13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad. (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2835033&postcount=1)


Actually, it was Central Television for the ITV that gave the best info to the American public about who killed Kennedy. It only ran once on American TV, then the relatives of the LBJ estate legally maneuvered to not have it shown again on TV. For a while, the first six parts were played every year on the History channel.

You can send away and get the first six episodes on disc from Netflix. Or watch all nine on-line. The last three I could only find on youtube. You could probably buy them somewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Killed_Kennedy

The ninth documentary in the series, titled "The Guilty Men," directly implicates former U. S. President Lyndon B. Johnson and created an outcry among Johnson's surviving associates, including Johnson's widow, Lady Bird Johnson, journalist Bill Moyers, ex-President Jimmy Carter, Jack Valenti (longtime president of the Motion Picture Association of America), and the last-living (at the time of the outcry) Warren Commission commissioner and ex-President Gerald R. Ford. These Johnson supporters lodged complaints of libel with the History Channel. They subsequently threatened legal action against Arts & Entertainment Company, owner of the History Channel.

The History Channel responded by assembling a panel of three historians, Robert Dallek, Stanley Kutler, and Thomas Sugrue. On a program aired April 7, 2004 called "The Guilty Man: A Historical Review," the panel agreed that the documentary was not credible and should not have aired. The History Channel issued a statement saying, in part, "The History Channel recognizes that 'The Guilty Men' failed to offer viewers context and perspective, and fell short of the high standards that the network sets for itself. The History Channel apologizes to its viewers and to Mrs. Johnson and her family for airing the show." Conspiracy author Barr McClellan, interviewed in the documentary, complained that although the historians examined the evidence, they did not interview him or Turner.[4]

All three new documentaries by Turner ("The Guilty Men," "The Smoking Gun" and "The Love Affair") were then permanently withdrawn by the History Channel, though they were originally slated to be viewed at least annually on the History Channel until the 50th anniversary of the Kennedy assassination (November, 2013).[citation needed]

In another episode that has warranted discussion, French prisoner Christian David was interviewed by author Anthony Summers. In the interview, David says he was approached to become one of three French criminals hired to carry out the assassination of Kennedy, but that he refused. David acknowledges that deceased French mobster Lucien Sarti was one of the men who carried out the assassination.

E. Howard Hunt placed LBJ at the top of a conspiracy list connected to Cord Meyer, Bill Harvey, David Morales and "French Gunman Grassy Knoll" in his death bed confession to his son. [5][6]

Malcolm Liggett, a retired economics professor, sued A&E regarding the episode "The Smoking Guns," which claimed Liggett was involved in a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Liggett and A&E reached a settlement, which required that a letter by Liggett be read on the show History Center.[7]

The Men Who Killed Kennedy, "The Guilty Men" Complete Episode 9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuFDz-Z1jbY)

The History Channel responded by assembling a panel of three historians, Robert Dallek, Stanley Kutler, and Thomas Sugrue. On a program aired April 7, 2004 called "The Guilty Man: A Historical Review," the panel agreed that the documentary was not credible and should not have aired.

The History Channel responded by assembling a panel of three historians, Robert Dallek, Stanley Kutler, and Thomas Sugrue. On a program aired April 7, 2004 called "The Guilty Man: A Historical Review," the panel agreed that the documentary was not credible and should not have aired.

If you want a group of men you don't know do your thinking for you, feel free. . .

I've watched them. I've seen them with my own eyes. Plus, I've done lots of research on my own into the official version, and other accounts. I'll decide what's credible for myself.

BTW, do you know who headed up and chaired the Warren commission? Seems he got a pretty swell job for following orders, didn't he?

The History Channel responded by assembling a panel of three historians, Robert Dallek, Stanley Kutler, and Thomas Sugrue. On a program aired April 7, 2004 called "The Guilty Man: A Historical Review," the panel agreed that the documentary was not credible and should not have aired.

LOL but other stuff on history channel is like 100% credible and stuff.

If you want a group of men you don't know do your thinking for you, feel free. . .

Nope.


I've watched them. I've seen them with my own eyes. Plus, I've done lots of research on my own into the official version, and other accounts. I'll decide what's credible for myself.

Yeah, your posts are so inciteful, I'm sure you know more than the rest of the world about a lot of things.


BTW, do you know who headed up and chaired the Warren commission? Seems he got a pretty swell job for following orders, didn't he?

Yeah, I do know who chaired the Warren Commission (In a similar vein, do you know who is buried in Grant's tomb?)

No, you twit, he didn't get a swell job for following orders.

In fact he had a swell job when he was asked to head up the commission.

In fact he had a job so swell that he was appointed to it for life so he wasn't beholden to anyone.

Indeed, he had already been Attny General of California and Governor of California for 3 consecutive terms (only man to ever have done this).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Warren

But if this is your idea of "doing a lot of research", well ROTFLMAO.

Arthur

LOL but other stuff on history channel is like 100% credible and stuff.
I rank them right up there with the Science Channel. :rolleyes:

Yeah, your posts are so inciteful, I'm sure you know more than the rest of the world about a lot of things.

Ah good, I see you're beginning to see the depth and breadth of my knowledge and wisdom. :) Keep reading, clarity and appreciation are not far behind if you are at all intelligent. Acceptance of truth goes thru several stages, you're just in the first stage. Hang in there.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)

I rank them right up there with the Science Channel. :rolleyes:

How come a channel called the Science Channel never has any science on it?

Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.
~Vladimir Lenin

Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever.
~Vladimir Lenin

Television keeps the masses occupied. What if everyone decided they wanted to make something of their lives? Television keeps the competition down and keeps more criminals off the street. What if everyone decided to go to law school or medical school? It would sure make it tough on the rest of us. ~Jim Urbanovich

Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. ~Edward R. Murrow

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Yes we see that quote from many people who spout conspiracy nonsense, but here's the thing just because your conspiracy nonsense gets and deserves ridicule doesn't make it Truth.

Arthur

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)

Well then that statement must not be true. Really takes a linear brain to make a statement like that, poor Schopenhauer.

How come a channel called the Science Channel never has any science on it?

Wrestling is science. There's gravity, and opposite reactions. And spitting people.

Well then that statement must not be true. Really takes a linear brain to make a statement like that, poor Schopenhauer.

I suppose you have a deeper truth?

I suppose you have a deeper truth?

I know that is not true.

Really? So you accept truth as self evident before you try to negate it through either you mind or your words?

Interesting logical thought process...

Really? So you accept truth as self evident before you try to negate it through either you mind or your words?

Interesting logical thought process...

Now you are being deceptive. That was only one part of it.

Is the truth always ridiculed and (or) violently opposed?

Guess the quote is not true.

Maybe not outright in spoken language, but to anaylze the truth our mind always looks for the faults. I'm not so much interested in the ridicule or voilent part as the "opposed" part. If you don't oppose something before you accept it as truth there should be a major lack of confidence in said truth.

Deception is part of truth. It may not always hold a whole answer but it fits many lives and experiences. Something to not forget.

Maybe not outright in spoken language, but to anaylze the truth our mind always looks for the faults. I'm not so much interested in the ridicule or voilent part as the "opposed" part. If you don't oppose something before you accept it as truth there should be a major lack of confidence in said truth.

Deception is part of truth. It may not always hold a whole answer but it fits many lives and experiences. Something to not forget.

So the quote is NOT true even by your own admission.

No ridicule, no violent opposition as requirement.

Not only that but before accepting something does not equate to opposition.

So the quote is NOT true even by your own admission.
How so?


No ridicule, no violent opposition as requirement.
In literature we have a specialized device called a hyperbole. Is opposition a requirement to truth? No, but it prevents ignorance and I am promoting that factor mainly.



Not only that but before accepting something does not equate to opposition.

Correct. Ignorance before something is accepted is not opposition, but neither is blind acceptance. The importance of opposition is that it decreases the chances of blind acceptance.

Ridicule is just good fun human nature.

So you are saying this quote is an exaggeration? Aka not true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaggeration


Correct. Ignorance before something is accepted is not opposition, but neither is blind acceptance. The importance of opposition is that it decreases the chances of blind acceptance.

Ridicule is just good fun human nature.

Who said anything about blind acceptance?

Ridicule: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ridicule

Does all truth pass through those stages?

I say absolutely not.

So you are saying this quote is an exaggeration?
It's situational. The subjective words in the quote "can" be exagerated.


Who said anything about blind acceptance?
Semantically? Schopenhauer. Physically? Me.



Does all truth pass through those stages?

I say absolutely not.
And your evidence is?

Does all bacon get cooked on a skillet? No, but it sure as hell tastes better than the microwave.

Same with truth. The longer something holds to opposition the tastier the truth is in reality.

A strong well considered truth will pass through those stages in the mind of an good observer. This happens before either acceptance or rejection of the "truth".

Many eyewitnesses reported hearing a shot inside or near the Presidential limousine. The driver, Bill Greer was seated two rows in front of and slightly to Jfk's left.

1.Bobby Hargis (Police motorcycle outrider, left rear of limousine):
Mr. Stern: Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the shots?
Hargis: “Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me,” 6WCH294.

2. Austin Miller (railroad worker, on triple overpass):
Mr. Belin: “Where did the shots sound like they came from?”
Miller: “Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say right there in the car,” 6WCH225.

3. Charles Brehm (carpet salesman, south curb of Elm St.): “Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in front or beside the President. He explained the President did not slump forward as if he would have after being shot from the rear,” “President Dead, Connally Shot,” The Dallas Times Herald, 22 November 1963, p.2

4. Officer E. L. Boone (policeman, corner of Main and Houston Streets):" I heard three shots coming from the vicinity of where the President's car was,” 19WCH508.

5. Jack Franzen: (south curb of Elm): “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and ...small fragments flying inside the vehicle and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile,” 22WCH840.

6. Mrs. Jack Franzen (south curb of Elm): “Shortly after the President’s automobile passed by…she heard a noise which sounded as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile…at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile,” 24WCH525.

7. James Altgens: (photographer, south curb of Elm):“The last shot sounded like it came from the left side of the car, if it was close range because, if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy," 7WCH518.

8. Hugh Betzner, Jr. (south curb of Elm, nr junction with Houston): “I cannot remember exactly where I was when I saw the following: I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air,” I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car 19WCH467



"Handgun used"

"1. Dr. Charles R. Baxter, in Bill Sloan. JFK: Breaking the Silence (Dallas, Texas: Taylor Publishing Co., 1993), p.92: "Although Dr. Baxter…declined to be interviewed for this book, Baxter did issue a brief comment in October 1992 through the school's public information office in which he described the throat wound as being "very small" and looking as though "it might have come from a handgun."

2. Dr. Charles Wilbur: “Interpretation of the fatal head wound by several attending surgeons suggested a high velocity handgun bullet fired at close range,”

3. Iona Antonov, “On the Trail of the President’s Killers: part 2,” New Times, 1977, pp.26-30: New York Daily News quoted friends of John Rosselli to the effect that Oswald a decoy “while others ambushed” Kennedy from closer range.

4. Dr. Robert McClelland: "The cause of death was due to a massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the left temple," (CE 392). <Admission>

5. Parkland Dr. McClelland's testimony as reproduced in Hearings volume 6, p.38: "Dr. McClelland judged that the wound in the President's skull could be expected '…from a very high velocity missile…with a heavy calibre bullet, such as a .45 pistol fired at close range…' This would particularly apply to the skull '…where there was a sudden change in density from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. As it left the body, it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up a large segment of tissue as it exited.'"

6. A.J. Millican: “It sounded like a .45 automatic, or a high-powered rifle.” <19WCH486>

7. S.M. Holland: “It would be like you’re firing a .38 pistol right beside a shotgun, or a .45 right beside a shotgun.”

8. “Garrison says assassin killed Kennedy from sewer manhole,” New York Times, 11 December 1967, p.28: Report of Garrison claim on WFAA-TV in Dallas – “The man who killed President Kennedy fired a .45 caliber pistol” and that the bullet entered the “right temple.” Gunman located within manhole on north side of Elm Street. Garrison had just taken possession of a set of photos showing cartridge case being retrieved by unidentified man, under noses of two Dallas police officers, on south curb of Elm.

9. Photo referred to by Garrison contained within Garrison Tapes documentary, timed at 01:22:04:15.

10. Joachim Joesten. The Dark Side of Lyndon Baines Johnson (London: Peter Dawnay, 1968), pp.248-249: Garrison set to release previously unknown set of photos “which saw a federal agent picking up a large caliber bullet from the lawn on the south side of Elm St, at the spot where Kennedy received his mortal wound. The bullet, which was previously identified as .45, was found amidst splotches of dark grey matter which came from Kennedy’s head…” p.249: “clock above TSBD, clearly visible in one of the pictures, reads 12:40.”

11. Statement of Hugh William Betzner, Jr., Warren Commission Hearings (WCH), Vol. 19, p. 467, taken 11-22-63:

I was standing on Houston Street near the intersection of Elm Street. I took a picture of President Kennedy's car as it passed along Houston Street. I have an old camera. I looked down real quick and rolled the film to take the next picture. I then ran down to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets, this being the southwest corner. I took another picture just as President Kennedy's car rounded the corner. He was just about all the way around the corner. I was standing back from the corner and had to take the pictures through some of the crowd. I ran on down Elm a little more and President Kennedy's car was starting to go down the hill to the triple underpass. I was running trying to keep the President's car in my view and was winding my film as I ran. I took another picture as the President's car was going down the hill on Elm Street. I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise. I thought that this noise was either a firecracker or a car had backfired. I looked up and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped. Then I saw a a flash of pink like someone standing up and then sitting back down in the car. Then I ran around so I could look over the back of a monument and I either saw the following then or when I was standing back down on the corner of Elm Street. I cannot remember exactly where I was when I saw the following: I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air. I also saw a man in either the President's car or the car behind his and someone down in one of those cars pulled out what looked like a rifle. I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car. Then the President's car sped on under the underpass. Police and a lot of spectators started running up the hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a fence of wood. I assumed that that was where the shot was fired from at that time. I kept watching the crowd. Then I came around the monument over to Main Street. I walked down toward where the President's car had stopped. I saw a Police Officer and some men in plain clothes. I don't know who they were. These Police Officers and the men in plain clothes were digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a bullet. I walked back around the monument over to Elm Street where they were digging in the dirt. I went on across the street and up the embankment to where the fence is located. By this time almost all of the people had left. There were quite a few people down on the street and crowded around a motorcycle. I was looking around the fence as the rumor had spread that that was where the shot had come from. I started figuring where I was when I had taken the third picture and it seemed to me that the fence row would have been in the picture. I saw a group of men who looked like they might be officers and one of them turned out to be Deputy Sheriff Boone. I told him about the picture I had taken. Deputy Sheriff Boone contacted superiors and was told to bring me over to the Sheriff's Office. Deputy Sheriff Boone took my camera and asked me to wait. I waited in the Sheriff's Office and some time later, an hour or two, he brought my camera back and told me that as soon as they got through with the film and they were dry that they would give me the film. A little later he came in and gave me the negatives and told me that they were interested in a couple of pictures and implied that the negatives was all I was going to get back. To the best of my knowledge, this is all I know about this incident.

A damn good case if we must throw out the films, I would say:

There are few things more ironic than jfk's real assassin describing his own shot and ultimately debunking Oswald and the grassy snow job. At the end of Greer's testimony here, he takes his finger over his right forehead and drags it along his right temple to his right rear. Note how Greer doesn't turn around and speed off until he's sure his shot connected.

Mr. Specter.
Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away?
Mr. Greer.
No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye.

Mr. Specter.
Indicating the right eye. (Greer pointed over his right eye)
Mr. Greer.
I may be wrong.
Mr. Specter.
You don't know which eye?
Mr. Greer.
I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet had taken, the lead.
Mr. Specter.
Would you describe in very general terms what injury you observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy?

Mr. Greer.
I would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part of the head right here.
Mr. Specter.
Upper right?
Mr. Greer.
Upper right side.
Mr. Specter.
Upper right side, going toward the rear. And what was the condition of the skull at that point?

Mr. Greer.
The skull was completely--this part was completely gone.

Upper right side, going toward the rear fired by Greer.

Royce Skelton's Warren Commission Testimony (back to the list of witnesses)

(Skelton was standing on the triple overpass)

Mr. BALL - Did you see the President's car turn on Elm Street?
Mr. SKELTON - Yes, sir; I saw the car carrying the Presidential flag turn.
Mr. BALL - And did you hear something soon after that?
Mr. SKELTON - Just about the same time the car straightened up - got around the corner - I heard two shots, but I didn't know at the time they were shots.
Mr. BALL - Where did they seem to come from?
Mr. SKELTON - Well, I couldn't tell then, they were still to far from where I was.
Mr. BALL - Did the shots sound like they came from where you were standing?
Mr. SKELTON - No, sir; definitely not. It sounded like they were right there - more or less like motorcycle backfire, but I thought that they were these dumb balls that they throw at the cement because I could see the smoke coming up off the cement.
Mr. BALL - You saw smoke come off the cement?
Mr. SKELTON - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what direction?
Mr. SKELTON - Towards the President's car.
Mr. BALL - From the President's car.
Mr. SKELTON - right around the motorcycles and all that - I couldn't distinguish because it was too far away.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. SKELTON - I stood there from about 12:15 until the time the President was shot.
Mr. BALL - How many shots did you hear?
Mr. SKELTON - I think I heard four - I mean - I couldn't be sure.
Mr. BALL - You think you heard four?
Mr. SKELTON - Yes.

Bill Greer was a ss agent for almost 18 years when he assassinated JFK. He died in 1985.

Greer was born on a farm in Stewartstown, County Tyrone, Ireland, and emigrated to the United States in 1929.[1] After working for over a decade as a chauffeur and servant to several wealthy families in the Boston and New York areas, including the Lodge family and several years with Franklin Q. Brown of Dobbs Ferry, NY (the 1940 census has him as a live-in servant of Franklin Brown of Dobbs Ferry and in Greer's Warren Commission testimony he said that he worked for a "private family" in Dobbs Ferry for "13 years" before enlisting into the Navy in 1942), Greer enlisted in the U.S. Navy in World War II, was assigned to the presidential yacht in May, 1944, was discharged on September 18, 1945 and then joined the United States Secret Service on October 1, 1945.

Greer took a role close to Kennedy, and can be seen in several pictures with the Kennedy family. He chauffeured the president on many occasions, including the day of the assassination. Like all agents involved, he has been the target of much speculation and criticism for his actions on that day. He testified before the Warren Commission regarding the incident.

Greer retired on disability from the Secret Service in 1966 due to a stomach ulcer that grew worse following the Kennedy assassination.[2][3] In 1973 he relocated to Waynesville, North Carolina, where he eventually died of cancer. Greer's son Richard told author Vince Palamara in 1991 that his father "had absolutely no survivor's guilt."[

I would say this all points to the unreliability of eye witness accounts.:shrug:

I would say this all points to the unreliability of eye witness accounts.:shrug:

Seconded.

And ear witness accounts too. :)

Its amazing what can be imagined from blurry video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKz2noAWVwE