Doing the belief survey thread, I came across an interesting position of my own.

I believe that the opposite ends of the political spectrum are the only options that truly work. Not democracy, monarchy, etc. Anarchy and communism (totalitarianism) work in the right conditions. If humans were pure and not corrupted by current and previous governments, then anarchy would work because humans would essentially "govern" themselves.

Communism, the closest thing to the opposite end of the spectrum, is also a perfect government. In it, everyone contributes and everyone gains. It's just that in its previous institutions, the military has been too harshly implemented. In a true communist government, all people would comply, and it would closely resemble early Socialist France, which had few problems. Or New-Deal era- America. Take your pick.

Any points to be made in response to these? What do you see as the perfect form of government?

Patriot

I'd pick anarchy over communism any day. But the best we can come up with for now? A federal republic, implemented in a libertarian way.

Dictatorship

There. I said it.
Dee Cee

Our current form of government would be fine with me if we could give our elections back to the people instead of allowing politicians to be bought and paid for by the highest bidder.

A free democracy if left in its purest state, with no undue influence from special interests, is a highly flexible form of government which can adapt itself to meet changing social and economic conditions.

The "opposite extrems" mentioned above only work in specific situations and are so rigid in structure that they can not adapt to a changing world.

Democratic Republic for the moment is the best we can do. Anything else that has been tried has been too slow, too unstable, or it resulted is massive oppression.

Dictatorship or monarchy would work beautyfully until an evil bastard came under the crown. Ethics is not genetic and power would corrupt anyone in such circumstances.

Democracy takes forever to work and would involve way too much attention from the populace. Gosh, how would you figure out bugets? Come home, feed the dog, and vote for 5000 things. Dosnt work well in anything bigger than a city state. Also average citizens dont know the facts as well as elected leaders and would thus be likely to do stupid things. (moreso han leaders, Im sad to say)

Anarchy flat out dosnt work. Immediatly you will have gangs form and essentially set up a tribal system. It is then no longer anarchy. Ever read Lord of the Flies?

I think Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for those that have been tried".

I concur.

The only form of pure democracy successfully tried on a scale larger than a tribe was the city-state of athens. And in that era there wasnt as much to manage.

The one where all of you are my minions and obey my biding to my every word. ;)

Be nice if we could have a REAL theocracy. One where a diety directly rules without any intermediaries.

Representative Democracy

Perhaps the question is which form of democratic government is best.

For instance, in America, an elected president alone is responsible for executive decisions and elected representatives of congress determine legislation and public funding.

In commonwealth countries, under the so-called Westminister system, the people elect representatives of parliament and the party or coalition with a majority in the lower house forms government with the leader of the party or coalition as the prime minister. The executive body is essentially the cabinet or in other words a collection of senior ministers. And under a Westminister system, the head of state, whether a monarch, a governor general or an elected president is largely a figurehead with little power.

Communism, which would ultimately leads to civilized anarchy.

None government is a best solution. I always say that democracy is a best solution for organization of people's community, but democracy works well in smallest community (up to 100 - 200 habitans). Bigger community worse democracy - see Russia, China and USA. Therefore If any government should be established for our prosperity it is only a chief of the village.

Chris

Anarchy is best.

Just curious, but what is some other peoples definitions of anarchy, esp. those who favor it?

SOCIALISM. the only way in which it still might work is if it's implemented in countries of small area and population.

Originally posted by blankc
Anarchy is best.

Just curious, but what is some other peoples definitions of anarchy, esp. those who favor it?

Anarchy is the absence of laws. In this situation it would be the rule of the strongest. People would gradually form into groups and these groups would fight and ultimately one group and in the end person would rule as a despot or dictator.

Example is what happened in Iraq after the fall of its government. Imagine a world where every person would have to spend time and energy defending property.

hmm..exactly why i say socialism. not an end in itself but a better alternative to anarchy.

I think we have to look at other species to start debating on the best social structures. -- Including the dominant species here on earth - ANTS. Ant and bee colonies are definetly not democracies.

But they have members willing to die for the good of the colony. This is humans were talking about.
Stupid selfish humans:p

The Borg Collective have the best government.

Maybe a republic of city states is good too. That way there would also be tons of diversity in social and economic policies, and everyone could find a city that offers thier ideal situation. Each city would have to have no restraints upon what kind of policies it has though, and if a city sucks, everyone will leave it, or overthrow the leader and change things.

I've had this discussion before, and someone stated that all governments are connected. Anarchy leads to monarchy, which leads to parliamentary, which leads to democracy, which leads to socialism, which leads to communism. The more I think about it, the truer it becomes. Currently, our economy and government have a lot of socialist ideas. Take a look at FDR's New Deal. It was socialist in nature. Also, our government makes sure that the capitalist society runs smoothly (ie no monopolies) isn't that government intervention and regulation? What's the next step?

Patriot

then communism leads to anarchy

What's best is subjective to each individual.

I prefer government that is presentative of the people, provide basic needs and services, give people maximum freedom, and make people feel safe.

Sadly the most form of government in the world has to be the beaurocracy. All that paperwork is in fact evolving into a massive intelligent being.

Originally posted by Patriot
I've had this discussion before, and someone stated that all governments are connected. Anarchy leads to monarchy, which leads to parliamentary, which leads to democracy, which leads to socialism, which leads to communism.


I think Marx said something like that. But the transition to communism requires a revolution which is a strong assumption.

In fact, I think all forms of government, if left unchecked, will lead to depotism and/or dictatorship.

Facism is Dictatorship

Anarchy to Dictatorship -> Lord of the Flies example

Monarchy to Dictatorship -> Some mentally unstable megalomanical heir to the throne assumes power using Elizabethan methods and rule with an iron fist.

Communism to Dictatorship -> Evident by history, eg, Stalin, Mao

Representative Democracy to Dictatorship -> Special interest groups, campaign financiers and lobbyists become more and more powerful, and ultimately all three branches of government (executive, judiciary, parliament) are biased, corrupted and controlled by the one group and ultimately one person and the country ends up with a puppet dictatorship. Or alternatively there is a military based coup and some soldier or general takes over and shreds the constitution (eg, pakistan and iraq).

So in any case, we are all doomed!! Doomed, I say! Doomed!!!

:D doomed :( seriously so, unless enough people pay enough attention to notice, and stand up against the consolidation and corruption of power, whenever these tendencies take hold.

The USA has so much promise, but so little opposition as Constitutional protections are eroded. Democracy is best, provided an informed and participating public maintains it. For uninformed and apathetic people, monarchy is best. Communism assumes far to much about human nature. Perhaps a carefully-sparked, covertly integrating and benevolent AI, continuously monitoring the collective will of humanity, will satisfy.

Originally posted by Clockwood
Be nice if we could have a REAL theocracy. One where a diety directly rules without any intermediaries. Iran?

Originally posted by hypewaders
a carefully-sparked, covertly integrating and benevolent AI, continuously monitoring the collective will of humanity, will satisfy.


But then over time the AI evolves and learns more. It develops more machinery and robots, and becomes more intelligent. It comes to view humans and animals as competitors of the robots for scarce energy on this planet.

Then as depicted in the matrix or in the terminator trilogy, the robots take over and enslave all of mankind.

:D Doomed!! I tell's ya!!! Doomed.

Nasor - I think benevolent AI could satisfy those who can't outgrow the need to grovel and/or collectively self-congratulate in worship. The rest could simply enjoy the benefits of egoless authority serving the needs of the planet and its outward-bound spawn.

DDDDDD - We're possibly doomed without AI in charge anyway. I consider this concept to simply be efficient, uncompromising democracy. If learning the will and needs of humanity were the kernel of the Program, I can hardly imagine it turning on us.

... but if it does, it's likely that it's simply what we deserve;)
Besides, take away the destruction and wasted efforts associated with human conflict, and we might become very interesting to watch, even for a "smarter" custodian of our own creation.

More seriously,

A theocracy and a government controlled by AI are both forms of dictatorship, all but in name. If too much power is concentrated in one area or group or person, that power will inevitably corrupt - whether it be the leaders of the military backed vatican or a new form of the taliban or those vested with the responsibility of creating the AI and ensuring that it becomes intelligent enough to exist on its own and to rule.

The only true hope that we humans have is the market. As Adam Smith said, it will be self interest and the pursue of profit that will produce the upward surge of mankind. The invisible hand - the only God that we can afford to worship.

True and complete capitalism will devolve power and discourage the formation of oligopolies and monopolies, via overwhelming competition.

"Greed is good"

(Gosh I watch too many movies.)

Originally posted by Clockwood
Be nice if we could have a REAL theocracy. One where a diety directly rules without any intermediaries.

I will lead you my children. :D

Hey Hype, isn't your idea a lot like clockwood's really?

I think something like www.technocracy.org. would be the best.

Anarchy is the only position where an individual could feel he/she was in control of their destiny.

"Anarchy is the only position where an individual could feel that he/she was in control of their own destiny"

He with the most weapons would soon be his/her new dictator.

No Intermediaries.

You see a guy in Iran with a coffie cup that says "world's best Imam"

From many of the arguments, it seems that everything leads to dictatorship: so really the "best" form of government is a dictatorship with a "good" dictator: someone with morals and ethics. I believe someone already stated this idea...just throwing it back out for discussion.

Patriot

Sadly 99% of dictators either start off as evil bastards or are corrupted into being evil bastards. The good ones eventually die and are replaced by evil bastards. *SIGH*

Anybody that comes to power is exactly the wrong person that should have it.

Originally posted by katavan
*shiver!*

If wesmorris leads, hell will be a blessing

OUCH!

Thanks for thinking of me. You're a sweetie! Hell? Come on, I'm not that bad! so I must be that stupid? you just don't want an ass in charge? don't you think as long as they're amusing, well meaning, and in acknowledgement of their limitations they're at least slightly better than hell? yikes.

I am sure some parts of hell are quite nice. The section where Lucifer and his assorted minions reside in their off time probabally looks like a souped up version of vegas.

Originally posted by DeeCee
Dictatorship

There. I said it.
Dee Cee

I agree... I will be the worlds first Benevolent Dictatator.

Shut up !!.. or you will be " removed " for the good of the world..

Originally posted by adam2314
I agree... I will be the worlds first Benevolent Dictatator.

Shut up !!.. or you will be " removed " for the good of the world..

Isn't that an oxymoron? Seriously, how could a dictator stay benevolent with everyone trying to sack him all the time. I bet there'd be a lot of contendors for "benevolent dictator", don't you think? It's the greedy people, the power hungry sociopaths that ruin it for everyone in one way, and keep the system balanced in another.