Got an insight yesterday. Been chatting with an athiest here about the Big Bang
He agreed that science doen't know, can't know what came before, or what caused BB. so he agreed with that agnostic confession

Later i was thinking about it and realized that also we do not know at ALL what came bfore our LIFE

let me pose this question to you'll. does ANYone reading this KNOW what happened before your life? i am not talking about being in the womb etc. i mean before you were conceived?

So that is commensurate with the not-knowing of what came before the birth of the universe isn't it?

what does this mean do you feel?

Been chatting with an athiest here about the Big Bang
He agreed that science doen't know, can't know what came before, or what caused BB.

That's silly! We already know what caused the Big Bang. We know that the Universe has enough Mass that its expansion will eventually be pulled back by the accumulated force of Gravity and that the Universe will inevitably crash back upon itself. Boom!

And how do we know it happened more than once? We just need to look at our own Solar System. To many various elements and especially too many heavy elments to have been created in just the 5 Billion years since the Big Bang. We live in the dirty residue of the Explosion of the Last Universe before This Universe.

Science already has all the Data. The Model I just presented is a Working Model. The only thing lacking is photographic evidence.

let me pose this question to you'll. does ANYone reading this KNOW what happened before your life? i am not talking about being in the womb etc. i mean before you were conceived?



Many people believe in Reincarnation. They use Reincarnation to explain away the knowledge that some people have of the lives of people who had lived before they were born. However, there are other possible spiritual explanations. Souls of the Dead may simply gift certain individuals with Packets of Memory. We know that all of our own personal memories are in the first person, that is, we always remember in terms of "I did this, and I did that". So, when we receive a Memory Packet from a deceased soul, it also plays back in terms of "I did this and I did that". It becomes easy for a person to believe that the past life he is viewing was his own. A silly mistake really. When you read an autobiography written in the first person, you don't fall into the mistake of thinking that just because the book says "I" "I" "I" that the book was actually written by yourself. But apparently when you are given another person's memory, the illusion of "I"ness just seems too real and the delusional explanation in terms of Reincarnation becomes the result.

But, many people have cultivated the skill of attracting to themselves these Memory Packets from the dead. Sometimes it can be quite a collection. suppose there is a man who experienced the Life Memories of 10 Dead Souls and then he himself dies. Somebody who would experience his Life Memory would in effect be downloading 11 Life Memories.

Got an insight yesterday. Been chatting with an athiest here about the Big Bang
He agreed that science doen't know, can't know what came before, or what caused BB. so he agreed with that agnostic confession

Later i was thinking about it and realized that also we do not know at ALL what came bfore our LIFE

let me pose this question to you'll. does ANYone reading this KNOW what happened before your life? i am not talking about being in the womb etc. i mean before you were conceived?

So that is commensurate with the not-knowing of what came before the birth of the universe isn't it?

what does this mean do you feel?
If that were the case we might all just as well believe Genesis as opposed to all the scientific evidence which conclusively shows that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, the Universe is 13.7 billion years old and so on.

But that is not the case, since you are surrounded on all sides, duendy, by the evidence of existence before your life - not least your own parents and family.

So on the basic level we all work on the basic assumption that the evidence of everything we see before our eyes shows considerably the existence of items before our lifetimes began.

The reason this is completely incommensurate with the Big Bang is that it is evidence of any kind of existence before the Big Bang is simply not available. Don't forget that the creation of the Universe is not just the creation of the galaxies, stars, planets and dust clouds, but also the space they exist in, and the time dimension which gives us an illusion of past and future.

One definition of the Big Bang, as in a Black Hole, is a singularity. A singularity, conventionally a dimensionless space that contains mass at infinite density, is where the current laws of physics break down. At the very least there is no way to reconcile an infinite density with physical reality. So it's possible that ultimate knowledge of the cause of the Big Bang will remain forever unknowable. Even though there is a lot of speculation and hypothesising about zero point energy and world sheets, it's probable that no test can be devised to settle the matter one way or another.

So, you see, there really isn't any similarity at all between the "before" of the Big Bang and the before that occurred before your lifetime.

thanks for alaborating of BB, but you have misunderstood what i mean somewhat. so let me state it a bit cleaerer

i KNOW that before i was born that this earth was here, as was my parents and before them there's etc etc. and i am not a creationist. i am quite happy with Earth being billions of years old. OK

I am aware the pre-BB therer apparently was no space and time, so to even ask what came 'before' BB is a contradiction

However what i am saying is that we really dont know what we WERE of where we came FORM before we were born. as we don't know what was before BB

IF you are a physicalist and believe that 'you'= 'product from complex matter', and that's that, then this question i am asking may probably seem nonesensical. but i am seeing a MYSTERY that connects 'before BB' and 'before life'

when we look at mythologies, the patriarcahl version is that a 'God' creates the world out of 'nothing' 'ex nihilo'....whilst Goddsss mythology has it that all creation including light springs from 'darkness/void' which isn't nothing as in nothing there, but rather from CHAOS which is creatrix

so are we to assume that the BB event is not connected to 'now'? ie., are to assume that time and space as we know it is the same after physical death, or before physical birth? or is time and space something we learn AFTEr we are born?

I created the universe when I got conscious of my body - the physical existence. Before the Big Boom there was another universe.
It never started and it never stops. The universe is a physical manifestation of God, forever breathing.

Duendy,


I am aware the pre-BB therer apparently was no space and time, so to even ask what came 'before' BB is a contradiction


Nobody has a firm grip on what time actually is. It's been poised as 4th
dimension bound x, y, & z, it's been poised as a dimension intersecting
(but not bound) to x, y, & z, and it's been poised as a strange multi-
directional event (one direction is normal time and the other direction
is probability time) that determines the most probable outcome of matter
and 'makes it so'.

With space, pre-BB all the space of our unverse was in one of the following
states:

* Inflation
* Deflation

Right before the BB, space was in a state of maximal deflation (it still
existed nonetheless).


However what i am saying is that we really dont know what we WERE of where we came FORM before we were born. as we don't know what was before BB


Sperm & eggs? I am not sure the first part of the question is understood.
The BB is not a one time deal. It's cyclical. Inflate, Deflate, Inflate, Deflate,
Inflate Deflate... the universe as we know it is simply somewhere between
maximal inflation and deflation. Consequently a Big Bang is rapid inflation
after maximmal deflation has occured.


...but i am seeing a MYSTERY that connects 'before BB' and 'before life'


The human brain is capable of connecting llamas to sun spots. That's
why we have to temper our mental interpretation with fact. If there is
a mystery seen however, then the first step is definine what that is (it
is not clear to me).


when we look at mythologies, the patriarcahl version is that a 'God' creates the world out of 'nothing' 'ex nihilo'....whilst Goddsss mythology has it that all creation including light springs from 'darkness/void' which isn't nothing as in nothing there, but rather from CHAOS which is creatrix


Mythology is a great way to examine human thought. It also provides
fun entertainment from time to time. Beyond that, it's just fantasy.


so are we to assume that the BB event is not connected to 'now'? ie., are to assume that time and space as we know it is the same after physical death, or before physical birth? or is time and space something we learn AFTEr we are born?

I am not sure what kind of connection is being alluded to. Something
more specific will have to be asserted. Space / time exist whether a
life form on earth is born or dies.

The BB is only one of many possible explanations for the universe

The BB is only one of many possible explanations for the universe

But you couldn't think of any, right?

The BB is only one of many possible explanations for the universe

It's the only one with evidence to back it up.

The BB is only one of many possible explanations for the universe

It's the only one with evidence to back it up.

And how do we know it happened more than once? We just need to look at our own Solar System. To many various elements and especially too many heavy elments to have been created in just the 5 Billion years since the Big Bang. We live in the dirty residue of the Explosion of the Last Universe before This Universe.

I have never heard of this before Leo. Where was this information found?

I have never heard of this before Leo. Where was this information found? I've been following the Scientific Journals for years. The Theory was in the bag a few years ago when Scientist decided that the 'quirk' had enough mass and was in great enough quantity that it finally tipped the scales proving that the Universe would have enough Mass so that the Gravitational Pull would be sufficient to stop the Universe's Expansion and instigate a Contraction. The rest is common sense. The Universe would collapse upon itself causing a great deal of heat which would create that great cloud of Big Bang Radiation, but the tremendous Mass of the former Universe collapsing would also create a Bounce of the old Heavy Matter, not all of which would be atomically evaporated in the Explosion... thus the high distribution of Heavy Elements even in young star systems that still burn from the fusion of the lightest gases.

Also, the Hindu Sages have written in the Rig Vedas that the Universe goes in cycles of Expansion, Contraction, collapse and Expansion again. So I kept my eyes on the Research until I saw the 'Theory' confirmed.

Duendy,



Nobody has a firm grip on what time actually is.

d__Good observation, and info. Let's keep this formly in mind as we proceed.

It's been poised as 4th
dimension bound x, y, & z, it's been poised as a dimension intersecting
(but not bound) to x, y, & z, and it's been poised as a strange multi-
directional event (one direction is normal time and the other direction
is probability time) that determines the most probable outcome of matter
and 'makes it so'.

d__which is a lot of letters really and ideas. but what it IS we do not know. agreed?

With space, pre-BB all the space of our unverse was in one of the following
states:

* Inflation
* Deflation

Right before the BB, space was in a state of maximal deflation (it still
existed nonetheless).

d__So are you seeing it as a cyclic or spiral phenomenon. That afterr BB we get Big Contraction, then BB etc......?


Sperm & eggs?

d__your reply here means that that is what you are preuming 'you' me' etc WERE BEFORE we were born. But isn't it so that sperm and eggs have to MEEt before you are conceived? i am on about BEFORE that. what is you before that. Do you know, or.....?

I am not sure the first part of the question is understood.
The BB is not a one time deal. It's cyclical. Inflate, Deflate, Inflate, Deflate,
Inflate Deflate... the universe as we know it is simply somewhere between
maximal inflation and deflation. Consequently a Big Bang is rapid inflation
after maximmal deflation has occured.

d__So you seem to be seeing it as a continual outflation, inflation, ad infinitum? is this what the materialistic scientists think too?

The human brain is capable of connecting llamas to sun spots. That's
why we have to temper our mental interpretation with fact. If there is
a mystery seen however, then the first step is definine what that is (it
is not clear to me).

d__put it this way, the pre-patriarchal, pre-literate ancestors of our species saw associations between things, The roots of myth show this. So you are being a bit superior here claiming that that is wrong and modern science is right, right?...that UNLESS one is a professional scientist one cant wonder or voice this wonder, and explore about things, cause it wont be authentic--as the scientists exploration is.
i don't agree.

Mythology is a great way to examine human thought. It also provides
fun entertainment from time to time. Beyond that, it's just fantasy.

d__wrong. it is much more than that. the exploration of it goes to the very roots. modern science is a myth. your very foundations of mathemtaics and the way you view the universe is mythic. is an INTERPRETAION. one can see how it emerges, and how it pushes away or repressess 'the underworld' or what science calls 'the unconscious'.

I am not sure what kind of connection is being alluded to. Something
more specific will have to be asserted. Space / time exist whether a
life form on earth is born or dies.

What i mean is. We do not know what came before BB. we also don't know what came before our life (and what happens when we die. we REALLY DO KNOW KNOW do we? if i am wrong, then challenge that.
So, from there i am trying to explore a CONNECTION between before BB and before Life. is this connection 'before time and space'? for if time and speace are particular to how we relate to reality when we are alive (though as spiritual experiencers will tell you, nme included, speace and time seem very flexible!) then BEFORe being alive and after therer wont be a linear historical separation between before BB abd before life

However what i am saying is that we really dont know what we WERE of where we came FORM before we were born. as we don't know what was before BB

IF you are a physicalist and believe that 'you'= 'product from complex matter', and that's that, then this question i am asking may probably seem nonesensical. but i am seeing a MYSTERY that connects 'before BB' and 'before life'Oh, well, now you put it like that, I've actually had similar thoughts myself. I'm not sure if this should be in Religion or Philosophy perhaps!

Consciousness is the ultimate Mystery, and Consciousness itself certainly seems to arise out of nothing with no evidence of what came before (I'm sorry I simply don't believe in "past life regression").

Leo, food for thought, but I believe that a Big Crunch acts in exactly the same way as a black hole and there is something in A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking about how everything that enters a black hole is lost forever - that even in the event of a black hole evaporating, there is no conceivable way to determine the nature of the material that formed the black hole in the first place. So I don't believe it is possible for the heavy elements you refer to retaining such structure and remain in this Universe as evidence of the last Universe.

Oh, well, now you put it like that, I've actually had similar thoughts myself. I'm not sure if this should be in Religion or Philosophy perhaps!

Consciousness is the ultimate Mystery, and Consciousness itself certainly seems to arise out of nothing with no evidence of what came before

d__so. WE AGREE! THERE, we agree don't we. me, who talks about Goddess and stuff and you the scientist, or one who only trusts porrofs from science. hmmmmm good.
But i also propose that consciousness is ALAYs WITh matter. That therer is no such thing as them being apart.

(I'm sorry I simply don't believe in "past life regression").

d__errrrr, you have brought that into this debate not me. what does it have to do with what we are talkin about?

Leo, food for thought, but I believe that a Big Crunch acts in exactly the same way as a black hole and there is something in A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking about how everything that enters a black hole is lost forever - that even in the event of a black hole evaporating, there is no conceivable way to determine the nature of the material that formed the black hole in the first place. So I don't believe it is possible for the heavy elements you refer to retaining such structure and remain in this Universe as evidence of the last Universe.

CCCCCCC)))))))}}}}}}}}

but the tremendous Mass of the former Universe collapsing would also create a Bounce of the old Heavy Matter, not all of which would be atomically evaporated in the Explosion...

Thanks Leo. I think it was 'quark' that was being reffered to and not 'quirk' :).
The quote part above is specifically what I don't quite understand. When
the universe is maximally deflated, I have never seen any model showing
that old matter would somehow survive. I have seen a couple of models
that suggest when the first primary inflation occurs a bunch of matter and
anitimatter are generated and cancel each other out to varying degrees;
however, these models never postulated that information from the last
universe was in any way preserved and translated into the new one. Is
there any cosmology media that I can view that has more information on
on matter presevation?

d__Good observation, and info. Let's keep this formly in mind as we proceed.


Ok.


d__which is a lot of letters really and ideas. but what it IS we do not know. agreed?


I would assert that at least one of the models of what time is may be
pretty close to the real thing. The realy trouble is descerning which one.
Once we have the technology to test some more hypothesis regarding
time, the correct model (probably with some modifications) will make itself
evident.


d__So are you seeing it as a cyclic or spiral phenomenon. That afterr BB we get Big Contraction, then BB etc......?


I am not sure what is meant by spiral here; however, current models show
it being cyclic. M-thery shows what's going on outside our universe and
how it may affect a cycle; however, that is a little beyond the scope of
our universe.


d__your reply here means that that is what you are preuming 'you' me' etc WERE BEFORE we were born. But isn't it so that sperm and eggs have to MEEt before you are conceived? i am on about BEFORE that. what is you before that. Do you know, or.....?


We have to have a clear definition of what we mean by 'YOU' in this
question. I'll await definition and then respond.


d__So you seem to be seeing it as a continual outflation, inflation, ad infinitum? is this what the materialistic scientists think too?


This is the most common model. There are more complex models involved
with M-theory. I don't know what 'materialistic' scientists think. It's not
a matter of opinion, it's just what can be modeled with the data that
current is available.


d__put it this way, the pre-patriarchal, pre-literate ancestors of our species saw associations between things, The roots of myth show this. So you are being a bit superior here claiming that that is wrong and modern science is right, right?...that UNLESS one is a professional scientist one cant wonder or voice this wonder, and explore about things, cause it wont be authentic--as the scientists exploration is.
i don't agree.


Interpretation is a function of the human brain and it's part of a survival
mechanism we have. I agree the roots of myth show the various
interpretations that our ancestors have had about life. When we campare
the assertions of mythology and the assertions of science, it becomes clear
that one group of assertions has a much higher alignment to fact than the
other. As much as we may or may not like this, it is what it is.

In general whenever an event occurs people interpret it in many different
ways. For example in my previous response I stated:

"The human brain is capable of connecting llamas to sun spots. That's
why we have to temper our mental interpretation with fact. If there is
a mystery seen however, then the first step is definine what that is (it
is not clear to me)."

And the response I received was:

"So you are being a bit superior here claiming that that is wrong and modern science is right, right?...that UNLESS one is a professional scientist one cant wonder or voice this wonder, and explore about things, cause it wont be authentic--as the scientists exploration is.

The response is defensive and not aligned to what my original post stated.
What can be seen is that my post was interpreted as a threat and met
with defensiveness.


d__wrong. it is much more than that. the exploration of it goes to the very roots. modern science is a myth. your very foundations of mathemtaics and the way you view the universe is mythic. is an INTERPRETAION. one can see how it emerges, and how it pushes away or repressess 'the underworld' or what science calls 'the unconscious'.


If modern science were a myth then this post would never be seen on
that 1-3.x ghz computer nearby (this is a contradiction of assertion vs.
fact). You are very correct about something... science results in
an interprtation much as mythology does. Amidst all the interpretation there
is fact and science has always been much closer aligned to fact than
mythology.

What i mean is. We do not know what came before BB. we also don't know what came before our life (and what happens when we die. we REALLY DO KNOW KNOW do we? if i am wrong, then challenge that.
So, from there i am trying to explore a CONNECTION between before BB and before Life. is this connection 'before time and space'? for if time and speace are particular to how we relate to reality when we are alive (though as spiritual experiencers will tell you, nme included, speace and time seem very flexible!) then BEFORe being alive and after therer wont be a linear historical separation between before BB abd before life

The behavior of the universe suggests that what came before that BB
was the last BB. What came before that BB was another BB and so on.
I know there were dinosaurs roaming the earth long before I existed.
When I die, I know that I will decompose and I know how and why. I know
that in 500 million years, our oceans will be so hot that they will boil.
Clearly I have knowledge about what transpired before my life and what will
transpire after it.

Thanks for going into more detail about the connection that is being explored.
I unfortunately do not understand it yet. Maybe we can approach this
from a story format (tell me how you became interested in exploring the
connection). This may help the concept be understood. Additionally, the
following assertions may help in the exploration:

* There is no evidence to suggest that 'nothing' (the concept) exists.
* Space & time are flexible (literally). Black holes demonstrate this.
* If time is bound exclusively to our unverise, then outside of it all
inflations and deflations exist simultaneously (a viewer would see this
as a big blob). M-theory is not a strong supporter of this model and I
personally predict that contradictions will be found in the future.

Ok.



I would assert that at least one of the models of what time is may be
pretty close to the real thing. The realy trouble is descerning which one.
Once we have the technology to test some more hypothesis regarding
time, the correct model (probably with some modifications) will make itself
evident.
d__but does this 'model' cover it all?....i don't think so. a model is that--a model. a persepctive, it can't presume to know it 'all'. also, a model ABOUt time and experiential FEELINg of time and ternity is different. i don't have to say 'isn't it?'


I am not sure what is meant by spiral here;

d__i am being associatively metaphoric. 'circular' for me as a symbol of dynamic continuum is a little static-ish. rather, spiral, is more dynamic as it is circular yet evolves

however, current models show
it being cyclic. M-thery shows what's going on outside our universe and
how it may affect a cycle; however, that is a little beyond the scope of
our universe.

d__-'outside' our universe is quite mindblowin isn't it? the very UNIVERSe is mindblowin enough. but i am interested to hear more about that!

We have to have a clear definition of what we mean by 'YOU' in this
question. I'll await definition and then respond.

d__ok....'you' would include what you like and dislike. your looks, your aspirations. our beliefs, character. all what you think you is. if you have had hallucinogenic experience or any mnatrual Big Experience, then you might have had insight that what you thought 'you' was/is' is from another persepctive 'limited'...i.e you may exp[erience sense of time and speace differently. might like things you hadn't before and hate things you hadn't before. you may feel expanded and merge with things, etc etc
so, when 'you' die, what then?

This is the most common model. There are more complex models involved
with M-theory. I don't know what 'materialistic' scientists think. It's not
a matter of opinion, it's just what can be modeled with the data that
current is available.

d__fgorgot what i asked for that bit....

Interpretation is a function of the human brain and it's part of a survival
mechanism we have. I agree the roots of myth show the various
interpretations that our ancestors have had about life. When we campare
the assertions of mythology and the assertions of science, it becomes clear
that one group of assertions has a much higher alignment to fact than the
other. As much as we may or may not like this, it is what it is.

d__but i dont see that. alright i understand science uses math and creates techmology that wasn't around in our past, bt regarding feeling of being part of Nature, and not having the modern sense of alienation is what i am referring to. 'facts' is one thing, REALITy another.

In general whenever an event occurs people interpret it in many different
ways. For example in my previous response I stated:

"The human brain is capable of connecting llamas to sun spots. That's
why we have to temper our mental interpretation with fact. If there is
a mystery seen however, then the first step is definine what that is (it
is not clear to me)."

And the response I received was:

"So you are being a bit superior here claiming that that is wrong and modern science is right, right?...that UNLESS one is a professional scientist one cant wonder or voice this wonder, and explore about things, cause it wont be authentic--as the scientists exploration is.

The response is defensive and not aligned to what my original post stated.
What can be seen is that my post was interpreted as a threat and met
with defensiveness.

d__haha..and that is YOUR interpreation. i am straight about this. you offered an incondruous example as an example of ancient mythic associative feeling and thinking. thus i assumed you were right off all insight of our ancestors. which is naive.
iwonder if you like poetry. do you see any insight in it?

If modern science were a myth then this post would never be seen on
that 1-3.x ghz computer nearby (this is a contradiction of assertion vs.
fact).

d__so is the criteria for science's philosphical rightness in the technology it produces

You are very correct about something... science results in
an interprtation much as mythology does. Amidst all the interpretation there
is fact and science has always been much closer aligned to fact than
mythology.

d__to alighned fact? but again we are with 'facts'. this is why i am against mechanical science. don't know if you've read Chrales dicken's novel, 'Hard Times'? well it begins with a character, 'Mr Gradgrind' saying 'Facts, facts, facts"...Dickens was revealing the emerging Industrial fascist ethic. where 'facts' overbear FEELING. the sense of being WITH Nature, rather than a product of it, as in a machine.


The behavior of the universe suggests that what came before that BB
was the last BB. What came before that BB was another BB and so on.
I know there were dinosaurs roaming the earth long before I existed.
When I die, I know that I will decompose and I know how and why. I know
that in 500 million years, our oceans will be so hot that they will boil.
Clearly I have knowledge about what transpired before my life and what will
transpire after it.

d__but that is time and space isn't it. us looking back at times linear progress through space? I am meaning 'before BB and Life as also beyond time and space. beyond the abstracted understanding of 'time' and 'space'

Thanks for going into more detail about the connection that is being explored.
I unfortunately do not understand it yet. Maybe we can approach this
from a story format (tell me how you became interested in exploring the
connection). This may help the concept be understood. Additionally, the
following assertions may help in the exploration:

d__well i had been chatting with Silas. and he mentioned about BB, and later i got an insight about what was before it and before life. i know that we just didn't know either. this made me see a connective mystery between science and religous exploration.
i have a great interest in Goddess, and how prepatriarchal mythology doesn't split matter from spirit/consciousness. I often hear athiests saying they reject 'God' yet not seem to mention of ackowledge that it was the 'God' people who oppressed Goddess/Nature
Goddess is embodied Earth and universe, so, unlike the 'god' idea of ceation from 'nothing'--as in A creator 'DOING' it, with Goddess she is the darkness/void/crearix/chaos from which--in that mythology--all, even light, springs forth from..spiralically, eternally

* There is no evidence to suggest that 'nothing' (the concept) exists.
* Space & time are flexible (literally). Black holes demonstrate this.
* If time is bound exclusively to our unverise, then outside of it all
inflations and deflations exist simultaneously (a viewer would see this
as a big blob). M-theory is not a strong supporter of this model and I
personally predict that contradictions will be found in the future.

so do I)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

d__but does this 'model' cover it all?....i don't think so. a model is that--a model. a persepctive, it can't presume to know it 'all'. also, a model ABOUt time and experiential FEELINg of time and ternity is different. i don't have to say 'isn't it?'


No current model can cover it all. Some future model may. Model's of time
and human emotional perception are from two different fields, hence they
are different (as you have correctly pointed out).


d__i am being associatively metaphoric. 'circular' for me as a symbol of dynamic continuum is a little static-ish. rather, spiral, is more dynamic as it is circular yet evolves


I see, kind of like the 4 primary seasons on Earth. They change over time.
While 'cylical' doesn't exclude change I can see how 'spiral' symbolically
includes it and is aesthetically more attractive.


d__-'outside' our universe is quite mindblowin isn't it? the very UNIVERSe is mindblowin enough. but i am interested to hear more about that!


Yep, it's really cool stuff. People are still exploring it all and keeping abreast
with current cosomology events can help satisfy that interest.


d__ok....'you' would include what you like and dislike. your looks, your aspirations. our beliefs, character. all what you think you is. if you have had hallucinogenic experience or any mnatrual Big Experience, then you might have had insight that what you thought 'you' was/is' is from another persepctive 'limited'...i.e you may exp[erience sense of time and speace differently. might like things you hadn't before and hate things you hadn't before. you may feel expanded and merge with things, etc etc
so, when 'you' die, what then?


Ahhh, in this case 'YOU' seems to be referring as sentience / conciousness.
In this scenario, 'YOU' is the result of a complex network of chemial and
electrical impulses (the brain). There is evidence that supports this and
no evidence that contradicts it. Before that brain goes live, 'YOU' does
not exist. After all activity in the brain ceases, 'YOU' does not exist. I
hope this makes sense.


d__but i dont see that. alright i understand science uses math and creates techmology that wasn't around in our past, bt regarding feeling of being part of Nature, and not having the modern sense of alienation is what i am referring to. 'facts' is one thing, REALITy another.


I think I understand what is being expressed here. If we're talking about
feeling alienated from nature then this is more of the result of how we
evolved (as a species) and the environment we are in. Living in high rises,
programming computers, maximizing productivity, stock markets, ... these
are all human inventions. As a species we have an inherent satisfaction
with hunting and gathering (farming). Of course we have created an artificial
environment for ourselves and many people feel out of sync with nature. In
the past few hundred years we've introduced increadible environmental
pressures on ourselves and are self-focusing natural selection towards
modern life. Those who cannot adapt will be unhappy and less likely to
procreate. Those who can will be happy and more likely to procreate.

On a sidenote, a fact and reality are one in the same. Reality shows us
how things are (the fact). If we choose to accept something else as
true then reality at some point may come and contradict our acceptance.
If I believe that I cannot be harmed by fire then reality would contradict
my belief the moment I stepped into a raging fire.


"So you are being a bit superior here claiming that that is wrong and modern science is right, right?...that UNLESS one is a professional scientist one cant wonder or voice this wonder, and explore about things, cause it wont be authentic--as the scientists exploration is.

The response is defensive and not aligned to what my original post stated.
What can be seen is that my post was interpreted as a threat and met
with defensiveness.


d__haha..and that is YOUR interpreation. i am straight about this. you offered an incondruous example as an example of ancient mythic associative feeling and thinking. thus i assumed you were right off all insight of our ancestors. which is naive.
iwonder if you like poetry. do you see any insight in it?


And one of our interpretations is closer aligned to the truth (good ol'
facts / reality). It's interesting to note that people with better alignment
tend to have a natural advantage in today's science-tempered culture.
In the time of crusades (or equivelant), this may have been a disadvantage.
I can just see Einstein being burned alive for heresy.

Poetry is a fun means for creative expression. I've written some for school.
It's a good exercise for the brain and can elicit some very satisfying
feelings.


d__so is the criteria for science's philosphical rightness in the technology it produces


Science enables us to experiment with reality, make observations of reality,
predict outcomes of reality, and create things in reality. Cell phones and
GPS units are inventions based on scientific knowledge. The fact that they
work as expected validates the 'correctness' of the models they are based
on. There is no phiolosphy involved here. Reality is what it is. Science is
the best tool we have to understand it and do stuff with it.


d__to alighned fact? but again we are with 'facts'. this is why i am against mechanical science. don't know if you've read Chrales dicken's novel, 'Hard Times'? well it begins with a character, 'Mr Gradgrind' saying 'Facts, facts, facts"...Dickens was revealing the emerging Industrial fascist ethic. where 'facts' overbear FEELING. the sense of being WITH Nature, rather than a product of it, as in a machine.


It's a fact that all information is processed by a person's emotional
center first. It's a fact that people have emotional needs (they want to feel
happy, they don't want to feel accused, they don't want feel heavy
obligation, they want to feel heard, etc.). It's a fact that people feel (it's
another survival mechanism).

The reason all this knowledge exists is because of science. It helps
us uncover why we feel the things we do, what needs we have, how
to fulfill those needs, and so on. It's is very empowering to feel something
and know exactly why that is felt.


d__but that is time and space isn't it. us looking back at times linear progress through space? I am meaning 'before BB and Life as also beyond time and space. beyond the abstracted understanding of 'time' and 'space'


I think I understand now. My response is that there may have never
been a 'before' (a starting point so to speak). M-theory suggests just
the opposite, that our cyclical universe was the result of a dimension in a
larger universe becoming unstable (lack of energy / false vaccum / something
else). Since then we could have had trillions of big bangs with our universe
(we don't have a way ot knowing at this point). Beyond the topmost
universe that we're linked to (and this is where things get weird), there are
assertions of an environment where bubbles of dimensions form top level
universes (an infinite number of them). There could be realities out there
(bound to other bubbles) which behave in manners that we have not
even conceived yet. Like I said, going outside our universe just gets weird.


d__well i had been chatting with Silas. and he mentioned about BB, and later i got an insight about what was before it and before life. i know that we just didn't know either. this made me see a connective mystery between science and religous exploration.
i have a great interest in Goddess, and how prepatriarchal mythology doesn't split matter from spirit/consciousness. I often hear athiests saying they reject 'God' yet not seem to mention of ackowledge that it was the 'God' people who oppressed Goddess/Nature
Goddess is embodied Earth and universe, so, unlike the 'god' idea of ceation from 'nothing'--as in A creator 'DOING' it, with Goddess she is the darkness/void/crearix/chaos from which--in that mythology--all, even light, springs forth from..spiralically, eternally


I think I understand. There is a concept of a 'Goddess' whom is a female
sentient entity and is quite literally the fabric of the universe. I hope you
find what you are looking for regarding the 'Goddess'. I would suggest looking
for evidence of the universe acting with sentience and I would be interested
to know the final results of the investigation.

Thanks Leo. I think it was 'quark' that was being reffered to and not 'quirk' :).
When the universe is maximally deflated, I have never seen any model showing that old matter would somehow survive. I have seen a couple of models
that suggest when the first primary inflation occurs a bunch of matter and
anitimatter are generated and cancel each other out to varying degrees;
however, these models never postulated that information from the last
universe was in any way preserved and translated into the new one. Is
there any cosmology media that I can view that has more information on
on matter presevation?

You are referring to theoretical models. We live in an actual universe that is strewn with Heavy Elements where they 'theoretically' do not belong. The easiest explanation is that all of the Conditions for the Big Bang were met before all of the last collapsing universe had quite melted down into the pure atomic stew, and so when the Big Explosion occurred, all that unassimulated matter was tossed out, giving us not a "Model" but our present mixed and dirty universe.

Oh, thanks for the 'quark' thing. I guess my way of remembering it was to think of quirk, and the memory tool turned out to be too insidious.

[QUOTE=Crunchy Cat]No current model can
cover it all. Some future model may.

d__No. i see it that ANY model can only ever BE A model. it can never represent the whole



Model's of time
and human emotional perception are from two different fields, hence they
are different (as you have correctly pointed out).

d__thanks

I see, kind of like the 4 primary seasons on Earth. They change over time.
While 'cylical' doesn't exclude change I can see how 'spiral' symbolically
includes it and is aesthetically more attractive.

d__apparently the image of the spiral is THe earliest discovered image!

Yep, it's really cool stuff. People are still exploring it all and keeping abreast
with current cosomology events can help satisfy that interest.

d__there was a fascinating serions about M-theory on Uk Tv a little while back

Ahhh, in this case 'YOU' seems to be referring as sentience / conciousness.
In this scenario, 'YOU' is the result of a complex network of chemial and
electrical impulses (the brain). There is evidence that supports this and
no evidence that contradicts it. Before that brain goes live, 'YOU' does
not exist. After all activity in the brain ceases, 'YOU' does not exist. I
hope this makes sense.

d__kind of. of course this thread is called before BB? and before Life? meaning..we just DO NOT KNOW. it is not certain. it is indeterminate, ambiguous. i feel in my heart of hearts that the real radcial revolution must come from us EMBRACING ambiguity

I think I understand what is being expressed here. If we're talking about
feeling alienated from nature then this is more of the result of how we
evolved (as a species) and the environment we are in. Living in high rises,
programming computers, maximizing productivity, stock markets, ... these
are all human inventions. As a species we have an inherent satisfaction
with hunting and gathering (farming). Of course we have created an artificial
environment for ourselves and many people feel out of sync with nature. In
the past few hundred years we've introduced increadible environmental
pressures on ourselves and are self-focusing natural selection towards
modern life. Those who cannot adapt will be unhappy and less likely to
procreate. Those who can will be happy and more likely to procreate.

d__ i see it more as deliberate patriarcahl oppression on the people. it is something really happening. it is alright to say and feel 'YES. i AM oppressed. this is NOT written into 'natrual evolution'!

On a sidenote, a fact and reality are one in the same. Reality shows us
how things are (the fact). If we choose to accept something else as
true then reality at some point may come and contradict our acceptance.
If I believe that I cannot be harmed by fire then reality would contradict
my belief the moment I stepped into a raging fire.

d__'facts' to m are cold hard things. unflexible and unorganic. sure they look alright set in stone, but REAL life is a breating thing which has sometimes short gasps. to reassure needs a loving outlook, not a factsheet

"So you are being a bit superior here claiming that that is wrong and modern science is right, right?...that UNLESS one is a professional scientist one cant wonder or voice this wonder, and explore about things, cause it wont be authentic--as the scientists exploration is.

The response is defensive and not aligned to what my original post stated.
What can be seen is that my post was interpreted as a threat and met
with defensiveness.



And one of our interpretations is closer aligned to the truth (good ol'
facts / reality). It's interesting to note that people with better alignment
tend to have a natural advantage in today's science-tempered culture.

d__they are harder. more indoctrinated. are they to be my role models, and the homeless to be my scapegoats?

In the time of crusades (or equivelant), this may have been a disadvantage.
I can just see Einstein being burned alive for heresy.

d__which means that the science REACTION wan;t to REAL spirituality, but to a FALSE spirituality. this is the problem i see with science. for when they 'rightly' through that out, they also through original spirituality out also. though maybe unconscious of doing so.

Poetry is a fun means for creative expression. I've written some for school.
It's a good exercise for the brain and can elicit some very satisfying
feelings.

d__Feeelings are important

Science enables us to experiment with reality, make observations of reality,
predict outcomes of reality, and create things in reality. Cell phones and
GPS units are inventions based on scientific knowledge. The fact that they
work as expected validates the 'correctness' of the models they are based
on. There is no phiolosphy involved here. Reality is what it is.

d__well that is what i am disputing. sure i can see cell phones. i can also seethe immense advertizing of them to children even though there is evidence they may HARM children. THAt is reality.
Look, science don't come on its ownsome. like the theocratic paradigm before where religion merges with State, so it is with science and State. with that inevitably comes a philosophy. a paradigm. in our case materilistic and mechanistic.

Science is
the best tool we have to understand it and do stuff with it.

d__A tool. not 'the best'


It's a fact that all information is processed by a person's emotional
center first. It's a fact that people have emotional needs (they want to feel
happy, they don't want to feel accused, they don't want feel heavy
obligation, they want to feel heard, etc.). It's a fact that people feel (it's
another survival mechanism).

d__but you make it SOUND like a machine. this is what i am pointing out. that is THe philosophy of science!

The reason all this knowledge exists is because of science. It helps
us unco

Science is
the best tool we have to understand it and do stuff with it.d__A tool. not 'the best'It is the only tool.

The only way to find out the nature of Nature is to test it, and see what it tells us. Having found out the nature of Nature in our tired old mechanistic way, we can then actually make use of the knowledge we have so gained. This is in fact what happens all the time, and resulted first of all in an understanding of hygiene that saves lives, millions more lives than the mantra "cleanliness is next to godliness" ever did. Otherwise, any medical advancement is made by that means, any technological advancement which (among other things) allows me to communicate with you even if we were thousands of miles apart (and not the 200 we actually are!) is made by that means - and finally, the true nature of the way Humanity has spent the last 100 or so years damaging the Earth and the environment, was discovered solely through the methods of science.

In your belief system, you take hallucinogenic drugs and have a mystical experience in which the nature of nature is "revealed" to you. Obviously there is no point my saying that this is worthless nonsense! But lets say that one of your hallucinatory revelations told you to mix up the bark of an Amazon tree with the crushed bodies of ants from India to obtain a cure for cancer. That's great, and you wake up with a mission to save the world. Unfortunately, you really can't be sure that the bark-and-ant thing will actually work unless you test it. Even if you don't test it, the very fact that it will either work or not work will be a scientific test. After all, if you try it on 3 people and they not only do not get cured for cancer but actually die through the administration of the potion, you are not (unless you are a lunatic or a conman - and such lunatics and conmen have been with us always) going to carry on administering the potion just because the Goddess told you about it in a dream, are you?

d__but you make it SOUND like a machine. this is what i am pointing out. that is THe philosophy of science!There is not as much philosophy in science as so-called philosophers of science would have you believe. Science is merely the acting out of the human tendency to try stuff out in order to satisfy our curiosity - and furthermore it is the only method that works - ie that gives us useful knowledge that we can apply. You can denigrate Science as mechanistic all you want, but Science is not actually an entity that can succumb to such analysis. Scientists will carry on finding out what actually works, and applying it. What else can they do?

You are referring to theoretical models. We live in an actual universe that is strewn with Heavy Elements where they 'theoretically' do not belong. The easiest explanation is that all of the Conditions for the Big Bang were met before all of the last collapsing universe had quite melted down into the pure atomic stew, and so when the Big Explosion occurred, all that unassimulated matter was tossed out, giving us not a "Model" but our present mixed and dirty universe.

Oh, thanks for the 'quark' thing. I guess my way of remembering it was to think of quirk, and the memory tool turned out to be too insidious.

That's correct. I am referring to theoretical models. The one point I am
not understanding is why heavy elements should not be able to exist. The
'recombination' period would have created the foundations for all elements
(heavy included). Any references for further reading would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.

Duendy,

Based on all those previous responses, the one thing that becomes evident
is that science is being interpreted as an obsticle to emotion. Something
that will prevent a person from achieving emotional satisfaction and
well being. This interpretation appears to be resulting in a substitution of
emotional thinking in place of science as a tool for understanding the
Universe because it 'feels better' and is much more attractive to an emotional
being.

If the goal is to 'feel' good and embrace the attractive, then explaining the
Universe with emotion is a valid way to go. If the goal is to understand
and embrace truth then science is the way to go.

Just for the heck of it, I thought I would list a few accomplishments that
are a result of science:

* Smallpox vaccines
* Prozac
* Computers
* Airplanes
* Satellites
* Credit cards
* Movies
* Cart racing
* Laser tag
* Paint ball
* Smoke detectors
* Sunblock
* Showers
* Microwave ovens
* Digital watches
* Keyboards
* Electric guitars
* Karioke
* Radio
* Telepones

and the list goes on and on. There are items that preserve and protect life,
improve quality of life, provide entertainment, enable communication, save
time. These are the innovations of people, people who were inspired.

We live in an actual universe that is strewn with Heavy Elements where they 'theoretically' do not belong. The easiest explanation is that all of the Conditions for the Big Bang were met before all of the last collapsing universe had quite melted down into the pure atomic stew,
Please provide a solid reference or two for this notion. All my reading tells me there is not a significant issue with the quantities of heavy elements. Your remarks on this are interesting, but quite surprising to me. Thanks.

Hello Leo, was that request too challenging?