Honestly; I wish to ask something to all ye females out there...

I've seen many women call men pigs because they 'use' women for sex... dragging them along and pretending to feel something for them and then just dumping them...

but if a guy came up to you and asked if you wanted to have a physical, no feelings involved, relationship... would you admire his straightforward-ness? or still consider him a pig?

You mean if a woman would say it to me or when I would say it to a woman?

I think that women view men who are so direct as socially inept. They can't figure out a way to charm the pants of her and so they have to resort to simply asking. Some women like it, most don't. It's a sign of weakness and women don't like weak men.

Yeah, most women don´t like it (says one who tried it sometimes)

any male have a view on this? =P

I've had women come up to me and suggest the same - a physical only relationship.

I can tell you from my experience that a 'physical only' relationship is impossible.

From my experience, emotional feelings almost always develop.

Sure, the first time is great and you feel no attachment and that's why you do it again, then again, then again and suddenly you realize you have feelings. That's when things change. One always uses the 'it was only a physical relationship' argument while the other can't accept that.

Honestly, from my experience, 'fuq' friends' relationships are doomed from the first time.

Spell color wrong, Jaded? :p

I was thinking of even more directly than your example. I was thinking more along the lines of just saying, "Hey, let's go get nasty." Without any warmup at all. He tried to charm you and stimulate your erogenous zones. Even though he didn't seem to go the full nine yards. I still think many women would have seen that as inept and weak. Note your hysterical reaction... Did you accept? That's key to the issue. What was the conversation like beforehand? You're a smart girl. Was he trying to turn you on intellectually before he started sucking your fingers?

From my experience, emotional feelings almost always develop.

Yeah, usually the first time you see her with another guy, or vice versa...

Yeah, usually the first time you see her with another guy, or vice versa...

You have me figured for someone else. Truth be told, I'm open sexually and don't allow the primal 'jealousy' emotion rule my thoughts.

hmm.... I don't think it'll end up in sex... but hey; it feels good... and when it ends we'll have lost nothing... =P

Perfect attitude, in my opinion. :)

what if it's an open relationship? i.e. they can flirt at will

That's the thing. It's easy to say open relationship, but hard to live that way. Possessiveness (I have a feeling that's too many s's) get's in the way. There are certainly times that you won't get possessive. For instance, if you don't care a thing about the person. But, even in the case of mere friendship sex, it's hard to escape that feeling. We're wired wrong. We're programmed to own our mates, to not allow others to defile our temples.

It can be done, but it's hard.

hmm.... I don't think it'll end up in sex... but hey; it feels good... and when it ends we'll have lost nothing... =P

Ahhh, see. He tried the direct approach and it didn't work. Next he'll have to try flowers or stimulating you in other ways. Unless he's the kind of guy that will just keep pestering you until you give in. Cmon... C'mon... Your breasts are like down-filled pillows and your eyes are eyes are deep enough to drown in... C'mon... :p (Sorry for the crappy metaphors... I couldn't think of anything better on the spot... What did he say to you? Was it better than that?)

And what have you lost? Well, perhaps a friendship in the end... It's hard to take rejection sometimes.

You have me figured for someone else.

I'll accept that. There are people who don't get the jealousy bug. Attachment has similar effects though. Just less drastic.

it's not letting me post!!!!

It's not? :D

He turns me on intelectually too... but I'm thinking of ending it. Just I'm not quite sure how to do this!!!

Kick him in the balls... that ought to do it... :p

Seriously, it's hard when it's a friend. You could just pull out the dreaded friend card. And, you might actually be telling the truth. Unfortunately, if he's persistant and really wants you then it might ruin the friendship anyway. Those hurt looks from across the room and such.

Let's get nasty doesn't work for you??? What?? It works everytime over here in the states. :p Actually, I don't think I've ever used that particular phrase in more than jest. Usually, when I try the direct approach it's more like "Wanna go... ?" and leave it at that. That way, she fills in her own words.


Edit: I hope in real life you're more romantic. That's kinda =P =P

I did apologize for the lame metaphors... :p I don't go in for the romance bit, too much. No poetry from this boy.

I don't generally hop around too much. I've been in this thread for a while now. Playing my guitar at the same time. I'll pop out every now and again, but I don't feel too intellectual today, so am staying away from the more philosophical threads for the moment.

And I don't like being tracked... :D I'd never try to track you...

"Wanna go...?" might work for me if it were a one night thing and I was feeling particularly depressed and in need of something a little more [insert your own word].

That's when I use it... And when I don't really care if it's accepted or not. Though I generally try to stay away from depressed women. I've missed out on several scores because I couldn't take advantage of emotional instability of the poor girl. I'm far too nice of a guy for my own good.

JADED...

It sounds, from your posts, that this guy wants you in a nice way: without the usual pathetic attempts to flatter (insert any one-liner here). And it sounds like you're keen on him too, not to mention you've known each other for years.... Go for it! But beware if the hook-up is purely physical.

Awww....

I've tried, but it generally ends up far worse than the lines I printed a while back. I just don't have the poetic touch. I just end up rehashing bits of old poems I've heard and doing a dreadful job of it.

And as to your last examples, yup, that's how they come out. So I don't even try.

I'm really not this type of girl. Hmm... wonder what's gotten into me

Must be the scientific influence... :p

apart from that; what do you mean?

I was just joking that perhaps sciforums is having a "bad" effect on you.

Or were you referring to your indecision about how to deal with the boy? If that's the case, maybe you should go for it.

Now please; off the topic of me and on to what I originally wanted this to be about

I agree. Sorry about that... :D

Alright, now I'm confused. I'm making personal observations, from what I read in your posts, as to the chemistry you and this fellow have..... I may bo off in my interpretation of the situation (that's a lot of ...tion's).

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is: do what you like.
:m:

Ahh, ok, now I get you. And so this is where the crux of difficulty lies. Is it possible for you to get involved in a strictly physical sense without emotions coming into play. I'll let you answer this yourself, since we're no longer talking about you. ;) Something to consider though. As an aside, it is generally a good thing to attempt to learn all the aspects of your self. Physical and emotional. A little fling might do you good if you can keep emotions out of it.

Obviouslly

May I suggest, "obvious-silly". :)

Jaded:
Actually; I found it rather attractive when it happened to me...

Uh-huh

He took my hand and began sucking my fingers (in a rather sexy way), said some beautiful things about my body and then told me it was all he was interested in.
I really didn't know whether to be shocked; angry or flattered.
No, girly.
What you should have been is worried if your fingers smelled like tuna, considering this image I have of you sticking your fist up your pisshole.
How do I know you're lonely?
Hmm.....



but if a guy came up to you and asked if you wanted to have a physical, no feelings involved, relationship... would you admire his straightforward-ness? or still consider him a pig?
Or ask him for a pen to scribble his name on a bullet.
Only if he's ugly. Of course.

Ah, Gendanken... I wonder what will happen when you someday fall in love. You'll make some lucky man a wonderful nagging wife someday... :p :D

...considering this image I have of you sticking your fist up your pisshole.

Is it an erotic image?

I only wish women would be that straight forward... or that I could instantly know if a woman would be receptive to me being that straight forward.

Certainly would make life easier.

As for the thread question:

Anything that is less than burning passionate love
is a waste of your time.

I don't feel that way... burning passion sure but love just complicates the feelings after that burning passion.

Not everyone has the desire to be "in love" in their life at all times. Sometimes it is nice to just be with someone without all the mess that comes with being "in love." Like jealousy or feeling like you are owned in a particular way.

I prefer the much simpler relationship. We do what feels good or makes us happy and neither one has say over what the other can or can't do with their lives.

Rosa:
As for the thread question:

Anything that is less than burning passionate love
is a waste of your time.
You do realize its this 'burning' we find in passionate love that
incenerates one's logic and puts crabs in one's privates?

Meaning: if a human wishes to lose his identity, let him burn with passion until he explodes and loses his Self in the cinders.
What you should have said was anything that is less than burning passionate love is a safety measure. It keeps us from whoring.

Invert:
Ah, Gendanken... I wonder what will happen when you someday fall in love. You'll make some lucky man a wonderful nagging wife someday...
And you'd make a wonderful tampon.
I'm not a 'nag', but you're welcome to think so.


“ ...considering this image I have of you sticking your fist up your pisshole. ”

Is it an erotic image?
For you, maybe.
For me its a likelier image of how Jadedflower spends the lonely hours Friday nights.
And Saturday nights.
And Tuesday nights.
Thursdays, Wednesdays and Mondays.

You do realize its this 'burning' we find in passionate love that
incenerates one's logic and puts crabs in one's privates?

Meaning: if a human wishes to lose his identity, let him burn with passion until he explodes and loses his Self in the cinders.
What you should have said was anything that is less than burning passionate love is a safety measure. It keeps us from whoring.


Oh, what would I do without you?!

But I'm starting to think that there are more kinds of passion. One is such that indeed turns the passionate into cinder. The other one ... is something of a much nobler kind.

Jaded:
How do I know you're lonely?
Hmm.....

Why so green and lonely?


Radiohead, "There There"

Rosa:
Why so green and lonely?

Perdon?

Jadedflower here is cackling about her body being *ahem* drooled after in a place where we can't even see her damn face.
Says more about her than she does. Yes?

jade, now seriously...

If girls would like nice and honest guys, why would most guys be "bad boys"? Do you knwo why guys treat girls like that? Because girls like it. I mean... have you ever heard any story of a girl being mistreated by her boyfriend nd coming back to him over and over again? Girls like it. That's why most guys are jerks... girls keep rewarding them for being jerks.

If nice, romantic, straighforward guys were popular, you would see them everywhere... ;)

Truthseeker:

No, they don't like it you fucking moron.
Half the time, she can't do any better and for the other half she's too stupid to realize he's an asshole.

Your logic is the earmark of the babyfaced little boy who plays 'nice' for pussy.
You will dote and dote and dote til she breaks and when she doesn't you coddle yourself with niceguysfinishlast bullshit.
Just becuase the girl inside of you is biggger than your penis does not mean girls are enamored of abuse, Truth. It simply means the girl inside of you is bigger than your penis, you oversized twat.
And girls pick up on it.

Gendanken,


The line "Why so green and lonely?" is from that Radiohead song. Jadedflower's avatars are lately green, so ... a vague reference to that song.
A more sublime reference from there: Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there. Must be played real loud.


Says more about her than she does. Yes?

Yes, fortunately, or unfortunately. I think she's bragging, to make certain men here think of her. To make them envy that other guy who sucked her fingers. So that she can enjoy in the envy she gets here, and think herself *so* sexy.




TruthSeeker,


If nice, romantic, straighforward guys were popular, you would see them everywhere...

If it would be *easy* to be nice, romantic and straightforward, people would be so.


It's easy to laugh,
It's so easy to hate,
It takes strength to be gentle and kind.

The Smiths

gend...

Your logic is the earmark of the babyfaced little boy who plays 'nice' for pussy.
You will dote and dote and dote til she breaks and when she doesn't you coddle yourself with niceguysfinishlast bullshit.
Just becuase the girl inside of you is biggger than your penis does not mean girls are enamored of abuse, Truth. It simply means the girl inside of you is bigger than your penis, you oversized twat.
And girls pick up on it.

Wow, we actually do agree on some things gendy...

The 'nice-guys-finish-last' logic is BS and gendy... clearly explains why - I can't believe I just typed something which agrees with gendy's... 'wisdom'.

If it would be *easy* to be nice, romantic and straightforward, people would be so.

Some do find it easy.

And you'd make a wonderful tampon.
I'm not a 'nag', but you're welcome to think so.

Nag isn't quite the right word, but I was unable to find a better one. I was thinking fishwife, but I don't think that's it either. Harrying, perhaps? Not that's a bad thing. :D

And tampon? Nah, I would think of myself as a more of a maxipad... with wings. :D

Rosa:
Yes, fortunately, or unfortunately. I think she's bragging, to make certain men here think of her. To make them envy that other guy who sucked her fingers. So that she can enjoy in the envy she gets here, and think herself *so* sexy.

*grin*

Oh, the games titties play. HA!

Fire:
Wow, we actually do agree on some things gendy...

The 'nice-guys-finish-last' logic is BS and gendy... clearly explains why - I can't believe I just typed something which agrees with gendy's... 'wisdom'.
You've been agreeing with me since your sign up date.

Invert:
Nag isn't quite the right word, but I was unable to find a better one. I was thinking fishwife, but I don't think that's it either. Harrying, perhaps? Not that's a bad thing.


Try 'submissive'.
Or 'docile' and 'tender'.

Its my virginal modesty, my fucking feminine charms that so sweet, lovely and docile have you all tounge tied.
So quiet and unassuming, that gendanken, like Canada with overies and long hair.

Try 'submissive'.
Or 'docile' and 'tender'.

Gendanken, dear, why don't you run down to the corner store and fetch me a six-pack? And when you get back, I sure could use a foot rub...

Because I'm far too busy pissing in your coffee.
Try Jadedflower, she's got a hot-bod.

Muahhahahahaha......my.

"Great coffee, Gendy!" *Giving the classic folgers moment smile*

I should put that in the film quote thread.

why not put danken on ignore????

In answer to the thread title girls dont like direct guys no matter what they are after, they seem to get a kick out of screwing with your mind and if your direct they cant do that, there really isnt a point to it, and this is where the nice guys finish last thing comes from, nice guys will put up with the game for a while only to most likely find shes not interested whereas bad boys will wanna fuck and move on, without any games so she says yes or loses her chance, the nice guys finish last thing is coz playing their games wont get you laid.

No, they don't like it you fucking moron.
Oh, really? Then why 95% of the guys nowdays are complete jerks? Maybe it is because it works...? :rolleyes:

Honestly, why would a guy be a jerk if he wasn't rewarded in any way? Being nice is out of date. Unless you pretend to be nice. Then, most girls are dumb enough to fall for it...


Half the time, she can't do any better and for the other half she's too stupid to realize he's an asshole.
That is sad, but true....


Your logic is the earmark of the babyfaced little boy who plays 'nice' for pussy.
If I played nice, I would have lots of "pussy", but guess what? I don't "play" nice. I am nice with them, and they totally don't see it, because it is too subtle. Then there are the guys that are only nice so that they can sleep with the girl. They completely exagerate their "niceness" so that they can be seen. It is not my case. In fact, I even hide the fact that I'm nice. Hiding in my shell. How pathetic. Maybe I should just screw everything and become a jerk. Maybe then I would have something to live for... :bugeye:

If it would be *easy* to be nice, romantic and straightforward, people would be so.
Maybe it is genetic... :confused:
I'm not straightforward. I wish I were, but my earlier attempts have been completely rejected... :/
Yeah, well... whatever... Maybe I should become a jerk...


It's easy to laugh,
It's so easy to hate,
It takes strength to be gentle and kind.

The Smiths
Yes, it does.... even more when you are treated badly.... :/

why not put danken on ignore????
Good idea, eh? :rolleyes: :D ;)

No, I'm not going to waste my time putting him on ignore; I'll just assume he's retarded and pitty him.

Anyhow; my 2 cents on males is...

Nice guys; I mean, real nice guys are great. Really. But the asshole does have his appeal. Life is to boring to settle for something that's just 'nice'. You want something exciting, something to break the monotony... something that some of the idiots seem to provide. Nice guys are nice, but sometimes... you don't want nice.
Maybe we should be more radical? Maybe we (nice guys) should be a little bit more exciting? Is that what you want? It is funny... cause I was talking with my roomate today, and she asked me if I've ever done something stupid or exciting, and I said no. I said that I was too nice and behaved to well. And then she said that is boring and that I should do something exciting and I agreed with her... And she got all happy and wanting to help me to workout.... :D

Maybe... I-should... do something.................
........stupid? :D

Please flower... give me some insight, some ideas on how I can be more exciting.... :D

aw... and hey, look... my first thread in the Cesspool =( So much for wanting honest discussion.
Noooooooooooooo!!!! You made it and I didn't!!! Awwwwwww.... :( :(

:D

Oh! Ok...
*cross out "punching a mirror" out of the list*

Truth:
Oh, really? Then why 95% of the guys nowdays are complete jerks? Maybe it is because it works...?
"Jerks" is a word that circulates among the incompetent.

While the men conquer you boys sit on the sidelines, benchwarming, nursing a bruised ego and "Jerk" is your band-aid, you nice guy you!!!

I am nice with them, and they totally don't see it, because it is too subtle
No, but what *is* subtle is the faint whiff of menstrual blood we girls pick up from guys like you, buncha pussies.

Which reminds me-
Gendanken is reeeeeeally removing the will I have to post in here.
Actually; he's done it already.


No, I'm not going to waste my time putting him on ignore; I'll just assume he's retarded and pitty him.

Gendanken's a bitch, bitch.

*Put me on ignore. On thy mark, get set, go....

This thread is sad. I do not like being condescending but this thread is just sad.

Please flower... give me some insight, some ideas on how I can be more exciting....

Geez man...are you the most desperate man alive?

If I played nice, I would have lots of "pussy", but guess what? I don't "play" nice. I am nice with them, and they totally don't see it, because it is too subtle. Then there are the guys that are only nice so that they can sleep with the girl. They completely exagerate their "niceness" so that they can be seen. It is not my case. In fact, I even hide the fact that I'm nice. Hiding in my shell. How pathetic. Maybe I should just screw everything and become a jerk. Maybe then I would have something to live for...

I mean DAMN man....seriously, do you think before you type...on an PUBLIC FORUM???? You caught me in a bad mood but seriously....you come off as someone not even a drunk girl would fuck.

"I am nice, I am not a jerk, I get no ass blah blah blah fucking blah. I want some ass because I act like a clean precious snowflake with girls...blahbidy fucking blah"

Others guys aren't as much of jerks as you say they are, they just aren't as desperate as you or they hide it well under the visage of what people like to call CHARM AND PERSONALITY....works wonders for the "Jerks".

TruthSeeker,

I'm not straightforward. I wish I were, but my earlier attempts have been completely rejected... :/
Yeah, well... whatever... Maybe I should become a jerk...

Yes, it does.... even more when you are treated badly.... :/

Aha, so it is because you were treated badly that you now believe that being a jerk is a good solution?
What a pathetic twit you are.

JadedFlower,

Nice guys; I mean, real nice guys are great. Really. But the asshole does have his appeal. Life is to boring to settle for something that's just 'nice'. You want something exciting, something to break the monotony... something that some of the idiots seem to provide. Nice guys are nice, but sometimes... you don't want nice.

Nope, girl. The only one who is being monotonous, who is not exciting, who is "just nice" -- is *you*, not life.

You can do all you want, you can hook up with as many "bad boys" as you can manage, smoke tons of pot, it won't help a bit. Unless *you* become more interesting, more exciting, more passionate, you'll still want *somebody else* to drag you from your loneliness and your monotony.

What a bunch of jerks... :rolleyes:

...
Where were we again? Oh, yeah...
what else is on the list? :D
Just stuff like pretending to be cool, acting like an asshole, scratching some parts of my body, bullying people on sciforums, spitting in the ground, telling stupid jokes, acting silly........................... :D

Rosa:
Unless *you* become more interesting, more exciting, more passionate, you'll still want *somebody else* to drag you from your loneliness and your monotony.
*snap*

And unless we do something exiting we can never drag our pride back up from finding, once again, we've ended up in the Cesspool.
I say we pick on Jadedflower.
Yes, this should be lucrative.

Barring my embittered jealousy at being up against such a hottie, and thus depriving her of ammunition (you hottie you! Jadedflowers!!)... I say we discuss the reasons why women are
One: Beastly bores.
Two: Parasites
Three: Perfect prey.

No need to be viscious, we can make this political.

Gendanken,


I say we discuss the reasons why women are
One: Beastly bores.
Two: Parasites
Three: Perfect prey.

I shall let my tissue to the ground ...


One: Beastly bores.

a) To do away with the trivial first: Many women spend so much time grooming themselves, thinking of grooming themselves, comparing one's own grooming oneself with the grooming of others -- that little time is left to study, have intelligent conversation; in short little time is left to make oneself interesting.
The time I spent on reading beauty magazines -- if I had spend at least a third of that time on studying books on informal logics and sound argumentation, I bet I'd be a lot more interesting, and have a lot more to say.

b) There are two things in this: BEASTLY and BORES.

As for bores: A part of it can be blamed on the way the typical female brain works (http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,937913,00.html). It just doesn't want to think in systems, it does not choose analysis first.
(Anyone remember the scene in "The War of the Roses" where a wife, Kathleen Turner, tries to explain how they got the Baccarat glasses, and then, as everybody gets bored, her husband, played by Michael Douglas, steps in and explains the same thing in a few words? Now that's a typical example of male vs. female thinking.)

Secondly, women are traditionally seen as the ones that ought to be quiet in mixed society. It does not surprise they are often bores, as it is simply not expected for a woman to have something to say, in fact, it has long been prevented.


As for beastly: Once more, the patriarchat, in order to ensure "purity of race and rank", had to make sure that women would not whore (" ") around. This is why an idealized image of a woman was pursued (and still is): a *beautiful object*. Made to please. Perfectly passive. Completely harmless.
However, these are unnatural restraints -- for a woman can and does see for herself that she is not as powerless as men want her to think. She is not pleased with merely nicely sitting there -- if passiveness would really be all she can be: why does it feel so wrong?
And as a *compensation* to those forceful restraints, women turned into beasts.

There is a more farfetched explanation for the beauty and the beast, but it probably has some merit: To be able to tell good from evil, one must know both. To be able to be beautiful, one must also know what it means to be ugly. In order to be a beauty, one must also be a beast -- all in the same body+mind. The separation of "the beauty" and "the beast" is artficial, an ill idealization. One is either both, or neither.


Two: Parasites
Three: Perfect prey.

From what I gathered, this seems to be the case: Women are often brought up with the idea that a woman must please people and if they don't like her or if they don't appreciate her, then it is all her fault, and she has to do everything to make it better -- while her own feelings don't matter one bit in this, as she is meant only to please. To live through other people. She should be happy if others think well of her, and she should try to make others think well of her. No matter how much pain, suffering, self-loathing and hate this may cost her. This is also another reason for the beastiness, if not the main one.

It comes as no suprise that with such lessons, it is impossible to develop something like a healthy personality or strength of character. Such a woman is an alias. A shell.
As such, she needs other people to suck on, she needs other people to tell her that she has worth -- she is a parasite.

But at the same time, being so dependent of others, she also makes the perfect prey. She was brought up with the idea that she cannot live by herself and for herself.
While it is true that one simply cannot live all by oneself and for oneself, I think that in women, this trait is being brought to extremes: either live for others and through others -- or live in shame / die. There is no balance, no other option -- so the classical teaching.

Unless a woman somehow manages to overcome this painful duality (be it by inertia, or a happy coincidence of wealth and genius), she is bound to remain a shell. A shiny, pleasing, depressed and depressing, beautiful, ugly shell.


Of course, not all women are as described above; we are only dealing with the typical repesentative of the traditional kind of a woman.

>(you hottie you! Jadedflowers!!)

Are you calling me a hottie? =P God, that's so degrading. Make me sound like an American Bimbo. Garrrgh.


You say we discuss the reasons why women are
One: Beastly bores.
Two: Parasites
Three: Perfect prey.

Hm....
Give us your view perhaps?

Bores? Maybe. Or maybe you're the bore and they can't be bothered to do anything fun around you.
Parasites? Clearly you don't know enough women.
Perfect Prey? Dunno. You tell me so I have something to debate against.

One: Beastly bores.
Two: Parasites
Three: Perfect prey.

This should be fun....

1- Beastly Bores- Hardly. Reading posts here, specifically rosa... 's, has perked my interest. Do women really feel this way? All the while I thought that smile was due to thoughts of strawberry fields forever.

2- Parasites - Yes, at times. But that's okay, parasites are at times too.

3- Perfect Prey- In what context? This is a loaded fuq'n phrase - it begs mercy.

*looking skyward with squinted eyes wondering where this came from*

EDIT: It came from the cesspool! :D

So that she can enjoy in the envy she gets here, and think herself *so* sexy.


I've just been reading half the things posted here, honestly Rosa, I had a good impression of you... but you seem to think that I need to make men I can't even see jealous of a guy I don't even care about. I mean, honestly... you're all strangers to me... so what the fuck do I care?

you seem happy.

Uh, just read through this thread, and found out again, how enlightening Gendanken´s posts are. :D

yes, quite thrilling.

JadedFlower,


Don't take this personally, but for the sake of this thread and its topic I will analyze a bit what you said -- I will make it impersonal by using the name Girl X as the author of your text, and Girl R for my part:


I've just been reading half the things posted here, honestly Rosa, I had a good impression of you...

Traditional point one: "Honestly Rosa, I had a good impression of you" -- attempt of emotional blackmail, a try to play on the moral feelings of the other.

Girl R is not responsible if things she says or does do not fit the picture someone has made themselves of her. Girl X is trying to make Girl R guilty of not being as good as Girl X thought Girl R to be.


but you seem to think that I need to make men I can't even see jealous of a guy I don't even care about.

Traditional point two: Diverting attention. Girl X can't see these men, but she can very well read what they have to say. And they have a lot to say. Expressing and wanting admiration is not limited to real life, sweetie.


Traditional point three: Denial. "A guy you don't even care about."
Those people who really don't give a shit -- don't even bother to say that they don't give a shit. Because ... well, they don't give a shit.
If Girl X wouldn't care about that guy or what he did, she wouldn't start talking about him or it.


Traditional point four: More denial.
I mean, honestly... you're all strangers to me... so what the fuck do I care?

Girl X DOES care, or she wouldn't start talking about herself in this thread. If her intentions would really be purely orientated in general debate, she would at least turn that example of the boy sucking her fingers into "My friend Anna told me that a guy sucked her fingers and ..." We could suspect that it probably has to do with Girl X, but few would actually have the nerve to say something *against her*.

We are NOT strangers to you: If Girl X can say about someone "honestly Rosa, I had a good impression of you... " -- then Rosa is not exactly a stranger to Girl X anymore.

And how many PMs has Girl X exchanged with people here? How many posts has she made? Has she you come up with a new nickname for someone? ... Yah, strangers they, we, are to Girl X ...

By "So what the fuck do I care" Girl X is trying to convince herself that she doesn't care -- while she is so painfully aware that she does care, more than she thinks she should.

Why do you analize this? (better question, why do I read this? must be boredom)

Why do you analize this? (better question, why do I read this? must be boredom)

We've decided to analyze woman behaviour and shed some light on the issue of "being direct".

uh..

Analizing the behaviour of women? Every woman is different anyway...
Who cares about being direct or not? Those who are indirect are liars anyway. They perform an act, to keep up a certain image, they do it to please their ego and their libido. They just do it on a more dramatic way than those that are direct.

Your attempt at being impersonal was rather pathetic, Rosa. You can't pretend to analyze what I say and make a judgment of character and then tell me to not take it personally. I can take a direct insult, I'll have you know that I'm not 3 years old anymore. Thanks.

So let's see... where to start replying to your bunch of crap.

a try to play on the moral feelings of the other and Girl X is trying to make Girl R guilty of not being as good as Girl X thought Girl R to be.

Err... no. If you're paranoid, don't blame me.
Your moral feelings. That one's priceless. I just couldn't quite believe you had me down as a Bimbo in need of exterior validation from random strangers. That's all. But whatever...

Expressing and wanting admiration is not limited to real life, sweetie.Deary, darling, honey, baby... maybe for some people expressing and wanting admiration is not limited to real life, but to me it is, sweets, sugar, treasure, princess...

Those people who really don't give a shit -- don't even bother to say that they don't give a shit. Because ... well, they don't give a shit.
If Girl X wouldn't care about that guy or what he did, she wouldn't start talking about him or it.
Right, well... someone's going off on a pretty little tangent here.
I started the thread because the situation I was in led me to wonder what other females thought of a particular subject. The conversation quickly took an unexpected turn and I put it back on track. Whether I care about the person I know in reality (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=reality) or not is really not the question.

but few would actually have the nerve to say something *against her*.
Following the attribution of inteligent cover names such as Girl X and Girl R, here, RosaMagika continues to reveal how childish she is by invoking the use of the old "my friend" tactic Warning: Look out for instances of the infamour "my friend" tactic in further RosaMagika posts, because now we can all be pretty sure it'll be herself she is refering to

We are NOT strangers to you
Excuse me but we have different definitions of the word stranger. I think you've been spending too much time online. Let me guess, you're registered in an online dating service? You think you can meet your soul-mate online? *sigh* God give me strength. We are strangers.

then Rosa is not exactly a stranger to Girl X anymore.
I had a good impression of you but I was wrong. The fact I was wrong just goes to prove that we are strangers and that I don't know you from Fred, Bob or Mary Ann Sue.

And how many PMs has Girl X exchanged with people here?
Many. Does that make us friends? Will I invite you over for Christmas or call you over for tea?

How many posts has she made?
1,368

Has she you come up with a new nickname for someone?
What? I'll go out on a limb here and say No but I'm not quite sure what you mean, dear Rosa.

while she is so painfully aware that she does care, more than she thinks she should
My, my... if I ever feel the need to find a psychologist, I'll PM you, Rosa. Actually, I won't. Why? Because you fail miserably at it and I dearly hope that this is not what you intend to do for a living. Dearly hope, not because I care about whatever it is that you intend to do in life... but because I believe that anyone who takes advice from you deserves better.
Painfully aware? Ohh ooooh the pain. Not.

Please woman, grow up.

Rosa:

Of course, not all women are as described above; we are only dealing with the typical repesentative of the traditional kind of a woman.
*funeral grin*
Suuure.

Thesis:
Jadedflower sayz:
Are you calling me a hottie? =P God, that's so degrading. Make me sound like an American Bimbo. Garrrgh.
Notice the subject's clever insinuations of ingnorance towards motive.
What are you talking about, Gendanken? This thread, stinking to hell of allusions towards person and sexual exploits, has nothing to do with self image. How could you possibly conclude what these little boys around here with the social skills of an eggplant already have concluded about me, as planned? Hottie???!! How could you?

Hm....
Give us your view perhaps?
Bores? Maybe. Or maybe you're the bore and they can't be bothered to do anything fun around you.
Surely.

Girl Y, like you, barely peeks her head in a room unless a penis is in it. Girl Y has barely peeked her head in this thread.......'til the boys showed up.
Girl Y is a trifling menace when not in the company of men, so she chases littley boys around spraying them with allusions and the scent of her pussy.
This keeps her sane, online and offline, and her uselessness becomes tolerable to her so long as she feels desired.
A walking contraditction in a push up bra...........welcome to hell, Jadedflower.

Bores? Maybe. Or maybe you're the bore and they can't be bothered to do anything fun around you.
No, I'd be tolerable to them if I *was* a bore- weaklings love camoflouge.

They'd love me had I been a man, but no, the female cannot stand to be in the company of other females unelss brought together by an Avon lady or fresh gossip...about men.
She wants to talk of her romance, she wants to let you know she is desired.
She needs to maintain her only shred of significance and will do so by devouring herself with love thoughts and inanity concernnig her vanity- men, makeup, motherhood.
The triple M's.
Now where would girls like you be without children, boys, and like *flips hair* makeup? Totally.

Parasites? Clearly you don't know enough women.
I know them quite well.

Perfect Prey? Dunno. You tell me so I have something to debate against
There's a mouse shrieking in the moonlight. Something must be torturing it.
Wonder why.

Edit:
Subject will now state she cares not for makeup, men, or motherhood.

JadedFlower,


You started this thread with.

Honestly; I wish to ask something to all ye females out there...

I've seen many women call men pigs because they 'use' women for sex... dragging them along and pretending to feel something for them and then just dumping them...

but if a guy came up to you and asked if you wanted to have a physical, no feelings involved, relationship... would you admire his straightforward-ness? or still consider him a pig?


Some thoughts and analysis followed. Then, it got personal about you. Then, some of us tried to give this thread some substance by analyzing female behaviour -- when Gendanken summoned to debate why women are (or aren't) beastly bores, parasites and perfect prey.

So, I sticked to the new spin of the thread, as I thought it could shed light on the feeling of "many women call men pigs because they 'use' women for sex". I used your own text, rewrote it into a more impersonal form -- to point at the reasons why women fall prey and get used.

You refused to see it that way -- so be it. You've proven that you are unable to separate between the thread topic, the analysis of it, and yourself.

Okies then.

Ta-ta.

Catfight! *Miaaauw!*

Seriously, I wish I got here earlier while things were still interesting.

Anything that is less than burning passionate love
is a waste of your time.
This caught my attention. It's somewhat of an academic topic that keeps popping up ever three years of my life: Passion (and ambition).

People think that passion involves an impulsive, irresponsible, purely emotional ambition - not to mention its association with sexual ambition. It's a kind of breathless word, gasped at the beginning of subjects that light up the eyes, and certain Ferrari discussions. But does it have a gentler approach? A side that isn't going nowhere fast, but somewhere, very deliberately and carefully?

Speaking once again of the direct approach. There's definitely a rhetoric involved, and different folks prefer different strokes. Some girls would empty their drink down your pants if you approached them with such obvious disrespect. Others would be immediately be aroused (to interest. please people) by such a bold display of masculine assertiveness (another of my pet peeves). But what would the post mortem reveal? A man that approaches any and all women this way and a girl who only responds to excitement? Or a genuine relationship?

My big question is: What should the initial level of commitment be? Does 'passion' allow for realism and rational decision-making, or is it an exclusively romantic notion that feeds on roses and red wine and dies without them?

A lasting relationship (assuming that's what one wants - I hear prostitutes generally respond well to "come on baby let's go") will require more than a bold approach and a manly display of guts (no, guts! sheesh) - because fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

Of course, I personally know a happily married couple who met when the one threw up and passed out in the other's lap at a party. I don't know how they managed to talk to each other seriously after that, but somehow they did. Maybe the direct approach is subject to atmosphere as well. Passion is a wild thing.

A walking contraditction in a push up bra...........welcome to hell, Jadedflower.


You seem my idea of hell. Hellish boredom, idiotic conclusions from fake propositions. *yawn*
Oh; and "push up bra"? *female pride kicks in*


Edit:
Subject will now state she cares not for makeup, men, or motherhood.

2/3 Correct.
I neither wear makeup nor care in the slightest bit for motherhood.
As for men; guilty... but not the whore you make me sound like. I have hormones, like other normal people my age also do... and as such, showing an interst in the opposite sex is only natural.
Oh; and my hair isn't long enough to flip back :p so fuck off. You're wrong with everything you say.

Jenyar:
Does 'passion' allow for realism and rational decision-making, or is it an exclusively romantic notion that feeds on roses and red wine and dies without them?

No, it allows for Pygmalion's creation with big tits.


Jadedflower:
You seem my idea of hell. Hellish boredom, idiotic conclusions from fake propositions. *yawn*
Oh; and "push up bra"? *female pride kicks in*

Translation:

That was, like, so totally wrong. I can totally show you how wrong you are, missy, by totally getting wicked humorous on your hinny. Stupid bitch, god you bore me, I am woman hear me Yawn. Grrrrrl Power!!!!!
Here it goes again you fat bitch.......yawwwwwwwwwwwn.

(Lolololo, and lmao, and ha ha ha and whatever else you teenaged imbeciles type in chatrooms)


As for men; guilty... but not the whore you make me sound like. I have hormones, like other normal people my age also do... and as such, showing an interst in the opposite sex is only natural.

Translation:

*queef* I've also, got like, an interest in deleting incriminating posts that clearly show motive. *queef* I totally was not looking for, you know, attention. I'm totally not like that. I only fuck offline men, gendanken!!
You stupid, wrong, bitch you!! *queef*

Seriously, I believe for what its worth at least half the little boys in here now realize your cute games.

I like bitching women, it can be quite entertaining.

*leans back and enjoys the show*


Oh, and what is this "queef" supposed to mean, if I may ask?

gendanken... It didn't cross my mind that you were actually female. I stand by my initial affirmation that you are yet to say anything that is actually correct about my character and that you are infact a pathetic excuse for a debater, and indeed very boring.
Your arguments are not arguments but just long lines of gibberish strung together by something resembling punctuation.
Go bash your head against a brick wall, or get run over or something... it'd be a big favour.

Oh, and what is this "queef" supposed to mean, if I may ask?
Vaginal fart.
Common in girls shifting around in their nervousness.

Jaded:
Your arguments are not arguments but just long lines of gibberish strung together by something resembling punctuation.
Go bash your head against a brick wall, or get run over or something... it'd be a big favour.
Ooohh.
If anything is getting bashed around here its a little girl's games slamming against the might of Real Women.
Go play, tootsie pop.

Real Women? You think you're a real woman? You wouldn't know a real woman if she walked up to you and slapped you in the face.
The might... the "might you be mistaken" in all your affirmations and incapable of saying anything decent? The might you actually be a retarded, emotionally repressed female who feels a need to bitch just because she can? What is it then? PMS? Menopause? I haven't a clue how old you are but you're acting like a three year old.

"oh yeah? Well... I'm better and you're 'badded'"...

Whatcha gonna do next, push me in the sand-box?

Whatcha gonna do next, push me in the sand-box?
Nope.
Tie your pigtails into a noose and then hang you from my porch.
Then we'll, like, you know, have a slumber party and talk about boys and shit, yah?!!

your (non existent) levels of maturity astonish me.

Argh, my voyeurism draws me back here... Keep it up girls, this is getting really productive.

Dreamwalker! How could you?! Calling her a girl like that... *shiver* No. Didn't you hear her *Roar*? She's a Real Woman remember?
Well... if that's a real woman, I never want to be one. The prospect is too sickening. To be like gendanken? God Help Me.

Huh? I like Gendi, she´s always so damn entertaining. And I call people by whatever expression I like. Bitching women, bitching girls, where´s the difference.

I was being sarcastic, Dream.

Yeah, I noticed. I saw that sarcastic smile of yours.

meh. I didn't put it in the post, but lately, most of what I say is sarcastic. Some people suck of the fun out of me

He, never happened to me, everything is funny if you look at it from the right perspective.
And those suckers, I just make them stop sucking if I feel like it :D

I guess I can always laugh at how pathetic they are. Ha. Ha. Ha. Hmm... no.

Ah, who cares? Some day, they´ll just endure are more or less horrible death, so why should they matter?

Doesn´t this thought lighten your day up?

If not, just look for something else that is funny and ignore them.

Or go out and bash someone...nah, probably not a good idea...is it?

it doesn't make that big a difference to me. Actually, it makes none.

Too bad, I am laughing for hours... well, mostly because I am reading entertaining websites like this http://www.i-mockery.com/main.asp instead of caring about people.

But just out of curiousity, why are you so pissed off by some people?

Pissed off??? No no no. Bored.

Ah, nearly the same thing, boredom pisses me off.
And people manage to be boring 24/7, nothing new about that. Only way out, make fun of them, make them really mad at you. :D

You can do all you want, you can hook up with as many "bad boys" as you can manage, smoke tons of pot, it won't help a bit. Unless *you* become more interesting, more exciting, more passionate, you'll still want *somebody else* to drag you from your loneliness and your monotony.
Not bad, Rosa.

Has it occured to you, Jaded, that your actions in this last page or so reinforce more what Gendanken and Rosa have been saying than what has preceeded them?

Fenris, no. It hasn't. Why is that so?

Jenyar,


Catfight! *Miaaauw!*

Nope, this ain't no catfight.
Poking a dead mouse is not catfight.


Seriously, I wish I got here earlier while things were still interesting.

Speak your mind, or forever be quiet. Make things interesting then. Dead mice aren't exactly entertaining, you know.


People think that passion involves an impulsive, irresponsible, purely emotional ambition - not to mention its association with sexual ambition. It's a kind of breathless word, gasped at the beginning of subjects that light up the eyes, and certain Ferrari discussions. But does it have a gentler approach? A side that isn't going nowhere fast, but somewhere, very deliberately and carefully?

Very briefly, 2 kinds of passion have been addressed earlier in this thread. Maybe you can make comments on that?


Speaking once again of the direct approach. There's definitely a rhetoric involved, and different folks prefer different strokes.

Calling it "rhetoric" is a a cop-out used by those who don't understand communication well. Think of this "rhetoric" as *trying out the field*, *sending probes into unknown territory* -- and it immediately makes sense.

Of course, some people don't care for looking first whereto they are about to step ...


Some girls would empty their drink down your pants if you approached them with such obvious disrespect.

If the man himself thinks of his behaviour as disrespectful -- why does he do it then? Because he hates the woman? Women in general? Himself? Because he simply lacks all tact?
If you know that you are being disrespectful, then you should ask yourself *why* you are doing it?


My big question is: What should the initial level of commitment be? Does 'passion' allow for realism and rational decision-making, or is it an exclusively romantic notion that feeds on roses and red wine and dies without them?

It all depends on whether the two believe in "true love" or not. This has a vast series of implications. If they do believe in "true love", they will most likely be somewhat slow and careful, feel out the terrain first -- and not go on the first ball.
"True love" does not just miracolously happen. The two each have to believe that there is something like "true love", and they also have to find out whether they are compatible or not. This, however, takes some time.


A lasting relationship (assuming that's what one wants

Ah, if people really knew what they want, life would be simple.


Of course, I personally know a happily married couple who met when the one threw up and passed out in the other's lap at a party. I don't know how they managed to talk to each other seriously after that, but somehow they did. Maybe the direct approach is subject to atmosphere as well.

Watch Speed 1 -- what does Sandra Bullock say to Keanu Reeves when the subway crashes out into the street, and they are in the wrecks of it?


Passion is a wild thing.

It does not exists just so per se. Humans are feeding it, raising it, taking care of it -- or denying it, killing it, painting it with some other, *safer* colours ...

JadedFlower to Gendanken:

I haven't a clue how old you are but you're acting like a three year old.

Gendanken, you have been caught in flagranti! You act like a three-year old!
Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiih!


*switches herself into the Mona Lisa mode*

Jaded:
Fenris, no. It hasn't. Why is that so?
Because- hear that eery sound of air whistling through a thick skull?
Do you hear those gentle queefs of a flirty idiot chatting with another one? Because its male?

All those noises are yours, you fucking miscarriage.

Rosa:
Gendanken, you have been caught in flagranti! You act like a three-year old!
Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiih!

YE GOTHS, NO!!

What's an embittered three year old greasy bitch to do, Rosa??!!

Hehehe....

"Speak your mind, or forever be quiet. Make things interesting then. Dead mice aren't exactly entertaining, you know.

- Rosa.

Sweeeeet.

You heard the woman, Dreamer. Speak up, or shutup.

You mean me? Or Jenyar, for Rosa´s answer was directed at him.

Me speak up? For what? Should I go and ridicule one of you or would it suffice to just rant about something?

YE GOTHS, NO!!

What's an embittered three year old greasy bitch to do, Rosa??!!

I don't know ... pick a suitable name ... like ... jjjjjjjjjaaaaaaaadddddddeeeeeedddddd flower, and then -- and then -- and then --.

Ah, her RAM ran out. Too bad, now it's all lost and we'll have to start all over again.

Dreamer:

Me speak up? For what? Should I go and ridicule one of you or would it suffice to just rant about something?
Yes, you.
Speak up. About anything.
Ridicule or no ridicule- no matter.

Anthying besides you sitting there with your thumb in your mouth 'chatting' with Jadedflower, that gorgous hottie with her fingers in men's mouths!!

You can think real hard on why women are:
One: beastly bores.
Two: parasites
Three: perfect prey.

Anything beats chatting, its a low art fit for vegetables. Like your little friend, Jaded. (but she's hot so stupidity looks *flips hair* totally good on her.)

Hmm, okay, I´ll write something.

Let me see, women are... well, they are boring most of the time. Of course, this depends on the individual woman, I personally like foul-mouthed, violent and hard drinking women. They are fun most of the time. Then, there are those boring teenage chicks that don´t posses more than one brain cell; they are easy to fuck, but not interesting in any other way.
Damn, there are so many different kinds of women it would take me the better part of a year to characterize them. So I will generalize.

Women are useless parasites, just like every other human being. And I really don´t give a flying fuck about any of them. Some manage to amuse me for some time, but people in general are rather boring and sometimes I would like to cut them down one by one.

And as a matter of fact, I think that some of the behaviour displayed here is just fucking stupid; but hey, I am not going to complain, it is the way of humanity.
The only reason to fuck women that are not whores, is to reproduce, to continue this damned species. Nothing I really advocate. I could not care less about the fact that women and men exist. We will all just die at some point, but most just don´t want to die without giving their pathetic lifes some meaning. And those crazy people see a child as something tremendously important. They center their lifes on that child, men and women alike, to mask their own unimportance.

As a result, I can say that I don´t care much for women, they can be entertaining for a while, but in the end, they will just fade away like everyone else.

This bores me a bit; I think I will go to sleep.

Ah, Nihilism. It used to be my watch word too. Now it seems more an old jacket one puts on and then takes off again because it doesn't quite fit anymore, but still keeps because it's the best jacket one ever had.

Wolf:
Ah, Nihilism. It used to be my watch word too. Now it seems more an old jacket one puts on and then takes off again because it doesn't quite fit anymore, but still keeps because it's the best jacket one ever had.
Yes, but on some it keeps them nice and warm in senility.
They at least get to sneer at the world comfortably.
Think Bazarov.
Schopenhaeur.
Weininger.

Dreamer:
And as a matter of fact, I think that some of the behaviour displayed here is just fucking stupid;
Uh-huh.

And why are you here?

"They at least get to sneer at the world comfortably."
Precisely. Not to mention wearing it out where they can be seen to be comfortable wearing it.

Weininger... I'll have to look that one up.

Speak your mind, or forever be quiet. Make things interesting then. Dead mice aren't exactly entertaining, you know.
I thought that's what I was doing.

Very briefly, 2 kinds of passion have been addressed earlier in this thread. Maybe you can make comments on that?
I assume you refer to:
But I'm starting to think that there are more kinds of passion. One is such that indeed turns the passionate into cinder. The other one ... is something of a much nobler kind.
My post was thinking aloud about exactly that. The side that goes nowhere fast (burns to a cinder and fades away) vs. the side that goes somewhere slowly (a flame somehow kept alive).

Calling it "rhetoric" is a a cop-out used by those who don't understand communication well. Think of this "rhetoric" as *trying out the field*, *sending probes into unknown territory* -- and it immediately makes sense.
Start from the abstract, work my way to the specific. Check.

Of course, some people don't care for looking first whereto they are about to step ...
Passionate fools.

If the man himself thinks of his behaviour as disrespectful -- why does he do it then? Because he hates the woman? Women in general? Himself? Because he simply lacks all tact?
If you know that you are being disrespectful, then you should ask yourself *why* you are doing it?
Because he has a twisted idea of a woman's expectation of "passion". Many men have the romanticized passion in mind when trying to appeal to womankind - who insists on passionate, i.e. not boring, men. Hence where they wouldn normally think of approaching a woman "as himself", for the sake of being succesful he throws all caution to the wind, and with that goes his mundane, everyday personality. He might succeed, but can the woman trust him after that?

It all depends on whether the two believe in "true love" or not. This has a vast series of implications. If they do believe in "true love", they will most likely be somewhat slow and careful, feel out the terrain first -- and not go on the first ball.
"True love" does not just miracolously happen. The two each have to believe that there is something like "true love", and they also have to find out whether they are compatible or not. This, however, takes some time.
And that leaves the direct approach far behind. At least in the 'pick her up at the bar' sense. Have we changed the context since then? But it shouldn't leave passion behind. My question still stands: what should the initial level of commitment be, especially if it's to be true love?

Ah, if people really knew what they want, life would be simple.
True love knows what it wants. I'm representing that corner.

Watch Speed 1 -- what does Sandra Bullock say to Keanu Reeves when the subway crashes out into the street, and they are in the wrecks of it?
Relationships that form under traumatic conditions never work out. Something to that effect. It's because the conditions are unnatural, and you'll have to spend most of the relationship under natural conditions. Events sometimes force people together (maybe nature favours the direct approach), but a flame that burns brightly in an oxygen-rich environment might lose its intensity in a normal earth atmosphere. That's why I favour passion that can survive on more than candlelit dinners - let's call it resilient passion.

It does not exists just so per se. Humans are feeding it, raising it, taking care of it -- or denying it, killing it, painting it with some other, *safer* colours ...
Taming it?

And why are you here?

Why? As I said, this is somewhat entertaining.

As for boredom: Henry James, in the novel "The portrait of a lady" wrote this:


You've no excuse for being bored anywhere.


That's my mantra.

well thats a pile of crap (in most cases)
of course its easily refutable, even if i used that 'box with white walls and no doors youd get bored then' thing, cause then people say this:
*kev voice* id think how to get out UUUUUUURHRHRHRHRHRHRHRHH *kev voice stops*

well thats a pile of crap (in most cases)
of course its easily refutable, even if i used that 'box with white walls and no doors youd get bored then' thing, cause then people say this:
*kev voice* id think how to get out UUUUUUURHRHRHRHRHRHRHRHH *kev voice stops*

In which case, you need to climb up on that pile of crap -- see what panoramic view you'll get from there ...

what the fuck is that supposed to mean?
(im in a bad mood today)
thats just extending a metaphor for no good fucking reason to make yourself feel better that your capable of doing so.

As for boredom: Henry James, in the novel "The portrait of a lady" wrote this:

You've no excuse for being bored anywhere.
I found that rather ironic, since big parts of the book were quite boring!

[QUOTE=gendanken]Jaded[QUOTE]

Jaded? Ohhh... pwetty word. I'm a two year old... I'm whatever you say I am. Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo...
Where did I leave my dollies?
Flowers... pwetty flowers... flowers and dollies.
Yep. Whatever you say, dear... I'll listen to you. Un hun. Right-O.

Jenyar,

I found that rather ironic, since big parts of the book were quite boring!

Why ironic? Maybe the book was boring to you, but that doesn't make the book boring as such.

Jenyar,


My question still stands: what should the initial level of commitment be, especially if it's to be true love?

It's so simple that people often refuse to see it.

Nowadays, sex is a thing that goes without saying. Yet think: What if she gets pregnant before you two have figured out whether this is to be the real thing or not? What will you do?

Keep the child and stay together -- because of the child?
Keep the child and not stay together?
Have an abortion and stay together?
Have an abortion and break up?

The fact that sex is regarded as a must, as a thing that goes without saying shows how reckless and choosy we are with our instincts and our bodies. We act as if having sex and making babies are to be two completely separate things.
As if we are entitled to have sex without getting pregnant.

And here's the beastiness of the modern woman: Contraceptives are not something one could really depend on. So before she has sex, she decides that if she gets pregnant, she'll have an abortion.

Now this makes her a beast: she is following her reproductive instinct and has sex, but at the same time she has scheduled to annull the natural outcome of this instinct.
It is nowadays regarded as normal for women to do that. Those who have problems accepting this "normalcy" are regarded as "frigid".

But it is *not* normal in the eyes of nature and natural instincts -- this is why women turn out to be such beasts.

And this is why so many relationships don't work out. People think they can really trick their bodies and their instincts. For a woman, being prepared to sacrifice your body like that and go against your instincts demands a lot of denial, and this makes the woman very insensitive and edgy, a beast.
Nobody wants to be with a beast -- but at the same time the modern condition to have a relationship makes the woman to become a beast.


To answer your question: In an ideal case, I think both should first know what they want out of the relationship and have compatible views on having children. And have sex only *after* they have figured out whether what they have is the real thing or not.

But it is modern to be irresponsible, choosy and reckless when it comes to instincts and bodies ... but then one shouldn't be surprised if things *don't* work out.

Jaded:
Jaded? Ohhh... pwetty word. I'm a two year old... I'm whatever you say I am. Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo Goo...
Where did I leave my dollies?
Flowers... pwetty flowers... flowers and dollies.
Yep. Whatever you say, dear... I'll listen to you. Un hun. Right-O.
How's this for a pweety, pwetty word:

AvrilLavignefuckingwannabe.

Rosa:
Now this makes her a beast: she is following her reproductive instinct and has sex, but at the same time she has scheduled to annull the natural outcome of this instinct.
It is nowadays regarded as normal for women to do that. Those who have problems accepting this "normalcy" are regarded as "frigid".

Are you not mistaking frigid for whore?

But it is *not* normal in the eyes of nature and natural instincts -- this is why women turn out to be such beasts.

Then explain the bonobo who's sexual intimacies rival ours in uselessness.
Explain the oranguntan masturbating with a tool she just made.
Explain the chimpanzee performing fellatio and cunnilingus on his partner.
Or the canine trying to hump one's leg.

Explain to me "Biologial Exhuberance"

Sex is a stimulant- its got its purpose but why frown on it, when used properly, by those using it for pleasure?
While not advocating abortion since I rally to no cause, a woman does have a right to her body.
As do men.

And this is why so many relationships don't work out. People think they can really trick their bodies and their instincts.
Civilzation, morality, goodness- all these exist as soon as humans "trick" their bodies.

Gendanken,

Then explain the bonobo who's sexual intimacies rival ours in uselessness.
Explain the oranguntan masturbating with a tool she just made.
Explain the chimpanzee performing fellatio and cunnilingus on his partner.
Or the canine trying to hump one's leg.

Explain to me "Biologial Exhuberance"

I think that alongside of developing intelligence (in the sense of using tools or elaborate hunting techniques) reproductive instincts (and possibly those of feeding too) and/or the activities that come along with them somehow had to make up for a balance. It seems that the more intelligent the species, the more degenerated (degenerated in the sense of: not being used strictly for reproductive matters) the reproductive instincts.
I can imagine that dolphins and orcas also pursue sexual activities that are not directly about reproduction.


While not advocating abortion since I rally to no cause, a woman does have a right to her body.

The difference between a human female and a bonobo female is that the bonobo is fertile once a year, while the human 12 times.
Explain this then.
Also, do bonobos, chimpanzees etc. have abortions?


As do men.

What are you trying to say? That they are entitled to have sex, and that women are supposed to give it to them?


Civilzation, morality, goodness- all these exist as soon as humans "trick" their bodies.

But take primitive cultures. There, instincts are rationalized in a religious way, and they are sacred and tabooed. True, they "trick their bodies", but it seems to be in a healther way than in Western culture.
While in Western culture, instincts are rationalized in a secular way, degraded and most of all, we are extremely choosy about them.
We like to eat sweets, but we don't want cavities (so medicine figures out a way to fix the problem).

The thing is that just because we can do something, doesn't mean that it is okay to do it. It seems that Westerners have greatly lost the sense of this balance.
-- Look at how many people are obese, smoke, are alcoholics, do drugs ...

AvrilLavignefuckingwannabe.

How about this one; HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHHAHAHAHA *pause for breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAIamn otHAHAHAHAHA?

Wait, or this one;

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA

Yeah! Exactally! AVRIL WANNABE! My dream since I was 3 is to be a wannabe blonde, wannabe guitar player in a wannabe punk rock band with wannabe songs and wannabe fans who dress just like me! EXACTALLY! I mean; I've always wanted to dress up in pink and leather, rub coal round my eyes, sound like a cat being stepped on when I sing and ABOVE ALL make amazingly pathetic rhymes like; get outta my head that's what I said, lalala... upset... make me go Oh Oh (I appologize if the lyrics are wrong, I try my best to not hear her bloody songs).

YOU'VE hit the nail on the head! An AVRIL WANNABE!!! MY LIFE'S DREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAM!

Hah, the typical denial. :p

Yeah, most women don´t like it (says one who tried it sometimes)

The question is though: Did it ever work?

I've heard 1 in 10 are receptive.

*shrug*

I just don't have the stomach for the 9 rejections. :)

Hmm, it works on some (when they are drunk).

But I suppose there are better ways. Never done statistics on this theme. :D

Rosa:
The difference between a human female and a bonobo female is that the bonobo is fertile once a year, while the human 12 times.
Explain this then.

Pardon, but you've picked the wrong primate:

"Bonobos are highly "promiscuous", often engaging in sexual behaviors outside of that for reproduction. This is thought to be one of the main reasons that bonobos are so infrequently aggresive as the sexual interactions reduces tensions. Mating postures include face to face and dorsoventral as well as others. There is also a large occurence of female-female genital (G-G) rubbing throught the age groups, again including face-to-face positions. The only aparent sexual "taboo" being mothers mating with their mature sons."

That said, the use of 'normal' is not only highly subjective, it limits discussion.
Broken record: a 12 year old boy learning to lick your clit dry with his tounge is degenerate to you, but its the perfect norm for a Mangaian boy.

http://www.bigeye.com/sexeducation/mangaia.html

What are you trying to say? That they are entitled to have sex, and that women are supposed to give it to them?


No, that he is as entitled to fuck her as she is entitled to fuck him or fuck off.

But take primitive cultures. There, instincts are rationalized in a religious way, and they are sacred and tabooed. True, they "trick their bodies", but it seems to be in a healther way than in Western culture.
While in Western culture, instincts are rationalized in a secular way, degraded and most of all, we are extremely choosy about them.
We like to eat sweets, but we don't want cavities (so medicine figures out a way to fix the problem).

The thing is that just because we can do something, doesn't mean that it is okay to do it. It seems that Westerners have greatly lost the sense of this balance.
-- Look at how many people are obese, smoke, are alcoholics, do drugs ...
Well, you speak as if half the Western world is "degenerate."

On every corner a Baptist, and the 700 Club is blasting across the whole Southeast America.
In his creature comforts, mingled with variants of culture shock, the conservative recoils furhter back in his shell and what he clings on to *is* religion.
The American has his las vegas as he does his church, and the San tribesman has his cannabis and his rituals. Same thing.

We're having revivals here on Wednesday, and you're all invited.




Jadedflower:

SHOO.

I have come back to this thread late (perhaps a bit ashamed of my earlier posts... I did briefly wonder of the scent of the finger, but I think I was trying to offer advice to a situation Jaded found herself in. It was personal question to her, hence it becoming personal so quickly.) I must say, that it has turned into a wonderful debate. Perhaps a move out of the cesspool and into philosophy or human science? Philosophy would probably be better. It should be a requirement of the cesspool that intelligent threads are reverse trashed.

Jaded,

No offense, but can you see how this has turned into a productive conversation. I give no opinion on your initial intent behind this thread (I had a share of leading it off course, from the impersonal to the personal.) But, now might be a time that you can get decent debate about the original topic. Why don't you join in instead of nursing your wounded pride? Pride can be the greatest obstacle to learning.

Why? As I said, this is somewhat entertaining.

Perhaps playtime is over and now the real fun begins?


I guess I should try to catch up by first addressing Gendanken's questions.

One: Beastly bores.

I think others here have mentioned the way women are "different". That they focus on more emotional affairs than hands-on practical application. But, at the same time, many men are unable to organize themselves in the aspects that a woman (in her standard role) excels. Running the home, keeping track of the kids, etc... You can name a long list of stereotypical womanly behavior that stereotypical man fail miserably in. Does this make them boring? To a man who can't envision that level of awareness it does. And women who are adept in these womanly tasks are apt to chatter about them. How much more boring can you get? If you're not interested that is...

But, women are far from boring to the opposite sex when the sexes meet in their biologic manner. Maybe immediately after the fact, they become boring once again. Perhaps even more boring because of the "pillow talk" while the man would rather just go to sleep.

Two: Parasites

I'd say this has to do with the roles in which they have been placed. The early hunter-gatherer societies are far more indiscriminate in this manner. In fact, the women probably did more to feed the tribe than the men. Nowadays, women are becoming free from this stigma once more. But, it is hard to shake several thousand years of ingrained behaviour patterns.

Three: Perfect prey.

Mating ritual. Again, stereotypes. The woman should be docile and subject to the beastly intentions of the man. In fact, many believe they shouldn't even enjoy it. It should be a chore, just like any other.

So, all these three are due to stereotypes. The niche in which woman has found herself. How they struggle to free themselves (some) but at the same time, many feel that it is proper for it to be so. That they will have to settle down and hatch a family. Nurture.

Now on to the good stuff. I'm going to go through and find this and that to comment on. I've come into this discussion far too late to attempt a complete response.

a) To do away with the trivial first: Many women spend so much time grooming themselves, thinking of grooming themselves, comparing one's own grooming oneself with the grooming of others -- that little time is left to study, have intelligent conversation; in short little time is left to make oneself interesting.

Funny you should mention this. There is speculation that we are hairless apes because of our addiction to grooming. We eventually picked ourselves bare. Other apes are just as addicted to grooming. It is a social requirement to strengthen group bonds.

And what about "time to make oneself interesting."? Is that not also a trait of woman? To make themselves interesting because they aren't by nature? I think the most interesting people are those who don't give a shit about being interesting. It's about passion for the subject at hand that sparks interest. Not some constructed design.

Women are often brought up with the idea that a woman must please people and if they don't like her or if they don't appreciate her, then it is all her fault, and she has to do everything to make it better -- while her own feelings don't matter one bit in this, as she is meant only to please.

Exactly. And so insidious is this compulsion that they don't even realize they are doing it...

Are you calling me a hottie? =P God, that's so degrading. Make me sound like an American Bimbo. Garrrgh.

What's wrong with an American Bimbo? They have their place. ;) But, seriously, they are trying to draw you out Jaded. To see what you're made of. Let go of your pride and join in.

I've just been reading half the things posted here, honestly Rosa, I had a good impression of you...

I admit that I thought of the earlier posts as a bit brutal as well, but in not reading because of your anger, you're missing out.

Enough chiding of Jaded... I am not trying to hurt you. Merely open your eyes a bit.

Notice the subject's clever insinuations of ingnorance towards motive.

Perhaps the subject is unaware of this as well. We do things for reasons known not even to ourselves... at times...


I was tempted to respond to some of Jenyar's posts, but they seem to deal with love and the nature of true love... I'll hold off in case it turns elsewhere.

Your arguments are not arguments but just long lines of gibberish strung together by something resembling punctuation.

I disagree. Look closer. Remove yourself from the picture and see what she's trying to say about stereotypical behavior. You may not be the ideal of the idea she's putting forth, but your responses echo her mockery. Seek this out within yourself and eradicate it if it offends you. Gendanken has a brutal way of pointing this out, and most likely doesn't care if you succeed or not. (Ok, I said I was done chiding... That's the last one I promise.)

If the man himself thinks of his behaviour as disrespectful -- why does he do it then? Because he hates the woman? Women in general? Himself? Because he simply lacks all tact?
If you know that you are being disrespectful, then you should ask yourself *why* you are doing it?

Because so often, that very trait is rewarded by women. A woman (stereotypical...) feels validated by contempt. The idea of "Anyone who loves me is not worth loving." They are often self-critical and seek validation of that self-criticism. Yet, at the same time they want to be cajoled and told that they don't look fat in those pants. An enigma is woman. A furious lashing between opposite ideals.

It is a subtle thing. You can't just go out and call a woman a bitch and degrade her and expect nookie (well, in most cases, there are some...). It is a delicate art that women demand from their men. Neither too much of one nor too much of the other. Balancing on the edge of the sword. Or perhaps even the point of the sword.

Men are not delicate (stereotypically), we are blatant and crude in our affairs (especially emotional). It is a difficult thing to maintain the balance required. Many have been driven mad by it.

Anything beats chatting, its a low art fit for vegetables.

We cannot wholely give up our chatty nature. It does serve a purpose. It's just important to realize what that purpose is. Don't try to make it more than it is.

Urgh, this getting long. I've removed several points that were not entirely conducive to discussion. Perhaps I should remove the chiding as well? No, I'll leave it in in hopes that Jaded might be made to understand.

I'll just add one more thing. Bonobo's and Chimp (and others) sexual behavior. Chimps have sex all day every day. (They take occasional breaks of course...) It is another reinforcement of the social instinct. Many times there is not even penetration but some times there is. What are we to make of this. Are women bestial because they have evolved to hide their fertility. That they can be impregnated practically at any time? It is a trick of the body. An evolutionary tactic. And it works rather well.

By the way, did you know that women are more likely to get pregnant while cheating on their mate? They are "hotter" and "wetter". Another evolutionary tactic.

I don't understand what you're saying about primitive cultures and their taboos and such, Rosa. Are you saying that primitive cultures are chaste because of taboos? What about the South Pacific Islanders, The Bari tribe in South America? And those kooky kats, the mangaians. (I have an article on the Bari I wanted to throw in, but this is too long so I'll fill it in later.)

Savages get it on like bunnies. Sometimes...

The Mangaian link reminds me of the irony in men reaching their sexual peak at 17 or so while women hit theirs in their mid 30s... Funny old thing evolution, what?

Nobody wants to be with a beast -- but at the same time the modern condition to have a relationship makes the woman to become a beast.
Not to mention the brute of a man - he's not the one getting pregnant, he does not have the mother instinct, he can distance himself from the responsibility. It's a damn scary thought. The problem is not in not wanting to be with a beast, it's in being comfortable being a beast.

To answer your question: In an ideal case, I think both should first know what they want out of the relationship and have compatible views on having children. And have sex only *after* they have figured out whether what they have is the real thing or not.
I think even more than that is necessary. At the beginning of a relationship, especially one where the chemistry is hot, people want to ge comfortable with each other physically first - they accept the other person's personality on intuition (and physical clues) at that point. The "real thing" can be just a mental construction based on wishful thinking and mutual attraction. The only truly responsible option is to wait with intercourse until a promise has at least been made, and that promise has traditionally been made before the altar - marriage. Of course, that depends on what you consider to be the real thing, or true love. Otherwise you're just fooling yourself by making a physical commitment that isn't yet matched with a mental commitment.

Invert Nexus,

I think the most interesting people are those who don't give a shit about being interesting.

Yup, I think we can generalize the formula for personality traits thus:

Wanting to be xy makes one extremely un-xy.

Eg. Wanting to be cool makes one extremely uncool. Wanting to be a nerd makes one an un-nerd. &tc, &tc ...

Gendanken,


You didn't answer my question:
Do bonobos, chimpanzees etc. have abortions? Do they eat certain plants etc. with the purpose to cause a miscarrige?

I don't care what practices humans or animals perform, I don't consider any of them degenerated or not normal. (EDIT: That is, I don't cosider them degenerated or not normal in the sense of morality; as morality is arbitrary and depending on the society in question.)


I am only interested into what a female does to
1. an unborn in her body, 2. newborn.


I only consider it beastiness in a woman if killing (abortion) the offspring is well-planned ahead and considred as normal.

*shuts up and reads quietly*

Invert Nexus,

When I spoke of grooming oneself, I didn't say it's bad! I only said that it takes up a lot of time. So, there's less time for other acitvities -- like studying ...




Jenyar,


I think even more than that is necessary. At the beginning of a relationship, especially one where the chemistry is hot, people want to ge comfortable with each other physically first - they accept the other person's personality on intuition (and physical clues) at that point. The "real thing" can be just a mental construction based on wishful thinking and mutual attraction. The only truly responsible option is to wait with intercourse until a promise has at least been made, and that promise has traditionally been made before the altar - marriage. Of course, that depends on what you consider to be the real thing, or true love. Otherwise you're just fooling yourself by making a physical commitment that isn't yet matched with a mental commitment.

It is fascinating, in an depressing way, that we humans consider ourselves to be so reasonable and so rational -- and when it comes to things that matter most in our lives, all wisdom and all reasonability that we are otherwise so proud to proclaim, vanish into thin air. At, best, only traces of them are left.

"I followed my heart, I thought it was right," we hear ourselves say after the damage has been done. Fact is that we want things to be easy, and to make them so, we are most willing to bend our perception of reality.
It is not about controlling your instincts: it is about respecting them.

While not advocating abortion since I rally to no cause, a woman does have a right to her body.


To all women here:

Yes, we certainly have a right to our bodies. And we have the right to have abortions.

But I am wondering this: When you are about to have sex, and you know that if you should get pregnant, you will have to have an aboriton -- Doesn't knowing this cause you at least a little discomfort? Doesn't it give the sex at least a little bitterness?
How is a woman supposed to look forward to having sex if she knows that she may have to have an abortion because of it?

And later on, when it does happen, and she goes to have an abortion -- yes, we have the right to have an abortion we are told. But how does it feel? Do you feel happy, glad, lying in the operation room, having the fetus removed?

If it is a right -- are you proud of it? Are you happy about it?
One can certainly be happy about not being obliged to raise unwanted children.
But are you happy when the procedure actually takes place? Is it fun? Is it fun to know that this is what is awaiting you? Do you feel totally okay about it?

Namely, I think this is exactly why women become beasts: They are told it is okay to have an abortion, and that they must look forward to having sex.
In most relationships, having sex also implies a possible abortion -- looking forward to sex implies looking forward to have an abortion.

How do you do that? How do you manage to be so insensitive?

How is a woman then supposed to be happy in a relationship that includes sex, but excludes having children? Unless she becomes a beast, she can't stay in such a relationship.

It's because immediate gratification has become idolized, and I do mean idolized. When we submit to no higher moral than pleasure, choices like abortion become an inevitable necessity - a "law" of pleasure. By that law, women have the right to an abortion. And men have a "licence" to roam around. Freedom? More like freedom from responsibility!

Rosa:
You didn't answer my question:
Do bonobos, chimpanzees etc. have abortions? Do they eat certain plants etc. with the purpose to cause a miscarrige?
Do they have to?

For a species like the bonobo who only think in immediates, why would they?
Abortion is a technological luxury- its only you with your nose up thinking of it as degenerate.
And its only the stupid who plan to remedy a simple mistake not with a simple condom but with the needless complexeties of abortion.
I am only interested into what a female does to
1. an unborn in her body, 2. newborn.
For every death, 6-10 are born to replace it.
Malthus has it the population increases in geometric ratio to sustenance.
The planet is swollen with humans.

Its her unborn. Her newborn, not yours.


How do you do that? How do you manage to be so insensitive?

And now you've mixed up 'insensitive' with 'stupid'.

For the promiscuous who walks down a hall bloated with posters against HIV and goes home to watch an infected, crying dimwit warning the world about safe sex, and then this person knowing the consequences and risks yet still have unprotected sex killing both self and offspring..... is an idiot. Not insensitive.
You are being far too kind in calling this insensitivity when its blatant stupidity.

To all women here:

Have I blundered in where I'm not wanted? I shall part then. But first...

Animal abortion. Seems to me that I have heard of some animals eating certain plants that cause an abortion. The animal also has the ability (somewhat) to abort a pregnancy naturally through some unknown process. And, even if the child is born. Many animals will kill their infants if the conditions aren't "good" for them. Would you rather we allow a more chinese outlook? Outlaw abortion and practice infanticide instead?

In most relationships, having sex also implies a possible abortion -- looking forward to sex implies looking forward to have an abortion.

I disagree. In most relationships, a baby is the last thing they're thinking of when they get down on all fours and satisfy their lust. And in most cases, the decision to have an abortion is an agonizing affair.

Gendanken,


And its only the stupid who plan to remedy a simple mistake not with a simple condom but with the needless complexeties of abortion.

Contraceptives are not 100% safe. This is all I'm saying.
No matter what you use (apart from sterilization), you have to make your mind up what you will do if the contraceptive doesn't work.


Its her unborn. Her newborn, not yours.

This is the kind of argument that really pisses me off. Diverting attention. I don't care about other people's fetuses or babies.


What about when it comes to you, Gendanken? What about when it comes to me?
Do *you* feel perfectly okay about having an abortion? I don't feel okay having one. I'm not looking forward to one, and I'm not indifferent either -- even though the sexual education is trying to tell me that I should feel okay about it.


For the promiscuous who walks down a hall bloated with posters against HIV and goes home to watch an infected, crying dimwit warning the world about safe sex, and then this person knowing the consequences and risks yet still have unprotected sex killing both self and offspring..... is an idiot. Not insensitive.
You are being far too kind in calling this insensitivity when its blatant stupidity.

I am completely ruling out these people from my argument.

I am only interested into those that do use proper contraceptives, and the contraceptives don't work.
You may use both the pill and the condom -- but it's still not 100% safe. And you know it. You know that if you get pregnant inspite using contraceptives, you'll have to have an abortion. Doesn't this make you at least a bit uncomfortable?





Invert Nexus,

I disagree. In most relationships, a baby is the last thing they're thinking of when they get down on all fours and satisfy their lust.

*You*, the man, arent' thinking of it. But the woman most likely is. She knows that even inspite using contraceptives, she can still get pregnant.



And in most cases, the decision to have an abortion is an agonizing affair.


Why an agonizing affair? If it is so normal, so natural, if it is a RIGHT -- why then should it be an agonizing affair?

Invert:
I think others here have mentioned the way women are "different". That they focus on more emotional affairs than hands-on practical application. But, at the same time, many men are unable to organize themselves in the aspects that a woman (in her standard role) excels.= Running the home, keeping track of the kids, etc... You can name a long list of stereotypical womanly behavior that stereotypical man fail miserably in. Does this make them boring? To a man who can't envision that level of awareness it does. And women who are adept in these womanly tasks are apt to chatter about them. How much more boring can you get? If you're not interested that is...
Yet in his exellence he uncovers nature's secrets and puts a man on the moon. Her excellence ensures the diapers get changed and toilets won't clog.

Lastly, he can be a beastly bore as well but at least he minds his own business.

But, women are far from boring to the opposite sex when the sexes meet in their biologic manner. Maybe immediately after the fact, they become boring once again. Perhaps even more boring because of the "pillow talk" while the man would rather just go to sleep.

Boredom, I'm sure you know, fizzles as soon as the genitals flair.
I even have a mind to say monogamy is burglary for some reason- the importance placed on loyalty is beneficial short term as it gives humans incentive to breed responsiblty but with time it...... suffocates people.
Kills the spirit.
No?

Gend: Three: Perfect prey. ”


Mating ritual. Again, stereotypes. The woman should be docile and subject to the beastly intentions of the man. In fact, many believe they shouldn't even enjoy it. It should be a chore, just like any other.


Then why do people want to gouge her eyes out, yet not wish to mate with her?
She is something like the Jew- a group of presumably humble people but inside there lurks a calculating serpent you wish to stamp out with both feet.

You yourself had experience with this type that hides its viciousness behind complacency- this is why the female is perfect prey, my dear.

And so insidious is this compulsion that they don't even realize they are doing it...

D.o.u.b.l.e.s.p.e.a.k

Rosa:
Your argument is null and void considering its narrowness:
In most relationships, having sex also implies a possible abortion -- looking forward to sex implies looking forward to have an abortion. - Rosa

You are being far to extreme and to further it, you aggravate it with blatant assumptions.
You commented on bonobos, yet knew nothing about them.
What's more invertebrates of all kinds practice cannibalism of their young- you find these practices all across the rest of the animal kingdom from the anthropod to the mammal.
Do you realize sometimes a gorilla mother will kill her child to mate again or her mate will kill her child to force her in mating again?
Invert has pointed some of this out as well.

Contraceptives are not 100% safe. This is all I'm saying.
No matter what you use (apart from sterilization), you have to make your mind up what you will do if the contraceptive doesn't work.


No, you are saying that abortion is 'degenerate'.
And it colors your abilities to understand what we're saying here.

This is the kind of argument that really pisses me off. Diverting attention. I don't care about other people's fetuses or babies.
Diverting attention is personalizing things when one's pissy.

Like so:
What about when it comes to you, Gendanken? What about when it comes to me?
Do *you* feel perfectly okay about having an abortion? I don't feel okay having one. I'm not looking forward to one, and I'm not indifferent either -- even though the sexual education is trying to tell me that I should feel okay about it.
See?

To wit- anyone here when pressed by adverstity would kill to save their own life.
Anyone saying otherwise is a liar. (I'm not including those in 'love' or protecting their young)
Sexual health is the privelege of those responsible in their lifestyles, but nothing is foolproof. You've said as much.
If pregnancy means detriment to these cautious few, then only those tight enough to sacrifice needlessly despite their caution have all the freedom in the world to destroy themselves with their morals.

Nuff said.

*stops her intensive accompanying of the converation for a moment and ponders*

Isn't this going off topic?

Isn't this going off topic?
Not really.

I still have you in a chokehold, mon cherry.

*checks self* Not really ma cheri.

And you are rather off topic. New borns and who's got the right the who's body is really not what it's all about.

You have a point, Jaded. The thread was hijacked earlier from being direct to the beastliness of women. Now would you have us return to being direct? Perhaps the beastliness of women is somehow related to the uselessness of being direct in romantic affairs? I was thinking the exact same thing as you concerning abortions, though.

Please, Jaded, take control and point us in the right direction. Surely we can direct our prodigious brains (:D) towards the topic. We just need a little gentle (or not so gentle) guidance upon occasion.

Lastly, he can be a beastly bore as well but at least he minds his own business.

Doublespeak? Or paranoid misunderstanding on my part? Is this telling me to butt out?

I'll go with it being paranoid for now. :p This is quite insightful. Man is bored by woman when she tries to involve him in things that are not his business. Woman also bores man when she involves herself in things that are not her business. But, this is not to say that a woman's business cannot be other than her stereotypical role. If she is truly interested in something that might be considered man's business, then it becomes her business as well