

I am not at all saying that any one with ANY disability is a BAD worthless person. Not at all!
But there are things that person's with certain disabilities can NOT do, unless they can prove beyond suspicion that they CAN do it. Usually when that happens the diagnosis changes...

Also, with cancers and illness's and defects, you can readily "see them" in at scans, and MRI's (For the most part)... When it comes to the Mind or Emotion, you MAY get a few less chemicals and firing neurons, but the person needs to be evaluated for a length of time because every one will exhibit these abnormalities under certain stress, or sickness'.
The person who truly has an emotional, or Mental disorder will continuously exhibit the chemical responses, or the off Neuron firings. And even then, it does not mean it will always happen, so there isn't really a "line" that can be drawn there that 100% states that this will or will not happen again.
That uncertainty.... For most people, is enough to limit the amount of responsibilities and allowances in people who have shown past behavior that suggests they could be a threat.

And AGAIN.. TRUST isn't totally about your personality, it is also about your capabilities and what you have exhibited in the past.

That can apply to every one. On MANY different levels. But, known behavior that has happened before is looked at with caution and suspicion to insure it is not triggered some how again. Once that "trust" is broken, trusting on any level is hard to do.

kirstykiwi
04-04-06, 05:54 PM
Phplatonica,
Of course you can be a chemist, doctor or whatever if you have the ability. Tons of psychiatrists etc enter the field through their own experience. And I know police officers with Bi polar. This is in NZ rather than the US though. I guess it depends whether you are under a mental health act -'committed' or not. The mental health act here is discriminatory - one cannot choose their own treatment or live where they want or see who they want sometimes unless the doctors ok it.
You need to 'join them' rather than beat them - health professonals. Become one yourself, and do your bit to improve consumers lives. Be a support worker or something, and be an agent of change for the mental health system.
Hold your head up and say "I have a mental illness" proudly, as you are a survivor. Its so common now, you aren't out of the ordinary. OK? Cheers

jshatz
04-05-06, 05:01 AM
Most of these conditions are personal and no one's business but their own. With bi-polar, in the manic phase, they are often quite effective and motivated people. I would think with certain professions, like child care and police work, they would and should be screened out. Depression can be a temporary condition, though.

This is not necessarily true. Someone can function well in a HYPOmanic episode (which is part of Type 2 Bipolar), but most in true MANIA cannot function well for long in that state. There are racing thoughts, pressured speech, motivation for goal directed behaviors (though they often cannot complete tasks), excessive impulses (especially for risk taking behaviors like sex, drugs, or spending money), and sometimes even psychosis can occur in an acute manic state.

Mania is not always a "high" and euphoric state either. Mania symptoms can be extreme irritability, rage and poor judgment. There are also "mixed" states of mania and depression which can be very confusing and horrible for the person experiencing them. In fact alot of violence and suicide in people with bipolar disorder happen in the manic or mixed state. Even Vincent van Gigh had spent 70 days doing 70 paintings in a manic state right before he committed suicide.


And for depression, there are different severities of clinical depression. The type that comes with bipolar type 1 can be short lived, or it can last months, or people can have several episodes in one year. It can be a debilitating mental illness without treatment. Even with treatment (medication and therapy) people may still cycle, but not be as severe.

jshatz
04-05-06, 05:09 AM
Phplatonica,
Of course you can be a chemist, doctor or whatever if you have the ability. Tons of psychiatrists etc enter the field through their own experience. And I know police officers with Bi polar. This is in NZ rather than the US though. I guess it depends whether you are under a mental health act -'committed' or not. The mental health act here is discriminatory - one cannot choose their own treatment or live where they want or see who they want sometimes unless the doctors ok it.
You need to 'join them' rather than beat them - health professonals. Become one yourself, and do your bit to improve consumers lives. Be a support worker or something, and be an agent of change for the mental health system.
Hold your head up and say "I have a mental illness" proudly, as you are a survivor. Its so common now, you aren't out of the ordinary. OK? Cheers


When I applied for my state psychotherapy license, a question on the application stated "Have you ever been treated for a mental illness or substance abuse?". If you mark yes, you have to send all kinds of waiver paperwork to the board, including treatment and releases from psychiatric assessments stating you are stable to provide healthcare. The disorders they worry about are the SPMI (Severe and Persistent Mental Illness), mostly schizophrenia and bipolar. There is still stigma, but I think licensing boards for professionals who put people's emotional and physical care in their hands, want to assure that they can adequately provide the care.

I had an inpatient client tell me, not to long ago, that if he knew his therapist or psychiatrist had mental problems he would doubt the treatment effectiveness. Interesting!

kirstykiwi
04-05-06, 02:48 PM
After knowing consumers who have been in the system for years, I honestly think they are aware that their conditions keep them from entering the workforce full time. Most consumers I know lack the motivation and ability- however, I do know lots who do part time work and that suits them fine.

And it's true that some consumers do not want to be treated by health professionals who have had their own mental health issues.
There is a wonderful woman who is a consumer here that started up an advoacy service - for consumers by consumers, which gives service users a chance of advocating for service users in a safe, empathetic environment because sometimes its the health professionals who are most discriminatory.
I like to use strenghs theory as it is sometimes a humbling insight into others who have heaps to offer, when society doesn't give a damn.
I guess its a fair enough question to ask as an employer whether you have had a mental illness or been treated for substance abuse - I guess it all depends on the level of responsibility of the job if you want to lie about it though.

jshatz
04-05-06, 03:32 PM
After knowing consumers who have been in the system for years, I honestly think they are aware that their conditions keep them from entering the workforce full time. Most consumers I know lack the motivation and ability- however, I do know lots who do part time work and that suits them fine.

And it's true that some consumers do not want to be treated by health professionals who have had their own mental health issues.
There is a wonderful woman who is a consumer here that started up an advoacy service - for consumers by consumers, which gives service users a chance of advocating for service users in a safe, empathetic environment because sometimes its the health professionals who are most discriminatory.
I like to use strenghs theory as it is sometimes a humbling insight into others who have heaps to offer, when society doesn't give a damn.
I guess its a fair enough question to ask as an employer whether you have had a mental illness or been treated for substance abuse - I guess it all depends on the level of responsibility of the job if you want to lie about it though.

I also operate from a strengths perspective and solution oriented model. I think clients/consumers (you must be a new age clinician like me ;) )who advocate and are involved in their treatment tend to do well. It is a treatment in itself. And I agree, with the SPMI mental illnesses, it is hard to maintain professional jobs, especially those which require human services.

It's an interesting contrast that I find many of my clients who abuse substances use the defense of "you have never been in my shoes, how can you help me?"; whereas many clients who have mental illness state "If you have walked in my shoes, you are not stable enough to help me". I have never had a mental illness or substance abuse problem/diagnosis. A heart surgeon does not have to have heart surgery to know how to provide the treatment!

PHPlatonica
04-05-06, 03:43 PM
Kirsty, are you a Mental health worker??

PHPlatonica
04-05-06, 03:54 PM
So, for me to say "Trust" is misleading. Of course, I knew it would be to an extent. like claiming "The Sky is blue"... Sure it is, some times... he he... I wanted to pull people in here.

People tend to take that term trust to a more personal level.

It is ok. I know that there are incredible things that I can endure and am more capable of BECAUSE of being bipolar. Then there is the sadness of trying to accept that no, I will not be like every one else. Which can lead to a more depressed state.

I really would like a more open minded view in a lot of ways, from BOTH sides of the spectrum. From Sufferers, to the every day person.

I feel that for myself, knowing what the general population feels, thinks and sees in people with mental disabilities, will help ME to cope more with the behavior I feel that I am facing.
It is my way of doing MY part to meld into the general population. I do not ever want to USE my "disability" as a crutch. I use it for an explanation. But with the right counseling, and family I have learned that even though it was an uncontrollable reaction to something, I am still responsible (just like every one else) for my actions.
With the right treatment, I learned that I can not expect to place my hand in fire and not get burned. Whether I meant to put it in the fire or if it was an accident. The consequence is the burning.
The same applies in the "real world". Though, I really want to break some of the stigmas behind the way the average social structure see and group "Mental Illness".

MOST people with a mental or emotional problem are already tortured. The "Psycho Killer" is a rare phenomenon. Yet, we see in movies and news stories that serial killers are "psycho" there is some thing wrong with the brain. We group in ALL mental illnesses.
When that is usually not the case at all.

When you are in therapy with a decent Doctor and counselor, you learn ways to COPE with society. You don't learn what society thinks of you, or how you can teach society that you are not a threat. You PROVE that you aren't. You SHOW that you are alright.
The perception of most every day things are different with a person who is suffering from a mental altercation.

A way for perhaps a person who doesn't suffer on a day to day basis, would be to trigger a memory of a feeling. Perhaps of being very afraid. Don't think of the situation that triggered the fear, just the fear.
Under certain mental distress, these chemicals release and trigger those feelings. In people who suffer with a disorder, these chemicals are OVERLY released, and some times just released with out cause.
That makes it hard for a functional person to comprehend. The behavior is what they see, not the chemical reaction. Imagine losing your bladder for no reason on stage during your speech. (DOH!)
Even though people with feel bad for you that that happened, the shame and embarrassment of not being able to control the bladder will still effect and bother you.
You will do things to avoid that situation again. Any where from never giving a speech again, to having to wear bladder control underwear. Even if it may never happen again in your life, the embarrassment triggered is so devastating. Seeing the people who witnessed the accident, even if they are sympathetic just triggers that feeling of shame again.
When you have an emotional out burst that you could not stop, it doesn't matter what any one else thinks, the shame an embarrassment that haunt you after is very hard to deal with. you want to hide away. you want to shrug it off and blame it on your disability. You punish yourself for "letting" it happen. All of these things tie into a knot that seems impossible to untangle until you let it go. But you never completely let it go.

There is this WHOLE different world going on in your head that you are trying to deal with, along with trying to function and communicate in the woken world.

Being Bipolar your entire views shift. There is a lot of inner self justification going on. The decisions that are finely made, are only made up for that moment. And there is no stability in that. Then sense of security is not there because it changes to different extremes at different rates. THIS we as sufferers know. We know to put trust in other things that may be more stable. Doctors, family, work, depending on their OWN stability to help comfort the lack of stability we have. It takes a strong person or facility to do that. Most people do not have that strength. The ones that do, seem more harsh and commanding. Treating you as if your a child and incapable of EVERY thing. When in truth, it is occasionally that you are not capable of handling something. And most people with this disability know it enough to warn a person that they just can not take it.

Some where, in all of this, there needs to be a balance and acceptance placed in a social structure. An understanding to a degree. Blind people accept that they are not capable of driving. You don't see them picket lining to drive. (??) The general population works with the blind to help mix them into society.
But, when it comes to emotional instability, you are treated different. People become cautious around you. There is no being treated like every one else.
I think people do that because most of our communication to one another depends on the emotions exhibited. When you are emotionally messed up from time to time, it closes off that stability.

I would hope that a line can be drawn with acceptance. An acceptance that doesn't include pity or jealousy. Perhaps one that works on the strengths we have in this illness.
One that will lesson peoples fears and stigmas. Especially the paranoia's.
Any human is capable of unspeakable acts regardless of mental altercations.

Of course, then there is the OVER medicating that seems to happen, that makes a lot of people who are in my shoes very distrustful of the motives BEHIND why those medications are prescribed.

kirstykiwi
04-05-06, 04:12 PM
Phplactonica,
My story is that 6 years ago I went through ah hellish time with an axiety disorder that ended me up in the mental health unit and under mh services for a while. I could not believe the suffering consumers go through and I became facsinated in Mental health issues, and wanted to help in any way I could. So I did a Certificate of Mental Health Support Work, and last year I completed a Diploma in Social Work, so I could work in a hospital setting (no nursing for me, I'd be hopeless).
I really admire people with mental illness, they are true survivors.

johny_israel
04-05-06, 05:12 PM
man i don't trust anyone
i don't care what you have it's about the choices a person makes not their natural flaws
all of our human nature is untrustworthy
so to me trust is proven over time
because really, for me anyways, i can't control my fealings and thoughts
but i can control my actions
and it's a persons actions that really count

PHPlatonica
04-05-06, 08:32 PM
Yea... That makes Sense johny... hhmm..
so what do you think of forgivness?

johny_israel
04-06-06, 04:43 PM
well basically im not gonna waste my time holding a grudge against someone i could give a shit less about
i've just basically learnt that that person definately cant be trusted, why waste anymore time on them
as for someone close to myself hurting me, that would be harder to forgive, so there its a tough one
depends on the situation
i suppose forgive and move on, even though it would still be hard to do
but for me i have a hard time getting close to anyone
for those reasons, i find it hard to turst people
and when i do trust someone or care about someone i think i probably get too attatched
so i try and stay away from it in general because trust and respect are very hard to find

Quantum Quack
04-06-06, 09:26 PM
PHP , great thread,

Trust vs market pressures:
Say we use the example of a person applying for a job as an airline pilot.
Say he has to fill in the application form and it asks if he or she has had a history of cardio- vascular disease, that or high blood pressure.

If he answers yes and is recieving medication for tis condition would the airline be justified in discounting his application on the grounds of
"duty of care" to their passengers?

Would they be prepared to place an aircraft with 300 odd passengers in the hands of someone who has the potential for a sudden change in medical condition and one that seems to be reactive to pressures such as occur sometimes with aircraft?

Is it a question of trust or is it a question of dealing with the reality that a person with said medical condition would simply be an uneccessary risk when there are others with out a history of medical problems that could just as easilly be used to fill the role?

Is it about trust or is it about market driven concerns, such as getting the best employee [ or spouse, confidante', companion etc] for the job that they can get?

Even if we disregard mental health issues for a minute we may consider if we wish, that trust may be a floating concept and what most persons do is mitigate the need to trust in the first place. For example: most employers now use cameras over tills even if their own family is using them and so on....So is it really a trust issue?

Or simply a market driven risk minimisation strategy that people apply and not just to their work situations but also to their private situations as well?

Just some alternative thoughts to throw in the pool.....

BTW nice to read you KirstyKiwi....

Tnerb
04-07-06, 12:14 AM
I was diagnosed schizoaffective disorder depressed type; generalized anxiety diorder; possible schizophrenia; that's the worse part. I found the thread interesting because Quantum is raising the issue of trusting these people ( I think ).

I certainly would agree to their safty being a risk for society.
A far as trust, who trust? It all depends.

It should be known though that society can't trust people who are prone to in-proniety. lol Most definately they can't be trusted as far as goes such things but it depends.
yeah :)

stretched
04-07-06, 06:29 AM
Your dialogue here is very enriching to me PHP. Thanks for sharing this exploration. From my perspective, your posts certainly allow me to form a fairly trustworthy opinion of yourself, and one of a percieved stability. Would you say that you generally trust yourself? How would you diagnose yourself regarding the "trust" factor?

Capo Crimini
04-07-06, 07:13 AM
I think it really depends on the person. I have bipolar disorder (type 1), and people have no problem trusting me. But people have different personality traits regardless of diagnosis, and I think they are more important when it comes to trust.

Quantum Quack
04-07-06, 10:24 AM
I was diagnosed schizoaffective disorder depressed type; generalized anxiety diorder; possible schizophrenia; that's the worse part. I found the thread interesting because Quantum is raising the issue of trusting these people ( I think ).

I certainly would agree to their safty being a risk for society.
A far as trust, who trust? It all depends.

It should be known though that society can't trust people who are prone to in-proniety. lol Most definately they can't be trusted as far as goes such things but it depends.
yeah :)

Sorry to correct you but PHP gets the credit for raising this issue. My post was only to broaden the discussion a little.
I personally think it is an extremely difficult and vexing question to answer.
I think it took a great deal of courage to start the thread and I tips me hat to PHP and all who have and are particpating in it.

kirstykiwi
04-07-06, 10:45 AM
Hi QQ, Always nice to read your non confrontational sensitive points of view.
I think the pilot anology would be based on trust rather than market driven forces as you say because of safety reasons - they would fail their medical on the grounds you mentioned. ( Al ot of pilots have substance abuse issues and still fly). I would not trust a surgeon with parkinsons to operate on me, yet I would trust information he could give as he is qualified.
I suppose it all depends on the job, and the level of safety. The person with a mh diagnosis may be looked upon by an employer as someone who might take a lot of time off work, which would be a market driven force.
I tend to look at the character of a person - that tells a lot.

Tnerb
04-07-06, 06:33 PM
Sorry to correct you but PHP gets the credit for raising this issue. My post was only to broaden the discussion a little.
I personally think it is an extremely difficult and vexing question to answer.
I think it took a great deal of courage to start the thread and I tips me hat to PHP and all who have and are particpating in it.
I agree, and thanks for the correction.

I went through a lot of shit a while ago. Now i'm still going through shit. I went to the life mannagement center for the adult day class, or whatever. There were a lot of people there. Many different types,

Honestly I thought I was lucky to not be as bad off as they were....
I thought they were people who were nice and sensitive. But there were a lot or a few liars and people you can still trust who were at the same time, angry or violent.
One guy there lied about his popularity and talked with another (paranoid schizophrenia) guy trying to be cool. I thought they seemed "normal" as far as that goes,

As I said I thought I was lucky and I told my teacher there Thomas Huber was his name: a psychologist and philosopher or so he pretty much said; we talked a lot.
I some times suggested things we could do and didn't get what I wanted from it.

But as it comes out, I think a lot of these people can be trusted. Maybe just the very bad ones.

Quantum Quack
04-07-06, 10:03 PM
Hi QQ, Always nice to read your non confrontational sensitive points of view.
I think the pilot anology would be based on trust rather than market driven forces as you say because of safety reasons - they would fail their medical on the grounds you mentioned. ( Al ot of pilots have substance abuse issues and still fly). I would not trust a surgeon with parkinsons to operate on me, yet I would trust information he could give as he is qualified.
I suppose it all depends on the job, and the level of safety. The person with a mh diagnosis may be looked upon by an employer as someone who might take a lot of time off work, which would be a market driven force.
I tend to look at the character of a person - that tells a lot.

I am not sure, but I think what I was attempting to say was that I don't think trust is quite the right word for this issue. I trust implicitly and also realise that a person may be handicapped in a way that whilst not compromising that trust limits it's ability to manifest itself in a productive [ work or employment] manner.

I am trying I guess to compare this question to any other physical dis-ability. AS to whether this effects a deep and personal trust ...I don't think so. Although behaviours may be such that that trust is truely tested.

I said earlier that this issue is vexatious to the extreme. Possibly because of all the differring perspectives involved.

It has much to do with how a health condition such as we are discussing compromises the degree of predictability that another less challenged person can determine. As outcomes vs intent seems to be not so well related.

But does this relate to the issue of trust. I doubt it.

As the disability places a person in a precarious postion, he or she have a less ability to predict their own futures which leads on to an inability to provide such for someone else. But again is this a trust issue? Or is it more of a reality of condition issue?

Sheesh!!! this is a tough question........

PHPlatonica
04-08-06, 01:01 AM
let me break this down.

There are things that a personal with mentaland emotional abilities could never possibly do, and get a sense of trust from every one in doing them. Period.

I want to show that "life isn't fair" in many ways, but if we take "trust" as a personal issue, than we are lying to our selves and others.
I seems t boiled down to abilities. Sire every one is prone to mess up. Those of us who have showed repetitive "distrust" or "lack of complete capability are not people who SHOULD do certain things. And that should be ok. With all of us.

As Jshatz pointed out, there are things that under certain conditions a person can do. The bottom issue IT TRUSTING. Not trusting their person, but rather their capability.

What the world could do to help this, is FIND capabilities in people with disorders that they CAN Achieve, and show that they can.
But it isn't this way. There is a stigma that these "mentally challenged" can not handle a HUGE variety of jobs.
There isn't enough work being put in to help them achieve those abilities, rather, they are hidden from society through welfare and Disability. The depression of never being able to prove then CAN achieve these things because of a diagnoses leads to hatred, and suicide.

It is where I am. And Have been for a time. I know what I am capable of doing. And I know what LEGAL Chemicals help me achieve prolong out burst.. But the stigma itself behind Drugs of ANY kind, Like LEGAL, set up this wrongness in peoples mind.
Is it so hard to admit that if I am Lacking a chemical, and there is a pill that can fill in that missing chemical, shouldn't I be able to take it? Or should I not take it because %95 people can not take it with out a drug altering "affect"... so in stead I am put on something heavier and more dangerous like Zyprexa, and thorazine? things that make me LESS functional?

When Will the Profession listen to US about what we have tried and succeeded with? Like velum?
Where is the line of "dependency Drawn"???
I depend on my medication. With out them, I am not better then a Street Junky robbing to acquire them. A lot of Dr.s fear drug abuse, but there are pills an places for daily and weekley injections. But these things are not achieved. So We do with out, untill we act out.. and whos the bad guy then>?

PHPlatonica
04-08-06, 01:28 AM
Your dialogue here is very enriching to me PHP. Thanks for sharing this exploration. From my perspective, your posts certainly allow me to form a fairly trustworthy opinion of yourself, and one of a percieved stability. Would you say that you generally trust yourself? How would you diagnose yourself regarding the "trust" factor?
Trust :)

well, thank you.
I have not been "Trustworthy" in the conflicting of my emotions. They have gotten me into more troubles then I can ever possibly explain.
When the fear and mania creep in, I am afraid "trust" no longer exist for me. I am scared, and I think every on has alternative motive. I do one of two things under those circumstances.

ONE: I will lash out, and feel that everything said and done to me was an alternative motive. Like, thinking my roommate was putting brake fluid in my coffee in order to kill me slowly. SO I would make him drink from my cup every time he poured me coffee.
Other times when I could not find something, I would lash out that it was stolen. Though I had no proof. When I confronted the accused, I was blown off as being paranoid. And not just that, the person was hurt that I did not trust them. It grew from there, to where people thought, I I could not "trust" then I must not be trust worthy.
I worked on this for a long time. Until I could not longer take it and I slit my wrists.
This just proved I was weak and not trust worthy when I was found. I am afraid pity was never something given to me.
It seemed to me there would never be away out. And when the psychosis started, it was more of a friend. I no longer had to trust any one. But it changed my perception of reality. I found I hated more things that liked. When I tried desperately hard to make it all go away, I was alone. And crazy, then given pills. Many of which locked me inside the hell in my head. I became fascinated with the dead. In almost a jealously.
I wanted so much to be the way I perceived people were. The ones who did not physically hurt them self. Or depend on chemicals to function. I would never be like them. Not in my mind.
I looked for others like me. But the questions I wanted to ask them where hushed away by the Doctors and Counselors. Afraid that I might give them more ideas. When All I wanted to know was WHY? Why could I not love my self the way other people did? Why were thoughts and feelings so against me?
Telling these things to a Psychologist ended me up in another asylum. And I realized that NO BODY knew why. They just new different chemicals to protect other people from my oddness, and hopefully protect myself. But that protection, for me, was nothing more then being trapped inside my own night mares.
I ran away from it all. I made believe in things. Lived some fantasy world where some day I could "go to this mythical place" that I belonged. I began to take Prozac. That slowed the depression. And Velum for the mania attacks.

But I refuse to believe I am the only one like this. With a mind, and backwards morals.
So, Trust..... I do not trust. I do not trust any entity. I fear them, though with people I perceive like my self, I admire them and want to learn what they know.

PHPlatonica
04-08-06, 10:50 AM
I think it really depends on the person. I have bipolar disorder (type 1), and people have no problem trusting me. But people have different personality traits regardless of diagnosis, and I think they are more important when it comes to trust.
Dearest Capo Crimini,

I grew up in a small town where "known diagnoses" like mine, were looked not as a problem, but a "situational choice". Some one who seeks attention.
Of course, a lot of that thinking was sadly altered when my sister and parents entered my bed room hearing me scream and cry.
I was 13 at the time. VERY young, but wanting all this to end. Unfortunately, when the artery was nicked, the blood shot in my face and I screamed. Bringing attention to the rest of the house hold. My Sweet sister, ran into the room first. She began to scream as well. Shortly after, my mother and step father and brother came in.
There was blood every were. In my face, my hair. One hell of a way to learn about the pressure of blood and biology. I went into shock. I screamed and couldn't stop. When my mother entered the room, she slapped my litter sister across the face and screamed at her "What have you done to your sister?". She had a horrible welt on her check.
My mother then, in shock turned to my step father, and screamed at him. He jolted back and hit the hallway walls. He fell into tears. My strong father turned into this weak confused person.
My Mother left the room and grabbed a wet towel. She wrapped it around my wrist and shook me. She said "What are you thinking you self ish slut?" She grabbed the toweled arm and brought me to the ER.
Why did I fail? there was so much blood, and I know I would not have screamed if the blood and copper smell hadn't hit me in the face.
We enter the ER, my mother and I. I am crying, I can't even remember what lead up the discussion, everything they took place after word was more traumatizing. I begged to be dead. I called out to my mother as they scraped the fat cells out of my wrist.
The Dr. were forceful. They asked me things like "why did I want to do such an awful thing?" and "how did I think god felt?" I said, if god were there he would have stopped me would he? This seemed to make them angry. No longer were their bed side table manners. they told my mother I was hateful. I looked up to her and said I was sorry. She said she knew I was sorry, sorry I didn't die. Then she told me she was disgusted with me. The clotting, the smell of blood copper and iodine. she said I was no better then my father.
She left the exam room. But I was better then him. I was sober. I was only 13.
She told me from that day on, that she could never ever trust me. Not to make any decisions. That she couldn't wait till I graduated from school. And how she hated me for what I had done to the family.
I was alone.
She was right. What had I done? and WHY?
the pain I felt was so strong, but wording it out right was trivial. When I had talked about my feeling and the strength of them in the past, I was told to shrug them off. But the emotions stayed. It was the emotion, not the situation I was fighting so much with.
The staring of into space. The change of perspectives.
That doesn't include the psychosis that would happen. Keeping me awake from days on end. With the lights off. Staring out at a star lit sky praying that please some one take this away. There has to be another way. A different way.
I would try to attempt things, like school events, friends in the drama team. I didn't like any of them. They were so phony. No were for me. I began to party. To be around people who would at least act similar to how I felt. For a time any way. But that just made me more untrust worthy.
I had to face it, some thing was wrong with my perception. Why could I not cope and understand the people I lived around in an every day basis? SO MANY times, it would have been easier to be dead. But, I always failed. I wouldn't shoot my self because I was so afraid of living. I have taken more pills into my body then a system should be able to hold with out destroying their organs. I mixed up drugs, I drank some bleach. But I failed at that too, my gagreflexes couldn't handle the burn and taste. I am a failure.

So, Eventually, with all these experiences under my belt, I thought perhaps I had a better meaning. Maybe a god, or a guardian angel? or just REAL dumb luck.
I evaluated people. Trying to learn what it is they were so holding on to life for??
I began to dress up, lose weight.change my appearance. Become more shy. That wasn't how I felt inside though.
The things I have seen, and done will always ensure that there is no hope for my self. That isn't self pit, it's matter of fact.
But I can change in the way I react with people. Tell them my experiences. Let them know any choice they have is there's. But that there is some one here, existing in this hell. So I know it is possible to do it. Especially with 1/2 apathy and 1/2 empathy.

So Don't give up. It isn't always great. But the repercussions of the fuck ups, will hold you too a prison that your mind will never escape.

PHPlatonica
04-08-06, 01:50 PM
In recent years, NIMH has introduced a new generation of "real-world" clinical studies. They are called "real-world" studies for several reasons. Unlike traditional clinical trials, they offer multiple different treatments and treatment combinations. In addition, they aim to include large numbers of people with mental disorders living in communities throughout the U.S. and receiving treatment across a wide variety of settings. Individuals with more than one mental disorder, as well as those with co-occurring physical illnesses, are encouraged to consider participating in these new studies. The main goal of the real-world studies is to improve treatment strategies and outcomes for all people with these disorders. In addition to measuring improvement in illness symptoms, the studies will evaluate how treatments influence other important, real-world issues such as quality of life, ability to work, and social functioning. They also will assess the cost-effectiveness of different treatments and factors that affect how well people stay on their treatment plans.

PHPlatonica
04-08-06, 01:59 PM
Schizoaffective
Basic Principles
Both drug and psychosocial therapies are necessary to successfully treat schizoaffective disorder. Because of the unemployment, poverty, and homelessness that often complicates schizoaffective disorder, drug therapy alone usually is insufficient. Drug therapy usually can stop the patient's psychosis, but often only social and occupational rehabilitation therapies can overcome the associated unemployment, poverty and homelessness. Recovering from schizoaffective disorder is an extremely lonely experience, and these patients require all the support that their families, friends, and communities can provide.

Schizoaffective disorder appears to be a combination of a thought disorder, mood disorder, and anxiety disorder. Thus the medical management of schizoaffective disorder oftens requires a combination of antipsychotic, antidepressant, and antianxiety medication. Unfortunately, after the first year of treatment, only a minority of schizoaffective outpatients remain on their oral medications. Thus long-acting, depot antipsychotic medications that last 2-4 weeks between injections (e.g., depot haloperidol, pipotiazine, or fluphenazine) usually are required to overcome this noncompliance problem

PHPlatonica
04-08-06, 04:52 PM
I am still finding it hard to believe in some one who is prone to so many mental moods and perceptions. They change to extremes. Where is the trust in that? Can any one answer me this???

PHPlatonica
04-09-06, 10:32 PM
Maybe.. there isn't any hope for us at all... Maybe we should be shown the the "shower rooms".... What do we have to contribute to any one?

stretched
04-10-06, 01:40 AM
PHP
"So, Trust..... I do not trust. I do not trust any entity. I fear them, though with people I perceive like my self, I admire them and want to learn what they know."

You display such wonderful courage and honesty. My hat off to you, and the deepest bow possible. Thanks for sharing so much, you are helping me to understand a great deal about poeple close to me. Some present still, and some departed.

stretched
04-10-06, 01:53 AM
PHP
"Maybe.. there isn't any hope for us at all... Maybe we should be shown the the "shower rooms".... What do we have to contribute to any one?"

You are contributing here, now. Fuck the shower rooms. Kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.

PHPlatonica
04-10-06, 03:37 PM
My heart is to heavy to hold on to the things I have.
My feelings emotions, taunt me and stab.

It seems that darkness, is this place built just for us.
A place that calls to me, and tells me I need no Trust.

The pain it echo's in a horse and mute choir.
But upon deaf ear, its is unheard, and uninspired.

I want to live to day again. Just to know I am here.
I wish to take the razor away, and slash out word at my fear.

The rage and torment I find in my soul is hollow shallow and cold.
It is hard to hold ones head up so high, to be virtuoso and bold.

So I cry in my Darkness, and make music from the whimpers.
And take in deep breathes, hoping all this will be tempered.

Huwy
04-13-06, 10:48 PM
Thankyou PHP for starting this post and for sharing your very personal experiences with us.
It is always saddening to hear about people's worst experiences with mental illness and suicide attempts. It must have been heartbreaking the way your mother and the people in the hospital acted. It constantly amazes me how unwilling parents are to take responsibility for their children's problems.
It is encouraging though to hear people tell of how they have come through the worst times in their lives and have survived, and are seeking to understand themselves.

I'm not a psychologist or a doctor, I'm just a psychology student.
In answer to your question about trusting people with these mental illnesses, I would say generally - yes they can be trusted, but then most of my experiences with them haven't been negative ones.
One of the students I share a house with (a new friend of mine) suffers from bipolar disorder and I totally trust her.
Personally - whether I trust people is totally dependent on the person.

The people I am cautious about trusting aren't just the people with mental illness - they are people with a history of violence, people who hit their children, people who believe that their god wants them to kill people who don't share their beliefs.

I am cautious about trusting politicians who lie (most of them), telemarketers, people who are trying to sell you something.
If a parent with mental illness really wants to be a good loving parent then they will be, but being a good parent can be difficult, and those parents, and MANY others, should seek some advice and support.

People who have a history of mental illness can go on to many careers including doctors, nurses, psychologists - although of course it would be very difficult to complete their study and training if they were still suffering from those illnesses, and it would be a good idea for people (thats EVERYONE, not just people with a history of mental illness) to get their lives together and balanced, and under control.

Unfortunately most people lack knowledge and understanding about mental illnesses and they way they can affect so many people. The stigma against mental illness and those who suffer from it is still common in all societies.
People who hold a prejudice against those who have been diagnosed with a mental illness are simply ignorant to the possible causes and circumstances.
I mean, I wouldn't trust a suicidal person with a razor blade, but that would be because I cared about them, and wouldn't want them to hurt themselves. That doesn't mean they are thieves, or are violent towards others.

Trust can refer to a lot of different things, trust can be important in a lot of different areas of life.

I don't trust politicians with their armies and their weapons, I don't trust the media with their ability to misinform people.

On the other hand I've had interesting conversations with people who live on the street.

To sum up my opinion, I think people who have sought professional help and have been diagnosed with a mental illness are actually on the (often long) road to recovery.

On the other hand, people that have no idea that they are hurting others (e.g. "Operation Iraqi Freedom"), and have no intention of questioning their thoughts or actions - people who think they are perfect and there is nothing wrong with them, they are the ones you have to watch out for.
The question is really whether each person (diagnosed or not) is capable of "hurting" others. I'm NOT sure that people who have been diagnosed with the mental illnesses you've mentioned are actually MORE LIKELY to hurt people, or be untrustworthy.

People who take the pain in their lives and direct it inwards (neurotic) are mostly only a threat to themselves.


I believe that science can offer some understanding into mental illnesses and can provide a lot of solutions as to how those suffering from it can enjoy the better quality of life that they deserve.

Take care everyone, I hope you find the answers you are looking for.
Huw
:)
(PHPlatonica I sent you a private message).

PHPlatonica
04-17-06, 11:28 AM
I haven't written in a while because I have so much to say.
But I wonder how many people actually read this thread.
I suppose it doesn't matter, because it I good for me.
I have not been the best of persons lately. I have digressed under the skin of my own disease.

Afraid of things that go bump in the night AND the Day. I have trapped my self into a world that makes no sense to any one. Not even myself at times.
This is where the TRUST comes into play.

I know, that with these battling emotions, and strange chemicals, there is a quality of my being that is fake. Anything "fake" is not to be trusted. That is just human nature.
And I am Ok with that. But It does make me sad in the heart.

I so Wish people could understand, not KNOW, but understand what a burden it is to be "two" or more things in one person. To be guidable and hateful. To be Happy and resentful.
And doing this through out hours of the day.
I wish people could understand what a Pain in the ass it is to tell your self every day at least once an hour that your just "swinging" don't react. As bad as you want to react.
But, then you do things when you SHOULD react, but your not so sure, and you do not react to those things.
There is no place for people with mental instability, but I can assure you we are trying so hard to be heard. Our thoughts are unique, and even important at times. our emotions just fail us from time to time. It is hard to hold onto a reality that shifts within seconds.

The medications for this disability are, tough in them selves. It doesn't work the same for every one, but for me, it is like my mind is an ice cube floating around, when I turn my head it takes seconds for my brain to catch up. At that point, there is something physically different about me, and people respond to that. then they "know".
A lot of these medicines cause Drooling, stagnation, stumbling, and not coherently getting the words out. Not to mention loss of memory. And Libido. And when your BPD or Bipolar, one of the best ways to get attention is through your sexuality because you tend to be rather good at it.
The Doctors tell me to out weigh the benefits or medication. I assure you I have. At least being unmediated I can be a weirdo, or a freak. Medicated Obviously shows disability.
Maybe that is where people seem to hate medication so much then feel its some evil ploy to kill them slowly or make them shut up.
I do not feel this way, though I have read the Pharmaceutical market companies and what they do to get their products out.
I am thank full that I know the difference.

So Please, any one out there, talk to me. I know that this will stop again.... but right now, it hurts, and I am afraid.
I had over heard my step father once mention to my mom that I would be nothing more then a bag lady.
Those words hurt. On the other hand, In institutions I Have met some WONDERFUL "bag ladies".... So human, full of heart. And Ideas. Not the ones I pictured who were crack smokers and such. Just real people with imaginations and no knowledge to write what they felt inside.
Well, AS much of a pain as these mental illness's are, I DO have hope in our NEW (Huwy and Jshatz) People who will help people like myself. Because they too want to understand and not hide us away any more. I thank you for that.
So can we bring this thread to an understand of this pain fully CONFUSING illness?
The trust, isn't personal trust... It's about finding a place for people like myself.

PHPlatonica
04-17-06, 03:56 PM
You know, Deep inside. When things are tangled. It is So very hard to place where reality should exist. as if it were some Line of a sort that is tangible and can be lifted and placed any where.... That would make it nothing. a nothing but a marker.... I pin point.
And Arrow that shows "YOU ARE HERE".....
In this Empty realm, like the back ground of a 3D imaging model there is no "Perfect point"..... The perfect Point, is only where you put it. What you create with it, what you destroy with it.
Such in life as well. Emotions.

Strange Frequencies they are. (I don't know what else to call them)
But they are yours to hold. Some have more then others. Some have none and can not comprehend. But it doesn't make it there, or none existent. Like Dancing to your favorite uplifting song, spinning excited with tears of hope. Pure happiness...........
But those who do not have them, wouldn't know they miss them. You can not know what you do not have. Can you?..... Is this Where jealousy and Empathy come into play?
how to get to the bottom of the well of emotion... Hamm


Im Manic Today.... And I am not slowing down... :)

Tnerb
04-18-06, 07:29 PM
I haven't written in a while because I have so much to say.
I know how you feel about that. I usually do the same thing. Ok not really :D But I have schizoaffective disorder depressed type as i've said in an eariler post, at least I was diagnosed with that. And, I think I am starting to understand a possible use for the thread, which I didn't understand eariler:

"Bipolar, Schizoaffective, etc; Can the General Population Trust em'?"
I take it as a statement to answer.
As... something to really get to.

I think that Huwy you gave some amazing info. And there is a lot more amazing info.
A question: Why aren't they able to be trusted?

That's what I want to know....
For example, are they innocent? Are they guilty? Are they at fault, a victem? What is the source of them not being able to be trusted?

Curious.

Huwy
04-18-06, 09:36 PM
As I said I personally base my preconceptions on whether i can trust people on factors other than their mental health, but I think perhaps that a lot of people are afraid that people with a history of mental illness may suddenly "snap" emotionally or behaviourally for some reason.

Also the media and news often reports people who are charged/convicted of terrible crimes as having a history of mental illness (its a commonly used defense) even though the majority of others who suffer from mental illness who don't commit crimes.

Perhaps people draw an association between the criminally violent/sex offenders behaviour and many of them being "mentally ill"???

Huwy
04-18-06, 09:39 PM
Just wanted to add that the majority of mental illnesses do not indicate a likelyhood of violent behaviour.

I believe the proportion of "violent psychopaths incapable of empathy" etc is actually very very small.

Rantaak
04-18-06, 10:31 PM
Personally, I believe that a person with bipolar, schiz, bpd or any personality disorder should be evaluated individually when it comes to "trust". A condition like this exists as a label, but does not define a person entirely. Having the bipolar condition myself and having experienced episodes of schizophrenia and extreme paranoia, I know that at times someone with these conditions can be very dangerous and irrational. People are afraid of this abnormality and hesitate to entrust those exhibiting these behaviors with positions of power (i.e. firearms, certain occupations, medication, etc.), however it is ones right as a human being (under our constitution) to apply for these positions. Denial should be given with a specific written reason and the knowledge that the position can be fought for in court. More importantly, it is ones right to do what they wish to themselves, and ones right to suffer the consequences (if there are any). As I've stated, each individual is different, and must be evaluated so.

Rantaak
04-18-06, 10:35 PM
I might also point out that medication for bipolar and schiz is also often inaffective. It can sometimes even worsen a problem.

Tnerb
04-19-06, 01:46 AM
I might also point out that medication for bipolar and schiz is also often inaffective. It can sometimes even worsen a problem.
I agree. I took anti-psychotics, and it may was supposed to help, though it didn't.

stretched
04-19-06, 07:24 AM
Great post Huwy. I can see that you have not yet been tainted by the established Psychology Academia.

Huwy:
ďThe question is really whether each person (diagnosed or not) is capable of "hurting" others. I'm NOT sure that people who have been diagnosed with the mental illnesses you've mentioned are actually MORE LIKELY to hurt people, or be untrustworthy.Ē

* I agree with you Huwy. I think human nature has a hard wired capability regarding violence and for inflicting pain of whatever nature. I tend to think persons with so called ďmental illnessĒ (perhaps apart from classic psychopathy and paranoid schizophrenia) are almost less likely to inflict pain, as in many ways they are so much more in touch with and honest with themselves. They tend to operate in a very, present tense, conscious manner and thus to a certain degree, question or evaluate all their actions. Which may limit hurtful actions. Just opinions on my part.

H:
ďI believe that science can offer some understanding into mental illnesses and can provide a lot of solutions as to how those suffering from it can enjoy the better quality of life that they deserve.Ē

* Good for you.

stretched
04-19-06, 07:38 AM
PHP:
ďSo Please, any one out there, talk to me. I know that this will stop again.... but right now, it hurts, and I am afraid.Ē

* I wish I could make a difference for you, but I know that I cannot. I cannot fit my foot into your shoe. But I can offer words. So for what itís worth, I wrote ďBugsĒ for you. Poem thread. Just as long as you keep looking for that ladder, it will be ok. Keep sharing with us here.

stretched
04-19-06, 07:45 AM
Regarding "trust", there are so many factors that could influence the awarding of "trust" in another, whatever their condition. And just 1 second of betrayal to tear it all apart. Until the next time. So I have always based "trust" on my intuition, rather than my logical thought processes. So far its been very succesfull. Its when I use my head that things go awry.

PHPlatonica
04-29-06, 09:34 AM
This isn't working well....

I lost total Faith and Trust... I guess I wanted every one to answered as honestly as possible, And it looks as thought you all have..... I thank you all for that.

I am not well. I am not "Trustable" right now.

Is it perhaps possible that people have a Hard "re" wiring to their mental state?
Where One minute things are all right, but then they are not.
I have lot total trust because I slit my wrist again... nothing deep. The worst was the pills I took. Im an UTTER Failure! I feel like (how did my sister put if about our father) Jason Voorhees I try to die but I keep Coming back.
Why does this happen? Not the suicide, but the bipolar state?
a good year and a half ago, I took my dad methadone's once every day. NO mood swings, no anger, and the thought of Death Disgusted me. I was high. Those thoughts were no longer needed. You know? but a year ago... When I decided he was just too bad for me, I had a crash off the Drug. Not as bad as I thought it would be. The hardest part is missing it. But then the truth of what I had been doing for over a year came out.... Along with other truths. no one comments on the fact that I was great for that year and a half. No fear to go out side. I took My children out. I accomplished artistic projects I wanted to do... and my House was clean... No, instead it was focused that I was high, and an Addict.
Fair this is not.

And now, I am no longer aloud car keys to leave, ... infact I am not aloud my own pills (understandably)..... I got in a fight so horrific with my old man the other night.....
I know I need, or probly need clinical help.... I don't want to go.. I hate those places, and I have honestly never came out of them any better. Never.

What I know, right now. Is I am afraid.

But I will Tell you one thing, I will Never be TRUSTED

Quantum Quack
04-29-06, 08:24 PM
Tarah,
I am sorry to hear that you are travelling rough at the moment. I understand that you are attempting to deal with the difficult reality of your predicament.

Is it possible however for you to delay or postpone your decision to depart this reality until after your children pass their 18th birthday?
Is it possible that you could focus on these future dates to grant you a purpose to your suffering?

Is it possible to give your self a reason to endure?

For what I see is a person who can see no purpose in her sufference and possibly if she can see a reason for her suffering she may find a reason for pleasure as well.

Start planning for their 18th birthdays now, try to imagine how much wiser and older they will be and how they also look to the future with certain insecurities and fears.

Aim even further and think of grand children and what names you could suggest for them.

Give reality a chance to show it deserved and deserves your attention, with out conditions. Unconditionally ask that you may be allowed to see just a mere 12 minutes of sunshine as I did many years ago.

You will be surprised I think by how often reality will grant your wish for 12 minutes. Eventually you will see those 12 minutes become a lifetime.......

Can you promise yourself to wait until your children have majored?

Create a purpose for your sufference, give your suffering a value that allows you to see worth in your existance. Just 12 minutes of sunshine....think about it....

Quantum Quack
04-29-06, 08:32 PM
A technique that may be helpfull.

" so I took my razor blade and I put in in a match box wrapped in tissue. I then wrote upon the surfaces of that match box the number 18, and found satisfaction that I could determine that date and no one else. So I carried that match box, with the razor inside, around in my pocket for 3 years until I forgot I had it.
And when 18 finally arrived I looked back at all those 12 minutes of sunshine I had been blessed with and thought about that match box with it's razor in it and smiled the smile of someone who had achieved a victory over darkness and despair"

PHPlatonica
05-08-06, 02:55 PM
Two sides to every world.

I think my staying would be more unhelpfull to my children. They do not need to see me freaking out all the time.

So, for this thread, I answered my own question. "Can we be trusted?"

No.
We run in any way we can to escape the Darker self inside. No matter where you go, there you are.

I half feel like I found more people to hurt. Here they are trying so desperatly to help me. But I do not understand why.
On the other hand, it was the only place left I wanted to turn.
Even my Suicide failed.
Some would say it is because I am here to serve a higher purpose.
Others would just say That I am an idiot and wasn't seriouse enough in my attempt or I would be dead.
But None of the "some ones" are here to experience what I did.

"science has a long way to go before there can be help past sedation.
I am sorry to any God and genetics for my self mutilation.
But hear me now, since you did not then..... I wont be past this, not ever again.
And the Days will pass, the flowers will grow. Theres a message in this that some may know.
I hate to stay, tho did not die any way..... But I wont go back nor live for today.
Of course there is hurt beyond and past murder. But this Exsistence is bull shit why go on any further?
Here I am, I will always be me. Manic Depresive theres no way to be free.
I will accept this again, as I have done in the past. And I know for sure the acceptance dose not last.
So Run away again, I am sure that I will. And harm not others, but this dilusion I will Kill.

Quantum Quack
05-08-06, 08:42 PM
Two sides to every world.

I think my staying would be more unhelpfull to my children. They do not need to see me freaking out all the time.

So, for this thread, I answered my own question. "Can we be trusted?"

No.
We run in any way we can to escape the Darker self inside. No matter where you go, there you are.

I half feel like I found more people to hurt. Here they are trying so desperatly to help me. But I do not understand why.
On the other hand, it was the only place left I wanted to turn.
Even my Suicide failed.
Some would say it is because I am here to serve a higher purpose.
Others would just say That I am an idiot and wasn't seriouse enough in my attempt or I would be dead.
But None of the "some ones" are here to experience what I did.

"science has a long way to go before there can be help past sedation.
I am sorry to any God and genetics for my self mutilation.
But hear me now, since you did not then..... I wont be past this, not ever again.
And the Days will pass, the flowers will grow. Theres a message in this that some may know.
I hate to stay, tho did not die any way..... But I wont go back nor live for today.
Of course there is hurt beyond and past murder. But this Exsistence is bull shit why go on any further?
Here I am, I will always be me. Manic Depresive theres no way to be free.
I will accept this again, as I have done in the past. And I know for sure the acceptance dose not last.
So Run away again, I am sure that I will. And harm not others, but this dilusion I will Kill.

Actually PHP my comments were not about the children but more about what you could want and how for you, seeing their 18ths would be something you could look forward to.

The idea is to make a pact with yourself to wait until after their 18th birthdays before taking any drastic steps. Allow them the chance and the time to show you the value of your ongoing existence sort of thing.

If you can make such a long term commitment to suffer for the number of years necessary it allows you a different perspective on what you do now and today. Just a suggestion OK?

The other thing I want to say, now that you have re-surfaced, was that this thread on the issue of trust has promoted significant thinking on the subject for me.

To me, trust expands to the issue of "suspicion" which then goes on to expand to the issue of "Fear".
It pointed me towards song sung by Elvis Presely "Suspicious minds" with the lyrics that read:



SUSPICIOUS MINDS

Weíre caught in a trap
I canít walk out
Because I love you too much baby

Why canít you see
What youíre doing to me
When you donít believe a word I say?

We canít go on together
With suspicious minds
And we canít build our dreams
On suspicious minds

So, if an old friend I know
Drops by to say hello
Would I still see suspicion in your eyes?

Here we go again
Asking where Iíve been
You canít see these tears are real
Iím crying

We canít go on together
With suspicious minds
And be canít build our dreams
On suspicious minds

Oh let our love survive
Or dry the tears from your eyes
Letís donít let a good thing die

When honey, you know
Iíve never lied to you
mmmm...yeah...



Music and words by Mark James

I went to my favourite coffee shop in my disguise as a CIA agent [ hmmmm....ha] and decided to study just how pervasive suspicion is in the general community. I must say your question certainly helped to show me the significance of suspicion generally.

So someone talks about paranormal experiences and immediately the sceptcal listeners thoughts become suspicious. Suspicious of that persons mental state and competancy.

Suspicion has a natural by-product caled dis-trust. They go hand in hand and can not be separated.

It seems that suspicion is a main reason for what separates people and keeps them from developing trust and strong and nurturing relationships.

What are your thoughts on this issue of suspicion PHP?

How does it effect the general publics perceptions about so called "normal" persons not to mention those persons that apprear to be challenged in other ways?

BTW,
It took a while but this thread has helped me enormously...and I thank you. ;)

Dreama
05-08-06, 10:44 PM
hello, all. I couldn't help but become interested in this thread. It touches so many things that have been parts of my life. Yes, QQ, suspicion and dis (or mis) trust, go hand in hand... but I think that FEAR is the bottom line emotion. When we have suspicions, or lack of trust, it is because we FEAR something that might be lurking there.

Sometimes when that fear and suspicion is attached to someone we LOVE, we try to make the suspicion and distrust go away... because we don't WANT it to be there... we try to ignore it.. or talk our selves out of it... or, better still, let our loved one talk us out of it... reassure us.

But... the thing is... when someone does something... lying.. cheating... whatever brings their trust-ability into doubt... then it is very very hard to NOT keep watching/worrying that it might happen again... ergo - suspicions and distrust.

But, when it is someone you love, you can't help but WANT TO BELIEVE THEM. And want to give them the chance to win your trust again.

Even when talking suspcision in the case of the person with paranormal experience really boils down to fear, I think.

Maybe the question to ask is, Just what are they afraid of?

and... PHP...

my heart goes out to you... and your children... and your family. And I hope you find what you need.

invert_nexus
05-14-06, 05:57 PM
Platonica,

Hmmm.
Where to begin with this little dainty?
Trust.
Issues of trust.

There are several issues that have been brought up that are quite interesting in an abstract sort of way. However, I am all too aware that there is a danger in the abstract. A danger in losing track of the true intent of this thread. A danger in losing sight of the overall meaning of Platonica's questions.
She is looking for something specific, methinks.


First. I suppose I'll address the issue at face value.

Trust.
How far can one trust the mentally ill? The mentally handicapped? The physicall handicapped for that matter. Or, hell, anyone, when it comes down to it?
Platonica has made the point very clearly when she said, "Should we just "feel sorry" for the blind doctor and look past the disability so far that our own lives COULD be in danger?"

Now. Pushing the element of 'pity' aside for now (I actually wrote a bit on this, but deleted it as it is off topic. Perhaps more later), it's been made plain that there ARE things that people cannot be trusted to do.

A blind man cannot be trusted to do delicate surgery. Although, people have done amazing things, overcome great handicaps, and one might well be surprised by just what a blind man is capable of.

Nor could you trust an untrained person to perform skills that require training. However. Again. Sometimes people can surprise you.

These are issues of competence.
Trusting someone to be competent in one area or another. Areas that depend upon certain attributes. Certain perceptions. Certain trainings. And when these attributes, perceptions, and/or trainings are absent then... there is a necessary lack of trust.


What of other issues of trust?
There seem to be several different areas being intermingled here. Perhaps a brief foray into categorization might be in order?
I've already mentioned issues of competence in technical skills.
What other categories might there be?

::
Issues of morality.
Issues of stability.
Issues of predictability.
Issues of creativity.
Issues of rationality.
Issues of aggression.
Issues of dependence.
::

I'm sure the list could go on for pages. These few should suffice for the time being, methinks.

In my thoughts on this subject, and from my reading of Platonica's words, and from my own life experiences, I believe that, at the core of this discussion, is the issue of predictability.

All the other issues intertwine and mingle. But, ijn practically all of them, we find the issue of predictability.

We depend upon people to be predictably moral. Either good or bad. Corrupt or innocent. Greedy or selfless. Loving or hateful.
We depend upon people to be predictable in their behaviors. To be rational or irrational. To be aggressive or nonaggressive. To react this way or that way to certain stimuli.

It is when people are unpredictable that these issues of trust reach a crescendo.
Life is about choice. Every step taken in life is a choice. To do this. To do that. To do nothing. To do something.
In order to make choices, we use induction as our primary tool. We remember our past. And we apply to this the likelihood of the future. We gauge the consequences of our actions based upon the consequences of past actions.

But when we can't predict the behavior of one who we share the world with... then we are uneasy.
When we don't know how to act around a person in order to elicit certain responses... then we are uneasy.
When we cannot accurately depend upon our predictions keeping us from danger. When aggression, anger, or even happiness and joy, come from other in an unpredictable manner... we are uneasy.

We are social animals. And part of the social fabric is a mechanism by which we can coexist. Which we can use to predict the actions of others. When a maverick enters the scene. One who is unpredictable.
Then we are uneasy.

We are unable to... be restful around them. Instead we must constantly be on the lookout for unexpected behaviors.

We are unable to trust.


So. What then?
What then do we have?
Can the mentally ill be trusted?
Can people suffering from Bipolarism be trusted in this way or that way? Because, at root, they are unpredictable. They change. Their world changes. From day to day. From hour to hour.
Can we trust?

What of the predictability of inpredictability?

Hmmm.


The fact of the matter is that there is no blanket statement that one can make. That one should make.
We cannot (or should not) say that we can trust or can not trust the mentally ill.
We cannot (or should not) say that we can trust the mentally ill to perform this or that task well or poorly.
To do so would be to do a grave disservice to the human being who is being labelled as 'mentally ill'.

As has been stated several times over, we must choose on a person by person basis.

This is on a social level.


What of other levels?
What about jobs? Positions of trust?
Can we afford to deal with them the same as we do on a personal level?
I don't think so.
I think that it is understandable that the default in certain positions of employment should be that ability must be proven.
This is not to say that the mentally ill should be barred from such positions, but rather that the bar must be set quite high for entry. And that if someone labelled with certain conditions don't desire to jump through the necessary hoops to prove their fitness, then that is their choice.
We live in a litigation driven society, and employers should not be blamed for being wary of such situations.


A few quotes:

Should we in all honesty WAIT for a "crime" against others to be committed?

If there has never been a 'crime' (an incident that proves inpredictability or tendencies towards other types of negative behaviors) then there should be no issue. If someone is diagnosed with a condition but shows no signs of that condition then.... something is wrong with the picture.


Should every one stay on guard around known people with these problems?

Perhaps everyone should stay on guard against everyone at all times? Known problems or no.
As has been stated, mental illness is not an automatic sentence of untrustworthiness. Many 'sane' people are far more dangerous than the mentally ill.

One should beware of falling into generalizations. One should always judge on a case by case basis. The risk of not doing so is to fall prey to their own mental illness. Undiagnosed though it may remain.


Help is out there. Absolutely, But... It's not individualized enough, just categorized and grouped.

Yes.
I have witnessed this myself, recently. Witnessed the way that 'professionals' get all glazed-eyes and aloof when dealing with the 'mentally ill'. They've fallen prey to the label and cease to regard the person as a person. They have too much data and too little knowledge. Too little understanding.
I've seen how the eyes shift from looking at the person they're supposedly speaking to. Instead, they look at the person they're with. As if they are a child and are incapable of understanding their situation.

Client/consumer lingo is unsavory to me in this regard. Perhaps its intent is something completely different, I don't know. But it seems to make things impersonal. Any true type of mental health care must be extremely personal in my opinion. Of course, I am completely untrained in this. But how can it be otherwise?

To medicate is not a cure. Yes. There are aspects that need medication. But environment plays a key role.
I've witnessed this myself.

There must be several layers of therapy.
And being too impersonal is not helpful.
They are people. Not objects.

Beware the fallacy of categories.
This goes for far more situations than the one under discussion.


But I was threatened with the things I loved being taken away if I did not comply. So I complied. It haunts my nightmares still though. That every thing I love will be taken away, or I will freak out and lose it all again. (paranoia)

I find it interesting. This "paranoia" in parentheses here. Also, you later throw in "insecurity" in much the same manner.
Very interesting to see the seeds of such behavior.
It is important to realize that many times, these behaviors that are focused upon as detrimental, are simply normal reactions to stimuli.
I think that when one has been labelled mentally ill, their behaviors are examined a little too critically sometimes. Care should be taken.

A problem occurs in communication here. Communicating why certain behaviors manifest. Explaining why they aren't unpredictable at all. Even if not entirely.

Or as you say:

When you have been through therapy, and what not, basic every day behavior is placed infront of you to notice. So you pick up on jesters more then most people would because your so self conscious about messing up again. (insecurity) I think people can feel that insecurity. Or at least sense it through behavior recognition, that they just act "accordingly"...... But on a more "social" level I do wonder.

I seem to recall the term 'neurosis' being applied to one who examines one's own inner workings to too much of a degree.
To get caught up in reflection rather than acting.
I doubt if this is the proper use of the term however.


When you have an emotional dilemma, you tend to change your mind.............. A LOT.
Doing JUST THAT makes people hesitant with you, unsure. One minute you are saying "yes" and the next, "no"... The perspectives change depending on the underlying emotion. Then the thought process kicks in, and the defensive mode. Then Empathy...
Basically, a tangle of emotions just to get one simple answer out.
These things going on in the head of some one who is emotionally, or mentally unstable.. thinking to much.
.... With those changing thoughts, how CAN any one "trust" you? You aren't even sure how you will respond about the situation tomorrow, or in a few hours.
So.. then, maybe people CAN NOT trust some one with emotional problems because they are indecisive?
Then the whole trust worthy thing has to do with the inability to stick with one "thing"... and there for you are not "trusted"...
So we aren't "trust worthy"

Everyone is like this.
It's just that maybe most people don't have quite the number of emotional dilemmas that others have.

It's interesting, however, to think that emotion plays a key role here.

Did you know that people with no emotions (damaged mammilary bodies for instance) suffer from indecisiveness as well? The classical vulcan ideal is that logic is tantamount to godliness. Erase the emotions and erase the uncertainty that emotions bring. But this is not true. Emotions are the base of our behavior and much of our rational behavior exists on top of this base behavior. As an afterthought. An explanation for something that already exists without words.

Without emtions, the tally lists of pros and cons grow and grow and grow. But the choice is never made.

I suppose this is different than making a choice then changing your mind and going back on it.

Without emtion, one never commits to a choice.
With too much emotion, one commits all too easily?

This does not always mean that the choice is wrong though.


2 a : dependence on something future or contingent : HOPE

This definition seems most meaningful to me at the moment.


When do you draw the line behind Moral obligation, and Mortality?

This is a purely personal choice. And must be made on a case by case basis. By asking for an answer here, you're making the same mistake that people make against you when they fail to trust you based upon your condition rather than upon your behavior.


the Misconception I see is that People take trust too Personally. as if it were a character flaw some how.
/............./
Again, Trust isn't always about your "person"... But your ability
/............/
And AGAIN.. TRUST isn't totally about your personality, it is also about your capabilities and what you have exhibited in the past.

I find this very interesting. This idea of trust being taken personally.
I intended to speak of this. But have since changed my mind. It is this which is rather abstract and would likely lead off-topic.
Perhaps I can be convinced to speak my thoughts later.

invert_nexus
05-14-06, 06:10 PM
Above and beyond all, I suppose, is that the truth of the matter is that trust must be earned. Trust is not a default state. It cannot be.

This puts us in a difficult situation in our world.
Man has evolved as a social organism. And yet the world for which he has evolved has, for the most part, vanished.

Man's social groups were, for eons, small. Groups where everyone knew everyone else. Where there was a hierarchy and where the abilities of one's peers were well-known.

Recently (the past couple thousand years), social groups have grown and grown and grown. This leaves man in a quandary. So many of our social mechanisms are... archaic and actually hinder us in this new society. Everyone experiences this in terms of angst. Unease. Nervousness. So many different manifestations of this inability to truely plug into the group in the way we used to.

To be cared for medically, we no longer are able to fully trust our doctor. It is not generally possible that we have followed his career with any great degree of accuracy. We also have very little insight into his personal life. We do not have access to all the criteria by which a proper judgement might be made.

And yet, we must be cared for by a doctor. And the diploma on the wall is supposed to be a symbolic substitute for this underpinning of the social support system.
And yet. It just doesn't do it, does it?
Not completely.


We live in a society where we are expected to put our trust in strangers from time to time. On the roads. In the hospitals. In restaurants.
This leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

It is for this reason that the requirements for trust must be so stringent.
We must placate the sense that our trust can never truly be satisfied in this world of billions. We must fool ourselves that we are doing everything we can to safeguard ourselves and our loved ones in a world which is mostly invisible to us.


I spoke to you once about being trapped on an island, Platonica. Do you remember?

I find the paradox of freedoms involved in such a predicament to be quite.... stimulating.
Almost nauseating.


But. Trust must be earned.
As must respect.

There is no free ride.
Even though our modern world expects us to bequeath such things with hardly a care.
Christian morality would have us love our enemies. But it's a lie.
Trust must be earned.
To dole out trust as though everyone were due would be to diminish its value. Would be to spit upon it. Drag it through the sewers. And for what? What's the point?

PHPlatonica
05-15-06, 04:31 PM
Your words are as perfect as I think you are.

I love you for that, and more I am sure of it.

My fear about trust is that The day I can let my emotions NOT rule me, that day I can make you happy, and every one happy.

There was a women with Croans in the hospital. I never felt so Much sadness and helplessness with her. I wanted to save her. Why I can I not want to save myself though?

I want the dilemmas gone. I want a trailer trash Kingdom by the sea.
I can't get any of that if My mind wont calm down. And it is no one responsibility but my own. I know this. Other wise I will hurt what I have loved. I refuse to do that again.

you have many good Points Nexus. you are a wonderful person. I knew that when you helped me write, and change the capitalizing.
I am terrified today. I Do not know what will happen, but I have a good idea as to what is to come for me.
I will be back.. and stable. I do believe in the profession, though I hate every last one of them.
There is an Answered... I may not like what it is, or what it will do to me. But should the demons not be faced, and soon, then I am not the only one who will be brought into my Limbo. I know this from experience. Though every one is different, I know things of myself that will never change. They haven't for 32 years. And when Death call's to me in all his seductive glory, I want to fallow him.... and be there.
This wont do any good for any one I love. So I will fix this one way or another.
a Best friend of mine was afraid that I may just up and leave again. And I did. Only to get Help... help in the only way I know how with out hurting any one any more. I hope this friend understands this. Nothing would break my heart more then to know it was for nothing.
I will not suck any one else down in my hell, Not now, not ever. Should the coffin or the Body donor call to me, then I know I still have one thing left to give.

invert_nexus
05-15-06, 08:15 PM
Far from perfect, my dear. Too far. But I progress. As do we all. Although some lose sight of this progression from time to time. interesting, that, seeing as how they also focus on how things change...

The more things change... the more they stay the same?

Heh.

Anyway.

Platonica.
Tara.
I love you for more than I am able to express as well.
You are a good person. One of the best I've met. Even though you are often confused. And unsure. And scared. There is a power in you. You just have forgotten how to use it. Or perhaps never knew.
You will, someday.
You will learn yourself. You will find that trust is earnable.
You will someday learn to trust yourself.

I believe in you, Tara. With all my heart. All my soul.

I know you're scared. I know that going where you're going, while the only path to help available, is also fraught with peril. I've seen how it affects you. The negative energy feeds on itself and grows.
What they must think of you when the negative energy and fear overwhelms. Aggravating and magnifying every problem.
I wish.
I wish I could go with you, Tara. I would. If I could. I would stay by your side, just as I stood by your side in the ER.

The woman with Croan's. She was in such pain. And you were the only one who cared. The only one.
I thought at first that you were encroaching on her space. I feared that she would get angry. Or nervous. Or upset.
But she didn't.
She loved you that day.
Loved that light in you.
She trusted you.

True. She didn't know about your condition. But, at the same time, I doubt that, to her, it would have made much of a difference.

There is trust in this world.

You have to find trust in yourself.
A true form of trust.

Love yourself as others do.

The cycle is vicious. You expect to not be trusted and this causes certain behavioral signs that increase the tendency of those who know your condition not trust you. And they amp off each other.
I've seen it.

Knowing is not curing though, is it?

If only.



As to drawing people into Limbo with you.
I deny this.

I've been thinking.
You fear Hyde. And, I can understand this. But, at the same time, for those who truly care, they can withstand Hyde in remembrance of Jeckyl. In trust and faith that Jeckyl will return. That Jeckyl always returns. Eventually.

One must always love with a remembrance of the best of times.
Or so it seems to me.

I love you, Tara.
And fuck anyone who scoffs. Or raises an eyebrow. Or whatever.
Stay strong and remember those who await you.

I trust you.
Implicitly.

-Michael

PHPlatonica
06-08-06, 11:56 AM
These have been the Longest months of my Life.

WOOPS, capitals!

Honestly though.. I am terrified of so much. Things I should not have done. the things I have done.

The things I think I have done, but am too medicated to remember?

My Heart beats the same. So says the Vittles. I left part of my self back in the hospital.

How I wish you would have been there that night, when I fell apart... and into the morning when no one could find you...
On the other hand, the Hyde was so Vicious perhaps it was for the best you were not available.

As hard as I tried to not pull you into my Limbo, I did any way.
I suppose that perhaps I showed you a world that you did not know existed.
I know you showed me one I did not know existed.
I wouldn't change that for anything.
You made me so Happy. You made me laugh, and Cry.... Showed me things that I honestly thought impossible... but you were there.
I told you once I wanted to teach you something that You did not know about.
You know many things.
I think, though, I must have succeeded.
How ever, never once did I mean to pull you into the hell I see.

I am still afraid of not being trusted. I fear my own actions as well. But "I don't regret the choices that I made, I know you feel the same".......

A road of oddness For sure.
I miss you terribly!
I know I must not have showed it very well. But I do.

All that we accomplished together in such a short time, is endless, and beyond all compare.
How I wish I could explain this with those I know, and have them understand.
But they have something you do not.
a Precognition if you may.

Perhaps, this is why I wanted to run away.
Start over.

I was "found" though, wasn't I. things were taken from me. A new order set...
It all hurt so much to the point that it seemed so useless to go on.
And I failed so miserably. And was So obvious that there was no longer anything I could hide, But rather Hyde.
So more was taken. Taken from the very core of my being and existence that I am more afraid of the hanging scab on this wound and the fact that it may fall.
In other words, I am afraid of losing what I tried to run from.

This is all so very hard.
I am completely reminded of how I failed, and all the things I have failed at.
Not just from loved ones, but from all the "professionals" out there who are "Helping"..
It is feeling hopeless at times.
it does remind me of why I was so attracted to Philosophy though. It makes my bond stronger. I am just too Impatient. A Virtue I hope to pick up on some day is to learn patience... That is almost laughable, but true.

"What have I become? My Sweetest Friend......... ??"

-Tara(h)

Theoryofrelativity
06-08-06, 12:49 PM
Tara

Please google 'EPA' and bipolar disorder and depression and schitzophrenia, you will find this very simple omega 3 oil massively helpful with treatment for these conditions.

Theoryofrelativity
06-08-06, 12:51 PM
http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/meds/Omega-3.htm

invert_nexus
06-09-06, 08:17 PM
"What have I become? My Sweetest Friend......... ??"

"Everyone I know... Goes away... In the end..."

Please, Tara. Don't speak like this. You're reminding me of someone who used to speak of the Eternal Recurrence. She never understood Nietzsche's intent when he wrote of it. Or perhaps she merely took his words and applied them differently than he intended. I really can't say.

But. It doesn't have to be that way.

The song. Hurt.
I just read the lyrics and the portion that sings to me is this:

Beneath the stains of time,
The feelings disappear.
You are someone else.
I am still right here.

Changes.
We all go through changes.
Don't we?

Tara.
I still trust in you.
I still believe in you.
I will always believe in you.
Even when you've lost all belief and confidence in yourself.
I'll believe.
I've seen you. And I can never forget what you've taught me.

I am someone else now. You've changed me.
For the better.


I told you once I wanted to teach you something that You did not know about.
You know many things.
I think, though, I must have succeeded.

You did, love.
You taught me so much.
I still remember the day I told you that you had things to teach me. This was long before we met in person. Do you remember? You scoffed at the notion. So insecure in your own power. I knew then that you would teach me. I just didn't know what.

Thank you, Tara.
Thank you for everything.
From the bottom of my heart and soul.
I owe you so much. Nothing I could ever do could repay what you've given me.
I will spend the rest of my life paying the debt I've incurred towards you.
And consider myself lucky.


How ever, never once did I mean to pull you into the hell I see.

You did not pull me in. I dove in willingly.
And I'd do it all again.

Remember always, I choose my path. I own my life.
My road is my own.
Always.


I am still afraid of not being trusted. I fear my own actions as well. But "I don't regret the choices that I made, I know you feel the same".......

Do you really mean that last? I hope you do. I regret nothing either.

I wish you could trust yourself. Someday, perhaps, you can bring yourself to trust yourself. Trust yourself as I trust you.

I suppose this comes back onto topic (danger... danger... back to topic alert!)
You need to be realistic about things. You are always too hard on yourself. Always so hard on yourself for all your 'failures'.
You've messed up this and that. You've hurt this person and that person. But you've also succeeded. And you've also brought light into the world.
We all have our successes and our failures, Tara. And I think that when the end tally comes up, your life will be viewed as a worthy one. You are a good and caring person, Tara. I hold you in the highest esteem. If only you could believe in yourself.


How I wish you would have been there that night, when I fell apart... and into the morning when no one could find you...
On the other hand, the Hyde was so Vicious perhaps it was for the best you were not available.

How I wish that it had never had to come to that. The fault is not yours in that night, Tara. No one can say that it was. Did Hyde come out to play? Blood on the walls? Well. Who's fault is that?
I hate the blame game as it's so unproductive. But, when it comes to your situation, with you constantly blaming yourself for every little thing, you must realize that you were not at fault. You'd cried out and cried out and cried out for help, for aid, for succor. And what happened? What happened during that week when you were whisked away with lies and promises? What aid was offered you? What was done about your delicate situation?

I know I'm contradicting myself now. Talking you into not 'owning' the responsibility for that night. But, you were lost. You were practically primed and programmed to act that way.

Saving you from yourself? How was that happening?
Answer me that.
They knew. They knew and they did nothing.

Bah!!

(Now I'm getting angry... Better change back to melancholy before I say something I regret.)


My Heart beats the same. So says the Vittles. I left part of my self back in the hospital.

Yes. I believe your heart beats the same as well. You're just having a hard time hearing that beat now.
Listen, Tara. Can you hear it?


I miss you terribly!
I know I must not have showed it very well. But I do.

I know you do. And I miss you. So much.
If only... If only you could trust your feelings. If only you were allowed to.

You know. It's funny. You're allowed to trust some of your feelings, but not others...
It's not fair. (Now I'm sounding like Metakron... Funny how some situations force you into this sort of helplessness which he rvels in. I suppose that explains a lot.)


I was "found" though, wasn't I.

You know. I almost regret that...
But. I can't. It wasn't right.


In other words, I am afraid of losing what I tried to run from.

Are you sure? Were you running from what you're now afraid of losing? Or are you blurring concepts?


It is feeling hopeless at times.

Stay strong, Tara.
However it works out, I know that you will be a wonderful person when you've made it through. You'll be a stronger one. You will have succeeded and you will see and acknowledge your success. Perhaps acknowledgement of one success will allow you to see the rest which you glance over so often.

This is one of my favorite lines from Nietzsche. I find it applicable here. I wonder if you can see why:

"Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman--a rope over an abyss. A dangerous across, a dangerous on-the-way, a dagnerous looking back, a dangerous shuddering and stopping.

"What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end: what can be loved in man is that is an overture and a going under.
You are a bridge, Tara.
Remember that.
Ignore the concept of the overman as it is somewhat cliche and egotistical. But you are a bridge. We are all bridges.

Also reminds me of Apocalpyse Now:

"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream. That's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razorÖ"

A Virtue I hope to pick up on some day is to learn patience...

Patience.
I hate patience.
I want it all now, too.




Tara. Stand strong. Own yourself, but remove yourself from the yoke of shame that threatens to overwhelm you. You've made mistakes. But you're not alone in this. And your mistakes were not the worst made in this whole affair.
You will succeed in your trials. I know you will.
But you must escape the shame that weighs you down. It will topple you if you let it.

Stand free. And stand true.

The world will be yours.
If you want it.

-Michael

I trust you.
Whatever path you choose.

Tnerb
06-10-06, 01:23 AM
I really can't say.
so close.
long ago when I read, I read for the reading, just to... bloody read.

lol
good luck tarah wishin u well
take care

leapfrog
06-12-06, 03:11 AM
Hmph...now a days all the f@#ked up people....I love these conversations, what did people ever do without you for hundreds maybe thousands of years?.... get over it