to set the record straight on the BoA & the BoM & otherwise verbally disembowel all infidels

http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/lostbook.htm
KERRY SHIRTS ON THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM VIDEO FROM I.R.R.
FAIR CONFERENCE, SALT LAKE CITY, 04/08/02.
[Transcribed by Marc A. Schindler 17/09/02. Transcriber’s note: ellipses ("…") do not represent gaps in data, but pauses in conversation. Verbal speech does not follow the same rules as written text, so pauses in speech which might be represented by periods or commas in written text have been represented by ellipses]
I’m Kerry Shirts. I’m a researcher with FAIR, the Foundation for Apologetics Information and Research. We have been apprised of a situation, of a new video out on the Book of Abraham, by Luke Wilson, and the Institute of Religious Research – the IRR. They have presented a new video on the Book of Abraham, trying to refute it and bury it once and for all, showing why it’s phony, and why the papyri, the Joseph Smith papyri, prove that Joseph Smith is a false prophet. And that’s their full intention; it’s an agenda-driven video, I believe.
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/ponderin.htm
Debating the Book of Abraham with a Professional Egyptologist
Dr. Castillos: http://www.geocities.com/martsego/comments.txt
I've read the apologetic remarks by several Mormon writers trying to justify Joseph Smith's version of the figures in the three facsimiles attached to the Book of Abraham which I tried to consider with an open mind, but after some thought I found them to be quite unconvincing. Kerry Shirts' long and elaborate essay on the canopic jars in Facsimile 1 does not at all deal with the main flaw in his Prophet's identification of these vases as idols when in fact they were meant to contain and preserve some of the internal organs of the deceased, for some obscure reason he prefers to write about their names as given in the Pearl of Great Price and that those names were not so strange after all, but if Joseph Smith was indeed a Prophet, he should have known the correct meaning and names of what they represented and there should be no confusion at all.
Kerry A. Shirts:
The main complaint appears to be the canopic jars cannot be what Joseph said they were because they must be something else, as if there is an exclusion principle at work. And because they are something that Joseph did not mention that proves Joseph is a false prophet.
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/withhis.htm
Reviewing Charles Larson "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus", Institute for Religious Research, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1992.
Research by Kerry A. Shirts
There are so many things incorrect in this book that it is hard to wonder where to start. I'll examine it in several posts and not necessarily from page 1 to page 240 (counting the Index). Instead I'll just note problems that Larson has and we can examine and discuss them and bring them out as we go.
It has always fascinated me that the papyri brings out the worse in scholarship with anti-Mormons. Apparently they feel that it is safe to say just whatever pleases their fancy because there are so few who can check into it, and again there are so few who care less. Those of us who take it rather seriously however, do check into it and always find misconceptions with the anti view. Larson is certainly no exception.
http://www.fairlds.org/
The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of LDS (Mormon) doctrine, belief and practice.

Some further background on Kerry and who he is and what he represents.

Kerry Shirts is a researcher with FAIR.

FAIR -

The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) was formed in late 1997 by a group of LDS defenders of the faith who frequented the America Online Mormonism message boards. In defending the Church against detractors there, this small group realized that they had no way of sharing their information with each other, much less the rest of the Church. As a result of this, FAIR was born. Incorporated as a non-profit organization in November 1997, the fledgling organization put up its first Web site in March 1998.

FAIR is staffed completely by students of the scriptures, ancient languages, early Christian history, early LDS history, and LDS doctrine and apologetics. Most all of the staff here at FAIR have been involved in online services and Internet-based LDS apologetics for many years. Many of our members are authors of currently-available apologetic publications.

WildBlueYonder. I have an IQ in excess of 150. I have an education from one of the premier Universities on the planet. I have more than five decades of life experience. But I have bugger all idea from your convoluted and poorly structured post what the hell you are blabbering about, and which side of the issue, whatever it is, you are positioned on.
If your intent was to preach only to the choir, you may well have suceeded. If you intended to educate and inform you have failed abyssmally.

Hey! Congrats you guys! I see you can find things on the internet, and have discovered a little about me. Now then, can you also show the same acumen with the scriptures? So far, you haven't done so.

Oh and for the honest and open record, I am simply not, by any means, a big time LDS scholar, whatever that is. I am an enthusiastic and well read hobbyist who enjoys learning. That's about it..........

Hi Kerry,

Welcome to sciforums.

I'd like to know why you have chosen to follow LDS rather than any other Christian variation. Would you share that with us please?

Cris

Certainly. I suspect largely because I was born LDS, and that's been my raising and culture, and besides, I really do believe in it. The ideology seems rather close to what I think the meaning of life is. On the other hand, I have also delved into much else that also seems to fit what I like, such as Kabbalah, Judaism, Gnosticism, etc., and I know there are some incompatibilities! GRIN! So, I just keep chuggin away and learning, and hopefully, ever expanding my knowledge and understanding............ Sometimes I am rather dogmatic in one area, and then in another, and the more I learn, the more I realize I just really don't know very doggone much........so, I keep learning! Or trying to anyway.

And I insist on representing that I do not, by any means represent FAIR at all. I am rather independently researching right now from their materials. Yes, I helped found it, and have participated in many of their symposiums, and have written a bit for them. But I am not and do not represent nor speak for FAIR. ALL information, conclusions, research, etc. I do, is simply my own for now.

Thanks,
Best,
kerry

And I insist on representing that I do not, by any means represent FAIR at all. I am rather independently researching right now from their materials. Yes, I helped found it, and have participated in many of their symposiums, and have written a bit for them. But I am not and do not represent nor speak for FAIR. ALL information, conclusions, research, etc. I do, is simply my own for now.

Thanks,
Best,
kerry2 words, “Plausible deniability”

Hey! Congrats you guys! I see you can find things on the internet, and have discovered a little about me. Now then, can you also show the same acumen with the scriptures? So far, you haven't done so.nice, open with an insult, then a challenge & another insult
Oh and for the honest and open record, I am simply not, by any means, a big time LDS scholar, whatever that is. I am an enthusiastic and well read hobbyist who enjoys learning. That's about it..........So, then you’re an amateur like us?

Some further background on Kerry and who he is and what he represents.

Kerry Shirts is a researcher with FAIR.

FAIR -

The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) was formed in late 1997 by a group of LDS defenders of the faith who frequented the America Online Mormonism message boards. In defending the Church against detractors there, this small group realized that they had no way of sharing their information with each other, much less the rest of the Church. As a result of this, FAIR was born. Incorporated as a non-profit organization in November 1997, the fledgling organization put up its first Web site in March 1998.

FAIR is staffed completely by students of the scriptures, ancient languages, early Christian history, early LDS history, and LDS doctrine and apologetics. Most all of the staff here at FAIR have been involved in online services and Internet-based LDS apologetics for many years. Many of our members are authors of currently-available apologetic publications.


well at least they call it what it should be called - apologetics. i guess when you cant come up with facts to support your god, you can at least come up with excuses and justifications for it. pretty sweet.

2 words, “Plausible deniability”

Actually its three words.
"It's the truth."

WBY:
So, then you’re an amateur like us?

But of course.......... an amateur though, determined to understand as well as I can, and read as much as I can in a myriad subjects relating to issues that fascinate me.........

well at least they call it what it should be called - apologetics. i guess when you cant come up with facts to support your god, you can at least come up with excuses and justifications for it. pretty sweet.
here's a small lesson in english, I guess greek loan words throw you off :D
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologetics
Apologetics is the field of study concerned with the systematic defense of a position. Someone who engages in apologetics is called an apologist or an "apologete". The term comes from the Greek word apologia ( απολογια ), meaning defense of a position against an attack. When John Henry Newman entitled his spiritual autobiography Apologia Pro Vita Sua in 1864, he was playing upon both connotations. Early uses of the term include Plato's Apology (the defense speech of Socrates from his trial) and some works of early Christian apologists, such as St. Justin Martyr's two Apologies addressed to the emperor Marcus Aurelius.

here's a small lesson in english, I guess greek loan words throw you off :D
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologetics


Apologetics is the field of study concerned with the systematic defense of a position. Someone who engages in apologetics is called an apologist or an "apologete". The term comes from the Greek word apologia ( απολογια ), meaning defense of a position against an attack

how is that not what i thought it was?
its someone defending a position against an attack or a perceived attack. the problem here is that the only way to defend something that has no factual basis or observable data to back it up is with excuses, justifications, imaginary scenarios, and creative speculation. i think ive got it but thanks for the "english lesson" or whatever the fuck it was you thought you were doing. i was making a pun sort of, too bad you missed it.

The title of the thread was enticing enough and now that I am here, I am disappointed. Probably my fault for setting my own expectations that a sholarly 'believer' was going show some evidence in a science forum.

Well, Mr. Shirts, perhaps you can explain how there seems to be no evidence of a Christian culture among native South Americans prior to the arrival of Europeans.

Also, why was Jesus a Jew and not a Mormon?

But of course.......... an amateur though, determined to understand as well as I can, and read as much as I can in a myriad subjects relating to issues that fascinate me.........

Do any of those subjects include the real world?

Certainly. I suspect largely because I was born LDS, and that's been my raising and culture, and besides, I really do believe in it. The ideology seems rather close to what I think the meaning of life is.

The above statement clearly shows the influence of the circumstances in which the personality of an individual is conditioned by society.

I almost hear the same explanation each time I ask: “Why you chose [Put any religion here] of all the available faiths in the entire world?”
Certainly. I suspect largely because I was born [Put any religion here], and that's been my raising and culture, and besides, I really do believe in it. The ideology seems rather close to what I think the meaning of life is.

Well, Mr. Shirts, perhaps you can explain how there seems to be no evidence of a Christian culture among native South Americans prior to the arrival of Europeans.

Also, why was Jesus a Jew and not a Mormon?

you wont get an answer to this. guaranteed.

The answer is rather obvious...............Jesus was born a Jew and not a Mormon.........

The title of the thread was enticing enough and now that I am here, I am disappointed. Probably my fault for setting my own expectations that a sholarly 'believer' was going show some evidence in a science forum.sorry, my fault, he was supposed to be some hotshot from the "unofficial" mormon site called "FAIR", that he had helped set up, had presented at the Sunstone Symposium (mormon) on the subject of the Book of Abraham (mormon), debated professional archeologists & he had landed on our little forum. How was I to know that he was just an amateur like me? I thought we had landed a big fish, got a small fry instead, my bad, lets throw him back :p

The answer is rather obvious...............Jesus was born a Jew and not a Mormon.........wrong answer, it’s not mormon enough

I thought that according to LDS belief, Jesus set up a mormon church, that that was what "normative" Christianity was until "The Great Apostasy" (you forgot to tell them that, what now, do I have to defend your side too, wake up those scholarly brain cells)

He probably didn’t mention it, because there’s not any proof of that either

i was making a pun sort of, too bad you missed it.that was a pun? I thought you were being either sarcastic or just unclear on the language, thanks for clearing that up

BTW, no need to cuss, use those language skills to make your points or puns better, not "sort of"

The answer is rather obvious...............Jesus was born a Jew and not a Mormon.........

That is, of course, not obvious, considering Jesus probably never existed. Can you in fact show that he did?

The answer is rather obvious...............Jesus was born a Jew and not a Mormon.........
Thank you. Actually, it was the first question I was more interested in. Why is there no evidence of a Christian culture in South America before the European explorers, conquerers and missionaries came?

sorry, my fault, he was supposed to be some hotshot from the "unofficial" mormon site called "FAIR", that he had helped set up, had presented at the Sunstone Symposium (mormon) on the subject of the Book of Abraham (mormon), debated professional archeologists & he had landed on our little forum. How was I to know that he was just an amateur like me? I thought we had landed a big fish, got a small fry instead, my bad, lets throw him back :p


Meh, no problem. I've had the opportunity to fry bigger fish than FAIR anyhow :).

Meh, no problem. I've had the opportunity to fry bigger fish than FAIR anyhow :-).yeah? who, what, where, when?

That is, of course, not obvious, considering Jesus probably never existed. Can you in fact show that he did?can you show He didn't?

yeah? who, what, where, when?

Some grey haired glasses fella at a 'spirit west coast' event within the past 7 years. He's a primo guy in protestant circles and for the life of me I can't remember his name tonight.

Anyhow I utterly stumped him with a simple question concerning why 'God' wont accept my invitation to join me for a cup of coffee at starbucks. Then I asked for evidence of 'God's existence and it went all downhill for him from there.

Shirt's two questions about mormanism

1. Do you beleive in the old testiments, new testements?
2. Does the morman prophet claim to be the messiah?

Some grey haired glasses fella at a 'spirit west coast' event within the past 7 years. He's a primo guy in protestant circles and for the life of me I can't remember his name tonight. You go to those? Isn’t it too sugary? Or is there a good enough mix of music?
Anyhow I utterly stumped him with a simple question concerning why 'God' wont accept my invitation to join me for a cup of coffee at starbucks.I can give you about 3 quick answers;
1) God is boycotting Starbucks , because its part of the DarkSide, intent on world domination, 1 block at a time
2) God doesn’t do special appearance at anyones’ beck & call, just because you want Him to
3) you haven’t gotten on your knees long enough to ask Him to
Then I asked for evidence of 'God's existence That’s easy, you exist, what more proof do you need? and it went all downhill for him from there.No sense of humor, I guess

Why is there no evidence of a Christian culture in South America before the European explorers, conquerers and missionaries came?or a mormon one in the early Roman period in Judea circa 100AD or any where here in the Americas for that matter?

the LDS church can not be a "Restored" church, if it has nothing in common with the early churches that it was supposed to be 'restored' to, why has there never been any evidence that early Christians were mormon, even among the early heretics? to support LDS slants on the Bible or archeology, why does the LDS church only quote the least known professors, that have the most far-out theories, supported only by arcane minutia?

let's face it; history isn't an LDS strong suit, nor archeology, or many sciences for that matter, if they are dragged in to support or defend the BoM or BoA

You go to those? Isn’t it too sugary? Or is there a good enough mix of music?

The music is pretty gay all around.


I can give you about 3 quick answers;
1) God is boycotting Starbucks , because its part of the DarkSide, intent on world domination, 1 block at a time
2) God doesn’t do special appearance at anyones’ beck & call, just because you want Him to
3) you haven’t gotten on your knees long enough to ask Him to
That’s easy, you exist, what more proof do you need? No sense of humor, I guess

You're 3 up on old man joe :)

I've had the opportunity to fry bigger fish than FAIR anyhow :-).have you ever disrupted any event? I'd wish I had a chance to heckle Bush at one of his "by invite only" staged events.
last guy who did this got fired, so much for free speech

can you show He didn't?

Sorry for asking, I was under the impression that you were aware of the simple concept of NOT being able to prove a negative and that those MAKING the claims were the ones to show the evidence.

That’s easy, you exist, what more proof do you need?(gods existence)

Such a statement might be overheard on a kindergarten playground and seriously considered, but it doesn't really hold water once you've reached late childhood.

So, effectively, with those two statements, you've managed to eliminate all possibility of mature rational discussion.

Toodles.

have you ever disrupted any event? I'd wish I had a chance to heckle Bush at one of his "by invite only" staged events.
last guy who did this got fired, so much for free speech

Nope, I'm not quite that talented :)

Sorry for asking, I was under the impression that you were aware of the simple concept of NOT being able to prove a negative and that those MAKING the claims were the ones to show the evidence.

That’s easy, you exist, what more proof do you need?(gods existence)

Such a statement might be overheard on a kindergarten playground and seriously considered, but it doesn't really hold water once you've reached late childhood.

So, effectively, with those two statements, you've managed to eliminate all possibility of mature rational discussion.

Toodles.every conversation has diff rules, depending on the people having the dialogue, since I was not aware that you wanted to hold this discussion within the framework of the rules you specified, I will endeavor to abide by them, thanks

While your point about “proving a negative” is new to me in common everyday discourse (& I, as a Christian would never frame the debate about whether God exists in that way, I would probably say, “proving the Unseen, by its effects on the world around us”),

by googling "proving a negative", I guess that it forms a part of the structure of “pro” & “con” religious debate (so, its not a given)
See below:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/negative.html

In this discussion, I will be dealing within the framework of 2 points;
1) that you are an atheist; so that you probably think within an empiricist (classified as "real" by the 5 senses) & scientific (measurable, knowable) worldview
2) that “unseen” forces, do not mean ‘non-existent’ forces

As you are well aware, many “unseen” forces, do in fact exist; like gravity, time, space, (though you may need advanced math to ‘prove’ them to scientists, simply falling down will prove 'gravity' to a laymen, as an example)
So, my contention will be (to paraphrase the Bible), ”God’s invisible qualities are in fact seen”.

My first 5 points will center on this;
1) that humanity has consciousness
2) that humanity has a conscience
3) that humanity has believed in God or gods since before recorded history
4) that humans have a “God Module” area in the brain
5) that the Bible states that the world around us shows that there is a God
see below:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom001.html
Rom 1:19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

if you are interested in holding a discussion, we can go from here, otherwise I will just post my ideas (now that you’ve asked me to follow these rules), as I have time to work on them

Shirt's two questions about mormanism

1. Do you beleive in the old testiments, new testements?
2. Does the morman prophet claim to be the messiah?

1. Yes.
2. No.

which thread is this? you ppl got like 9 going

I was not aware that you wanted to hold this discussion within the framework of the rules you specified

I didn't really specify any rules that aren't already being taken as the norm.

While your point about “proving a negative” is new to me in common everyday discourse

That's surprising considering it comes up continually on these forums.

In this discussion, I will be dealing within the framework of 2 points;
1) that you are an atheist so that you probably think within an empiricist (classified as "real" by the 5 senses) & scientific (measurable, knowable) worldview

Ok, but you don't need the 'atheist' part.

2) that “unseen” forces, do not mean ‘non-existent’ forces

Regardless of whether forces are seen or unseen, their effects can be measured therefore they exist.

As you are well aware, many “unseen” forces, do in fact exist; like gravity, time, space,

Ok, but technically gravity is not considered a force - time and space are not forces at all.

So, my contention will be (to paraphrase the Bible), ”God’s invisible qualities are in fact seen”.

That's fine, but no such 'invisible qualities' have ever been shown to exist, let alone seen. But by all means, let it be your contention.

My first 5 points will center on this;
1) that humanity has consciousness
2) that humanity has a conscience
3) that humanity has believed in God or gods since before recorded history
4) that humans have a “God Module” area in the brain
5) that the Bible states that the world around us shows that there is a God

1&2) Individual or group consciousness or conscience? What do you mean exactly by those statements?

3)Humanity has believed in gods for centuries, most of those gods are now considered myths, even by theists. Hopefully, they'll take the next logical step and deduce that all gods are myths.

4) Good luck with that one.

5) The bible cannot show that, no one can. The world around us has shown us quite the opposite, and the more we understand, the less we find gods had anything to do with... anything.

if you are interested in holding a discussion, we can go from here, otherwise I will just post my ideas

Post your ideas and I'll be happy to refute them.

I'd like to know why you have chosen to follow LDS rather than any other Christian variation. Would you share that with us please?

i lke to share my reasons for following the true religion

as a man, i am sure we all delight in the notion of having more than one wife
lds allows me this

as a man i am sure we all delight in the notion of having young hot nubile virgins as brides
lds allows me this

as a man, i am sure we all delight in the notion of having complete dominion over the bitches
lds allows me this

as a man, i am sure we all delight in the notion of having incest as an option when the wives are out tilling the soil
lds allows me this

http://www.polygamyinfo.com/harpers_weekly_1-1875.jpg

heaven on earth

[church lady]

weeeeelll, we all know where SOMEONE'S mind is! I wonder who could be influencing this young man's thoughts...Could it be.......











SATAN????


[/church lady]

Oh and for the honest and open record, I am simply not, by any means, a big time LDS scholar, whatever that is. I am an enthusiastic and well read hobbyist who enjoys learning. That's about it..........
If you are defending Moronism, I-I mean, mormonism, then what the flying fuck are you doing at a science forum? Religion isn't science.

If you are defending Moronism, I-I mean, mormonism, then what the flying fuck are you doing at a science forum? Religion isn't science.

Hey, folks, Haps made a funny! He was going to say "Mormonism" but dropped the second "m" so it reads "Moronism"! What scathing wit! What originality! That is so hilarious, and you can be sure no one has ever made THAT particular pun before....

What the flying flip is he doing in a Relgion forum? Religion isn't science.

yea hap that was kind of ancient.

What are you doing on the internet? owned?

Ricky Houy:
1. Do you beleive in the old testiments, new testements?
2. Does the morman prophet claim to be the messiah?

Do I personally believe the Old and New Testaments? I accept them as scripture as far as they are translated and presented correctly. The scholarly world is *still* wrangling that over however.

The Mormon prophet the Messiah? Never heard that one.

Best,
Kerry

“ Originally Posted by Kerry Shirts
The answer is rather obvious...............Jesus was born a Jew and not a Mormon......... ”

WBY:
wrong answer, it’s not mormon enough

You are, of course, completely off base with this response, but then again, that's your normal mode, so I rather expected something this shallow.
It is entirely THE Mormon answer....Jesus was Jewish, and there has NEVER been a Mormon Apostle, Prophet, or scholar say otherwise......ever.

Best,
Kerry

Kerry Shirts just the guy i was looking for Marlin didn't help me much with this but im sure you can

There is no proof that native american's came from israel, but rather they came from syberia, now if that is correct then the phrophesy's where wrong....

second there are a few phrophesy's that didn't happen that your phrophet said would.... therfor making him a false phrophet....

Ricky--

"Some of the earliest settlers of America may have come from Australia, southern Asia, or the Pacific, new research suggests. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3634544.stm


"People in North America were voyaging by sea some 8,000 years ago, boosting a theory that some of the continent's first settlers arrived there by boat."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3517229.stm

There are some articles of what Modern research is finding out about the population of the Americas.

They're growing closer to realizing what really happened; and where the first settlers came from. And it doesn't mention anything about syberia... It mentions settlers coming by boat, and from different corners of the earth.

Harmonious with BoM Jaredites sailing by boat and arriving to the americas, and by the family of Lehi also arriving by boat then colonizing.


The idea of syberia etc... the shadows scatter as the light breaks through. Id est, it's not only old fashioned but proving to be very weak under comparison to modern discoveries.

Hi everyone I'm dumb !

html coding in sciforums allows me this

I like to say things that aren't true and attribute them to somone else

go read some books, ur in desperate need of some education.