Best UFO Evidence - SciForums.com

orreman

08-19-03, 09:43 PM

Mystech claims theres nothing to hold my theorys togeather, you must not have got past the first page. Apendrapew compares me to Billy Meier. In case you didnt know the model UFO people think Meier used in his photos was in fact a prop left there by a research team trying to duplicate Meiers photos which may represent some of the greatest UFO photos ever. This is the signifcence of my photo Xevious, that it was the first UFO photo to reveal the sacred pattern that is duplicated in numerous other UFO photos as well as ancient artifacts, crop circles and the Nazca Lines in Peru. Spymoose you and Mystech need to investigate more than just my cover page, did you not see page 2 where the left contour of the craft CLEARLY duplicates the Kecksberg UFO?. Xevious there were 2 other witness's with me but only the camera saw the objects since the camera was on maximun zoom. Fortunately for humanity I didnt listen to my dumbass friends who said the objects were just ducks. They werent artists or photographers like myself or even good investigators like some of the wannabes in this forum.
As a student of metaphysics I discovered in the Seventies that UFOs were in fact emissaries from God who have played a far greater role in the developement of mankind than could possibly be imagined. At the same time they must follow HIS rules which includes letting mankind exercise free choice about our destiny and apparantly in our distant past we chose to blow up the planet using weapons of sound( see Jane Roberts "Seth Material") The Spirit created the flesh and not the other way around. We are here as luminous beings to improve the circumstances of the civilisation that we find ourselves. Wether or not you believe this you are still responsible. Mystech a troll would try to make money off of these discoveries and with over 36,000 hits I could. You noticed there are no ads on my site. I have stumbled onto the key to unlock the future for mankind . Our thoughts create our reality..believe and it will come to pass.

moementum7

08-19-03, 09:47 PM

I loved your site.
Espeacially the relationship between the crop circle and the 3 particles.
Fortunately for me I don't need to rely on your photo's for proof of these Metal looking crafts.I have seen them first hand...clearly.
I am interested in your theories and your best references.
Thanks
I will look for the info on your site,and thanks again for taking the time to make your site as well.
Peace Out

orreman

08-19-03, 10:21 PM

Xevious..I am the photographer who took the single picture that inadvertantly captured the 10 airborne objects 7/1/90. Nasa itself has made several famous after the fact discoveries which in no way discredits what the film captured. The blue grains on the underside of the crafts are clearly visable in the actual prints that were professionally enlarged . Even the Russians were impressed both times I met the famous test pilot Marina Popovich and showed her delegation how one of their UFO photos matched mine as well as ancient artfacts. She would be the first one to publically hold up the "Inaja UFO Photo" on KGTV ABC10 . Xevious the point is even if the objects were ducks or wether I had never taken the photo at all, there are still other UFOs clearly seen on my website that have the same projection 2/3rds up their left sides. It dosent take a brain surgeon to see the "REPEATING PATTERNS" which IS what SCIENCE is based on.
Moementum7..glad you enjoyed my efforts, they were for you and everyone you know. My first and best contact is Tony Perry, bureau chief L.A.Times here in San Diego who got the ball rolling on Sept 12,1992 with a feature article and a headline that read "HEY YOU THINK ITS EASY BEING CHOSEN TO SPREAD THE UFO GOSPEL?" Ask him about my historic video"UFOs in San Diego" that contains 10 times the amount of "UNSETTLING"-latimes evidence than on my website

Mystech

08-20-03, 12:40 AM

Can anyone say mental divergent with delusions of grandeur? I think that orreman has given a better argument against his pictures than I could have managed.

Xevious

08-20-03, 11:38 AM

Hardly, Mystech. If he can provide references to articles and websites which corroborate his claims, he's got a case. That's all I'm waiting for. Otherwise there are no grounds to discredit him on accept the typical emotional "This is preposterous" exclamation. If we follow the dillusions of grandure claim, then plenty of credible scientists would immidietly be discredited.

Without corroboration and confirmation however, he's just another claimant. I'm just waiting for him to finish supplying the proof.

SkinWalker

08-20-03, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by orreman
Mystech claims theres nothing to hold my theorys togeather,

That is because you have no "theories." Theories are hypotheses that have been tested and retested and stood up to the scrutiny of peers. At best, you have several hypotheses, albeit weak ones.

Originally posted by orreman
UFO photos as well as ancient artifacts, crop circles and the Nazca Lines in Peru.

All with alternative, plausible, and more or less convincing explanations that don't include alien craft, ufos, or the paranormal.

Originally posted by orreman
Spymoose you and Mystech need to investigate more than just my cover page, did you not see page 2 where the left contour of the craft CLEARLY duplicates the Kecksberg UFO?.

I looked at that very page... I saw nothing that was "clearly" represented. Try again. Or better yet... don't.

Originally posted by orreman
Xevious there were 2 other witness's with me but only the camera saw the objects since the camera was on maximun zoom.

Birds is as plausible an explanation as anything else.

Originally posted by orreman
Fortunately for humanity I didnt listen to my dumbass friends who said the objects were just ducks.

Un-Fortunately for humanity, those willing to believe any first thought that enters their heads is increasing it seems.

Originally posted by orreman
As a student of metaphysics I discovered in the Seventies that UFOs were in fact emissaries from God who have played a far greater role in the developement of mankind than could possibly be imagined.

Then as a "serious researcher," you won't mind sharing your Methods, Results, and Conclusions with us in the form of a serious paper, right? I'd be sincerely interested in seeing the evidence you have that references a deity and his "emissaries." As an Anthropologist, I'd really like to see the evidence you have that suggests an outside influance on the development of man!

Originally posted by orreman
At the same time they must follow HIS rules which includes letting mankind exercise free choice about our destiny and apparantly in our distant past we chose to blow up the planet using weapons of sound .... (blah, blah.... deleted usual "I know the alien agenda" rhetoric).

This is one of the most common rhetorics offered by those that believe in aliens: that they know the agenda and that society must change it's evil ways. It's been going on in various forms since before the alleged christ. Satan, angels, demons, spirits, saints, aliens from space.... they all have a message for humanity.

Originally posted by orreman
Mystech a troll would try to make money off of these discoveries and with over 36,000 hits I could.

Status and acceptance among your peers is as good a motive as money. Just to be sure, a "troll" would step into a Science Forum and make unfounded claims of extraordinary proportion, attempt to appeal to the mysteries of science and history, show a casual approach to evidence, and announce spurious similarities between concepts and phenomena, and then not expect a skeptical, reasoned response by those with actual critical thinking skills.

orreman

08-20-03, 08:16 PM

They said Galileo was delusional when he confirmed the hypothesis of Copernicus that the Sun was the center of our universe and not the Earth. Almost 200 years later they realized his was right. Now Im not pretending to be as wise and knowledgeable as these historial figures I dont even have a college degree and my occupations as a maintence man/bouncer hardly qualifys me to make such extrodinary claims. Unfortunately we dont have 200 years to straighten out my theorys or hypotheses if you have been following our Earths increasing restlessness. I believe the Mayans predicted late December 2012 as the end of this world and the begining of another that is if we make it that far. The Hopi believe a day of Purification is nearly at hand. Now its a well known fact that Nostradomus and Edgar Cayce both said there will be a shifting of the poles and if youve seen my website I give you the book and authors that point out we are over 230,000 years overdue for the next reversal. I also give plausible reasons why were overdue. There is a reason the prehistoric mammoth found in the glacier had a stomach full of daisys. ..the earths crust shifted.
Remember the National Geographic special that had the indian shamam recalling a frightful dream that a giant wind had uprooted every tree and now compare it to the writings of the top writer in metaphysics Jane Roberts when channeling Seth (like John Edwards does today) he said the shift will generate winds of over 500 miles an hour. I read this in the seventys and was scared to find evidence to confirm the possibility.
Back to the present where I have stumbled and bumbled my way to the forefront of the UFO arena not to achieve statis or fame and wealth. My published goal is to change the conciousness of mankind (with this supposed undeniable evidence) on a global scale (my website and video) to project this acceptance with enough brain power to attract the "Emissaries" (who guided Moses) and save mankind from certain doom. Chuckle if you want but I have dedicated my life to this compelled by the knowledge that the evidence I accumulated is no longer available(doors have slammed shut behind me) and this may well represent our last chance. The best proof I can offer is in my very amatuer video made in 1992 that led to 8 feature articles (3 front page) 25 national and international interviews and 3 spots on local TV. Google has listed my discoveries (and movie) 6 times in the first 4 pages out of many dozens. Who among you has relevant theorys with the press, articles and evidence to back it up and I could give a shit what you do for a living. You want to catch up to me read the first 3 books of the following authors in the following order
T.Lobsang Rampa
Carlos Castanada
Jane roberts
Now if there is anything Xevious that I can put on my website to convince you of the photos authenticity or if you would like to see the video let me know .

Xevious

08-22-03, 04:26 AM

What I am looking for Orreman is corroboration of your claims. You say that your photos have been published in newspapers and reviewed by scientists? OK that's fine... which ones? What are the names of these newspapers and magazines? When were they published? What are the issue numbers? Have the people you have talked to mention your photographs in their own books and if so, which books?

You have said that paranormal investigators have examined your work, that's fine with me! I just need to know where it has been published so I can look up your references and confirm or deny your claim. I'm afraid without this verification, I will be unable to consider and support your claim no matter how much I might want to believe you.

Let me express to you that I am not in any way making any judgements about your photos as of yet, and remind you that not everyone who doesn't believe you is close-minded, nor is every supposed skeptic out to get you. It's true that the strong additudes of those who have posted so far can be quite disconcerting but I'm far desensetised to it by now. You'll have to get used to it if you accept the paranormal as a valid phenomenon. Again, I want to believe your claim but I want to see where your photos have been published before I can render a judgement.

moementum7

08-22-03, 12:13 PM

I admire your sense of maturity exspressed in your stance as of yet Xevious.
You must check this out and please let me know what you think.
http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/npcc_full.wmv

Peace Out
My eyes are open:eek:

Mr. Horror

08-22-03, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by orreman
http://www.orreman7.com/BestUFOphotoever.html

I would like to introduce my humble website to this esteemed group and propose ,as modestly as possible, that I have taken a UFO photo that numerous front page articles believe represents the best evidence ever produced for the existence of aliens and UFOs. This daylight photo of ten triangular objects has also provided the rosetta stone to link UFOs to ancient artifacts, crop circles and the Nazca Lines in Peru. I would not have wasted my time to register here just to flap nonsense. If you go there be prepared for the most"UNSETTLING"-LA Times UFO story you will ever see. Orreman

cool site! I'm new to all this UFO stuff.. I have believe for a long time.. anyway.. a buddy of mine told me to DL that NPCC video.. after that I wanted to learn more about UFOs.. I wanted to know how I could get ahold of your video??

Thanks
Mr. Horror

PS. to other people on these boards... stop flaming this guy give him a chance.. geezz..

orreman

08-23-03, 01:08 PM

As requested here is a list of my articles;

Sept 12 1991 ,San Diego Edition of the LATimes(defunct) writer Tony Perry, headline;"HEY YOU THINK ITS EASY BEING CHOSEN TO SPREAD THE UFO GOSPEL?" (Tony writes about the photo and how I may have linked it to Nazca and mentions the dozens of media corp. who had turned me down. He mentions how Don Ecker of UFO magazine who I gave a personal presentation to claimed the objects in my photo are similar to "a wave of recent sightings"in Europe. The last paragraph reads"Orrell vows to press on."I believe they manifested themselves to me for a reason.It's something Im obligated to pass down.I have the burden of knowledge". I approached the L.A.Times only after my areas largest regional paper" The San Diego Union Tribune" refused dozens of my inquiries to just examine the photo. One phone call to the Times produced a phone call from Perry who challenged me to prove in person my theorys(hypothesis). The article speaks volumes of what Perry saw some of which is on my website. It is the loss of all San Diegans and tourists the the Tribune to this day refuses to cover any part of this story. Long Live the Los Angeles Times.

April 23 1992, The Beach and Bay Press, writer Mary Willmont, headline,"PACIFIC BEACH RESIDENT PHOTOGRAPHS UFOS IN SAN DIEGO"(front page) Marys writes about how I am "discovering the amount of disbelief which exists concerning aliens and UFOs". She mentions Tony Perry and his 3 pieces on me by now in his column. She mentions my radio interview on KSON (Brian Mane) "and radio stations across the nation". She also writes about my meeting with Marina Popovich former Russian test pilot and how we exchanged UFO photographs I showed Mary the videotape of Marina holding up an enlargement of the"Inaja UFO photo" on Channel 10 KGTV while being interviewed by former reporter Jim Wilkerson now in Atlanta. She continues to write,"Because of people like Popovich,Orrell vows to continue his mission to validate what he feels is"the greatest UFO photograph ever taken"."Not only is it an in-focus daylight photo of an obvious UFO formation, but there are 10 of them(UFOS) all clearly reflecting on their metallic surfaces the surrounding terrain". Willmont mentions how a giant face on a local mountain is connected with my UFO photo(one of the objects was hovering over the mountain). She finishes with"Orrell believes that once his theories are accepted, the faces will attract people from all over the world. When the world finds out about our (San Diego's) faces,they will come to see them. In the meantime, he plans to continue spreading the word about UFOs".

Six more articles to go. Next is "MAKING A MARTIAN OUT OF A MOUNTAIN"-The Daily Califorian

Xevious

08-23-03, 02:22 PM

Okay, that's two credible points in your favor. Keep going :)

Xevious

08-23-03, 02:30 PM

Birds is as plausible an explanation as anything else.

If Orreman has a photo analysis in his list of references which clearly shows his claim of a blue glow, then he will have more proof on his side than the "plausible" bird hypothesis. Plausibility is based on evidence - and if what he says has been verified independently (as he claims and is looking up his references for me) THEN his photograph is not a bird.

Burdon of proof is everything.

SkinWalker

08-23-03, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Xevious
Okay, that's two credible points in your favor. Keep going :)

The Raellians made CNN and all the major networks as well as several national/international magazines. That didn't give their claims to having created a human clone any additional credibility, nor their claims to be "in touch with" aliens.

Correlation to the media only demonstrates human interest unless there is a revalation of significant evidence (not blurry photos and anecdote).

Where's your articles from Nature, Science, or even Scientific American?

slim

08-24-03, 03:50 AM

SkinWalker, Mystech is one of the Type Of Skeptics I had you confused with. He runs amuck here with little knowledge of what he speaks about. I've had it with him and his "Mouth" I'm not sure he's even out of High School yet.

orreman, I liked the site of yours..I went there right after you posted the link..

There is ample evidence of UFOs everywhere. From Biblical art to the caveman paintings. Modern film techniques have done wonders of capturing them on tape and film. If the Government would declassify their stockpile, we could see ample evidence of their hiding the truth... I wonder why they don't..ha.

I found this one that was de-classified.. its a video.. Click on Military and go there and download it..its worth it.

http://www.outoftheblue.tv/#

check out this site.. the link is on another thread here too..Moe has it.

http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/wizardfl/MainVideoPage.html

orreman

08-24-03, 04:29 AM

Unfortunately Xevious no independent analysis by a photographic expert has been made of the photograph that points out the blue glow. Thats not for lack of effort on my part, Don Ecker, Jim Delitoso and many other top guns in the UFO field were approached in person to investigate and simply walked away. That includes all the magazines Skinwalker mentioned as well as the largest civilian UFO organization whose international director asked me to "walk away from this". The fact that the Raellians made international news is due more to the money that its members must fork over than to any great revelations. Every writer ,photographer,or editor who ran my story was not compelled by my statis ,I have none, but by the evidence including the abundant blue pixels on the underside of most of the 10 craft in my photo. Perry saw them and he wrote about it "some appear to have shiny undersides,metallic maybe".

May 3rd and 4th 1992 The Daily Californian "MAKING A MARTIAN OUT OF A MOUNTAIN? (front page) writer Billie Sutherland She writes about the relationship between my UFO photo and the remarkable discovery I made years earlier of a giant "hooded three-dimensional head jutting out from the mountain". She also quotes me boldly stating "I've solved the greatest mysteries of the world, I've interpreted hundreds of rock paintings,petraglyphs as well as ground markings worldwide". Now I must admit even reading my own quote here rankles my intellect but then my mind replays the endless evidence that Perry labeled "UNSETTLING" and I have to agree with the quote. It matters very little to me that I have already been associated with being the first human to stumble upon this obvious repeating pattern, what does matter is the subject that Sutherland mentions next. "he said solemnly,"According to my metaphysical readings, planet Earth is heading for a natural disaster of epic proportions. It will be the 172 time the Earths magnetic poles have shifted. The Earth is going to flip in a matter of seconds and the wind generated is going to level everything on the planet." She ends with this, "Asked why these sophisticated creatures dont try a more direct means of communicating with people, like telephoning for example, he said its because we're not yet ready. They are, in other words, preparing us".

So many people called in about the article than on May 17 1992 they ran a follow up with the headline "THAR'S FACES IN THEM THERE HILLS" next

SkinWalker

08-24-03, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by orreman
They said Galileo was delusional when he confirmed the hypothesis of Copernicus that the Sun was the center of our universe and not the Earth.

Dr. Massimo Pigliucci, University of Tennessee, said it best: "This is the "Galileo" effect. Proponents of new theories are fond of recalling the many examples of scientists who had be derided, ignored, or worse, persecuted because of their radical theories, which then proved to be correct. What this line of reasoning ignores, of course, is the fact that for every Galileo who eventually succeeded there were thousands of crackpots who did not. For every example of a daring, new scientific theory, which ends up being accepted, there are many, many examples of wrong theories, forever rejected and confined to the limbo of pseudoscientific history. Novelty per se is no evidence.'

Originally posted by orreman
Unfortunately we dont have 200 years to straighten out my theorys or hypotheses if you have been following our Earths increasing restlessness.

It isn't the Earth that is increasingly restless, but the 6 billion + inhabitants. Actually, there is evidence that shows the number of world conflicts and oppression has dropped in recent history.

Originally posted by orreman
I believe the Mayans predicted late December 2012 as the end of this world and the begining of another that is if we make it that far. The Hopi believe a day of Purification is nearly at hand. Now its a well known fact that Nostradomus and Edgar Cayce both said there will be a shifting of the poles

The Mayans, you have to remember were a culture that looked at life in a very cyclical way. Their calendar was not linear as is Western calendars. To judge their culture through the lens of your own is to be ethnocentric. Western notions of linear ‘beginnings’ and ‘ends’ cannot be used to understand a cultural artifact based upon a cyclical idea of time._ Recent vocal proponents of the Maya’s ‘predictions’ for the end of the world neglect this fundamental rule of anthropology and archaeology, turning an ancient idea of symbolic rebirth into a literal and real cataclysmic event. I recommend reading: Coe, Michael D., 1980. _ The Maya. Thames and Hudson, New York. He goes in-depth on the religion and culture of the Maya and speaks about many of the artifacts, including calendars.

As to Nostradamus and Cayce, they've been thoroughly debunked... there was even a Nostradamus prediction created by a college student a few years ago to demonstrate that Nostradamus' quatrains are so vague and cryptic, that they could refer to anything. Not long after this quatrain was invented, the WTC disaster occured. Cayce made many predictions that never came true, including the demise of the world in 1999, that 1933 would be a good year (that was when the Great Depression occured), and some about the Lindberg kidnapping... none of which panned out.

So, the Mayans, Nostradamus, and Cayce are not credible sources of information, but rather curiosities of history and culture.

Originally posted by orreman
and if youve seen my website I give you the book and authors that point out we are over 230,000 years overdue for the next reversal. I also give plausible reasons why were overdue. There is a reason the prehistoric mammoth found in the glacier had a stomach full of daisys. ..the earths crust shifted.

You are not accurately describing a true pole reversal. A pole reversal is where magnetic North switches places with magnetic South in the Earth's "poles." There is evidence to suggest that this is, by no means, a sudden event (the last occured around 700,000 to 750,000 years ago) and lasts many years. What happens is, probably, the Earth's core is a spinning dynamo of Iron (solid or semi-solid) with a liquid outer core... the spin slows, stops, then reverses, picking up speed, then slows, stops, etc. Continually repeating. There doesn't seem to be any periodicity, as the geologic record of these events do not show it.

This is an invaluable tool for geologists and anthropologists who are attempting to date a geologic strata, as they can compare the orientation of certain magnetically influenced minerals to see where they are aligned. The evidence is also recorded in the Atlantic ridge where the tectonic plates are separating and the magnetic alignments are identical on either side of the ridge.

Originally posted by orreman
he said the shift will generate winds of over 500 miles an hour. I read this in the seventys and was scared to find evidence to confirm the possibility.

An unlikely occurrance. There is no reason for the wind to be affected and there is no evidence that it was affected in earlier shifts. The fossil records would show a massive change, perhaps extinction, occurring during a period correlating with the pole shift. None has been noted in any of the many shifts. During the K-T extinction (when the astroid is theorized to have struck the Earth in the area of Belize), there was no pole shift. One occurred 333,000 years prior to the K-T event and another 270,000 years after.

A more likely danger would be the temporary loss of the Earth's magnetic field, causing the rate of skin cancers to increase as some of the Sun's radiation isn't deflected. People who relie on compass navigation will also find problem, but, thankfully, GPS navigation is beginning to dominate. Still, we might have anywhere from 50 to several hundred thousand years to wait.

Originally posted by orreman
Back to the present where I have stumbled and bumbled my way to the forefront of the UFO arena not to achieve statis or fame and wealth. My published goal is to change the conciousness of mankind

Spurious and fantastic claims without regard to reason and valid evidence damage the collective conscious of human kind, not elevate it. This is demonstrated throughout history and can be seen in the witch hunts and inquisition of the dark ages. It can be seen in the slavery of a race of people and the subsequent suppression of knowledge from them. It can be seen in the eradication of 500 nations of people to create 1 dominate country that throws it's weight around the world, sometimes with reason, sometimes without.

Originally posted by orreman
(with this supposed undeniable evidence)

Supposed by whom? Other than the claimants, I mean.

Originally posted by orreman
"Emissaries" (who guided Moses) and save mankind from certain doom. Chuckle if you want

No chuckle from me... I just want to know what of your evidence indicates that the mythical person Moses was guided by these "emissaries" or that mankind is facing "certain doom." Doom is a possibility, and has been for all of recorded history. It always will be. The probability of "doom" rises and falls. Some believe it is high, some believe it is low at the current time. But, most importantly, I want to see what evidence you have that the alleged visitors to our fair planet are "emissaries." You've met some? Have they spoken to you?

Originally posted by orreman
The best proof I can offer is in my very amatuer video made in 1992 that led to 8 feature articles (3 front page) 25 national and international interviews and 3 spots on local TV. Google has listed my discoveries (and movie) 6 times in the first 4 pages out of many dozens.

I applaud you for the attention you've received, but one has to consider that either the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot alone received MUCH more attention in the world press and from more credible media organizations... they both proved to be hoaxes on society. Both of which I applaud their creators, for they've pointed out the gulibility of our species. Both of these hoaxes and others still have devoted followers who refuse to accept that they were hoaxed!

Originally posted by orreman
Who among you has relevant theorys with the press, articles and evidence to back it up and I could give a shit what you do for a living. You want to catch up to me read the first 3 books of the following authors in the following order
T.Lobsang Rampa
Carlos Castanada
Jane roberts

Castaneda is generally regarded as a fraud by most in the Anthropological world. He was granted a Ph.D. by the UCLA Anthropology Department in 1973 for his third book, Journey to Ixtlan. However, most Anthropologists agree the work is not ethnographically accurate and is a work of fiction. He has little, to no credibility and claimed to have become a "disciple of Don Juan!"

T. Lobsang Rampa never existed. The books were written by Cyril Henry Hoskin, the son of a British plumber. He had never visited the Orient.

Jane Roberts and Robert Butts, the authors of Seth Speaks, never seemed to provide any conclusive evidence of their spurious claims. They did, however, seem to start the "channeling" craze and it lives on with charletons like John Edwards today.

SO... as you can see, many of us are quite "caught up." If you want to get up to speed with us, try reading something by Carl Sagen, Richard Feynman, Richard Dawkins, or any college level textbook on archeology and anthropology. Perhaps one on Geology as well.

Xevious

08-24-03, 08:40 PM

slim

08-25-03, 03:13 AM

Well, Xevious that is simply not good enough, you must strive to peeel the layers away, and continually remand your self to the conclusion that man/woman kind were born as babes in Dark woods and unfortunately were posed with many questions and few answers. Some people were mean't to Be scholars, others are naturally prone to to figure endless equations, yet others see things yet to be. Like art waiting to shine, one sees a tree, another sees the ants that make it a home. myself, well I think I was meant to fly, but to date all attempts have failed, now I walk Crooked and I'm afraid of Heights. maybe I was born After my time.. it figures to me yet you may argue that my time is yet to be, and I'm thinking.. Dammit girl, Gravity Sucks in an extremely truthful way, you hold the umbrella next time. OtaeE?

Xevious

08-25-03, 10:37 AM

Slim, UFO's are a real phenomenon. I accept that. The possibility that some of them are extraterrestrial spacecraft is an open question with plenty of room for speculation, belief, and doubt. Any form of truth though must start with a question, and the question I asked didn't have a positive answer. Does that mean that Orreman's claim that the UFO photographs are real is false? NO!! It only means that no one involved in photograph analysis has said that in his expert opinion the photo is real.

I have in many posts fenced with supposed skeptics and scoffers on this very subject, but one thing that I have found they and I agree upon is that the scientific method is a useful tool in paranormal investigation. Often the philosophical disagreements I have with them come in the conclusions to be drawn from what is available when it is applied, not the method itself.

I'm just sticking by the rules of true skepticism. This doesn't mean I am calling Orreman a crackpot or a liar - there is NO PROOF that he is either of those things and personal attacks are both immature and inappropriate in a civilized inquiry. However, there is NO PROOF his photographs are authentic either. From a scientific stand point he's on shaky ground.

orreman

08-25-03, 11:56 AM

Skinwalker, Dr.Piguicci's Galileo effect certainly applies to crackpots that take lives and not promote them like the tragic events in Guyuana, Waco and the suicide of the UFO cult members north of here. It certainly dosent apply to an individual promoting humanity to itself and offworlders with a revolutionary discovery backed by evidence even the most skertical journalist had to admit seemed true.

You assume much when you state that nostradomus ,Cayce "have been throughly debunked". Even in his own time Nostradomus accurately depicted the way of death for his king. Cayce also tapped into what both Jane Roberts and Lobsang Rampa wrote about as the "Akasic Records" a cosmic library of all the past the present and the PROBABLE future which CAN change based on the current events of the time. This library is most likely the source as well for the "Life Review" experienced by NDEs.

You got the story wrong about Rampa being a british plumber. Rampa "Walked" into the his body after his own could no longer support life. The plumber had qualified for this unique privledge by successful meditation. It says in Revelations that one day death shall be no more and this is what the plumber showed us. One day ,after contact, with the "In-Betweens" those human/alien entities that have been purposely created with Gods authority during"alien abductions , we will ,like the plumber, be able to escape the endless rounds of births and deaths and move on to the next spiritual plane. The problem is bodies. If a LARGE amount of the population is destroyed in the shift, which may or maynot be an inner core event, many spirits or souls with unfinished carma will be trapped waiting a LONG time to reincarnate. This apparantly is not what our creator wants.

POLE REVERSALs "There dosent seem to be any perodicity as the geologic record of these events do not show it"-skinwalker

"There have been 171 reversals of the polarity in the past 76 m.y. with an "average" normal interval of 420,000 years and an "average" reversed interval of 480,000 years. The present normal era has lasted 700,000 years suggesting to some"paleomagicians" that we are already overdue for a reversal"-"The Earth Past and Present by Ojakangas and Darby. This sounds like perodicity to me skinwalker . Our earth would generate powerful winds IF it were a crustal displacement how could you not think it would not?

Although my claims are fantastic they are not spurious as I have gone to great lengths for a non-professional to present in any and every medium including this forum my best evidence to futher pursue my ultimate goal of uniting mankind in a common goal to help save our species. Now that dosent sound like someone trying to damage the colective conciousness of mankind.

I learned as well in my teens about the mysterious objects("Piller of light at night") that led Moses for forty years and the History channel and others point it out in thier "Ancient Astronauts" episode. to answer your question the answer is no to wether I am a conciousnee contactee. My dreams represent a separate reality where the answer would be yes.

Skinwalker as much as I enjoy your colorful banter and intellect, you really gave yourself away by discrediting John Edwards. He along with Praage and Fitzpatrick are not only verifiable authentic' but they represent the next evolutionary phase for mankind and your lack of belief or even objectivity means you'll never believe a humble servant of mankind like myselfself could possible accomplish what I have. This lack of "Right Thinking" may be taken into consideration on that day of purifacation.

SkinWalker

08-26-03, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by orreman
Skinwalker, Dr.Piguicci's Galileo effect certainly applies to crackpots that take lives and not promote them like the tragic events in Guyuana, Waco and the suicide of the UFO cult members north of here. It certainly dosent apply to an individual promoting humanity to itself and offworlders with a revolutionary discovery backed by evidence even the most skertical journalist had to admit seemed true.

On the contrary, I think it applies very well to those who engage in pseudoscientific pursuits and ignore the basic tenents of scientific method and the testing and scrutiny of hypothesis. Galileo's hypotheses (he had more than one) were tested and re-tested. He realized that he could predict results with the application of his hypothesis of Earth orbiting the sun along with the other planets. This predictability gave him a theory.

One cannot jump to "theory" without first testing the hypothesis or set of hypotheses.

Originally posted by orreman
You assume much when you state that nostradomus ,Cayce "have been throughly debunked".

Why. I've read both their works (not the entire bodies) and I've read alternative and reasoned critiques. The works of Nostradamus and Cayce (particularly Cayce) do not stand up to scrutiny.

Originally posted by orreman
Even in his own time Nostradomus accurately depicted the way of death for his king.

Through coincidence and ambiguity buried in the vagueness of his many quatrains.

Originally posted by orreman
Cayce also tapped into what both Jane Roberts and Lobsang Rampa wrote about as the "Akasic Records" a cosmic library of all the past the present and the PROBABLE future which CAN change based on the current events of the time.

They were/are frauds. Pure and simple. There is absolutely no conclusive evidence of their validities and ample evidence of their errors.

Originally posted by orreman
You got the story wrong about Rampa being a british plumber. Rampa "Walked" into the his body after his own could no longer support life.

And this ability is corroborated by what evidence. The say-so of a self-proclaimed mystic?

Originally posted by orreman
It says in Revelations that one day death shall be no more and this is what the plumber showed us. One day ,after contact, with the "In-Betweens" those human/alien entities that have been purposely created with Gods authority during"alien abductions , we will ,like the plumber, be able to escape the endless rounds of births and deaths and move on to the next spiritual plane.

It says all that in Revalations? Come on, man! Even if I didn't see that as a mythology of humanity, I wouldn't see that translation/interpretation.

POLE REVERSALs "There dosent seem to be any perodicity as the geologic record of these events do not show it"-skinwalker

Originally posted by orreman
"There have been 171 reversals of the polarity in the past 76 m.y. with an "average" normal interval of 420,000 years and an "average" reversed interval of 480,000 years. The present normal era has lasted 700,000 years suggesting to some"paleomagicians" that we are already overdue for a reversal"-"The Earth Past and Present by Ojakangas and Darby. This sounds like perodicity to me skinwalker.

Nope. You are confusing "averages" with "periodicity."

Periodicity refers to the regular and predictable interval of an occurance.

Average refers to the sum of intervals divided by the number of occurances. Some intervals may have been <50,000 years, some may have been greater than 800,000 years. It matters not, there is no catastrophic evidence recorded in the geologic record. In fact, there is ample evidence that life flourished quite well and unaware of these events.

Originally posted by orreman
Our earth would generate powerful winds IF it were a crustal displacement how could you not think it would not?

There has been NO EVIDENCE OF ANY SUDDEN CRUSTAL DISPLACEMENT! Not on a scale larger than a localized landslide, earthquake or other naturally occuring geologic catastrophy. And certainly not in association with a magnetic reversal. There is no reason for the Earth's crust to "shift." The only effect occuring is the gradual decrease then increase in the magnitude of the Earth's magnetic field. The whole process has been estimated to take 50 to 75 years. Maybe more... maybe less.

But this belief of yours is consistent with the other "new age" beliefs and mythology that exists on the shelves of bookstores and the electronic realm of the internet. Still, it's apparent that you don't believe everything you read, since you obviously give little credence to what I say ;)

Originally posted by orreman
Although my claims are fantastic they are not spurious as I have gone to great lengths for a non-professional to present in any and every medium including this forum my best evidence to futher pursue my ultimate goal of uniting mankind in a common goal to help save our species. Now that dosent sound like someone trying to damage the colective conciousness of mankind.

I won't deny that our species needs some saving. But I maintain that many of your claims and beliefs are spurious, though the intent to deceive is not likely to be your own. This is because you seem genuine to me in wanting to make a positive difference in world filled with hate, discourse, greed and needless suffering. That same world has the potential for more, and I think your time would be better spent at least considering some of the works I cited in an earlier post.

If you develop a defined and refined critical reasoning ability and couple that with your passion for discovery, you might offer UFO research a more valuable ally. I agree that there is enough reason to investigate this phenomenon, but it has to be done with reason and accountability and it has to stand up to scrutiny.

Originally posted by orreman
Skinwalker as much as I enjoy your colorful banter and intellect, you really gave yourself away by discrediting John Edwards. He along with Praage and Fitzpatrick are not only verifiable authentic' but they represent the next evolutionary phase for mankind

Uh-huh... I know you'll balk at the word "Skeptic" at the top of the page, but the author of this article, Michael Shermer, (http://www.skeptic.com/newsworthy13.html) is a respected columnist for Scientific American and has quite a few feature articles under his belt there. I've followed his work for some time. At least read it, then consider that it is at least equally likely that this perspective is as valid as Edward's. I realize that being human, it is all too easy to discount that with which you already disagree without weighing the evidence, but nevertheless, the article has several credible sources.

Originally posted by orreman
This lack of "Right Thinking" may be taken into consideration on that day of purifacation.

Perhaps. But there are many perspectives on "right thinking."

slim

08-26-03, 12:28 AM

Thanks Xevious, I was poking at everybody in A Joking way, lefthanded a little or more Maybe, I poked at you because of your obviuosly high intellect and approach to this subject, that and I've been "Watching you", Being Awed slightly at first, but as I simmer and the Phobia in me Grows to a fevered Pitch, I see a thorobreed Mare Prancing in the mist, Tame yet wild, Exciting and Scary, Blood Racing in the core of your being, and... I...uh.. figure I could just take a nap while you mop this little operation up.,, Dammit gal, Gas the "Scoot" up when yer finsihed with this Batch... you'd do to ride the river with, I reckon...I feel Safe. I do wish you'd quit probing me with that "Thing" your holding, Is it Legal?

Yes, I've had a Beer or three, But I Feel fine... now.

Me, Ive seen good days, and , being honest, some Sucked more worse.. worser.. But not the Worst. Those Puppies are rare, No Caller ID, handy to not have. yet I function still. maybe there is much to explore and learn, but its not from Jumping off the peak of the roof of Granmaws house with her Sunday's best Umberelller Either! a One way trip To Shortville..hmm.. Pain hath no Memory like a memory with one.. kinda.
I'm reluctant to Grasp at Straws.. They Suck too, but a suckee is needed, and I'm.. uh.... heck, I spose I exude hot air mostly..
My motto is to Go futher than any idiot has gone before..(Star Trek, sorta) and come back to Square one, or two, Yet I come Back most often. .. *It is Taboo to accept a preposterous notion that as surely as the Earth is a Globe among ....Uhh, what is bigger than Trillions? many, WE, US, the Earthlings have a Raincheck on being the Beings Exclusively.. THAT thought alone is worth a few observations. People Copy and paste trying at first to Share with others, to basicaly submitt an Idea to many or any that are drawn to it.. A tough skin is needed to sidestep or belay the Negative aspects of the original post that Glare to the skeptics. Those Prople play a crucial Role in the continuing discovery of the Truth and sometimes patience is needed, so you don't amp out and Net-Pinched their Frickin, Stupid assed, dumber than a "Big Box Of Kitty Litter" no-clue Physcopathetic Wasterall's of an Island mentality that they have adopted, prolly cause they are adopted... and "Be NiCe". THATS what I do....sometimes.
Anyway, I have pretty Much made up my mind, No Grasping and Sucking here... When I am Consious I remember... mostly.

Blame the aliens.. Free Vacation and a Watch My ASS! the fine Print was done in the Only Lingo I don't Know.. and it was Raining the whole Trip!

slim

08-26-03, 08:43 AM

SkinWalker, I went and read the Article on Edwards, I dislike and mistrust Singular People like him who use Things unseen, Browesing touchy subjects like Spiritual encounters and Death of Loved ones for personal gain. Most ALL those are Scams to twist FEELINGS and personal loss into a windfall for profit.

The validity of UFO's should share no common ground with wishy-washy Programs such as Humans can configure. Thats like comparing Apples and Oranges. Even Abductions SHOULD be viewed with skepticizm.. Some of them I think are real. The Bible is littered with Thousands of occurances, The birth of Christ, The "Star" the wise men followed, Jesus decending in a Cloud, Ezekials Wheel, Daniels Dreams, the parting of the red sea..etc..

A person must first Believe and know they exist.. Just as surely as Earth hangs in a balanced State, the truth of it is Not Petty.

I think the most Glaring aspect of the Whole Phenomena is the Futility of Denying the truth of the Universe, No one person owns exclusive rights or the key to unlock it. It is as wide open as an individual's ability to see with more than simple eyesight. Its one of the best kept secrets of the universe, or at least to us Earthlings it is. I can't say we are the last civilization to come to grips with the wonders of all that is, but looking at the traffic of the Pulsating Glowing Blips on Radar, the abundance of Art and Notations in History, the Bible for example, close encounters and such Recent proof.. I'd say we as a race of supposed intellegence are not all that speacial after all. Not much more than the animals we cage, or the Forests that we rape. Insignificant ants always on the go and never looking up, If the Light is the truth and the way like they say, how come people can't see it for what it is?

MRC_Hans

08-26-03, 09:22 AM

It never ceases to amaze me that people can claim to see a shape in a diffuse blob on a film. You could superimpose a hundred different shapes on it and make it them "fit".

Hans

orreman

08-27-03, 11:29 PM

Skinwalker, I realized along time ago I will never be a scientist but that dosent mean my methods ignore the basic tenents of of the profession. My hypothesis after discovering the spike- like projection on the left contour of the single acorn shaped craft was that if this object really was a UFO and not a flapping duck then I should be able to find evidence of other UFOs shaped the same with the same protrusion. It didnt take long. While the photo was being professionally enlarged to grain Unsolved Mysteries aired the "Kecksberg UFO incident" where dozens of independant witness's saw the exact same craft that I captured in my photo. Kecksberg UFO Researcher Stan Gordon was so impressed by this discovery he had it logged into Google under my name. This webpage explores this"hypothesis" http://www.orreman7.com/BestUFOphotoever2.html

This page also examines the second UFO I discovered that also contained an unmistakable spike-like projection 2/3rds up its left side EXACTLY like my single craft. This photo was taken by astronaut James McDivitt and appeared on the discontiued TV program "Secrets and Mysteries" over a decade ago and it only exists now on this page and DEEP in NASA files. The Russians were next with a photo released on" Hard Copy" that not only was a projecting acorn shape but had a whip or tail descending from it.

At this point my hypothesis was that my accidental photo of ten "fuzzy"objects were in fact UFOs and I theorized that ancient civilizations would have seen them too and recorded it in their art and artifacts. Thats when I walked into John Coles bookstore in La Jolla picked up Marilyn Bridges book "Markings" and flipped to page 27 and almost dropped the book. See for yourself
the biggest projecting triangle ever inscribed in the Earth (Nazca) on my Nazca Revealed page. This boldly confirmed my theory and then on page 29 ANOTHER projecting triangle but this one had a whip ot tail on it just like the Russian UFO which is one reason Popovich held up my UFO photo on Channel 10.

Concerning Roberts and Rampa being legitimate, anybody whose read them along with Castanada will have found they talk about the same things which coming from 3 different authors forms a solid backdrop for Metaphysics (pseudoscience) . You say there is no conclusive evidence of their validity and yet without their theories I would never been able to formulate my own concerning what is and is not legitimate reality. My hypothesis on crop circles and how the atoms and molecues in the plants have conciousness and WILLINGLY form the patterns they do is on this page
http://www.orreman7.com/CropCirclesRevealed.html For some of us objectively open-minded individuals this might suggest a legitamacy to their writings.

SKEPTIC a person who habitually doubts, questons, or suspends judgement upon matters generally accepted.-Websters New World

Before I read the Shermer printout I would like to mention that I had the pleasure of meeting him at his lecture in LaJolla over 5 years ago and as agreed I brought an 11x14 of the "Inaja UFO Photo" mounted along with a dozen articles and my 2 video tapes. He was impressed enough upon inspection that he quaranteed that he would run the photo and his analisis pro or con. After 4 months I realized that I could never have been in his magazine because it would put him and magazine out of business. After repeated efforts to regain my materials I gave up. The weak effort he gave on TV attempting to denouce Edwards will probably be duplicated in this report Im about to read. Later I would record Shermer claiming there is no credible evidence on UFOs in several TV programs and would think to myself "tell them the truth Michael". He's alot like Carl Sagan who said "Remarkable claims require remarkable evidence" Even if there were UFOs flying over their head. Carl and his Planetary Society would not return numerous calls I made to just examine the photo. Oh but I loved his book "Contact" and the "Cosmos" series. These men have done nothing for UFOlogists or UFOlogy.

slim

08-28-03, 06:34 AM

well, There have never been any sightings of the Abominable Snowman or Nessie in My part of the world, but if people Know you and that you Won't redicule Them, they can tell you Plenty about the Various UFO's They have seen. Many will not report or tell of it because of the Rude Vicious Nature of many Skeptics Its almost like you are Stealing something from them or somehow harming them.. I've never understood Why. There is a LOT of Fakery out there but many are put forth as a trap to fool people for the purpose of Proving ALL UFO Sightings are Fake. What s the Truth in that? If UFOs are Not real then No Harms done, but if they are plenty Harm has been done to weaken The Public into thinking wrongly. I think the Study of UFOs is a Valid Science that effects us Much more than the osone Hole, or Global Warming.

SkinWalker

08-28-03, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by orreman
My hypothesis after discovering the spike- like projection on the left contour of the single acorn shaped craft was that if this object really was a UFO and not a flapping duck then I should be able to find evidence of other UFOs shaped the same with the same protrusion. It didnt take long.

1st, What was your experiment's control factor? Did you obtain some random photographs of equal quality but of known objects and look for this effect there as well. A word of warning: bias will tend to creep in on such controls, so a disinterested third-party is handy.

2nd, correlation doesn't imply causation. Simply finding a correlation between two or a hundred images doesn't imply the cause. It is bad science to say that because you found "spike-like" projections in grainy images that they must be other worldly craft (we agree that the objects remain "unidentified" and therefore fit the definition of UFO).

Originally posted by orreman
discontiued TV program "Secrets and Mysteries" over a decade ago and it only exists now on this page and DEEP in NASA files.

As I've pointed out, the media is often the most deceptive source in this phenomenon (I see UFO culture as a phenomenon more so than the sightings), especially where ratings and money are concerned.

Originally posted by orreman
See for yourself the biggest projecting triangle ever inscribed in the Earth (Nazca) on my Nazca Revealed page.

Nazca already has plausible and very probable theories that do not include anything but homo sapiens sapiens.

Originally posted by orreman
Concerning Roberts and Rampa being legitimate, anybody whose read them along with Castanada will have found they talk about the same things which coming from 3 different authors forms a solid backdrop for Metaphysics (pseudoscience) .

Is it not possible that they've been in collusion, even if not directly? Perhaps they merely piggy-backed the success of each other's work and have patterned their ideas after people like Cayce. A very common thread in the pseudoscientific and new age cultures....

Originally posted by orreman
You say there is no conclusive evidence of their validity and yet without their theories I would never been able to formulate my own concerning what is and is not legitimate reality.

So if you publish a book, would not someone see validity to your ideas because they compliment Roberts and Rampa? This is how new age mythology exists.

Originally posted by orreman
My hypothesis on crop circles and how the atoms and molecues in the plants have conciousness and WILLINGLY form the patterns they do

This is too ludicrous of a hypothesis to even comment on. But another example of bad-science on your part. You have a hypothesis built on the tower of untested hypotheses.

Originally posted by orreman
For some of us objectively open-minded individuals this might suggest a legitamacy to their writings.

And I say you are anything but objective or open-minded.

Originally posted by orreman
SKEPTIC a person who habitually doubts, questons, or suspends judgement upon matters generally accepted.-Websters New World

Skeptic - n. 1. A person who questions the validity, authenticity, o rtruth of something purporting to be factual, esp. religion or religions tenets.

Objective - adj. 4. not influenced by personal feelings or prejudice; unbiased (definitions 1 - 3 were the noun versions, i.e. "goals")

Open-minded - adj. 1. having or showing a mind receptive to new ideas or arguments. 2. unprejudiced; unbigoted; impartial.

-Random House Webster's College Dictionary

To be objective and open-minded, one must be willing to accept new ideas, but not at the expense of verification by way of evidence.

I once had the idea that the speed of light could not exceed 3 x 10^8 m / s. I've since revised my thinking after seeing the results of focusing a light pulse through a cesium chamber. I'm not convinced that the light is the same light that entered, but now I've even revised my thoughts on multiverse theory, since this experiment offered a little more validity in that direction as well.

If you do the science right, your experiments will have one of 3 results regarding a hypothesis: 1) it'll prove valid; 2) it'll prove to be wrong; or 3) it'll prove that you might be on to something, but your hypothesis needs more work.

Originally posted by orreman
These men [Shermer & Sagan] have done nothing for UFOlogists or UFOlogy.

On the contrary, they've done an enormous service to "ufology." How can it be possible in any discipline (biology, anthropology, chemistry, etc) to do science without scrutiny? Without someone questioning your methods? Without this check, scientists could (and did many times in the past) say whatever they pleased. Science would be riddled with spurious evidence, wild theories, and blind laws governing their applications.

Shermer and Sagan have done more to push ufology into the realm of science and out of the realm of pseudoscience than you would care to admit. They applied the same expectations on "ufologists" that might be applied to a biologist or an archeologist. The reason "ufologists" don't like it? I suspect it's too much work. It's easier to simply make wild hypotheses and then not do the proper work to prove them.

Pseudoscience offers only explanation by scenario, research by literary interpretation, refusal to revise, appeals to mythology, spurious similarities, casual approaches to evidence, irrefutable hypotheses, and anachronistic thinking. Very often pseudoscience tries to shift the burden of proof to the other side of the argument and theories are claimed legitimate or valid simply because they're "new," "alternative," or "daring" (the Galileo effect).

Xevious

08-29-03, 01:50 AM

originally posted by Skinwalker
Shermer and Sagan have done more to push ufology into the realm of science and out of the realm of pseudoscience than you would care to admit. They applied the same expectations on "ufologists" that might be applied to a biologist or an archeologist. The reason "ufologists" don't like it? I suspect it's too much work. It's easier to simply make wild hypotheses and then not do the proper work to prove them.

I disagree with the argument that UFOlogists don't like science because it is "too much work". It far more has to do with two things. One is that UFOlogy is easily a field in which science fiction and science fact can meld in such a way that the unbelieveable becomes believeable. Since the phenomen as a whole defies any sort of explanation which is air-tight, the imagination has lots of room to play. You might say that that in itself discredits the phenomenon, but I would disagree again. Imagination is one of the most important elements of any intellectual persuit. Just how much imagination does it take when you sit and think about it, to piece togeather an extinct ecosystem in Paleontology? If one stops a moment, one will realize this pattern of thinking is the same as is required by computer programmers, and musicians. In each case, one takes what is known and in essence set in stone, or the rules of the subject (the Paleontologist uses the fossils he has, the programmer the programming language he is useing, the musician useing music theory), and in each and every example, one takes what is known and organizes it in a mannor which creates something which is both functional, useful, and in it's own ways, beautiful. The reason I chose these three examples is that they each also represent varying degrees of liberty one has in creativity.

The Paleontologist is required to satisfy not only the physical evidence he has, but the scrutiny of his peers. This is not only an issue of what evidence he has in his hands, but the additudes of his peers. A Paleontologist who said 20 years ago for example that a specimine of Compsognathus had feathers on it would have been highly controversial indeed, if not ridiculed. (Yes, shuch childish things happen in the ranks of Professional Scientists) The same paleontologist today, making the same claim, would recieve a far warmer review by his peers. Why such a dramatic shift in how one interprits some obscure markings inside of a limestone slab? The reason is that 20 years ago the Dinosaur / Bird hypothesis was not yet recieved by the entire scientific community and his claim would be incredibly controversial. In the 20 years since, we have found not only a second species of the Archaeopterex genus, but we have found small carniverous dinosaurs in China which have clearly defined feathers. Thus, the same obscure limestone slab and claim made in two differnt times would recieve very differnt reactions. In the end, how far into what the paleontoligist is seeing he can creatively reconstruct his fossils depends on his peers reactions.

Programming is somewhat the same, but the key difference is that computers have no such feelings when it comes to "available evidence" because a computer only knows the rules at the beginning, and these do not change. The programmer knows all the rules and dementions involved, and he has to answer to no one to explain them, accept the computer. All the computer cares about is if his code works correctly, and there are literally thousands upon thousands of possible combinations of code he can produce. In Algebra, there are many many formula which can be used to recieve the same results, and the programmer is free to use any of these. This is in contrast to the paleontology example, which will only allow in the end one accepted model to be correct. Does this mean computer programming is any less of a science? No, but only that it's practitioners have far less scrutiny to deal with in how they code their programs. All that matters in the end is the result, not the method used to obtain it.

Music is an even more free enterprise. The only criteria for judging music as good or bad comes from the reaction of those listening to it. Beyond the fact that it is based in sound, there are in the end no set definitions for what exactly music is aside from what has been traditionally observed to be the most pallatable aspects of it from the point of view of the listening audience. So let me ask you again, what is music? I was for 8 years an accomplished Bassoonist, Clarinetist, and later conducting student and I couldn't give you a definitive answer. That is the point. There IS no definitve answer to what music is. Yet, not ONE person on the face of this planet no matter from what culture or region would say music does not exist. So, what is music?

So how does this lecture on creativity relate to UFOlogy? It has to do with the criteria of critical thought and evidence to be applied to the phenomenon. Working under the assumption that some UFO's are extraterrestrial spacecraft from a species which is concealing it's intentions from us, one would expect it to be highly difficult to find definitive physical evidence of the phenomenon. Philosophically any scientist will find this objectionable as they SHOULD! Science works by establishing patterns in available evidence. However, I do have an example of a scientific enterprise which has the same issue, and thus a precidence. It is called flourensics. In flourensics as you know, the goal is to use scientific methodology to determine all that can be factually obtained from a crime scene. However, for this to work the perpetrator of the crime must leave something behind which can be physically measured and observed. A criminal who is mindful
of this is fully capable of destroying evidence which would hint at
his crime, or implicate a differnt individual for the crime, or both. Applying the same thinking to UFOlogy, where they hypothesis demands that the extraterrestrials are of a much more advanced culture and are perhaps intellectually superior to humans, it is really so difficult to think that if an intellectually superior species wanted it's presence to not be known that it would not be known?

Secondly it is as Slim stated: that many hoaxes have tainted the credibility of the whole phenomenon. There have been many hoaxes in science. The key difference is that the hoaxes in science are by and largely swepted under the rug, to be forgotten. After all, no one wants to admit when they have been taken for a fool or worse, no one wants to admit whtn the "stupid" guy turns out to be the one who was right. By contrast, when a UFO hoax comes to light no one forgets it. Somehow, UFOlogy is held to a higher standard than much of mainstream science in this reguard. The only reason being of course, that those objecting to the arguments of UFOlogists find attacking credibility to be far more fruitful than refuting the above mentioned argument of how a superior species could cover it's tracks, or for that matter dealing with UFO cases which defy conventional explanations of any kind.

SkinWalker

08-29-03, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Xevious
Imagination is one of the most important elements of any intellectual persuit. Just how much imagination does it take when you sit and think about it, to piece togeather an extinct ecosystem in Paleontology? ... computer programmers, and musicians. ... The reason I chose these three examples is that they each also represent varying degrees of liberty one has in creativity.

In each of the examples you cited, there is one more commonality that they share. Each postulate is tested, remains testable, and can be used to predict the results of other problems. Even in the case of music, though the "test" is in the audience acceptance of the work. The predictability for "other problems" will be anticipating what an audience might continue to be receptive to.

A better analogy might be a 500-piece puzzle. As you put the puzzle together, you need to have some imagination to see the puzzles and anticipate where the pieces might fall together. But in the end, you can't force a piece to fit where you want it just because it was easier.

Originally posted by Xevious
A Paleontologist who said 20 years ago for example that a specimine of Compsognathus had feathers on it would have been highly controversial indeed, if not ridiculed. (Yes, shuch childish things happen in the ranks of Professional Scientists) The same paleontologist today, making the same claim, would recieve a far warmer review by his peers. Why such a dramatic shift in how one interprits some obscure markings inside of a limestone slab?

Simply put, this theory, while it did undergo some initial ridicule and is still held with some skepticism, withstood scrutiny by peers and provided plausible, testable hypotheses. It also created situations in which predictions could be made, namely more fossil record.

However, I do have an example of a scientific enterprise which has the same issue, and thus a precidence. It is called flourensics. In flourensics as you know, the goal is to use scientific methodology to determine all that can be factually obtained from a crime scene. However, for this to work the perpetrator of the crime must leave something behind which can be physically measured and observed. A criminal who is mindful
of this is fully capable of destroying evidence which would hint at
his crime, or implicate a differnt individual for the crime, or both. [/B][/QUOTE]

So are you saying that forensics is largely ineffective? I would think that there are many criminals who are mindful of getting caught (wear gloves, etc.), but still do. In fact, I know this to be true.

Originally posted by Xevious
Applying the same thinking to UFOlogy, where they hypothesis demands that the extraterrestrials are of a much more advanced culture and are perhaps intellectually superior to humans, it is really so difficult to think that if an intellectually superior species wanted it's presence to not be known that it would not be known?

Which is an example of the irrefutable hypothesis, making the entire study of ufo's a pseudoscientific pursuit and a wast of time. If you can never prove, why bother? If you can prove it, you must do so with the use of scientific method. Proving, however, doesn't imply (in this case) beyond all doubt. In science, proof deals more with probabilities and tenative evidence.

Originally posted by Xevious
Secondly it is as Slim stated: that many hoaxes have tainted the credibility of the whole phenomenon. There have been many hoaxes in science. The key difference is that the hoaxes in science are by and largely swepted under the rug, to be forgotten.

The difference is, these hoaxes were uncovered by peer review. Ufologists should scrutinize themselves mercilessly and uncover the hoaxes from withing to give their method more credibility.

(Q)

08-29-03, 11:52 AM

Orreman states:

I would like to introduce my humble website to this esteemed group and propose ,as modestly as possible, that I have taken a UFO photo that numerous front page articles believe represents the best evidence ever produced for the existence of aliens and UFOs.

While I’ll agree this may be a photo of UFO’s (Unidentified Flying Objects), it is a stretch of the imagination to consider it evidence of aliens.

Where are the aliens? Can you see them in the photo? Are they waving at you out of their windows? Do they even have windows? Which direction are the UFO’s moving? What do the aliens look like?

If you can answer these questions, I’ll give your photo some credibility.

But I think the fact of the matter is that you really, really want to believe these are aliens and have convinced yourself of such.

SkinWalker

08-29-03, 02:04 PM

I was late for a class, so I cut the last response short... here's the rest:

Originally posted by Xevious
By contrast, when a UFO hoax comes to light no one forgets it.

The real problem is that, very often, the people who won't let it drop turn out to be "ufologists." I've seen many ufo claims that have been thoroughly debunked to the point that ufo "researchers" themselves admit that the event was hoaxed, faked, or otherwise explainable re-emerge within the ufo community as if it never underwent scrutiny.

Originally posted by Xevious
Somehow, UFOlogy is held to a higher standard than much of mainstream science in this reguard.

I disagree. Mainstream science holds itself to very rigid and even brutal scrutiny. Hypotheses are tested and published in the peer reviewed journals, of which there are thousands in English alone, in their field (such as Nature -a journal of broad topic, or the Journal of Structural Geology -a more specific title). Once published, they undergo intense scrutiny by other scientists and researchers in that or related fields. If the methodology holds up, and the discussion or conclusion sections are relevant, the paper and it's hypothesis survives. If not, it needs revision or even abandonment.

Originally posted by Xevious
The only reason being of course, that those objecting to the arguments of UFOlogists find attacking credibility to be far more fruitful than refuting the above mentioned argument of how a superior species could cover it's tracks, or for that matter dealing with UFO cases which defy conventional explanations of any kind.

Both of which might make excellent papers, however, to the best of my knowledge, no one has written, "The possible means by which an advanced, extraterrestrial race might avoid detection by indigenous civilization."

I suspect the reason is that, without some pointed and specific evidence, any such paper would be anthropocentric. That is to say, we could only say how Man would accomplish such a feat. So the idea remains in the catagory of irrefutable hypothesis and therefore cannot be sufficiently tested. It doesn't mean that it couldn't be possible, but a hypothesis is useless in scientific method if it doesn't at least have the potential to be falsified. You can't prove it false, therefore it must be true doesn't hold up.

So in getting back to your comment: "UFOlogy is held to a higher standard than much of mainstream science." This is patently false. In fact, the real problem is that ufology is not held to standards as stringent as even the most rudimentary of mainstream sciences. The problems with ufology are many, but include:
Lack of educated researchers
Poor and/or inconsistent implementation of scientific method
Reliance on irrefutable hypotheses
Casual Approach to evidence and evidenciary proceedure
Spurious similarities and correlations
Use of scenario to explain correlations and events
Shifting the burden of proof to other entities (i.e. skeptics, scientists, etc.)
But mainly: Refusal to acknowledge the validity of alternate hypotheses

The latter is important. Ufologists complain endlessly that skeptics are not open-minded. But I believe it is the opposite which is actually true. Skeptics generally don't dismiss the idea of an alien craft as the source of a UFO, but rather suggest the probability of many other, more plausible, explanations that are actually simpler. An alien craft is actually more complex of a hypothesis than ufo pundits wish to admit (perhaps that would be a good thread to start).

But when skeptics (see my definition above) suggest other explanations, often the ufo pundit acts / responds irrationally. He/she may offer ad hominem comments, make broad claims of conspiratorial nature, etc., but, invariably, the alternative explanation(s) are rejected without any testing. Why?

Xevious

08-29-03, 02:38 PM

Ufologists complain endlessly that skeptics are not open-minded. But I believe it is the opposite which is actually true. Skeptics generally don't dismiss the idea of an alien craft as the source of a UFO, but rather suggest the probability of many other, more plausible, explanations that are actually simpler. An alien craft is actually more complex of a hypothesis than ufo pundits wish to admit (perhaps that would be a good thread to start).

But when skeptics (see my definition above) suggest other explanations, often the ufo pundit acts / responds irrationally. He/she may offer ad hominem comments, make broad claims of conspiratorial nature, etc., but, invariably, the alternative explanation(s) are rejected without any testing. Why?

Do you really think that just because one explanation is more "plausible" that you have no burdon of proof to bear? Let's take Orreman's UFO photograph just as an example. Keep in mind that I have already stated in this same thread that he has NOT satisfied the burdon of proof. It was stated by many skeptics that it was a flock of birds. Okay, do you have a close up of one of the odd shapes enlarged and compared to a drawing of a bird shown at a particular angle to show me? No? Okay, do you have a witness who saw the same objects from closer up? Okay, maybe you went to Australia the day after the incident and collected some bird droppings from the site in question. What? No? Oh, then you haven't satisfied the burdon of proof. That isn't my problem, I'm not the one making the claim. I'm just the skeptic at this point considering your explanation and deciding in the end that I cannot verify your findings. Appealing to plausibility my friend, is not the same as satisfying a burdon of proof. Even if the most outlandish, seemingly impossible hypothesis has ONE point of solid evidence in it's favor compared to a far more plausible hypothesis having NONE, it has satisfied more of the burdon of proof argument than the ladder and thus has a higher standing.

Which is an example of the irrefutable hypothesis, making the entire study of ufo's a pseudoscientific pursuit and a wast of time. If you can never prove, why bother? If you can prove it, you must do so with the use of scientific method. Proving, however, doesn't imply (in this case) beyond all doubt. In science, proof deals more with probabilities and tenative evidence.

I should remind you again of my argument in flourensics. In our criminal justice system, circumstancial evidence can be just as useful. No, flourinsics is not a fruitless venture; many times as many criminals are now brought to justice than there were before thanks to the efforts of this tireless group of scientific defectives. Indeed, the Jack the Ripper case has been cracked by flourensic science. So what do we do when the evidence has been destroyed or there is little to none? The Police take what we know (that some kind of event happened) and then we mark it in a big case file marked UNSOLVED. Then, we write what we do know and wait for another incident to occur, or for more details to happen.

I'm out of time, but I have responses for the points of lack of qualified scientists, shifting the burdon of proof, ect.

SkinWalker

08-29-03, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Xevious
Do you really think that just because one explanation is more "plausible" that you have no burdon of proof to bear? ... Even if the most outlandish, seemingly impossible hypothesis has ONE point of solid evidence in it's favor compared to a far more plausible hypothesis having NONE, it has satisfied more of the burdon of proof argument than the ladder and thus has a higher standing.

Just to be sure, let's determine what we agree to be the characteristics of a good hypothesis. To be considered a "good" hypothesis, scientific method dictates that it must be testable, falsifiable, parsimonious, and fruitful.

Parsimonious refers to simplicity, and fruitful refers to the hypothesis' ability to provide new questions for further study.

A good hypothesis must also offer the ability to predict new observations.

With Orreman's photo, we should be able to find similarities in other photographs, which he states and finds. Unfortunately, the opposite must also hold true. We must also not be able to find similarities in photographs of known objects such as birds. Orreman didn't use this control in his methodology, so the hypothesis is flawed.

Originally posted by Xevious
I should remind you again of my argument in flourensics. In our criminal justice system, circumstancial evidence can be just as useful. No, flourinsics is not a fruitless venture; many times as many criminals are now brought to justice than there were before thanks to the efforts of this tireless group of scientific defectives.

Forensic science is still science. Even in court, one is not dealing with absolutes in discussing the truth. There is no possible way to be 100% certain of an event. One can only show probabilities. It is up to the jury and the judge to determine if the probabilities are in favor of the plantiff or defendent.

It is up to forensics specialists to present the evidence as they find it. Not to determine what happened. Even in forensics, they try to stay away from "scenarios" and instead just interpret specific evidence. For instance, a blood spatter is consistent with a particular type of blunt trauma; gun shot residue on a hand is consistent with that found on someone who has recently fired a handgun; a tire tread is consistent with the make/model of suspect's vehicle.

In each of these cases, the forensic specialist doesn't state that the suspect committed, or even probably committed, the crime charged. The forensic specialist can only say "the evidence is consistent with...," "the evidence was collected at....," etc.

In the case of ufo's, evidence cannot be said to be consistent with alien craft, consistent with alien abduction, consistent with paranormal events, etc., because none of these events have been scientifically documented. Therefore, the evidence must be talked about what it is not or cannot be. So when skeptics ask, "why can't this photo be of a flock of birds? Why can't the spike be the wing of another bird, concealed behind the one in the foreground with exception to the wing, which is visible as a spike?" what they are really doing is looking for plausible explanations in the absence of implausible.

What will create a plausible explanation in favor of ufo's being something more than merely unidentified but normal phenomena would be a definitive piece of evidence that doesn't lend itself to these questions. Photographs might not be enough, but clear, properly exposed photographs of an object would be interesting. Anecdotes will not be enough. An artifact will be needed.

But that won't happen according to ufologists. These 'visitors' are adept at being undetected. Its the purple dragon scenario.

Believe it or not, I'm a friend of the ufo researcher. I think there is definately something worth investigating. It might pan out to be something of substance or it might not. But the real problem lies in the lack of seriousness and credibility that "ufology" has earned. I say "earned" because of reasons that should be obvious by now. One look at the spurious claims, hoaxes, and cults associated with it will give you an idea.

Skeptics like me (and I'm not really that serious about the whole issue) or rather, skeptics much better than me, could help raise the bar a bit for ufologist by causing enough of them to get tired of the counter-arguments and do some real research.

An example of real research can be found at http://www.hessdalen.org/news/

moementum7

08-29-03, 09:06 PM

Wow.
You guys must have some serious fundamental beleifs based on an axis to whether or not there is or is not the reality of other life existing on or near our little ol' planet.
Am I wrong?
I know how much time,thought and energy you guys are putting into your thoughts and responses.
In no way is this a negative comment Skins,you know I love yah!
But I couldn't imagine spending so much time on something that I was only trying to prove didn't exist.
What are you gaining or holding onto by such expert skepticism if I may ask?
I am seriously curious.
Please,please,please do not take this as anything bad.
Your friend....me.:)

SkinWalker

08-29-03, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by moementum7
But I couldn't imagine spending so much time on something that I was only trying to prove didn't exist.

I don't spend much time on it really. Most of the things I type are right off the top of my head (and it shows occasionally ;) ). I'm a fast typist as well.

But I never attempted to prove anything didn't exist. My only contention is that efforts to prove that specific things did exist do not meet the minimum standards of science and that too many people accept the fantasies of others at face value without thinking critically.

Originally posted by moementum7
What are you gaining or holding onto by such expert skepticism if I may ask?
I am seriously curious.

Think about this: if the general public is willing to believe unfounded, pseudoscientific claims without critical thinking, won't they also be willing to accept the claims of a government or a politician without demanding logical proof? Some say this is an effect we have already seen. Illogical acceptance of unfounded ideas isn't just a perview of pseudoscience.... our freedoms could be at risk if people are willing to believe without critical, reasoned thought.

Originally posted by moementum7
Please,please,please do not take this as anything bad.
Your friend....me.:)

I thought it was a valid question... I've sat in the middle of one of my rants thinking the same thing <grin>.... why the hell do I bother? But if I can convince the lurker who doesn't post but reads without a strong opinion on one side or the other... then it's worth it.

That, and I also sort of committed myself when I pissed Slim off :) I had to prove I wasn't a troll.

As a final thought, it's also a good way to organize thoughts on subjects when you debate such things on internet forums...

Xevious

08-29-03, 10:42 PM

Skinwalker, I'll hand you a lot of what you've said. But, by now I hope you have realized that I'm not a blind believer. Even if my thinking might be flawed in your mind on some points, you and I both believe in applying the scientific method. Even if we disagree on some theoretetical principals, in practice if you've been on this forum long enough you will know that I've ended up on the same page as the skeptics when UFO photos have been posted time and time again.

Thanks for posting - keep at it.

2inquisitive

08-29-03, 11:03 PM

SkinWalker, there are several organizations proposing scientific
methods for the study of extraterrestrial probes (UFOs) now in
existence. One is SETV. They have developed a model to follow,
starting with a null hypothesis:

The SETV Hypothesis states:

Technologically advanced extraterrestrial civilizations have deployed interstellar exploratory probes and there is a zero probability that any functioning probes have reached our solar system and are detectable using exising terrestrial technologies.
_____________________________________________
The SETV model is not meant to directly prove the ETI probes exist. It has been devised to show indirectly, via hard data, that the converse is false thereby refuting the SETV null hypothesis.
_______________________________________________

SETV advocates building observational instruments in four phases,
used to collect unambiguous data that can be used to aid in the
falsification of the above null hypothesis. Is that more like what
you are looking for? An overview of the project can be found at:
http://www.setv.org/setv-xpmnt.html

SkinWalker

08-29-03, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Xevious
But, by now I hope you have realized that I'm not a blind believer. Even if my thinking might be flawed in your mind on some points, you and I both believe in applying the scientific method.

On the contrary, I've found a lot of your posts refreshing... I see obvious bias from you toward the pro- side of somethings, just as you doubtless see some of my obvious bias toward the con- side. But, nevertheless, I think you look at things with a more skeptical eye than most.

I look forward to seeing more of your posts! :cool:

SkinWalker

08-29-03, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by 2inquisitive
One is SETV. They have developed a model to follow,
starting with a null hypothesis:

I've seen the SETV investigations before... just this year, in fact, though I haven't had the chance to look deeper into their work. I was impressed with the serious nature of what I saw, though.

Thanks for the link... I'll have to take a closer look at it this weekend.

orreman

08-30-03, 11:16 PM

Slim was commenting about the consequence of failing to honestly examine UFO evidence and the answer is important to all. If the masses were to be swayed against the validity of medium/channelers like John Edwards , Praage and Fitzpatrick or great new age authors like Rampa, Castanada or Roberts then they will not believe the message that these important individuals bring to humanity. Knowing what awaits you on the other side can have a major impact on your atitude towards others as well as directly effect your immediate future.. For example metaphysics reveals that not only do we reincarnate but we often do it with the same individuals from the former life only the roles may be reversed to correct what ever characteristics the soul needs to work on. Belief in this "Unknown Reality" would bond even closer individuals in a group with a new quest for spiritual perfection ,if such a thing exists. Non belief has resulted in the terrible suicides of family members in the headlines and killings in the workplace. Would the suicide bomber really blow up the bus if he knew the 12 year old girl in the fourth row was his reincarnated grandfather working out his own karma from this continuing ancient rivalry.

As for the predictably lame attempt to discredit John Edwards in The "Septic" I mean "Skeptic" magazine there is a perfectly good reason that "He (Edwards) is so hot that his television show is about to make the jump to network television"-Michael Shermer. Thats because tens of millions of rational humans are quite capable for themselves to judge who is "Ludicrous" and what represents acceptable evidence of contact from the other side. To even suggest that Edwards bothers to follow what is said in pre-production, shows how badly these misguided skeptics are searching for anything to disprove what is obviously a geniune phenomena. This isnt the preacher who got caught with the receiver in his ear duping his followers out of their hard earned pay. They must not have seen the DOZENS of times that information gleaned from his readings could only be confirmed by telephone calls to relatives in distant areas of the nation.

Speaking of confirmation , in my as yet unpublished book "The Last in Line" mentioned in the San Diego Edition of the L.A.Times, I write about how right after my father"Crossed Over" when I was thirteen in 1971, our phone kept mysteriously ringing with no one on the other end. I remember mom resorting to blasting Dads police whistle into the receiver to no avail. Years later in my first bachelor pad someone kept ringing my doorbell but no one would be there. One time I opened the door so fast after it rang that no human could possibly have done it. As I stood there perplexed I suddenly remembered what I had recently read in the "Seth" material about how the spirit world can sometimes contact us through electromagnetic means. Thats when I realized in a flash of intuition that is was dad on the phone years ago and it was pop who was probably standing right in front of me in his spiritual guise and I tearfully acknowledged his presence and message which was that he survived. The doorball pranks stopped after that night.

So of course it was no surprise to hear John Edwards claim the very same thing on his program a decade later. It saddens me to read Shermer write" the reasons these so-called mediums are unethical and dangerous is that they are not helping anyone in what they are doing". AS IF HE IS. How many suicides has John averted by exposing the damage it creates for everyone in the family group. The one talking "twaddle" and who is clearly insulting the intelligence of humanity is Shermer and those like him who "Close their eyes and ignore the evidence"-Dr Robert Schock

Which brings us to Skin Walker and his claim that "The entire study of UFOs is a pseudoscientific pursuit and a waste of time". Taking our civilization into the its next phase, planetary contact and trade ,is certainly not a waste of time. Skin reminds me of Dr. Zahi Highass ,excuse me Hawass (director of Giza pyramid) who cannot accept clear evidence presented by Schock (Boston University) and Michael Anthony West that the Sphinx is thousands of years older than previously thought . "Its not good to argue with them then this theory will die"-Hawass To SkinWalkers credit he does bring an important viewpoint to this discussion although his lack of vision is disturbing. For example you claim my crop circle theory is "Ludicrous" and yet we know the hydrogen molecule emits a signal visable under a microscope and we saw in the movie"The Secret Life Of Plants" how Cleave Backster (Backster Research in San Diego) proved in a scientific experiment in the sixties how a plant,hooked up to a polygraph, successfully received the dying screams of go schrimp poured by a timer into boiling water. To seal the deal on my hypotheses we have the famous Seven second video that shows a crop circle being made in real time by the stalks being laid down as streaking orbs pass overhead.

Concerning my UFO photo, I did return 2 weeks later and photographed birds and planes in the same relative area that the objects were in. After enlarging the prints in my Omega C760 Color enlarger it was obvious that my UFO photo had ABSOLUTELY no resemblence to any known objects.

Rememeber to communicate, validate and appreciate-John Edwards

SkinWalker

09-06-03, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by orreman
Which brings us to Skin Walker and his claim that "The entire study of UFOs is a pseudoscientific pursuit and a waste of time". Taking our civilization into the its next phase, planetary contact and trade ,is certainly not a waste of time.

No. I agree. However, I think hoping that a mythological and greatly hoaxed phenomenon will do it for us is an utter waste.

Originally posted by orreman
Skin reminds me of Dr. Zahi Highass ,excuse me Hawass (director of Giza pyramid) who cannot accept clear evidence presented by Schock (Boston University) and Michael Anthony West that the Sphinx is thousands of years older than previously thought .

That's because they are full of shit. I've read Shock and West's ideas and they don't add up. Why don't you tell us all why you give their claims credibility? What specific points does Shock make that suggests an older age? The degradation pattern seen on the limestone of the Sphinx's body and enclosure walls are consistent with a Fourth Dynasty date for this monument. So what reason is there to doubt that the Sphinx was carved as part of king Khafre's funerary complex?

Originally posted by orreman
To SkinWalkers credit he does bring an important viewpoint to this discussion although his lack of vision is disturbing.

Don't confuse critical thinking skills and a little bit of "bullshit detection" with "lack of vision." :)

Originally posted by orreman
For example you claim my crop circle theory is "Ludicrous" and yet we know the hydrogen molecule emits a signal visable under a microscope

Really? I'm not a botanist... so perhaps you could cite a reference that I can look up to read about this effect. Do other elements do the same thing? Does it occur only in diatomic molecules? In other words, can it occur with a single hydrogen or must it be a molecule? What is this signal? What wavelength?

Originally posted by orreman
and we saw in the movie"The Secret Life Of Plants" how Cleave Backster (Backster Research in San Diego) proved in a scientific experiment in the sixties how a plant,hooked up to a polygraph, successfully received the dying screams of go schrimp poured by a timer into boiling water.

These sloppy experiments were conducted by Cleve Backster and he published his research in the International Journal of Parapsychology under the title of Evidence of a Primary Perception in Plant Life vol. 10, no. 4, Winter 1968, pp. 329-348. Not exactly the most reputable journal of science... since they apparently accept just about anything that's tossed their way in pseudoscience and poor methodology.

Backster's claims were refuted by Horowitz, Lewis, and Gasteiger (1975), who demonstrated that Backster had not used proper controls in doing his study. When controls were used, no detection of plant reaction to thoughts or threats could be found. These researchers found that the cause of the polygraph contours could have been due to a number of factors, including static electricity, movement in the room, changes in humidity, etc.

Horowitz, K. A., D.C. Lewis, and E. L. Gasteiger. 1975. Plant primary perception. Science 189: 478-480.

Originally posted by orreman
Rememeber to communicate, validate and appreciate-John Edwards

Yeah.. right. You've spouted enough false information, its hard to tell what you have to say that might be worthwhile.

orreman

09-06-03, 08:12 PM

Your definition of "false information" windwalker cannot explain how numerous professional writers, photographers, editors and producers that have written thousands of words on my photo and theorys including 3 front page features. Are they disqualified like everyone else because they dont meet your rigid expectations of extensive scientific investigation. I dont think so. In fact with their reputations on the line many of them, aftering viewing the evidence in person, went farther out on a limb than I expected.

When the ancient Phrygian city of Troy was discovered it proved to everyone that what was once considered a myth (Trojan Wars) can indeed prove to be reality and so it will be for humankind VERY soon when one day, after contact we will look back and say "Yes they not only exist but they had Man's best interest in mind the whole time as we rid ourselves of disease, poverty, starvation and even death.

Revelations 21:1 New Heavens and New Earth. "Then I saw a new heavens and I saw a new earth. The former heavens and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no longer. I also saw a new Jerusalem, the holy city, coming down out of heaven from God, beautiful as a bride prepared to meet her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne cry out; "This is God's dwelling among men. He shall dwell with them and they shall be his people and he shall be their God who is always with them. He shall wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, crying out or in pain, for the former world has passed away". The One who sat on the throne said to me."See, I make all things new!"Then he said,"Write these matters down, for the words are trustworthy and true!".

SkinWalker

09-07-03, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by orreman
Your definition of "false information" godwalker cannot explain how numerous professional writers, photographers, editors and producers that have written thousands of words on my photo and theorys including 3 front page features.

Perhaps they're gullible. Perhaps they know a story that will "sell." I'm tempted to remind you that "just because it's in print, doesn't make it true," but then I realized that you appear to believe a lot of stuff you read without question.

Originally posted by orreman
When the ancient Phrygian city of Troy was discovered it proved to everyone that what was once considered a myth (Trojan Wars) can indeed prove to be reality

If it were considered a myth, (and I don't believe it was considered as such any more than other events of early-historical record) it was one with much historical precedent. Homer's Iliad was but one of many written records of Troy and the Trojan wars. Many written records existed that supported the events in both fiction and non-fiction. In fact, Schliemann and Calvert's discovery in 1871 was a precursor for some of the modern archeological methodology. A methodology which has developed into a approach that follows a very strict scientific method.

Originally posted by orreman
and so it will be for humankind VERY soon when one day, after contact we will look back and say "Yes they not only exist but they had Man's best interest in mind the whole time as we rid ourselves of disease, poverty, starvation and even death.

Perhaps you are right. There just isn't enough evidence to support this hypothesis. So it remains a modern mythology.

Originally posted by orreman
Revelations 21:1 New Heavens and New Earth.

More mythology.

Your little rants and pseudonymic modifications don't dispell the fact that much of what you've stated here in this thread as fact actually hasn't panned out. Much of what you've told us is based on easily rebuked nonsense. I'm inclined to believe that there is something in all your information that is worthwile... I just don't trust you enough to accept any at face value.

Edgar Cayce was a fraud. Castenada was a poor excuse of a scientist turned sensationalist-for-hire. John Edwards continues to take advantage of hoping, grieving people willing to boost his ratings. The sphinx is not older than the Fourth Dynasty. And Cleve Backster appears to be incompetent due to his poor methodology and mentally unbalanced because of his wild hypothesis.

So what about the "signal" transmitted by hydrogen molecules? I'm curious for more information.

orreman

09-08-03, 03:57 AM

While I research for more info on the hydrogen molecules signal I recall Roberts writings seen on my CropCircleRevealed page where she(Seth)claims that "Molecular structures send out their own messages and unless you are tuned in to perceive them, they may be interpreted as static or meaningless noise". She continues to say that" molecules, as minute as they may be, carry their burden of consciousness" which may explain how aliens can glide through the air and walls and how they affect the wheat in crop circles. Of course we already know WindWalker has dismissed unfairly this writer and others who are currently playing a major role in God's preparation for the "New Earth".

Tonights History Channel episode of "The Bible Code" indicates a major earthquake in Los Angeles in 2010 and a asteroid impact in 2012 the same year the Mayans predicted the end of this world. Claiming, as you undoubtable will, that this Bible code is also "easily rebuked nonsense" you are the one "Mentally Unbalanced" by ignoring the BIG picture and the many contributors who are helping mankind understand unknown realities. Your missing still the point of John Edwards show as hundreds of non-actors have clearly gotten closure and crept out of the depths of grief and loss.

Over a decade ago a TV program showed hydrogen molecules sparking under an electron microscope. At least thats what I thought I saw. It may have been"Rutherford's "Gun" (atom smasher) where "When nitrogen gas was introduced the sparks resumed. Rutherford concluded that the alpha particles had collided with the nitrogen atoms, creating charged hydrogen atoms (protons), which were causing the sparks".

Dr Royal Rife of Point Loma in the thirties invented the multiwave oscilater, a device that apparantly successfully destroyed diseased cells by bombarding the molecules with a light wave spectrum that could be adjusted to each disease. I have numerous articles from his time "Celebrating the End of Disease". Unfortunately the major drug companies would have been put out of business so Rifes historic discovery was shelved. This is the kind of hypocrisy that has held mankind back much like SkinWalkers wholesale rejection of Metaphysics and the promise of a better way for humanity that it represents.

SkinWalker

09-08-03, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by orreman
"Molecular structures send out their own messages and unless you are tuned in to perceive them, they may be interpreted as static or meaningless noise".

How does one calibrate oneself so that he/she is "tuned" to "persceive them?"

Originally posted by orreman
"She continues to say that" molecules, as minute as they may be, carry their burden of consciousness"

What does she define as consciousness? Is she suggesting that hydrogen is sentient? What about the other elements of the periodic table? How about the 10^28 or so atoms in the average human body? Are they sentient as well (or at least have a consciousness)? If just hydrogen, then I should point out many, if not most of these atoms are H.

Originally posted by orreman
"which may explain how aliens can glide through the air and walls and how they affect the wheat in crop circles.

Or it may just explain the delusions of one person who hasn't any physical evidence but relies on fantasy for explanation. This has been the failing of man probably since before standing upright.

Originally posted by orreman
"Of course we already know WindWalker has dismissed unfairly this writer and others who are currently playing a major role in God's preparation for the "New Earth".

At least you're more subtle than other "believers," but you still resort to ad hominem remarks rather than stick with addressing the issues. This is a commonality that I notice in pseudoscience buffs and "believers."

As to the "fairness" I've provided, I'd say I was more than fair. I've attempted to address each point of evidence that I can by providing counter evidence. Regardless of the veracity of the evidence, you stick to what you've already made you mind up about. My position can be changed merely by providing sufficient evidence. I've seen evidence that a person can convince an audience that he is speaking to their dead relatives. I've not seen evidence from John Edwards that he is nothing more than a fast talker and decent Cold Reader. In fact, I've read the counter arguments to his methods, which he refuses to address. It is possible that Edwards truly speaks to the dead, but my final question about him goes unanswered: why not speak with someone of fame and get information that could only have come from them? Jimmy Hoffa, famous poets & writers, Einstein... etc.

Originally posted by orreman
"Tonights History Channel episode of "The Bible Code"

Another thoroughly debunked hoax. As you so accurately predicted I would say. (perhaps you should have your own show?)

Originally posted by orreman
"indicates a major earthquake in Los Angeles in 2010 and a asteroid impact in 2012

Let me ask you this: in the year 2013, will you log on and let us know if you still believe in this stuff?

Originally posted by orreman
"you are the one "Mentally Unbalanced" by ignoring the BIG picture and the many contributors who are helping mankind understand unknown realities.

If any of these "contributors" had any credibility or veracity in their claims, I'm sure more people would listen.

Originally posted by orreman
"Your missing still the point of John Edwards show as hundreds of non-actors have clearly gotten closure and crept out of the depths of grief and loss.

Yeah? I'd like to see a case study done of each of these people to see if they really have "gotten closure." I'd also like to see the same independent researcher interview the "non-actors" that didn't make the final cut. IT'S TELEVISION! THEY ONLY SHOW THE STUFF THEY WANT!

Originally posted by orreman
"Over a decade ago a TV program showed hydrogen molecules sparking under an electron microscope. At least thats what I thought I saw. It may have been"Rutherford's "Gun" (atom smasher) where "When nitrogen gas was introduced the sparks resumed. Rutherford concluded that the alpha particles had collided with the nitrogen atoms, creating charged hydrogen atoms (protons), which were causing the sparks".

What you're describing sounds like the Geiger-Marsden alpha particle experiment. This is where a thin gold foil was bombarded with a beam of alpha particles. Around the chamber (it was in a vacuum) were zinc sulphide screens set up to detect the particles, which emitted "flashes" of light as they impacted. Hydrogen wasn't specifically tested, though the alpha particles may been from an H atom, I'm not sure about that part of the experiment. But the "Rutherford atom" was thought to explain this. Rutherford died in 1937, so I doubt it was he you saw on TV. Unless it was on John Edwards.

Originally posted by orreman
"Dr Royal Rife of Point Loma in the thirties invented the multiwave oscilater, a device that apparantly successfully destroyed diseased cells by bombarding the molecules with a light wave spectrum that could be adjusted to each disease.

This would be classic pseudoscience.

orreman

09-10-03, 07:19 PM

To answer your question SkinWalker about consciousness in molecules I'll first quote from the greatest source for truth in "pseudoscience" the Seth material as seen on my crop circle page; "atoms and molecules, minute as they may appear to you, also carry their burden of consciousness and responsibility. yet there is a portion of consciousness that can joyfully perceive in a manner that is not dictated by its nature; it can playfully perceive as a creative aspect of its being, without responsibility. in one manner of speaking the very air about you sings with its own joyfull consciousness. It does not know the same kind of burden of consciousness that often oppresses you. You are so frightened of death, in your terms, that you dare not turn your consciousness off for one second; for you fear that if you do, indeed, who will be there to turn it back on again?".

Now what was that about the air "singing"

Todays "Whats New" Netscape headline "PERFECT B-FLAT NOTE COMING FROM SPACE" Outer Space is singing in the form of a perfect B-flat note. A big black hole from the Perseus Cluster of galaxies located some 250 million light-years from Earth has been humming it for billions of years reports Reuters of new finding from NASA's orbiting Chandra X-Ray Observatory...The sound is 57 octaves below middle C compared to a piano that has 7 octaves. "The SINGING black hole is the ultimate bass".

June 23 1970 Seth, who is the acclaimed non-physical teacher who spoke through the late prolific writer Jane Roberts while she was in a trance, continues ; " True spirituality is a thing of joy and of the earth, and has nothing to do with fake adult dignity. it has nothing to do with long words and sorrowful faces. It HAS to do with the dance of consciousness that is within you, and with the sense of spiritual adventure that is within your hearts. It is not dependent on your youth, it is not dependent upon your body. It rings and sings through the universe, and your entire personality. The vitality of the universe is creativity and joy and love, and THAT is spirituality".

Seth must have had SkinWalker in mind when he said this; "In basic terms, civilization is dependent upon spontaneity and fulfillment of the individual. Your civilization is in sad straits. Not because you have allowed spontaneity or fulfillment to individuals, but because you have denied it, and because your institutions are based upon that premise".

SkinWalker, you have no evidence of"veracity" I do, and if 2013 rolls around I'll tell you the same thing I told my friends when the earth didnt flip on 5/5/2000 sooner or later our earth with change as drastically as the abductee was shown with "trees and earth flying up into the atmosphere". So we humans had better get our acts togeather.

SkinWalker

09-10-03, 11:33 PM

It's just too bad we can't wake up society to our self-destructive ways (btw, I am not being sarcastic) and possible doom without using the paranormal and pseudoscience.

Your underlying message about spirituality and the need for a societal epiphany rings true. I just don't think one needs to get it from a trance, alien abduction, or translating the complex math of crop circles.

We should be able to get it by critically reasoning and thinking about issues of society, politics, economics, and status. Instead, humans appear to be doomed to blindly following whatever light shines the brightest at any given moment... like moths to candles. Too many of us accept without question the voices of authority, spiritiuality, or science without a thought that they might be pseudoauthoritarian, pseudospiritual, and pseudoscientific. We disregard the notion that we might be unwilling pillars of someone else's platform of status.

As I said, your message has a ring of truth... it just seems clouded by too many flawed sources.

But then, I suppose there are those that would argue "what does the source matter if the message is true?"

orreman

09-14-03, 01:21 AM

To this day SkinWalker I question why a non-professional struggling artist would be the one to stumble upon these patterns. Maybe it was precisely because I wasnt restrained by traditional rational thinking that I was even able to conceive that the dots in the background of my scenic photo could possible be craft from outer space. You, along with a million others would have missed it completely(probably) and lost a golden opportunity to present evidence of UFOs to a skeptical but yearning populace.

Speaking of evidence this past Tuesday 9/9/03 the SciFi Channel aired "UFOs,The Best Evidence Ever Caught on Tape2" hosted by Jonathon Frakes. At one point UFO videographer Chris Miller captured a"Cluster"of orbs in a daylight video that looked remarkable like my own "Formation". Navel intelligence"had no idea what the objects were". The program also showed the same objects in Israel and Mexico. Does this prove my objects are authentic UFOs, no, but it ads support. The NASA UFO footage was the most amazing and convincing evidence that we are not alone with right angle turns that would have killed a human.

The paranormal will one day soon be the Very Normal as the pseudo is dropped from a very legitimate science that will eventually meet even SkinWalkers rigid requirements. Like moths to candles mankind will indeed be drawn to the shining light of truth that has many sources that all lead to a very certain conclusion; 1) Mankind is heading for Direct Contact with Aliens 2) "They" are closer to "Home" than we are and represent the best choice for our future.

The only"platform of status" I'm seeking is for a large contingent of humans to be chosen to survive the drastic Earth Changes that are nearly upon us (northridge earthquake yesterday) and the thoughts and actions of everyone is being viewed by unseen eyes wether you believe it or not. Maybe those"Rods" are emissaries from God. They were even captured on tape near my residence by KFMB 8 CBS by reporter Denise Myamoto.

Politics and economics are what got us in trouble in the first place. Money will be replaced by free trade not just between nations but planets as greed and corruption will be replaced by abundance and the end of disease and misery. This "Fantasy" will one day be ours.

Freedom lies In Being Bold.

moving

09-15-03, 09:38 PM

Did anyone see David Sereda’s “EVIDENCE the case for NASA UFOs”
I saw this movie, it’s really drawn out but there’s a lot of NASA footage with really weird stuff in it that NASA doesn’t explain very well.
http://www.ufonasa.com

orreman

09-17-03, 01:08 AM

Thanks for the tip "moving" , that site has a great links page as well as being quite informative. Im going to e-mail them ( David Serada and Dan Aykroyd) and let them know what I've done with a NASA photo of a UFO (Astronaut James McDivitt) and see if they want to swap links. I'll thank you again later if something comes of it.

orreman

09-20-03, 11:31 PM

"PARAPSYCHOLOGISTS MORE RIGOROUS IN TESTING THEORIES"
By Robert Matthews "New Scientist"

"Parapsychology, widely dismissed as a sloppy pseudoscience, makes far more use of rigorous experimental methods than other scientfic disciplines, according to a study of"blind methodology in research.
Blind techniques were originally designed to stop investigators in clinical trials for possible new medicines or therapies from affecting the outcome of their experiments. "Blinding" prevents them from knowing wether a patient has been given the drug or a placebo and from modifying their observations accordingly.
Scientists in other fields face a similar temptation to tweak their data, wether deliberately or subconsciously, yet according to an analysis of more than 1000 scientific papers, most researchers seem to believe they are immune to such foibles.
The problem is more acute in the "hard"sciences of physics and chemistry, where not one paper surveyed used blind methods.
The surveyed papers were published in leading journals such as Nature, the Journal of the American Chemical Society, Cell and the Journal of Applied Physics. By far the highest proportion of papers with blind methods appeared in the journals favored by parapsychologists-the Journal of the Society for Physical Research and the Journal of Parapsychology.
The study, to be published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration, comes from Rupert Sheldrake, the London based biologist who has become a controversial figure for his unorthodox scientific beliefs and interest in "fringe"areas.
"Most hard scientists take it for granted that blind techniques are unnessasary in their own field," Sheldrake said. "Parapsychologists, on the other hand, have been constantly subjected to intense scrutiny by skeptics, and this has made them more rigorous."
Physicists and chemists, for example, show no signs of tightening up their methods,Sheldrake found. In a survey of 23 British university physics and chemistry departments, he found only one that taught its students even the basic techniques involved.
One chemist summed up his attitude to blind methods by saying science was hard enough as it is, without making it worse by not knowing what your working on."

Article appeared in the San Diego Union Tribune March 4th 1998

Readers of this thread need to keep this article in mind when individuals in this forum ignorently attempt to discredit Parapsychology and its leading authors.

SkinWalker

09-20-03, 11:40 PM

The criticisms of "parapsychology" research might include blind testing failures, but the central argument, and by far the most significant, is the lack of proper control methods.

Control methods are widely used in the hard sciences (chemistry, physics, et al), as opposed to "blind" methods, which are not (as the article pointed out) as prevalent.

In a science, such as chemistry, it is important to have a null comparisson (or alternate reactions) to compare the hypothesized reaction with in order to look for significance.

This would easily apply to so-called parapsychology studies as well.

Crushing Belial

09-28-03, 04:00 PM

How about this picture? some say it's a digital fake but i have enhanced it and see no signs of digital droped images.

Persol

09-28-03, 04:06 PM

Lol, or 2 plastic dolls taped to the fence:)

Crushing Belial

09-28-03, 04:11 PM

O.K. how about this one?

Persol

09-28-03, 04:21 PM

Wow, now it's taped to a tree.

We'll have to add it to the list:
http://www.maxpages.com/loveme3/Uses_For_Duck_Tape

Even funnier because the first one tries to make them appear life sized. But the second ruins it because of the size of the tree. Unless they are magical shrinking duct tape aliens.

Crushing Belial

09-28-03, 05:48 PM

Very good you have a great eye for frauds.

spookz

09-28-03, 05:54 PM

belial
youse the man!

Persol

09-28-03, 05:56 PM

So did you make those, or find them on the net?

Crushing Belial

09-28-03, 06:30 PM

No i'm a ufologest i wouldn't wast my time trying to pass off disinformation.

Persol

09-28-03, 06:34 PM

Wasn't sure if you were trying to prove a point.

Where did the photos come from then?

spookz

09-28-03, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Crushing Belial
No i'm a ufologest i wouldn't wast my time trying to pass off disinformation.

whats that? what do you waste your time on? is this accurate?.......

Originally posted by Crushing Belial
I don't fear Aliens the reason i think they are of the demonic nature is because of my research, i have a computer dedicated to it personal stories of abductions, Home videos, videos from nasa missions pictures of ufo's and aliens, not cheesey ones and i'm matching ancient and modern day descriptions i there is a link to the past with the ancient Sumerians,The Bible,Medieval period and now. Why are they sneaking around? they seem to have an interest in political control and the military industrial complex, i don't think that they are all evil, i belive angels visit in some of the same ways they are extraterestrials who are extra-dimensional that can take different forms spiritual, apparition, and in flesh.

aliens are demonic? you are christian? post crap in the religion forum

Persol

09-28-03, 06:51 PM

My question is, why do you believe aliens have visited? What is your proof?

spookz

09-28-03, 07:04 PM

http://www.elfs.com/Agifs/ufobar.gif

Persol

09-28-03, 07:04 PM

bouncing demons at that.

Well at least it's a high-res picture:D

Persol

09-28-03, 08:00 PM

Here's some evidence. Big rocks attack from space.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3146692.stm

orreman

09-30-03, 02:54 AM

If you believe metaphysics and I do. aliens are working for a higher authority and have permission to create a hybred race of human/alien (which is their purpose behind abductions) in preparation for that rapidly approaching day of contact when the survivors of the rapture,(or whatever) which UFOs undoubtable will play a major role, will need to be re-educated . Whoever survives will begin a glorious phase of human evolution as our militaries are converted to peace-seeking away-teams to other planets as the "In-Betweens" teach us the technology to venture to other inhabited planets.

So while aliens are not demonic, Crushing Belial, some of them have less compassion for mankind than other off-worlders and dont exactly tuck their abductees back into bed the way the compasionate ones do. Their very public display of power when they shut down the nuclear silos in America years ago clearly shows their intention of promoting mankinds survival especially since they are aware (Akasic Records) that weve already blown ourselves up before.

There is, apparantly however , a "Hades Condition" that metaphysics describes as an invisable enviroment surrounding our planet that anyone astral planeing must make it through. Numerous ancient rock paintings in the Southwest depict monsters and demons barking at individuals climbing a seven knotted rope through this REAL danger zone. Hopefully these unhappy souls will one day walk into the light.

The reason we believe aliens visited Persol is because our ancient ancestors told us they did. For example, look at the ancient hiroglyphics in this Egytian tomb in Abydos;
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/3703/update18.html
Clearly represented is future technology that only aliens would have had knowledge of.

If you would like to see how ancient humans depicted aliens after seeing them dont miss my "Ancient Aliens page
http://www.orreman7.com/AncientAliens.html

Spookz my girlfriend and I loved your "Flying Saucer"