I have a question regarding becoming, or perhaps more accurately, being, fully aware, awake, or enlightened-whichever term will suffice. Would not being fully awake create more suffering for an individual as opposed to eliminating that suffering?? Because if you were fully awake and saw everything as it is as opposed as what it appears to be would you not suffer more.

My understanding is that "suffering" is an emotional state where as "enlightenment", "awareness or whatever you want to call it is pure Wisdom. (Information -> Knowledge -> Wisdom). Whether a wise person suffers - I do not know, you have to find one and ask....I am not there yet....:D

In some cases, the best answer to your question is 'yes'.

Knowing everything that went on would crush you.

for example the first time you found out that father christmas didnt exist, or when you found out about a rape case, did it not make you sick?


Ignorance is bliss...

Hmmmm.......... paradox.

Originally posted by Divine_Key
for example the first time you found out that father christmas didnt exist, ..., did it not make you sick?

Then again....you were a wee lad...not the wise old man....

How many jewis old rabbis from translovania get shocked...when they find out there is no Santa Claus in America...:D

Suffering is caused by illusion, you are enlightened when all illusion vanishes from your awearness, hense there can be no suffering, that is to say you do not suffer but, you do see the suffering of others which is where compassion comes into play

So you become enlightened when the illusion disappears from your conscious state-which is that with which you are aware. In other words you see everything as it is-in reality because there is no illusion-and not as what it necessarily appears to be. Can you see things as they are even if the illusion still exists?? What I'm wondering is-from the Buddhist's perspective-as a self-professed unenlightened individual would I be incapable of seeing anything as it was or is because of the illusion??

Hypothetically, when the illusion disappears, the individual becomes enlightened thus eliminating that individuals suffering. And in that very enlightenment that individual sees the suffering of other individuals because of the enlightenment. Logically, I think if I were to see other people suffer-to the extent in which they do, that would then therefore make me suffer due to concern for those suffering. I suppose not all people would think like that nevertheless I do as an individual. How is this logically reconcilable??

to be enlightened i think,implies awareness and acceptance of the
transitory nature of all things.
to be enlightened i think, implies awareness and acceptance of the
permanent nature of all things.

enlightenment means that either negative(suffering) or positive(joy) emotions is just that,an emotion and thus irrelevant.

centaurus, making an assumption that you, after enlightenment would have the same emotions as before is not logical.what would be the point of enlightenment then?




imho of course:D

"to be enlightened i think implies awareness and acceptance of the
transitory nature of things
to be enlightened i think implies awareness and acceptance of the
permanent nature of all things"

You do realize you've made two completely contradictory statements in the same paragraph.:D
'Everything is temporary and everything is permanent.' How can everything be temporary and permanent at the same time??:eek:

"enlightenment means that either negative(suffering) or positive(joy) emotions is just that,an emotion; and thus irrelevant"

So emotions have no pertinent place in the human experience?? If emotions are irrelevant may I ask why His Holiness The Dalai Lama wrote a book entitled The Art of HAPPINESS: A Handbook For Living??

"centaurus, making an assumption that you after enlightenment would have the same emotions as before is not logical.what would be the point of enlightenment then"

So emotions change when you become enlightened?? In what manner do emotions change once one becomes enlightened??

it is not so much that emotions change after enlightenment but it
is the absence of emotions once in that state of being.after all the goal of self awareness is to free oneself of attachments and the consequent emotions that arise.

conventional logic may serve its purpose when dealing with
mundane matters but when delving into metaphysics it can prove to be inadequate. dichotomies, either/or, this/that imply a finality,
whereas accepting the possibility that two opposing viewpoints
or facts can be true leaves one with a sense of infinite possibilties.

to elaborate further see links below :D

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mathematics-inconsistent/

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/2952/proof2.html

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~sjblatt/notes/nottrue.html

http://www.idmon.freeserve.co.uk/cation.htm

emotions do have a place in human experience ! it is a source of
revenue for shrinks and drug dealers

enlightenment is not to be taken lightly. it is the pinnacle of human achievement and upon reaching it one trancends humanity

as for the dali lama dude......

if this has not cleared up any remaining doubts please see
here http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/~petehip/ZPKLogic.html

:D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Centaurus1
I have a question regarding becoming, or perhaps more accurately, being, fully aware, awake, or enlightened-whichever term will suffice. Would not being fully awake create more suffering for an individual as opposed to eliminating that suffering??[/i]

What do you mean by fully aware?

Aware of what?

Because if you were fully awake and saw everything as it is as opposed as what it appears to be would you not suffer more.

Again it depends on your meaning of "aware."

Love

Jan Ardena.

Quote from spookz

it is not so much that emotions change after enlightenment but it
is the absence of emotions once in that state of being.after all the goal of self awareness is to free oneself of attachments and the consequent emotions that arise.
--------------------------------------------------------
this is a statement from a materialist view point!!!

it is the never ending tunnel of darknes

humans in thier nature are emotional (regardless of the use or ability to switch them on or off)!

so emotion is in its very essence a form of perception!

thus removing it from awareness is like telling a blind man he can not touch anything unless he gets the wrong impression!

have i got the wrong impresion???
please expand???

:)

A MATERIALIST THINKS SELF ACTUALISATION IS A "GOAL" IN ITS
VERY NATURE...
JUST LIKE A BIG BANK ACCOUNT OR
BUILDING THAT HAS JUST BEEN FINNISHED.

THAT IS JUST SOO LIMITING ITS SCARRY!

Hello Jan

Have not seen you lately. We miss you....

"humans in their nature are emotional "

what about it?just because humans have characteristics and attributes doesnt mean they have to be defined by them

perceptions can be made without forming opinions(takes some practice but can be done:) )

emotions are a result of ones present state of being. i do not see how it can come first

if my statement is from a materialistic point of view, what would be the non-materialistic interpretation of the issues being discussed? (self awareness/emotions)

also there is absolutely no need to yell :D
i listen i learn:D

ooooopppppssss
caps lock is my friend not my voice :D
i was using for art sake not to mean shouting
i appologise!

well
where i would go from here would be...
can a human be born and live without emotions???
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
that is the question on which i was founding my thought
on the bassis of materialism not in a
pointing finger but more a defining discriptive manner.

'look at the funny man'!
exclaimed the small child
"which one asks the mother"?
if we were all funny at least we would all be laughing
if i couldnt laugh at myself it might mean i would be crying...
and we know which is prefered :D

a doctrine taught to me by a great wise owL
:D :D :D

sure they can
unfortunately they end up being stone cold killers
:D

Originally posted by kmguru
Hello Jan

Have not seen you lately. We miss you....

Hi KM,

I have been around, seeing if any interesting subjects are being discussed.

Thanks for you concern. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

heyya all



Jan Ardena...
QUOTE
__________________
God is seated in everyones heart. From Him comes, knowledge and forgetfulness.
-------------------------------------
i am curiouse on the issue of why you refer to god as male

would it not be more likely that god would be of both sexs
thus hermaphadite???

please expand!
in regard to your awareness of this as the nature of the question.
or is it simplicity to describe? as "him" ?

groove on all :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ripleofdeath
[B]heyya all



Jan Ardena...
QUOTE
__________________
God is seated in everyones heart. From Him comes, knowledge and forgetfulness.
-------------------------------------
i am curiouse on the issue of why you refer to god as male

would it not be more likely that god would be of both sexs
thus hermaphadite???

please expand!
in regard to your awareness of this as the nature of the question.
or is it simplicity to describe? as "him" ?


It quite simple, the male is the seed generator.

Everything is part and parcel of God (including male & female energy), therefore He is both, but the male and female energies have different roles in order to create balance in the material world.
God is described as "Him" because He is the creator, He, according to scripture generated the seeds which brought the cosmic manifestation into being, through contact with the unmanifested material nature (female).

Love

Jan Ardena.

heyya all :)

QUOTE ...from...
Jan Ardena

It quite simple, the male is the seed generator.

Everything is part and parcel of God (including male & female energy), therefore He is both, but the male and female energies have different roles in order to create balance in the material world.
God is described as "Him" because He is the creator, He, according to scripture generated the seeds which brought the cosmic manifestation into being, through contact with the unmanifested material nature (female).
---------------------------------------------------------------
so...
a women becoming "aware"
is a women choosing the path of materialism

and

men are godlike in nature so will always
see women as less than them and be correct in the realisation??

does this 'some-up' "becoming aware" as a 'christian'???

hence the "will of man" becomes the 'will of god'

thus... should only men raise male children, because women are incapable?
thus women raising male children creates all the discord/evil in the world trying to tell a man how to be a man when they no nothing of such god like things.
my mind is reeling please expand/define/opinionate/express
more as you wish.

peace and (then will come) love
ps ... eastern philosophy????????
:)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ripleofdeath
so...
a women becoming "aware"
is a women choosing the path of materialism

It depends on what you mean by "aware," a woman is identified by her body, the soul which occupies that body is neither male or female or material.

and

men are godlike in nature so will always
see women as less than them and be correct in the realisation??

A man is identified by his body, the soul which occupies the body is again neither male or female, it is spiritual. Mens and womens bodies have different roles in life, that is why there is distinction.

does this 'some-up' "becoming aware" as a 'christian'???

Becoming aware as a Christian means understanding the purpose of Jesus' mission on Earth, and making the decision to serve him by way of his teachings.

hence the "will of man" becomes the 'will of god'

From what i can understand the will of man is ultimately the will of God, but man has to realise this.

thus... should only men raise male children, because women are incapable?

No, both parents should raise their children.

thus women raising male children creates all the discord/evil in the world trying to tell a man how to be a man when they no nothing of such god like things.

A man and women are supposed to be together, this is the point of marriage. Together they create a complete balance for the offspring.

my mind is reeling please expand/define/opinionate/express
more as you wish.

Keep coming with more questions. ;)

peace and (then will come) love
ps ... eastern philosophy????????
:)

Love
Jan Ardena.

heyya all

yo jan...
does your awareness of "god as a christian" allow you to
accept other beings, being aware of "other" gods?
or do you prescibe to a doctrine of spiritual manogamy..as such?
which you believe to be your awareness...?

if this fundermental 'underlay' changes in your heart does it
allow for interpretation?

or
do you prescide to mental illnes as a diversion of reality to be the nature of other religion/awareness?

i find this insinuated concept (by me as a question) to be most
sizing and compartmentalising of something in its interface to be
not soo tangable...

"as to conclude to ones mental awarenes in light of god as to be, rather that one would be the light of god" (riple-ism :D )
thus to project god
rather than to mingle amoungst.
im floating close to the word "materialism" :D

:)
thoughts?

heyya all

yo jan
one more thing hit me this mornin :)

QUOTE...
A man is identified by his body, the soul which occupies the body is again neither male or female, it is spiritual. Mens and womens bodies have different roles in life, that is why there is distinction
=======================
SOO...
it would seem that regardless of what the current bishops and ministers say...
the exact meaning of such information/teaching is to state that
homosexual "life style" is the(one of) true embodyment of evil.
no husband/wife=no kids=no family=no schools=no community=
NO SOCIETY...
thus it would seem only basic following thought would be that
ALL homosexuals are a VESSEL of TRUE evil.
and have sought to seek companions in missery and shame by
instigating pedophilia as a Male Hetrosexual persuit.
and in turn (alongwith) insinuating that they are somehow a product of that...
removing the self confidence(what is left) so they can feel like the VICTIM that is SOO fashionable in this legal arrangement called "western culture"...

thoughts?

:)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ripleofdeath
yo jan...
does your awareness of "god as a christian" allow you to
accept other beings, being aware of "other" gods?

Hi R.O.D,

I am not a christian. :)

Yes it does.

….or do you prescibe to a doctrine of spiritual manogamy..as such?
which you believe to be your awareness...?

My awareness is whatever I am aware of at any particular moment.
To be aware of God in this day and age, one has to fix his mind on Him.

if this fundermental 'underlay' changes in your heart does it
allow for interpretation?

I would say yes………I think. :confused:

or
do you prescide to mental illnes as a diversion of reality to be the nature of other religion/awareness?

Mental illness?…………….I never have, so based on that I would say no.

i find this insinuated concept (by me as a question) to be most
sizing and compartmentalising of something in its interface to be
not soo tangable..."as to conclude to ones mental awarenes in light of god as to be, rather that one would be the light of god" (riple-ism :D )
thus to project god
rather than to mingle amoungst.
im floating close to the word "materialism" :D

:)
thoughts?

Not sure what you mean there, please rephrase it.

yo jan
one more thing hit me this mornin :)

QUOTE...
A man is identified by his body, the soul which occupies the body is again neither male or female, it is spiritual. Mens and womens bodies have different roles in life, that is why there is distinction

ALL homosexuals are a VESSEL of TRUE evil.
and have sought to seek companions in missery and shame by
instigating pedophilia as a Male Hetrosexual persuit.

Homosexuals may or may not be evil, the intention of the act of homosexuality may not be evil, it may be out of love and affection. But the act of homosexuality is as evil/transgressitory as the act of (hetrasexual) adultery or peodophillia.

Love

Jan Ardena.

heyya all :)

yo jan...
sorry for jumping to the conclusion of christianity it was the first religion i noticed so "assumed it" as the "potential" fundermental.

i understand what you mean by the act of sex!
i think this is a very good point if it could be understood by
mainstream science :)
we can yet but hope :)

---
do you prescide to mental illnes as a diversion of reality to be the nature of other religion/awareness?

Mental illness?…………….I never have, so based on that I would say no.
---

note the words "diversion of reality"
this is the key to the nature of the question :)

*"NOT"! do you have a mental illness.

Quote-
Not sure what you mean there, please rephrase it.
--
sorry ... this will require a great deal of mental effort and im not able to just jump in and re-arrange at anytime..."yet"
:D
but if i think of it again at some stage i will try and translate it...as such :)

:)
just a thought.."all"
reality is what we do
hence
awarness is what we know
thence
what we know is what we do is what is!
:D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ripleofdeath
heyya all :)

yo jan...
sorry for jumping to the conclusion of christianity it was the first religion i noticed so "assumed it" as the "potential" fundermental.

Thats cool. :)

i understand what you mean by the act of sex!
i think this is a very good point if it could be understood by
mainstream science :)
we can yet but hope :)

I don't think mainstream science has a problem understanding that.................... it just doesn't fit. ;)

Love

Jan Ardena.

heya all :)

jan...
so do you think a person holds the key?

or do you think maybe it is gods personal knoledge not for the
un-initiated?

hhhmmmm
just a thought
transitory...
a determination to not be consistant in "good" values and morals...
???
:D
thoughts?
mainstream materialistic thought is the only realistic manifestation on the basic premis of cause and effect law of communal existance...
imo :D

thoughts.. anybods???
ps thus becoming aware is to understand the "nature" of the interaction of all beings!
regardless of whether you understand the language :)
hence the reddy attachment to darwin theory... since he is dead and cant change or addapt or concisely explain it :D

:)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ripleofdeath
[B]heya all :)

jan...
so do you think a person holds the key?

The key to knowledge, enlightenment and a relationship with God? Yes.

or do you think maybe it is gods personal knoledge not for the
un-initiated?

Do you know any loving father who would deprive their children of anything he had?

thus becoming aware is to understand the "nature" of the interaction of all beings!

Suppose you come to the platform of understanding such nature......................................Then what?

Our limit in bodily terms is, on average 90 years, being aware in the way you mentioned will not help you overcome death or disease. So what is the value of such awareness?

Love

Jan Ardena.

"Do you know any loving father who would deprive their children of anything he had?"

No, I don't. But god deprives of peace, justice and good health (I'm assuming god doesn't get sick too often).

Originally posted by Tyler
"Do you know any loving father who would deprive their children of anything he had?"

No, I don't. But god deprives of peace, justice and good health (I'm assuming god doesn't get sick too often).

How so?

Love

Jan Ardena.

He, if all powerful, has teh ability to hand out these things and opts not to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tyler
[B]He, if all powerful, has teh ability to hand out these things and opts not to.

What makes you say that?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Every single religion that has ever existed has had a god that is all-powerful.

Originally posted by Tyler
Every single religion that has ever existed has had a god that is all-powerful.

You say "a god" and i say "God."

You said, "He, if all powerful, has the ability to hand out these things and opts not to."

I'm asking you, why has he opted not?

Love

Jan Ardena.

so 'God' is the christian version of supreme diety and 'god' is what you choose to call that which is the sam under any other religion/belief system?

Oh gGod, help me.

Can't we use another word?

"I'm asking you, why has he opted not?"

1) I don't believe in god
2) You're about the closest I've seen as someone who should be in a nut house on this site and whatever your views are on god (God, Yehuah, Allah.... pick one. If you're that concerned) are entirely yours and no one elses so.
3) If there was a god - I'm not him, so I don't know. I'm not arrogant enough to think I know every whim/intention/value of a supreme being

So, tell me the answer oh wise one, why has an all-powerful being opted not to bestow these gifts upon man?

You're about the closest I've seen as someone who should be in a nut house on this site and whatever your views are on god (God, Yehuah, Allah.... pick one. If you're that concerned) are entirely yours and no one elses so.

First: this is not an argument, it is only insulting.

Second: His views are quite interesting. Some of them are shared by a billion Hindus, some probably not.

He is only asking you questions to lead you to an answer.

Read more of his posts before judging.

heyya all :)

Quote...
jan...
Our limit in bodily terms is, on average 90 years, being aware in the way you mentioned will not help you overcome death or disease. So what is the value of such awareness?
=======
so you prescribe to "ignorance is bliss" ???

... the vail of the true christian!
(my opinion)
thus to give away all responsibility to all things that may create harm...
this i believe is the embodyment of EVIL!!!
what -ever the religion...

...jan... do you care to share your soul age???

i am most curiouse!!!
:)
!...not in a condescending way...!
i am a student of life!
i seek to know...
there for i do not commit suicide!!!
there is much to learn...

i get the impresion from the way you "word" things that you suggest that it is not to be bothered with to try to understand these things!...
this confuses me ...
and may well be a miss-interpretation...

please expand as you wish...

groove on all :)

I have a question regarding becoming, or perhaps more accurately, being, fully aware, awake, or enlightened-whichever term will suffice. Would not being fully awake create more suffering for an individual as opposed to eliminating that suffering?? Because if you were fully awake and saw everything as it is as opposed as what it appears to be would you not suffer more.




What is everything as it is? Is what you mean everything as it appears to be now only more so?


Anyway, if you were fully awake or what ever you want to call it, you would be more fully aware of every thing. That means that you would be fully aware of the love, compassion, wisdom and kindness that is your true nature. You would also be fully IDENTIFIED with the entire universe and all in it, you would see yourself in everyone you met . I dont see how one could feel narrow ego driven dissatisfaction with a perspective like that. If you identify with one single solitary ego (your own) most of your suffering is due to the isolation of that narrow perspective. Also being completely in touch, you would realize that the universe is (this is really a place where words werent meant to go so bear with me) becoming every minute, being created and destroyed, sponteanously evolving like a flower blooming. The bliss is being on the spot of, completely identified with, and at the center of that process of creation and becoming.

You should take the above paragraph with a grain of salt, no amount of reading words will get you any closer to the truth than you already are.
This is all from a buddhist perspective, which is what i am best aquainted with, your mileage may vary :)

heyya all :)

yo m0rl0ck...
nice picture :D
small technical hitch...
percieving "X" does not exclude influence of "y"...
...and wandering "y" the F--- does "y" have to risk all
that "y" and "x" would like to continue... to some percievable grasp of motivation.

...eRR for...
"i" do not like to watch others suffer for my ammusement.
all people have this choice!
odd!... i find...
considering the bulk seem to make this choice.

anywho...
crazzy ol world int it :)

groove on all :)

Originally posted by A4Ever


First: this is not an argument, it is only insulting.

Second: His views are quite interesting. Some of them are shared by a billion Hindus, some probably not.

He is only asking you questions to lead you to an answer.

Read more of his posts before judging.

Thanks A4. :)

There's just no talking to some folk. :p

ripple of death....

Quote...
jan...
Our limit in bodily terms is, on average 90 years, being aware in the way you mentioned will not help you overcome death or disease. So what is the value of such awareness?.............

so you prescribe to "ignorance is bliss" ???

It is not a matter of ignorance by preference, but through our limited nature.

... the vail of the true christian!
(my opinion)

Have you studied the teachings of Jesus, he was a true Christ-ian?

thus to give away all responsibility to all things that may create harm...

Such as what?

this i believe is the embodyment of EVIL!!!

I think the embodiment of evil is wanting to lord it over nature.

what -ever the religion...

Religions nowadays are just names, it may sound strange but I don’t believe God is found in such religions, but is in the heart of everyone and if you are sincere, He will guide you as long as turn to Him. In this way we are guided to other sincere and more advanced devotees of His, and as our hearts and minds become cleansed, we begin to understand our real position, this is “religion.”

...jan... do you care to share your soul age???

Not really r.o.d, there is no point. :(

i am a student of life!

We all are……we don’t have a choice. :D

i seek to know...

Have you read Bhagavad Gita. ;)

there for i do not commit suicide!!!

I hope you don’t, that's murder.

there is much to learn...

Would you say mathematics is a big subject?
How long do you think it would be before you could learn half of everything there is to know about mathematics?
Do you have any idea of what half of all mathematics is?
Yet “1” is the basis of maths, without “1” there would be nothing..

God is something like the “1” :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

heyya all :)
yo jan...
limited nature as to be that which is limited by design or by choice?

Jesus was not and is not the son of god!
as an embodiment of a being of such nature defies the
ritechouse truth to the being in its own value!
what an insult!
if not somewhat arrogantly poised...
if "god" was to create a "son" or a "daughter" sad that all Christianity must put women down one peg!
it would most likely be something to equal the nature of the existence of life in its own nature...!
and that is definitely not human!
humans are just the worker drones to keep the grass short and the lawn ready for play...
but have grown too big for thier own pants and is about to burst out and cause a nasty mess that is surely to be cleaned by something!
:)
Quote...
thus to give away all responsibility to all things that may create harm...
Q...
Such as what?
======
the seeking out of the evil!
... of coarse!!!
what else could there be!?!?!?
and such does condemn in its nature(Christianity) to the ever lasting cycle of abuse and torment and eventual self destruction!
THAT IS WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS!
and it has many forms...
and evil walks in many shoes,
and soo many empty shoes to choose from!
(i am pointing my finger at religion!-not the individual)

((its late...im getting grumpy...so i better stop there before i get on to the bigger soap box)) :D

...soul age to me is!
but what you choose is what you allow me to assume...
which is very little if i can help it :)

mathematics is a small subject and i know about half of it, currently...
and don’t feel too interested in the other half :D

science is a big subject, ... with many sub groups and related theory and "theology"(as some might say)
we need to focus on the quality not the size!
as you may agree.

the size of this subject makes me a little hesitant to start with any specific thoughts in the advent of required related theory and theology... as such...
But the mere fact that you observe(through literal reference) the life style of someone who
committed suicide (Jesus) i believe will one day help you to another basis of perspective...
we need not accept evil amongst us!

peace light
truth love
the path to that we hold above

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ripleofdeath
yo jan...
limited nature as to be that which is limited by design or by choice?

???

if "god" was to create a "son" or a "daughter" sad that all Christianity must put women down one peg!
it would most likely be something to equal the nature of the existence of life in its own nature...!

Every living entity is "son of God" by quality (spirit soul), he created the bodies out of His own (material) energy.

and that is definitely not human!

Humans are temporary, the soul is eternal.

humans are just the worker drones to keep the grass short and the lawn ready for play...

Most, but not all

but have grown too big for thier own pants and is about to burst out and cause a nasty mess that is surely to be cleaned by something!
:)

Sounds rude! :)

and such does condemn in its nature(Christianity) to the ever lasting cycle of abuse and torment and eventual self destruction!
THAT IS WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS!

Real Christianity is "following in the footsteps of Christ" anything other than that is not christianity.

(i am pointing my finger at religion!-not the individual)

Religion is any form of education that teaches one to develop their love of God, anything less is "irreligion."

mathematics is a small subject and i know about half of it, currently...
and don’t feel too interested in the other half :D

You know half of it eh...............mmmmmmm!!!!

But the mere fact that you observe(through literal reference) the life style of someone who
committed suicide (Jesus) i believe will one day help you to another basis of perspective...

Funny, i don't remember the suicide part!!

we need not accept evil amongst us!

What is evil?

Love

Jan Ardena.

What is evil?

yeah, someone answer that one! :)

so it is ok to kill and then eat children in a church???

someone answer that one!???

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by ripleofdeath
so it is ok to kill and then eat children in a church???

someone answer that one!???

:rolleyes:


I don't think it's ok to kill and eat children period, but there are those that do.

Is that act evil because it goes against our own personal preference, or is there a bigger more universal standard that it opposes.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Is that act evil because it goes against our own personal preference, or is there a bigger more universal standard that it opposes.

I think that some eastern relgions think the synthesis of two opposites is the highest knowledge.

So... highest knowledge stands above good and evil.

So... the answer would be that it is our own preference.

According to some this life is a playground of experiences with no possible metaphysical evil.

Disclaimer: 1/I don't know. 2/Universal principles of good would be nice. 3/if life is there to experience, I think it is best to experience at the highest possible level, which includes making the difference between good and evil.

Jan, should we still hang out? :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A4Ever
So... highest knowledge stands above good and evil.

Yes.....it trancendental. :)

So... the answer would be that it is our own preference.

Yes, but what is the source of our preference, on what basis do we decide??

I think it is best to experience at the highest possible level, which includes making the difference between good and evil.

If there is a "highest possible level," how do we know what it is without trancendental help?

Jan, should we still hang out? :)

Yep, i sure do, and by the way i've just remembered, i still owe you an explanation from your pm. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

Yes, but what is the source of our preference, on what basis do we decide??

I fear that it is based on mutual agreements: I don't hurt you, you don't hurt me. We can put ourselves in the place of a victim and imagine how we wouldn't like those things to happen to us.

That's also pretty close to Jezus' most important rule I think.

I hope that we can make our preference based on some Godly spark of knowledge of good and evil that is with us always.

What is good and what is evil tends to change over time: the Greeks had sex with children all of the time. Now it is a deadly sin.

If there is a "highest possible level," how do we know what it is without trancendental help?

It is always possible to translate actions into personal advantage, but I don't think that is valid.

I go with the Godly spark :)

But then, if there is something above good and evil, why do we need to chose between them, why is it such a big issue?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A4Ever
Yes, but what is the source of our preference, on what basis do we decide??

I fear that it is based on mutual agreements: I don't hurt you, you don't hurt me.
We can put ourselves in the place of a victim and imagine how we wouldn't like those things to happen to us.

Then your saying the source is intelligence. Yes?

That's also pretty close to Jezus' most important rule I think.

Yes….do unto others as you would have done unto yourself, or something similar.
But why do you think Jesus had to instil something which is so fundamentally obvious?

I hope that we can make our preference based on some Godly spark of knowledge of good and evil that is with us always.

Evil, imo is the opposite of good, so evil is always present and today predominant. The nature of this world is one of duality, hot/cold, light/dark and so on. It all stems from the “divine” and the “demonic.”
And I am not only talking about Buffy demonic, but demonic as in anti-God.

What is good and what is evil tends to change over time: the Greeks had sex with children all of the time. Now it is a deadly sin.

At what point is it alright for a child to have sex, that is the question.
Some would say from the point of puberty, some would say from the age of 16/18. I understand both points.
A young girl reaches puberty (probably) around the age of 13, so her body is ready to concieve children, but mentally she is still immature and most probably unable to cope with such heavy responsibilities.
This is why in some ancient cultures girls get married from as young as 12, but still live in her parents house until they think she is ready to live with husband.
As far as having sex goes, in those cultures the idea was to teach that sexual intercourse is for pro-creation, one could have as much sex as was nesaccery for the purpose of pro-creation. It was only the low class men and women who would have unrestricted sex.
Nowadays everybody’s doing it, when, where and how they choose, we disregard the effect we are generating, if a girl gets pregnant she aborts child believing it to be nothing more than excess body tissue, because it is not conveniant. We are being fooled into thinking that the pheotus is not a person.
All this kind of activity has been already prophesied in scriptures, this is how future condition is known, through current and previous actions it all adds up.

I go with the Godly spark :)

So do I……with knobs on. ;)

But then, if there is something above good and evil, why do we need to chose between them, why is it such a big issue?

Choosing is not good enough, we have to realise. Realisation is real knowledge, it does not disciminate. Information can lead to realisation but you have to devlop good discrimination, this could take lifetimes. :D

An owed explanation.........

This is a quote from one of your posts. I wondered, what if science could replace a mans heart completely with a mechanical one?

The heart you are refering to is the gross physical organ which pumps blood around the body, it is not the heart which loves or shows compassion.
When we love someone with all our heart, it is not the gross physical heart which is being talked about, although we may feel physical symptoms due to some anxieties.
The heart we refer to is in the same region as the heart, the heart in this case meaning region.
The dictionary meaning or one of the meanings of “heart” is;

heart. The nearest the middle or center; the part most hidden and within; the inmost or most essential part of any body or system; the source of life and motion in any organization; the chief or vital portion; the center of activity, or of energetic or efficient action; as, the heart of a country, of a tree, etc.

another is;

The seat of the affections or sensibilities, collectively or separately, as love, hate, joy, grief, courage, and the like; rarely, the seat of the understanding or will; -- usually in a good sense, when no epithet is expressed; the better or lovelier part of our nature; the spring of all our actions and purposes; the seat of moral life and character; the moral affections and character itself; the individual disposition and character; as, a good, tender, loving, bad, hard, or selfish heart.


So when someone undergoes a “heart transplant” they don’t lose their “heart” as described above.
The heart that I am refering to is the “anahat chakra” or the “heart chakra.”

Or even further: what if they can suddenly keep someone's head alife with some sort of machine while the body is completely destroyed?

You’d have to ask someone who understands biology big time.

Where is the soul then? Or is it just a figure of speech to place it in the heart?

The soul is situated in the region of the (physical) heart, in the heart chakra. It is trancendental to material nature and therefore not affected by the changes of the body. Also situated with the soul is an expansion of God known as paramatma or supersoul, this feature of the Lord accompanies the individual soul throughout his whole existence, as he journeys from one material manifestation to the next.
The point of yoga is to see God in the heart, not for tightening up our buns. ;)

I think this question could sound as if I am trying to joke or to ridicule you.

It is an excellent question. Spiritual knowledge is also trancendental, it stays with you throughout all your incarnations. So in your next life you will have some understanding of the soul and its position and anything to do with spirituality, but all material knowledge, wealth, fame, beauty, wealth, memory and family &relationships vanish with the body. :(

If you like I can send stuff to you. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

Then your saying the source is intelligence. Yes?

Hmm... I guess so. I was thinking about counter examples with animals, but you could call the fact that dolphins don't kill each other intelligence as well.

So yes, intelligence.

But why do you think Jesus had to instil something which is so fundamentally obvious?

good question!

Maybe people forget the basics of survival once communities are formed and villages are built. Then they need to be reminded of what is important for development.

But is it important for development? The rule is not applied anymore on a large scale.

And I am not only talking about Buffy demonic, but demonic as in anti-God.

How can anti-God not be a part of God? God is everything and everywhere, or do you see that differently?

Do you believe in an intelligent form of evil? The devil? I always thought there was no metaphysical evil.

Information can lead to realisation but you have to devlop good discrimination, this could take lifetimes.

I think I am far from realisation. All I can do is consider and try to be open minded.

What exactly is realisation? Is it a moment in time? Is it the satori, the enlightment?

Thank you for the explanation. I was getting kind of worried about maybe having insulted you :)

If you like I can send stuff to you.

Please do. Check pm.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A4Ever
Maybe people forget the basics of survival once communities are formed and villages are built. Then they need to be reminded of what is important for development.

I agree, forgetfulness is a part of our conditioning, take a look at my signature down below and tell me what you think.

But is it important for development?

I would have to say it is important for our development, it is how we progress as humans. Do you understand “karma?” For each and every act we commit, there is an equal and opposite reaction waiting for us, down to the point of if I lend you money and you don’t pay me back in this life, we both have to return in whatever form and settle that debt.
No matter what the universe must balance itself out.

The rule is not applied anymore on a large scale.

The rule only appears not to be applied (due to world leaders) and as a result we become tangled in karmic reactions, this is why we have (real) religion, to dis-entangle us from these reactions and come to the real platform of God-consciousness.

How can anti-God not be a part of God? God is everything and everywhere, or do you see that differently?

God is supremely kind, He gives all living entities their exact desire. The reason why we are here (souls) in the first place, is to lord it over material nature, we desire to enjoy godly delights just like God, so he creates the worlds so that we can live out our fantasies. While in this world, we forget our real identities, and due to such ignorance we act only to selfishly gratify our senses (like the animals) and thus become entangled in the cycle of birth and death due to inauspicious activities. So everything is God, both for and against.
It is like a small child, he may like his father sometimes and dislike him other times, but he always remains dependant on him and the father always loves him no matter what condition the child is in. If when the child grows up, he gets himself in all kinds of difficulty and ends up in a hellish position (prison, drugs, etc.) the father will still love him and will always try and help him. So whether we are for or against God, He still loves us. Us being anti-God is only our selfish selves acting out of ignorance.

Do you believe in an intelligent form of evil? The devil? I always thought there was no metaphysical evil.

What makes someone intelligent?
Is it lots of academic education?
Or is it having the ability to make proper decisions?
If you check it out all living beings have intelligence, but it is according to their mentality.
The devil (Lucifer) also has intelligence, but only due to his mentality, which is one of pride and vengance. He was once in heaven with God, but decided to rebel against God because he did not obey God and bow down to Adam, Gods intended viceroy on earth, therefore he was banished.
There are lots of situations, especially in vedas where devotess of God, due to some delusions of granduer fall and create havoc throughout the 3 worlds (upper, lower and middle universe) before realising their real position.
So in answer to your question, evil is intelligent but in a material sense.

According to veda, everything in this world is divided into 3 modes or guna, goodness, passion and ignorance, ignorance is associated with evil and darkness. Metaphysics, although more subtle than physics is still material and therefore subject to the modes of material nature.

I am going to send you something which I hope will give you proper enlightenment. :)

I think I am far from realisation. All I can do is consider and try to be open minded.

Realisation is natural, it is the only way you get real knowledge.
Can you remember a time when you could not ride a bicycle?
No matter how much someone tried to explain the concept to you, you just couldn’t ride. But then one day it all clicked, and off you went, and no matter what you will always be able to ride. That is realisation, real knowledge, not the volumes of books written on the subject.

What exactly is realisation? Is it a moment in time? Is it the satori, the enlightment?

Well answer this question.
What do you know for sure?

Love

Jan Ardena.

take a look at my signature down below and tell me what you think.

Everything comes from God, even contradictions, cause he transcends them.

But then why do we say God is good? If everything comes from God, so does all evil. Is God as evil as he is good?

For each and every act we commit, there is an equal and opposite reaction waiting for us

So Joeman has to make up one way or another for calling Brolly a retarded morron?

Say that he has to one way or another. That would be strange, cause a lot of values are linked to the period of time.

If I lend you money and you give it back without intrest in 1500, that's a good thing, cause the general opinion says you can't make a profit of your fellow man.

If you give me back the money in 2002 without intrest, this would be plain wrong.

How do we know which one is right, which one will add cosmic debt to our karma?

and thus become entangled in the cycle of birth and death due to inauspicious activities.

But that would mean that God gave us the playground of matter to act like God, but when we dive into matter, we run a high risk of not getting out of it anymore due to karma debt.

Isn't that a bit cruel?

The devil (Lucifer) also has intelligence, but only due to his mentality, which is one of pride and vengance.

So there is an intelligent form of energy which can be called the devil?

But how can this devil not be God, as all is one?

How do we know God is not evil?

evil is intelligent but in a material sense.

Do you mean that evil is only present in matter, thus excluding metaphysical evil?

What do you know for sure?

Since you can't even trust your senses: nothing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A4Ever
But then why do we say God is good? If everything comes from God, so does all evil. Is God as evil as he is good?

Evil is a perversion of good, as I said before this kind of duality is the nature of the material world.

Bhagavad Gita;

Chapter 3, Verse 37.
The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this
world.

Chapter 3, Verse 39.
Thus, a man's pure consciousness is covered by his eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisfied and which burns like fire.

Chapter 3, Verse 38.
As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, similarly, the living entity is covered by different degrees of this lust.

Chapter 16, Verse 1-3.
The Blessed Lord said: Fearlessness, purification of one's existence, cultivation of spiritual knowledge, charity, self-control, performance of sacrifice, study of the Vedas, austerity and simplicity; nonviolence, truthfulness, freedom from anger; renunciation, tranquility, aversion to faultfinding, compassion and freedom from covetousness; gentleness, modesty and steady determination; vigor, forgiveness, fortitude, cleanliness, freedom from envy and the passion for honor--these transcendental qualities, O son of Bharata, belong to godly men endowed with divine nature.

Chapter 16, Verse 4.
Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance--these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Prtha.

Chapter 16, Verse 5.
The transcendental qualities are conducive to liberation, whereas the demoniac qualities make for bondage. Do not worry, O son of Pandu, for you are born with the divine qualities.

Chapter 16, Verse 6.
O son of Prtha, in this world there are two kinds of created beings. One is called the divine and the other demoniac. I have already explained to you at length the divine qualities. Now hear from Me of the demoniac.

Chapter 16, Verse 7.
Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them.

Chapter 16, Verse 8.
They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire, and has no cause other than lust.

Chapter 16, Verse 9.
Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world.

Chapter 16, Verse 10.
The demoniac, taking shelter of insatiable lust, pride and false prestige, and being thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work, attracted by the impermanent.

Chapter 16, Verse 11-12.
They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification.

Chapter 16, Verse 16.
Thus perplexed by various anxieties and bound by a network of illusions, one becomes too strongly attached to sense enjoyment and falls down into hell.

Chapter 16, Verse 17.
Self-complacent and always impudent, deluded by wealth and false prestige, they sometimes perform sacrifices in name only without following any rules or regulations.

Chapter 16, Verse 18.
Bewildered by false ego, strength, pride, lust and anger, the demon becomes envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is situated in his own body and in the bodies of others, and blasphemes against the real religion.

Chapter 16, Verse 19.
Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life.

Chapter 16, Verse 20.
Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence.

Chapter 16, Verse 21.
There are three gates leading to this hell--lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul.

Chapter 16, Verse 22.
The man who has escaped these three gates of hell, O son of Kunti, performs acts conducive to self-realization and thus gradually attains the supreme destination.

I hope you don’t mind me quoting from BG, I just thought it might give you a better idea of where I’m coming from.

Check your pm.

So Joeman has to make up one way or another for calling Brolly a retarded morron?

It all depends on if it is an action or not.

If I lend you money and you give it back without intrest in 1500, that's a good thing, cause the general opinion says you can't make a profit of your fellow man.

If you give me back the money in 2002 without intrest, this would be plain wrong.

Yes, because the value is no longer the same. If I lent you the equivalent of $10 in 1500, you would probably be a stinkingly rich man in 2002, but in 1600 you would hardly be better off. If I gave you $10, unselfishly, hoping with all my heart that it benefits you and your family, then we may both come back but under different circumstances as the original action had a different intention. Remember, it is the intention behind the act which is valuable or invaluable.

But that would mean that God gave us the playground of matter to act like God, but when we dive into matter, we run a high risk of not getting out of it anymore due to karma debt.

Isn't that a bit cruel?

No it’s not, first of all it is our desire to enjoy like God, we were not forced. Secondly, we do run a high risk of bondage, but God is always there, either in the scriptures, in our heart or in the form of (gurudev) spiritual master (Jesus etc...), so we still have a great opportunity to return to our original nature.

So there is an intelligent form of energy which can be called the devil?

No the devil is called “the devil” who has intelligence.

But how can this devil not be God, as all is one?

The devil (Satan/Lucifer) is a person, his intelligence in terms of matter is far greater than ours, he is far more powerful than us humans. He understands material nature very well and is well aware of The Supreme Lord and the universal etiquette. So to us, he seems as powerful as The Supreme Lord, but to TSL, he is just a little rebellious child.

How do we know God is not evil?

Unsatisfied lust leads to anger and frustration, in such a state one becomes greedy and envious.
God is 1 without a second, that means there is nobody greater than Him or equal to Him. Every thing and every living being is subordinate to the Supreme, He is totally full within Himself. If He likes he can instantly create unlimited amount of the most beautiful women, He can create planets of breathtaking splendour, in His kingdom He enjoys associating with His devotees in spiritual pleasure know as "rasa." He not only recieves loving service from His devotees, but serves them lovingly also.
My explanation of God does Him no justice at all, but you get my point?

Why would He be evil?

Do you mean that evil is only present in matter, thus excluding metaphysical evil?

Metaphysics is matter, albeit subtle.
Yes evil is only present in matter.

Since you can't even trust your senses: nothing.

Why can’t you trust your senses?

Love

Jan
Ardena.

as I said before this kind of duality is the nature of the material world.

Yes, I forgot about that. God stands above all, he transcends good and evil, so the concepts have no longer meaning.

But that would keep us from calling him good also, since he transcends...

Bit confused there...

Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance--these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Prtha.

Lots of people who are harsh have the intention to give someone a wake up call, to help them. You said intention is important. If the intention is good, is there still a demonic nature in harsh people?

Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life.

This sounds like material existance is a punishment, while you said that it is something we chose to be in.

I hope you don’t mind me quoting from BG, I just thought it might give you a better idea of where I’m coming from.

Of course I don't mind. Where are you coming from? Are you a Hindu? (if too personal, please ignore.)

It all depends on if it is an action or not.

Calling someone names is an action.

so we still have a great opportunity to return to our original nature.

But then: is this all a test? Cause he creates things in which to get stuck. Did we specificly ask for that?

It feels a little bit like a trap.

No the devil is called “the devil” who has intelligence.

I don't understand that line.

The devil (Satan/Lucifer) is a person, his intelligence in terms of matter is far greater than ours, he is far more powerful than us humans.

His intelligence in terms of matter... what does that mean? Being able to deal with matter? Knowing it's dangers?

Is the devil trying to trick us?

In what way is he a person? He doesn't have a physical body, has he?

Why doesn't God stop him? End his existance?

You see, I am very interested in the concept of evil/ the devil.

My explanation of God does Him no justice at all, but you get my point?

I think so, but see my first remark.

Also, you have to totaly trust the book on that one, no?

Metaphysics is matter, albeit subtle.

I use metaphysics for everything that is beyond matter. What do you mean with that subtle?

Why can’t you trust your senses?

We can not see infrared nor ultraviolet. We can only hear within strict limitations.

We can not verify that what we perceive is actual reality.

Man, I love these sort of things! :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A4Ever
But that would keep us from calling him good also, since he transcends...

Bit confused there...

Your confusion is justified as I did not fully explain. Although one is in the mode of goodness there is still a chance that one may become influenced by the modes of passion and ignorance. As God is not influenced by the modes of nature, He cannot become affected by it, so there can be no question of Him becoming illusioned. We, on the other hand are under the control of nature and though we may predominantly be in the mode of goodness, there is still a chance we could become illusioned thereforeaffected by the other modes.

Chapter 14, Verse 6.

O sinless one, the mode of goodness being purer than the others, is illuminating, and it frees one from all sinful reactions. Those situated in that mode develop knowledge, but they become conditioned by the concept of happiness.

Quote from author of BG.

”The mode of goodness is first considered. The effect of developing the mode of goodness in the material world is that one becomes wiser than those otherwise conditioned. A man in the mode of goodness is not so much affected by material miseries, and he has a sense of advancement in material knowledge. The representative type is the brahmana, who is supposed to be situated in the mode of goodness. This sense of happiness is due to understanding that, in the mode of goodness, one is more or less free from sinful reactions. Actually, in the Vedic literature it is said that the mode of goodness means greater knowledge and a greater sense of happiness.
The difficulty here is that when a living entity is situated in the mode of goodness, he becomes conditioned to feel that he is advanced in knowledge and is better than others. In this way he becomes conditioned. The best examples are the scientist and philosopher: each is very proud of his knowledge, and because they generally improve their living conditions, they feel a sort of material happiness. This sense of advanced happiness in conditioned life makes them bound by the mode of goodness of MATERIAL NATURE. As such, they are attracted toward working in the mode of goodness, and, as long as they have an attraction for working in that way, they have to take some type of body in the modes of nature. Thus there is no likelihood of liberation, or of being transferred to the spiritual world. Repeatedly one may become a philosopher, a scientist or a poet, and, repeatedly, become entangled in the same disadvantages of birth and death. But, due to the illusion of the material energy, one thinks that that sort of life is pleasant.”

Lots of people who are harsh have the intention to give someone a wake up call, to help them. You said intention is important. If the intention is good, is there still a demonic nature in harsh people?

There can be, but if that is the case it is not because they are harsh, being harsh is not a bad thing if the intention is good. Sometimes parents can be harsh.

This sounds like material existance is a punishment, while you said that it is something we chose to be in.

Material existence can be a punishment or a blessing depending on the individual. Like any society there are rules and regulations, if you act in accordance with them you will be alright, but if you transgress them, then you will have to pay the consequences. That is natures law. God knows exactly how nature works, as He is the controller of nature, so he is always there to help the living entity transcend, but the living entity has to understand that he is under the stringent control of nature and make the decision to turn to God. God will not intervene in the humans business, without the consent of the person, but if the person, sincerely asks God to help him, then He will.
In the same way, when life is sweet, good and plentiful we TEND not to care for Gods intervention and He doesn’t. The same rule applies.

Of course I don't mind. Where are you coming from? Are you a Hindu? (if too personal, please ignore.)

No.

Calling someone names is an action.

Yes, you are correct.

But then: is this all a test? Cause he creates things in which to get stuck. Did we specificly ask for that?

We get ourselves stuck, we cannot see what we are creating for ourselves through our actions, we are completely ignorant. For example when we go to macdonalds we don’t see that we are part of a murder conspiracy by eating cows. We think the cows have no soul or they are put here for us to treat how we like and not care for their wellbeing. We do not understand that they and every other living entity are also sons of God but have acquired a particular type of dress (body) due to their mentality. In this way we incur karmic reactions. That is only one example of how we become entangled, almost every moment we could be transgressing the laws of nature unbeknown to us.

It feels a little bit like a trap.

It is a trap, but God is not trapping us, He is trying to free us.

I don't understand that line.

You asked;

So there is an intelligent form of energy which can be called the devil?

I replied;

No the devil is called “the devil” who has intelligence.

Intelligence is something we acquire according to our mentality, it is not called anything.

His intelligence in terms of matter... what does that mean? Being able to deal with matter? Knowing it's dangers?

Mundane knowledge, science on all levels, psycology etc but on a universal level. He has the ability to manipulate nature.

Is the devil trying to trick us?

No, he’s not trying, he’s tricking.

In what way is he a person? He doesn't have a physical body, has he?

In the way that he has a personality. He obviously is not human but is a person. He has a physical body, but it is not gross like ours. In the Qur’an there are reference to his body being made of fire (jinn). I believe in the Bible he is regarded as an angel (I’m not sure what they are made of), but he is not human although he can appear to us as a human.

Why doesn't God stop him? End his existance?

Because that would violate his freewill. The devil is only powerful because of our ignorance, take away the ignorance and he is powerless because he cannot defeat God.

I think so, but see my first remark.

Also, you have to totaly trust the book on that one, no?

I don’t have to do anything unless I wish to, but the book makes complete sense, I would be a fool not to at least take notice of it.

I use metaphysics for everything that is beyond matter. What do you mean with that subtle?

Mind, intelligence, false ego, air and ether all exist but cannot be detected directly.

We can not see infrared nor ultraviolet. We can only hear within strict limitations.

So?

What about the things you can see and hear?

We can not verify that what we perceive is actual reality.

How do you know? :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

As God is not influenced by the modes of nature, He cannot become affected by it, so there can be no question of Him becoming illusioned.

OK, I understand that. So God is good. But you can only derive that from the text saying that good is the purest.

It is also something I feel. But I don't know if that feeling is to be trusted.

Vulcanoes erupt. Thousands die. Why? Diseases kill off people. They were also created by God. Why?

Those situated in that mode develop knowledge, but they become conditioned by the concept of happiness.

I understand that. Perhaps it is the biggest trap, as it is maybe the last obstacle towards being freed from birth/death.

being harsh is not a bad thing if the intention is good.

You say exactly what Joeman says. We all agree with Joeman. That is sort of funny. :)

but if the person, sincerely asks God to help him, then He will.

But the intervention is always subtle, right? Or can you give some examples?

Do you know the game Black and White? You play a God and when you want people to believe in you, you make rocks fly over their village.

One rock, and all people will believe and adjust their behaviour. (maybe two rocks, to make sure :) )

Or is God being subtle so that our actions come from our own thinking, and not out of fear of God?

Calling someone names is an action.

Quoting this to ask additional question: thoughts can not put us into karmic debt?

We think the cows have no soul or they are put here for us to treat how we like and not care for their wellbeing.

I would have to be very sure about the karmic thing to stop eating animals. Although I have some non religious reasons for not doing it: I don't see why they should be killed. They have the right to live.

If you eat cows, but do good deeds, do the different actions neutralize each other?

Is there free will or is everything planned? Because if someone has to come back as a bug to settle a karmic debt in which he has to die cause he killed someone in a previous life, is it sure that the bug will be killed?

Or does the bug have to try again again and again till someone kills him?

In the same way, when life is sweet, good and plentiful we TEND not to care for Gods intervention and He doesn’t.

So you never have to worry about intervention? There is no such thing if you don't ask? The chance of you slipping of a cliff is not a choice of God?

Intelligence is something we acquire according to our mentality

You mean that if we want to learn something, we will? Something like that?

Mundane knowledge, science on all levels, psycology etc but on a universal level. He has the ability to manipulate nature.

Maybe that answers my cliff question.

So we have to fear vampires, werewolves, demons,... because the devil can manipulate nature?

We have to look around the corner to see if he's not there?

Or is he being subtle too, because a strong awareness of his presence would turn people to God and he doesn't want that?

What is his occupation all day?

Does God protect individuals from him?

but he is not human although he can appear to us as a human.

He can?... Posessing someone, or forming a complete material human being?....?

I would be a fool not to at least take notice of it.

Lots of things make sense. The whole new age religion makes sense also.

Isn't there a leap of faith involved?

Mind, intelligence, false ego, air and ether all exist but cannot be detected directly.

But they are matter? If so, you use a different definition than I do. I must keep that in mind.

The devil is only powerful because of our ignorance, take away the ignorance and he is powerless because he cannot defeat God.

He could still manipulate nature and make our lives miserable, no?

What about the things you can see and hear?

We have no way of knowing that what we see can be trusted, since we can not take a point of view from outside our reality.

How do you know?

If you can varify that, please tell me how.


Another question: these teachings really limit the amount of things you can do on this earth, don't they.

For centuries and still now here in Belgium farmers are keeping cattle and small animals like rabbits. There are some extraordinary kind souls between these people, yet they are doomed to be reborn because they kill these animals to make a living?

Poetry, science, ... are all useless, because they lead you away from the path to God?

Now THAT is sad...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A4Ever
OK, I understand that. So God is good. But you can only derive that from the text saying that good is the purest.

Or from someone, or from your experience.

It is also something I feel. But I don't know if that feeling is to be trusted.

What is there to know?

Vulcanoes erupt. Thousands die. Why? Diseases kill off people. They were also created by God. Why?

When we die, it is the body that dies, the soul (person) does not die.
The body is created by nature under the direction of God. Nature has a law that says to every action there exists an opposite and equal reaction. As the body is a product of nature, it then falls under the control of nature and her laws.

The soul, is not created, it is part and parcel of Gods very own self. In the bible it says; God breathed life into the lump of earth and it became a living soul.

You say exactly what Joeman says. We all agree with Joeman. That is sort of funny. :)

Who’s Joeman?

But the intervention is always subtle, right? Or can you give some examples?

Why should it be always? It is whatever it is.
If you woke up tommorow morning a 25 year old Palestinian goat herder, you had a family, friends, a history, and you knew nothing of this A4ever feller. How would you know you ever existed as you are now? How do you know that divine intervention is not that slick?

Quoting this to ask additional question: thoughts can not put us into karmic debt?

Probably not the pure thought, but if you think about something with enough conviction, it can influence your perception and act under the influence of the original thought.

I would have to be very sure about the karmic thing to stop eating animals.

How would you go about being very sure?

Although I have some non religious reasons for not doing it: I don't see why they should be killed. They have the right to live.

That’s a good start. All you have to do now is try and understand why they have a right to live. :)

If you eat cows, but do good deeds, do the different actions neutralize each other?

The mentality that allows you to eat cows will be of the same quality in all you do.

Is there free will or is everything planned?

There is free will, but we are limited. There are only a few things we do and feel, but the combinations of attaining these things are many.

Because if someone has to come back as a bug to settle a karmic debt in which he has to die cause he killed someone in a previous life, is it sure that the bug will be killed?

If someone became a bug, it wouldn’t be because he killed someone, the punishment hardly fits the crime. What we are talking about here is evolution. The soul transmigrates through different species of life according to the laws of nature, when he attains the human body he is endowed with free will according to his mentality. There is an order, pretty much like Darwin says (if I’m not mistaken), I can find out if necessary.
If someone kills and does not receive the right punishment in his current life, then he has to receive the same fate in his next life, no stone is left unturned. If he recieves the punishment in his current life, then the debt is cleared. The same applies for reward.

Or does the bug have to try again again and again till someone kills him?

Until one reaches the status of human, the evolutionary path is mapped out systematically.

So you never have to worry about intervention?
There is no such thing if you don't ask?

Yes, but only because through ignorance.

The chance of you slipping of a cliff is not a choice of God?

No, unless it is.

You mean that if we want to learn something, we will? Something like that?

Something like that. ;)

So we have to fear vampires, werewolves, demons,... because the devil can manipulate nature?

Don’t get your point.

Or is he being subtle too, because a strong awareness of his presence would turn people to God and he doesn't want that?

Whether or not you believe in scripture, but based on the scripture, are you not aware of the presence of evil?

What is his occupation all day?

Eating, sleeping, mating and defending. :)

Does God protect individuals from him?

Yes, read in the new testament where Jesus goes up to the mount to meditate for 40 days and nights, a perfect example.

He can?... Posessing someone, or forming a complete material human being?....?

No, by knowing how your mind works and preying on your fear and desire. Using your own momentum to push you into further delusion.
We see illusions everyday and we process them as real and even aspire to them. :)

Isn't there a leap of faith involved?

Not only faith, but all aspects of our huminity. We are equipped to understand things that are outside our experience, but we have to free ours minds.

He could still manipulate nature and make our lives miserable, no?

No, because you would have no desire for material gain. A magician only fools people who want to be fooled, if you become wise then you will not be fooled.

We have no way of knowing that what we see can be trusted, since we can not take a point of view from outside our reality.

But you can hear way over outside of what you can see, hearing is our most useful tool, when cultivating knowledge. When we wish to wake somebody out of a deep sleep, you can reach them by calling so that they hear. :)

If you can varify that, please tell me how.

My question was “how do you know,” you made a matter of fact statement which is crucial to your development.

Another question: these teachings really limit the amount of things you can do on this earth, don't they.

In what way?

There are some extraordinary kind souls between these people, yet they are doomed to be reborn because they kill these animals to make a living?

It is still killing though isn’t it.
If it is alright to kill animals for sense gratification, because they are of low value in your eyes, then whats to stop you killing a human, because they are of a low value in your eyes?

Why can’t the farmers wait until the animal dies naturally before sending it to the abatoire?

Poetry, science, ... are all useless, because they lead you away from the path to God?

Now THAT is sad...

Again it depends on the intention, they can also lead you to God.

Love

Jan Ardena.

PS. Thanks for the stuff. ;)

Or from someone, or from your experience.

Someone who is enlightened?

What is there to know?

I don't know. I think there is a form of believe in everything.

Science: we must trust the material world.
Religion: we must trust a book or our experiences or someone else.

Nature has a law that says to every action there exists an opposite and equal reaction.

Do all good actions cause evil counter reactions?

it then falls under the control of nature and her laws.

Yes, that is some comfort. Vulcanoes erupt due to activity within the earth.

But why do we have this type of nature which can easily kill people? Why wasn't a 'better' world created?

Who’s Joeman?

He's a fellow Sciforum member with whom I talked about harshness.

How would you know you ever existed as you are now? How do you know that divine intervention is not that slick?

I KNOW I KNOW!! *very excited now* That's something I already thought of.

We would not know, would we? Maybe it is like that.

It would still be tricking us though... not?

How would you go about being very sure?

You're right, I know that. Another leap is necessary. I don't kill flies, spiders,... but in this case being half good is the same as being not good.

Talking about little animals: what should you do when your dog has flees? You can't kill them...

All you have to do now is try and understand why they have a right to live.

The fact that they are alive is reason enough. Someone higher than me gave the life, I am not to take it.

But doesn't the bible say that we can eat animals? Somewhere in Genesis?

At least animals are sacrificed in there.

The mentality that allows you to eat cows will be of the same quality in all you do.

Could you give a definition of mentality? It is a returning word and it seems important.

There are only a few things we do and feel, but the combinations of attaining these things are many.

What are these few things?

If someone kills and does not receive the right punishment in his current life

What would be the right punishment?

The same applies for reward.

If we don't receive all reward in this life, the karmic equilibrum is not set, so we have to come back to receive rewards??

Or is the reward not being born again? (makes more sense)

Yes, but only because through ignorance.

If you're not ignorant, there is always intervention?

Don’t get your point.

If the devil can manipulate matter, than he could create such beasts of fairy tales, no?

The chance of you slipping of a cliff is not a choice of God?

No, unless it is.

You mean unless it has some specific purpose?

Eating, sleeping, mating and defending.

Are you referring to the fact that this is what most people do? So that in a way it is what the devil wants us to do, focusing on material life?

If so, then what is safe? What is there to do? How to fill a day?

Yes, read in the new testament where Jesus goes up to the mount to meditate for 40 days and nights, a perfect example.

Jezus wasn't defended by God if I remember correctly. He did it all by himself. (just trying to get more information. :) )

We see illusions everyday and we process them as real and even aspire to them.

What is real? What are the illusions?

But you can hear way over outside of what you can see

But that still doesn't mean that what you hear is right.

Why can’t the farmers wait until the animal dies naturally before sending it to the abatoire?

Sometimes the farmer is a poor African chap who needs to kill his only cow to feed his starving family. There is no other way to survive.

Many animals are killed in the bible, even for God's pleasure. (sacrifice)

Again it depends on the intention, they can also lead you to God.

How? Can you give a few examples? How can a lawyer be led to God doing his job?

PS. Thanks for the stuff.

You're welcome, thanks for your time and effort!

A4ever.....

Someone who is enlightened?

Yes.

I don't know. I think there is a form of believe in everything.

Science: we must trust the material world.
Religion: we must trust a book or our experiences or someone else.

If someone said to me I “MUST” trust, I wouldn’t trust them. :)

Do all good actions cause evil counter reactions?

No.

Why wasn't a 'better' world created?

There are innumerable better worlds, we just happen to be in this one.

It would still be tricking us though... not?

How can you trick a wise man.

Talking about little animals: what should you do when your dog has flees?
You can't kill them...

Firstly, the idea of keeping cats and dogs as pets (family members), keeping them in the house, sleeping on/in the bed in and out of the kitchen, is not something a serious devotee of God would do. If they kept dogs the dog would serve a practical purpose within its nature, and would be kept out of the house.
Fleas only becomes a problem to its owner, when the dog is in the house.
Question: what happens in the wild when animals have fleas?

But doesn't the bible say that we can eat animals? Somewhere in Genesis?

Yes, but under strict conditions.

At least animals are sacrificed in there.

Again under strict conditions.
There is a reason for those conditions,

Could you give a definition of mentality? It is a returning word and it seems important.

[mentality n 1: a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines
how you will interpret and respond to situations.

What are these few things?

What have you done these past 6 months?
I’m not trying to evade the question, my intention is for you to realise the answer for yourself.

What would be the right punishment?

Whatever would truly deter him from committing that act for whatever reason. He may undergo a situation where someone close to him gets killed by someone with a similar mentality, he could get killed and undergo the same fear as he had given out. He may be hanged, gassed or electrocuted the fear of which may be equal to the fear and disruption he caused. He may get a prison sentence long enough for him to attone for his act. There may be many ways he can be punished, but he himself would be the cause of any punishment given.

Also I should add that the punishment is only there to rehabilitate the person. Once the person attones for his actions the punishment ceases also, and the person benifits. For some souls their crimes are so heinous and therefore dangerous to people that they are sent to a hell for their rehabilitation. Once their souls are purified they again begin their ascent. Eternal damnation is for souls who have no intention of being rahabilitated, not eternal as in spiritual.

If we don't receive all reward in this life, the karmic equilibrum is not set,
so we have to come back to receive rewards??

Yes, that is my understanding.

Or is the reward not being born again? (makes more sense)

The reward would be exactly what you deserve. Not being born again means you have regained you original spiritual body and associate with God in His (Spiritual) Kingdom. That would mean your karmic debt has totally been wiped out.

If you're not ignorant, there is always intervention?

God is always present, ignorance blocks that. If you locked yourself in a dark room with no vent for light to come through, would it mean that the sunshine is not present?

If the devil can manipulate matter, than he could create such beasts of fairy tales, no?

He can give the illusion that one has been created, but God is the real creator.

You mean unless it has some specific purpose?

God is a sentient being, therefore if He likes he is capable of choosing for someone to slip off a cliff. Doesn’t mean He will necessarily, but he can. If He did choose for someone to slip of a cliff, that person, regardless of his condition, his soul would not be reborn in this material, he would be liberated.

Are you referring to the fact that this is what most people do?
So that in a way it is what the devil wants us to do, focusing on material life?

The former.

If so, then what is safe? What is there to do? How to fill a day?

The first class man spends his whole life serving God, the low class man spends his life serving his senses. And all the grey areas in between.

Jezus wasn't defended by God if I remember correctly. He did it all by himself.
(just trying to get more information.

4:9 And he said to him, "I will give you all these things if you fall down and worship me."

4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Go away, Satan! For it is written: 'You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him.

4:3 The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become bread."

4:4 But he answered,4 "It is written, 'Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

This may not at a first glance seem like God is protecting His devotee, but what is apparent is Jesus’ lack of fear and yeilding to temptation based on his faith, love and loyalty to his Father. How, by quoting the scripture of his Father. God is Absolute, therefore His words and name is non different to His Self. All bona-fide religions not only have a scripture but a name for God, and they are instructed to chant His name, this is how we can invoke Him.

What is real? What are the illusions?

It is said that “real” is what lasts eternally and “illusion” is that which is temporary.
Example; the soul is real, the body is illusion. That is not to say that the body is not real, it most certainly is.
Would you think someone was foolish if they spent loads of their hard earnt cash on renovating a property they were only renting?

But that still doesn't mean that what you hear is right.

That is why we have human intelligence so we can discriminate between truth and false.

Sometimes the farmer is a poor African chap who needs to kill his only cow to feed his starving family. There is no other way to survive.

If life depended on it, that is a different matter, it is understandable, but killing cows because little Johnny Mardypants wants a burger now, is unacceptable in a so-called civilized world. And killing them in such a barbaric way and not caring for their spiritual well-being isn’t good for anybody, including the eaters.

Many animals are killed in the bible, even for God's pleasure. (sacrifice)

Under strict conditions, and the soul of the animal progresses from animal to human in next life.

How? Can you give a few examples? How can a lawyer be led to God doing his job?

By doing his duty to the best of his ability, by meditating on God, by offering some of his wages to the service of God, so many ways. If he has to lie because his job demands it, then what can he do? This is how this world is organised at present and he has to make a living, also the current world situation demands that one has a lawyer to defend themself in a court of law.

Love

Jan Ardena.

There are innumerable better worlds, we just happen to be in this one.

I already knew that, I shouldn't have asked.

What I'm going to do is merge our posts so that I can read it as a text with questions and answers following each other.

That way you won't have to answer the same questions over and over again. :)

How can you trick a wise man.

That's true. If you consider the possibility that you were an African sjaman just yesterday, no tricking is possible.

Firstly, the idea of keeping cats and dogs as pets (family members), keeping them in the house, sleeping on/in the bed in and out of the kitchen, is not something a serious devotee of God would do.

Why? We have a ferret. We got him from an asylum. We want to give him a good life, and we do everything we can to make it that way.

A ferret would die when put in nature. It is a domestic variant of the bunzing.

I live in Belgium, it is too cold to put him outside. Besides, I would still like to pick him up and cuddle him, so we can have no fleas.

So are we acting wrong in the eyes of God?

Second question: would the intention of wanting to give a ferret a good life make for a karmic equilibrum when having to kill its fleas?

[mentality n 1: a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines

Yes... but I meant what this means:

The mentality that allows you to eat cows will be of the same quality in all you do.

You mean that when you can bring yourself to eat cows, this is just a symptom of a mentality that will cause you to do wrong in other areas as well?

what happens in the wild when animals have fleas?

Then the animal would have a very annoying problem. I don't know if fleas go away after a while.

But think about coakroach infested houses, grashopper swarms eating crops,... should we just let that be?

What have you done these past 6 months?

I went to classes, studied for the exams, spent my free time with my girlfriend and friends, in july I played way too much Morrowind, in august I spent way too much time on sciforums.

I ate and slept.

If you meant something else, just ask.

He may be hanged, gassed or electrocuted the fear of which may be equal to the fear and disruption he caused.

I am against capital punishment. Just wanted to say that. I understand the answer.

But we couldn't have him killed, that would cause major karmic debt.

Eternal damnation is for souls who have no intention of being rahabilitated, not eternal as in spiritual.

What is hell?

I thought it did not exist.

God is always present

In what way? Does he speak to us? Is he present in the form of a tree, a bird, a kind word?

Is there constant guiding? Is he our counscious?

He can give the illusion that one has been created

Could that illusion be as strong as the illusion of our body? In the sense that it is real, but not eternal?

(this is clearly not a religious question, but it is interesting to see such things from a religious point of view.)

The first class man spends his whole life serving God

How would he do that? Can he go see Man in Black II? Can he spend too much time on sciforums (:))

What I mean: there is this life out there, society. Serving God would be easy in a monastary, where everything points to God.

Outside my door, nothing points to God. How are you supposed to transcend that??

God is Absolute, therefore His words and name is non different to His Self

That's an inspiring thought, thanks.

All bona-fide religions not only have a scripture but a name for God, and they are instructed to chant His name, this is how we can invoke Him.

But God is already always there. Why chant?

What do you mean exactly by invoke?

Would you think someone was foolish if they spent loads of their hard earnt cash on renovating a property they were only renting?

Yes. So you mean: do not care to much for material things.

That is why we have human intelligence so we can discriminate between truth and false.

Human intellect fails, often and bigtime. Thousands of psychological tests show that.

but killing cows because little Johnny Mardypants wants a burger now, is unacceptable in a so-called civilized world.

I never heard that name, it is funny. :)

AND I do get the point. :)

And killing them in such a barbaric way and not caring for their spiritual well-being isn’t good for anybody, including the eaters.

Is their a way of killing them, caring for their spiritual well being? I suppose not, but somehow it seemed implied.

If he has to lie because his job demands it, then what can he do?

I will possibly be able to tell you in a few years...

note: Thank you for taking the time to answer all my sometimes trivial questions.

edit:

But the act of homosexuality is as evil/transgressitory as the act of (hetrasexual) adultery or peodophillia.

Why?

1) Have faith only in your own senses and reason.

2) Accept an objective reality. The world does not care about you.

3) Accept that everyone is fallible.

4) Take a hint from physics, try to achieve the lowest energy state. In other words, chill.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A4Ever
Why? We have a ferret. We got him from an asylum. We want to give him a good life, and we do everything we can to make it that way.

A ferret would die when put in nature. It is a domestic variant of the bunzing.

I live in Belgium, it is too cold to put him outside. Besides, I would still like to pick him up and cuddle him, so we can have no fleas.

So basically, the pet (or ancestors) has been taken from his homeland and brought here to work, and now has difficulty surviving in its present enviroment. Doesn’t that sound familiar to you?

There are obviously issues which lead to such relationships, and whatever is in your heart, is the reality of the situation. The caring of animals is very important in spiritual life, it shows that you view all creatures with equanimity.

A wise person would never colonise living entities in such a way as dull-minded, selfish people have colonised people and animals and still doing so. He would learn to live in harmony with rats and snakes, realising they too are sons of God, instead of bringing over species from another part of the world to be rid of them.
He would keep domestic animals to serve in a role which is conducive to their nature, he would not become attached.
Every living being is most happiest in their own environment.

So are we acting wrong in the eyes of God?

“Wrong” in this case means we are fooling ourselves, so that should read, “we are fooling ourselves in the eyes of God.”
This world is place in which we can come to the realisation that “I am not this body, I am a spirit-soul an eternal part and parcel of God” or we can act foolishly and waste our lives, the choice is ours.

Second question: would the intention of wanting to give a ferret a good life make for a karmic equilibrum when having to kill its fleas?

Lets try and work it out.

Is wanting to give pleasure and stability to someone less fortunate, a good thing or a bad thing?

Is your intention in anyway selfish?

Do you get pleasure from giving cuddles, or do you cuddle Mr. Ferret because he needs it and benefits by it?

If the latter, how do you know?

Does he get cuddles in the wild?

What do you know about ferrets, and do you try and make his life as ferret-like as possible?

Are you emotionally attached to Mr. Ferret?

Would you, if you could open a sanctuary for all stray animals, devote your life to their well-being?

If not, why not?

These few questions are only for the purpose of of our conversation, but there are so many issues involved with karma, that it is not as simple as the idea seems, it is very complex, but when answering them please try and be totally honest with yourself, and you will begin to understand yourself more deeply.

You mean that when you can bring yourself to eat cows, this is just a symptom of a mentality that will cause you to do wrong in other areas as well?

If we eat cows for our pleasure, then it means we do not realise the importance of 1) cows, 2) the cows life, 3) the spiritual implications etc. It means we lack a whole section of understand and we therefore do everything with this lack of understanding.

If from the moment we are born we are taught that 1+1=3, then our whole calculation system would be wrong, throughout our life, until somebody shows us the correct way.

Then the animal would have a very annoying problem. I don't know if fleas go away after a while.

They either go away, or the animal tolerates or kill them, that is natures way. Either way the animal would go about his business until he died. Material nature is very harsh and does not discriminate, if a cute little baby puts his hand in the fire, nature isn’t going to say “Ah what a little cutie, I will not burn him,” she will burn him without delay.

But think about coakroach infested houses, grashopper swarms eating crops,... should we just let that be?

Under such circumstances you may have to kill, because your life and health are at stake, but you still have to accept the reactions because that is natures law. Plants and trees are also regarded as living entities, so we must at some point kill.
Apart from that, we are regular killing machines, think about all the life we kill just walking ten yards, when having a bath, when scratching, when eating, when sleeping, when having sex, driving. Everything is accounted for, no stone is left unturned.

Do you know why yogis sit absolutely still for years? Their aim is cease all action so that they don’t receive any karmic reactions, therefore achieve liberation from the material world. Or some just want to go to one of the heavenly planets where they can seriously gratify their senses.

I understand you are a practising lawyer. If someone killed a person out of self defence, would his sentence be the same as someone who killed for pleasure?

I went to classes, studied for the exams, spent my free time with my girlfriend and friends, in july I played way too much Morrowind, in august I spent way too much time on sciforums.

I ate and slept

You went to class, to learn I persume?
Study for exams, so you can become qualified, get a well paid job, buy nice house with nice things in, eat in nice resteraunts, get married, have nice sexual relationship with beautiful wife, maybe raise a family.

Spent time with girlfriend, hmmm……she makes me feel so good. And I enjoy making her feel so good, hmmm…….pleasurable.

Played a lot of games, with other people, must win, and when I win I will defend my status.

I will come on sci-forums, see if there are any good discussions going on, may even enter into a debate and if I think my point is right, I will defend it.

My point is, what is the point of your activities, it may seem that you had a hectic 6 months, but really you only want to achieve 3or 4 things, therefore your energy is directed thus.
All living beings basically strive for these points in their own mentality.
Same few results, loads of different combinations.

But we couldn't have him killed, that would cause major karmic debt.

Not if the judgement was just. The judge is authorised by the state to judge people fairly and give out the right punishment for the crime. It is not unreasonable that a murderer should lose his life for taking other lives.
But I agree with you that in this day and age capital punishment cannot be trusted and therefore could cause serious karmic debt, not only for his executioners but for anybody who supported the act.

What is hell?

I would say it is a condition, a place of complete ignorance where one comes face to face at every moment with ones own fear.
In vedic literature it gives information of different types of hells for different types of mentality.
The universe is divided into 14 planetary systems, these systems are divided into 3 sections, namely upper (heavenly), middle (earthly) and lower (hellish), otherwise known as the 3 worlds.
The soul, according to its activities transmigrates between the 3 worlds.

In what way? Does he speak to us? Is he present in the form of a tree, a bird, a kind word?

He speaks directly to His pure devotees, Jesus, Mohammad (p.b.u.h), etc… He speaks through his devotees, through the scripture, to the yogi who meditates on His supersoul feature in the heart. He speaks through music through art, through the ability of learned and great people. He speaks through His wonderful creation, but is often mistaken as nature. How long as the sun been doing his thing, the precision of the movement of the sun is mind numbing, a slight deviation one way the earth is covered in ice, the other way it is burned to a cinder. Who is controlling that.


Is there constant guiding? Is he our counscious?

No, we are our conscious (conscience), but according vedic literature He is constantly in our hearts throughout our whole existence and will guide us if necassery.

In the Bhagavad Gita, He remained friends with Arjuna until Arjuna became so overwhelmed and perplexed he surrendered himself to Krishna and asked Krishna to guide him. Up until that point Krishna acted perfectly as a friend to Arjuna.
In the same way He accompanies us in our heart as friend until we ask for His help, then he directs us. In one sense He is our only friend as he knows us very intimately and never leaves our side, even if we go to hell.

Could that illusion be as strong as the illusion of our body? In the sense that it is real, but not eternal?

Have you seen some of these wonderful magicians? Does their illusions not look real? Can you find a fault with them?
Yet we know they are tricks, think how a devil could trick.

How would he do that?

By altering your perception, just like a good magician, but thousands of times more powerful. It is said that we are, at a molecular level, vibrating at different frequencies, that we are not actually solid. If that is the case, we can be manipulated through sound and probably to the point of reconfiguration, this subject is out of my depth but I aim to learn more. Different frequencies mean different configurations. If your frequency changes, your perception changes. A good example is music, if you are deeply into rap music, you begin to wear rap clothes, talk in a rap way, have sex, eat, fight, reason etc..in short your whole perception changes from what it was before.
In the same way, when we hear about God from a self-realised soul, when we chant and sing the holy name of God, when we eat prashadam (food which has been offered to God) our vibration changes and we become more spiritualized.

Can he go see Man in Black II? (:))

Yes.

Went to watch that movie yesterday, thoroughly enjoyed it. I wish they would come out with sequels everymonth, same with Star Wars.

Can he spend too much time on sciforums (:))

Yes

What I mean: there is this life out there, society. Serving God would be easy in a monastary, where everything points to God.

Why would you have to be in a monestary to serve God? Besides look at the Catholic church (monastary), some of those so-called priests really have the wrong idea, don't they? But if you can find a place where God is actually being worshiped, then yes i guess it would be alot easier.

When you become a lawyer, will you only serve the law society in a courtroom or will you be conscious of the law for the rest of your life?

But God is already always there. Why chant?

So we can remember Him always. Our main problem is our memory, it is very short. :(

What do you mean exactly by invoke?

He is an Absolute Being, He is fully omnipotent, that means every part of Himself has the same potency of every part of Himself. That means He can eat with his toes, mind, hair or any part of Himself. He can see with his eyelash, he can impregnate by a mere glance. So if you call His name, he is also present within the sound.

Yes. So you mean: do not care to much for material things.

Only what is necessary, I suppose.

Is their a way of killing them, caring for their spiritual well being? I suppose not, but somehow it seemed implied.

Yes, in one of the earlier books of the old testament, Dueteronomy (I think) God explains to moses how to kill certain animals.
In Islam also, in fact in all religions there are strict guidelines, rules and regulations regarding the slaughter of animals. As I said before the benefit is for the animal.

But the act of homosexuality is as evil/transgressitory as the act of (hetrasexual) adultery or peodophillia.

Why?

I’ll try and get back to you on that.

note: Thank you for taking the time to answer all my sometimes trivial questions.

No problem, i really like talking about God, the more i talk or listen about Him, the more i realise His greatness, so thank you for allowing me this great pleasure. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

So basically, the pet (or ancestors) has been taken from his homeland and brought here to work

I think the Romans started to keep it as a hunter and companion. So yes, you are right.

There are obviously issues which lead to such relationships, and whatever is in your heart, is the reality of the situation.

Then I think we're ok in that department. :)

I suppose that this is also the salvation of all those farmers: many of them really care for the animals, even when killing them, making it quick and painless.

This world is place in which we can come to the realisation that “I am not this body, I am a spirit-soul an eternal part and parcel of God” or we can act foolishly and waste our lives, the choice is ours.

But once we realise that, what is there to do? I think you would answer serving God. Which could mean (when taking one book) following in the footsteps of Christ. Then we are freed from the cycle of birth and death.

Am I getting good at answering my own questions or what? :)

But there are things which are hard to qualify on the karmic scale. You said you went to see MIIB. How did that help you in realising that you are not this body, that you are a spirit-soul, an eternal part and parcel of God?

You know I'm not fundamentalistic, I just want to know how everyday life fits in the theological background. (so it would be apreciated if you expanded beyond that one movie :) )

To take it one step further: maybe going to that movie gave you some karmic debt. You paid money to a big corporation. God knows what it does with the money.

Making movies like that costs enourmous amounts of money, which could be better spent. Shouldn't we have to boycot absurdities like that? (just provocing answers. :) --- You can think that way about A LOT of things, hence all those questions in the same direction.)

Is wanting to give pleasure and stability to someone less fortunate, a good thing or a bad thing?

It's a good thing. (why? cause that's what's in my heart and what is in there is the reality of the situation?)

Is your intention in anyway selfish?

Yes. I like the particular species. I would not care for a black widow spider to the same extent. (although if the situation was there, I would take care of it if that was possible without getting bitten ->feed it, ...)

Do you get pleasure from giving cuddles, or do you cuddle Mr. Ferret because he needs it and benefits by it?

Mr Ferret? :)

Of course I get pleasure from it, cause he reacts in a nice way. I think it is safe to say that ferrets need that form of attention. Ferrets cuddle each other, they clean each other etc... they are very social. If they don't get that kind of attention, they get really sad, no kidding.

So yes, he benefits from it.

He also needs to play, and in the fact that he returns the playing, it shows he likes it. Ferrets play with each other.

What do you know about ferrets, and do you try and make his life as ferret-like as possible?

We read as much as we could before getting him. We mind every possible detail: no straw (the nose!), no milk (they die), things to crawl away in (my girlfriend made a sleeping sack and a cloth that hangs in the cage for him to lie in), fresh water, high quality food (needs more proteins than cats do)...

Convinced yet? :)

Are you emotionally attached to Mr. Ferret?

Yes, although I realise I will have to let go in 5 to 12 years.

Would you, if you could open a sanctuary for all stray animals, devote your life to their well-being?

Of course if we aimed all our energy in that direction, we could do that, but it is not what we have chosen to do.

What should I derive from these answers? I think I've been fairly honest. Please tell me what you think.

If from the moment we are born we are taught that 1+1=3, then our whole calculation system would be wrong, throughout our life, until somebody shows us the correct way.

I understand.

Everything is accounted for, no stone is left unturned.

There will be minor karmic debt because of the circumstances?

If we eat cows for our pleasure,

What if we eat cow to not stir up social situations?

Or some just want to go to one of the heavenly planets where they can seriously gratify their senses.

Is this an aspect of the spiritual body? Gratifying senses to reality, as opposed to illusions?

I understand you are a practising lawyer. If someone killed a person out of self defence, would his sentence be the same as someone who killed for pleasure?

I am still studying to become something that is the equivalent of master in law (which does not mean I can be considered a bachelor, after all, this is Belgium :) )

After that, I may become a lawyer. I think it is the best thing I can do.

The sentences would differ. So that answers the coakroach type questions.

You went to class, to learn I persume?

Yes.

So basically, the pet (or ancestors) has been taken from his homeland and brought here to work

I think the Romans started to keep it as a hunter and companion. So yes, you are right.

There are obviously issues which lead to such relationships, and whatever is in your heart, is the reality of the situation.

Then I think we're ok in that department. :)

I suppose that this is also the salvation of all those farmers: many of them really care for the animals, even when killing them, making it quick and painless.

This world is place in which we can come to the realisation that “I am not this body, I am a spirit-soul an eternal part and parcel of God” or we can act foolishly and waste our lives, the choice is ours.

But once we realise that, what is there to do? I think you would answer serving God. Which could mean (when taking one book) following in the footsteps of Christ. Then we are freed from the cycle of birth and death.

Am I getting good at answering my own questions or what? :)

But there are things which are hard to qualify on the karmic scale. You said you went to see MIIB. How did that help you in realising that you are not this body, that you are a spirit-soul, an eternal part and parcel of God?

You know I'm not fundamentalistic, I just want to know how everyday life fits in the theological background. (so it would be apreciated if you expanded beyond that one movie :) )

To take it one step further: maybe going to that movie gave you some karmic debt. You paid money to a big corporation. God knows what it does with the money.

Making movies like that costs enourmous amounts of money, which could be better spent. Shouldn't we have to boycot absurdities like that? (just provocing answers. :) --- You can think that way about A LOT of things, hence all those questions in the same direction.)

Is wanting to give pleasure and stability to someone less fortunate, a good thing or a bad thing?

It's a good thing. (why? cause that's what's in my heart and what is in there is the reality of the situation?)

Is your intention in anyway selfish?

Yes. I like the particular species. I would not care for a black widow spider to the same extent. (although if the situation was there, I would take care of it if that was possible without getting bitten ->feed it, ...)

Do you get pleasure from giving cuddles, or do you cuddle Mr. Ferret because he needs it and benefits by it?

Mr Ferret? :)

Of course I get pleasure from it, cause he reacts in a nice way. I think it is safe to say that ferrets need that form of attention. Ferrets cuddle each other, they clean each other etc... they are very social. If they don't get that kind of attention, they get really sad, no kidding.

So yes, he benefits from it.

He also needs to play, and in the fact that he returns the playing, it shows he likes it. Ferrets play with each other.

What do you know about ferrets, and do you try and make his life as ferret-like as possible?

We read as much as we could before getting him. We mind every possible detail: no straw (the nose!), no milk (they die), things to crawl away in (my girlfriend made a sleeping sack and a cloth that hangs in the cage for him to lie in), fresh water, high quality food (needs more proteins than cats do)...

Convinced yet? :)

Are you emotionally attached to Mr. Ferret?

Yes, although I realise I will have to let go in 5 to 12 years.

Would you, if you could open a sanctuary for all stray animals, devote your life to their well-being?

Of course if we aimed all our energy in that direction, we could do that, but it is not what we have chosen to do.

What should I derive from these answers? I think I've been fairly honest. Please tell me what you think.

If from the moment we are born we are taught that 1+1=3, then our whole calculation system would be wrong, throughout our life, until somebody shows us the correct way.

I understand.

Everything is accounted for, no stone is left unturned.

There will be minor karmic debt because of the circumstances?

If we eat cows for our pleasure,

What if we eat cow to not stir up social situations?

Or some just want to go to one of the heavenly planets where they can seriously gratify their senses.

Is this an aspect of the spiritual body? Gratifying senses to reality, as opposed to illusions?

I understand you are a practising lawyer. If someone killed a person out of self defence, would his sentence be the same as someone who killed for pleasure?

I am still studying to become something that is the equivalent of master in law (which does not mean I can be considered a bachelor, after all, this is Belgium :) )

After that, I may become a lawyer. I think it is the best thing I can do.

The sentences would differ. So that answers the coakroach type questions.

You went to class, to learn I persume?

Yes.

To be very honest: sometimes to not feel guilty. :)

Played a lot of games, with other people, must win, and when I win I will defend my status.

Well, it is a solitary game, but in a way you are right. I talked about it a lot with someone who finished it, we compared,...

I try to ditch games, they take too much time and serve absolutely no purpose than to numb my mind.

The wasted potential.

All living beings basically strive for these points in their own mentality.

Pleasure, status and...?

But even with two examples I get the point. And I know all this. But what do you do to fill your days? :)

What a mentality does the wise man have? He plays no power games? Does he just sit there smiling, letting everything pass? While people insult him? While others take the positions he has a right to?

Don't you think it is possible to have a relationship with a woman without just seeking your own pleasure? I certainly aim for that.

may even enter into a debate and if I think my point is right, I will defend it.

Isn't that a good thing? A poster with no opinion can't contribute much.

(look for posts like this: PIKA! pika? chu! :) )

The soul, according to its activities transmigrates between the 3 worlds.

Even at the snap of a finger right?

Is this transmigration between two lives OR (what I think) is it depending on one self?

Take the yogi: he achieves heavenly pleasure without dieing. Take the fearful person: he creates his own hell.

He speaks through music through art, through the ability of learned and great people.

How do you know which music? I can show you lyrics of which I'm pretty sure that God did not inspire them.

Also, so many liars and cheats among the 'wise' men.

No, we are our conscious (conscience), but according vedic literature He is constantly in our hearts throughout our whole existence and will guide us if necassery.

:o :o :o

And to think I know that word...

I understand the idea.

Besides look at the Catholic church (monastary), some of those so-called priests really have the wrong idea, don't they?

Yeah. How many priests would consider reading Bhagavad Gita? Come on! A BLUE God?? :) :) (I don't yet know if he is described in there as blue, but in pictures he often is.)

But this is all changing. I think there are many people who take a broader perspective.

I’ll try and get back to you on that.

That would be interesting.

i really like talking about God, the more i talk or listen about Him, the more i realise His greatness

It is safe to say you are a self realised person, no? (don't have to answer that). I don't think you spend hours searching for the right verses to answer my questions. You grasp general ideas and derive from that?

Is there still a difference with enlightment?

Thanks!


****EDIT****: I couldn't post this in one time, so I had to cut in in 3 pieces.

****EDIT #2****: maybe I broke the longest post record *LOL*

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A4Ever
But once we realise that, what is there to do? I think you would answer serving God.

Do you love your girlfriend, do you serve her lovingly??
If yes, now that you do……..what then?
Has everything come to a standstill?
Are you bored now?
Do you enjoy each day knowing that you love this person and she loves you?
Do you miss her when she is away too long?
Do you think about her when she is away?
Does things remind you of her, when she is away?
Do you move on to another girl because you have gone as far as you could with the current one?

When we begin to understand God, it is not dogmatic, a system of rules and regulations (these we need to become more purified), you become affectionate for Him, you form a relationship. This is why we read about His pastimes, why we chant His name. He reciprocates, but not with money, women, houses, cars etc...but (although He has been known to give wealth ;)) with trancendental knowledge of Him. He is the goal of life, when you hear a song which tells of an everlasting love between a man and woman, sub-consciously the singer is singing about God.
Well i think so anywayz. :)

Am I getting good at answering my own questions or what? :)

I would say so, but I’m not the one to ask, you are.

You said you went to see MIIB. How did that help you in realising that you are not this body, that you are a spirit-soul, an eternal part and parcel of God?

I didn’t go for that purpose, I went to gratify my senses. I enjoy those types of films, spiritually I did myself no favours. But I do enjoy the concepts of such films, they make me think about God and how great He is. Plus i am a bit of an amatuer conspiracy theorist. ;)

Do you seriously watch kids television, where they teach the alphabet and sums, and they put it all to some rinkydink music?
I’ll bet you don’t, and I’m sure I know why, because it is too childish, yes? There is nothing to learn? You know that stuff already? The music is silly? Big purple dinosaurs don’t sing? Its just an illusion to get the children to take things on board?

Well, to a self realised person, that is what he sees and hears when he goes to the cinema, unless it is a film depicting his Lord. And what are the chances of that? :rolleyes:

You know I'm not fundamentalistic, I just want to know how everyday life fits in the theological background. (so it would be apreciated if you expanded beyond that one movie :) )

Why don’t you try it, that’s the only way you will truly find out. You don’t have to be a fundamentalist, just try and learn more about God, even from a distance, and see for yourself.

To take it one step further: maybe going to that movie gave you some karmic debt. You paid money to a big corporation. God knows what it does with the money.

Agreed.
Unfortunately, we cannot move without funding such organisations. This is why the method of religion changes over time (becomes simpler). As the world technologically progresses, we are evermore dragged into performing inauspicious acts (known or not) in order to satiate our senses.
Read more about lust.
In this way it becomes near impossible to live an austere life. God, being very kind makes religion suitable for this particular age. The religion for this age is to chant the holy names of God, whereas in the past it was much more difficult to gain salvation, but the life situation was not as complex and spiritless as it is now.

Making movies like that costs enourmous amounts of money, which could be better spent. Shouldn't we have to boycot absurdities like that? (just provocing answers. :)

That is a personal thing, the way it is applied in some Christian denominations, it is called dogma. The intention is good, but it doesn’t actually benefit some even most of the people, because they feel they are missing out on something. The only way, I think to stop spending money on these illusions is through intelligence, coming to the conclusion for yourself, that way there is no hankering.

Convinced yet? :)

Yes. :)

Yes, although I realise I will have to let go in 5 to 12 years.

Why? Is that is life expectancy.

What should I derive from these answers? I think I've been fairly honest. Please tell me what you think.

What good is my opinion regarding what is in your heart, here is a description of a perfect person, from a perfect person, put your description against this, then see how you fair.

Chapter 16, Verse 1-3.
The Blessed Lord said: Fearlessness, purification of one's existence, cultivation of spiritual knowledge, charity, self-control, performance of sacrifice, study of the Vedas, austerity and simplicity; nonviolence, truthfulness, freedom from anger; renunciation, tranquility, aversion to faultfinding, compassion and freedom from covetousness; gentleness, modesty and steady determination; vigor, forgiveness, fortitude, cleanliness, freedom from envy and the passion for honor--these transcendental qualities, O son of Bharata, belong to godly men endowed with divine nature.

Love

Jan Ardena.

P.S. How'd ya do?

Has everything come to a standstill?

No.

I understand what you mean.

He is the goal of life, when you hear a song which tells of an everlasting love between a man and woman, sub-consciously the singer is singing about God.

I will try to listen to them in that way. :) Do you think all lyrics can be brought back to God?

By the way, one of your sentences is pretty similar to some great lyrics:

you wrote:

“I am not this body, I am a spirit-soul an eternal part and parcel of God”

Tool wrote:

This body holding me, reminding me that I am not alone in
This body makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

I have a feeling I already told you this...

But I do enjoy the concepts of such films, they make me think about God and how great He is.

How exactly?

Plus i am a bit of an amatuer conspiracy theorist.

http://www.cowan70.freeserve.co.uk/index/index_conspiracy.htm

Have a blast! :) :)

I’ll bet you don’t, and I’m sure I know why, because it is too childish, yes?

I really like stuff like Sesame Street.

But I am not trying to debunk your point, cause I get it.

unless it is a film depicting his Lord. And what are the chances of that?

There are a lot of those. They should put them on a dvd set: God volumes I to... :)

I really enjoy movies about the life of Jesus. It makes his life feel more real. I wasn't raised in any religion. I thought the Bible was written in a strange way, it didn't seem like Jesus was a real man. But then I saw a movie which showed his human side. "God, if it is your will, let this pass."

just try and learn more about God, even from a distance, and see for yourself.

It's time to move on to what's beyond the difficult names. Only Arjuna and Krishna were doable. :)

Why? Is that is life expectancy.

Yes. I've read seven years, I've read fifteen. Let us hope for the fifteen.

What good is my opinion regarding what is in your heart, here is a description of a perfect person, from a perfect person, put your description against this, then see how you fair.

I know.

P.S. How'd ya do?

At the exams? I passed.

So how can we discuss Bhagavad Gita in an interesting way?

Thanks!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A4Ever
I will try to listen to them in that way. :) Do you think all lyrics can be brought back to God?

I think so, but I think it also depends on whoever is listening, or in other words, it is relative.

By the way, one of your sentences is pretty similar to some great lyrics:

you wrote:

“I am not this body, I am a spirit-soul an eternal part and parcel of God”

Tool wrote:

This body holding me, reminding me that I am not alone in
This body makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Good lyrics. Tool is obviously aware of some reality. How do you think he came to these conclusions?

I have a feeling I already told you this...

Nope, we’ve talked about exchanging lyrics we like, and try to understand them from a deeper percpective. My next post will be a lyric.

How exactly?

Have you read the Mahabharata? All these kind of films, MIIB, Starwars, The Matrix, are loosely based on it, but they do not come up to scratch, although they are very good.
I heard that Steven Spielberg may direct the Mahabhata in the future, I hope he does.

http://www.cowan70.freeserve.co.uk/index/index_conspiracy.htm

Thanks, I’ve not come across this site before.

I really enjoy movies about the life of Jesus.

But they don’t make many of them, compared with films with a Luciferic consciousness.

It's time to move on to what's beyond the difficult names.
Only Arjuna and Krishna were doable. :)

I know, they can get wrapped round your tongue can’t they. Eventually it becomes a lot easier, in fact the language (sanskrit) begins to sound beautiful, but then I am a bit bias.

At the exams? I passed.

No, I meant with your self assessment.
Congratulations on your exam results. :)

So how can we discuss Bhagavad Gita in an interesting way?

As long as we talk about BG, it is in an interesting way. The more you get into it, the more you will realise your own self, that is guaranteed.

Love

Jan Ardena.

How do you think he came to these conclusions?

((Tool is the name of a band.))

I think they tried drugs like lsd and kethamine. They help you realise the multiple universes or something.

They obviously read a lot of stuff. They use a lot of eastern symbols and concepts, like the shakras. There is also obvious interest for astronomy and literature.

The answer: self realisation.

My next post will be a lyric.

Cool! I'm curious what you listen to. :)

Have you read the Mahabharata?

No, I'll look for some information on the net.

A friend of mine told me that star wars was based on the book the hero with the thousand faces.

Of course there are many influences.

But they don’t make many of them, compared with films with a Luciferic consciousness.

I know, but sometimes you have to look very good. Take Devil's advocate. Everybody thinks Pacino is so cool as the devil, and he is, but he loses. There is always free will: that was a great message.

in fact the language (sanskrit) begins to sound beautiful, but then I am a bit bias.

Sanskrit is a bit like singing. Or maybe they are singing because it is the Gita.

No, I meant with your self assessment.

Do you mean when I compare myself to the perfect person in the case of the ferret?

Congratulations on your exam results.

Thanks!

As long as we talk about BG, it is in an interesting way.

OK, I'll try to read some verses.

Cool! I'm curious what you listen to.

I am a musician, I play most instruments, but my main one is the kit drums. I love all kinds of music, from indigenous Aussie music, to rap, to classical, to rock, to jazz, to the blues, to film scores, to reggea, to ragga, to soca, to marengi, to soul both old and new, to gospel, to music that awakens the soul, almost all kinds. When I don’t like a piece, it is because I cannot feel any expression, or the expression is false, contrived or overdone. Or the expression is excellent, but the content is too distatefull for my liking. So you may well be surprised, beware.

A friend of mine told me that star wars was based on the book the hero with the thousand faces.

Of course there are many influences.

Of course your friend may be right, but the origin of interplanetary war between the good (light) and bad (dark),surely has to lay with the Mahabharata.

Everybody thinks Pacino is so cool as the devil, and he is, but he loses. There is always free will: that was a great message.

I know what you’re saying, but did you see the look on the devils face, after he had been defeated, he didn’t look too pissed to me, you kinda got the feeling, he’s thinking “you won this time, but I will get you” and breaks out in Vincent Price, Hammer House of horror, blood curdling, fiendish laugh.

You said “he loses,” that would imply that his son had won. My personal philosophy on that is there are no winners in this game of life, just varying degrees of losers, you win when the game ends.

Sanskrit is a bit like singing. Or maybe they are singing because it is the Gita.

You got that right!!!

Bhagavad Gita = Song of God.

Do you mean when I compare myself to the perfect person in the case of the ferret?

Yes, either in the case of the ferret, or just you in general.

The standard is very high don’t you think, this was the standard of Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

When I don’t like a piece, it is because I cannot feel any expression, or the expression is false, contrived or overdone.

That's what I call: "the music must be real." So I listen to all kinds of genres, as long as the person bringing it is not faking it.

I do add non sensical noise to that, for pure entertainment. :)

Or the expression is excellent, but the content is too distatefull for my liking.

For example: Wumpscut. Excellent music (if you like that stuff of course) but dead embryo's are not my thing.

there are no winners in this game of life, just varying degrees of losers, you win when the game ends.

I was thinking something like that the other day: should we celebrate life as a precious gift, or focus on the fact that it is an illusion and hate it?

Celebrate: it is a gift, it is what we wanted,...

Hate: it is not real, people die, we can accumulate karmic debt,...

Curious about the lyric! :)

For example: Wumpscut. Excellent music (if you like that stuff of course) but dead embryo's are not my thing.

I’ve never heard of this band, please tell me more.

Celebrate: it is a gift, it is what we wanted,...

Our problems begin with “what we want” it is not always in our best interest.
We are forced to act, there is never a moment when we are inactive. Our actions, I believe, are basically of two kinds, lamenting or hankering, if we don’t get what we hanker for then we lament, this builds and builds until we leave the body, and then, according to some philosophies, we carry on where we left off in another body, suitable to our desires. So in essence, life is a gift, no matter which way we look at it, to understand it the right way i.e. God consciousness, it is the greatest gift. But to understand it in a selfish way, it can be a bit of a bugger. :)

Hate: it is not real, people die, we can accumulate karmic debt,...

I believe life is very real, what is not real, are the things we lament and hanker for.
It is because of this illusion we accumulate karmic debt.
Nature isn’t designed to be a comfortable ride, things are made hard for a purpose. ;)

Hate is a negative and limiting emotion, it serves about as much purpose as trying to type a novel in complete darkness (hate being the darkness). You would make mistakes typing that novel, and you would make serious life errors acting hatefully.

I think the first lesson we have to learn, is to love “unconditionally.” :)

See if you can work this out. (I bet its real easy for you)

Hard=easy and easy=hard.

Curious about the lyric!

In due time, just mustering up the vibes. ;)

CHeck pm!

Love

Jan Ardena.

Is Hate just living in those destructive forces?

Is Hate a living force?

And If Hate is force does that not mean one could use its energy to nourrish him self?

p.s

In a sense use hatred to fuel a darker awakening?

Is Hate just living in those destructive forces?

In what destructive forces?

Is Hate a living force?

The living force is the person.
If a person becomes consumed by ignorance, then the ignorance will appear as a living force, a bit like when someone wears a pair of trousers, the trousers acts like the legs.

And If Hate is force does that not mean one could use its energy to nourrish him self?

I think when in such a state, that we are compelled to hate, then we have already become nourished

In a sense use hatred to fuel a darker awakening?

Such as?

Love

Jan Ardena.

In what destructive forces?

Is it natural in the universe to have have destruction? It is all around us just as creation. Could this be a source of energy?

The living force is the person. If a person becomes consumed by ignorance, then the ignorance will appear as a living force, a bit like when someone wears a pair of trousers, the trousers acts like the legs.


Granted but hatred does not mean ignorance, those lost in hatred may know exactly what they do the pain they cause but still they may be aware. Would awerness realy make the destinction betwwen Manevolent and Benevolent? Essentialy does one who has awakend just wake up and understand?Would it depend soley onthe conclusions the now waked sleeper makes?


I think when in such a state, that we are compelled to hate, then we have already become nourished

Uhh I don't get it could you rephrase it for me?

In a sense use hatred to fuel a darker awakening?

If it takes simply a large amount of energy to become an immortal then could you draw it from a way of manevolence and not a way of benevolence?

I am in know way certain of this or anything.

Is it natural in the universe to have have destruction? It is all around us just as creation. Could this be a source of energy?

You are right, but this type of destruction has nothing to do with hate, as you say it is natural.

Granted but hatred does not mean ignorance, those lost in hatred may know exactly what they do the pain they cause but still they may be aware.

But that is not “knowledge,” that is just ignorance. A kills B because B looked at his girlfriend a bit too long, think of all the things A didn’t see, before committing his act.

Would awerness realy make the destinction betwwen Manevolent and Benevolent?

Using the example of A and B, yes I think so.

Essentialy does one who has awakend just wake up and understand?

You have to be more specific in your question.

Awakened to what/who?
What do you mean in this regard, “essentially?”
Wake up from what?
Understand what?

Uhh I don't get it could you rephrase it for me?

You asked,

And If Hate is force does that not mean one could use its energy to nourrish him self?

I answered,


I think when in such a state, that we are compelled to hate, then we have already become nourished

I don’t think there is a natural dark force, but a neutral and natural force. I think force exists because the supreme force exists (God), and that portion of force which is allotted to man, to utalise within their own existence, is consciousness (life). Therefore if ones consciousness is consumed with lust, anger, greed and envy, then all their expression of force will have that signature. Lust, anger, envy and greed is the cause of hatred.

If it takes simply a large amount of energy to become an immortal…..

What do you mean?

I am in know way certain of this or anything.

Are you not certain of anything?

Love

Jan Ardena.

You are right, but this type of destruction has nothing to do with hate, as you say it is natural.

I am talking about the emotional energy of passion since love and hatred are realy just examples of passion. People draw power from love just has hatred. Ignorance and hatred are not he same thing. Hatred is a passion, Ignorance is having un-concsious mind.

But that is not “knowledge,”

Never said it was but it is a path that one can choose to walk. But if you are concsious knowledge comes with out effort. What conclusion are made really depend on the concsiousness that dreams it up.

But that is not “knowledge,” that is just ignorance. A kills B because B looked at his girlfriend a bit too long, think of all the things A didn’t see, before committing his act.

Even if A new the all factor he may still choose to kill B. Even if the truth is known there still is choice. Can you tell the difference between good and evil? Does good or evil really exist out side our preseptions is it an inffallible [/B]truth[/B]?

Using the example of A and B, yes I think so.

Why?


Essentialy does one who has awakend just wake up and understand?
Awakened to what/who?
What do you mean in this regard, “essentially?”
Wake up from what?
Understand what?

If I knew I would tell you.



I don’t think there is a natural dark force, but a neutral and natural force. I think force exists because the supreme force exists (God), and that portion of force which is allotted to man, to utalise within their own existence, is consciousness (life). Therefore if ones consciousness is consumed with lust, anger, greed and envy, then all their expression of force will have that signature. Lust, anger, envy and greed is the cause of hatred

The truth is beyond though so how can we concieve it with our litereary minds? Lust, Greed and Envy to me are just more exaples of passions that if not tended to will lead one furth away from the truth.

The immortals thing is a whole other topic but in a nut shell I mean one has created a spirts body. (Blah BLah Blah Golden pill etc...)

Are you not certain of anything?

In the realm of the universe not at all. My entire mind is recompiled every day it is in constant state change to hold on to one state would only be foolish. But in my own life there are some thing I Trust in. (Ei: myself, my lover...)

I am talking about the emotional energy of passion since love and hatred are realy just examples of passion.

Passion is a word which describes ones state of consciousness and or mind, it only becomes tangible through action of some kind. Emotional energy comes from the person.

Ignorance and hatred are not he same thing.

I’m sorry if I gave the impression that they were the same thing, what I meant was, it is through ignorance that we hate, it is self evident.

Hatred is a passion, Ignorance is having un-concsious mind.

Ignorance;

The condition of being ignorant; the want of knowledge in general, or in relation to a particular subject; the state of being uneducated or uninformed.

the lack of knowledge or education

Can you tell the difference between good and evil?

To a certain degree, yes.

Does good or evil really exist out side our preseptions

Yes, I don’t see why not, what do you think?

is it an inffallible [/B]truth[/B]?

No……I would say they are different degrees of conditioned consciousness, but through goodness one can come to the platform of approach the infallible Truth, God.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Passion is a word which describes ones state of consciousness and or mind, it only becomes tangible through action of some kind. Emotional energy comes from the person.
Emotional energy, passionate energy what is the difference?
To me it pretty much has the same meaning

it is through ignorance that we hate, it is self evident.
Granted igronace is a vehicle for hatred but even if some one is not ignorant they hate. Hatred is in a form of its self
Ignorance; The condition of being ignorant; the want of knowledge in general, or in relation to a particular subject; the state of being uneducated or uninformed.

Please use your own definitions. I find it allows us to furthere the debate insteed of relying on what some one else has already said. Words are mearly represent truth not truth in its self.

Can you tell the difference between good and evil? To a certain degree, yes.

Do you know for sure? Define good and Evil

Does good or evil really exist out side our preseptions Just as much as hatred and ignornace

No……I would say they are different degrees of conditioned consciousness, but through goodness one can come to the platform of approach the infallible Truth, God.

How do YOU know god is the truth?(Use philosophy not theology I wanna hear what you have to say not what some one else has written)

Emotional energy, passionate energy what is the difference?
To me it pretty much has the same meaning

I understand what you mean, but upon closer inspection, they play different roles. Emotion is a feeling of some sort (happiness, sadness, joy, elation, love, hate), it is a state of feeling, an expression which is beyond the body and rational mind but affects the body, mind and soul profoundly. It is a higher expression.

When one is passionate about something, it means they have a strong desire to achieve, therefore they are very often self-centered and proud. Usually you will find that a passionate person is never satisfied with his lot and always seeks to achieve more, the more passionate one becomes, the more important he thinks he is and anybody who does not meet with his percieved standard, becomes less important. this is the nature of passion.

When emotion is mixed with passion, then you get a powerful expression, this expression can be fantastically joyful and wonderful for the recipients, or it can be extremely potent and dangerous, it all depends on the type of emotion. Usually though, even if in the beginning the emotion is positive, because it is fuelled by passion, ultimately it is doomed.

even if some one is not ignorant they hate.

If one is essentially good, then the concept of hate has no meaning, because one understands that everything material is only temporary, and though someone may act maliciously toward them, they know it is because they are in the mode of passion or ignorance, and not in full control of themselves. They understand that there actions are fully under the control of the temporal material nature.

Please use your own definitions.

Normally I do, but the posters here are generally so hung up on logic, that while here, I give dictionary meanings of words so they can understand.

Words are mearly represent truth not truth in its self.

Words can reprisent the truth, but not always. Essentially they reprisent the mundane aspect of the person, depending on the personality and character of the individual. Saying that though, there are obviously some who can use words to transcend the mundane, in the form of literary works, poetry and song.

Define good and Evil

Good is acting in harmony with nature, acting in everybodys self interest, directly and indirectly, and forsaking ones own selfish desires.
Evil is transgressing nature, it is acting purely in ones own selfish self interest.

How do YOU know god is the truth?

Like I know anything else, through faith, curiosity, study, association with devotees, hearing devotees, chanting the names of God, experience, observation, fulfilled prophecy, deduction, further study, humility, and so on.

Love

Jan Arden.

P.S. Check your pm’s.

If one is essentially good, then the concept of hate has no meaning, because one understands that everything material is only temporary, and though someone may act maliciously toward them, they know it is because they are in the mode of passion or ignorance, and not in full control of themselves. They understand that there actions are fully under the control of the temporal material nature.

But if some one knoes the truth can they still hate? Ultimatly do humans have the choice to pursue hate or love?

Your distintion of passion and emotion is interesting I will reflect upon it. It may be usefull


If one is essentially good, then the concept of hate has no meaning, because one understands that everything material is only temporary, and though someone may act maliciously toward them, they know it is because they are in the mode of passion or ignorance, and not in full control of themselves. They understand that there actions are fully under the control of the temporal material nature.

That didn't awnser my question? You said evil is to live out side harmony but can one choose the way of hate/passion

Normally I do, but the posters here are generally so hung up on logic, that while here, I give dictionary meanings of words so they can understand.

I would agree, I really don't want to debate with a book that has been demmemed infalible. Since i belive only the truth is infalible, what ever it may be(cause i have know clue)

...transcend the mundane, in the form of literary works, poetry and song

I kind lean towards the idea that they put alot more then words into there works for that.

Like I know anything else, through faith, curiosity, study, association with devotees, hearing devotees, chanting the names of God, experience, observation, fulfilled prophecy, deduction, further study, humility, and so on.

I am not trying to discredit any of what you do our believe, but I find it very curious for myself. My knowledge of the universe is so extremly limited whether it be spiritual or intellectual. I really don't believe the ultimate truth is so easily attainable in such limited forms. For me I have allways found that "Know nothing has helped me grow"

See yeah in 2 weeks have fun!!!!

full awareness would give you the ability to see the neutrality of all things,to cast off your animal instincts,as animals when we look at a lush forest we call it beautiful,and when looking at a smoldering pile of rubble call it death and destruction,someone fully aware however is able to see the beauty and complex wonder that is all things,not only living things
as animals we are programmed to favor fertility,the only exceptions are those people who have chemical imbalances or psychological mindsets created from deprivation/mistreatement and so on,yet one who becomes fully aware becomes in control of his/her own thought pattern,the biological program no longer has control,this of course only being theory
but whos to say there is not many more forces at work,who is to say we have control or free will at all,if our brain is needed for thought,and its inner workings are of this world,as they can be manipulated by physical things,then why,or how,could they be random at all

First you say that someone who is aware sees that all things are neutral. Then you say that someone who is aware sees the beauty of things.

Beauty is not a neutral concept.

When you become enlightened you realize that everything matters because nothing matters. All things are everything yet nothing. You are because you are not because you are. God or whichever name you choose to call IT, is everything. There is no good or bad, there is only good so that you can have bad. Only light so you can have dark.

i suppose neutrality was the wrong word then

Awake: if there is no logic in being aware, is it at all possible to discuss awareness?

...: then what is the right word?

Anything is truly possible because nothing really matters yet everything matters to bring you to enlightenment. You are and can do anything that you choose to do. I know this all sounds esoteric but in the realities of reality, you realize that the relationship between everything is just there to bring you to an awakening that the relationship is illusion. Once you have that "realization", it is like an epiphany: "Oh! Now I get it!!"

So technically there is no "right" word or "wrong" word, because that is a relationship, a concept that we in our illusion put on a word. The choice would therefore be one of which word would serve us in this situation. Logic-sound reasoning, according to Webster's. When there is that awareness, enlightenment or understanding, the reasoning is sound because it is ultimate truth. Truth-the real state of things: Fact, again according to Webster's, is undeniable.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Empty Dragon
[i]But if some one knoes the truth can they still hate?[i]

You need to understand what hate is, then you would be able to answer this question effectively.

[i]questions[i]

Have you ever hated.
Did you bring on the hate out of choice.

If someone knows the truth, then what is the point of hating.
Maybe we should talk more about "the truth" and hopefully come to some conclusion. :)

[i]Ultimatly do humans have the choice to pursue hate or love?[i]

Yes, we also have the choice to pursue life or death.

[i]can one choose the way of hate/passion[i]

Essentially, yes.

[i]For me I have allways found that "Know nothing has helped me grow"[i]

That doesn't make any sense. Please elaborate.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Also in response to Empty Dragon: Of course most of us have felt hate or various levels of it, unless we choose not to. There are times when someone says something or does something that we may "judge" as hateful on one day, then on another day we "judge" it as less hateful or not even hateful at all. What is the difference one day to the other? I'll tell you, the difference is our choice of how we "judge" it. Once we realize that it is our choice of perspective of how someone is treating us, then we will conciously choose to not let it affect us in a negative way, unless we don't. It is our "free-will". We can choose all of the things we desire or don't desire in life.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Awake
Once we realize that it is our choice of perspective of how someone is treating us, then we will conciously choose to not let it affect us in a negative way, unless we don't. It is our "free-will". We can choose all of the things we desire or don't desire in life.

I agree.

Love

Jan Ardena.

[i]For me I have allways found that "Know nothing has helped me grow"[i]

That doesn't make any sense. Please elaborate.-Jan

I do not know all and since i am not omnipotent, my views are envitably flawed and if they trully are correct I would have now way to be certain. So I continue to search with the assumtion of zero knowledge. Ican think clearer when Idon't have a bunch of crap runing thru my head. I cannot say I know anything untill I know the truth.

About the hole hate think its just a theoritical descusion, and i phrased the question wrong.

Could one draw Qi(chi) from hatred (transform the negative emotion into Qi) and If you where to transform it would you still experience the emotionl thoughts that come with it?

Because if you were fully awake and saw everything as it is as opposed as what it appears to be would you not suffer more.

No. Awarenes brings peace to your heart. It's like if you were living at night without seeing anything, and when the sun comes and shine you can see that you live in a beautiful world... :)

How to Cultivate Awareness

There is no Dharma without cultivating awareness. If there is no
awareness when the mind comes in contact with the phenomena,
there will be no turning (to the Void); if there is no turning (to the
Void), there will be no (realization of the) Void (of all phenomena);
if there is no (realization of the) Void, there will be no concentration;
and if there is no concentration, there will be no wisdom. How habits
may be eliminated by awareness may be seen in the following
stages of its progressive development:

1. When awareness comes after thought, it is necessary to
do one's utmost to arouse awareness as soon as possible;

2. Even though it comes after the arising of the thought,
however, awareness must not be evoked by force;

3. Though there may be awareness as soon as thought arises,
it is possible that in sequence of time, either one may be a little
ahead of the other;

4. Awareness begins simultaneously with the thought;

5. Awareness is before the arising of the thought, but sometimes
there may be no awareness at all;

6. Awareness is always before thought-arising and is concerned
with nothing but itself (awareness) (the above deals with the
practice of awareness);

7. One should keep oneself in awareness but without being
conscious of it. On perceiving the reality of phenomena, one is
fundamentally free;

8. Awareness at this stage of development is always still and
radiant. To check up the development of our awareness, let us
ask ourselves "To which of these stages are we progressing
now?"

Source:
Buddhism in a Nutshell (http://www.buddhistdoor.com/passissue/9702/sources/teach26.htm)

See also:
Buddhist Door (http://www.buddhistdoor.com)

What is Awareness? I don't get it. If i see a very beautiful woman and ignore all the others, am i aware? Do i have to notice everything to be aware? That's not my nature people. What's the utility of being aware? It seems to me a perfect waste of mental energy?

Somebody once said that looking at everything and at nothing is the same thing.

axonio98,

A man is walking in the dark. He doesn't see a hole in the ground, he falls and get killed. If he was aware of the hole, he would be alive.

Another example. A child is in the darkness. He doesn't know what is there. He fears it. He runs away.

Another... A dark place. You are hungry. There is a table full of food in front of you and you can't see. You die of starvation.

Now, how important do you think it is to be aware?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
axonio98,
A man is walking in the dark. He doesn't see a hole in the ground, he falls and get killed. If he was aware of the hole, he would be alive.
Another example. A child is in the darkness. He doesn't know what is there. He fears it. He runs away.
Another... A dark place. You are hungry. There is a table full of food in front of you and you can't see. You die of starvation.
Now, how important do you think it is to be aware?


I´m not talking about one hole in the dark. I'm talking about all holes in the dark (especially the good ones :D ); a buda kind of awareness or enligthment. I think this is what's being argued here.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
axonio98,

A man is walking in the dark. He doesn't see a hole in the ground, he falls and get killed. If he was aware of the hole, he would be alive.

Another example. A child is in the darkness. He doesn't know what is there. He fears it. He runs away.

Another... A dark place. You are hungry. There is a table full of food in front of you and you can't see. You die of starvation.

Now, how important do you think it is to be aware?

Sorry. Read the previous post

axonio98,

I? not talking about one hole in the dark. I'm talking about all holes in the dark (especially the good ones ); a buda kind of awareness or enligthment. I think this is what's being argued here.

It's still the same awareness I'm talking about. Awareness gives you peace of spirit. It gives you wisdom. It makes you happy. It makes life meaningfull.

In the other thread it's the same thing. Again the 1 Corinthians 13:12 shows that really well. God is aware of us but we are not aware of Him. With the awareness, what you call "enlightment", you know that He exist and that He is everywhere. If all that you know is darkness, you won't comprehend what is light (as it's written in John 1:5 : "And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.") As you become used with it, you start to comprehend it.

Imagine a blind man that was born blind. He doesn't know how is the sun, how is the sky and the trees. One day, he sudenly sees. At first he gets confused. He might even go crazy. But as he gets used with it, he starts to comprehend it. The same with the awareness.

In Zen-Buddhism, there is a story about a blind man that asks how is the sun. One man says that the sun is rund like a cymbal and he gives the cymbal to the blind man so that he can feel its shape. However, the blind man hits the cymbal and listen to it and finish by thinking that the sun sounds like a cymbal.

Now, here is the interpretation (using you as the blind man and me as the other). I have the awarenes and you don't. You try to comprehend it by your own means, using your head (as the blind man uses his ears). In the end, you still cannot comprehend it (because you judged it by your own means).

I hope you understand those simple story-illustrations...

Sorry TruthSeeker. I don't understand religious enlightment . You see me as the blind man, and for some reason you think i need your light. But i'm happy anyway.

axonio98,

The light is the understanding...

Well truthSeeker, i hope you understand me.

I've read over the thread....it's interesting. Until one comes to the point where seeking awareness is a deep seated longing, he will continue to look at the darkness as a comfortable, secure place. If as in the blind man's case, that is all you know, you are as stated fearful of the light. When you realize (becoming aware of) the 'truth' of the light you long wholly for it. This longing is what leads people on their individual paths to the light.

If you were to have even the smallest glimpse of the light, it would completely change your whole aspect of the reality and illusion of life.

Originally posted by Awake:If you were to have even the smallest glimpse of the light, it would completely change your whole aspect of the reality and illusion of life.

Yes, but then what composes the light? Longing or truth is not a cosmic revelation, but a personal one.

I beleive that instead of thinking in terms of 'I want to become aware of the true nature of things' I think in terms of 'I want to feel what you feel about things, even if I don't quite know what to make of my own things.' The thought of a God can be easily grasped and situated within our socio-psychological way of viewing truth, in terms of right or wrong, so it fits. The idea of light can be easily accomodated becuse it has the aspect of vagueness built in. No one can describe 'the light': It must be felt.

Is it then truly cosmic? I believe that the only way to recognize our interna delusion is to be entirely seperate of any emotion- because while the cosmos may or may not be emotional, we don't accomplish anything in terms of changing our own opinions by imposing them on the totality of existence.

So, we must either analyze everything or live by our emotions. We must have priorities, and we can have direct meaning and purpose in our lives without those priorities being groundshaking. Those who see 'the light' do not see anything seperate from our own central delusion- they see only one emotion with the aspect of the undefined defined within it. I cannot hope to possibly debunk this idea, because it's basis is in emotion, of giving oneself up to the comfortable numbness of awareness.

In the end, we get no comfort from comprehending our cosmos, but rather each other.

The light is ourselves.

We cannot possibly know anything outside of our own personal relations with others, and ourselves.

The idea of a 'light' is vauge and then purely emotional. Nothing relevant to mankind can be unemotional, nothing can be purely outside of the human condition. If anything could, it would simply not be worth it.

I was a little lost in your wordage, but I think I agree with you. I was using the light and the blind man references that were already being used. In the case of awareness, it is a personal and emotional response, atleast until it's not anymore. What it is, is the ultimate knowledge of how all things are related. By coming to know ourselves as our true nature (enlightened, aware, energy...etc) we are then able to know how others feel.

I ask you, what is the difference between a cosmic revelation and a personal revelation? I say it is the same. We are all one with the cosmos so a personal revelation is a cosmic revelation.

The longing is just what motivates one on a path of self discovery that will eventually lead to awareness.

Yes. 'Spose I was just saying that I don't think anything can be truly extrapersonal.