I guess this question is for Christians, ? but here it is ? Is there any scripture , in the Torah - or Old Testament where God specifically says.... That he apologizes for being a cruel creator and so he sent his only begotten son?

The scripture itself that says that will not be sufficient in my mind, "For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son"

I want a definitive... as in-- Precisely defined or explicit --scripture? Nothing rhetorical. But a quote saying he apologizes for his cruelty?

If there is one sign me up.... I will forgive him. If not, Deist I remain.

I know I made that sound real simple, but trust me, I have been soul searching for quite sometime. Trying in my heart to understand it all, and it really all boils down to this.

Well, a search through the bible for the terms 'god' & 'lord' combined with 'apologize', 'regret', and 'sorry' turned up nothing of relevance.

OliverJ

I guess this question is for Christians, ? but here it is ? Is there any scripture , in the Torah - or Old Testament where God specifically says.... That he apologizes for being a cruel creator and so he sent his only begotten son?

I know of no such scripture. But i have seen scripture Where God relents from an act of wrath He said he was going to carry out against a people when they have repented from their evil doings.



I want a definitive... as in-- Precisely defined or explicit --scripture? Nothing rhetorical. But a quote saying he apologizes for his cruelty?

If there is one sign me up.... I will forgive him. If not, Deist I remain.

I know I made that sound real simple, but trust me, I have been soul searching for quite sometime. Trying in my heart to understand it all, and it really all boils down to this.


What does your thoughts on Gods justice or cruelty have to do with God being real or not?

If The God of the Bible is as claimed the One and Only God of all Exsistance then irrespective of your liking or disliking Him, you must still deal with Him. Because if the Bible is correct He has control of your Eternal destiny. You cannot say to yourself "I don't like God therefore i will have nothing to do with Him". The God of Abraham either is or He is not. That is the first question you must come to a conclusion on. If you believe that He is then you have to seek a relationship with Him.


Proverbs 14
21He who despises his neighbor sins;
But he who has mercy on the poor, happy is he.
22Do they not go astray who devise evil?
But mercy and truth belong to those who devise good.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

That is incomprehensible to think God "relents". Have you so soon forgotten the words of scripture?

Numbers 23

19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?


As for apologizing for being cruel read this:

29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

South, doesn't he apologize for the flood, or at the very least, promise to never do it again as a part of the covenant?

OliverJ -

I'm thinking the latter portion of the Book of Job might shed some light, unfortunately not the light you seem to seek. The Lord seems uh ... disinclined ... to apologize for anything. Rather, He gets touchy if anyone gets close to the issue. The suggestion that a human would dare judge God at all--e.g. call Him cruel--seems nearly humorous insofar as if God has a face, He had that vicious and condescending twinkle in His eye when He lectured Job much like Lloyd Bentsen just before he torched Dan Quayle on the Kennedy bit.

As for apologizing for being cruel read this:

29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."


Who apologized?????????????? Did i apologize for God ??????????? Quote my apology if you can. otherwise do not falsely accuse me ok.



That is incomprehensible to think God "relents". Have you so soon forgotten the words of scripture?

Numbers 23

19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?


Well who here has forgotten scripture??????????

Have a read of some scripture and it will remind you of what you have forgotten. If in fact the Holy Spirit has ever guided you in understanding?

Exodus 32
11Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: "LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, "He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever."' 14 So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

2 Samuel 24:16
And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "It is enough; now restrain your hand." And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.


Psalm 106:45
And for their sake He remembered His covenant, And relented according to the multitude of His mercies.

Jeremiah 18
5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.


Jonah 3
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. 7And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. 8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Oh the whole book of Jonah is about God relenting from deserved punishment because of peoples repentance. I could keep on quoting §outh§tar but what’s the point? You read my post and come out with a false accusation no wonder you have read scripture and come out with a false interpretation of the will of God.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

I guess this question is for Christians, ? but here it is ? Is there any scripture , in the Torah - or Old Testament where God specifically says.... That he apologizes for being a cruel creator and so he sent his only begotten son?

The scripture itself that says that will not be sufficient in my mind, "For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son"

I want a definitive... as in-- Precisely defined or explicit --scripture? Nothing rhetorical. But a quote saying he apologizes for his cruelty?

If there is one sign me up.... I will forgive him. If not, Deist I remain.

I know I made that sound real simple, but trust me, I have been soul searching for quite sometime. Trying in my heart to understand it all, and it really all boils down to this.





Well with all do respect i would like to ask the christians here if Jesus(saws) was God's only begotten son the explain psalms 2:7 (says david is God's begotten son) only curious for your answer please take no disrespect.......peace :)

I guess this question is for Christians, ? but here it is ? Is there any scripture , in the Torah - or Old Testament where God specifically says.... That he apologizes for being a cruel creator and so he sent his only begotten son?

The scripture itself that says that will not be sufficient in my mind, "For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son"

I want a definitive... as in-- Precisely defined or explicit --scripture? Nothing rhetorical. But a quote saying he apologizes for his cruelty?

If there is one sign me up.... I will forgive him. If not, Deist I remain.

I know I made that sound real simple, but trust me, I have been soul searching for quite sometime. Trying in my heart to understand it all, and it really all boils down to this.I don't understand why He would be a cruel creator for sending His only son...why? Jesus still had his own will. Is God a cruel creator because we don't follow Him? Saving humanity isn't a act of cruelty. Though Jesus didn't want to die, and asked God if there weren't another way, but He also said that He would follow Gods will not his own will. Do you think Jesus didn't know that He would suffer? Some fathers have to send their sons into war, some things just have to be.

Also, since Jesus had His free will in life, He could have changed the destiny so that He wouldn't be crucified, but that would take away the purpouse of sending Him, He knew what was going to happen to Him every step of the way and didn't try to change it. He also said alot about what was going to happen to the followers though they didn't allways understand it.

Oliver,
God is not a cruel creator, therefore, ther is no scripture where He apologizes for it. There is suffering in this world becuse we made the choice to sin. God is holy and cannot tolerate sin, therefore, we are seperated from him. Because God loved us, His fallen creation SO MUCH, he wanted us to be with him. there had to be a sacrifice to atone for the sin, but Jesus was the only person that could be the sacrifice. this is because He did not sin. He was perfect is God's eyes and was the only acceptable sacrifice. Therefore, if we trust Jesus, we can KNOW God. And it is an awsome experiance!

I can say that I struggled with some stuff (depression) and I wondered why does God allow this to happen and then I realized it was because of that time I had lied. It was because of the time I stole. I wasn't doing what I was made to do an I was misrable. But then God showed me here is your purpose in life, and yeah the struggle's still there, but I know I'm not alone, and that makes it barable. Feel free to PM me if you want more information of clarification or something.

Surenderer

Psalm 2:7
"I will surly tell of the decree of the LORD (Jehoviah): He said to Me,'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.(NAS)

Acts 13:33
that God has fufilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm,'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'(NAS)

When Daivd speaks of "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You", it referse to Jesus Christ being the eternal king, not David. The capital letters are there for a reason, they show that part of the God-head, Jesus is being spoken to. David is just repeating what was said. The verse from Acts also supports this. Does that make sense?

Surenderer

Psalm 2:7
"I will surly tell of the decree of the LORD (Jehoviah): He said to Me,'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.(NAS)

Acts 13:33
that God has fufilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm,'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'(NAS)

When Daivd speaks of "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You", it referse to Jesus Christ being the eternal king, not David. The capital letters are there for a reason, they show that part of the God-head, Jesus is being spoken to. David is just repeating what was said. The verse from Acts also supports this. Does that make sense?





we can agree to disagree then but check out this link :)




http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/djd.html

This explains the realation between God and Jesus. Jesus is the Word.He is the Light.

John1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

This explains the realation between God and Jesus. Jesus is the Word.He is the Light.

John1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days


Thank you for your reply Adstar thats the most sensible response i've heard to my questions on this topic maybe ever but tell me why Jesus never said I am God or I am part of a trinity or something like that.Since God isnt the author of confusion (which i agree with) wouldnt that eliminate the confusion?....peace

Thank you for your reply Adstar thats the most sensible response i've heard to my questions on this topic maybe ever but tell me why Jesus never said I am God or I am part of a trinity or something like that.Since God isnt the author of confusion (which i agree with) wouldnt that eliminate the confusion?....peaceActually Jesus did say something to the effect of a trinity, when He said that God was in Him and He was in God.

I think that in the same effect we are in Jesus and Jesus in us. In that scenario Jesus is like a link between us and God.

I'm sure that you can find more that Jesus said that indicated a trinity also.

Sometimes you have to know what to look for to find it. Sometimes you find what you didn't look for.

I think that in the same effect we are in Jesus and Jesus in us. In that scenario Jesus is like a link between us and God.

But that makes you no more part of the trinity than it does him. Very often you hear people say jesus is within them or whatever, but that doesn't make you god/or a part of god. By that same token, jesus saying god was in him doesn't imply in any way that he is actually god himself - unless you think you're jesus?

All we need to do is point out this:

"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone." [Mr 10:18]

Case closed.

Who apologized?????????????? Did i apologize for God ??????????? Quote my apology if you can. otherwise do not falsely accuse me ok.




Well who here has forgotten scripture??????????

Have a read of some scripture and it will remind you of what you have forgotten. If in fact the Holy Spirit has ever guided you in understanding?

Exodus 32
11Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: "LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, "He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever."' 14 So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

2 Samuel 24:16
And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "It is enough; now restrain your hand." And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.


Psalm 106:45
And for their sake He remembered His covenant, And relented according to the multitude of His mercies.

Jeremiah 18
5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.


Jonah 3
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. 7And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. 8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Oh the whole book of Jonah is about God relenting from deserved punishment because of peoples repentance. I could keep on quoting §outh§tar but what’s the point? You read my post and come out with a false accusation no wonder you have read scripture and come out with a false interpretation of the will of God.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

Calm down, we're on the same side or at least I think we are..
:confused:

My interpretation might be different from yours but my case still stands. None of your scripture AT ALLl discredits what I have said, unless you dare to say that the Bible contradicts itself. Instead of being so haughty, you should actually look to see why there's an "apparent contradiction" in the Holy Bible.

Let's examine two verses of scripture .

Numbers 230
19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

1 Samuel 15
10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

Do you see what appears at first glance to be a contradiction in the Bible? I believe Matthew Henry, in his commentary, best explains the situation:

"Repentance in God is not, as it is in us, a change of his mind, but a change of his method or dispensation. He does not alter his will, but wills an alteration. The change was in Saul."

@ Starofeight
He does promise never to destroy the earth by water as He tells us in verse 21: ... nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

He however did NOT relent, as some falsely report, in destroying all other life on earth.

If you examine the text closely, you will notice that Matthew Henry's exegesis applies here as well:

God did NOT make that promise until AFTER a change in Noah. Scripture tells us:

Genesis 8 (This is immediately after Noah offers burnt offerings on the altar)
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart....

It was not until after the offering from Noah that God made His vow, and therefore it was in no way an apology, a regret, or a "relenting" of His divine authority.


As for Adstar:

This is the definition of relent

1: to become less severe, harsh, or strict usually from reasons of humanity
2: LET UP, SLACKEN

I hope you now see that God does NOT relent His eternal will. The examples you showed only PROVE that our God is a God who is compassionate and shows mercy.

Remember, God has already planned out the ENTIRE course of eternity. He will NOT relent because His will is "that which is good and perfect". Do you notice that in the verses you culled, His compassion is a result of mankind turning away from his sin, NOT God turning away from His will?


Instead of accusing me of things I have not done, you should try to find the harmony in Scripture, for the Word never contradicts itself.

Christians are brethren not arguers. :)

But that makes you no more part of the trinity than it does him. Very often you hear people say jesus is within them or whatever, but that doesn't make you god/or a part of god. By that same token, jesus saying god was in him doesn't imply in any way that he is actually god himself - unless you think you're jesus?

All we need to do is point out this:



Case closed.I see what you mean, and I honestly don't know how to answer you. Though I'm confident that there is an answer.

You will have to wait a while on this one :)

But that makes you no more part of the trinity than it does him. Very often you hear people say jesus is within them or whatever, but that doesn't make you god/or a part of god. By that same token, jesus saying god was in him doesn't imply in any way that he is actually god himself - unless you think you're jesus?

Case closed.

Jesus tacitly referred to His own divine goodness and the Godhead.

How amusing that you forget that He tells, "I and the Father are one."

Thank you for your reply Adstar thats the most sensible response i've heard to my questions on this topic maybe ever but tell me why Jesus never said I am God or I am part of a trinity or something like that.Since God isnt the author of confusion (which i agree with) wouldnt that eliminate the confusion?....peace

Let's list the evidence:

Luke 24
27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

John 5
46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

Can't get any clearer than this:
John 8
54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Acts 3
18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer.


"In the Old Testament there are sixty major messianic prophecies and approximately 270 ramifications that were fulfilled in one person, Jesus Christ."
-McDowell, More Than A Carpenter

South, doesn't he apologize for the flood, or at the very least, promise to never do it again as a part of the covenant?
He actually does. :eek:
He says He resent that He had to do it, and He says that He would never have to do it again.

Genesis 9:11
"11 "I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth." "

Genesis 8:21
"21 The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done. "

Isaiah 54:9
"9 For this is like the days of Noah to Me, When I swore that the waters of Noah Would not flood the earth again; So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you Nor will I rebuke you. "

There is another one, but I cannot find it right now... :/

But that makes you no more part of the trinity than it does him. Very often you hear people say jesus is within them or whatever, but that doesn't make you god/or a part of god. By that same token, jesus saying god was in him doesn't imply in any way that he is actually god himself - unless you think you're jesus?
That is an accurate perception of the scriptures.


All we need to do is point out this:
"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone." [Mr 10:18]
Case closed.
That is also correct. I would like to point out the following scriptures:

Luke 9:47-48
47 But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side,
48 and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great."

Luke 9:51-56
51 When the days were approaching for His ascension, He was determined to go to Jerusalem;
52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him, and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him.
53 But they did not receive Him, because He was traveling toward Jerusalem.
54 When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?"
55 But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;
56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."] And they went on to another village.

I had another good one, but unfortunately I cannot find it....

It is not a bad idea to consider Jesus in a more human way. I mean... if Jesus was God, wouldn't it be a hypocrasy for God to ask us to be like Him? I mean... we all know we can't be perfect. Maybe the humanity of Jesus serves to show us what is possible what we can do through Him, if we believe in Him.

Besides, Jesus can't be God because Jesus was a body. Christ was the spirit and only Christ can be considered equal to God or in union with God (i.e. God within me, and I within Him).

And where in the whole New Testament or even in the whole Bible we see the word "Trinity"...? ;)

Just a thought...

But, please, don't get me wrong. I do think there's unity between God, Christ and us. What I dispute is our inssitance to put all the responsability on God's or Jesus' shoulder. I mean.... think about it. Jesus already gave us a hint about the relationship between us and God. He is our Father, and we are His sons, right? Think about how you treat your children. Don't you care about them? Don't you try to protect them? But at the same time, don't you want them to grow and to become independent? I believe God wants the same things for us. ;)

Eph3sians 3:14
"14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. "

@ TruthSeeker

See my previous posts.

How amusing that you forget that He tells, "I and the Father are one."

Funnily enough, David Koresh said exactly the same thing. What is your point?

However, as everyone seems happy enough to quote scripture, let us take a look at what is written..

Hebrews 2:9 'But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death'.

So basically, he was just human - like us - until he gave his life... but then while he was alive he would have been in no position to state he was god, because he didn't inherit his crown until he'd given his life. Thus when he says "I and the father are one", he is actually lying. He would at that point have been a mere human.

Hebrews 2:17 'For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to god.'

Again this shows that during his life he was nothing greater than human. In saying he and god were one, he was lying. It would only be after his death that he would inherit any position/status above that of a human. The status he would achieve isn't even that of "god part 2 of 3", but mere high priest which has been the duty of others before him, (melchizedek). It is not a position unique to him, but one that has been handed out before to others as the following will also show:

Hebrews 5:1 'Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to god, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. No-one takes this honour upon himself; he must be called by god, just as aaron was. So christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest..

So you see, jesus shares a position that has been held by others before him, but while on earth he was nothing more than a simple human who did not inherit his position of high priesthood until after his death. His sacrifice was his life, and as such he then inherited the position of high priest - which as god says to him: "you are a priest forever". God doesn't say to him "you are god. you and I are one", because he's not. He has simply inherited a position that has been held by others. He doesn't even make just a passing comment but seems completely serious:

"The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind; You are a priest for ever."

So.. Jesus is a priest forever, (according to god). Right after that in Hebrews 7:23 we see..

'Now there have been many of those priests.."

Jesus doesn't hold a unique position. The only difference is explained in Hebrews 7, that the other priests deaths prevented them from continuing in office. It also explains that unlike the other priests he does not have to make daily sacrifices because he sacrificed himself and as such was made perfect.

So you see this all goes against his statement that he and god were one and the same, because while he was alive, he was just a human, and after death he's just a priest.

It's kind of like you trying to make a complaint to a company. First you speak to the girl in customer suport, then you speak to a supervisor, and then finally you get to speak to the manager.

Jesus is not god by any means, but is merely the supervisor who you need to go through on route to god. While in this case it would show jesus is a required step to salvation, he most certainly is not god and should not be worshipped as one.

Basically you've thrown aside gods command that you must only worship him, and have moved on to worship his high priest instead - who merely holds the same position as many others such as Aaron and Melchizedek- and probably the priest at your local church.

Still, as Jesus is a priest forever, we know he'll always like children..

Jesus was never a high priest, or even a lower one. He was a carpenter by trade.
" I and the Father are one"
this signifies that you cannot be praising God without praising Jesus.

Jesus was never a high priest, or even a lower one. He was a carpenter by trade. "I and the Father are one"
this signifies that you cannot be praising God without praising Jesus.
*************
M*W: According to Ralph Ellis in Jesus: Last of the Pharaohs -- The True History of Religion Revealed, Edfu Books, Dorset, England 1999:

"Jesus was educated (in the city of his grandfather, Heli) in Heliopolis, where he learned all the wise ways of the oldest of all religions: the movements of the stars and the ways of the cosmos. He became proficient in sand-writing, one of the ancient skills of magic. (B29) He became the "cornerstone," a carpenter. Now this has been a very misleading term down the centuries: Wy should a prince of the realm be honoured as being a mere carpenter? It was perhaps, a fortuitous mistranslation for the scribes, as they strove to distance Jesus from his real roots, but the position and status of Jesus is still clear from looking closely at the texts. The first clue comes in the Coptic translation of (the word) "carpenter," where Jesus is called the "Naggar," meaning either an artisan (carpenter) or an educated man."

"In Greek, the occupation is defined as "tekton" in the Gospel of Matthew, a word that can abe translated as "builder." However, there is a better translation. Jesus is being called an artisan, a builder and an educated man all at the same time. There is a profession that encompasses all these elements; an "architect." Indeed, one can still see the etymological traces of the word "tekton" in the modern word "architect" (literally meaning, master-builder or master-mason).(B30) This is a much more logical "craft" and title for Jesus, than a mere carpenter."

"This process can be taken one step further, for Aaron (Akhenaton), a direct ancestor of Jesus, was known as the "Greatest of all Architects." The true position of Jesus is becoming clearer: he was an architect, a cornerstone and a prince, in which case this not (the) literal profession of architect that was being referred to here, but the symbolic position of someone descended from the designer of the cosmos. The highest of all the deities is known as the "Architect of the Universe" in Masonic circles and there is direct evidence that Jesus was also an architect, a theological Mason, rather than a secular mason."

B29 - John 8:6
B30 - Jesus Papyrus, C, Thiede, M. D'Ancona, p 117.

I don't think your using an accurate scource. Jesus was born an ordinary Jew in a ordinary occupation. He remained thin way until his thirties, when he began his ministry.

That is incomprehensible to think God "relents". Have you so soon forgotten the words of scripture?

Numbers 23

19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
Genesis 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Oliver,
God is not a cruel creator, therefore, ther is no scripture where He apologizes for it.See above (Gen6:6).

Your minterpreting it. It states that God was sorry that He created man, not sorry for being cruel.

And why would he be sorry for creating man if it wasn't cruel?

He was sorry because they were diobeying him, doing the oposite of what He created them to do.

It's like if you try to do something nice for someone, but they ignore your kindness and start insulting you. You regret trying to do something nice for them.

He was sorry because they were diobeying him, doing the oposite of what He created them to do.

A large part of the question is.. "why?"

If my wife tells me to do something, I listen to her mainly because I love and respect her. Although love can be found in the strangest of places, with the strangest of people - respect is something that must be earned, whether you're the boss of a company or god himself.

We are only humans, and obviously in keeping with gods desired plan - have many faults. He would, as god, know all of this in advance- and as such would have nothing to be sorry about - because he created us the way we are. He could be sorry that man did not respect him enough to obey him- but then it would stand to reason that he hasn't earned that respect in the first place.

This isn't much of a surprise when you look at the way he conducted himself throughout biblical history. So dire were his methods that even many of his angels left him in search of something better.

We can only glean so much from a book, but without actually seeing him and really learning about him and his persona- there is no place with which to bow at his feet, and no place to show any worship towards him.

Our creation does not count as enough to warrant worship, love or respect. All of which need to come separately from that action.

Further to that, he's also the jealous type..

Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god.

I find that when I'm jealous because my wife is talking to another guy, or because my friend has a better car or whatever.. that love and respect go swiftly downhill. Perhaps he needs to "remove his demons" first if he wants all-round love and respect.

that's the beautiful thing about God, He isn't like us. If just creating us, and letting us life after we disobeyed Him, then maybe the fact that He allowed HIs perfect Son to die will. Think about it. His Son did nothing wrong and yet He loved us so much He chose to take the blake for us.

Think about it this way: You are a judge. You have a friend named Scott, and a son named Josh. you and your son are very close, he would do anything you asked him. Scott and you are very close, you have lunch together every day. then, one day scott's not there. you call him on his cell and stuff and just can't seem to reach him. later that day, you find out that scott killed his wife. fast forward a couple days. you are the judge at scott's trial. you come to the conclusion that some one must die. Scoot is the one that commited the crime, but you love him so much that you decide that if Jake, who has never killed anyone, dies, scott can walk free. and so jake dies and you and scott can have a relationship together.

would you offer your son? I'm not sure I would. The amazing thing is that God did this. He offered His son for our sake.

that's the beautiful thing about God, He isn't like us. If just creating us, and letting us life after we disobeyed Him, then maybe the fact that He allowed HIs perfect Son to die will. Think about it. His Son did nothing wrong and yet He loved us so much He chose to take the blake for us.

Think about it this way: You are a judge. You have a friend named Scott, and a son named Josh. you and your son are very close, he would do anything you asked him. Scott and you are very close, you have lunch together every day. then, one day scott's not there. you call him on his cell and stuff and just can't seem to reach him. later that day, you find out that scott killed his wife. fast forward a couple days. you are the judge at scott's trial. you come to the conclusion that some one must die. Scoot is the one that commited the crime, but you love him so much that you decide that if Jake, who has never killed anyone, dies, scott can walk free. and so jake dies and you and scott can have a relationship together.

would you offer your son? I'm not sure I would. The amazing thing is that God did this. He offered His son for our sake.



My religion is different than yours and i dont agree with everything you say but i do admit you do represent Christanity well :) God Bless and peace unto you

Oliver,
God is not a cruel creator, therefore, ther is no scripture where He apologizes for it. .

Please Im really trying to understand , and by no means trying to mock anyone or their beliefs, I just want ot understand is all, here is 700 acts of cruelty and violence in the bible. Please....... why is this not being a cruel God ?

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

that's the beautiful thing about God, He isn't like us.

In what respect? We are, after all, supposedly made in the image, in the likeness of god. Now it can either mean we are made to look like him - which would state that god is a hairy bipedal human looking being or that we share his traits and characteristics. The latter is fully supported by biblical texts:

Anger, wrath, jealousy, hate, love, sorrow etc etc.

We must then question where our long list of flaws have come from. We most certainly didn't create them, and it would only seem pertinent to state that those flaws were created by the creator. If he has a problem with it, he should have created us differently to how we are. If your response would be that he lets us have free will, then you must also accept that he is in little position to get involved when we excercise our "god given" right to free will.

We have been given basic rules of course- such as: Don't kill others, don't steal, don't be queer, sacrifice a cow on Tuesdays, and don't worship anyone other than him, (which funnily enough means some 5+ billion people are breaking his commandment), but even here the religious peoples of the world would claim it's peoples choice. Regretfully, they still do not understand that some of the rules presented are not down to choice. For instance, people do not choose to be gay-- and yet god finds it "detestable", which leaves us asking why he created people that way in the first place.

It's like making a robot and programming its code to swear every 15 seconds and then turn round and say you find swearing detestable. In other words: pure stupidity.

His Son did nothing wrong and yet He loved us so much He chose to take the blake for us

The world's biggest cop-out. In short, jesus is nothing more than a scapegoat or fall guy so you lot can sleep easier at night knowing your sins are forgiven. It's complete nonsense. Accept responsibility for once instead of passing on to a guy who got killed while pleading with his father to save his life. He didn't choose, he was forced into a position where he got killed, and some of his very last words were asking his "father" why he'd forsaken him. And with his death, a million people sighed relief and realised they were completely blame free for every wrong they'd ever done.

would you offer your son? I'm not sure I would. The amazing thing is that God did this. He offered His son for our sake.

Oh c'mon, it's a farce. Sure I'd offer my son, (if like god, I knew he'd be up, alive and walking a couple of days later). What was sacrificed, what was given? How is it amazing that god kills his son knowing damn well he hasn't killed anyone because his son is up and smiling this time next Sunday? I'm sorry.. did someone give their life? I don't think so..

If you are one of these believers that accepts that jesus is god, then the whole affair is even more of a joke. It's like god temporarily killed himself, and pre-programmed himself to pop back into existence a little while after.

Either way, nobody died.

Hell, I'd happily kill myself in the middle of Trafalgar Square and claim everyone is now sin free if I knew I'd be alive again tommorrow. I'd even make a regular weekly habit out of it.

Snakelord



All we need to do is point out this:

"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone." [Mr 10:18]

Case closed.


Case closed? Not really :) Lets look at the scripture.

Matthew 18
18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20You know the commandments: "Do not commit adultery,' "Do not murder,' "Do not steal,' "Do not bear false witness,' "Honor your father and your mother."' 21And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 23But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.

The ruler did not know the nature of Jesus He saw him as a teacher, (rabbi) He saw Jesus as a man. Jesus saw this and corrected him in telling him that No man is Good. Of course Jesus was Good But the ruler did not know that Jesus was the Messiah.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

If that were the case, he would have said.. "Why do you call me teacher?"

No?

Instead he said, "why do you call me good?", implying that he is not good.

Failing that, read my post above where the one and only god clearly states the position of jesus.

*************
M*W: According to Ralph Ellis in Jesus: Last of the Pharaohs -- The True History of Religion Revealed, Edfu Books, Dorset, England 1999:

"Jesus was educated (in the city of his grandfather, Heli) in Heliopolis, where he learned all the wise ways of the oldest of all religions: the movements of the stars and the ways of the cosmos. He became proficient in sand-writing, one of the ancient skills of magic. (B29) He became the "cornerstone," a carpenter. Now this has been a very misleading term down the centuries: Wy should a prince of the realm be honoured as being a mere carpenter? It was perhaps, a fortuitous mistranslation for the scribes, as they strove to distance Jesus from his real roots, but the position and status of Jesus is still clear from looking closely at the texts. The first clue comes in the Coptic translation of (the word) "carpenter," where Jesus is called the "Naggar," meaning either an artisan (carpenter) or an educated man."

"In Greek, the occupation is defined as "tekton" in the Gospel of Matthew, a word that can abe translated as "builder." However, there is a better translation. Jesus is being called an artisan, a builder and an educated man all at the same time. There is a profession that encompasses all these elements; an "architect." Indeed, one can still see the etymological traces of the word "tekton" in the modern word "architect" (literally meaning, master-builder or master-mason).(B30) This is a much more logical "craft" and title for Jesus, than a mere carpenter."

"This process can be taken one step further, for Aaron (Akhenaton), a direct ancestor of Jesus, was known as the "Greatest of all Architects." The true position of Jesus is becoming clearer: he was an architect, a cornerstone and a prince, in which case this not (the) literal profession of architect that was being referred to here, but the symbolic position of someone descended from the designer of the cosmos. The highest of all the deities is known as the "Architect of the Universe" in Masonic circles and there is direct evidence that Jesus was also an architect, a theological Mason, rather than a secular mason."

B29 - John 8:6
B30 - Jesus Papyrus, C, Thiede, M. D'Ancona, p 117.

Why is this "far more logical"? You are grasping for air...

EACH time there is something about Christianity, you just have to..
:(

And why would he be sorry for creating man if it wasn't cruel?

Alpha go to the 1st page and read my posts. They will explain it to you.

EDIT: I meant the first page..

I don't think your using an accurate scource. Jesus was born an ordinary Jew in a ordinary occupation. He remained thin way until his thirties, when he began his ministry.
**************
M*W: But, then, who are you to say what is an "accurate source?" You don't read anything but the "Bible." So your knowledge of truth is quite limited.

Gee, MW:

If that was the case, then we shouldn't listened to your biased viewpoints either.

Hypocrite.

I don't think your using an accurate scource. Jesus was born an ordinary Jew in a ordinary occupation. He remained thin way until his thirties, when he began his ministry.
*************
M*W: You really don't know for "sure" what Jesus did! You are "assuming." You know what that makes you -- "an ass out of you and me!"

There are many "accurate" sources other than the Bible. If you pursued alternate sources, you would find that there are more sources that refute the Jesus Myth than not.

How can you even suggest that "Jesus was born an ordinary Jew in an ordinary occupation?" If Jesus did, in fact, live as a human on Earth, he was quite a bit more than just "ordinary." In fact, you actually blaspheme him!

Why must you continue to talk about what "you know," when "what you know" is tragically limited?

If you are a Christian, you should be ashamed to even mention the name of "Jesus!" Bow your ass down and pray, mother fucker!

Gee, MW:

If that was the case, then we shouldn't listened to your biased viewpoints either.

Hypocrite.
*************
South-fucking stupid star- you really don't have to read or listen to what I have to say. You are a lost soul. In the future, please don't read my posts. You are not worthy of them.

*************
South-fucking stupid star- you really don't have to read or listen to what I have to say. You are a lost soul. In the future, please don't read my posts. You are not worthy of them.

By using your own "logic", I showed that you are a hypocrite.

By using your own "logic", I showed that you are a hypocrite.
*************
M*W: South-fucking-stupid-star, I am no hypocrite. A hypocrite will say they believe in Jesus when they don't. I don't believe in Jesus OR Christianity. Therefore, I am NO hypocrite. I tell it as it is. Just because it doesn't fit into YOUR logic, doesn't make it true. You're a lost soul.

*************
M*W: South-fucking-stupid-star, I am no hypocrite. A hypocrite will say they believe in Jesus when they don't. I don't believe in Jesus OR Christianity. Therefore, I am NO hypocrite. I tell it as it is. Just because it doesn't fit into YOUR logic, doesn't make it true. You're a lost soul.

Again you are TOTALLY in denial:

You claim someone's opinion is invalid because all they read is the Bible, but you are the HYPOCRITE who has the prejudice towards all of Christianity.

Again, your own "logic" discredits you.



Allow Christ to wash away your foolishness in His eternally perfect blood.

Again you are TOTALLY in denial: You claim someone's opinion is invalid because all they read is the Bible, but you are the HYPOCRITE who has the prejudice towards all of Christianity.

Again, your own "logic" discredits you.

Allow Christ to wash away your foolishness in His eternally perfect blood.
*************
M*W: You are speaking from a Christian point of view. I'm not in DENIAL -- YOU ARE!

The Bible is NOT factual -- there are so many discrepancies! How can you say I'm a hypocrite when I tell it like it is? You are the hypocrite -- you won't accept the truth! Christ, himself, cannot wash away anything except his dirty socks. You are lost. You do not have the intelligent capacity to understand the One Spirit of God. You cannot make the truth prevail, so give it up, mother fucker!

*************
M*W: You are speaking from a Christian point of view. I'm not in DENIAL -- YOU ARE!

The Bible is NOT factual -- there are so many discrepancies! How can you say I'm a hypocrite when I tell it like it is? You are the hypocrite -- you won't accept the truth! Christ, himself, cannot wash away anything except his dirty socks. You are lost. You do not have the intelligent capacity to understand the One Spirit of God. You cannot make the truth prevail, so give it up, mother fucker!

Careful, there are children about. :mad:

Well, gee, then I guess I should say you are speaking from a vicious heretic's point of view. How can I "not have the intelligent capacity to understand the One Spirit of God" if NO man on earth is capable of such an impossible feat?

There are no discrepancies in God's word. You continue to be blinded by your unfortunate bias. Satan is laughing at you because you are ignorantly embracing a lie.

Why call me a "mother fucker"? I don't participate in such lewd acts as your fellow heathen. Repent at once of this indecency please!

Careful, there are children about. :mad:

Well, gee, then I guess I should say you are speaking from a vicious heretic's point of view. How can I "not have the intelligent capacity to understand the One Spirit of God" if NO man on earth is capable of such an impossible feat?

There are no discrepancies in God's word. You continue to be blinded by your unfortunate bias. Satan is laughing at you because you are ignorantly embracing a lie.

Why call me a "mother fucker"? I don't participate in such lewd acts as your fellow heathen. Repent at once of this indecency please!
**************
M*W: You are a "lewd act" because you believe in Jesus! I will never repent! I trusted Christianity, but it was false. It led me astray! There is no truth in Christianity! Jesus didn't die for you! He didn't die for me! Jesus didn't die for any human being! You are so seriously lost it's unreal!

M*W, what exactly do you mean by "I will never repent." You've made plenty of comments to the effect that you simply don't know whether Jesus existed, what Jesus did, and who Jesus was. it shouldn't surprise you in the least that Jesus died for someone.

You say that Christianity led you astray but how? Are you suggesting that Christian morals such as not to be prideful led you astray or something else?

**************
M*W: You are a "lewd act" because you believe in Jesus! I will never repent! I trusted Christianity, but it was false. It led me astray! There is no truth in Christianity! Jesus didn't die for you! He didn't die for me! Jesus didn't die for any human being! You are so seriously lost it's unreal!

Ok, ok. Since you wanted me to ask, I will:

How did Christianity "lead" you "astray"?

EDIT: Crap, sorry for repeating okinrus. Didn't see yours in time..

MW
I trusted Christianity, but it was false. It led me astray

Please explain how your trust was broken? How did it lead you astray?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Please Im really trying to understand , and by no means trying to mock anyone or their beliefs, I just want ot understand is all, here is 700 acts of cruelty and violence in the bible. Please....... why is this not being a cruel God ?

Oliver,
Your inquisitive and honestly trying to understand something, that's good! don't worrie about sounding like you moking someone, your good.

I was looking at your site and there are a few flaws with it. I could go though each one but I'd bore you to death reading through all those, so I will refrain. (unless you would like me to, I have no problem doing that)

I think part of the reason that we see God is cruel is because we don't fully understand(and won't be able to 'till we die) God and traits of him such as sovereinty, and righteousness and His love. I think that perhaps sometimes, we expect God to show mercy towards us then we get angry and see Him as mean and cruel when He disciplines us.

Here's something interesting about the story of Sodom and Gomerrah: God told Abraham that He was going to destroy the city for it's wickedness. Abraham then asked of God, "Lord if there are 50 men that follow You, will you spare the city?" God says alright. then Abraham asks God, "Lord, if there are 45 men that follow you, will you spare the city?" God says alright. then Abraham asks of the Lord," God, if there are 40 people that call on your name, will you spare the city?" God replies yes, He would. Then Abraham asks, "God what if there are 30 righteous that live in the city. God replies yes then I will spare it. Again, Abraham asks," Lord what if there are 20 that follow you?" God says yes, I will spare it. Finally, Abraham asks," Lord If there are 10 that call upon your name, will you spare the city. The Lord replies yes, I will spare the city if there are ten righteous living in it. And then we know that the cities were indeed destroyed. Why? Because God knew that no one living there odeyed and followed Him. God could not tolerate the wickedness of the city, so therefore He destroyed it, in an act of justice, not cruelty. How is this justice? If some one kills a friend of yours, would you agree that this person should recieve the death penalty? Probably so. And you must understand, that in God's eyes, murdering someone, stealing, lying, etc. are all the same. they have the same penalty- death. Then we look and see that every day that God allowed these people to live was a day that he showed great mercy to them. So we see that God is not cruel, hi is just. But also, we see that God uses them as an example for us. It makes us stop and realize that every day we live, it is by an act of grace and mercy and LOVE on God's part! It also warns us to gaurd our behavior, for the Lord will only with hold His wrath a short time, and we need to reconize this.

So then I ask you, is it cruel to give a murderer the death sentence, is it cruel to make a thief give back what he stole? No. It is justice. The thief may not see it that way, but others do.So the main thing is, our God is a God of justice, not cruelty.

Does this make sense to you? Feel free to ask questions if it doesn't.

If you are a Christian, you should be ashamed to even mention the name of "Jesus"

May I ask why this is so? I rejoice in His name, knowing what He has done for me. I am forever in awe of His great goodness and mercy and love.

Grace be to you.

M*W, what exactly do you mean by "I will never repent." You've made plenty of comments to the effect that you simply don't know whether Jesus existed, what Jesus did, and who Jesus was. it shouldn't surprise you in the least that Jesus died for someone.

You say that Christianity led you astray but how? Are you suggesting that Christian morals such as not to be prideful led you astray or something else?
*************
M*W: Maybe "repent" was a misleading word. I will never go back to Christianity is what I was saying. I was NOT saying that I have any reason to repent. There is really no proof that Jesus existed, but I tend to believe he (or someone like him) did. I just don't believe what is written in the NT. I trusted Christianity (catholicism). It was not just part of my life, but it was all of my life. I was in denial when I first learned the truth. I fought it. I fought myself. I tried to deny what I had learned, and I grieved from my "loss." It's all too obvious to me now, and I know there are others who are in that same place of denial about Christianity. I've never been an overly (sinfully) proud person. Believe it or not, in person I have a quiet demeanor! Medicine*Woman, however, is the fierce healer and defender of humanity by her words. That is not to say it's untrue or unreal. Medicine*Woman is the voice who will pierce the dragon's heart and slay Christianity. Before you can slay your dragon, you have to find it, and I did.

I think that instead of trusting a religion, you should instead trust in a relationship.

Grace be to you

Please explain how your trust was broken? How did it lead you astray?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
*************
M*W: I've explained this so many times on this forum, I don't want to keep repeating it. Everytime someone is new to the forum, I get asked that same questions. You can go back and read my previous posts, and you'll find my answer to your question. Just remember, "all that glitters is not gold."

Here's something interesting about the story of Sodom and Gomerrah: God told Abraham that He was going to destroy the city for it's wickedness. Abraham then asked of God, "Lord if there are 50 men that follow You, will you spare the city?" God says alright. then Abraham asks God, "Lord, if there are 45 men that follow you, will you spare the city?" God says alright. then Abraham asks of the Lord," God, if there are 40 people that call on your name, will you spare the city?" God replies yes, He would. Then Abraham asks, "God what if there are 30 righteous that live in the city. God replies yes then I will spare it. Again, Abraham asks," Lord what if there are 20 that follow you?" God says yes, I will spare it. Finally, Abraham asks," Lord If there are 10 that call upon your name, will you spare the city. The Lord replies yes, I will spare the city if there are ten righteous living in it. And then we know that the cities were indeed destroyed. Why? Because God knew that no one living there odeyed and followed Him. God could not tolerate the wickedness of the city, so therefore He destroyed it, in an act of justice, not cruelty. How is this justice? If some one kills a friend of yours, would you agree that this person should recieve the death penalty? Probably so. And you must understand, that in God's eyes, murdering someone, stealing, lying, etc. are all the same. they have the same penalty-death. Then we look and see that every day that God allowed these people to live was a day that he showed great mercy to them. So we see that God is not cruel, hi is just. But also, we see that God uses them as an example for us. It makes us stop and realize that every day we live, it is by an act of grace and mercy and LOVE on God's part! It also warns us to gaurd our behavior, for the Lord will only with hold His wrath a short time, and we need to reconize this.

Does this make sense to you? Feel free to ask questions if it doesn't.
*************
M*W: It makes no sense at all. I have a question for you, though. Why is it that all the Christians on this forum appear to be illiterate? If it's a problem with ESL, then I would understand. If it's a problem with your typing, then I would advise you to learn to type. It's quite easy. If you are trying to convince others to turn to Christianity, your presentation is seriously lacking. Learn to spell. Learn to type. Learn the truth about your religion. Thus far, you've only presented lies.

I'm citing a reference about Sodom and Gomorrah. It's quite lengthy, and it's not a cut-and-paste. I feel the entirety of this citation is important. There are some biblical authorities who believe Sodom and Gomorrah didn't even exist. This author does.
*************
"SODOM AND GOMORRAH: BOOK OF GENESIS 19. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah plays a pivotal role in the religious view of homosexuality. The name of the city of Sodom, and the name of its people, Sodomites, became synonymous with homosexuals and with taboo sexual practices both homosexual and heterosexual."

"Most countries have sodomy laws relating to: (1) gay sex, (2) anal intercourse between any two people, (3) bestiality, and (4) a number of sexual activities ranging from hand-genital contact with minors to mouth-genital contact between a husband and wife."

"How did a poor small town on the banks of the Dead Sea come to lend it's name to such a range of activities?"

"THE HISTORY. The infamous cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are believed to lie beneath the shallow waters south of al-Lisan, a peninsula near the southern end of the Dead Sea in Israel. Along with the cities of Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar, Sodom and Gomorrah constituted the five biblical 'cities of the plain.'"

"Supposedly destroyed by 'brimstone and fire' because of their wickedness, Sodom and Gomorrah actually were devastated around 1900 BCE by an earthquake that struck the Great Rift Valley, an extensive rift extending from the Jordan River Valley in Israel to the Zambezi River system in East Africa. The quake occurred at most five hundred years before the biblical tale of Sodom was written down, that is, during the time of Abraham."

"Archeological evidence indicates that the soil in this area was richly fertile during the Middle Bronze Age, about 2000 BCE, and would have supported agriculture -- which is probably what made the land appeal to Lot, the nephew of Hebrew patriarch Abraham, who settled in the region."

"The spectacle of 'brimstone and fire' most likely came from an ignition of petroleum and gases beneath the rift, released by the catastrophic quake. It is not surprising that the upheaval and destruction of the region during the period of the Hebrew patriarchs certainly would be remembered in story."

"THE STORY. Genesis, chapter 19, spins the bizarre saga of the town of Sodom, itself named for Mount Sodom (Har Sedom in Hebrew) at the southwest end of the Dead Sea."

"In Sodom, a mob of men demand sex with two males who have visited the humble home of Lot. The visitors, who are actually angels of the Lord, strike the mob blind and God destroys the town with 'fire and brimstone'."

"According to three prominent biblical figures -- the prophet Ezekiel, the Gospel writer Luke, and Jesus Christ -- the story of Sodom is NOT about sexual perversion and homosexuality. It is about two other issues entirely: "Inhospitality," as Luke tells us (Luke 10:10-13), and 'failure to care for the poor,' as Ezekiel makes clear: 'Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness within her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.'" (Ezek.16:49-50)

"As professor and minister Peter Gomes writes: 'To suggest that Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexual sex is an analysis of about as much worth as suggesting that the story of Johah and the whale is a treatise on fishing.' We'll shortly get to Christ's own interpretation of the story."

"THE EVIDENCE. There are many disturbing elements to the story that have nothing to do with homosexuality. The two angels enter Lot's house and the rowdy townsmen surround the place demanding: 'Bring them out that we may abuse them.' Lot went out to the men, and shut the door behind him, and said, 'I entreat you, brethren, do not act wickedly. I have two daughters who have not known man. Let me bring them out to you: do as you please with them.'" (Gen.19:5-8)

"A father offers his virgin daughters to a horny pack of heavy breathers -- is this not a sin in itself? A worse sin perhaps than male-on-male rape? If indeed that is what the townsmen were about to do to the angels."

"What did the angry mob want from the visitors?"

"The Douay Bible says the men wanted to 'abuse them.' The King James Version says: 'Bring them out that we may know them.' Linguistically, the evidence is that 'know them' refers to 'know who the two strangers are.' Know their identity."

"WORD ORIGIN. Contrary to popular opinion, the Hebrew verb k'to know' is very rarely used in the sexual sense in the Bible. In fact, in only 10 of its 943 occurrences in the Old Testament does it carry the meaning of 'carnal knowledge.' Furthermore, the passage on Sodom is the only place in the Old Testament where the verb 'to know' has been given a gay sex spin."

"And, too, one cannot overlook Jesus' own interpretation of the story: Christ, speaking some two thousand years after the earthquake that devastated Sodom, claims that the city was destroyed for the sin of inhospitality: 'And whoever does not receive you, or listen to your words -- go forth outside that house or town, and shake off the dust from your feet. Amen I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that town.'" (Matt. 10:14-15); also in Luke 10:11-12)

"God had sent two angels to investigate the general wickedness of the town of Sodom and the angels are rudely, inhospitably received. To appease the rowdy mob, Lot tries to bribe the men by offering his virgin daughters -- and begs of them: 'Only do nothing to these men [the angels], for they have come under the shelter of my roof.'"

"PROSTITUTION AND INCEST -- THE TALE CONTINUES. Lot, his wife, and two daughters flee Sodom before its destruction, but Lot's curious spouse glances back and is 'sodiumized' -- turned into a pillar of sodium chloride, or salt. The destitute father and his virgin daughters visit the city of Zoar, but are unable to afford lodging there, and take up residence in a cave, where the teenage girls soon grow restless."

"The older complains to the younger: 'There is no man in the land to marry us as is the custom everywhere. Let us give our father wine to drink, then lie with him, that we may have offspring by our father.'"

"They seduce their father. The older daughter gives birth to a son, Moab, who becomes the progenitor of the Moabites. The younger daughter produces a son named Ben-ammi, who sires the Ammonites. Thus, these clans, both enemies of the Jews, were allegedly conceived (according to the Jews) through the crime of incest."

"The origins of the words 'Moab' and 'Ben-ammi' are uncertain. 'Moab' may mean 'from [my own] father.' Whereas 'Ben-ammi' may mean 'son of my [on] people.' So linguists conjecture. It makes sense historically: for centuries after the Israelite conquest of Canaan, the Moabites and the Ammonites remained perrennial enemies of the Jews. Thus, the writers of Genesis were only too pleased to pen the folktale of their enemies' scandalous origins through incest."

"No careful reader of the Hebrew text can see this bizarre Sodom and Gomorrah escapade -- involving two angels in the night, a man offering up his virgin daughters, and subsequent conniving daughter-father incest -- as a seminal condemnation of homosexuality. Homosexuality, in fact, is not even directly implid -- while heterosexual prostitution and incest are stated explicitly."

"Yet, today, many Christians overlook Lot's offering of his daughters to the mob, conveniently forget the daughters' seduction of their father, and see the destruction of Sodom as punishment for homosexual conduct."

"Some argue that the girls, believing the world had ended, seduced their father only to continue the species. But the girls had visited Zoar, and knew the city had been spared; furthermore, the wine used to get their father drunk had to have come from somewhere; they'd left Sodom empty-handed."

"EARLY CHRISTIANS REINTERPRET THE STORY. The interpretation of the story of Sodom as the inhospitality of Sodomites to messengers from the Lord persisted in some circles well into the Middle Ages."

"The homosexual spin to the story originated with early Christian moralists who were bent on sexuality purity -- for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals -- and only centuries later emerged as the predominant theme."

"To give this story an even more bizarre twist: according to one Jewish legend, both the men and women of Sodom were sexually licentious, and it was the women, in a worshipful wanton frenzy, who demanded sex with the two male angels at Lot's house -- and got it."

"No one for a long time seriously believed the story of Sodom, written about 1400 BCE, had anything to do with homosexuality; not the ancient Jews; not even Jesus Christ himself. The people who developed that belief were early Christians. In Judaism, it is post-biblical literature that sees a homosexual element in the Sodomites' attitude toward Lot's male guests."

"Not surprisingly, once Christianity became the predominant religion of the Mediterranean region, the homosexual version of the story became prevalent, and 'sodom' and 'sodomite' became synonymous with homosexuals and their behavior."

Sacred Origins of Profound Things: The stories behind the rites and rituals of the world's religions, by Charles Panati, Penguin Books, 1996.

Funnily enough, David Koresh said exactly the same thing. What is your point?

However, as everyone seems happy enough to quote scripture, let us take a look at what is written..

Hebrews 2:9 'But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death'.

So basically, he was just human - like us - until he gave his life... but then while he was alive he would have been in no position to state he was god, because he didn't inherit his crown until he'd given his life. Thus when he says "I and the father are one", he is actually lying. He would at that point have been a mere human.He wasn't lying, He was still the true son of God. Spiritually they are still one.

Hebrews 2:17 'For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to god.'

Again this shows that during his life he was nothing greater than human. In saying he and god were one, he was lying.He wasn't lying. Though He suffered death, He was still the same person. He was still a part of God and God a part of Him. That He was made like His brothers, is because He would suffer the same temptations and so on, and understand them in every way.

It would only be after his death that he would inherit any position/status above that of a human. The status he would achieve isn't even that of "god part 2 of 3", but mere high priest which has been the duty of others before him, (melchizedek). It is not a position unique to him, but one that has been handed out before to others as the following will also show:

Hebrews 5:1 'Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to god, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. No-one takes this honour upon himself; he must be called by god, just as aaron was. So christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest..

So you see, jesus shares a position that has been held by others before him, but while on earth he was nothing more than a simple human who did not inherit his position of high priesthood until after his death. His sacrifice was his life, and as such he then inherited the position of high priest - which as god says to him: "you are a priest forever". God doesn't say to him "you are god. you and I are one", because he's not. He has simply inherited a position that has been held by others. He doesn't even make just a passing comment but seems completely serious:

"The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind; You are a priest for ever."

So.. Jesus is a priest forever, (according to god). Right after that in Hebrews 7:23 we see..

'Now there have been many of those priests.."

Jesus doesn't hold a unique position. The only difference is explained in Hebrews 7, that the other priests deaths prevented them from continuing in office. It also explains that unlike the other priests he does not have to make daily sacrifices because he sacrificed himself and as such was made perfect.

So you see this all goes against his statement that he and god were one and the same, because while he was alive, he was just a human, and after death he's just a priest.He's not just a priest, a priest is your "job", Jesus still is who He is. He was with God at the beginning. "At the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God".

Some things are hard to understand, but we shouldn't use the teachers teaching as fire against him cause only he knows the full meaning.

It's kind of like you trying to make a complaint to a company. First you speak to the girl in customer suport, then you speak to a supervisor, and then finally you get to speak to the manager.

Jesus is not god by any means, but is merely the supervisor who you need to go through on route to god. While in this case it would show jesus is a required step to salvation, he most certainly is not god and should not be worshipped as one.

Basically you've thrown aside gods command that you must only worship him, and have moved on to worship his high priest instead - who merely holds the same position as many others such as Aaron and Melchizedek- and probably the priest at your local church.

Still, as Jesus is a priest forever, we know he'll always like children..You seem to know alot about the Bible. This shows that faith is needed, not only knowledge, cause you seem to have gotten the message - so to say.

Ok, SnakeLord, I'm attempting to answer this dilemma you gave me...

"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone." [Mr 10:18]My thought was that in His bodily nature He had faults, but He was perfect in spirit. Though He is still a part of the holy trinity allthough He wasn't perfect in His human form.

The Bible speaks of the flesh as being evil and that the spirit and the flesh is in a constant struggle.

"The good that I want I doesn't do, but the bad that I don't want I do".

(that passage was in connection with the flesh as being the tempting force).

About what you said that in effect we are also a part of the holy trinity since we are a part of Jesus and Jesus a part of us. This may actually be (or rather, become) true, since it says in the Bible that we will all become one in Christ. And we will with Jesus become sons of God.

This proves it!

MedicineWoman is a heretic!


Sodom and Gomorrah is NOT a valid point in any religious discussion on homosexuality. That is absolutely moronic and the only reason she put that there is simply because of her bias against Christianity.

How shameful and stupidly ignorant!

----------------
So what was the sin of Sodom if it wasn't sex? In its historical context, the story is about abuse and offense against strangers, insult to the traveler and inhospitality to the needy. In other words, being hard, cold, cruel, unloving, uncompassionate to someone in need. When you add the male-on-male rape issue, there is an additional offense of sexual abuse, gross insult and humiliation. The point of the story is not sexual ethics because there are none. This story is no more about sex than it is about pounding on a door. In this story, both the sex and the door pounding are incidental to the story. The main issue is abuse and assault in whatever form they take: male-on-male, male-on-female, and today we could add female-on-female but that wouldn't even have crossed their minds back then. In short, whenever this passage is used to condemn homosexuals, it is being misused.
---------------------

http://www.gentleshepherdmcc.com/bible/sodom.php


Shame on you MW! I am disappointed. You chose not to even look at it in a historical context just to sling mud on Christianity. Hypocrite! :mad:

Ok, SnakeLord, I'm attempting to answer this dilemma you gave me...

My thought was that in His bodily nature He had faults, but He was perfect in spirit. Though He is still a part of the holy trinity allthough He wasn't perfect in His human form.

The Bible speaks of the flesh as being evil and that the spirit and the flesh is in a constant struggle.

"The good that I want I doesn't do, but the bad that I don't want I do".

(that passage was in connection with the flesh as being the tempting force).

About what you said that in effect we are also a part of the holy trinity since we are a part of Jesus and Jesus a part of us. This may actually be (or rather, become) true, since it says in the Bible that we will all become one in Christ. And we will with Jesus become sons of God.


We are not part of the Holy Trinity, since God is eternal. We are not eternal and even after death, when we live for eternity we can never ever become like God. Just imagine, you have all of eternity (ALL OF IT!) to learn as much about God as you can and yet you still can't know everything about Him.

----------

Jesus was perfect in both body and in Spirit. To say He wasn't is to imply that He was "at war" with Himself. You are saying His body was fighting with His Spirit even though they both belong to Him. Remember the Bible Says:

Galatians 5
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Do you remember that Christ did not fall to Satan's enticing?

The truth is: Christ was 100% human and 100% Deity simultaneously.

To someone else:
None of your scripture AT ALLl discredits what I have said, unless you dare to say that the Bible contradicts itself.Oh, but the bible does contain contradictions. Many of them.
Your minterpreting it. It states that God was sorry that He created man, not sorry for being cruel.VS.
He was sorry because they were diobeying him, doing the oposite of what He created them to do.Which is it?
...respect is something that must be earned, whether you're the boss of a company or god himself.I think everyone should be given respect right from the start, until they do something to lose your respect. Of course this doesn't mean people can't earn more respect, just that a certain amount of respect ought to be given to every individual until you have a reason not to give it. And of course, something/someone has to exist to deserve any respect at all. ;)
Think about it this way: You are a judge. You have a friend named Scott, and a son named Josh. you and your son are very close, he would do anything you asked him. Scott and you are very close, you have lunch together every day. then, one day scott's not there. you call him on his cell and stuff and just can't seem to reach him. later that day, you find out that scott killed his wife. fast forward a couple days. you are the judge at scott's trial. you come to the conclusion that some one must die. Scoot is the one that commited the crime, but you love him so much that you decide that if Jake, who has never killed anyone, dies, scott can walk free. and so jake dies and you and scott can have a relationship together.

would you offer your son? I'm not sure I would. The amazing thing is that God did this. He offered His son for our sake.If that's the case, then he had Jesus killed for our benefit, which is just plain wrong.
And why would he be sorry for creating man if it wasn't cruel?
Alpha go to the 1st page and read my posts. They will explain it to you.I don't see anything that explains it.
This proves it!

MedicineWoman is a heretic!

Sodom and Gomorrah is NOT a valid point in any religious discussion on homosexuality. That is absolutely moronic and the only reason she put that there is simply because of her bias against Christianity.

How shameful and stupidly ignorant!That is one of the points she was trying to make! Try actually reading her post instead of remaining 'stupidly ignorant'. And so what if she's a heretic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=heretic).

Oh, but the bible does contain contradictions. Many of them.
VS.
Which is it?
I think everyone should be given respect right from the start, until they do something to lose your respect. Of course this doesn't mean people can't earn more respect, just that a certain amount of respect ought to be given to every individual until you have a reason not to give it. And of course, something/someone has to exist to deserve any respect at all. ;)
If that's the case, then he had Jesus killed for our benefit, which is just plain wrong.
I don't see anything that explains it.
That is one of the points she was trying to make! Try actually reading her post instead of remaining 'stupidly ignorant'. And so what if she's a heretic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=heretic).

You are obviously missing the point in order to call me names.

If you know anything about the sort of claims MW makes and her attitude towards different opinions you wouldn't act so ignorantly. Next time read the WHOLE sentence instead of parts of it. Enough about that, let's return to the topic at hand.

EDIT: It's my reply to adstar and contains a quote from Matthew Henry's commentary.

As for the Bible containing many contradictions, you can interpret it to be contradictory if you want to. :rolleyes:

He wasn't lying, He was still the true son of God.

Son of.. Sure, but not god himself. You'll also find that several times human beings in general are stated as sons of god also.. which again would merely imply that jesus was just a human like the rest of us. Of course this differs from the OT to the NT. In the old testament terminology, angels are called sons of god while men are called servants of god. In the New Testament this is reversed. Angels are the servants and christians are the sons of God.

Even one of the roman caesar, Octavian, was given the title of "son of god". It's hardly worth the paper it's printed on.

And in John 1:12-it seems god was willing to have many 'offspring' as it were:

'Yet to all who received him, to those who who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of god - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of god.'

We could state that these people are also true sons and daughters of god, born of him just like jesus. That doesn't imply that they are] god, but merely a true son of god. In the same instance jesus was born not of natural descent, or human decision but born of god. While this makes him a true son of god, it doesn't mean he is god.


He wasn't lying. Though He suffered death, He was still the same person. He was still a part of God and God a part of Him.

As were others, born not of natural descent etc etc, but born of god. Those others would be the "made like his brothers in every way". They too were born of god, but you don't worship them as god. Nobody has a golden necklace of Moses hanging round his neck.

What christian people have done, is elevate jesus to a status that is quite frankly above and beyond what god himself can muster. It's not a surprise when we look at the history. Either way you cut it, god himself was god of the jews- jesus was merely a convenient "new god" for a "new belief".

It's probably somewhat similar to how the muslim world image jesus. They respect him as a prophet - but do not assign him an unwarranted status of god. When jesus states he isn't god, with comments such as; "why do you call me good, nobody is good except the father", christians will argue it until their very dying breath because they need him to be god. The old god of the jews just doesn't make the grade.

I can understand this in many respects.. When I get old and people cannot relate to me so much, and I'm a tad "out of the times", I'd have to pass on my business to my son who would undoubtedly look more appealing. That is what has happened basically. The original god, (YHWH), is dead and buried - while his son changed it from "worship me or die", to "worship me and you get eternal life".

After such a length of time of human progression, threat of death just could not compete with coaxing of rewards. I've seen hostages who are threatened unless they do something and they say "kill me", but when you tell someone to suck your balls and you'll give them £1 million, they'll be on their knees blowing you within a nanosecond.

He's not just a priest, a priest is your "job"

Missing part of the bible: 'And god said; "My name is god and I'm a priest".

Jesus was given the job of priest by god, and assuming that there's only one god - and god didnt tell himself he was going to make himself a priest to ensure people can come to him through himself- then it is pertinent to state that jesus is not and never was god, but a "mere" son of god which has been shared by others, as has the job of priest. So if Melchizedek etc have been priests, and god has now made himself a priest, does that mean originally Melchizedek had god's job? I suppose god couldn't afford the wages, so now has to do all the work himself.

Jesus still is who He is. He was with God at the beginning. "At the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God".

At the beginning doesn't imply he is god. Hebrews states that Melchizedek has no beginning and no end, which would show that he too was around back before there was anything except god, so is Melchizedek also god? Is it no longer a trinity but a quadrinity? No beginning and no end.. Isn't that the very essence of being god? Yet I do not see anyone worshipping Melchizedek, who surely outranks jesus simply because jesus was born, whereas Mechizedek has always been.

Some things are hard to understand, but we shouldn't use the teachers teaching as fire against him cause only he knows the full meaning.

But this is simply a "fast exit". I notice with christians whenever they stumble upon something that completely goes against their entire belief, that they piss it away as "only god/they/jesus/[insert random person here], knows the full meaning so let's ignore it". That is rude in my opinion. Of course whenever something looks like it can justify your beliefs you'll shout it from the rooftops. People cannot progress like this, ignoring whatever suits them.

It's like people shouting gods laws down my earhole, (thou shalt not kill etc), but completely ignoring any rule that they don't feel comfortable with such as the need to sacrifice cows, or to stone your child to death if he misbehaves.

As I have said many times before on this forum, it's a big game of pick and mix - and I find that perverse. You cannot say "you must do this, this and this because god said so", while completely ignoring everything else he said. It's preposterous.

Jesus said "why do you call me good? Only the father is good", and the religious masses dismiss it as easily as a fart in the breeze- in essence completely ignoring the words that jesus said because it doesn't sound good to them.

I guess that's how it always works though.. Ignore jesus when it suits you.

You seem to know alot about the Bible.

My wife said to me; "Elemis facial cream is the best you can get for removing wrinkles". I didn't turn round and say; "no, the beauty shop's facial cream is better" simply because I don't know anything about makeup.

If you want to debate something, it's entirely pointless unless you are well clued up on the subject matter. As such I have read the bible numerous times, and even find it interesting to an extent.

But people who really are interested in truth do not stop there. I went on and read the vedas, the koran, the enuma elish, and countless other ancient texts that talk of gods.

Here is the problem... the majority of religious people have not. They have read one book and accepted it as complete truth without having anything to compare it with. It's like creationists who attempt to refute evolution without actually studying evolution which makes their efforts completely null and void. Their arguments are like: "Well, things are too perfect to be anything other than creation", but they only view it that way because they have not studied the other side of the fence. It is pathetic at best.

If people would spend the time reading everything there is, they'd be in a position whereby they'd have to re-evaluate what they consider as truth.

I have seen nothing that is unique to the bible - but so much borrowed and stolen - from the ressurrection to the festivals you celebrate. Easter is from pagan origin, (Ostara), as is pentecost, (lugnasao), and christmas, (yule/sol invictus). Have you ever questioned why you have a christmas tree in your home? was jesus born with a nice looking christmas tree by him? Do you think jesus was even born in december? The realities concerning this matter is that the whole nativity has no place in december, and you are instead actually celebrating the birth of a sun god.

So you see, people really have no clue over what it is theyre actually believing in or celebrating - but instead just waffle along with the masses, afraid to question, afraid to seek, and afraid to learn.

One and a half thousand years before the story of Noah, we see it's origins in the epic of gilgamesh, in the enuma elish we see the origins of genesis, exodus, leviticus and numbers. And so on and so forth.

But this is how people are. You'd read one newspaper and state the war in iraq was bad- and then read a right wing paper and state the war was good. People have no ability to absorb everything concerning a subject and then gaining a much more educated understanding or belief- but instead read the very first thing they pick up, and consider it the be-all and end-all of the issue. How a person can assume he has the facts all done and dusted when in reality he can't even see 10 foot in front of him is ridiculous. It's a farce, a circus performance.

This shows that faith is needed

Faith simply means "lack of knowledge".

You are obviously missing the point in order to call me names.I didn't call you names.
If you know anything about the sort of claims MW makes and her attitude towards different opinions you wouldn't act so ignorantly.Not all opinions are of equal value... Or do you mean about any opinion different from hers?
How am I acting ignorantly? Show my ignorance.
As for the Bible containing many contradictions, you can interpret it to be contradictory if you want to.It's not always a matter of interpretation. I think perhaps you are the ignorant one. :rolleyes:

I didn't call you names.
Not all opinions are of equal value... Or do you mean about any opinion different from hers?
How am I acting ignorantly? Show my ignorance.
It's not always a matter of interpretation. I think perhaps you are the ignorant one. :rolleyes:

This conversation is unproductive and I think you will agree with me that it need not continue.

Oliver,

I think part of the reason that we see God is cruel is because we don't fully understand(and won't be able to 'till we die) God and traits of him such as sovereinty, and righteousness and His love.

This is why I am a Deist my friend.





So then I ask you, is it cruel to give a murderer the death sentence, is it cruel to make a thief give back what he stole? No. It is justice. The thief may not see it that way, but others do.So the main thing is, our God is a God of justice, not cruelty.

Does this make sense to you? Feel free to ask questions if it doesn't.


Yes this does make sense. And I understand that, But here is what I cannot get passed. It is this..... he knew all of this was going to happen. Yet did it it anyway. This is what I cannot forgive him for.

A Christian once asked me would I rather play with my son , or would I rather play with his toy trucks.... I know you know what he meant by that,, And I said to him , of course I would rather play with my son. But I would in no way be cruel about it. I would rather play with toy trucks then to play with my son and be cruel about it. If I were to be able to play with my son, and show no cruelty and never to suffer , I would in fact do that. And this is what I do. And in doing so my son will know what love is , and no not of cruelty and violence. In turn he would teach his son the same.

I would not choose to have both in having a son... playing with him and being cruel to him, you can teach a child without being cruel to him. , If those were in fact my only choices.... I would just play with the toy trucks. Do you understand what I mean ?

I would no way at all create my son and then teach him that he must abide by my every rule , or suffer and or be tortured , murdered by my own hand..... this is not why I had my son to begin with me. If he didnt abide by my own rules , or ehtics shall we say, I would just say go live your life, I love you. I would not dis-own him like the God of the bible does, he is still my son, I would always love him and give him the love even after death if I had that choice. I would never deny him my love in life or death even if he didnt abide by my rules.

Am I making any sense ? :bugeye:

Oliver,
I'm a little confused. Are you saying why did he make us if he was going to allow us to suffer? To that I say; God did not intend for us to suffer, we chose to allow suffering in our lives when we choose to sin. let me ask you this: you raise you son up telling him that it is wrong and people that murder are punishes. If your son murdered someone, you would still love him right? But don't you also agree that a crime was commited and justice must be served. Are you cruel for allowing your son to get punished, or are you being just? The same is true of God, his is the father, we are the child that commited the crime. Is this making sense, or I'm I just being repetative and unhelpful? Sorry if I'm nt doing a good job, your asking a lot of hard questions! Do you believe in the Bible, as in can I include quotes or would you prefer if I didn't? Either ways fine, just let me know.

grace be to you

Oliver,
God did not intend for us to suffer, we chose to allow suffering in our lives when we choose to sin.

And he knew all this suffering was to take place "before" he created us, he is all knowing........ is he not ?

thats the cruelty I speak of.







Are you cruel for allowing your son to get punished, or are you being just?
grace be to you

Just.
But I would never deny him my love in life or death. the Bible says I would be cast in hellfire to burn for enternity , more suffering and torture. I would not do that to my son for no reason, I would never deny him my love.

OliverJ,

That is why He sent His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Remember, He owed us no apology for our own mistakes but He showed compassion anyway.

I am sure you've heard of John 3:16 but it should show you that a "cruel" God cannot do such a thing.

Oliver,
Say you fall and break your arm. That leaves you with two options, right? You can either let it heal, or go to the doctor, have him set and put it in a cast. Your going to feel pain when he sets it, but over all, which is the better option? I would think having it heal properly. What I'm trying to say is that yes, life is full of suffering, but if you can look past that, there are much greater things that await! Does this make sense?

grace be to you

That is why He sent His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.
Baseless rubbish. By the way, were the Sons of God that spawbed the Nephelim unbegotten?

OliverJ,

That is why He sent His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Remember, He owed us no apology for our own mistakes but He showed compassion anyway.

I am sure you've heard of John 3:16 but it should show you that a "cruel" God cannot do such a thing.

But he still created knowing full well we were to suffer. This is what the bible says. Why would any being do that ? I need to understand why this is not in any way being cruel. Freewill, we did it to ourselves yes, I get it. But he knew it...... why then proceed with the making such beings as ourselves only to watch us suffer?

And once again.....I would no way at all create my son and then teach him that he must abide by my every rule , OR he will suffer and or be tortured , murdered by my own hand..... this is not why I had my son to begin with.
If he didnt abide by my own rules , or ehtics shall we say, I would just say go live your life, I love you. I would not dis-own him like the God of the bible does, he is still my son, I would always love him and give him the love even after death if I had that choice. I would never deny him my love in life or death even if he didnt abide by my rules.

Check back tomororow guys, off to bed, Thanx for your replies.

Faith simply means "lack of knowledge".

The dictionary (http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/F0018400.html) suggests otherwise.

Oliver,
Trust me I know that suffering is hard. I stuggle with depression and I used to blame God for it. I was serving God to the best of my abillity when I started struggleing with it. I wondered how a loving God could alow this to happen and I came to a conclution the he wouldn't. But a cruel God would. he would torment his people. If that is so why should I serve him? things have leveled off now and have gotten much better. And now, by the grace of God, I look back and see that yes it was hard to go through and it wasn't something I enjoyed, but you know what, I learned from it. I learned that God teaches us though those difficult times. the thing I pesonally find most comforting is that God Loves Me! He knows that I'm doubting him, he knows I'm mad at him, yet he still loves me. What does that have to do with suffering. God takes what we see as ugly and horrible, and somehow turns it into something wonderful and beautiful. I think that is why God lets us suffer. It shows us how weak we are, how strong he is, and how much he loves us. Suffering also give christians great enthusiasm for the future. they know that heaven will be wonderful. The cool thing about suffering is that once you reach the other side, you can help others over come.
Does this make sense, or am I walking in circles?

Makes lots of sense. Your post-depression emotions are among the reasons why I love my dog.

:calls puppy:
: pets puppy:

(little lab-mutt "Ko-Ko" wags her tail, looks in my eyes, licks my nose)

God-Dawgit, I wouldn't trade you that for 100 pies in skies, or 1000 deities. Maybe you could have thusly avoided much of your depression: Programming yourself to elevate ethereal gods to the relevance of manifest dogs (not to mention people around you) and to advocate delaying fullfillment until an imaginary afterlife, is obviously unhealthy. What a pity.

Baseless rubbish. By the way, were the Sons of God that spawbed the Nephelim unbegotten?

At least say why it's "baseless rubbish". Be productive.


You are obviously ignoring the blatant discrepancy between "sons" and "Son" in the Bible.

But he still created knowing full well we were to suffer. This is what the bible says. Why would any being do that ? I need to understand why this is not in any way being cruel. Freewill, we did it to ourselves yes, I get it. But he knew it...... why then proceed with the making such beings as ourselves only to watch us suffer?

Because He has given us opportunity to not destroy ourselves.

Here's a scenario that might help:

God creates metals in the earth. Man over the course of time has obviously done both constructive and destructive thing with metal.

Such a "cruel" God did not force man's hand either way.

And once again.....I would no way at all create my son and then teach him that he must abide by my every rule , OR he will suffer and or be tortured , murdered by my own hand..... this is not why I had my son to begin with.
If he didnt abide by my own rules , or ehtics shall we say, I would just say go live your life, I love you. I would not dis-own him like the God of the bible does, he is still my son, I would always love him and give him the love even after death if I had that choice. I would never deny him my love in life or death even if he didnt abide by my rules.

Check back tomororow guys, off