Best British imperial/patriotic song

Discussion in 'Art & Culture' started by mountainhare, Feb 6, 2006.

  1. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    A couple of my British friends got into an argument over which British imperial/patriotic song PWNS.

    I personally think that 'Rule Britannia' is by far the best.
    'The British Grenadiers' is quite catchy, too.

    What do the poms on this board think?
     
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  3. Facial Valued Senior Member

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    God save the queen? Just about the only song I can associate with.
     
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  5. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

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    The original, or the Sex Pistols' version?

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    I'm not too familiar with British patriotic songs, but I do like the sound of "Rule Brittania". It just sounds so grand and confident, like "The British Empire has always been here and always will be." I don't know how true that is, but I was watching a documentary on Hadiran's Wall and the narrator said to imagine a time before England, when there was just a nameless island up north. It was quite a trip to do. It made me realize that our former masters really knew a thing or two about staying power.
     
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  7. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    Oxygen:
    What's ironic is that the song was written BEFORE Britain ruled the waves. At the time, the British were trying to make better ship than the Danes, which is how this song came into being.

    As time passed by, the song became more and more appropriate...
     
  8. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

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    Well, if HMS Victory is any yardstick, I'd say they succeeded beyond their wildest imaginations. When did England become the "sovereign of the seas"?

    (On a side note, do you know what the final official British version of events was for the capture of the USS President during the War of 1812? I heard that Captain Hope kept trying to make it out that his HMS Endymion had taken her singlehandedly, while the rest of the ships involved, British and American, held that it took the whole squadron to bring down Cmdr. Decatur and USS President. I never was able to find out what the Royal Navy decided. Given that three British captains supported Decatur's version of events, if not his body-count, I'm inclined to believe them instead of Capt. Hope.)
     
  9. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    I don't have a foggy clue about what you are talking about, Oxygen.
     
  10. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

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    Not what i'd consider an imperial song but i quite like Over the Hills and Far Away.
     
  11. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry, mountainhare. Thought you might be a bit more into history. I keep forgetting what a history weenie I am.

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  12. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    Oxygen:
    I think the problem is more my ignorance of recent British history, instead of your geekiness.

    Care to elaborate on your previous post, which caused confusion? Any time is a good time for a quick history lesson...
     
  13. Jaybee from his cast Banned Banned

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    Given the inexorable slide of the UK into mediocrity, I think a more fitting song would be,

    "God HELP the Queen".

    Jaybee.
     
  14. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

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    mountainhare Up until the War of 1812, Commodore Decatur was undefeated in naval combat. It was like from the time he joined the US Navy you could put him on a log raft and he'd still kick ass. His reputation was such that during the War of 1812 England put entire squadrons in position just to make sure that he never made it to open waters He spent about a year cooped up in inland waterways looking for his break. When it finally came one night, he set out for open sea like a bat out of hell... only to find thhat the gunboats positioned as guideposts past Sandy Hook had not been placed properly and his ship, the USS President struck a bar and ran aground. He lost two hours trying to get her free until the tide rose high enough for her to sail free, albeit now with considerable damage and a twisted keel. Several rudder braces were broken and the false keel was toast.

    The wind and tide prevented him from setting sail to New York for repairs, and it was too late to turn around, so Decatur went for the Atlantic. Had it not been for the time lost freeing President, he would have had a 20 mile lead on the British squadron that was keeping him holed up.

    The British squadron consisted of Capt. John Hayes in the razee* Majestic, Capt. Richard Henry "Valentine" Hope in the Endymion, Capt. John Richard in the Pomone, and Capt. Hyde Parker in the Tenedos. The British also had the brig Dispatch. Majestic and Endymion were each more than a match for President.

    President had a reputation for being a fast sailer, but her wounded keel slowed her down considerably. Endymion caught up with her and a running battle ensued. Hope was familiar with Decatur's tactics and gave him no opportunity to close, an event which would have led to a boarding party, the abandonment of President and more than likley the subsequent loss of Endymion to the Americans. (Decatur had a top-notch boarding party. Whatever ship they set foot on quickly became an American ship. Most of these guys had been with him since the Barbary War.)

    Even with such a wounded ship, Decatur cut Hope's ship to ribbons. Endymion was sent packing with shredded sails, snapped spars, and cut rigging. (Majestic was too far away to be an issue for President.) Still, she had done considerable damage to President's ability to fight by targetting the crew itself and not the ship.

    As night fell Decatur made his last run for it, hoping the stormy skies would conceal his escape, but by 11PM the clouds cleared up and he saw Tenedos, Pomone and Dispatch closing in for the kill. (At the hearings, Decatur testified that he at first thought it was another the size of Endymion, and had he known it was only 2 frigates and a brig, he would have stayed for the fight.) With 20% losses he hoped to save his crew from a slaughter and struck. Tenedos and Pomone did not hear the hail of surrender and opened fire. Decatur prepared to return fire but the whole matter was cleared up before he could do so.

    Here's where the disparities come in. The American reports show Tenedos as having been at two cable lengths (about 500 yards) and in position to rake President, while the logbook of the Pomone puts Tenedos at 3 miles. Evidence supports the British version, but there is question about other parts of the report. The Admiralty shows Decatur as having surrendered to Endymion when he in fact surrendered to Pomone as a representative of the whole squadron (since no ship to ship combat had occurred between the two, Pomone couldn't claim a victory in the surrender). Also, the British put the American body count higher by about a hundred or so. It's thought that this was so the prize money would be greater. Decatur, who had a reputation for knowing the full names of his entire crew on any particular ship, contested the number, although in the ensuing confusion could not account for all of them until some time after the event (the prisoners had been divided up among the British ships).

    When it came to the prize money, Hope got it. He sat back quietly and allowed the press to churn up the image that Endymion had beaten President in one-on-one combat and that Pomone, Tenedos and Dispatch had been called in later to scoop up the floating wreck that had been President. The captains of those ships held that it was a squadron action, not a solitary ship action, that had brought President down, and that any prize money should be divided among the squadron.

    Decatur's version of events supports the three captains, and it was hinted at that Decatur may have been trying to grab one final victory in trying to deny Endymion the credit. However, this would be completely inconsistent with his character. Capt. Hope was trying to improve his weatlth and standing in British society and had every motivation if not to out and out lie then at least to keep his mouth shut while the British press created a much-needed hero in a war where there had yet been no decisive victories for either side.

    The motivations for Hope and the British press to go after Decatur so rabidly (they described him as a "whipped dog" and he damned near sued them for it) stem from his taking of the HMS Macedonian earlier in the war. It had been boasted that Capt. John Carden and Macedonian were more than a match for anything the Americans could put out. Carden and Decatur were friends before the war and had pondered what would happen should the two meet in combat. Carden claimed he'd win because of longer-range cannon while Decatur claimed that superior gunnery and seamanship would carry the day. When they met in combat, Decatur's frigate United States took Macedonian to school and brought her home as the first useable capture of the war. This stung the confidence of the proud British navy that these rough, undisciplined rebels who dared to call themselves sailors could bring down a British frigate. It also apparently stung the pride of Captain Carden's 1st Lieutenant, Richard Henry Hope.

    Well, that's my geekiness for all to see. And to make matters worse, I only had to crack open a book to confirm the names of the captains of the rest of the British squadron. The rest of this is from memory.

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    *razee- removing the top deck of a ship of the line to save money in crew costs (cannon crews were expensive) while maintaining the structural integrity of a larger ship. American frigates were stronger, larger and faster than British frigates. The British ships of the line were as strong as American frigates, but were toruously slow. They had to sacrifice a deck of 16 cannon in order to catch up with American frigates.
     
  15. Guilty_Biscuit Registered Member

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    Has to be 'Land of Hope and Glory'.
     
  16. longlostlady Registered Senior Member

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    rule britania!!!!hell yes!!!
     
  17. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    In and around the 1580s. Whupped the 'Invincible' armada of Philly 2.
    Either that or something near the late 1600s.

    On topic:
    "Rule Britannia" is good. "British Grenadiers" is catchy.
     
  18. Blue_UK Drifting Mind Valued Senior Member

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    "Jerusalem" is pretty good. (Ludicrious though the meaning may be!)
    Although not imperial it is British.

    I know this is a Nazi one, but Die Fahne Hoch is a really good - very glorious. (The Nazis just changed the words actually, the credit should not really go to them).
     
  19. daydream_believer Et in Arcadia Ego Registered Senior Member

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    Does changing "Rhine" to "Thames" in Tomorrow Belongs To Me make it a British patriotic song?

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    If not, it has to be Rule Britannia. It evokes such delicate and delightful images of Imperialism...
     
  20. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    I like the Sex Pistols version quite much. In fact, I will playback it now!

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    Maximum volume! So nice one my university prof lives below my apartment.

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  21. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Has to be JERUSALEM!

    Altogether now....
    "And did those feeeeeeeet in ancient tiiiiiime
    Walk upon England's moooooountaaaaaains greeeeeen?
    And was the Hoooooly Lamb of Gooooood
    On England's pleasant paaaaastuuuuures seeeeeen?
    And did the cooooountenaaaaance diviiiiiiine
    Shine forth upooooon oooooour clouded hiiiiiiiills?
    And was JERUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSALEEEEEEM buuuuuuuuuilded heeeeeeeeeeeere
    Among these dark sataaaaaaaaaaaaaniiiiic miiiiiiiiills?"

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  22. Peter594 Registered Member

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    It's not so ironic - the correct line is 'Britannia rule the waves' (not 'rules' as it is almost always sung). It's an imperative, an instruction for the future, not a statement of fact.
     
  23. Dr Hannibal Lecter Gentleman and Cannibal. Registered Senior Member

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    Scotland the Brave.
     

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