We are going to watch as a trillion dollars is being given away to those who screwed up and made really bad things go wrong with the money they already had and are now going to be given even more to do with what they want. It seems this give away isn't going to help anyone but only burden the taxpayer even more. The money is going to be printed which will make American currencies value decline even more in value! That will mean it will only make gas, food and everything else cost more to everyone. Taxpayers are not ever going to see any real help at all for borrowing will be very difficult and being qualified to buy a home will mean you'll need allot of income to do so. taxpayers aren't getting anything but screwed but the rich that own companies will be wallowing in fresh money to give away to their friends once again. Great system isn't it?

When will this ever stop and just let the companies fail to get rid of the bad and the good ones will continue on. Sure there's going to be down time but in a year or so everything should be back to normal once some of the riff raff is booted out of the system. IMHO

You need a system where the companies share in the risk of every speculation and the consumers share in every gain made.

Be honest here. Everyone is trying to blame the companies and Wall Street for all of this. This is not all their fault. It is their fault for loaning the money when they darn well knew these stupid people could not pay it if the interest rates rose. It's congresses fault for pressuring companies to loan the money to the people. The financial services committee even admitted last week to pressuring banks. They thought it was unfair for poor people to not have homes too. Well too bad. They shouldn't if they couldn't afford them. And then it's also the public's fault. They wanted these homes and signed the dotted lines. Were they so dumb to think that interest rates would never go up? Did they not understand was ARM, adjustable rate mortgage, meant? More of the blame is to go to the public. Yes, congress and Corporations/Wall Street enticed them, but they weren't forced to sign. Did these people not read the fine print of the contractual agreements? If they had not signed these mortgage agreements, we would not be in this situation today.

Well we spent a Trillion in Iraq war...very few complained....

Be honest here. Did these people not read the fine print of the contractual agreements? If they had not signed these mortgage agreements, we would not be in this situation today.

Your right, we wouldnt be in this particular mess, we would have had a recession 6 years ago as the housing market was the only thing that was propping up the economy.

All those loans against equity were paying for vacations, cars, etc. All those loans for new homes were feeding the suppliers and builders.

Take that away and you have no increase in the GDP.

Why? because of import/export imbalance. Something that wont change with this bailout.

I heard that the fortune 400 of america could pay for the 700 billion plan + the rest of the national debt and still have more money left then the average american family. Perhaps something to look into.

Instead of letting the whole country pay only the 500 richest persons of the US.

You have also spent a trillions plus on corporate give-aways (e.g. Medicare Reform of 2003). When you look at the big picture and history...this is really very small by comparison to the drug company give away of 2003 which will cost trillions of dollars. And funny, I didn't hear anyone one on the Republican side of the fence cry any tears over spending then.

This crisis has made me think differently about the politics of the average American. I would never have believed that a rescue mission to preserve the
status quo of the Capitalist system would meet with such objections.

Why? because of import/export imbalance. Something that wont change with this bailout.

That is what I have been saying for the longest...

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2032224&postcount=137

The bail-out is a drop in the bucket by comparison as to what the Republicans in congress did in 2003 and reafirmed in 2007 in the Senate with Medicare Prescription Drug Program that requires the government to pay whatever price the drug company wants to charge for drugs.

New Taxpayer Costs

The true significance of the latest CMS estimate is that this number is the taxpayers’ first glimpse of the drug entitlement’s enormous cost, which will soon grow dramatically as the baby-boom genera*tion retires. These drug costs will aggravate the already enormous unfunded liabilities of the entire Medicare program. For example:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/bg1849.cfm


"Taxpayers will face an estimated $29.7 tril*lion in unfunded Medicare liabilities. Accord*ing to the latest Medicare Trustees Report, the estimated total of unfunded Medicare benefits increased by $2 trillion in just one year.
Taxpayers will pay trillions of dollars to cover the Medicare drug costs. The latest Medicare trustees’ estimate of unfunded drug entitlement liabilities alone is $8.7 trillion over a 75-year period.
Taxpayers will pay an increasing share of their income taxes just to keep Medicare afloat. Under current law and assumptions, Dr. Thomas Saving, a former Medicare public trustee (his term expired after the 2005 Trust*ees Report was issued), estimates that the pro*gram will consume 25 percent of all federal income taxes by 2020 and 50 percent of all federal income taxes by 2040"

And you know what is going to happen here too right? The public is going to keep their heads up their asses and then when the medicare and social security issues come to a head, the same thing will happen there too. Everyone will be outraged like they are now, except that there will be no fix for it by that time. The general public rarely keeps up with what the governmental bodies do. They have the mentality of I have my own life. There is nothing I can do.

I know someone who thinks like you cosmic.. His name is Michael Moore.


Friends,

The richest 400 Americans -- that's right, just four hundred people -- own MORE than the bottom 150 million Americans combined. 400 rich Americans have got more stashed away than half the entire country! Their combined net worth is $1.6 trillion. During the eight years of the Bush Administration, their wealth has increased by nearly $700 billion -- the same amount that they are now demanding we give to them for the "bailout." Why don't they just spend the money they made under Bush to bail themselves out? They'd still have nearly a trillion dollars left over to spread amongst themselves!

Of course, they are not going to do that -- at least not voluntarily. George W. Bush was handed a $127 billion surplus when Bill Clinton left office. Because that money was OUR money and not his, he did what the rich prefer to do -- spend it and never look back. Now we have a $9.5 trillion debt. Why on earth would we even think of giving these robber barons any more of our money?

I would like to propose my own bailout plan. My suggestions, listed below, are predicated on the singular and simple belief that the rich must pull themselves up by their own platinum bootstraps. Sorry, fellows, but you drilled it into our heads one too many times: There... is... no... free... lunch. And thank you for encouraging us to hate people on welfare! So, there will be no handouts from us to you. The Senate, tonight, is going to try to rush their version of a "bailout" bill to a vote. They must be stopped. We did it on Monday with the House, and we can do it again today with the Senate.

It is clear, though, that we cannot simply keep protesting without proposing exactly what it is we think Congress should do. So, after consulting with a number of people smarter than Phil Gramm, here is my proposal, now known as "Mike's Rescue Plan." It has 10 simple, straightforward points. They are:

1. APPOINT A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO CRIMINALLY INDICT ANYONE ON WALL STREET WHO KNOWINGLY CONTRIBUTED TO THIS COLLAPSE. Before any new money is expended, Congress must commit, by resolution, to criminally prosecute anyone who had anything to do with the attempted sacking of our economy. This means that anyone who committed insider trading, securities fraud or any action that helped bring about this collapse must go to jail. This Congress must call for a Special Prosecutor who will vigorously go after everyone who created the mess, and anyone else who attempts to scam the public in the future.

2. THE RICH MUST PAY FOR THEIR OWN BAILOUT. They may have to live in 5 houses instead of 7. They may have to drive 9 cars instead of 13. The chef for their mini-terriers may have to be reassigned. But there is no way in hell, after forcing family incomes to go down more than $2,000 dollars during the Bush years, that working people and the middle class are going to fork over one dime to underwrite the next yacht purchase.

If they truly need the $700 billion they say they need, well, here is an easy way they can raise it:

a) Every couple who makes over a million dollars a year and every single taxpayer who makes over $500,000 a year will pay a 10% surcharge tax for five years. (It's the Senator Sanders plan. He's like Colonel Sanders, only he's out to fry the right chickens.) That means the rich will still be paying less income tax than when Carter was president. This will raise a total of $300 billion.

b) Like nearly every other democracy, charge a 0.25% tax on every stock transaction. This will raise more than $200 billion in a year.

c) Because every stockholder is a patriotic American, stockholders will forgo receiving a dividend check for one quarter and instead this money will go the treasury to help pay for the bailout.

d) 25% of major U.S. corporations currently pay NO federal income tax. Federal corporate tax revenues currently amount to 1.7% of the GDP compared to 5% in the 1950s. If we raise the corporate income tax back to the level of the 1950s, that gives us an extra $500 billion.

All of this combined should be enough to end the calamity. The rich will get to keep their mansions and their servants, and our United States government ("COUNTRY FIRST!") will have a little leftover to repair some roads, bridges and schools.

3. BAIL OUT THE PEOPLE LOSING THEIR HOMES, NOT THE PEOPLE WHO WILL BUILD AN EIGHTH HOME. There are 1.3 million homes in foreclosure right now. That is what is at the heart of this problem. So instead of giving the money to the banks as a gift, pay down each of these mortgages by $100,000. Force the banks to renegotiate the mortgage so the homeowner can pay on its current value. To insure that this help does no go to speculators and those who have tried to make money by flipping houses, this bailout is only for people's primary residence. And in return for the $100K paydown on the existing mortgage, the government gets to share in the holding of the mortgage so that it can get some of its money back. Thus, the total initial cost of fixing the mortgage crisis at its roots (instead of with the greedy lenders) is $150 billion, not $700 billion.

And let's set the record straight. People who have defaulted on their mortgages are not "bad risks." They are our fellow Americans, and all they wanted was what we all want and most of us still get: a home to call their own. But during the Bush years, millions of them lost the decent paying jobs they had. Six million fell into poverty. Seven million lost their health insurance. And every one of them saw their real wages go down by $2,000. Those who dare to look down on these Americans who got hit with one bad break after another should be ashamed. We are a better, stronger, safer and happier society when all of our citizens can afford to live in a home that they own.

4. IF YOUR BANK OR COMPANY GETS ANY OF OUR MONEY IN A "BAILOUT," THEN WE OWN YOU. Sorry, that's how it's done. If the bank gives me money so I can buy a house, the bank "owns" that house until I pay it all back -- with interest. Same deal for Wall Street. Whatever money you need to stay afloat, if our government considers you a safe risk -- and necessary for the good of the country -- then you can get a loan, but we will own you. If you default, we will sell you. This is how the Swedish government did it and it worked.

5. ALL REGULATIONS MUST BE RESTORED. THE REAGAN REVOLUTION IS DEAD. This catastrophe happened because we let the fox have the keys to the henhouse. In 1999, Phil Gramm authored a bill to remove all the regulations that governed Wall Street and our banking system. The bill passed and Clinton signed it. Here's what Sen. Phil Gramm, McCain's chief economic advisor, said at the bill signing:

"In the 1930s ... it was believed that government was the answer. It was believed that stability and growth came from government overriding the functioning of free markets.

"We are here today to repeal [that] because we have learned that government is not the answer. We have learned that freedom and competition are the answers. We have learned that we promote economic growth and we promote stability by having competition and freedom.

"I am proud to be here because this is an important bill; it is a deregulatory bill. I believe that that is the wave of the future, and I am awfully proud to have been a part of making it a reality."

This bill must be repealed. Bill Clinton can help by leading the effort for the repeal of the Gramm bill and the reinstating of even tougher regulations regarding our financial institutions. And when they're done with that, they can restore the regulations for the airlines, the inspection of our food, the oil industry, OSHA, and every other entity that affects our daily lives. All oversight provisions for any "bailout" must have enforcement monies attached to them and criminal penalties for all offenders.

6. IF IT'S TOO BIG TO FAIL, THEN THAT MEANS IT'S TOO BIG TO EXIST. Allowing the creation of these mega-mergers and not enforcing the monopoly and anti-trust laws has allowed a number of financial institutions and corporations to become so large, the very thought of their collapse means an even bigger collapse across the entire economy. No one or two companies should have this kind of power. The so-called "economic Pearl Harbor" can't happen when you have hundreds -- thousands -- of institutions where people have their money. When you have a dozen auto companies, if one goes belly-up, we don't face a national disaster. If you have three separately-owned daily newspapers in your town, then one media company can't call all the shots (I know... What am I thinking?! Who reads a paper anymore? Sure glad all those mergers and buyouts left us with a strong and free press!). Laws must be enacted to prevent companies from being so large and dominant that with one slingshot to the eye, the giant falls and dies. And no institution should be allowed to set up money schemes that no one can understand. If you can't explain it in two sentences, you shouldn't be taking anyone's money.

7. NO EXECUTIVE SHOULD BE PAID MORE THAN 40 TIMES THEIR AVERAGE EMPLOYEE, AND NO EXECUTIVE SHOULD RECEIVE ANY KIND OF "PARACHUTE" OTHER THAN THE VERY GENEROUS SALARY HE OR SHE MADE WHILE WORKING FOR THE COMPANY. In 1980, the average American CEO made 45 times what their employees made. By 2003, they were making 254 times what their workers made. After 8 years of Bush, they now make over 400 times what their average employee makes. How this can happen at publicly held companies is beyond reason. In Britain, the average CEO makes 28 times what their average employee makes. In Japan, it's only 17 times! The last I heard, the CEO of Toyota was living the high life in Tokyo. How does he do it on so little money? Seriously, this is an outrage. We have created the mess we're in by letting the people at the top become bloated beyond belief with millions of dollars. This has to stop. Not only should no executive who receives help out of this mess profit from it, but any executive who was in charge of running his company into the ground should be fired before the company receives any help.

8. STRENGTHEN THE FDIC AND MAKE IT A MODEL FOR PROTECTING NOT ONLY PEOPLE'S SAVINGS, BUT ALSO THEIR PENSIONS AND THEIR HOMES. Obama was correct yesterday to propose expanding FDIC protection of people's savings in their banks to $250,000. But this same sort of government insurance must be given to our nation's pension funds. People should never have to worry about whether or not the money they've put away for their old age will be there. This will mean strict government oversight of companies who manage their employees' funds -- or perhaps it means that the companies will have to turn over those funds and their management to the government. People's private retirement funds must also be protected, but perhaps it's time to consider not having one's retirement invested in the casino known as the stock market. Our government should have a solemn duty to guarantee that no one who grows old in this country has to worry about ending up destitute.

9. EVERYBODY NEEDS TO TAKE A DEEP BREATH, CALM DOWN, AND NOT LET FEAR RULE THE DAY. Turn off the TV! We are not in the Second Great Depression. The sky is not falling. Pundits and politicians are lying to us so fast and furious it's hard not to be affected by all the fear mongering. Even I, yesterday, wrote to you and repeated what I heard on the news, that the Dow had the biggest one day drop in its history. Well, that's true in terms of points, but its 7% drop came nowhere close to Black Monday in 1987 when the stock market in one day lost 23% of its value. In the '80s, 3,000 banks closed, but America didn't go out of business. These institutions have always had their ups and downs and eventually it works out. It has to, because the rich do not like their wealth being disrupted! They have a vested interest in calming things down and getting back into the Jacuzzi.

As crazy as things are right now, tens of thousands of people got a car loan this week. Thousands went to the bank and got a mortgage to buy a home. Students just back to college found banks more than happy to put them into hock for the next 15 years with a student loan. Life has gone on. Not a single person has lost any of their money if it's in a bank or a treasury note or a CD. And the most amazing thing is that the American public hasn't bought the scare campaign. The citizens didn't blink, and instead told Congress to take that bailout and shove it. THAT was impressive. Why didn't the population succumb to the fright-filled warnings from their president and his cronies? Well, you can only say 'Saddam has da bomb' so many times before the people realize you're a lying sack of shite. After eight long years, the nation is worn out and simply can't take it any longer.

10. CREATE A NATIONAL BANK, A "PEOPLE'S BANK." If we really are itching to print up a trillion dollars, instead of giving it to a few rich people, why don't we give it to ourselves? Now that we own Freddie and Fannie, why not set up a people's bank? One that can provide low-interest loans for all sorts of people who want to own a home, start a small business, go to school, come up with the cure for cancer or create the next great invention. And now that we own AIG, the country's largest insurance company, let's take the next step and provide health insurance for everyone. Medicare for all. It will save us so much money in the long run. And we won't be 12th on the life expectancy list. We'll be able to have a longer life, enjoying our government-protected pension, and living to see the day when the corporate criminals who caused so much misery are let out of prison so that we can help reacclimate them to civilian life -- a life with one nice home and a gas-free car that was invented with help from the People's Bank.

Yours,
Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
MichaelMoore.com

P.S. Call your Senators now. Here's a backup link in case we crash that site again. They are going to attempt their own version of the Looting of America tonight. And let your reps know if you agree with my 10-point plan.

For example:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/bg1849.cfm

"Taxpayers will face an estimated $29.7 tril*lion in unfunded Medicare liabilities. Accord*ing to the latest Medicare Trustees Report, the estimated total of unfunded Medicare benefits increased by $2 trillion in just one year.
Taxpayers will pay trillions of dollars to cover the Medicare drug costs. The latest Medicare trustees’ estimate of unfunded drug entitlement liabilities alone is $8.7 trillion over a 75-year period.


While Off Topic! I have been advocating for at least 4 years the government go after the drug companies under RICO.

Additionally, I take anything from Heritage with a tablespoon (not a grain) of salt.

8.7 Trillion Over 75 years?? and you are trying to compare this to almost a trillion dollars Right Now?

It is simply a delusion to think that throwing money at wall street will change the economy in any significant way. Some are estimating (should this garbage bill get through the house) a decade to pay it off. And while people are using their handy windows calculator to figure out 4K or 2K per person as the bill, they are not figuring in the tax breaks for the wealthy (meaning they wont pay as much as me) and they are not figuring in the tax breaks for families (meaning they wont shoulder as much of this debt as me). If your 20 - 50 and you dont have kids, or you dont have a corp to shelter you, you will be paying much more of this bill than the others.

So now you have freed up money (the magic of this card trick). What is going to be done? Surely you dont think they are going to invest in MORE unaffordable housing do you? So please tell me where these investments/credit is going to go to? China? Who are they gonna be selling their stuff to? The average american isnt going to magically have no debt. Whos gonna buy new stuff? Indians? Theres only so many rich saudis who need more stuff.

Whats happened to the markets since the senate passed their verision of the gotta keep the rich happy bill: Mixed at best. 20 minutes the NYSE has been open and its fallen 200 points. Restoring confidence? Nope. Looks to me like the rats are leaving the ship as fast as they can.

Restoring confidence? Nope. Looks to me like the rats are leaving the ship as fast as they can.

And the new gang is coming aboard to do it all over again. This is the same mess that happened in the 1980's and there were supposed to be regulators watching the banks, mortgage companies and wall street but alas over the years ALL of Congress made those regulators powers very weak and encouraged everyone to make sub prime loans , which wasn't supposed to be done. That was the beginning of the end. Then more deregulation happened and more companies were giving away money to anyone that had two arms and legs. Now they want to start the process all over again and give away more taxpayers money to the new batch of weasels everywhere. When will this ever cease to happen?? :shrug:

That is what I have been saying for the longest...

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2032224&postcount=137

Yes and throw this in there too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance

People paying debt have no purchasing power.

It is simply a delusion to think that throwing money at wall street will change the economy in any significant way.

So do you think Wall Street has any effect on your life personally?

We are going to need all this newly printed money to borrow in order to pay for our gas, food and houses. That's because the dollar is going to devalued allot more than it already is. Is everyone ready for no more middle class? Ready for South American form of system where only 10 percent of the people own everything and control everything because they have ALL of the money for themselves?

One of the big problems here is that the middle class tried to keep up with the upper class for too many years. The middle class bought stuff that was out of their price range with credit not giving any thought that it would have to be paid back. That is why I do not feel sorry for the middle class. They have brought a lot of this on themselves by trying to keep up with everyone else.

Actually the middle class pay has been lowered because of inflation, devaluation and just less income to around. Whenever there's a 200 percent mark up in gas prices over a 3 year period how can any middle class family keep up with that? Everything is costing allot more than any middle class family can afford, and that's just for stuff they need to get along , not on extras.

One of the big problems here is that the middle class tried to keep up with the upper class for too many years. The middle class bought stuff that was out of their price range with credit not giving any thought that it would have to be paid back. That is why I do not feel sorry for the middle class. They have brought a lot of this on themselves by trying to keep up with everyone else.
So what is your point?

Wallstreet tried to keep up with saudi princes for too many years. Wallstreet bought stuff that was out of their price range with credit not giving any thought that it would be paid back. That is why I do not feel sorry for Wallstreet. They have brought a lot of this on themselves by trying to keep up with Saudi princes.

So do you think Wall Street has any effect on your life personally?

Right now as they whine and snivel for my tax dollars and seem to be dragging every elected official with them despite overwhelming objections to this *choke* plan, I think they have TOO MUCH effect on my life personally. And I never voted for a single one of these S.O.B.s

Right now is the window of opportunity to relieve the burden wall street has put on the average joe with the promises of glory should you slide another fistful of dollars across the table so they can put it in the ante.

Your not even the guy at the table looking at the hand you've been dealt, a hand you were dealt 7 years ago and no body knows how many shuffles of the deck later. Your not even the guy standing alongside the table watching the action unfold. Your the guy answering a ringing telephone at 2am on a wednesday nite halfways across the country as cousin Vinnie, in a desperate situation in Vegas calls with the same old "have I gotta deal for you if you Wire me some money now... heres the address..."

Sheesh.... Its a damned if ya do, damned if ya dont situation. I vote DONT. I dont answer my phone at 2am and I dont accept collect calls. But then, my credit cards are fully paid off and I own my home, two cars, my computers (plural) my clothes, the gas in both of my FULL tanks, my widescreen, all the food in my house... blah blah blah.

How'd that happen? What crisis of money?

Actually the middle class pay has been lowered because of inflation, devaluation and just less income to around. Whenever there's a 200 percent mark up in gas prices over a 3 year period how can any middle class family keep up with that? Everything is costing allot more than any middle class family can afford, and that's just for stuff they need to get along , not on extras.

By living within their means. By not buying 2000+ square foot houses. By now buying everything on credit and waiting until they have the cash in hand to purchase something. That is how they can get by. That is what we did and we are living just fine.

Even Warren Buffet says, it will get worse for 3 to 4 years. There is a simple solution, but no one will go for it....so we will suffer and join the rank of Argentina. Once an empire goes down...it is never coming back up....The British and Roman empire are testaments....

Even Warren Buffet says, it will get worse for 3 to 4 years. There is a simple solution, but no one will go for it.

I agree with Buffet on it getting worse.

I dont know about a simple solution though.

We are going to watch as a trillion dollars is being given away to those who screwed up and made really bad things go wrong with the money they already had and are now going to be given even more to do with what they want. It seems this give away isn't going to help anyone but only burden the taxpayer even more. The money is going to be printed which will make American currencies value decline even more in value! That will mean it will only make gas, food and everything else cost more to everyone. Taxpayers are not ever going to see any real help at all for borrowing will be very difficult and being qualified to buy a home will mean you'll need allot of income to do so. taxpayers aren't getting anything but screwed but the rich that own companies will be wallowing in fresh money to give away to their friends once again. Great system isn't it?

When will this ever stop and just let the companies fail to get rid of the bad and the good ones will continue on. Sure there's going to be down time but in a year or so everything should be back to normal once some of the riff raff is booted out of the system. IMHO
American currency is down? That's odd, because I've seen it going up against both Canadian and Brasilian currencies, despite the big crash a couple of days ago.

Go figure... it must be all pure speculation...

American currency is down? That's odd, because I've seen it going up against both Canadian and Brasilian currencies, despite the big crash a couple of days ago.

Go figure... it must be all pure speculation...

Then why is the cost of everything increasing at an inflationary rate of well over 10 percent?

supply and demand is fueling the increased cost of goods and services

200 percent increase in gas prices over 3 years were not caused by your evaluation.

Of course there is price gouging in that scenario.

200 percent increase in gas prices over 3 years were not caused by your evaluation.
Of course not! It was caused by greedy oil barons who used a war as an excuse to increase their profits. :rolleyes: