Where did the matter come from in the first place to create the Big Bang?

Some people say the universe is cyclic. That there was never a beginning and will be no end. That the matter explodes outward, then implodes, and that big crunch results in another big bang, et cetera. Maybe. I think that sometimes people need to envision an beginning, middle, and end simply because all our stories have been so for millennia.

My guess has always been that the matter was compressed into a fairly small space (in universal terms). Who knows what actually started it, we can only guess and may well continue to guess for the rest of our lifes

I'll try and simplify the way I see it:

people see time like this:

B---------------------M------------------------E

The thing is the universe has some effects that means time isn't so straight, in fact what ever length you define, it's only from your point of reference and in what ever measurement your use to.

Due to the universe having all these differences, it's not just one singular line, but a multiple number of them.

Most people would percieve these as parallel lines:



B---------------------M------------------------E
B---------------------M------------------------E
B---------------------M------------------------E

Now this is all very well, but there is still a beginning, and a middle and an end, and they all exist at the same point.
In all due respects if this was the case, nothing would exist.

The way I perceive it, is these parallel instances don't align.

Some people might have seen a trace at some point when they move their arm, well I believe thats a universal give-away as to how time lines are comprised. (A mantra)

[EDIT: Had to use (.)'s instead of spaces.]

.....................B---------------------M------------------------E
B---------------------M------------------------E
.........................................B---------------------M------------------------E

The understanding here is that the (B)eginning can occur at different points throughout the time layers, which means that it would be theoretically possible to communicate/interact with a future or past point.

(BTW, I mentioned that there are "Timing differences" throughout the universe caused by Gravitational distortions, which means my lines which are all the same length, could quite easily be of different lengths.)

But what has this to do with the Big Bang?

The universe is moving, which means if a Bang was to occur at a beginning point, and it occured with the layers like I've explained, then Lesser bangs would occur at different points in the universe at exactly the same time.

As for this whole Big Crunch reasoning, I would really be too bothered with it. It's just a theory, like the Big Bang, and I really do think that it has a few inaccuracies.

For instance there is a point that Dark Matter, might only exist within our reality to stop a Crunch. Dark matter would be matter transposed through the layers of time, and would exist fully elsewhere.

If dark matter (or the fully matter it would be) is pulled through the layers to one space it would create parallels in the sense that the universes that are now created would greatly differ.

I say this all theoretics though, so don't hold it as true, and yes, I suppose you could say this is my understanding of it.

[I appologise if this is untangible as a text, but there are many things I have left out because the details would be emense]

Isn't that theory just like the multiverse theory or am I intrepretting it wrong?

Are the layers of time in the same "world" (just like a layer cake) or in a different place (each layer of the cake being in a different cooking pan)?

When you say parallel it could mean different things.

Well, my thoery is that anything that confuses me is either a good idea or the person doesn't know himself

The matter might have come from a quantum fluctuation of the nothing...

:)

Grazzhopper (and others),

I intend to make it a bit mre explainable in the future, I'm going to have to make a Flash animation though to explain it properly, and try to keep it short and sweet.

I believe that I've encompassed a small amount (if not greater) of multiworlds theory, this is because of an evolution of thought in how the way things are, thats why presently some of my posts might seem a little confusing (and possibly conflicting if you look back at some of the older ones).

As for "Cake layers", lets says it's a mixture between the two.

A "multiworld" has an object with a value of '1', how it got this value is because of it's layers, these layers are a portion of that multiworld, but they too have the same value within then from a relative position. (namely a can of beans in a layer would have the same dimensions and mass as the one in the multiworld)

There are two points though, one is if an inconsistancy occurs in the layers, where the value changes. For instance a 0.

Multiworld = LayerA + LayerB + LayerC

1 = 0 + 1 + 1
1 = 1 + 1 + 0
1 = 1 + 0 + 1
0 = 1 + 0 + 0
0 = 0 + 0 + 1
0 = 0 + 1 + 0
1>= 1 + 1 + 1
0<= 0 + 0 + 0

Okay the above is meant to be aligned like the small calc at the top (a nice and simple one)
The idea is that the first number (the equation's answer) represents the multiworld, while the others are three layers that make the answer up.

As you can see most are 1's or 0's, that work to a value where 2/3 makes the greater. There are two calcs though were you have a Whole multiworld (3/3), and I've added (< and >) to just give a representation (although inaccurate to the meanings).

If an object achieved 1>, then it's quanta would be greatly increased (in fact it's natural radioactive decay would be sped up, so you could say it's being turned radioactive).

If an object achieved 0<, then yes it would no longer exist, and the motions to make it exist would probably have a similar release of energy.

(Notice 1> is Fission while 0< is Fusion, but only in the context of multiworlds.)

The way the universe is though (according to string theory as well), there are probably infinite layers in a multiworld, and each of those infinite layers has their own infinite layers making them up (so they are multiworlds too).

Each of the layers does have differences between them, because there are universal interactions (namely it's not really natural for a 1> and a 0< to occur.)

The universe could look like this:

Layer 1= 1 + 0 + 1 + 1 + 0 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 1
Layer 2= 0 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 0 + 0
Layer 3= 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 0 + 1 + 0 + 1 + 1 + 0
=================================
Multiwld= 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 0 + 1 + 0<+ 1 + 1 + 0

(This is where the array continues to enlarge, Layer1 is a "Parallel" or layer of a multiworld, but it has it's own "Sub layers". My explanation here has the multiworld at the bottom tallying the differences. The idea is that the layers interact with each other to cause the differences creating a natural balance (and equillibrium), you'll notice that I've place a 0< into the multiworlds build, the idea is here that at that point the universe's layer can collapse back to one. so:

+ 0 +
+ 0 +
+ 0 +

should look more:

+\ /+
+ 0 +
+/ \+

(That just represents that all the 0's would collapse together.
This would mean that if the 0 represented SPACE that you would end up with a possible Negative vacuum, which is where most people base the assumption of "The Big Crunch". My point here is that it's a Layer negative vacuum, it would naturally try to pull from the other layers to replace whats missing to make the vacuum negative.

This is where I mentioned the possibility that parallels (layers) don't align in straight lines but diagonal, because it would mean that there can never really be a 0<, because if it got to that point, it would pull a 1 from before or after that position. (creation of dark matter ?)

namely:

v
1 + 0 + 1
.............^


It's this assumption that makes my understanding that "Parallels" can't be "Created", but only "Junctioned to", this means I could junction to one tomorrow [that would originally have been perceived as created] but it would have already existed as a layer right up to that point previously.)

Okay, I think this is enough waffle, it would be better with an animation lol.

Originally posted by James R
The matter might have come from a quantum fluctuation of the nothing...

I don't have the Branes to understand you. I'd go with the Ekpyrotic model myself.

Thanks for the details Stryder.

Originally posted by Stryderunknown

Okay, I think this is enough waffle, it would be better with an animation lol.

Whoa... :bugeye:

Based upon your model, why not join all the 'Es together into one and all the 'B's together into one? Then join the (super) 'E' to the (super) 'B'.

That would suggest that the Universe has no beginning or end -- it merely goes through cycles. And that would also answer the initial question (ie. the matter came from the last cycle).

Exactly ;)

This is what is probably known as the "Cyclic Universe Theory" which I've heard about, but after I got this understanding.

Here's a question for you:

What are the implications of bringing all the 'B's and (particularly) all the 'E's together with respect to your "layers"?

:)

I believe the big bang thoery for the fact that if the universe began then it has to end. Which would make the most amount of sense. Imagine the universe as a giant heartbeat and that everytime the Big Crunch happens the Big Bang follows after it. Its a repeating cycle that will go on forever.

That would suggest that the Universe has no beginning or end -- it merely goes through cycles.

Yeah thats what Im talking about. Crap I thought I was being original.:(

B's = Beginning's
M's = Middle's
E's = End's

That's just a recap for those that have no clue as to what they stand for.

The implication is this, a B or E = infinite layers, those infinite layers are woven, for instance a B could comprise of a Majority of B's, but have M's and E's woven into whats left over.

This makes sure that there are no problems with quanta changes within the layers because there is room for allowance (afterall as I mentioned before if all layers aligned apart from one that managed to push the quanta over the limit from the multiworlds perspective it would cause it to increase in energy, creating a possible fission effect.)

If this is truly proven to be the case, there would be a few other possibilities open, for instance Time travel. If you could open a Gateway between two different universes, which are aligned at different time intervals, you could just walk through into a different time period, or a different space because the universe moves. (Of course this is just Scifi hypothesis until someone proves otherwise)

Other implications would occur if the layers were to distort causing anyone that's apart of them to feel the effect, this could prove that possible illnesses might have something to do with physics more than mental or physical state.
(For instance you might see someone talking to an imaginery friend, or talking to the television just to point out a few "Mentally" tagged occurances that could have physics explanations, like they might be attuned to a different broadcast etc.)

The list of things that can be explained is virtually boundless.

If B is the beginning (the big bang) and E is the end (the big crunch) then whats M (the middle)? What happens at M?

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee

What happens at M?


Why, the Big Expansion, of course.

Another question for you all:

We know that "gravity" will be the ultimate cause of the Big Crunch, but is there enough gravity in this Universe to cause the Big Crunch to come about?

Perhaps it's not a cycle after all... ;)

I believe that the fate of the universe is in the hands of a substance called dark matter (yet to be proven but some scientist believe it). By its nature dark matter is virtually unobservable, it is thought to account for the 90 percent of the mass in the universe. Dark matter is considered the "cosmic glue" that holds galaxies and clusters of galaxies together, thereby controlling the rate of universal expansion. Scientists have calculated, as a theoretical limit, that dark matter cannot account for more than 99 percent of the mass of the universe. If it were to exceed this amount, there would be so much gravity that matter would begin to move back together. Then it would only be a matter of time before everything ended with a big crunch.

Originally posted by Stryderunknown

The implication is this, a B or E = infinite layers, those infinite layers are woven, for instance a B could comprise of a Majority of B's, but have M's and E's woven into whats left over.


Now you're getting over my head... :confused:

What I was going for was the notion of parallel universes that differ at the quantum level. In other words, whenever a decision is made and that decision has (say) two possible directions, then the Universe forks into two to explore both directions. Also, whenever those two directions lead to the same results, the two parallel Universes collapse into one.

By joining all the 'B's together, it suggests that it all began with one Universe. By joining all the 'E's together, it suggests that "entropy" will cause everything to lead to one final result (the Big Crunch).

In other words, maybe there is no purpose to the Universe in the end...

:eek:

I still disagree with the big crunch, you see as I mentioned before your aligning all the B's, the B's aren't aligned in parallels, they could appear at any point throughout the timeline.

I explain it like this, if you have a piece of string, it's made from many threads, how you see it is you could get a knife and cut straight across the threads all at the same time, if this was to happen, in all due respects there would be no fabric of matter or the universe, the universe would never exist.

My explanation is the string is cut diagonally, so although one thread might be cut at one point, the other threads aren't cut at the same time. This gives the universe fabric and strength in thread numbers, it can even explain the stabilities in entropy that have been noted, and as I mentioned before even explain why dark matter "evens pressure".

Which is why I say if a blackhole was formed, it would only exist for so long until the universe re-pressurises/polarises the layers that have collapsed. This is why I really don't think there will ever be a big crunch.

Hmmmm.... ;)


Where does the string begin?
Where does the knife come from? (Why would the string be cut?)
After you slice a thread out of the string, does the thread have a new beginning or did it begin with the string?
Why bother cutting the string at all as the threads would still be separate layers within the string?


If you don't believe in the Big Crunch, then how about the Big Dissolution? If there isn't enough gravity in the Universe to slow the expansion space down and begin the crunch, then eventually the space between particles of matter will become too big for the universal forces to hold it together and, thus, eventually cause the breakdown of all matter into energy. :eek:

Perhaps this is what happens when the end of the string becomes frayed into thousands of little threads? ;)

"1: Where does the string begin?"
The idea is that the very threads equal the string, you could look at the threads being created by smaller threads, that also equal the string, but they are smaller versions of the original thread, stretched out. (This can be refered to as "Speghettification", and you might like to take a look at "Smale's Horseshoe".)

"2a: Where does the knife come from? <BR>2b:Why would the string be cut?"
The knife wasn't actually symbolised for anything else than giving a cross-section to try and explain why there is fabric to the universe, the understanding is that the way that any cross-section should be percieved is diagonally, because if you were hanging by a rope and it was cut diagonally, you'd still have some Strength in comparison to a straight cut. (Of course both would supposedly still break, but there I've decided that a better way to explain how dark matter continues to grow with the expansion of the universe is very similar to how bacteria would grow, it just keeps multiplying.)

"3: After you slice a thread out of the string, does the thread have a new beginning or did it begin with the string?"
You can't really slice a thread out, as I mentioned the cut was just a method to symbolise a time Alignment, in all due respects even calling it a diagonal alignment might be extremely misleading, you'd have to imagine it like it's encrypted, where it doesn't align so there can be no singular cut to break the string.
As for the beginning, it's ever-present.

It constantly exists, along with the hear and now, and in all due respects, if there is an end it could be seen.

"4: Why bother cutting the string at all as the threads would still be separate layers within the string?"
Well as I've mentioned all ready the cut was just symbolism.

As for your mentioning the big crunch again, let me put it like this:
If one of the threads of the string (which I have mentioned is a Speghettified version of the original string) is stretched, it won't break, instead it pulls the threads around it into it, in the form of loops, this causes all the threads to continue looping into each other and continues the speghettification of the string.

These Loops are what cause dark matter, which as I keep mentioning is the universes method of stablising itself as it fill the negative vacuums and stops the collapse of spacetime as we know it. The universe will eventually slow down it's progress, but only to a steady speed of the reproduction of dark matter through this looping effect. Which means the universe will continue expanding for ever.

The string because of this speghettified effect will never fray because of the strength it builds up through the lengths of threads that make it up, and the loops that keep increasing it's strength.

Let me see if I understand you...

The string is a representation of the multiverse of space-time. Each thread in the string is a different universe. The spaghettification of the threads within the string suggests that all the universes are interconnected. You seem to suggest that dark matter is the connection between the universes (threads), but I'm not sure how the loops of space-time (threads) cause dark matter. I also don't see how dark matter would stop the Big Crunch as it would add the gravitational forces that lead to the crunch.

I knew that the knife was a symbol, but I wasn't sure if you were using it to symbolize the creation/destruction of universes (threads) or just to show the relationship of universes (threads) to the multiverse (string). I still think the threads begin and end with the string, so joining all the 'B's and 'E's together makes sense and make for some interesting conclusions about how the universes interrelate.

Again, if you think that the Universe (Multiverse?) will continue expanding forever, doesn't that lead to the Big Dissolution where everything eventually falls apart because there is not enough energy to hold it together over such vast distances. If all the Universes are tied together (spaghettified), then not only this Universe, but all the Universes tied to it on the string suffer this fate.

Let me put it like this, The Big Crunch isn't about "Gravity" it's about negative Vacuum. As velocity would overcome gravity, and perhaps cause spin etc.

(for instance if I was to dig a hole straight through the earth to the other side from pole to pole, and then jumped down the hole, I would appear briefly on the otherside before gravity brings me back again.)

The idea of the Dark matter is that the vacuum that would cause Suction is "filled" so that it doesn't "suck". (although that might be a matter of opinion.)

Also you have to note the universe is not a singular solid object, but multiple bodies that have "space" between them.

The idea of the loops causing dark matter, is just to express that a loop is like the distortion of spacetime, it's bent and merged, so it could create a dark matter body.

As for everything falling apart, the idea is simply that it wont.
Imagine I have a ball in a singular universe, I split the universe, incriment the universes so the ball exists at different times, merge the ball across from one universe to another so that the ball exists on one universal layer, and then split that universe again and do exactly the same with the two balls to make them four, and you continue this, so you have 8, 16, 32 etc.

Okay space will make up a thread, but those threads now merge with the threads that have matter, so they pretty much go back to the same thread. This gives a multiplication that makes the mass of the universe not just infinite but continuing to grow.

(This is kind of how I meant by the bacteria analogy.)

Forgive the jumping around below, but I'm having trouble following your line of thought.

Are you using the term "dark matter" in the same fashion as other scientists? My understanding of dark matter is that it is a theoretical construct to add gravity to the Universe. That is, scientists have added up the matter in the visible universe (how I'm not sure) and determined that there isn't enough matter to account for the gravitational attraction that holds galaxies together. Since matter is the only thing that generates gravity, scientists then theorized that there must be more matter out there that is not visible (thus "dark matter"). Whether you assume "dark matter" to be matter or a distortion in space-time, its reason for existence is to affect "gravity" and, thus, keep the Universe together.

What is a "negative vacuum"? I thought vacuums were neither negative or positive, but were rather a zero point.

Oh, are you saying that what we call "dark matter" is really matter in a parallel universe (different thread) that is affecting our universe? The matter is invisible because it is not in our universe, but its effect (gravity) bridges the gap?

Let me try explaining something else:

If you have two trains in a tunnel, one facing either direction. They have both been rigged with a starter that will accelerate them at the same speed with a great amount of G-force.

When they both start they will only travel so far until the trains create a significant "negative vacuum" before it slows them and starts to draw them back.

A vacuum is suppose to be an area of space that contains nothing, with a neutral pressure. But vacuums can also be negative, afterall why do you think there are vacuum cleaners?
In fact a vacuum cleaner could explain the idea for why blackholes don't work, in the sense that a vacuum only pulls air in while there is a negative pressure, if it was to equalise it, then you wouldn't call it a vacuum.

Notice here that the trains, although weighing the same are not in anyway causing themselves to pull together because of gravity.

My explanation of the way the universe works in the same way, of course rather than trains it's the universe spreading out from an initial point. The difference is that because of the distortions of the universe through String Theory and Timespace.

I mentioned of those loops, well in this cause it multiple planes of a multiverse that find themselves being sucked into a plane of existance because the universes quanta begins to flatten.
(This creates a negative vacuum through parallel layers, and causes the differing time points to compress and fill in layer. A bit like a puddle rolling back into the well when you might have put a foot in it.)

To tell you the truth it's more likely that dark matter is just multiple layers of zero-point energy, that have built up because each layer is different due to some Non-locality effect caused with universal changes or different time points.

Hmmm. I shall have to consider this for awhile...

In fact a vacuum cleaner could explain the idea for why blackholes don't work

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA....

- Warren

:confused:

"In fact a vacuum cleaner could explain the idea for why blackholes don't work" should include "when switched off".

As I've mentioned before, the idea is that once the vacuum neutralises, it no longer sucks.

Although it seems Warren aka Chroot likes this :D

[Edit:]
I was trying to add during the forum problems an edit to this, and ended up forgetting it. It's not just switching the vacuum cleaner off, its the fact that when they get filled they can't suck up anymore.

This thread made me laugh so hard I almost threw up. This stuff should definitely be on the cover of The National Enquirer.

Hoover Scientist Discovers Secrets of the Universe with an Upright Vacuum Cleaner

- Warren

wow. too much thought. i dunno if my belief has a name or anything but here's how i look at it.

The universe IS. odds are, we are never gonna know how it got here, because anyone who could've been there when it happened is gone now. *unless you believe in god, but then, odds are, you believe in creation, so its a moot point*. Too often i think people aren't willing to accept that some things just ARE.

but i guess i'm in the wrong forum for that type of arguement. Back to free thoughts as philosophy for me...

Okay, so when the universe has expanded to its maximum, and start to fall back again, will the fall take as long as the expansion did? If not, where is the M?

Don't know whats going on with vacumn cleaners but...

To answer the original question...

I thought that the matter came from a large amount of energy, which was "converted" into the matter....

Where did the energy come from?

Anyones guess really. Could have been a god, personally I think that it came from a parrallel universe or something.

The matter might have come from a quantum fluctuation of the nothing

That nothing really truly bothers me, but it's also innately amusing. Not the concept, but the nothing itself. It's funny, and I can't explain why.

Maybe god is like a child. Continually fascinated by simple things. For all eternity he's been sitting around blowing incredibly bizzare and amazingly inexplicable bubbles.

We're getting too smart.

God: "Lets see if you can figure this one out then".

Correct me if I'm wrong, which I am almost certain I will be, but didn't Einstein's theory of relativity state that space and time are relative to where you perceive it from? And there is, in theory, no "before the big bang", that is where all time and space (and matter) come from. Reality and existence were born of the big bang. Kind of like asking what's on the other side of the edge of the universe... There is no other side to the edge of the universe. Though impossible for the human mind to truly understand, I remember hearing that is the most likely of theories.

And as for the cyclist theory, hasn't it recently been accepted that the universe is expanding faster and faster from the point of origin (big bang) and that it will continue to do so for eternity?