So vote. And explain.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

No we shouldn’t ban him.

While nearly all of his posts are childishly abusive and directed at a large portion of our membership, and while he is clearly a bigot in the true sense of the word, he does reflect the real world where such people like this do exist. Instead of banning him we should see his posts as a challenge for ourselves in attempting to learn how to deal with such people and their confused thinking.

I’d suggest the Ignore list mechanism as a way to avoid his posts, but really that doesn’t work very well. Ignored posts are still listed as posts that have been ignored but with an annoying button that allows one to view the post. I think there are very few of us who can resist pushing the button to see what new gibberish he has posted.

Free speech must rule since who here can decide and set standards at a point where something is acceptable or not acceptable. It is too subjective. Especially since he carefully avoids profanities.

There have been others that have been far worse and who have generated genuine hurtful comments. And really, I hope no one takes his comments seriously since I strongly suspect we can all see his inability to reason. His posts are simply very irritating and that is not sufficient justification to ban anyone.

Even though it was my *joking* idea, I don't think he should be banned, no matter what kind of garbage he spits out.

I guess I'm a believer in the idea that as long as his actions don't infringe on my rights, he should be able to do whatever he wants. No one's rights are being violated by his posts, so it wouldn't be justified in denying him the right to free speech.

Excluding online-stalkers/sexual predators (on sciforums? :D), I don't think anyone should be banned because of something they said. That would truly be a step backwards from what this board is about.

Cheers.
-Kyle

No? Then stop complaining all of you who rant and yell at him with all caps.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Just cuz we complain about him posting in caps doesn't mean we want him banned, silly.

It merely means we want him to stop posting in caps :D.

Cheers
-Kyle

I mean that some of us yell at him WITH CAPS. As in, some of us utilize all caps when ranting at him.

Lay off the crack!

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

He's fun to torment. Then he gets boring. When he gets boring, put him on your ignore list.

"Knowledge is power"...

Now you all know how does it feel like to be called "Retarded", "Delusional"...Does it feel right? Of course not, many of you complain for my name calling...
So let that be a lesson to all of you, and think twice before calling your christian brother "Delusional" and causing them to lose their faith because of your accusation, maybe you should look in the mirror and see the real "delusional" guy. Indeed there are many christians that lives a blind faith, because they never gave thought about it, but not all of them, Im not..But theres one thing for sure, when your an atheists, indeed you have not given your faith a second thought at all....
As I have pointed out Many errors that you guys use as an argument..

"No knowledge can take God out of the world, but the more knowledge is revealed, the more God is revealed"...

He's a detriment to the religion forum. Therefore, should be dealt with swiftly and cleanly. And as for this being a subjective comment - the quality of posts on this sub-forum have been going downhill for quite some time. I'm not sure many old members will disagree with me. And whatsup fits in perfectly with the kind of member who has dragged it down.

Originally posted by whatsupyall
But theres one thing for sure, when your an atheists, indeed you have not given your faith a second thought at all....


That's pretty ignorant. I find that atheists have usually put more thought into their "faith" than most christians ever will. I for one was force fed with christianity through most of my early years. I didn't arrive at my present conclusion untill I started questioning what I was being tought and to actully think for myself.

whatsup,

Did you post in the wrong thread? Your post didn’t seem to make sense here.

"Knowledge is power"... ? Ok, but this appears no more than a random thought.

Now you all know how does it feel like to be called "Retarded", "Delusional"We do? Why?

..many of you complain for my name calling...This is true. Are you going to stop?

So let that be a lesson to all of you, and think twice before calling your christian brother "Delusional" and causing them to lose their faith because of your accusation, maybe you should look in the mirror and see the real "delusional" guy.Lesson to you all? Christian brother? Losing their faith?

I think you must be in the wrong thread.

theres one thing for sure, when your an atheists, indeed you have not given your faith a second thought at all....I don’t know about that. There may well be some atheists who don’t use logic or science and might well have faith in some things. The only thing we know for sure is that all atheists do not use faith regarding gods.

As I have pointed out Many errors that you guys use as an argument.. No, you only think you have pointed out errors.

"No knowledge can take God out of the world, but the more knowledge is revealed, the more God is revealed"...Evidence over the past few hundred years indicate the opposite. As we gain more real knowledge about the universe we see religion rapidly recede and give up ground. Secularism is now widespread in the world. A few centuries ago religion ruled the world.

The more we know the less we need the old god myths.

Tyler,

He's a detriment to the religion forum. Therefore, should be dealt with swiftly and cleanly. And as for this being a subjective comment - the quality of posts on this sub-forum have been going downhill for quite some time. I'm not sure many old members will disagree with me. And whatsup fits in perfectly with the kind of member who has dragged it down.I completely agree.

I've had some insightful conversations with whatsupyall, all you gotta do is be open. True his posts can be very ignorant and annoying, but how do you think he looks at your posts? Everyone has something to teach you, so stop pestering the poor guy. You don't agree with him, either do I, but i don't need to rub it in his face, instead I listen to what he has to say.

Is it not enough to know that you're doing better than someone else? Must that comfort be spent like yesterday's condom?

With due recognition and respect to those who speak against this kind of lynching, as your voices are appreciated, I must nonetheless say,

What the hell is the problem?

The simple solutions:

• There's a button that says "Report" at the end of every post. Use it. It forwards the post to the Moderator of the forum with any comments you should choose to include.

• You can always try PM'ing Porfiry, though I'm not inclined to ask a whole lot of him lately because I haven't been a good boy and sent him money yet.

• For each post, the poster's name is listed. This name is also a link. which launches their User Profile. From this page, you can add a poster to your Ignore list, which will delete their posts and merely advise you where those posts exist, instead of displaying them.

• You can always take it out on him in your posts. After all, just because people haven't gotten the hang of how to absolutely wound someone with words without crossing various lines in the battle to retain dignity does not mean they should simply ignore decency and unload. But come on, anyone who's caught my wrath knows I'm much meaner when I'm actually dignified about it.

In the meantime, the Bush administration is looking for a few good people to help them in their War Against Expression and Information Exchange. I see we have some candidates.

Be all that you can be.

Again, my thanks to the voices of reasonability.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Whatsup, you stupid sack of sheep. :)

I say he should be banned or at least given a warning (which is rare, I know). He had no intention on carry out a rational debate. He preaches and then calls anyone who disagrees with him stupid. Its like his ignorance gene is working on full strength. He has already declared that he is going to "take down" stupid Athiest theories when many of them were thought up by *shock horror* Chritians. He believes he always wins all arguements which is infact total BS. When someone proves him wrong, he ignores that post and replies to everything else with just insults.

Ban his ass

:)

Originally posted by Cris
whatsup,
No, you only think you have pointed out errors.

Cris. you stressed to me earlieer that "Knowing" someones "Choice" and act, means "Controlling" that "choice" and act...In other words, you are stressing that "Knowing" means "Controlling, establishing, and acting"...Those are thoughts and works, thoughts and works have different definition..

But you are stressing to me (like many other atheists), that God cannot be "ALL KNOWING" if humans have "free will"...Therefore, freewill and "Omniscience" cannot co-exists...
Again, if you really are so convinced that "Knowing" means "Controlling", then I am convinced that there must be a spirit of lies, a master of delusion, because how can something this stupid and illogic spread about? I dont think yur retarded, I just believe that you are another victim of a lie...
If you dont think thats "error", then I dont know what "error" is..
If you dont think that is a lie, then I dont know what is a lie...


Originally posted by Cris

Evidence over the past few hundred years indicate the opposite. As we gain more real knowledge about the universe we see religion rapidly recede and give up ground. Secularism is now widespread in the world. A few centuries ago religion ruled the world.


Yes, because this is prophesied, Satan is working hard to drag the whole world to hell with him, even the church...This is a BELIEF...
Am i deluded for believing it? I dont think I am, because you are fulfilling this prophesy..

Jesus said "When I return, will there be any faith left on earth?"

Think about it guys, you didnt become atheists because of reason and logic or science, there is NOTHING scientific about being an atheists, NOTHING...

SOME people become what they are because of examples, and stories, myths, or FACTS. Mythical stories such as "toothfairies", giant purple squid monkeys can turn someone into disbelief of that claim, then apply that to God without understanding the concept of God to begin with...This is faith, a faith that when something exists, it must be physically proven...

Some also becomes believer of the unexplained because of factual stories such as "Internet", "Man eating razor sharp metal and irons and not get hurt", "faith healing", etc.etc. And this is actually enough to convince some to become a believer of claim. Even though not understanding the circumstances, this is also called faith...That there are things that occur and exist which we cannot explain...

Not only do I see the delusion on many atheist kids (I call them kids for a reason), I also see that effect on christians as well...But one works for the good of society (again working doesnt mean perfection), the other works for the desires of the flesh, self service, BELIEVING that is the reason why we exist (And some even believe that order and complexity of nature is "chaos", and goes on further to say it is "chance"...Einstein believes in nature as order for a reason...).

In summary, people doesnt believe what they cannot comprehend and what they have not experienced, whether that claim is FACT or FALSE, whether that caim is "Placebo" or "flying pig", whether that claim is "God" or "toothfairy", whether the claim is fact or not, people cannot accept what they DONOT understand, what they have NOT experienced, and they have NOT been taught.....

AND WHEN SOMEONE BELIEVE WHAT THEY CANNOT COMPREHEND, WHAT THEY HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED, AND WHAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN EDUCATED ABOUT...THIS IS CALLED FAITH, WHETHER THAT FAITH IS USED ON GOD OR SCIENCE...

THERE IS ALSO LEVELS OF FAITH....For instance, faith in evlution is not in the same level as faith in toothfairy. For faith in evolution have presented some evidence, toothfairy have not given one evidence..

I for one is a believer of God, because I am educated concerning God, I HAVE EXPERIENCED HIM, and I understood God (not completely)...

Meanwhile, atheism have not provided me anything...So far, I have read it all, your posts are full of lies and errors. I must admit that there r things u guys said that are true, BUT NOTHING TO SUPPORT the faith in atheism....

As much as his idiocy and selective ignorance sicken me, he's still useful as a teaching aid when demonstrating the folly of religion.

Also, I'm a strong believer in free speech; I may violently disagree with what he says but I'll adamantly defend his right to say it.

Lets talk about "Evidence"...

Who can produce evidence? Can you produce evidence? If so, what kind of evidence is that? Is it reliable? What makes things reliable? What is the reason why that evidence is produced? For what cause? Is the cause beneficial? Does the cause make sense? For instance, can you blaim religion what is in human nature? Can you blaim the church because people lie, kill, steal, etc. People also kill, steal, rape, for nationality, race, country, and pleasure..Is your cause narrow minded and deluded?

What is SCIENTITIFIC? Observation and study? So anything observed and studied is scientific? What kind of science? Biological sscience? Technological science? Explain...WHO MUST OBSERVE AND STUDY THIS, in order to make it "scientific"? Those with education? What are those education? Scientists also disagrees with each other's claim. Who is right? Who is wrong?

Because I have observed prayers, studied the scriptures, and this fact is applied and can be demonstrated in everyone's life, is this then scientific, is God then scientific?
Is scientific means "measurable"? If something cannot be measured, is it a myth? What is a myth? Is myth what doesnt exist in your mind?

Lets talk about physical science...If you drive your car at 65 mph, and runs over a guy, will he die? or not? You say he will die right?...well there is someone here that survived..So again your claim is not a fact, its probability..
If someone's heart stops beating, is he dead? or is he only dead for the next 15 minutes, and then comes back to life if given cpr...So why cant he live another 15 minutes? If scientists claim that is not possible because of oxygen in brain collapse, etc.., is their claim evident? Has that been demonstrated? Few years ago it was believed that when the heart stops beating, your dead, but that is not the case anymore.. So how can we determine something is scientific?

Millions of People testified and claim to eexperience God, either by physical visions, interior conviction, answered prayers, beneficial words in the bible,etc. many reasons and evidence of claim.. When they claim, they acted upon it. They cry, rejoice, sing, and worship God, some are willing to give up thier life for him.. Some will give up riches to serve God and live a life of poverty...
But are millions upon millions lying? Are they GOOD actors? What did they get out of all these? Attention? Is praying in your own room getting alot of attention? Pleasure? Is it pleasure to donate your kidney because someone needs it (as my friend did)?

Do you think MILLIONS are brainwashed? and delusional?
Explain what makes someone brainwashed and delusional? Is believing in claims without evidence makes you delusional? And again what is evidence? Are you delusional? Can I say you are delusional for being alive and not understanding human life? Why can I not call you delusional?


Children, evidence itself requires faith...What good is it if I have given you evidence explaining evolution, and yet you have no faith on its evidence provided? What good is it if I have given you evidence that aspirin can heal your headache away, yet you dont have any faith on it...What good is it if I have given you evidence of intelligent causes, and miracles and healing ducumented concerning God, yet you have no faith in this evidence....what good is your evidence if noone puts faith in it....


IT COMES DOWN TO THESE....."THE PURPOSE IN LIFE"..... WHAT IS YOUR CAUSE?? WHAT IS THE REASON WHY YOU DO WHAT YOU DO? WHAT ARE YOU FIGHTING FOR? IS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR BELIEF BENEFICIAL TO ALL WITHOUT PREJUDISM...WHAT IS THE FRUIT OF YOUR BELIEF? WHAT ARE YOU LIVING FOR?

IN SUMMARY, LIFE IS ALL ABOUT FAITH.........LIFE IS ALL ABOUT TRUST...

What is supernatural?
Something that the law of science can explain? What are these "laws", are these "labeled" laws the only laws that exist in nature? Or is it the only laws we discovered...If you insist that what we labeled as "laws of nature" and physics are all there is to it, then how come you cant explain how life forms exist? Why cant you demonstrate creating life form? Because you dont know the laws of nature yet...
So how can you determine what is outside of the laws of nature when you dont even know the laws of nature to begin with...
So what then is natural and supernatural? Natural to you is what you can explain and understand, you can document it, date it, and publicize your test, do whatever you want...But since I donot understand it, is it then supernatural? If its supernatural, does it mean its a myth?
Whats natural to you, is supernatural to others..Back in the past, they call "gods", and speculate what they donot understand, they labeled it as "gods"...Today that practice is common, we call it "supernatural"....
Can you explain Placebo? No, is it then supernatural?
Is internet and computer technology natural? it is to those who understand it, but supernatural to those who knows nothing of it...
Natives in South America might say internet are "gods", meanwhile I call it "Supernatural" because I dont understand how it functions...

in a strict sense there are no laws of nature in biology. Physics has always been the science to look up too. To make biology more like physics some people have introduced the laws of nature.

However, nature doesn't capture very easy in laws like for instance physics does in the laws of newton. This is because of the nature of nature. It is a chaotic ordered system in a way. Not very suitable for laws.

supernatural is everything beyond natural. Science deals with the natural world. religion is about the supernatural world. Science is emperical and before you can make a statement about nature you have to have some emperical evidence in a theoretical framework. Religion is about belief and doesn't require anything but blind faith. In the end it is not so difficult to see the difference between the two, or ist it Mr W?

http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

Originally posted by whatsupyall

IN SUMMARY, LIFE IS ALL ABOUT FAITH.........LIFE IS ALL ABOUT TRUST...

personally I disagree since i will not accept any authority and therefore life is definately not about faith.

Everyone will give their own meaning to life, so it would be pointless to give you my meaning of life. From a biological perspective it is not so difficult though to realize the meaning or purpose of life...go out and multipy...and have some fun.

http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

whatsup,

Cris. you stressed to me earlieer that "Knowing" someones "Choice" and act, means "Controlling" that "choice" and act...In other words, you are stressing that "Knowing" means "Controlling, establishing, and acting"...Those are thoughts and works, thoughts and works have different definition..I don’t want to restart the omniscience vs free will argument again here, but I’ll point out that omniscience, especially knowing the future with perfection is without precedent in human experience. There are significant implications involved if the future is known before events occur. In human experience we intuitively understand and expect chronological cause and effect. Omniscience destroys that law. In short we cannot meaningfully comprehend a universe where omniscience is possible.

What you are trying to do is equate the term of ‘knowing’ as experienced in normal usage with the extraordinary claim of ‘knowing’ the future. When that is combined into a being that both designed and created everything and has an ultimate plan for everything then it should not be difficult to see that this being is the direct cause of everything. But that takes us back into the argument again.

My complaint about your comments is that you are trying to reduce a complex and probably humanly incomprehensible issue to something we know in normal life, and that is invalid, but then you have the gall to call me stupid for not seeing your simplistic view.

When you continue to shout the ‘knowing’ is ‘doing’ issue it indicates your failure to comprehend the complexity of the issue. I.e. it makes you look stupid.

Please, please, and as politely as I can say this, please try to understand that ‘knowing’ the future is vastly qualitatively different from regular “knowing” of past and present events.

whatsup,

As we gain more real knowledge about the universe we see religion rapidly recede and give up ground. Secularism is now widespread in the world. A few centuries ago religion ruled the world.

Yes, because this is prophesied, Satan is working hard to drag the whole world to hell with him, even the church...This is a BELIEF...

Am i deluded for believing it? I dont think I am, because you are fulfilling this prophesy..This is the power of religious propaganda. You have been deceived.

The progression is very simple – as knowledge increases, ignorance declines. As ignorance declines so does superstition and hence religion.

What you are saying is that ignorance is superior and preferable to knowledge.

Think about it guys, you didnt become atheists because of reason and logic or science, there is NOTHING scientific about being an atheists, NOTHING...This plus all your other statements about atheism indicates your entire ignorance of atheism.

I suggest you read “The Case Against God” by George H Smith, Probably the best book on the atheist philosophy. I have read the bible and several variations of it. The least you can do if you want to debate with atheists is properly understand their position.

Here is a link to amazon.com. I recommend you order this book immediately.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/087975124X/qid=1038583462/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-8839415-3581669?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Originally posted by whatsupyall
If you insist that what we labeled as "laws of nature" and physics are all there is to it, then how come you cant explain how life forms exist? Why cant you demonstrate creating life form? Because you dont know the laws of nature yet...


Whatmuscles, I thought yyou were more imaginative in your arguments than that...its one of the top ten arguments used by creationists to discredit evolution...

Who says we have no clue how life forms start? Have you not heard about the experiment done by simulating pre-earthlike conditions? With water, methane gases etc with electric sparks? The water and air was sterilized, and the gases/water reacted with the help of the electricity to form amino acids.....soon those amino acids began linking together...get the picture? Whatmuscles, are you on crack? LSD? E? Pot? Love? All of them?

Please, stop running your head against walls that have withstood the collective attacks of the RCC and have barely scratched. The academic society considers such arguments with polite contempt. You're just another ignorant, bible-banging, delusional, selfproclaimed catechist teacher. The thought of kids learning from you horrifies me. What is America coming to??

In case you are in lack of more religious insults to hurl at me, I might tell you that I am Asian. Happy racial slurring to you, sir. I can hear it coming..."You and your stupid mongolian influence, leading us honest whites astray...go back to asia!! asians are all children of satan!! I believe in god, not some stupid buddha buddha stuff!!"

Heard it a million times, it would be fun to hear it from a religious standpoint. Take a shot, whatmuscles! *hands him a carnival hat and a toy rifle*

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zero
Have you not heard about the experiment done by simulating pre-earthlike conditions?

Yes i heard about it. Did it create life? No.
As ingenious as the experiment was, the mixture of amino acids and other simple chemicals produced were not correct for producing life.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Somehow, I get the feeling if Whatsupall were actually banned all of you would be saying "Hmmm.... Now what?"

Jan,

Yes i heard about it. Did it create life? No.
As ingenious as the experiment was, the mixture of amino acids and other simple chemicals produced were not correct for producing life.Given the facts of these early experiments and our very recent discovery of DNA and the decoding of the human genome, the very new discoveries with stem cell research, the ability to clone, and a variety of related other biology projects, don’t you think it is inevitable that we will be able to create biological life from scratch in the future? Remember these are new sciences.

If you don’t think it is inevitable then what is it about biological life that you feel will prevent man from achieving this goal?

notme,

Somehow, I get the feeling if Whatsupall were actually banned all of you would be saying "Hmmm.... Now what?"LOL. You may be correct. He has at least proffered fairly basic questions enabling many atheists here to practice their expressions of their understanding of the issues.

Originally posted by Cris
Given the facts of these early experiments and our very recent discovery of DNA and the decoding of the human genome, the very new discoveries with stem cell research, the ability to clone, and a variety of related other biology projects, don’t you think it is inevitable that we will be able to create biological life from scratch in the future? Remember these are new sciences.

If you don’t think it is inevitable then what is it about biological life that you feel will prevent man from achieving this goal? [/B]

No, i don't think we will be able to create lifeforms from scratch at any time.

What do i think will prevent man from this goal?
Nothing will prevent man, because it cannot be done, it is out of the material domain. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

I do not think whatsupyall should be banned from the forums. While I do find that most of his posts are off-topic, rude, and consist primarily of regurgitated material he occasionally does highlight a point worthy of consideration. I find that he also is a perfect example of what is wrong with faith and religion. As such he does provide a valuable counterpoint. He also provides an opportunity to address and learn about such thick-headed reasoning. In brief, I find him a wonderful case study.

While personally, I prefer to carry a discussion above the primal level of whatsup's arena I find that he forces me to simplify my reasoning in hopes of teaching him to see his own errors.

I also think we need to seriously consider the ramifications of such censorship. You cannot rightly impose such a ruling upon someone without justification and provided you have such justification then it is only proper to apply this across-the-board. So what 'rules' are you going to apply? And how do each of us measure up to these rules? Censorship is a powerful tool and we need to be particularly careful in its use. Using it simply because you disagree and/or are offended by the speaker is dangerous in the extreme. Consider that in a primarily theistic world the opinions and voice of the atheist may be similarly offensive to theists.

Given this, I do think that whatsup's posts should be monitored a bit more closely, primarily as to whether he is anywhere near the topic or not. This is essentially a moderated forum and posts that are consistently and widely off topic should be either removed (which puts the burden on the moderators) or simply ignored by the rest of us. It is the latter suggestion which I think should be followed. If his post is completely off topic then simply tell him so and refuse to address him any further. Other than that, reply or not as you wish, report his abusiveness if you want, and ignore him if you simply do not wish to deal with him.

~Raithere

See the whole 'Ignore Whatsupyall' plan is working well :D

So, what has this thread taught us so far?

Lets summarise...

Whatsupyall posts items that are of no relevance to the thread
Insults everyone who is against him
He seems to think calling everyone "children" makes him seem old
He puts forward, lets call them, ideas that have little/no fact or evidence behind them
He's a complete idiot

Need I say more

And I have a suspiscion that I'm on his ignore list, woo!!!

Sure, you could ban Whatsup/Muscles plus any other aliases he has allegedly assumed, but aside from his annoying habit of using CAPS, don't you think he does more damage to theists arguments then any other member here ? Doesn't he reaffirm your position as a non-theist time and again ? And if you are a theist, don't you want to curl up in a fetal position each time you read his posts ?

I suspect the theists would be more interested in petitioning his banning. :D

Originally posted by Zero
[color=royalblue]Whatmuscles, I thought yyou were more imaginative in your arguments than that...
Who says we have no clue how life forms start? ........

Yup, Science have demonstrated how amibo acids exist. How did the amino acid came to life? Im sure dead cells are also composed of amino acids, so how did it came to life?
Did amino acis MAGICLY became mitochondria, cyoplasm, cell membrane, nucleus, etc. BY LUCK? Then prove it...

Originally posted by Zero
[
soon those amino acids began linking together...get the picture? ........

So you want me to use my imagination? Well, so thats how you found yur evidence, IMAGINATION, and you call that scientific? haaaa...I see, you want me to be delusional like you, well Im sorry but I cant do that....


Originally posted by Zero
[
Whatmuscles, are you on crack? LSD? E? Pot? Love? All of them?



right back at you....

Strange it is when someone must invent a sock puppet to have someone to agree with them. Kind of speaks for itself.

Should you seek banning of these individuals who then will you have to argue with? At least such provide entertainment in an otherwise lackluster and bleak enviroment where only the athetists make any kind of sense. It is evident from the responces of the community here that the whatsup-muscle individual is not to be taken seriously. Something I figured out sometime ago and then proceeded to ignore without the ignore function.

Originally posted by Cris
whatsup,

This is the power of religious propaganda. You have been deceived.

Lets talk about deception and lies...What about you Cris, you have not been decieved? Do i have evidence that you have been deceievd? yes I do...
Read your quote about Einstein....Einstein didnt say "Belief of a God is a childlike one", YOU ADDED THAT THERE YOURSELF...Thats a fact for I have read the exact quote...
And as quoted above, you still insist that"Knowing" someone's choice ahead means acting on that choice....
Then because you obviously lost the argument, then you insist that such as someone that intelligent cannot eexist "JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY SO", would you mind please show me evidence that God dont exist before MAKING A CLAIM, ok child....
If your lies isnt deception...Then I dont know what is...



Originally posted by Cris

The progression is very simple – as knowledge increases, ignorance declines. As ignorance declines so does superstition and hence religion.

LOL, you have some strange theory child...

What is superstition? Define that for me quick...Something we donot see? something we cannot understand? eexplain, I want to stick to this subject for a while........

Originally posted by Cris

What you are saying is that ignorance is superior and preferable to knowledge.

How am I saying that? Because I disproved your pathetic arguments? then your gonna go on falsely accusing me like always? Knowledge is power....

Originally posted by Cris

This plus all your other statements about atheism indicates your entire ignorance of atheism.


I took out what you are basically stating, ALL THAT I HAVE POSTED CONCERNING ATHEISM ARE THAT CAME OUT OF YOUR MOUTH AND MANY OTHERS HERE, so dont blaim me, blame yourself...

Actually I've seen that Einstein quote exactly as he has it posted.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey

It is a chaotic ordered system in a way. Not very suitable for laws.

How is biological's existence chaotic? Because you dont understand it? If it is so chaotic, then how can all the parts that make up a cell work together in harmony and exist? How is nature chaotic? Explain this kid....Because I killed a worm? Isnt that part of the cycle of life?

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey

supernatural is everything beyond natural. Science deals with the natural world. religion is about the supernatural world. Science is emperical and before you can make a statement about nature you have to have some emperical evidence in a theoretical framework. Religion is about belief and doesn't require anything but blind faith. In the end it is not so difficult to see the difference between the two, or ist it Mr W?

http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

Religion requires blind faith? LOL, thats not my understanding of many years in the game, is that al your deluded little mind learned about religion? Then I suggest you do a little more study than eating chips and watching southpark...

Yes there are empirical evidence of SOME sciences. Take biology and medical works for example, those are empirical evidence and SOME of its study is an absolute fact, because it IS EVIDENT...

About Biological and technological existence, if any of these are discovered, how does it take the creator of the universe out of science? How? Why would your human pride then assume that there is no God, is it because now you became your own God?

If something is out of what we can measure and physically observe, is it then out of science?? If so is it a myth?
Have you measured the blackhole? Have you physically observed black hole? Nope, therefore you cant call it science, is it then a myth?
Have you measured the force that gives us life? Have you physically observed it? Nope, therefore you cant call it science, is it then a myth?

Jan,

No, i don't think we will be able to create lifeforms from scratch at any time.

What do i think will prevent man from this goal?
Nothing will prevent man, because it cannot be done, it is out of the material domain.Is this your opinion or do you have something more substantial that will support that idea.

Are you saying that if we put all of the material components together of a cell, including all the active metabolic functions then it won’t be alive?

If yes then please explain why not and perhaps show how an alleged immaterial component can interact with a material structure.

whatsup,

Read your quote about Einstein....Einstein didnt say "Belief of a God is a childlike one", YOU ADDED THAT THERE YOURSELF...Thats a fact for I have read the exact quote... Then read his letters again. I gave you the link. It was quite clear.

whatsup,

LOL, you have some strange theory child...
I disproved your pathetic arguments?
Explain this kid.
is that al your deluded little mind learned.When you have learnt to be courteous and can demonstrate you are interested in a genuine debate then I’ll join you. However, I see little point spending time trying to explain my position when all you show is arrogance and condescension, and then just ignore my posts anyway.

Your significant ignorance of science and atheism also means you are incapable of engaging in meaningful debates in this arena.

I will follow wet1’s advice and put you on my ignore list.

Originally posted by Cris
whatsup,

When you have learnt to be courteous and can demonstrate you are interested in a genuine debate then I’ll join you.

My name calling is not the topic. This is an excuse because of the fact that you losed the argument b ut is too pridefull to admit it...


Originally posted by Cris

then just ignore my posts anyway.

You enjoy falsely accusing me, you have done this many times...I have responded to questions you have posted..

Originally posted by Cris

Your significant ignorance of science and atheism also means you are incapable of engaging in meaningful debates in this arena.

I will follow wet1’s advice and put you on my ignore list.

Once again you always falsely accuse me of ignorant about science, yet have not pointed out what are those sciences..

If you dont want to debate because your too illogic, and a compulsive liar, then maybe you should stop rambling and educate yourself first...
And afterwards you can debate with me, and if you have proven me wrong as I did to atheist many times, THEN I GIVE YOU A RIGHT TO CALL ME NAMES...I called you and many other atheist here names for a reason....

END..

whatsmuscles:


How is biological's existence chaotic? Because you dont understand it? If it is so chaotic, then how can all the parts that make up a cell work together in harmony and exist? How is nature chaotic? Explain this kid....Because I killed a worm? Isnt that part of the cycle of life?

Biology is a staggeringly complex system that appears to be near-chaos when observed, and NOBODY truely understands how it all works. Discoveries are made daily, knowledge is advanced a little more, but we've still got a ways to go before we can say that we have a rock-solid grasp on how it works.

I find that you're excellent practise when it comes to identifying logical fallacies and fundie ignorance. I count... one (kinda) ad hominem attack, one strawman, one distortion of readily-available fact, and one statement totally unrelated to the topic. How am I doing?

whatsmuscles, just because science can't explain something today doesn't mean we won't figure it out in 5, 10, 100 or 1000 years; we can't be so ignorant so as to ascribe anything we don't understand NOW to the supernatural. 1000 years ago was powered flight anything beyond the fevered dreams of madmen? If a peasant from 11th century England saw a jet airplane he'd think it was an angel, or (if it was flying at lower altitude) a dragon. A normal handgun would appear to that peasant to kill someone with no more than a thunderclap. Nowadays we take many things for granted that would have seemed like magic even a mere century ago.

So we don't have all the answers about the origins of life; does that automatically mean that God was responsible? Or does it merely represent a temporary gap in knowledge that is being researched as we speak? Think carefully about the lessons history has to offer before you answer that one half-cocked.


Religion requires blind faith? LOL, thats not my understanding of many years in the game, is that al your deluded little mind learned about religion? Then I suggest you do a little more study than eating chips and watching southpark...

Well... yeah, actually, it does require blind faith. You STILL have yet to provide, over the many threads I've seen you on, any one singular piece of empirical evidence that God actually exists. Simple statements of faith and calling your opposition 'idiotic' isn't evidence. The moment you can prove that your beliefs have actual physical/scientifically detectable proof, I and the other atheists here will stop calling it blind faith.


Yes there are empirical evidence of SOME sciences. Take biology and medical works for example, those are empirical evidence and SOME of its study is an absolute fact, because it IS EVIDENT...

If there isn't empirical evidence then it isn't science, unless said evidence is predicted to exist by an accepted theory. In that case, the idea is to find said evidence. If it fits into the framework and confirms the theory, great. If not, then the theory is revised to fit the contradictory evidence; such as it was with relativity, when Einstein was finally forced to accept the fact that the universe was in fact expanding, contrary to the static model he so vehemently defended.


About Biological and technological existence, if any of these are discovered, how does it take the creator of the universe out of science? How? Why would your human pride then assume that there is no God, is it because now you became your own God?

God never had a place in science in the first place; if it can't be observed or measured, then it's unusable as a factor. Science is about physical fact, period. The day physical evidence for God is discovered is the day that God becomes a factor in science.


If something is out of what we can measure and physically observe, is it then out of science?? If so is it a myth?
Have you measured the blackhole? Have you physically observed black hole? Nope, therefore you cant call it science, is it then a myth?

Black holes can't be directly observed because they don't put off any light (they suck it all in), but their effects have been observed many times, such as heavy x-ray broadcasts from the super-heated matter (that can also be directly viewed) that circles about the holes event horizon. Cygnus X-1 is one example. Vast amounts of matter from the star Cygnus are spiraling around a central point that isn't part of the star. We can't see the actual black hole, but it's effects are quite evident. Allow me to illustrate...

You're walking along and I shoot you with a gun. Nobody sees me. Just because nobody could see me do the deed doesn't make you any less dead; the effects of your being shot are just as obvious, regardless of whether somebody saw me or not. Would you claim that your death is a myth?


Have you measured the force that gives us life? Have you physically observed it? Nope, therefore you cant call it science, is it then a myth?

You make a false assumption, that being the fact that there is some quintessential 'lifeforce'. There may or may not be one, but until we find it it's no more than speculation on your part; that definately disqualifies it as science.

As for the existence of biological life, period, we already know how the most basic forms of it came about AND how it evolved into the simplest and most primitive bacteria. Go here (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html) to learn about how that worked.

Still with the same, oft-discredited arguements. How do you manage to walk erect, with the heavy weight of your thick skull to carry?

Originally posted by ThatJerk
whatsmuscles:
whatsmuscles, just because science can't explain something today doesn't mean we won't figure it out in 5, 10, 100 or 1000 years; we can't be so ignorant so as to ascribe anything we don't understand NOW to the supernatural. 1000 years ago was powered flight anything beyond the fevered dreams of madmen? If a peasant from 11th century England saw a jet airplane he'd think it was an angel, or (if it was flying at lower altitude) a dragon.

This statement isnt science, this is prophesy...Good luck with your psychic prediction......

Originally posted by ThatJerk

So we don't have all the answers about the origins of life; does that automatically mean that God was responsible? Or does it merely represent a temporary gap in knowledge that is being researched as we speak? Think carefully about the lessons history has to offer before you answer that one half-cocked..

We dont speculate and assume that God did it because we cant explain it. We speculate and assume God did it because Hee is evident in our life, and that intelligent act is the cause of ordered and functioning existence, thats a fact. You want to stress that this is false? Then prove it that something that is functioning and ordered can exist by "luck"....Since u cant provide evidence, then shut your hole...


Originally posted by ThatJerk

Well... yeah, actually, it does require blind faith. You STILL have yet to provide, over the many threads I've seen you on, any one singular piece of empirical evidence that God actually exists. Simple statements of faith and calling your opposition 'idiotic' isn't evidence. The moment you can prove that your beliefs have actual physical/scientifically detectable proof, I and the other atheists here will stop calling it blind faith.

God never had a place in science in the first place; if it can't be observed or measured, then it's unusable as a factor. Science is about physical fact, period. The day physical evidence for God is discovered is the day that God becomes a factor in science.[/


Healing of incurable cancers through prayers and faith. Which even Jesus addressed 2000 years ago before any sciences...This is one of CURRENT physical proofs of God...
Lady of Lourdes, Lady of Guadalupe, Fatima, all this documented miracles, etc..

You said you will believe if physical proof is given, well there it is, you reject it? Then again I have just pointed out earlier that even FACTUAL evidence requires faith, and you gave that example, so thank you....child..
Originally posted by ThatJerk

If there isn't empirical evidence then it isn't science, unless said evidence is predicted to exist by an accepted theory. In that case, the idea is to find said evidence. If it fits into the framework and confirms the theory, great. If not, then the theory is revised to fit the contradictory evidence; such as it was with relativity, when Einstein was finally forced to accept the fact that the universe was in fact expanding, contrary to the static model he so vehemently defended.

So there are imperical evidence of science, and there is also NOT emperical evidence. By admittance, there is NO ABSOLUTE in science, unless it is empirical, therefore SCIENCE REQUIRES FAITH...As you have mentioned it yourself.....


Originally posted by ThatJerk

We can't see the actual black hole, but it's effects are quite evident. Allow me to illustrate...

You're walking along and I shoot you with a gun. Nobody sees me. Just because nobody could see me do the deed doesn't make you any less dead; the effects of your being shot are just as obvious, regardless of whether somebody saw me or not. Would you claim that your death is a myth?

Well Thank you for providing ONE of MANY evidence for God...
I can claim the cause is a myth, but I cannot claim the effect is a myth because the effect is substancial..
Whats the difference between billions after billions of testimonies? Isnt that the effect of God's existence? The church, virtues, etc..


Originally posted by ThatJerk

You make a false assumption, that being the fact that there is some quintessential 'lifeforce'. There may or may not be one, but until we find it it's no more than speculation on your part; that definately disqualifies it as science.

So life is a speculation? You and I are a speculation? After all, life exist, and there is a force that brings someone to life...You can gather fresh human heart, brain, legs, ears, etc...But they donot come to life no matter how fresh the parts seems to be. Since there is a force that brings us life and that we cannot measure it, or physically detect it, is that force then a myth? ARE CREATURES A MYTH? ARE YOU A SPECULATION?


Originally posted by ThatJerk

Still with the same, oft-discredited arguements. How do you manage to walk erect, with the heavy weight of your thick skull to carry?

Speak for yourself....

Whatsupyall...unless you learn to be courteous, or even halfway discerning in using caps lock/shift key, there is no point in your further participation in sciforums.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Cris, I must offer my condolences in having such a person on your tail, and my respect in the way you react. I'm guessing you're an old, retired, 60-ish Oxford grad or something? Someone who knows a thing or two about life in general.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Zero,

an old, retired, 60-ishNah, I’m only 50. And retired? Nah, I’m not even tired yet.

Umm...why should whatsupyall be banned?

You don't like what he says? Such is life. I don't quite agree with him either, but that's no reason to ban him.

He shouldn't have to pay for your intolerance.

VA,

He shouldn't have to pay for your intolerance.I agree he shouldn’t be banned. But intolerance?

What this thread has shown is that there is considerable tolerance for the views of others including whatsup. But there is a point when certain behaviors do become intolerable and banning is appropriate. I think the poll here has tested our thoughts on tolerance of these issues and the discussion has been valuable to that end.

But thats no reason to Ban him (did I just stuck up for fucko?).
He has the right (free speech) and privilage (a computer) to
post whatever he wants.

Vakemp, we have tolerated him for way too long.

I wash my hands of it now, not gonna bother with him anymore. Why waste my time

Hey. Freedom of speech is in the constitution. Let him rant.


His writings aren't all that much goofier than some of the others.

All the "no God" folks seem to base everything they write on science and logic and all that. That stuff's necessity when learning about the world and the universe as we perceive it.

But it strikes me that trying to apply all that to the existence of a God that is supposed to be omnipotent and exists essentially beyond our power to prove is pretty silly.

If God does exist, i don't see why his infinitely broad vision should require him to do anything in ways we can suss out.

Seems pretty goofy to be essentially "thinking for God".

Drives me nuts when people in crisis say, "Oh, how could God let these terrible things happen?" Often hear people give the "rotten" state of the world as a reason that God couldn't exist. But, hey. No reason to believe that given his knowledge he doesn't have entirely different motivations and reasons for what goes on here.

Just suppose there's an incredibly important reason that's beyond us, for us to be allowed to do what we will and experience all kinds of nastiness while we're here. (something i happen to believe)

I'd say being the best person one could be and choosing to worship in some manner is at the very least a good insurance policy in case he's out there.

Freedom of speech only extends to the extent that you don't harm others or cause them inconvenience.

Whatsup here, has considerably degenerated the quality of the discussions here in the religion section. Therefore he has damaged something he has no right to. Read the posts carefully before you speak, Chromatose. You obviously haven't been here long enough to notice. There is a very good reason why even Cris, who is a very senior member here, has put him on the ignore list. And either wet1 or tiassa, I forget whom. All are senior members who have been here much much longer than you have, and therefore much more experience here.

Cris!? 50 and not tired!? Naaah... ...

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

The only exceptions to Freedom of speech are:

Defamation
Causing panic
Fighting words
Incitement to crime
Sedition
Obscenity

What-up-muscle's rantings does not fall into these categories.
He has the freedom to rant in his pea-brained manner.

Causing panic (intellectually)? Fighting words? Possibly defamation by calling every atheist delusional? I'd say yes it falls into those categories.

And read the contract when you signed up here.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

You have to look up the precise definition of these items as
they pertain to the constitution. I think your examples are nothing
more than rationalizations (no offense). As far as the 'contract'
is concerned... I have not read it. If it differers from the first
Ammendment then I suggest you take this case up with an
Admin. Either way, I would strongly disagree banning Fucko.

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__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Hateful, threatening. That fits. Not that I'm particularly vindictive, I'm just defending my opinion that there is sufficient reason to ban whatsupmuscles. I don't care if it happens or not; I just want to make it clear that should such an opportunity turn up I would support his ban. And thank you for you views, now I've seen more viewpoints. Which is really what I like. I've just seen too much of catsupmuscles'.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Zero, theoretically of course, what if we had seen enough of you, would it be fair to ban you simply cause we were sick of your views? I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just interested in how you reply.

*sharpens and oils scimitar*

I do not read other people's posts so superficially as to completely miss the point.
I do not get myself to look like such an idiot as to get ignored by major members of scifora.
I do not lambast other people or be downright rude, nor do I speak from a "I am superior and you know it" point of view.
I am not on crack like someone is.

It wouldn't be for me to say if it were fair to ban ME (of course I would say no), but I'd say there is a major difference here.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Trust me, I'm not comparing you to the person in question... And your points are all valid ones. But I think Whatsupyall has just as much right to say what he wants as we do to ignore him.

If whatsupyall is banned, it should not be for his thoughts, it should be for his 1) multiple registrations - this isn't allowed, is it? and 2) derogatory remarks directed specifically at certain members.

So we must remember to distinguish between what exactly whatsupmuscle would be banned for: not for his thoughts; I have seen many defend his freedom to speak - by the way, freedom to speak on private property? no. He can be banned at any moment, for any reason, just like all of us can. If he were banned, it would be for him not following the rules that every member supposedly must follow. This is not a question of rights.

At least, I hope derogatory remarks and multiple user registrations are against the rules.

Meh. This is getting too messy. I feel stupider every time I read one of his posts, so.....***clicks "Ignore".....ahhhhhh...that feels better.

I urge everyone else to give it a try ;).

One step ahead of you neb

You're missing out on good entertainment here folks...

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Originally posted by whatsupyall
How is biological's existence chaotic? Because you dont understand it? If it is so chaotic, then how can all the parts that make up a cell work together in harmony and exist? How is nature chaotic? Explain this kid....Because I killed a worm? Isnt that part of the cycle of life?



if you were aristotle you might believe in the cycle of life. Nothing ever changes. Unfortunately we have moved on. Life is all about change, although things might seem stationary when you look at it momentarily.

why is biological existence chaotic...nice but i don't think i said that. I mentioned that nature is chaotic and hence it is difficult to formulate laws.
http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cris
Is this your opinion or do you have something more substantial that will support that idea.

It has become my opinion, as for substance, read Bhagavad Gita As it is, then get back to me.

Are you saying that if we put all of the material components together of a cell, including all the active metabolic functions then it won’t be alive?

Have you done it?

Love

Jan Ardena.